Hold him back. Not even a tought about him starting in the rotation. Too valuable to give up a year of protection for a few starts. No brainer.

So, we should hold Britton back because we the think the Orioles have a better chance of competing for a wild card berth next year? Or the year after? Next year's team will probably be worse than this year's team, so it makes no sense to try to preserve a year of service time for the kid. If he is ready, he is ready, and I say he is. He may end up being the second or third best starter before the year is out.

I am sick and tired of Andy Macphail and this franchise forever kicking the can down the road as if they are making progress. He is not and they are not and some noted baseball experts have chimed in on that lately.

I say pitch Brittton now and try to win as many games as we can out of the gate and forget about saving one year's service time for the organization. It doesn't make any sense to worry about where this team will be 5 years from now. And if Andy Macphail is still here 5 years from now the team will still be last in the AL East.

What about Stephen Strasburg.. ok he hurt himself because of the way he pitches. However, what about Chris Sale of the White Sox. Or Greg Maddux back in the day. I probable could go on here. If Zach is ready to roll, lets roll!
Put Tillman in the bullpen, I still think the dude has a lot of potential! Don't hold Zach back because of salary, it's absurd!

I'm hearing the magic date is April 20th. Since we won't even need a fifth starter until the 10th, we're talking about three games here. Is the differential between Tillman and Britton over three games worth the possibility of losing him in 2017, rather than keeping him that year? I don't think so!

Two words, Ben Mcdonald...

Wait until we can keep him another year (you all really think we're going to do better then 4th this year anyway?), since we're playing for next year and the year after anyway.

It makes baseball sense to wait.

No brainer to hold back on Britton for a month. It's only going to mean 4 starts or so. I think Arrieta's the real deal too. He reminds me a lot of Mussina, but bigger and stronger. Tillman should be kept down until there's absolutely nothing left to be learned at triple A. He will be incredibly effective if he can throw his curveball consistenly. He and a.j. burnett are very similar when their curve balls are working for them.

Keep him in AAA until the end of April. The team will always need good pitching to compete, so if a month now buys us an extra year down the road, then it's worth the sacrifice. It's not like the O's will be playing for the division or wild card this year anyway.

Send Britton to Norfolk. Keeping him in Balmer may mean 2-3 starts tops. If you think the O's are going to finish 2-3 games out of first at season's end, you're delusional. Why start the kid's service time clock early for no reason? While I agree with Gil on many things, on this one I think he's way off base.

What's the hurry re: Britton? Unless I missed something, he hasn't completely dominated hitters, at least to the point that he's that much better than guys like Tillman, Bergesen and Arieta.
I think we send him down and let him build up his confidence at AAA ball. We actually almost have a surplus of decent starters and while I'd love to have another lefty in the rotation, we do have Matusz to fill that role and 4 better than average righties.
If one of the others falter, then by all means consider some other options. I'd still like to see Britton put in another half season at AAA ball. We all know that young pitchers can be inconsistent and unpredictable as evidenced by guys like Daniel Cabrera, Hayden Penn, Garrett Olsen.

Call him up after April 20 and he misses 3 starts.....woop de doo.

There's already a strong chance Showalter is going to start with a 4 man rotation the first 10 days of the regular season. Use one of the long relievers to start for 2 games after April 10 and then call him up.

Unless we're worried about the difference between 80 wins and 81 wins, it's not a big deal.

Gil, gil, gil. What happened? Did you pour some expired milk on your Cocoa Puffs this morning to be in such a sour mood?

You know I love ya, man, but you're horribly wrong on this one. In fact, your whole post is off. The Orioles will be worse next year than this year? Really? How can you say that? Because two guys are on one-year contracts and another's deal ends this season?

Have you forgotten that the young pitchers will have yet another year under their belts, and the super phenom whom you want to start the season here will most likely be a full time member of the rotation next year? Add him to Matusz, who is quietly becoming the staff ace and the early favorite to be next year's opening day pitcher, if he isn't this year's, and Arrieta, who has the talent and the moxie to be quite the pitcher. Bergeson is a solid four guy, with Tillman slowly but surely making his presence known. Like the Emperor Schmuck pointed out, Chris is even younger than Zach. The Orioles will have a surplus of pitching, and can use one of the young guys for position help and this doesn't even count Guthrie, who is no slouch.

In the field, Reynolds is here for at least two years, and there are already rumblings that Hardy will sign an extension. The core will be here a while, Markakis, Wieters, Jones, Scott is not old, and then there's Reimold lurking. The only real concern going forward is Roberts, given his age and style of play.

But, for once, the Orioles are becoming well stocked with replacements. Givens, Hoes, and Adams are all possibilities to replace Brian. And don't forget Machado. The only thing he's doing wrong is blocking another super prospect, Schoop.

Snyder, Mahoney, Bell, and even Waring are all on a mission, I suspect we'll see good things from them this year. I don't deny the Orioles' farm could use a power hitting OFer, other than Reimold, but consider that Markakis is 27, Jones 26 and both have plenty of time to turn into solid power guys, capable of 22-27 HRs on a regular basis.

This year's draft is one of the deepest in years, with several more blue chippers likely to join the organization.

No, Gil, the Orioles are not going backward by any stretch. Are they perfect? Hell, no. Do they have questions? Hell, yes. Will everything work out the way we want? Never does.

But, for the first time in a long time, it's a great time to be an Oriole fan.

You send him to Norfolk and here's why. If he started the year in Baltimore then they would have to shut him down by mid-August because he would have reached his innings quota. By starting him at Norfolk and not latting him throw as many innings and then bringing him up in May or June, he can pitch until the end of the season. This way, you get the same number of major league starts from him and still lock him up for the extra year. This is a no brainer.

I'm 67, and I'm not worried about having Britton under contract until 2018 because I might not be here. I say, if you want to win, go with people who can compete and this kid can. He's 23 for crap sake, stop worrying about your financial situation and play him. He's going to be a safer bet than Bergy and Tillman in 2011! Remember Al Kaline? He started in RF at 18 out of Southern High.

ray of tampa -

The service-time thing, I get it. But your logic just blew me out of the water.

So lets say he threw 60 innings in Norfolk by June 1. Then lets say he gets called up June 2 and piches 120 innings all the way through September.

What's his quota?

What difference does it make if he pitches 60 innings in AAA? It would still be 180 innings.

On top of that, if he pitches efficiently and effectively, 180 innings shouldn't be that big of a deal. If the player development is worth anything, he should already be built up to withstand a full MLB season. Or else, he isn't ready.

Save him?!?! For what? Who knows what tomorrow might bring?

If he's one of the top 4 starters..play him. He's 23 years old for crying out loud! How old was Doc Goodenwhen he came up? Ubaldo Jimenez? Clay Buckholtz? And some guy named Palmer? If he can play...let him play.

No question Britton should start in AAA. I hope there's a plan with these guys: the thing to avoid is having Tillman and Britton yo-yo'd around. I say commit to Tillman in the big leagues, and bring Britton up only when there's a logical space for him.

As for the Orioles pitchers, Guthrie is Guthrie... well he's been inconsistent the past few years, and I think it's actually hard to know what we'll get from him. As for Arrieta, yeah he's like Mussina except that Jake has 1 pitch while Mike had like 6: I think the kid needs to work on his secondary offerings and I am not convinced about him as a productive ML starter, to be honest. And Bergesen... well I think his stuff is so-so, and he has to be awfully fine to succeed. Not exactly pennant-winning stuff, but I hope I'm wrong.

Good ole kenarooo,

Let's just keep holding out for the future...

Let's keep letting our youngsters develop...

Let's wait while the young pitchers get another year under their belt...

Let's watch as Matusz is the early favorite to be the opening day starter next season...

Let's keep an eye on xxxxxx as he's slowly but sure making his presence known....

Let's watch how guys like Snyder are on a mission....

kenkenkenkenkenkenkenkenkenkenkenkenkenkenkenkenkenkenkenkenkenken,

How many games did you say Matusz would win last season? Now I believe he's a good young pitcher ken, but why do you hype everything, only to come up WAY short every season?

When will posters like you learn?

What were you saying last season about guys like Bell and Synder? Come on ken, fess up now....

