http://www.nesn.com/2011/02/red-sox-have-eighth-best-offseason-while-orioles-win-the-winter-according-to-wall-street-journal.html

Ok I admit it. My real name is Michael Hurley and i write for the Wall Street Journal and my Uncle is Andy Macphail

Even with all my expertise I still couldn't copy and paste this article.

It appears Uncle Andy isn't quite ready for the GM's old folks home or the "commish job".

Correction.... I can copy and paste!!!

now where is that stinkin beaner post??

What was Frank, about 70 years old when he offered to go accross the field and teach the Angels bench a lesson about respect?

The guy's one of the game's greats, great to see Buck bring Frank in to address the team and let these guys know they play for a one of baseball's great franchises.

Smitty, everybody knows the WSJ is one of those liberal rags!

I'll still never forget that episode of Hangin' with Mr. Cooper, when Mark is coaching a little league team and this player keeps saying "...but my Uncle Frank said we're supposed to do it this way!"

Finally Mark goes off about Uncle Frank, and sure enough, Uncle Frank (Robinson) comes walking up to give a piece of his mind.

Perhaps he talked about the 'art of putting a middle infielder into left field to break up 2!'

Never spoke to him, been around at an event or two...Frank has 'it.'

cush

Smitty, for the third time, what the heck is a beaner post? And, are you taking your medication? You should you know, because you float in and out of the 5th dimension. It's called all Andy all the time, a parallel universe where a younger and more driven Andy Macphail has actually had some recent recent success and doesn't stare open mouthed at his old press clippings, wondering where the glory years went. I think you are really Mr. Mxyzptlk.

Gil,
I'm just sharing a report that says the O's had the best off season. If anyone's obsessed with Macphail it is you and Wayne my friend. I never would have taken such an iron clad position on the opposite end without yours and Waynes continued obsession with Andy since I first started visiting this blog. So really, I owe it all to you.
I just hope you enjoy the fruit the tree bears after doing nothing but yelling at it while it was growing and saying "Fruit tree I want fruit NOW"
Some things take time. You bailed and now you you act as if you didn't even mention Andy in like every post you put up far at least 2 and a half years.
Cmon give me break.

Gil.
So if we win and are very competitive in year 4 of rebuilding, who should get the credit for assembling this wining team?
No fair talking about 2012 or 2010. Who's team is this right now and will you give kudos to Mr. Macphail if this season turns into the best we've had in 13 years......

or...

will you just say it was "good luck" and "Peter Angelos pushed him" and "the fans pushed him" and "it should have happened sooner" and it was "only because of Buck" and blah blah blah....

I mean how far does your hatred extend?

I applaud Buck for attempting to change the players' attitude and remind them about the glory days. I can only hope they take it to heart and play for something bigger than themselves or their paychecks.

For the record, not every reputable source liked the Orioles moves this offseason. Shall I cut and paste this article, by a respectable baseball analysist?

Who cares. Here's what Keith Law has to say about the '11 offseason via MASNsports:

http://www.masnsports.com/steve_melewski/2011/02/keith-law-criticizes-the-os-offseason-moves.html

Here's piece of what he said:

"Vlad Guerreo, if he's not toast, he's in the toaster. It doesn't make sense to acquire players like that. I understand (Nolan) Reimold had a bad year last year and Felix Pie is a flawed player. But, they cost you nothing and they have some talent. It's possible that one of those guys will actually develop into a solid big leaguer. You will never find that out if you send them back to Triple-A."

It's a long article, and the rest is in the link.

Should be an interesting read for those on the other side of the Andy Macphail spectrum.

Peter, This is why I do not post to your articles any longer. I cannot stand the negativity.

However I am reading, please keep up the good work. Good for Frank to be involved.

I know it's a long shot, but if the O's win 85 games this year and are in the WC race in Sept, what should we expect from Wayne and Gil?

10-1 odds says they try to slither back on the bandwagon and act like they're loyal and devoted fans who knew this was coming all along.

Chistopher,
Wayne and Gil's reaction to the Vlad signing will give you the best indication. Gil went online proclaiming that he had predicted the signing. He didn't note that he had been pretty much mumb on the subject since the winter meetings, and his phycic hotline was another online source that was reporting the deal as done when Baltimore sources were saying there was no word.

But Wayne took it a step better, it was "his" pressure that forced McPhail into the position having to make the Guerrero signings, Wayne was challenged to come up with one post in which he had called for Vlad's signing. He predictably didn't.

