Why not both?

1. Andino, 2b
2. Jones, cf
3. Markakis, rf
4. Vlad, dh
5. Reimold, 1b
6. Wieters, c
7. Reynolds, 3b
8. Pie, lf
9. Hardy, ss

With Lee out, we don't have anyone who can actually play first base, so Buck might as well just toss Reimold there since he's swinging the bat well.

One more thing: I put Reimold in between Vlad and Wieters to break up the epic slowness factor.

Let's go O's!

Pulling Reimold out of the lineup right now would not be wise.

The Good:

Tillman has never faced the A's. The element of surprise is on his side, especially with a struggling A's offense. Tillman is wild, so he is tough to figure out at first.

"Tillman has not allowed a home run in his last six starts, setting a career-high"

The Bad (first two innings):

"Of his 23 runs allowed in 2011, 15 of them have scored in the first two innings"

The Ugly (run support)

"In his nine starts combined this year, the Orioles have given Tillman 14 runs of support while he was in the game, with nine of those coming in his last three starts"

--
source: mlb.com

nb,

Agreed on breaking up Vlad and Matt.

Meso, Tillman has the element of surprise, however Matsui hits pitchers like Tillman well. If Tillman can handle Matsui, then Tillman could pitch a complete game and impress us all. I am not kidding!

Gio is a darn good pitcher for the A's, if the O's make him work and get to their bullpen early, the O's should win this handily! I am assuming Balfour isn't available tonight and Fuentes stinks. So we have that going for us tonight.

Man, I love these A's broadcasters. They've got nothing but great things to say about the O's. A lot of respect for Buck, the Oriole way of the past, O's greats and stuff like that. They even mentioned that there were O's fans chanting 'O' during the National anthem. "That's how you know" they said, there are O's fans here. I love it!

Uh ... oh ... this Geo dude, not so phithy all of a sudden.

Do the Os have a hit this year with the bases loaded and no outs ? They need to avoid that situation at all costs.

Chris Tillman pitches the same against everyone. 5 innings, 100+ pitches. guys on base all the time.pitching from behind.
I'm really wondering what Buck and Connor are going to do with him if this continues.

Hang on tight Jim!

I think the second time around Gonzales is gonna get rocked. He is good though, I'll give him that. The O's just have to layoff that curveball and sit on the fastball. He'll hang some.

Tillman is going to have to pitch inside to the lefties. Wieters needs to see that. He's getting hit to left field a lot.

50 pitches in 2 innings against the worst offense in baseball in a pitchers's park as big as the moon tells me all that I need to know about him at this point. He's learning how to pitch in the major leagues with an underdeveloped repetoire of pitches, led by near 0 command of his fastball.

It is pretty amazing that this stretch is the best of Tillman's career so far and no O's fan feels any better about him than they did before.

@Jon,

I still like him! (Tillman)

Alright ... someone please text this to the O's dugout. Just an arm-chair hitting coach here, but here is what I'm seeing.

Before Gonzales throws a curve ball, he pauses a bit longer before his windup. He also turns more of his right shoulder toward the hitter, trying to hide the ball better. George Sherill like almost. When he does that, just lay off. He's lost command of his fastball and is relying more on the slow stuff. If the O's force him to throw fastballs, they will have success against him. If it's low let it go. If it's high let it fly. Simple philosophy, n'est pas?

I think that Tillman has a chance to be more than a serviceable number 5 starter, and Connor and Buck are going to give him a chance to at least be that
That's the right move at this point. He's just tough to watch. I can't imagine what it's like sitting in the dugout..

Fiddlesticks! So much for that complete game... ughhh. He needs a pitch that induces ground balls, not ones that are foul! Well at least Simon is coming into the ball game

squirrel, I don't hate tillman, nor do I root against him. tillman has averaged 5 innings a start in his major league career. he is up here because connor thinks he can get him on the right track, and the Os are shorthanded. Suffice it to say that it is a terrific struggle for tillman to get 15 outs against major league hitters right now.
I would have to rate tonight's performance as a failure to show that he is the guy that should stay when Matusz gets back.

It's a tough call on who Matusz should replace. I'd lean toward moving Bergesen because Tillman at least seems to have more upside but really, you can't go wrong ridding the team of either right now. Neither is helping the team very much.

jim66
And Bergs is doing better?
At least Tillman makes it 5innings with only 1-3 runs allowed. At this point, he is doing better than Bergs.

its a toss up, and the way either of them is throwing the ball, who cares. tillman stinks right now. he has no out pitch, and he's killing the bullpen. I don't know, kinda tough to show up in ST and the pitching coach tells you that you're doing it all wrong, so let's fix it on the fly.
Good luck with that.
how can you not be disappointed in this performance against a simply horrific offense of the As? What good can you take from this mess? Absolutely nothing, say it again..