My goodness ken... You do this every season. Snyder is on a mission? Mission to do what?

Tillman is 'slowly but surely' making his presence know? Did you actually say that?

As for Britton..... Try to preserve a year of service? What an F'ing joke? You're being set up again people... It's happening right in front of you.....

There is NO timeline for WINNING. None - Zero - Nada - Zip....

Let me ask you.... When has AM said this team will begin to become competitive? Seriously. When is he saying? In his 5th year? His 8th?

Back to you ken,

You're so right my friend. This team is deep and stacked. Those minor leaguers you mentioned are just knocking down the door... To the tune of the #21 rated system in the league.

But no worries.....

They're on a 'slow but sure mission'...

Oh ken, I'd bet you again this season... bit it's no longer any fun.

Thanks, wayne.

I was about to write something, but you just reminded me why I stopped posting.

It doesn't matter........

Whatever decision Andy makes will be wrong....
cause Andy sucks.....
In fact we will get worse every year Andy is here...
The game has passed him by...
He's really mean the way he fires people...
Andy sucks as a GM....
He got lucky when he won those 2 World Series during the Civil War era of baseball...
Andy totally sucks...

The above book will be coming soon to a bookstore near you.... rough title
"Thoughts on the O's failed
GM"....or (100 reasons Andy Macphail sucks)
Rough outline presented by Gil and Wayne.. with help from ghostwriter not brooks not to be confused with i am brooks

Wayne,

The funny thing is, if he does start on 4/1, you'll be the first to blame Andy in 2014 when Britton does leave for free agency.

Right now if I had to make reasonable educated guesses:

• Matusz is a legit majorleague pitcher capable of having a strong peak at some point. How long and to what degree is up to how things unfold.

• Arrieta seems like a decent bet for a #3-4 pitcher. He might be more than that but he needs more consistency.

• Tillman is a wildcard. SO many teams end up having a young promising arm like his, only to see it wash out most of the time because of health or inability to throw consistent strikes. Right now if I had to bet, I'd bet he does wash out. I don't want that to happen, but that's what the odds say.

• Britton is very intriguing. He's an example of a pitching prospect who has been developed in a "Rays Way," earning a shot, one rung at a time. He's shown a ability to stay composed under stress and throw strikes pretty consistently for a young kid. Usually, when a kid is such a strike-thrower, they trade off stuff, but not this kid. He might have the best fastball of the bunch. The developing plus slider is not far behind too.

• Bergie is a fan favorite, but I'm not sure he's a real majorleague starter. His main asset in his rookie season was his ability to throw strikes and induce grounders. Since his injury, that talent has left him. Without the ability to toss strikes, he just doesn't have the stuff to be a majorleaguer. I think he might be destined for the bullpen, if not eventually off a majorleague roster.

You bet I'll complain PP, if he's a fine pitcher that is. Why wouldn't I?

Are you simply saying that AM won't pay competitively for a pitcher who came up through the system?

Oher teams do it PP... not just NY, Bos and Philly. Other medium markets, teams without PA's lucrative cable contract are able to pull it off. So you're saying the O's won't?

So is this why the O's should wait? Because we know AM won't be attempting to hold onto our own? Not that AM brought him into the system, because he didn't... but that's another subject.

But I get it PP... Perfect. Let's make decisions on a team that is routinely one of the worst in the game, based on free agency in 2014.

Sorry PP.... But if it weren't for fans like you, AM would no longer have a gig.

Oh come on CIH,

And you want to make it in the brutal music business? Toughen up my man. ANd besides, what did I say that was wrong?

And smitty,

Thanks for that. While we never, ever say the word 'sucks', you pretty much nailed it.

How you doing by the way? I hope great. I hope all is good.

Ahhh finally some life here again!
Why can't they have Britton involved in the decision? What exactly does he think about the situation? It's his career too! Also, Petey Pablo, I agree with you the Orioles should see if Ollie Perez is interested in a Minor League Deal. I have no problem with what you suggested the other day. None whatsever. Shame the O's didn't get a hold of Colon before the Yankees did. As long as he can keep the ball down and stay healthy, I think he's going to have a comeback player of the year type of season.

For the record, if Britton starts the year on the ML roster, he'll be a FA after the 2016 season. If the O's wait like they did with Wieters, it will be the 2017 season.

Given how this roster is constructed, and especially in light of 13 straight losing seasons, something that might happen 6-7 years in the future shouldn't matter one iota. If Britton is a better pitcher than Tillman, and more likely to get Major League hitters out, then he should be in the rotation. That's really all that ought to matter.

As for his innings limit, he threw 153 IP last year. His cut-off for 2011 is about 180. If the O's start him on the major league roster, and just skip him a couple of times (like teams often do with their 5th starter) they should be able to keep him under that number easily.

There is really very little reason not to promote him - if he's the best man for the job.

Ken,

I admire your unbridled enthusiasm for all things Orioles, but please put down the orange Kool Aid and inhale a dose of reality. In one sentence you wrote that "Scott is not old"; in the next you wrote that "the only real concern going forward is Roberts, given his age........" Ken, just how much of an age difference do you think there is between Luke and Brian? Try 10 1/2 months.

I don't know how you define the word "replacements", but I think you are confusing it with "guys who play the same position". None of the three you cited--Givens/Hoes/Adams--are even remotely close to being able to replace Brian Roberts and all he brings to the team...offense (doubles/stolen bases), defense and intangibles.

Your evaluation of Orioles talent throughout their minor league system is not shared by even one knowledgeable baseball source. The team did move up to the middle of the pack a couple of years back, but we promoted some guys, failed to replace them and now are ranked in the bottom 1/3. We have exactly two blue chip prospects in the entire organization and as soon as Britton is promoted, there will only be Machado. Yet, you believe that, in this year's draft alone, "several more blue chippers will join the organization" This flies in the face of the "reality" that the Orioles have failed miserably to mine even one blue chip prospect in every draft. In fact, the single biggest reason in my opinion for the Orioles' lack of success on the field has been their lack of success in the draft and being able to develop players. When you take Billy Rowell with the seventh pick and the SF Giants follow by selecting Tim Linthicum, that's a problem.

I think it makes sense to have Britton start in AAA.
I know it's only spring training but nice to see us beat the Yankees.
Really, on paper this team is set to contend this year. Boston is the only team on paper that can match us. And we have all the intangibles in our favor. Lots of players with something to prove. Buck at the helm. Young pitching that is the envy of the AL East. One of the best bullpen's in baseball. This is it... enjoy the ride folks. This patient rebuilding by AM is ready to bear some fruit!!!

The players are sick and tired of talking about 13 years of losing.
I'm sure Buck will stress that anyone on this club who wants to get to .500 better pack his bags. It's time to win!!!
If Roberts stays healthy 97 wins. If not maybe 92 wins. Either way we make the playoffs and go the World Series.

@ squirrel, I usually enjoy your posts but lets just enjoy our own players for a month or two....eh? I think you have mentioned picking up everyone in baseball over the last couple months.

When we are right in the thick of it at the trade deadline, you will be the "go to poster" on Schmucky's blog.

@ Harvey
Billy Rowell was a consensus top ten pick
"Blue Chippers" change from year to year.
The draft is a crapshoot and the rankings of teams could change even during the year depending on who steps up and who gets hurt etc.
No, the O's didn't do good in the draft for many year beginning in the 1980's. The results of the drafts under this regime are far from in yet, It takes 4-5 years to really evaluate a particular draft year.
Brian is "older" than Scott in the sense of the style of game he plays.
Once his speed is gone in a couple years he goes from being one of the top 2nd baseman in the game to above average player while Luke relies more on power and is not as injury prone as Brian is right now.
Really though having 2 players in the top 100 means little.
Not saying it means nothing, just little.
And if we have 5 or 10 in the top 100 next year it still will mean little.
Kansas City is loaded with prospects. It could mean a lot or it could mean little.
That's why they are called prospects.

Terrific post Harvey,

Only the most loyal apologist will debate anything you said. But of course they said the exact same thing last year, the year before, the year before that... well, you get the point.

Good post as well smitty. Hope things are going well for you guy. Stick with the 97 wins big guy. I hope you're right.

Thanks Beaner!

They let me out on leave for a few days next week.