Slither back to the bandwagon? Hell, they'll be driving the thing! Wayne will be the one in the Redsox cap...

Chistopher,
Wayne and Gil's reaction to the Vlad signing will give you the best indication. Gil went online proclaiming that he had predicted the signing. He didn't note that he had been pretty much mumb on the subject since the winter meetings, and his phycic hotline was another online source that was reporting the deal as done when Baltimore sources were saying there was no word.

But Wayne took it a step better, it was "his" pressure that forced McPhail into the position having to make the Guerrero signings, Wayne was challenged to come up with one post in which he had called for Vlad's signing. He predictably didn't.

Slither back to the bandwagon? Hell, they'll be driving the thing! Wayne will be the one in the Redsox cap...

@dave

Good work my friend! I'm impressed.

I have to say that I agree with some things that Keith Law said; however I don't agree with him on Guerrero. He had a great season with Texas. I wouldn't be quick to assume he will have a terrible season here. People have been saying for 10 years that Jim Thome is toast, but I'd acquire him right now in a heart beat.

P.S

@not brooks - Ok, please don't chew my head off. I don't have evidence to support the claim about Jim Thome.

@Gil
beaner, def. noun
1.one of many names used by constant poster who also goes by Wayne bf Steve Eilerston. Anonymous among many others.
2. big Red Sox fan
3. also one who despises anything Macpahil like and who views O's fans as idiots and ignorant baffoons.

Hope that heps

For real smitty?! Are you positive that's what the definition of the word "beaner" is? I think you know what it means, because you said stinking beaner up there.

For those of you who don't know, beaner is a derrogatory racial slur directed at people of Mexican descent. According to urban stereotypes Mexicans eat a lot of beans; hence the slang beaner.

It says a lot about you Smitty. What's next? You'll start calling people stinking niggers or stinking crackers?

I think Pete ought to ban you from these posts.

You guys are hilarious. If someone did a word cloud of Pete's blog, the words "wayne", "Gil" and "smitty" would be 5x bigger than "Orioles" or "baseball".

As a boy growing up Frank was my role model. I can still remember him diving in the dirt at a high and tight pitch, getting up and instead of charging the mound would brush himself off and then knock the next pitch out of the park.

Frank is the best....the Orioles need another Frank Robby to make this team better.

Any 'Old 30' National League players available Andy?

Go Orioles> I am hoping for 90 one game winning streaks in 2011.

I think the post at 10:28 am this morning should be removed. It went over the line in that second to last sentence.

I read the blog and enjoy your entries Pete, but not some of the responses.

Mesotheliangelos,

There was a post a few weeks back by a self-described Red Sox fan who called himself "Beaner" (as in Beantown resident, ostensibly) that criticized the Orioles off-season moves.

It curiously contained many of the same grammatical and spelling errors seen in posts by wayne, who has claimed that he never posts under other names.

@PCB Rob,

How did I exactly go over the line there Rob? Because I called out someone who made a racist comment, now I'm the racist? Learn how to read my friend.

... and one more thing Rob,

How come you enjoy these blogs so much but never made a point to call out someone who calls someone who repeatedly uses the word beaner, but are awfully sensitive to someone illustrating with words like nigger or cracker? To me they are all equally negative. I'd love to read your point of view on the subject.

Don't try to act like you don't know what smitty was referring to. It's EXACTLY what anon said above. YOU are the one who's the racist on here. YOU are the one posting all the deragatory names, not smitty.

You're a deplorable pig for trying to twist it into some type of bigoted statement. I guess you're trying to make yourself feel better, being the bigot that you are, by trying to portray smitty as such.

I hope Pete bans your pathetic ass just like the last moron, jason c. You're no better. Come to think of it, you're worse.

Wow, Meso...

Bad form, fella.

@Anonymous,

I can't begin to reason with you obviously. But while you're at it, and you think you're so tough, I would be more than willing to forward you my contact info, and let's meet in person and you can say those things to my face.

...............................................................................................
Pete's reply: This is a no-no, children. Tone it down if you don't want the comments section to be restricted.

Me So, only other poster that I can remember that offered to meet another poster and settle things was Wayne.

The Beaner reference comes from a while back smitty accused Wayne of being from Boston. Yep, here in the mid atlantic region we refer to Boston fans as beantowners or sometimes just beaners.

I've used the reference myself to run Boston seat jumpers out of seats in front of mine before. Nothing makes a southie madder quicker then to call em' a beaner.