Agreed. He did lousy tonight but still only gave up 1 earned run. Think about it: he struggled tonight and gave up only 1 ER! If Simon did his job and pitched 2-3 shutout innings, its still a one run game. Bergs on the other hand, when he is off, gives up 5-6runs.

Agree with you that he has no out pitch, yet. I give him room due to his age. In time he MIGHT learn to pitch better and more wisely.

Neither of them are set for the pen but Till always gives up runs right away.

I like both Tillman and Bergy . They both are young and have upsides . Since they both run up pitch counts early and barely crack 5 innings or so .
When Matusz returns , Bergy , if he has another stinker saturday , will sent to the Pen . Bergy and Tillman could benefit themselves and Os if they both work in Pen .
Buck , please dont wait too long for Mike Gonzales . if he cant the find the plate anymore , the Os should eat his deal and release him .

Disappointed Os lost tonight , lets hope Os bats wake up tommorrow .

I have small story to share . Today my wife and I visited the Babe Ruth museum on Emory Street . We both enjoyed the exhibit displays there , along with the A/C ! . It was almost closing time when my wife overhead someone saying he is owner of Padres . The usher let him through . Being curious , I approached this man and introduced myself . The man said his name is Jeff Moorad . When we left that museum , we asked each other " why would Padres owner be in Baltimore ?" . Then our iPhones showed that Nats are hosting Padres this weekend . I was excited to cross paths with real Baseball owner .

Go Os !

I have small story to share . Today my wife and I visited the Babe Ruth museum on Emory Street . We both enjoyed the exhibit displays there , along with the A/C ! . It was almost closing time when my wife overhead someone saying he is owner of Padres . The usher let him through . Being curious , I approached this man and introduced myself . The man said his name is Jeff Moorad . When we left that museum , we asked each other " why would Padres owner be in Baltimore ?" . Then our iPhones showed that Nats are hosting Padres this weekend . I was excited to cross paths with real Baseball owner .

Go Os !

Oh well the orioles just came up short on friday. We could probably expected that considering they just came off of a 12 inning game in 90 degree heat the day before and then had to fly cross country to play a game.When we win we tend to over look things because after all we try and stay as postive as we can when we can. However we have now played 49 games and that equates to almost 1/3 rd of a season and i am still waiting for sombody other then jeff z to tell me about the difficuties that Nick M is having.

See i have been a negative poster in regards to Nick for almost 2 years now and i don't expect to change until i am proven wrong.See Nick is the highest paid oriole at 11.000.00 per and ranks either last in slugging % and obp or next to last of any starter on the team.He has only 4 doubles so far yes that's right i said 4 doubles and that was a area that was is saving grace . In addition to those futile stats he only has 4 hr's and 15 rbi's for the year. If you take that out for the year he will have less production then last year and that was totally unacceptable.

What bothers me about all of this is the fact that everybody still says he will get on track and eventually get back to where he is suppose to be.My problem is i don't know where he is suppose to be , last year 12 hr's and 60 rbi's or should he be somewhere higher. See people there is something drastically wrong with Nick M and no matter how hard his fan club keeps waiting and hoping nothing really changes except the continued underperformance of a 27 year old in his prime .

..............................................................................................
Pete's reply: There's no question that Nick is undersachieving and it's a head-scratcher. Last year, you could chalk it up to how totally awful the whole team was, but this year is harder to explain. But it's not like we're ignoring that. You say only Jeff Z has been pointing it out. Jeff Z is the main baseball guy in town, so the main baseball guy in town has been all over it.
..

I swear the O's are the worst bases-loaded team I've ever seen. Getting three men on is almost like a curse to them. They should have chased Gio early.

Hey, why does Markakis' performance bother you so much, to the point where your day is not complete until you beat it to death?

Ok, now that you've exposed some supposed plot to cover it all up, so what? The dog has caught the bus...what now Fido? You won't be happy until you run him out of town? Until we all acknowledge you?

Markakis will play his 158 games and he is where he is at the end of it all...

Damn, let it go already...

How long is the Reynolds experiment going to continue? He is one of the most erratic defensive players I have ever seen. Great defensive play followed by an error on a routine play and vice versa. Draws walks now only because he gets fooled on the pitch. If the Orioles had Adrian Gonalez at first and Adrian Beltre at third we would be in first place on the way to at least the wild card.

But with Andy and his nephew, you get the left overs. The offense is killing some very good pitching this year. As far as Tillman is concerned , he simply doesn't have a good enough fastball do be a consistent winner in the majors. He doesn't trust it when he needs to throw it for strikes, thus he nibbles and throws 100 pitches in 5 innings. It's as simple as that. he will be the odd man out when Matusz returns.