@smitty

LMAO, ok sorry I get excited easily. No more ideas for awhile. I see what you're saying. I have to chill

ok real simple....if britton is on the ml roster prior to 4/20/11 and pitches well he will become a SUPER 2 making him eligible for arbitration after the 2012 season.
meaning it would cost the orioles at least 20 million more to keep him thru 2017....

for 3 starts come on people YOU WOULDNT DO IT WITH YOUR MONEY !!!

The Orioles have an obligation to put their best team on the field, and that includes bringing Britton north to Baltimore.

For all of you late-night accountants who are looking out for Peter's money may I remind you that it is the FAN'S money.

The fans pay the bills in the long run and the short run.

We have endured 13 straight years of nonsense. We have a first-class manager. Give him a team that can win.

1800dumpjunk, That's the point. In a way, it is our money, and we're tired of it always going to waste. How about making a point to all the young players in the system by saying, step up and we'll do the right thing by you. We'll do what championship type teams do. I know that's asking too much for this team, but wouldn't neglecting your thought process, a thought process drilled into you by one of the worse teams in all sports, be a breath of fresh air for this loser of a franchise? It has to start with someone. Why can't a message be sent to the fans and players alike that finally, the Orioles are attempting to not just be a 500 team, but a team that's respected .

Zach Britton is not being rushed to the major leagues. He has paid his dues at every level. I predicted that he would pitch lights out this spring and the Orioles would be forced to take him North, which they should. He has earned it. This sorry franchise cannot possibly worry about what might happen 5 years from now. They should play the achievers, the players that give them the best chance to win now. And I believe Zach Britton is one of them. Under Andy Macpahil's direction, the minor league system is in pathetic shape, thanks to Andy B. Macphail. Don't just listen to me, read what Keith Law and Ken Rosenthal have to say about it. It's really a matter of principal. If Britton was a 19 year old phenom from double A then send him back. Right now he is the best pitcher in camp and has hundreds of minor league innings under his belt at all levels.

If Macphail sends him back, Andy the saviour doesn't won't just suck like he normally does. He will suck to the 10th power. Can't you fans see that the Orioles are being jobbed by Macphail? He is the ultimate front office vagabond, stealing his paychecks based on his family name. How many more seasons does Andy B. need to flush down the drain before this town will wake up amd realize that his crowning achievement in four years was the Bedard trade? That's it. Period. He is over the hill. He is in over his head. He apparently missed the boat when other teams put together aggressive International Scouting efforts. He probably thinks the Dominican Republic is just outside Dundalk. The game has changed since Andy got a ring. He is a dinosauer and a foil for Angelos, and tries to keep his job by looking busy. Four more years? I hope not for the sake of the franchise.

"doesn't won't just suck like he normally does. He will suck to the 10th power."
Gil

Thanks for that Gil.
i will digest that as i don't will lie down sleep maybe later. Math skills good now.

Great new stuff you have their Gil!
I thought you really were going to retire but it's good to see you simply refreshed the old engine and figured out some new creative ways to say "Andy sucks". "to the 10th power"? ...cool...then when they lose 2 of the first 3 games you can say he sucks to the 25th power.

I will ask this though.
What do you think of the job Andy Macphail has done in rebuilding this franchise?

oh.... you've already answered that?

ahhh got it

pete, thanks for starting the ridiculous riot all over again

tell me you didn't know this was gonna happen

I think a lot of you are missing the point here. If 1) prior to April 20 is truly the key date - meaning the date that speeds up Arbitration and Free Agency and 2) The Orioles don;t need a 5th starter until April 10....

Then we are talking about 2 starts people.
2 starts is not worth possibly losing him to free agency a year early. and spending extra money early in arbitration. It's stupid folks - that's what poorly run MLB organizations would do.

If you feel like complaining and griping and calling names to the front office (and they may deserve the names over other things, particularly the owner) then go ahead, but this is not being debated by the team, I can assure you. And that includes Showalter.

It's a no-brainer - he comes up after that key date and no sooner.

To those of you who think Britton should start in AAA,

Why?! If his stuff is good enough to get MLB hitters out, start him now. He is 23 years old. Jim Palmer was 19 when he pitched in the bigs. I can't stand the "he is not ready" mentality. If he can pitch like that against the Yankees, he is more than ready.

Give the guy a chance to prove himself and let's get on with it. And believe you me, Buck will do what's best. If he thinks Britton is ready, Britton will play. Enough said.

I'm alone in the "who cares?" camp when it comes to Britton.

We all know that this team isn't going anywhere in 2011. And four April starts from Zach Britton aren't going to make the difference between "going nowhere" and "going to the playoffs". So who cares?

That said, I believe that Meso is right on here. If Buck wants Britton to go north with the Orioles, Britton will go north with the Orioles.

@smitty,

So the O's are going to the World Series eh? Can you please tell me what the lottery numbers are going to be this Friday?

Oh hell put Britton in the rotation now and if one of the others implode and Tillman is doing well in AAA then give him a shot otherwise he needs to stay in the minors for another year and not be yo yo'd between Norfolk and Baltimore.

I'm hearing the magic date is April 20th. Since we won't even need a fifth starter until the 10th, we're talking about three games here. Is the differential between Tillman and Britton over three games worth the possibility of losing him in 2017, rather than keeping him that year? I don't think so!

Posted by: ghostwriter | March 22, 2011 1:13 PM
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Can't be said any better. Wether you think he should start this year or next, there is no reason to bring him up before April 20th.

"I am sick and tired of Andy Macphail and this franchise forever kicking the can down the road as if they are making progress. "

Thanks, Gil, that makes two of us.

The real question should be whther or not there is a benefit to Britton. Does he learn and grow more starting the seaosn in the bigs or in AAA? If it is beneficial for him play with the O's, then he should. I think based on his performance this spring it is obvious that the team would be better off with him in the rotation.

Who cares about six seasons down the road as a reason for holding him out? With the rate that pitchers get injured, I'd be suprised if he makes it that far. It is more important to team and individual morale that someone who comeptes for spot and proves himself the best earns the job. Itr also signals the Orioles want to put the best team on the field and win.

Buck knows players and how to develop them. If he thinks Britton should make the team, I hope Andy will listen.

Been busy for a couple of months....looks like I haven't missed much.

The people in here talking about arbitration nonsense as if they're saving their own money, are the same people who say any of the following in no particular order:

1. We can't compete with the Yankees or the Redsox
2. _player_name_ didn't want to come here
3. We can't mortgage our future
4. We're a small market team
5. 20xx is not about wins and losses

Please guys! Stop acting like GMs when you don't have a clue. As it was previously said: a whole lot can happen in 6 years. If the O's were one of those "forward-thinking" franchises, they wouldn't be where they are today. Just be a fan and stop acting like you have the burden of running an MLB franchise on your shoulders.

It's more important for Britton to get 3 starts than a possible 32???

Gil, Wayne, Mes...

It's NOT about money, it's about control.

If Britton is called up on April 21st, he's Super 2 eligible. Meaning he gets every-single-penny a player of his caliber would get on the open market.

Every penny.

Equal to.

No savings.

Full price.

Unbelievable....can you guys change my single for a twenty-spot...

*(it's not MacPhail, it's MLB. Those are the rules. Maybe a dumb-ass rule like the Abritration clock's should be adjusted....like instead of an April 21st deadline, how about Sept 1st.)

3 starts over 32...wow. Andy's job is so safe.

The same people who say that Britton should go north (I'm mainly seeing Wayne and Gil, but there are others) are the ones who are generally mad about the direction the orioles are headed.
Basically you guys are saying to field the best team now in order to continue to suck.
Fact is Britton is having a good SPRING. A good SPRING. Relax everyone, we aren't saying to leave Cliff Lee down in AAA (though I would do that to have him another full year later, too.)

NB is right, it's not that big of a deal, if you aren't in the organization and aren't thinking long-term. If you are a reasonable person you realize that it only makes sense to wait until after April 20th to bring him up and maybe later.

To Meso, I'm only a fan, but a long-term fan. Britton doesn't necessarily make us a better team, he might, but if he is as good as we all seem to think than he will make us a better team for the following 5 years and hopefully if he is good enough, for longer.
To people who think AM is a bad GM, maybe so, but keeping Britton in AAA would not be a bad move no matter what.