When I get em mad, and on their feet, I just hold up my Box seat tickets for the ushers who are on the way. And they get ushered back to the cheap seats...

My wife swears one of them is going to punch me once. But as I tell the beaners, go ahead and hit me, it'll be the worst 30 days you ever spent. The Baltimore Jail's a hellhole!

For what I pay for tickets, I'm not going to stare at a drunken Red Sox fan's crack and listen to their foul mouths the whole game.

Speaking of foul mouth, Me So, you need to apologize, not offer to meet other posters to man up. Those Baltimore City Jails really are Hellholes...
And you just typed out premeditiated A&B. God help you if you hurt somebody...

Smitty,

I keep asking you, what is a "beaner" post.

Mountain fan,

I did predict the Guerrero signing on Dan Connally's Blog 4 hours before it was announced. I concluded that Angelos would get involved and kick AM in his butt toget it done. Left to his own devices, Andy would not have done it. I also said at the time that it would come out that PA ordered it, which Andy later admitted. It was logical since the pressure had mounted on PA starting at fanfest and in the media.

I was not "mumb" on the subject, as you stated. I have said a half dozen times on the blog that the Vlad signing gives the Orioles a puncher's chance in the division if a lot of things go right, and I am intererested in the 2011 Orioles enough to go to sarasota for a week next month. Look MF, just because I am not a pom pom waver anymore doesn't make me any lesss a a fan. It's AM and PA that I loathe. AM for planning to lose in 2008, 2009, and 2010, and PA for 13 straight years of awful baseball.

From the comment section for the "O's: FanFest in the rear view" post ("The Schmuck Stops Here", January 30, 2011):

As a Boston fan who lives in Baltimore, it's fascinating how almost every poster last season was lobbying for AGon. But when he finally ended up with the Sox, you don't see anything ever posted.

It's like Baltimore fans just always give in to the fact that you'll sign nothing but players that no other teams want.

You all say it's tough to be competitive in the AL East. I agree with you - it is. Markets like Boston and NY simply have more dollars to spend. But what I never hear is how you guys get beat up by teams in the other divisions as well. In other words, the AL East argument only comes into play when your team could become competitive in another division.

Look at the Detroit payroll compared to yours. You're not even competitive with Detroit. And how did you guys do with the AL East teams with low payrolls? How'd you do against Toronto? How about Tampa?

You consistently roll over and accept the players you keep getting. None of your acquisitions are ever mentioned on Sportscenter, accept for a simple blurb announcing where a player may be headed. Like the Pirates of the National League, fans across the country look at the Orioles as a complete joke.

The good news for Beantowners like me is, I get great seats every time the boys come to town. And as a Bonus, I'm always assured that I'll be surrounded by fans wearing nothing but Red Sox gear.

It's going to be a good year. Sorry you didn't get Agon. Too bad you're not sorry as well.

Posted by: Beaner | January 31, 2011 1:33 PM

Ok,

Back to this ..

http://www.nesn.com/2011/02/red-sox-have-eighth-best-offseason-while-orioles-win-the-winter-according-to-wall-street-journal.html

I would only be impressed with an article like the above if it was penned in Oct of this year. As in a look back at what made the Orioles a vastly better team in 2011.

Pre season happy happy joy joy is rarely translated into real season happy happy joy joy.

Fran In Baltimore

PS: Lets keep this about baseball and less about Political Correctness. You guys are all fools to use any term that was or is currently used in a derogatory fashion to put someone down because of Race , Creed , Color , Gender etc.

I guess me calling you fools is a put down. But its a universal term which applies to everyone.

Meso, do us all a favour and leave. They're going to institute a ridiculous "hold/approval" system on the posts here like they do on the other parts of this site.

You're a mouthy idiot who is going to ruin it for the rest of us. Do you actually feel cool using those words, as if you have some kind of justification for it? Go seek professional help...and mature a little while you're at it.

Pete, please ban guys like melo instead of putting restrictions on us all.

Thanks Smitty, it sounds like it has multiple meanings. It's not a term used by my generation. I thought it meant people from Boston which is known as Beantown.

Wow Meso,
I go to work in the morning feeling like I love the hard working honest folks of all races and shades and I come home to find out I hate....what....Mexicans???
Actually some folks on here followed the line of thinking and hopefully semi amusing response to Gil. To be honest I never knew the term beaner carried the connotation you are saying.