I have never really been concerned about Nick Markakis. He made some nice defensive plays last night to keep it close. Our offense smelled. We couldn't knock out Gio when he was staggering. Vlad did a nice job setting the table in the second with a lead off single. I want to reiterate that I don't like seeing Vlad lead off, however he is the most versatile hitter on the Orioles and he does his job well! When you have bases loaded and no out and get only one run that doesn't bode well for the rest of the game. What I am most disturbed about is not Nick Markakis, it's this line that I read on the School of Roch this morning:

Double-A Bowie left-hander Pedro Viola was rushed to Oakland. Pedro Viola is awful and Mike Gonzalez is terrible!
Why is Mike Gonzalez still with the O's? I don't care what he's owed! He stinks, he is the weakest link! Goodbye!
I don't know who makes this decisions, but if someone in the Orioles organization thinks that Pedro Viola is the answer, they have another thought coming. Sorry, O's fans blog response is a lot longer, but I am fired up again and for all the wrong reasons! Again!

Chris Tillman needs to go down to the minors for a month and work on a ground ball pitch and then comeback to us! I can't believe I am saying this after defending him several times during the season. As for Simon he is either a closer (1 inning or maybe a starter). He is not a middle relief/ long man. He did good with that bases loaded jam, he didn't do good with giving up 3 runs.
Maybe he needs pressure to do well. I just don't know. Lastly, I am aggravated that the O's signed "The Duke" instead of Chris Capuano! I really think Capuano could have helped the O's. He did a nice job against the Sillies last night. Why the O's never took a look at him is beyond me? Maybe because of the same reason they are recalling Viola. Incompetence! Amazing, how surly I am after the end of a 5 game winning streak and a sweep of the Royals.

jim66,

Who died and made you the blog proctor? bob is right and has been right about Markakis. So you don't like hearing it. What else is eating at you this morning?

Gil. I agree that the corner IF's Andy gave us are less than stellar. Anyone could see that Lee is breaking down physically and that Reynolds would be lucky to hit more than .220. On the other hand, I'm not sure the premium free agents see Baltimore as prime destination just yet, even if King Peter coughed up major $$$.
The so-called 2nd tier.choices like Dunn and Laroche have also struggled, which to me, shows that it's far better to build from within. Unfortunately, the cupboard seems bare down on the farm, unless Synder turns it up as Bell doesn't seem to be the answer. I guess the only hope is to consider trading a young arm or 2 for some corner IF 'pop'..
I'm with you on Tillman and question where he's going at this point. Contrast that to Kyle Drabek-young Jays starter who I watch once in awhile. He looks like the real deal as he can pitch through the rough spots-case in point,got the W last night and went 7 despite a 32 pitch inning. He has better stuff than Tillman and excudes more confidence.
In any event, once our starters all get healthy, maybe there will be some good old fashioned competition for roster spots. Hopefully, we will then see less 5 inning outings which really taxes our already thin 'pen. If Tillman and Bergeson can't cut it, then it's time to either put them in ling relief or ship them to the minors.
Personally, I still think they have a bigger upside than a guy like Gonzalez who is clearly useless at this point and I have to wonder why we haven't released him by now. Why not eat the remaining 4 mill-we did it with others like Gibbons/Atkins etc?

TerryP,

I don't think Andy made Beltre an offer, at least not one that was made public. I believe Gonzalez would have considered coming here, but Boston wanted him more than Andy was willing to get PA to shell out. You may be right, but it's a sad commentary on the Macphails that after four years good FA players still don't want to get involved with this organization.

I have been waiting like everyone else to see that low and mid 90's fastball Tillman was reputed to have when we got him from Seattle. I am now convinced it never existed. Some scouts didn't know how to adjust the radar gun. Bergesen throws harder than he does. It won't serve any purpose to send Tillman down again unless he can add another 5 mph to his repertoire. Long relief may his best option.

Jim 66 i will never let it go, it something that shouldn't continue to be pushed aside You are not looking at a ball player that has had a 10 day slump, i wish it was that easy. You are looking at a ballplayer that is the 2nd year of a huge contract extension that is having major difficulties getting himself straightened out.Are we going to wait another entire year without this problem being addressed. His he having trouble seeing the ball, his he injured and not telling anybody,or has he just lost his competetive edge 1 since he got that huge contract 2 since he got married and had 2 babies but rest assured regardless of how fans and guy's like you jim try and protect and overlook all of this THE ISSUE IS NOT GOING AWAY??

Hey Bob,

You know what the funny thing about you is? You're never willing to admit when you're wrong.

Sure now we're going after Markakis and Roberts. they're the easy targets this month.

Funny though. I remember you being the number 1 proponent of throwing Matt Wieters out of town about 6 weeks ago. What happened about that? Haven't heard about that in a while? How's Matt been doing, Bob?