The average number of wins by the AL wild card team in the past ten years is 96.8. Only once in that span was the win total below 95 -- 94 in 2007.

Does anyone think the Orioles are THAT close to October play?

What amazes me the most is reading those who complain out of habit how bad the Orioles are (and always will be) are the first proponents to squeeze out three extra starts by Britton -- not wins, just starts -- as if the team is THAT close.

I have been wanting the team to go after difference makers while building a farm system. That hasn't happened. I'm not all that happy about it. But that'ts the way it is.

If the current method of spending more money is a stepping stone to the future, then regardless if the Orioles have 70, 80 or 90 wins, this year is STILL about the future. If it is just a cold-blooded ploy to fool the public, then nothing matters.

Only if the Orioles had a proper chance at 94 wins minimum, does having Britton start the season in the rotation make any sense.

If you are in favor of Britton starting the season in Baltimore, I should see a 90-something win prediction. Otherwise, the only other explanations left are either you're hopelessly dumb or you just want to debate everything because you enjoy arguing for just argument's sake.

Just for clarity, if you do predict 90-something wins, I will disagree with you but I won't think you're dumb. The Showalter stretch from last year does translate to 96.6 wins over 162 games.

I'll leave calling half of Baltimoreans "on crack" to Nestor Aparicio.

Just for clarity, if you do predict 90-something wins, I will disagree with you but I won't think you're dumb. The Showalter stretch from last year does translate to 96.6 wins over 162 games.

I'll leave calling half of Baltimoreans "on crack" to Nestor Aparicio.

Paulie, G2 and others,

It seems to me that you guys and others here are more concerned with the long term future of the team than winning now. I repsect that. However ....

I am worried about now and the future. I don't buy these arguments that all the GM wannabes come up with. The goal of a professional sports team is to win the championship every year. If a team doesn't go in thinking, believing and trying to achieve that goal, that franchise is a fraud, and a disgrace to its own fans.

I don't think the O's will make the playoffs this year; however the team has to give all they've got to do the absolute best they can. And saying, we're a better team with Britton, but we're worried about arbitration, is cheating yourself and your fans from the best chance to win.

@Waspaman
The reason why the Wild Card win amount is so high is because the Wild Card usually comes from the AL Beast.

If the O's can split the series in 2011 with the Yankee, Rays and Red Sox. We will be over .500 this year.

The one team who concerns me the most are the A's. Their rotation might be the best in the League. Yes I said League. Even better then the "Hapless" Phillies =P. So maybe the Wild Card will come out of the Wild Wild West this year instead of the East. The one good thing is the Orioles will be more competitive, now as to how many wins they will have who knows. Oh one other thing since the blog is about pitching. Tillman is no schlub. If he gets it together, the Orioles could be a force.

There are obviously lots of good arguments on both sides. Everybody here is a baseball fan, as documented by the passion brought to this blog every day. At least, every day that Pete treats us with a post. To me it comes down to this: bringing him north right away may very well be a good baseball game decision, but it is a horrible baseball business decision. And there's no doubt, baseball is a BIG BID-NESS. How many more seats did Mike Mussina fill his first three starts than the 30 something starts he made each season in his prime? The arguments about Britton's age and Palmer's age when they started their major leagues careers are ridiculous. For one thing, Palmer was a special case, and for another, baseball was an entirely different business when Palmer was 19. Apples and oranges. Let's hope Britton goes down for three weeks, dominates AAA hitting, and we're all excited to have him in the rotation in May, and in 2017.

Yes I am back to being "Surly" because someone just gave me the business yesterday about this very thing... Anyway, I just read this on MLB Trade Rumors. So Pete S wherever you are can you yell at Buster Olney for me, since you know him. My question is why would we trade Hardy to the Giants and whom would we replace him with if we did do that at the trade dealine. Makes zero sense!

•Olney muses on who the Giants might look at as a midseason acquisition if Miguel Tejada does not work out at shortstop. He comes up with Jose Reyes, Marco Scutaro, and Jack Wilson as possible trade candidates. I can see Stephen Drew, J.J. Hardy, and Ronny Cedeno as other possibilities.

@G2,

Well said. I think many on here disagree on this only because AM is the GM. To me, this isn't about AM at all; it's about keeping a kid around as long as you can by foregoing 2 starts.

The two games in question seem to be 4/10 vs Tex and 4/16 @ Clev. They go with Tillman, which would be a good thing. He'd feel the urgency to pitch well, knowing Britton is breathing down his neck. If he pitches well, great, let him keep pitching. If he doesn't, we know Britton is ready to come up on 4/20.

I still think the biggest issue with our rotation is Bergesen. Much more important than this debate.

I'm hardly an Andy McPhail fan, but any GM worth his salt would keep Britton in the minors until after April 20th.

I guess you could argue that, if they choose to take him north, maybe Britton would remember it and give us a hometown discount when its time to negotiate his next contract. Seems like a reach to me.

Brought to you by the letter "k" for "Keep him down until April 20th"

Waspman, usually your comments are lucid and well thought through. This time you set the argument as a strawman, framed it and answered it yourself.

I don't expect the Orioles to come anywhere near 90 wins. With this organization and Andy Macphail, it's always about the future, which is quite bleak due to lack of a serious International Scouting effort. We will still be talking about the future 5 years from now if Macphail is still here. There is evidence, as Rosenthal pointed out, to suspect that it was Peter Angelos who put the pressure on Macphail to make it look like the team is trying to win this year.

Keith Law, Ken Rosenthal and others have also recently pointed out the poor outlook for the future of the franchise due to the deficient talent pool in the farm system. Nothing is going on right now with scouting or prospects that will change that anytime soon. The longest journey begins with a single step, and that step has yet to be taken. Andy Macphail is always getting ready to get ready.

It's about putting the best players on the field on opening day. And I don't think that fans who expect that effort from the organization are hopelessly dumb. But we have been hopelessly swindled by Peter Angelos for 13 years in a row. So my question to you is, why not pitch Britton now since there is no serious effort going to to upgrade the farm system as you have advocated many times over the years? What are we waiting on anymore with this organization?

Hey Gil,

I usually don't post so soon after posting, but I am making an exception because you brought up something that's swirling around in my head for awhile. Last year when the Orioles signed Miggy to a one year contract, I really didn't hear from the peanut gallery of Keith Law, Ken Rosenthal and others. Although, they may have said something and I didn't know it. I didn't start blogging until midway in the 2010 season and I didn't become the squirrel until Oct 1st =). This year however, there's been a lot of people bashing the O's for their offseason moves. In fact if memory serves me correctly some people predicted 85 wins for the O's in 2010 and obviously they fell a bit short, this year 77. We have a much better team this year and we have Buck now. So the long and short of it is. Why are Law and Rosenthal burying us this year, when I think the team has improved or at least it's competitive. It makes no sense to me.

Love the endless Keith Law and Ken Rosenthal citations from the Pouter Posse, as if any of these hacks (pro or con) has any real insight into the future. They don't!

What about the many pundits who cited the Orioles as a team on the rise this year? (I'm at work, you saw them, don't ask me to cite them because whether you agree with them or not you know they are there) Those are to be discounted and Law and Rosenthal are to be held up as gospel? Why?

Stop citing sources and call it what it is, your opinion.

Curious to hear the posse spin a competitive season down into the ground. What will it be? Any chance of "boy, I am glad I was wrong?" No way. Almost certainly it will be "none of these are AM's guys," "can't take the next step with him at the helm," etc., etc....

Let me say this plainly...you are not Orioles fans. No, not because you criticize the organization (any fan does that and plenty do that here in a sensible way) but you hate the owner and GM so much and your identity is so tied to your position that you hope they fail. You root for the Orioles failure. You'll deny it but it's obvious. Go away.

Gil writes: "So my question to you is, why not pitch Britton now since there is no serious effort going to to upgrade the farm system as you have advocated many times over the years? What are we waiting on anymore with this organization?"

Is ANYONE talking about keeping Britton down for the season??!! We are talking about THREE GAMES!!!! Talk about setting up a strawman. Hello?? That's a strawman.