Si will propose the following compromise
I will no longer refer to Wayne as beaner..... I will use wiener instead....Do you know if you or anyone amongst the wiener population will be offended by that?

Gil, You haven't taken time to answer my serious questions posed above at 8:10??
I mean I did give you the scoop on the beaner phenomonon
...

Gil from his post at the warehouse
"I did predict the Guerrero signing on Dan Connally's Blog 4 hours before it was announced. I concluded that Angelos would get involved and kick AM in his butt toget it done. Left to his own devices, Andy would not have done it. I also said at the time that it would come out that PA ordered it, which Andy later admitted. It was logical since the pressure had mounted on PA starting at fanfest and in the media."

Gil, this so ridiculous and self serving. You have no idea how it went down and yet you act like your ideas are facts.
Andy said no such thing. You worked at a bank right? You know what a budget is right?
What Andy said was they were over budget for this year already and Peter "allowed" him to go that far over to sign Vlad. Andy wanted Vlad and signed him. Could he have signed him without approval from Peter? Of course not. You think any GM in baseball goes around throwing 8 million around without approval from the owner. it's posts like these that reveal your extreme bias that creates some kind of irrational hatred for a man who you never met.
And "tried to lose"? That's in the top 10 of your most ridiculous reasonings. It's called rebuilding and when it comes to fruition this year you have all your reasons lined up for not giving Andy credit....sad

Who's really obsessed with Andy Macphail???

frank robinson made differences in the clubhouse, line-up and fans. coming to thirty third street to watch the o's eat up the competition was sweet, indeed.
when frank,launched one out of memorial stadium, the place exploded.
if vlad, lee, and the others do just some of what frank did, coming to opcy will be fun and that's what sports should be!!

Smitty,

I'm sorry, I didn't see questions from an 8:10 post. If you would restate them I will do my best to answer.

On Dan Connally's blog several weeks ago he asked for predictions on whether the Orioles would sign Guerrero, and what would be the outcome of the Steelers/Packers game. I predicted that the Orioles would sign Guerrero and the majority of the other posters said they would not. I also predicted the Packers would beat the Steelers and would have gotten the final score nearly correct had it not been for a late touchdown by the Steelers. Lucky guesses, of course so,

Smitty, I say that if you are not making a serious attempt to win, then you are planning to lose. Macaphail made no attempt to win in 2008, 2009, 0r 2010. You can argue that point, but you have a tough mountain to climb.

I think that there is enough evidence to suggest that Macphail had made his final offer to Guerro at 3.5 million. I feel that Angelos intervended, repoened the issue, and that if he had not, Guerrero would not have been signed. I think Andy's comments were a tacit admission of same. As usual, your blind defense of Macphail is so transparent that you just might as well come out and tell the blog what we all know...that you are related to him and blood is thicker than water. That's OK, I would defend a relative of mine too. But don't attempt to infer that you are being objective. I think Andy has done an awful job, is way over the hill, and it would hurt the franchise even more if he is retained. But that's just me.

dave in glen burnie;

Thanks for the link. Honestly though, I don't take the opinions of baseball reporters to seriously. Frankly, besides a few that have a clue what they're talking about, most of them don't have a foggy notion about what is going on.

An example: A couple of years ago, Markakis struck out about 115 times and the reporter was moaning that Nick's strikeouts were to high and he needed to get them down.

Now, I used to be a real numbers geek but had slacked off in the previous 10 years or so, so I went to the stats page and confirmed my suspicion that about 120 Ks was average for someone who played all 162 games. Nick's 115 in 160 games then was about dead average and certainly no cause for alarm.

Now there is nothing wrong for a casual fan not to know something like that but what is the excuse for a guy who earns his daily bread by writing about the subject? It's pretty abominable if you ask me.

Let's all keep that in mind about guys who write both negative or positive things about the O's. Weren't most of the baseball writers saying at this time last year that the O's would be competitive in 2010. Look at how that turned out. Let's all remember too that Keith Olberman used to be a sports reporter. Nuff said.

Anyway, thanks for the opportunity to vent my spleen. I feel better now.