Best defensive catcher in MLB? Check!
Best young catcher in the game with two functional legs? Check!

As for Nick, the man hit .297 w/ a .370 OBP and 45 2B's last year.

He did not have a bad year! RBI is a meaningless state. Meaningless.

As for April, he had a terrible April. Big deal, Mark Texeiera generally hits about .200 in April every year. Doesn't make him a bad player.

This month, Markakis is hitting .313 w/ a .378 OBP. He's already scored 14 runs, which would basically put him on pace to score 100 runs over the course of a season.

Guess what? In this lineup, Nick isn't a run production guy. He's a table setter and a run SCORER!

And, in the second half of this young season he's doing it at a premiere level.

Look at the numbers, man. Then take a deep breath and enjoy the beautiful day.

i wish it was as simple as a guy like you coming on and trying to discredit me. Now nick is just a table setter, i have heard it all,11,000,00 Gil to be a table setter. Do you realize this whole town is under some spell when it come to defending Nick. It's absolutely crazy how a person can underachieve as bad as him and have people still looking at anything to defend him. If he is still getting these people to defend him i just can't imagine what it will take or how truly bad he will have to get before some sanity takes over. Why he could finish the year with 10 hr's and 45 rbi's and they will still come on here and tell me what a great player he is. Nick m is barely a serviceable ball player right now barely.

Here we go again. The O's win 5 and lose 1 and everyone is ready to jump ship. For realz players? C'mon guys. What did you expect a 50 game winning streak? Adjust your expectations accordingly. The team is still in it. That pitching they faced last night was just philthy. Tip your cap and move on.

Bob,

the real peoblem with you is this isn't a Markakis thing, or a Wieters thing, or a Roberts thing, or anybody in particular. It's about whatever player you feel like you can pick on. im sorry man, I just don't get it. It's like there's no potential for joy in this game for you. You've been a fan of this game for longer than me, so I feel like I shouldn't have to say this, but somebody on the team is always going to be slumping. It's a mathematical certainty. There's no need to make the same arguments day in and day out until someone pats you on the back, and tells you you're right. It's not going to happen.

but, as for markakis, you're treating his contract like he's worse than barru zito and vernon wells combined. I'm sorry man, but it's just not that bad. It's not. So long as markais keeps getting on base close to 40% of the time there is no way that you'll be able to convince me or anyone else on my side of the debate that Nick is a bust. The contract is not that big and he's not that bad of a player.

but, all that being said, please respond to this fact: nick is hitting .313 this month w/ a .378 OBP. That's half the season. If he's as dead as you say, how is that possible? Please tell me.

if this continues, if Nick hits .300 again, what will you say? Will you just stop writing about it and move on to the new biggest slump? Will Nick be your next Wieters? Life is easy when all you have to do is ignore facts and pick on the biggest slump.

Bob,

the real peoblem with you is this isn't a Markakis thing, or a Wieters thing, or a Roberts thing, or anybody in particular. It's about whatever player you feel like you can pick on. im sorry man, I just don't get it. It's like there's no potential for joy in this game for you. You've been a fan of this game for longer than me, so I feel like I shouldn't have to say this, but somebody on the team is always going to be slumping. It's a mathematical certainty. There's no need to make the same arguments day in and day out until someone pats you on the back, and tells you you're right. It's not going to happen.

but, as for markakis, you're treating his contract like he's worse than barru zito and vernon wells combined. I'm sorry man, but it's just not that bad. It's not. So long as markais keeps getting on base close to 40% of the time there is no way that you'll be able to convince me or anyone else on my side of the debate that Nick is a bust. The contract is not that big and he's not that bad of a player.

but, all that being said, please respond to this fact: nick is hitting .313 this month w/ a .378 OBP. That's half the season. If he's as dead as you say, how is that possible? Please tell me.

if this continues, if Nick hits .300 again, what will you say? Will you just stop writing about it and move on to the new biggest slump? Will Nick be your next Wieters? Life is easy when all you have to do is ignore facts and pick on the biggest slump.

Gil;

I don't see any crtisizm by Jim66 of blancione's point about Nick's offensive production this year. All he seems to be asking is why it is such a fixation. On that score I'll second the question.

You're only partly right when you say that blancione "has been right about Markakis." He was quite wrong when he started digging into him last year when his batting line was 297/370/436 with an 806 OPS.

Tell me Gil, which one of those numbers wasn't signifigantly above league avg last year? Check for yourself if you like, but I'll save you the trouble. His BA was 30 points better than avg, his ob% was 35 points higher, his SL% was about 25 points higher and his OPS was about 50 points higher.

And for that, blancione was on Nick like a bad smell. There was simply no justification for it.

Ahhhhh. Is that a breath of fresh air at 12:35 I'm feeling?