Squirrel,

Rosenthal and Law are mainly concerned that the organization is showing no clear direction, and are expecially critical that there is no serious comittement to International scouting, even after four years of Andy Macphail. They are not sure why the team went out and signed veterens who may be on the downside of their careers, to one year contracts, if they are in an all out rebuild mode. They both think that next year could be worse than this year.

I guess it's one thing for Macphail to constantly say that the team is rebuilding, and at the same time ignore a critical part of the foundation necessary to rebuild sucessfully for the long term, International scouting. To be honest with you, I don't remember what they had to say about Tejada's signing last year. I still say a lot of things must go right this year for the team to be compettive for 2011. I hope they do and I hope they are. But the odds are against it. I think they can play .500 baseball but it will be a struggle with all of the injury issues.

@JohnBoy,

Let me illustrate to you why Britton, if he is that good, has no business spending another day in the minors. And the Palmer's age argument is legitimate. We don't have to go that far in history to see that a ton of good pitchers start young. Exhibit A below:

Pitcher name - Age as a rookie
Johnny Cueto - 23
Franciso Liriano -23
Tim Lincicum - 22
David Pryce - 23
Felix Hernandez - 19
Aroldis Chapman - 22
Steven Strasburg - 21
Tommy Hanson - 21
Phil Hughes - 21
John Lester - 22
Clayton Kershaw - 20
Ubaldo Jimenez - 22
Madison Bumgarner - 20

Meso -
Please provide one more piece of information on each of those pitchers. Information that will make their names pertinent to the discussion on this blog.

Please tell us the date that each of them was called up "to stick" ie their service clock started.

Some of those names go back a few years, but I am about 99.9% sure that Strassburg, Chapman and Bumgarner started after April 20 last year.

I don;t think there are too many posting here who think Britton is too young. We just don't want to trade a year's worth of control for 2 starts.

@Mike in Columbia,

That was a response to JohnBoy's comment that comparing Britton age to Palmer starting at 19 is absurd. And as I clearly showed, it's not absurd, and not too early for Britton to be called up. I would have called him up last year. I have a hard time believing that he got that good in 6-8 months. I think he was forcing the issue last year, but was being ignored.

Mike et al,

About the arbitration issue. I'm more concerned with what the player can do now and 2-3 years from now, than some lame arbitration argument 6 years from now.

Case in point: Weiters. We had this conversation last year. Knowing what we know now, I don't think I care whether Weiters is an Oriole or not after 5 years. Maybe things will change, but he sure aint no Joe Mauer junior like they hype machine made him to be.

I say we trade Matusz, Britton, & Wieters
right now. Why should Orioles management deal with all this stress?
I mean Scott Boras is the agent for both Britton and Wieters, so it's really a no win situation. As Matusz, you know he's going to leave town in 5 years, so lets cut them all off at the pass and trade them now for Michael Young and a signed Nolan Ryan baseball. Lets relieve ourselves of all this stress and agnst that this whole situation is causing us

Meso, it's 2 or 3 starts we're taling about. Look, one of 3 things will happen (I'm listing in order of likelihood).

1) Britton starts in AAA. SOon into the season, even as early as 4/20, one of Arietta, Bergeson or Tillman is hurt and or pitching poorly. Britton gets called up and gets his shot.

2) Pitchers not named Britton above are pitching so well that he needs to wait a while. You can count on someone getting injured at some point. IN this scenario he has to wait longer, but this is not exactly bad for Orioles fans.

3) Britton starts in the minors and does not pitch well or gets hurt. In this case I think we would all agree that it's best he did not start the year with the O's.

Bottom line, you will eaither get to see him very soon this year, or the starters will eb doing so well that you will not be complaining. Remember, the timw needed to wait in order to make a smart baseball decision amounts to 20 games or so.

Gil, et al,

Very few people on here think AM is a good GM. I'd prefer a new one, but think the issue is more PA than AM. Regardless, keeping Britton in Norfolk for 2 starts fall under the 'AM is bad' category. Read what the other columnists are saying - the baseball world think the O's would be foolish to give up that extra year for two starts. If you're going to reference baseball insiders, reference them all not just the ones that support your well-documented dislike of AM.

More then likely a majority of Me-So-Wayne's list were called up after the April 20th magic date. All ML teams play by the same rules, no use to give up a year of control of one of baseball's best young pitchers just because a couple of posters say so.

Point is, the only way this debate is worth debating is in Oct and the O's missed the wild card by two games. Otherwise it's just another real hot air affair mostly coming from mostly one computor.

We've listened to this whining that the O's farm system is ranked 21st. So what? It's players that count, not rankings. O's farm system would have ranked higher the last few years if the team was allowing these guys to gain more seasoning in the minors before rushing them up to get a baptism by fire in the majors.

This spring the O's have the best young LH'er in the majors on their hands. This guy didn't appear out of thin air, the O's have been bringing him along step by step. I've seen him pitch at Frederick and Bowie. The kid's the real deal. He has the tools to be a ML strike out pitcher. Bergenson has to do it with smoke and mirrors to be effective.

But Britton's got a live fastball and a ML quality sinker, which could make him the best of the bunch of these young pitchers. The guy has got a real honest to goodness ML out pitch, one that hitters struggle to hit even if they know it's coming.

Wayne, in his many forms, loves to beat down the O's minor league prospects. Truth is there are some very good prospects in the O's system right now. Adams and Mahoney did a good job of hitting ML pitching this spring, and they're just the tip of the iceberg.

The veteran signings and the trades for Reynolds, and Hardy, are consistant with the rebuilding plan. The O's are giving the group of talent that was at Frederick and Bowie last year time to mature. Any real look at the O's minor's has acknowledged real talent at the A ball level last year, but a lack of real prospects that played at AAA last year and a mixed bag at AA.

The system needs another year to reload at the upper levels. Buck and McPhail did a real good job of making some signings to fill in the AAA depth this winter. A couple of those guys have been real surprises and could even make the O's pen instead of pitching for the Tides.

A month ago the detractors were running down the O's young starting pitching, now the same guys can't wait to throw Britton in the rotation, go figure...

I've read with some interest that Bryce Harper could start out at Hagerstown's low A ball team. Shame Hagerstown's stadium's got a wall and almost no bleachers, would have been nice to catch a ball off his bat. But I will make some trips to Hagerstown to check him out. Hagerstown was where Willie Mays broke into pro ball many moons ago. I'm wondering if the Washington management will hype that as part of the Harper story.

I'm hoping that Givens and Machado tear up early at Salsibury and I get the chance to see them at Frederick in the second half. You know Buck didn't ride up to Aberdeen to see them play just for something to do last year.

Buck's looking at the best 25 for his roster, but he's got the rest of these guy's on his wall...

international scouting?
international scouting
international scouting is the only way this team will progress to the next level.
More scouts in Romania and Tanzania.

Rosenthal and Keith Law are "concerned" about our lack of international scouting...
I am concerned about Rosenthals and Keith Law also....
Can't they just call the O's front office and give them a tip on the city and country where we can find the next Babe Ruth?
I mean if they are really concerned they could at least try to help us.

is anyone still awake?

we need to get better at international scouting....

What is international scouting and why do we suck so bad at it....
Is it because Andy Macphail sucks at everything he does since he Won 2 World Series back in the Bronze age?

I'm really bored with discussing international scouting....can we start the season already?

Ghostwriter said it best, you send him down.

Ghostwriter said it best, you send him down.

Question: What do Jeremy Guthrie, Brad Bergeson, Jake Arietta, and Zach Britton have in common?

Answer: They were NOT acquired or drafted under Andy Macphail's regime. So much for his "Grow the arms" lip service. Other than Chris Tillman, who else has he helped acquire in four years on the job that is consistent with his propaganda? He has had four years to "grow some arms", hasn't he? Where are they? Where is the serious wave of budding young minor league talent that Andy has spent 4 years acquiring, while planning to lose for the sake of rebuilding?

If you repeat a lie often enough, people will tend to believe that it is true. Andy is real good at that. But on paper he has promised much and delivered little. Four years. Not much to show, yet his fan club are absolutely orgasmic in praise for him. Where are Andy's arms? Will Andy's fan club please list them for me, starting with Matt Hobgood?