"I think that there is enough evidence to suggest that Macphail had made his final offer to Guerro at 3.5 million."
Where is this evidence Gil?
Let me guess? In your own mind and in your own mind only?
There is no evidence so you make this up.
I'm not a lawyer but I think you need more than "cause I said so"
Gil,
I'm just sharing a report that says the O's had the best off season. If anyone's obsessed with Macphail it is you and Wayne my friend. I never would have taken such an iron clad position on the opposite end without yours and Waynes continued obsession with Andy since I first started visiting this blog. So really, I owe it all to you.
I just hope you enjoy the fruit the tree bears after doing nothing but yelling at it while it was growing and saying "Fruit tree I want fruit NOW"
Some things take time. You bailed and now you you act as if you didn't even mention Andy in like every post you put up far at least 2 and a half years.
Cmon give me break.

Posted by: smitty | February 24, 2011 8:02 PM

Gil.
So if we win and are very competitive in year 4 of rebuilding, who should get the credit for assembling this wining team?
No fair talking about 2012 or 2010. Who's team is this right now and will you give kudos to Mr. Macphail if this season turns into the best we've had in 13 years......

or...

will you just say it was "good luck" and "Peter Angelos pushed him" and "the fans pushed him" and "it should have happened sooner" and it was "only because of Buck" and blah blah blah....

I mean how far does your hatred extend?

Posted by: smitty | February 24, 2011 8:10 PM

Uhh.... and Gil all you have to do is scroll up till that time and you will find the questions.

And really?.....isn't it slightly immature this act you have of accusing someone of being related to someone cause they don't agree with you. I mean it's so silly....
And here I'll repost my questions since you can't scroll upwards.

Gil;

Why the cheap shot at Smitty about supposedly being a relative of AM? Weren't you the guy about a week or so ago, who in response to a post directed toward you, who said you don't engage in personal stuff with people, you just stick to the facts.

Well tit for tat. If Smitty thinks the way he does because he's supposedly a relative of AM, then you sound like a guy whose fiancee dumped him 40 years ago and ended up marrying AM instead. Get over it.

Smitty,

Ok, that's fair, here I go.

First check my 3:09 Pm post feb 4 on Dan Connolly's blog"Predictions Friday." Ok, now try to stay with me.

To prove guilt you must prove a charge beyond a reasonable doubt. There is reasonable doubt that Andy may have changed his entire approach, saw the light and upped the offer to Guerrero. However Andy Macphail's profile was always to lowball free agents even if he thought another million would get the job done.{See andy Laroche 2009}

It is my opinion that Angelos intervened and ordered the signing. Andy's makeup would never allow him to have an epiphany and nearly triple the offer. Logic.

Secondly I don't hate anyone. I give my opinion. You don't agree with it so you assume I hate. You are emotionally involved.

The years of 2008, 2009, and 2010 are relevant because the Orioles continued to drive away the fan base. The efforts by the front office to win were pitiful. Andy was planning to lose.

I can assure you smit, immaturity is not an issue that I have to deal with. You are definitely related to Andy. Probably very closely.

Gil;

Since you like to say that your dislike of AM is just because of your considered judgement and not some personal animosity then perhaps you'd like to answer a question that I've posed to you about 4 or 5 times in the last month or so and which you have avoided answering as if it were the plague.

You claimed that you were onside with AM until he failed to field a winner in 2009. In turn I asked you to give me some examples of a new GM turning around a team with a protracted losing streak like the O's were in (10 year range) with only 1 more losing season after his arrival.

The only person who took a crack at that was dave in glen bernie who came up with Lee MacPhail when he took over the O's 50 years ago in 1960. There was a large caveat to that though, in that most of the pieces of the '60 winner were already in place before he arrived.

So perhaps you can come up with another one in the last 50 years, or maybe another in the 50 years before that. That's 100 years of MLB history and if your expectation for a winner in '09 was in any way reasonable, then it should be easy to think of a few others. Go ahead Gil. Prove me wrong and knock it out of the park.

dan qz,

You don't have a dog in this fight. Or do you? Did someone just beam you in? I don't make cheap shots, I make observations. And in this case I am absolutely correct. What was the last comment in your post? Hmmmm. Interesting timing and analysis..

dan qz

Post are crossing in the mail. I said that I was on board until the offseason between 2008 and 2009 when Andy failed to make even token moves that would have improved a long suffering franchise. There is a difference between expansion team, which the Orioles essentally were in the 50's, and an established franchise that has been around for 50 years. I don't get on the blog every night therefore if you have asked this question before this is the first time I have seen your questions. I have no personal animosity towards anyone, dan. I deal in the areana of ideas. In my opinion Andy Macphail as a GM has been a miserable failure. But as a person and as a father he has been a remarkable success.