First off dan if it was just about last year like pete's response to my first posting we wouldn't be having this converstion right now. This is about a continued pattern that once again has cropped up after 49 games , and that my friend is a complete lack of power and production. Dan please tell me are you really satisfied with him hitting 10 hr's and knocking in between 45 and 50 rbi's for the entire year.if you answered yes then we respectfully will continue to agree to disagree,

Enzo my friend you are taking the luxury of talking about one month of a batting average and obp, but its very unfortunate that you aren't worried about his complete lack of production in hr's and rbi's enzo i truly believe you are very astute when taking sports but please due you think the orioles are satisfied with the job he is doing. You can bet everything that is dear to your heart that privately the orioles regret those 2 contract extensions to both your 2 golden boy's if you think not then we really don't have any more to say. We have a 34 roberts that can't stay on the field and a outfielder in the prime of his career that has a total of 8 count them 8 extra base hits and you have the nerve to tell me he has scored 14 times this month. PLEASE GIVE ME A BREAK

dan qz,

I have checked. I think what bob is saying is that since Nick signed the big contract his power and rbi numbers have dropped considerably. He had 18 home runs and drove in 101 runs in 2009 with about the same batting average as last year's 12 and 60. He is on about the same pace this year as last. He is being paid as an elite player and those are not elite player numbers. You can spin the numbers any way you want but if you are being paid what Nick is being paid, you should be driving in runs. I am not from the ''money ball" school of stats. Home runs and RBi's matter more to me than the rest, that's just me. I think many of us expected Nick to be a consistent 25 hr, 100 rbi, .300 hitter and it's going the other way with the first two. I like nick. I think he is an above average defensive player and a good hitter. But he is not the great player that many expected him to be. As I have said I'll take the numbers he is putting up. But if that's all there is he is clearly over paid and on that issue I agree with bob.

Personally I think he is concealing an injury that is inhibiting his ability to drive the ball. It could be the large cyst on his wrist.

Gil;

1/ Elite players get salaries of 18-25 million a year. The 11 million that Nick gets is hardly elite money.

2/ BA, OB%, SL% and OPS aren't some exotic stats from the ''money ball" school of stats. They are common baseline numbers by which all hitters are judged.

3/ How does a drop of 6 HRs from last year account for a drop of 40 RBIs? They wouldn't account for more than about 8 or 9. Certainly not 40.

4/ Given that his BA and OB% were up to his usual standards, there had to be something else at work other than HRs to explain the drop. How about what Kevin Gregg had to say about it, that the word last year to Toronto pitchers was to not let Nick beat you and don't pitch to him?

Let me propose a trade. You give me your average guy who hit 6 more HRs, and I'll give you my guy who is better defensively, runs faster, hits for way better average, gets on a lot more, takes about 20 more walks than your guy and who gets about 20 more hits including 15 doubles.

Seriously Gil. Tell me you wouldn't make that trade in a heart beat.

Gil, listen this isn't about whether they think nick is that good it's about posters like paulie, dan z, enzio and the many many more that don't like my negativity.See when you take my stance against a so called hero people will drum up any stat they can to justify there case. What i post as unproductive stats, they dive in with any stat that will counter what i say. You say he is being paid elite money danz comes back and tells you elite players make 18 to 25 so again this argument isn't about what nick does or doesn't do it's to argue anything that i say. There has been enough of a negative sample over 1/1/2 years to tell you that there is something drastically wrong with nick but people for there own reasons still refuse to agree.Maybe if i wasn't the one saying this the end result mighjt be different.

While I would agree that 11 million may not be "elite player" money I think at the end of the day it is still fair to expect "more bang for the buck" from a player that I believe was envisioned as being the number three hitter in the lineup.

"this isn't about whether they think nick is that good it's about posters like paulie, dan z, enzio and the many many more that don't like my negativity."

That's right, Bob, it's all about you. A bit tired of posters like you who try to make this about yourselves. I thought we got right of that one guy...

Are you dissatisfied with his contract or his production or both? His production is above average for a right fielder, and his defense is probably Top 5 in AL. Is $11M too much? Yes, but not by that much. If he signs elsewhere, he commands a 3-year $25-$30M deal, and maybe more Just look at JD Drew $14M, Abreu $9M, Jason Bay $18M... there's a lot of overpaid RF's.

So we overspent on a guy who should be with the O's for a long time. I'm just imagining the uproar if the O's don't sign him to that contract. "Andy's cheap" "they let him get away" "typical cheap PA". Can't have it both ways dude.

dan qz,

As I said, unless you are a table setter you should be driving in runs, and spin it like you want, Nick is just not getting it done. This is the second year in a row in his power shortage. Nick was paid as an elite player as far as the Orioles were concerned when he signed the contract. Angelos will never pay anyone 18 to 25 million a year.