As the resident numbers guy here, I feel that it's my duty to find out when all of the guys on Meso's list were called up. Also, I'm curious...

Johnny Cueto - April 3, 2008
Francisco Liriano - September 5, 2005
Tim Lincecum - May 6, 2007
David Price - September 14, 2008
Felix Hernandez - August 4, 2005
Aroldis Chapman - August 31, 2010
Steven Strasburg - June 8, 2010
Tommy Hanson - June 7, 2009
Phil Hughes - April 26, 2007
Jon Lester - June 10, 2006
Clayton Kershaw - May 25, 2008
Ubaldo Jimenez - September 26, 2006
Madison Bumgarner - September 8, 2009

So what does this mean? Nothing really. All of these guys are very different in terms of the circumstances of their call ups. And we're talking about eleven different teams here over a span over six years. This is about as random as anything in baseball.

So lets forget about what this team did with this guy and what that team did with that guy and lets just think about what's best for Britton and the Orioles.

For the "Bring Britton North" side, it does make sense to take the best possible team out of spring training, regardless of service time. For the "Seven Years is Better Than Three Starts" side it does make sense to sacrifice those three starts to keep Britton under team control for one more season.

As I implied before, this argument is mostly pointless. Will sending Britton to AAA for a month ruin the Orioles chances for a playoff spot? No. Because, even with Britton performing as we all hope he will, this team isn't going to sniff a playoff spot in 2011.

Those of you who are on the "Bring Britton North" side who are set to rail against Andy MacPhail if Britton isn't in Tampa on April 1 need to calm down. If Britton is sent down, it won't be further proof that MacPhail is a terrible GM. It'll be another example of a franchise treating baseball as a business. And you'll find examples of it all over the game.

To be fair, Gil, Andy's "Grow the Arms" list starts with Brian Matusz.

Hey Meso,
Your comment on Weiters shows how you can only see the short-term. You are ready to give up on Weiters after one and a half seasons? Wow. You don't care about controlling this group of good pitching prospects for the long-term at reasonable salary levels? Preposterous.

What 2-4th year catcher is so great that he puts Weiters to absolute shame? I'm pretty sure Weiters will prove you wrong. He might never be Joe Maurer, but he will be a solid offensive and defensive catcher for years to come and that is worth a #1 draft pick. Maybe more valuable than a really good #2-3 starting pitcher like the Nats maybe got.

Just saw on O's insider that Britton has only had 12 AAA starts. That doesn't mean he couldn't pitch in the majors, but it does mean that I wasted a lot of time blogging about this one.

NB,

Matusz was a no brainer, even Andy Macphail, as inept as he is could not have missed stumbling on him. West Coast pitcher of the year and we drafted fourth. Most scouts agreed he was the most talented and advanced pitcher available in the draft. And since the Orioles always suck they always draft high. How can you screw that up? Even counting Matusz and Tillman, that's hardly 4 years of "grow the arms" progress, And where is the next wave Andy acquired? If a team is in an all out rebuilding mode for four years, that is pretty pathetic. I guess it will take 4 more years to get two more, if Tillman even pans out, which is questionable. An 8 year pitching rebuilding program. Wonderful.

That's where International scouting and particularly Latin America comes in handy, as most other teams have found. But Andy can't find the time for that. He is busy growing the arms and buying the bats in his own little world of vintage baseball.

NB, seriously, do you think Macphail has made any tangible progress in 4 long years, and do you think his rhetoric and results match his stated mission?

@G2,

Yes, I'm giving up on believing Weiters will ever be worthy of a 5th overall pick. Let's put that to rest. You're not supposed to miss with the top 5 picks. They're supposed to be superstars.

Will he be a good and serviceable ball player? Absolutely. I've said that before. But Joe Mauer he won't be.

So, would I rather see what the kid has day one rather than worrying about some arbitrary arbitration scenario? Yes. If I think the kid gives me the best chance to win. Winning should matter more to a club than arbitration. But that's just me.

@NB,

The list I provided has nothing to do with arbitration, but it has all to do with showing JohnBoy that pitchers being brought up at a younger age than Britton is the norm and not the exception around MLB. Especially when you're talking about "can't miss" prospects.

Meso - I should have said that those dates were in response to MountainFan, who guessed that none of those pitchers were called up before April 20.

Gil - I wasn't arguing with you. I was just pointing out that Andy's "Grow the Arms" list would start with Matusz. The "no-brainability" of drafting Matusz has nothing to do with the fact that he's a grown arm.

And, to answer your question: No, on all counts.

The way I see it, the Andy MacPhail regime hasn't been any different from the Syd Thrift Regime or the Flanagan/Beattie Regime. Sure, you can argue the difference between "really bad", "awful" and "terrible" if you want (keep it up, wayne!), but when it comes down to it, each GM Regime after Pat Gillick's departure has been full of empty promises, washed up veterans and overrated prospects.

Almost four years into Andy MacPhail's reign, I don't see anything that separates him from the pack of our trio of failed management teams. Sure, that could change a lot this year, depending on the success/failure of a handful of players, but I also don't see any reason to believe that next offseason's plan will be any different from this offseason's plan.

So nb you can't/won't answer this question?
If the O's win over 90 games this year and next year for that matter, does that mean Andy's time was just like those other regimes?
Will any of the naysayers admit they were way off in their judgement of what AM has done if we do win 90 games this year?
Will it be just random luck?
Just wondering when the hatred ends for this man who has completely overhauled the pathetic roster he inherited in 2007 and turned it into a very respectable major league roster....but it's "just the same" huh?

I guess Lincecum wasn't a no-brainer since Rowell was drafted in front of him.

Oh yeah, MacFailure didn't make that boo boo. This is a wing nut lefty AM lover and righty AM hater blog, and nothing else applies.

Disregard.

Carry on.

Smitty,
Save that comment for when we do actually win 90 games.
Meso,
I;m not s sure about in baseball but with basketball top 5 picks bust all the time. I say as long as we get a respectable starting catcher for the next decade or so, we got a good deal. If every one of the top 5 picks became superstars then the league would soon be overrun with superstars. It doesn't work that way.

Smitty,

MacPhail himself wouldn't seek as much approval as you seek for him each and every day on this blog.

Of course MacPhail would get credit if the team wins 90 games. Everyone would. Peter Angelos, Buck Showalter ... all the way down to the bat boy.

Rarely does a franchise win or lose because of one thing or one person; however the people at the top, such as the owner, GM and manager are the folks who have more power to make things happen or ruin an entire franchise. That's why they're often the people who get the praise or the blame, depending the outcome.

Those of us who are critical of MacPhail are not happy with his job to date. The record is what fuels are frustrations. That said, having one good year (if it happens), doesn't negate the subpar job he's done in 4 years. It makes people forget about it, yes. As they say: winning cures everything. All he's gotta do is win. It is as simple as that.

MacPhail's has set the bar so low with regards to expectations and production on the field in 4 years, that this year is already a success. And they haven't played a single game yet.

Gil,

From 1965 to 2010, #1 overall draft pick has produced 21 All-Stars. 45 players, 21 All-Stars, less than 50%.

Price, the most recent All-Star, was drafted in 2007. It isn't really fair to include anyone after that, and even though excluding them would kick it up to 50/50ish, I think the point is accurately illustrated: There is no such thing as a "no-brainer".

meso,
I'm just throwing some bounce-back rationalism into the hatefest. I've said over and over patience is needed. Th efans are so tired of losing they can't see whats going on and then you have the resident troll of a thousand names....

Of course it's always the players who win games. GM's assemble the team and let it rip.
You do remember that AM came here after 10 straight years of losing, right?
You do realize it was one of the most dysfunctional pathetic organization in baseball?
You do realize no GM in the history of the sport could have turned it around in just 1-2 years after 10 consecutive losing ones? Doesn't happen
The posters on here who rip Macphail constantly for everything just were not patient enough and their restlessness led to their irrational thinking regarding the rebuilding program.
So this notion that "there is no chance we get to the playoffs" this year is at least equally absurd as my notion that we go to the World Series.
I'm the yang to all the yin...the sunrise to the sunsetters...the half full to the half emtiers....
It's just a kids game after all......

I sort of did answer that question 12 minutes before you asked it, smitty...