Ill take a guy right now who hits 25 home runs, drives in 100 runs, hits .265 and is an average defensive right fielder over Markakis in a heartbeat. That's what we thought Nick would be. Corner infielders and outfielders are expected to hit with power and drive in runs. Nick is just not getting it done, and this year he is better protected in the lineup.

BA and OPS are not the primary enumerators for someone who is supposed to be driving in runs, in my opinion. Now they are if you are a table setter or a leadoff man. I don't think that's what Nick was paid for.

Markakis is the only one who can settle the argument by performing like he did in 2007, 2008, and 2009 from a HR and RBI standpoint. If he can't then he was overpaid as a number 3 hitter.

Maybe he should be batting leadoff. That's the type of hitter he is evolving into, but he would have to steal a lot more bases.

Bob,

I do understand where you are coming from. Despite my dogged attempts other wise, I do "get it". That is to say, when Nick comes to the plate I'm not thinking "oh heck yeah!" more like "come on Nick." So I do understand the basis for your comments. Sure, who wouldn't want Nick to be a "threat" in the sense of high-light reel material (speed or power). I'm not trying to say he's beyond reproach or criticism either.

Nick didn't drive in 100 last year?...RBI are largely about the "I" in RBI. As in, last years club lacked any semblance of a #1 or #2 hitter.

Contrast his 60 RBI with his .338 AVG w/ RISP stat. I beleive that only re-enforces the argument that "he" was not the issue with the RBI.

As for his contract and his value based on the value of the contract:

1. It's still early in the contract to conclude "not worth it".

2. He's also still in the early prime of his career at 27, and the contract takes him to 30. That's good spending. A 26 year old that's locked up till 30 w/ option for 31 year old.

3. 2011 is not over, so stating it's "2 years" is a bit of a push.

4. Based on his past performance, and track record of such, is it not prudent to have a default position of "Nick is who we thought he was" vs. "he's not he claimed to be".

I do "get it"...I'm just not convinced the body of evidence suggests he's "not worth it" yet. Time will tell. But it'd sure be nice to get back to those days when it was "Nick's at the plate, heck yeah!"

dan qz,

Of course I was being sarcastic about Nick being a leadoff hitter. He is not prototypical of a leadoff man from a speed standpoint and he has at least a little more pop. But I think he could fill in there nicely on occasion.

But heck, I'd even take a .245 hitter, average defense, who could drive in 100 runs and hit 25 hr's in right field over Nick at this point.

We just differ on what we see his role on this team to be, but I can see your points.

Markakis Batting avg. .259. hrs. 4. rbi. 15
I don't care what other stats. you use if Nick doesn't improve on the above he is not during his job.

Gil,last post of the day. I want to share something with everybody that opposes me in regards to Nick. I started working for The Social Security Administration in 1971 at 2.55 a hour and when i retired in 2006 i made 66.oo a hour. I imagine that everybody that differs with my views regarding nick probably all have career's doing something.The point that i am going to try and make is that my career wasn't based on 4 years of production at a high level rather then a continueous level of excellent performance. While nick performed at a high level that got him that extension that he truly deserved the last 1 1/2 years have been enough of a sample that has demostrated a drastic tail off in the categories that the orioles envisioned for him . I get the arguments that everybody throws at me but the reality of this situation is that it's beyond obvious that nick has underperformed horribly. I can't imagine me keeping my job or continuing receiving raises if i didn't constantly perform.

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Pete's reply: I don't think anybody would deny Nick is underachieving right now. I'm sure Nick would be the first to agree. I'm guessing he turns it around at some point, but it certainly is cause for concern.

Now, on to the other subject. The Social Security Administration is paying people $66 an hour. I've been paying THEM for 33 years (and counting), and when I'm 65 I'll get the equivalent of a 40-hour paycheck at about $15 per hour. So, go to your window, open it up and stick your head out and scream "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore."

bob, I understand perfectly. As a matter of fact, I supported the contracts given To Nick and Brian at the time, although I had my concerns about Roberts seeming lack of hustle sometimes Those two were supposed to be the cornerstones of the team for the years following the extensions. Paulie and dan qz are right when they say I would have one of the first to get all over Andy if he had let them hit the market

I lost a lot of respect for Brian when he showed up at spring training and dropped the bombshell about his back. That, now coupled with the concussions could mean that his career is about over. Nick is in his prime right now and should be putting up the numbers of his life. Something is wrong there and it will eventually come out.

It doesn't make anybody a poor fan to be disappointed in how things have worked out with both of them.

I think and I would like to be wrong, but the time that Brian Roberts to be considered a cornerstone of the team has passed. I believe the issues with his back and now the concussion symptoms may be to much to overcome in the long run especially the concerns with the back.

I think for better or worse it is Jones, Weiters, Britton, Arrieta and Matusz that are the potential cornerstones and hopefully as they progress team management will not let them slip away.

......I don't know ....I know I shouldn't ....I mean he insulted me cursed at me, lied all the time, threatened to meet me at imaginary libraries and beat me up....and yet.....maybe it's me.....but i kinda miss him....sorry...i know it's not right....there is a certain civility now that is so much better, and yet......

as far as Nick goes, I guess there always has to be something for people to complain about...simply put he had a down (not "horrible" by any stretch) year last year and this year doesn't look to great so far....we have to stress "so far" There is just so much baseball left. This discussion may have more merit in August than it does now. He's still one of the best defensive right fielders in the games and runs prevented are as good as runs driven in.
I do see the similarities from the same guys who were ripping Weiters at the begining of the year have now turned to Nick.
I'll say this hypothetical. If Nick puts up last years numbers and he is our "biggest problem"....then we are in the playoffs.

For the record...After comparing all right fielders over the last 10 years I have concluded scientifically that Nick is overpaid by $872, 963 dollars and 23 cents per year. But the first year he outperformed his contract by $228,881 dollars and 34 cents so we may get even this year if he picks it up or we could be out some more money.

Macphail should be fired for this waste of money.

here's my last post on this today:

but, before I start I'd like to say how nice it's been to be part of an intense, yet very civil, discussion on this blog. It's been a long time since I remember this being possible and that's why I stopped being a regular poster many months ago.

anyway, I just cannot agree that Nick had the terrible year last year that is being alleged. I cannot. .297 avg. High OBP. AVG w/ RISP of .338. It cannot be any more obvious that RBI is a deply flawed stat.

yes, we would have liked to see him trade 7 or 8 of those 2B's for homers. But other than that his season was very very above average. It just was not a bust. And compared to his contract, which is not outlandish, any statement that Markakis is a huge dissapointment is completely blown out of proportion.

as for this year, if I'm working on too small a sample size, fair enough, but so are you. I'm using this month to say the ship is rigting itself. But you're using the previous month to say the ship is already sunk. At least I'm using the more recent data. And when you take away the, frankly outlandish argument that Nick had a terrible year last year, it makes it pretty tough to argue that Markakis is as bad as you say.

anyway, I'll never go so far as to say that I don't want a little more out of Nick. Of course everyone does. But that's not the point of thid argument. The point is that your comments go too far. He's just not the bust that you are claiming and I will continue to defend him so long as you maintain this argument.

smitty,

I'd like to see your backup to those precise numbers :)

Don't put me in the group that says Nick is terrible. I'm just disappointed. I just expected more, and I think Andy and PA did too. I don't think they gave him 11 mil to go 12 and 60 and follow it up with what appaers to be similar numbers at this point. .

Macphail should be fired just.... cuz. But you know what? Just like you seem to miss wayne, I would certainly miss the opportunity to point out on a daily basis just how bad Andy's and his kin's four years have been. It's cathartic. I promise to stop as soon as the Orioles finish over .500. Even if they go 82 and 80. Not the pennant. Not the wild card. Just a winning record. Out of last place. Third or fourth would do.

Pete we paid into our own retirement system at 7% per pay or every two weeks. Not everybody made that kind of money but working for the feds back then was a great job. Now with the way the economy is the feds are going to start getting hit very hard, in fact things have already started. Pay freeze for the next 2 years maybe longer, increased contribution to the retirement system,proposed changed to the calulation of your retirement from the high 3 to the high 5, increase cost share of health insurance etc etc. Don't get me wrong pete i worked there 35 years and have a great retirement of 70% of my highest 3 year salary. One of the right things i did in my life. Pete you said at the beginning of your reply that nobody would argue the fact that nick has underachieved, please take a good look of how many that disagree with that statement.

Science Gil ....never argue with science..

I will miss you too in August when you take your self made sabbatical when the O's are not 20 games out.

I may even start a campain called
"Lets GET Gil To Post Again After Only Two Weeks"
LGGTPAAOTW

you say cathartic i say cathetic lets call the whole thing off

P.S I have it on good authority that Andy's 6 year old niece recommended Garrett Atkins last year. And she wouldn't take no for an answer...

She would just scream "Gawwet Gawwet me want Gawwet" over and over, so it's not just the nephews you need to be worried about. Word in the warehouse is she really thinks "Gonzawes" is nice cause he gives her Smarties alot so now AM may give him a midseason extension but only for 3.5 mil. Watch for it.

Pay freezes at $66.00 an hour while working at S.S? How long before they are eating dog food at that rate?
Not that theres anything wrong with working for SS....

Pay freezes at $66.00 an hour while working at S.S? How long before they are eating dog food at that rate?
Not that theres anything wrong with working for SS....

Just my 2 cents - nick is underperforming, but plenty of time left in the season to make up for it. I hope he does.