"Almost four years into Andy MacPhail's reign, I don't see anything that separates him from the pack of our trio of failed management teams. Sure, that could change a lot this year, depending on the success/failure of a handful of players..."

If the 2011 Orioles win 90 games, I'll be jumping for joy and giving MacPhail more praise than he can handle. But for the 2011 Orioles to win 90 games, a lot of things that I don't care to get into at 11:02pm on a Wednesday night are going to have to go right.

Of course no one could have turned the Oriole Mess around in one or two years, smitty, but we're about three months from the start of Year Five of the Andy MacPhail Regime...

What are the following (answer later)?

Red Sox, 89
Rangers, 87
Yankees, 89
Tigers, Mariners, 88
Angels, 89
Indians, 93
Athletics, 91
Mariners, 93
Red Sox, Mariners, 93
Twins, 85

*****

Okay, Gil, if the Orioles are always about the future with the future never getting here, then it fits the nothing makes any difference anyhow option I included. I'm glad, really. You are one person I wouldn't have wanted to label as being hopelessly dumb.

And if that's the argument -- and it could be true -- then arguing for or against Britton being an April Fool 2011 Oriole is sort of pointless.

The only reason I give Peter Angelos any latitude at all is because he was once about winning. His methodology was pure crap. He was impatient with Oates. He overruled Gillick. He outspent all other teams for a while -- not wisely, but it was an effort to win.

At some point, Angelos had bigger issues in his mind than the Orioles. He didn't like his manager. His ace. His stud 1B. His GM. Even having a GM. His announcer. His slice of DC. His parity with the Ravens. His distribution of press passes. His flagship station. I'm probably leaving out a dozen or two.

Angelos was being painted as one who cared about his bottom line and that bottom line was dollars, not wins. It was a fair argument. I made the same argument. For a while. Long enough to ditch my 81-game plan.

I genuinely get the feeling Angelos is trying to make amends. He's doing it through MacPhail. My arguments for and against MacPhail -- and I do have both maybe 70-30 as being against -- are irrelevant for me for right now.

The point is Angelos is sort of delegating. That's a major improvement if true.

And Angelos seems to be as impatient as we are. He spent money on one-year rentals and the Orioles have acquired players who will have some significant pay raises coming their way.

Remember, this is not an argument on whether any of this was the right way to go about things. The main point is the Orioles could keep clutching their purse strings, but they aren't.

This could very well be a ploy -- to be nothing more than just an appearance. But, I have to go back to how Angelos was early in his ownership. Then, I also have to figure in Angelos is not a young man.

Remember how Edward Bennett Williams bought all of those free agents after the quick decline post-World Series '83? With him, it was health issues. But he wanted to win and he wasn't interested in waiting until the results go to be so poor, he had to okay the reset button being pushed.

Angelos (to my knowledge) has no pending health issues. But he did once upon a time show himself to be more like EBW than Eli Jacobs.

What's more, Angelos seems to let MacPhail do more in a MacPhailian way even if his patience is being tested. Again, this is not about MacPhail. MacPhail will either succeed, evolve, or be asked to leave. If he leaves, this development will be good for the next person in charge.

If true, having Britton in 2017 might make a difference.

****

The Jim Palmer argument can work both ways. Palmer pitched in 27 games in 1965, 21 in relief. The next year he made 30 starts, pitched over 200 innings, beat Sandy Koufax in a World Series complete game -- all as a 20-year old.

And he was almost ruined. Like Wally Bunker. And the Kiddie Korp.

He had a very short 1967 season, and he wouldn't return until 1969.

He got his apprenticeship in the bullpen because of the Oriole depth in pitching at the MLB level and throughout the minors. The franchise was able to be patient with him when injuries almost made him a Trivial Pursuit answer rather than a Hall of Famer.

The current Orioles are not in that position.

*****

The list above are the teams of the AL over the last ten years (in reverse order) that did not make the playoffs with their win total. The average is 89.7 wins for the team closest but failing to reach the playoffs.

By the way, the Twins' 85 wins in 2001 made them 17 games behind Oakland (wild card) who in turn was 14 games behind Seattle. Only also in 2006 was there not an AL East team as the wild card or the next closest team.

So, anyway, 89.7 is the average for the best almost wild card team. Three extra starts for Britton won't challenge that either.

Not Brooks, thanks for that sensible post at 8:09PM last night.

You're right: the argument is mostly pointless. Both sides have legitimate reasons, and either way the Orioles aren't going to contend this year. Disappointing but realistic. Sorry that the usual suspects on both "sides" of this blog are still twisting their thongs over this kind of thing.

Meso, you're a masochist... are you sure other folks have/want to watch?

Smitty,

I think the Orioles have a shot at making the playoffs, but how likely is it? That's the point some folks are making. Anything can happen. We're not discounting that.

I believe the O's started on the right track the day Buck Showalter was hired. To me: that was when the rebuilding started. The years before that, were an absolute waste.

The key question is: Is MacPhail building a team that will contend now and for years to come? The veteran moves this offseason are puzzling. They're veterans with very little upside. OK, the O's win 90 games this year. How about the following year, when Guerrero, Lee and others are gone? Or do you re-sign those guys? What hitters do we have in the minors who will be called up next year or the year after that? Is Angelos ready to make those blockbuster moves it takes to be a contender? Too many question marks. But one thing is for certain. The team has got to do better than they did in the previous four years. I think it would be devastating to the fanbase and the rebuilding process itself if the O's lost another 90 games.

@Birdfan from Birth,

I know your wife likes it.

Meso says
"I believe the O's started on the right track the day Buck Showalter was hired. To me: that was when the rebuilding started. The years before that, were an absolute waste."

Great,,,none of the players matter it's Buck 100%.....got it...that's sound reasoning....so sound I can't argue with it....the rebuilding started with the hiring of Buck.....man get a grip

"Sure, that could change a lot this year, depending on the success/failure of a handful of players..."

nb

That's really stating the obvious. I would think every team in baseball every year in every league in every city in every nation can say that.
However in years past everything could have gone right and our teams lacked the talent to even win 80 games.
It's different this year...why?

because we have better players....in fact the best on paper since 1997...why? because Andy through various means made the team better...How hard is this to understand?

So how many years should it have taken to field a competitive team???
Year 1
year 2 year 3\how bout year 4?
How bout we give these next several months to see where we are....
It's called rebuilding..
It's called patience

This is getting really boring let the games begin!!!

Smitty,

I believed all along, and I'm on the record as saying, that the players were better than their record showed. I believe Trembley is what kept this team from reaching its potential. That is why I say the rebuilding started when Buck showed up.

I was one of the loudest voices calling from Trembley's firing, because I knew this team could do so much better without him. And boy, was I right!

A ton of you were saying that the manager doesn't make a difference.

It's really quite simple........

Those who want to hold Britton back have a Loser mentality. End of story.....

You don't watch baseball as a competitive sport. Instead, you watch them as a form of entertainment while sitting in your chair at night, typing on Pete's Blog.

It's been so long since you've watched a competitive baseball team in Baltimore, you have lost any sense of what it takes to have an 'edge' when competing at high level in this sport.

Britton is the perfect example.

Of course keeping him in the minors is the CORRECT business move. In fact, it's the same kind of move a team like Pittsburgh would make..... a team that does not, and will not have a plan in store for winning, ever.

Some will say it's not actually a Loser mentality. But these same people will back AM, touting him as the right guy for this franchise.

Others however, would notice that Britton is simply another young pitcher not drafted by AM, yet someone AM gets credit for.

Others notice how the minor league system is ranked #21 in MLB, and will only be worse once Britton actually does come up.

Others will notice that the O's international efforts under AM continue to be an embarrassment throughout the game.

Others will notice that the injury concerns are so obvious (even before ST began), that even the most lighthearted observers would have seen it coming.

Others will notice that 2 players penciled into the middle of the lineup will likely not be on the club after the trade deadline.... and they'll know that AM will never replace them with 'real' productive, in their prime players.

But most of all........

Others will notice that the same fans with the Loser mentality simply don't understand how their faith is riding on a baseball executive who has lost more games than anyone else in over two decades.

Not, 3 years... not 7 years... not 12 years... not 15... or 17... but over Twenty years.