Anything the O's get out of Roberts at this point is a bonus. He had a great run, in fact, I think he was underrated, but the injuries and age are not a good mix.

smitty - are you serious? too funny.

Looking forward to some fun tonight.

Go O's

blancione;

Let me clarify something. My argument with you is not about what Nick is doing this year. Of course he has been below standard so far, both by his own standards and those of an average hitter.

My post was about you getting on Nick LAST YEAR when his numbers were substantially above average.

As far as you saying to Gil, "What i post as unproductive stats, they dive in with any stat that will counter what i say"; batting average, on base percentage and slugging percentage are hardly some kind of obscure or exotic stats. They are the most basic numbers upon which all hitters are judged. If you don't understand that then you don't know much about baseball.

As far as your complaint about my reference to the money Nick makes, how can you fault me for addressing a point you have made many times. If you don't want me to respond to the money issue, then stop raising it yourself.

The simple point is that this year you have a valid point, but you had absolutely NONE AT ALL last year when you were all over Nick like a bad smell.

smitty,

I have heard from a very reliable source {Tom Davis's second cousin's brother in law} that Andy's nephew picks his FA and trade selections via an Oijia board. The night it spelled out A T K I N S it is said that dishes flew off the shelves. Actually the spirits were referring to At Kin's, meaning Lee was at his Uncle Andy's house.

The night it spelled out R E Y N O L D S the spirits were referring to Burt as he has asked them for help with his bad hair weave.

From Yahoo's game preview:
"Nick Markakis singled to extend his hitting streak to 12 games, and Vladimir Guerrero also has a 12-game hit streak.
Markakis has hit .360 during that stretch, and .340 his last 13 games versus Oakland."

Since we're all working from a small sample size anyway. Looks to me like Nick's heating up.
Regarding the HR/RBI argument. This isn't the best comparison, but Tony Gwynn always pops into my head when I hear this argument. Gwynn didn't have a lot of either except for his outlier seasons. Not that Kakes is as good a hitter as Gwynn, but the point is that homers and ribbies don't always tell the complete story.

Gwynn's 162 game averages: .336 AVG, 209 hits, 36 2B, 9 HR, 76 RBI, .847 OPS

Markakis' 162 game averages: .295 AVG, 183 hits, 41 2B, 18 HR, 85 RBI, .821 OPS.

You can parse those stats into an argument for either, right? That is, if you only base it on home runs and runs batted in. Otherwise, taking in all the numbers, you can see who the all-star is.

Glad I haven't been around for the bi-weekly Nick Markakis Round Table Dicussion, or NMRTD, as we should start calling it.

Can we just leave this one alone for a couple of months?

We all know who thinks that Nick is a waste of $11MM because of his drastic dips in home runs and rbi and we all know who thinks that Nick is still a good player based on every other statistic.

After several dozen of these NMRTDs, we should all know that no one is going to change anyone's mind. We've had a nice run of civility here over the past couple of days, so let's just quit while we're ahead.

In other news:

I'm 0-1 in my prediction for this series with the A's. As usual, inconsistency seems to be this team's best friend. It would be nice if they could rip off another nice streak and get themselves a few games over .500, wouldn't it?

Let's break the trend against lefties tonight. A big win for the O's, and a big night for Jones, Markakis, Vlad and Reimold would be fun.

Let's go O's!

Agent Orange;

Here's another comparison. Nick has hit 313 this month with a 378 on base percentage, numbers which apparently still mean he's an overpaid bum because he's not hitting HRs.

Here's another guy who hit 328 for his career with a 393 on base percentage, a little bit better than Nick's May numbers but not by much, and who hit even fewer HRs than Nick. He averaged only 5 HRs per year.

It's Hall of Fame member Rod Carew.

deja vu all over again

so much effort for such a meager return

Like Buck said ...Nick makes at least one play a game that saves runners and runs. Please revisit the Nick talk in August. The guy is a flat out gamer.

O, great...now we are comparing Nick with two of the greatest hitters who ever played .... Rod Carew and Tony Gwynn... please revist that issue when Nick gets 3000 hits, steals 354 bases{like carew did} plays about 20 years with a lifetime average of .320......other than that give it up......

Gil,
Re-read what I wrote.

...This isn't the best comparison...

...Not that Kakes is as good a hitter as Gwynn, but the point is that homers and ribbies don't always tell the complete story...

Are you deliberately missing the point I was trying to make? Shoot, I wrote it out so people wouldn't think I was saying he's that good. C'mon, man.

Are you missing the complete story? I said that corner infielders and outfielders generally are paid to drive in runs, therefore BA and OPS are not the key enumerators. Home runs and RBI's matter at those positions, unless of course, someone else on the team is hitting enough of them. That is not the case with the Orioles. Nick needs to step up his game in those categories.