Yes, of course it makes all the business sense in the world to keep this fine 23 year old pitcher down for just a few more weeks.

Even Pittsburgh fans understand that....

Just curious. This blog seems to have a cult like following. You have your daily battles between Wayne and Smitty, and then you have your Gil's and Ken's doing battle as well.

There are some real characters on here, and I was wondering why none of you come over to OriolesHangout.com to post all your insightful thoughts? We have some great characters as well, such as Weams, Frobby, Duffman, etc. We even have celeberties like Roy Firestone who provide great analaysis on the team and individuals, his insight is uncanny (did I mention he was a celebrity??)

Seriously though, is it the money you have to pay to be a member that is an issue, or do you guys truly dislike them, like a rivalry of some sorts?? That would definitely provide some great drama, if you have Schmuck's blog followers in one corner and the OH followers in the other. You may actually see Smitty and Wayne sticking up for each other.

So any explanations??

I forgot to mention that OriolesHangout.com provides the best coverage of any blog in the United States for one organization. You don't have to wait for Schmuck to post another blog to argue with each other, all it takes is a new thread that you yourself can start.

Everyone is pretty friendly over there, but who doesn't love the drama?? I mean there's a reason Jersey Shore is the #1 show in America, WE LOVE THE DRAMA. It could really spice up the OH.

..............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Chris, I think a lot of people here already do go on OH, which is a great site. It's just a different format. It's more like an open-line radio show. This is more like Family Feud.

Aw, Meso, was it the thong comment that got to you? Sorry, I didn't realize you'd take it so personally!

wayne -

When one expects, and almost hopes for, the worst, couldn't that also be called a "loser mentality"?

Just a thought.

Anyway, to those of you who are expecting the worst this year, what's the point of starting Britton's clock on Opening Day? The injuries that were so obvious even before ST are going to be too much. Vlad and Lee are going to be gone by the trade deadline anyway. There's no one else in the minor league pipeline that can help fill the holes at the big league level. And whatever and whatever else. Right?

With all of those things that are going to lead to another losing season, why waste service time on a guy who could be a rotation mainstay for seven years?

(By the by, this isn't my logic. I'm just using what you're saying about this coming season and applying them to the Britton situation.

Chris in CarCo, I can only answer for me.

I spend oodles of time on the computer as part of my job. My job usually entails having to do four things at once, or waiting for some interdependency before I can do something. The computer is also something I use for my hobbies. I regard the computer as a necessary evil. Nothing more.

So when I scan the Internet for entertainment, it is usually because I'm tethered to the damn thing anyway. So, I scan for news which includes sports.

Although The Sun has been in decline for a while now, it is still my local paper. My only local paper. I read Pressboxonline and I still get the NST Crabs and Beer in my email box. The latter has become more of an empty read since they lost a few key components but it remains harmless to still receive it amongst the opportunities of folks overseas wanting to give me millions of dollars. It may be cyclical.

After that, I go to national sites.

The whole posting thing for me is just an opportunity to express myself on issues of the moment. I'm not interested in characters or being one. If I am one, it is happenstance. Half the time I don't even think anyone reads my posts. That's okay. My interest was in posting and I get to do that here while I am already here as I like reading Peter Schmuck. I don't always agree with him, but that's not the point for me.

I probably should go to lunch now.

BTW, I barely understand the Jersey Shore reference. For weeks, I used to think The Situation had to do with Wolf Blitzer's room. I'm not big on drama. It finds me just fine; I don't need to look for it.

wayne, you know nothing. Every time you post something, your ignorance is confirmed.

Harvey, Harvey, Harvey. Really, Harvey? You can't tell the difference?

In true MSM fashion, you failed to include the whole quote. I said Roberts' age "and style of
play." Scott is an OFer, who is morphing into a 1B and DH. Those guys can last until they're 100. Roberts, on the other hand, is a speed guy, a guy who, like running backs, is on the downside past 30.

C'mon, Harv, I would expect you to know the difference.

ken my friend,

Now that wasn't very nice.......

I didn't call you a loser by the way ken.... just your (and other fans) mentality as it pertains to the O's. Do you understand the difference?

And for someone who 'knows nothing', I sure cleaned your clock last season in that bet that you refuse to honor....

That's ok though.... I didn't expect you to....

How does Orioleshangout provide the best coverage? What coverage? It's a freakin' message board. They don't have actual reporters breaking stories and traveling to games. (Though they have people pretending to be reporters). They're not in Sarasota.
Coverage? It's an entertaining message board and their minor league stuff is good. That's IT!

WAAAAAYYYYYNNNNNNEEEE!

Are you posting in that blog again? I told you I wanted a pedicure, now get your butt up here and give me one.

And when are you going to get a job? Did you put in your application at where you worked your last job, Gino's? I heard they are back......

Laments of a loser...The Way to lose the Wayne Way

If this isn't an example of a losers mentality I don't know what is

LOSING MENTALITY #1
Others however, would notice that Britton is simply another young pitcher not drafted by AM, yet someone AM gets credit for.
LOSING MENTALITY#2
Others notice how the minor league system is ranked #21 in MLB, and will only be worse once Britton actually does come up.
LOSING MENTALITY#3
Others will notice that the O's international efforts under AM continue to be an embarrassment throughout the game.
LOSING MENTALITY#4
Others will notice that the injury concerns are so obvious (even before ST began), that even the most lighthearted observers would have seen it coming.
LOSING MENTALITY#5
Others will notice that 2 players penciled into the middle of the lineup will likely not be on the club after the trade deadline.... and they'll know that AM will never replace them with 'real' productive, in their prime players.

There you have it folks. The sure way to keep losing...keep focusing on losing....keep talking about losing...
You are the friend to losers everywhere..
Keep at it Beaner, I think your team will be looking up the O's this year

Me, I'm not following you... cause you haven't won 2 World Championships.
Or maybe your team and GM have won 2? hmm...

I can't believe people actually want to start this kid right away and lose a full year of him! What kind of sense does that make? Like a previous poster said...we are only talking the end of April anyways. Its 3-4 starts. It's the equivalent to me saying "do you want $50 today, or $10,000 down the road? " uhhh Easy decision people! I hope he is called up on the exact date though. He has shown good stuff and I'm stoked about him and Matusz!! If Arrieta can be our #3 and between the rest of the guys have a 4-5 then we have a bright pitching future.

You guys saying if he's a great pitcher now then an extra year 6-7 years down the road doesn't mean anything...are respectfully...CRAZY! haha Yes I said it. So if this guy turns into a 20 game winner then 6 years down the road when we lose him you will be the ones crying saying how we should have held him back for those 20 days. Really guys it's 20 days!! Plus, has he even faced a real lineup this spring? seems like he's going against a lot of bench players and split squads. The yankees had a few regulars in their lineup, but it was far from the real thing. How did that whole Strasburg thing work out last year? They did the same thing, which is the RIGHT thing. It makes 0 sense to bring him in right away. And to the Mcphail haters... go look a the roster 5 years ago and tell me we don't have more talent now. It's 'talent'. Nothing guaranteed about that. He can't get on the field and make the talent blossom. I'll take the talent and the way mcphail makes smart trades all day over what we had before which was NOTHING! At least we have a little bit of hope. It all depends how our 4-5 young starters pan out. I think so many are just so down from the last 13 years that they just gripe about it. I've been around to and I'm still excited about the coming years here.

Peter, nice article. No sense in rushing Britton and besides, the O's get to keep him under wraps for another year. He's breezed his way up through Norfolk, although he hasn't log a lot of innings at each stop. Let him pitch and continue his success in Norfolk to give him a lot of confidence, then bring him up. He's a prize for the O's and maybe their future, so I hope the O's take it nice and easy with him and his golden arm.

Kurkjian expects Britton to likely begin this season in the minors. He said the O's would be right to try and push Britton's free agency back another year by keeping him in the minors at least for a few weeks.

"Almost every team goes that route. The Rays did it a few years ago, whether they will acknowledge it or not, with Evan Longoria. They left him in the minors for two weeks and then brought him up. If the Orioles were to send Britton out, it would be standard operating procedure and they should not take significant heat for it," he added.

so now Kurkjian has fallen under the spell of the warehouse. another relative of Andy.....Uncle Tim