Gil;

As I knew would happen, you had the 5th or 6th opportunity to illustrate that your expectations of AM were/are perfectly reasonable by providing an example of someone, anyone, who actually managed to do what you feel AM should have done.

Once again you make no attempt to answer the question. Not surprising since you don't know of anyone who ever managed to achieve it. It says everything anyone needs to know about your position with respect to AM. Thanks for reconfirming it.

Gil;

You're right about "Post are crossing in the mail." Okay, if you never saw my question before, you have now. I will very graciously cede the point to you if you can give an example or two of someone achieving what you expected AM to achieve in the short time frame you gave him.

Seriously, I very much doubt that you can, and if you can't then it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that your expectations of him were unrealistic from the get go.

Expecting someone to do something never done before is unreasonable. Okay to hope for it. Not reasonable to expect it.

dan qz

My expectations were high when Macphail arrived here in June 2007. I expected him to take the rest of 2007 to access where team was and where it needed to go. I expected him to have decent concern that the Orioles had ten losing seasons in a row and to try to simultaneously rebuild and try to put make the team comptetitive in the short term. He did some of the former and little of the latter until this past offseason. And he did it all without a sense of urgency that the brand was losing it's value. Three lost years not counting 2007.

Gil;

Nice dodge but you're still not answering the question. Show me the precedent for expecting a 10 year losing team to be turned into a winner by the second full season of new management taking over.

Being able to quote a precedent renders expectations reasonable. Not being able to shows the opposite.

"I can assure you smit, immaturity is not an issue that I have to deal with. You are definitely related to Andy. Probably very closely."

Gils assertions to the contrary volume 11

seriously dude? You are not just joking? but you think I know Andy Macphail? Not only know him but am related to him?
I would be honored I suppose but you are close to completely irrational to be thinking such wild things.
Get a grip it's baseball and I happen to like Andy and respect his accomplishments (2 world Series teams which you deride and minimize).
All I've said for over 2 years is for folks like you to chill and see what happens. What has happened in Andy's plodding deliberate way is he has reshaped the complete organization from top to bottom and we are finally headed in the right direction after 13 losing years.
We will probably be very competitive this year after he has totally made over the 40 man roster he was given in 2007 (which was pitiful btw). Now we have a roster that some would have winning a division if we were in another division.
But what's the point even talking with you? If you really believe because of my viewpoint I must be a relative, you are just kind I've wacky, with all due respect. But you did manage to avoid answering the question about who should get credit for assembling this team if it does really well? Will you give a hip hip hooray for one Uncle Andy?....oops..

dan qz,
I'm guessing there is no such team or GM as noted by the deafening silence to your question.
Also, I'm assuming we are cousins or something cause only Andy's relatives and close friends have been patient through the rebuild.
see ya cuz...look forward to seeing you in Andy's booth during opening day. I think I have the 4th and 5th innings reserved..

smitty;

Honestly, I can't think of a such an awful team, as the O's were at the time AM took over, being turned around that quickly. Maybe I'm wrong but this question has been floating around out there for over a month and, given the number of AM haters there are, you'd think one or two of them would have referenced a few examples just to shut me up. No takers so far.

If we were looking at the O's using just the facts and not letting passion get involved, you could advocate that Andy's only mistake so far has been not losing enough.

If the O's would have lost a little more in 2008 and 2009 Andy could have been watching Stausberg and Harper in Sarasota this spring.

I haven't heared anything about this but has Earl been in camp or are there plans for him to be?

Fellas -

The only teams we can compare the Orioles to are the Pirates and Royals.

The Pirates haven't had a winning season since, yikes, 1992. They got rid of Dave Littlefield and hired Neal Huntington in September of 2007, and they've gotten progressively worse: 68 wins in 2007, 67 in 2008, 62 in 2009, 57 in 2010.

The Royals have a little blip on the losing radar in 2003, when they won 83 games, but, really, they haven't been good since the late 80's, early 90's. The Royals hired Dayton Moore in the middle of the 2006 season, and they've been bad since then.

You guys definitely have a case here - a team that has been bad to terrible for well over a decade can't be turned around overnight - but you also have to look at the moves made instead of just saying "you can't turn a bad franchise around over night".

Have the moves that Andy has made been made with a look towards improving for the long term in the future? Aside from the Bedard and Tejada trades, you would have to say no.

After those two trades and up until this season, every MacPhail move has been for a lower-tier player in his 30's (Wigginton, Tejada, Atkins, etc) or a failed prospect with hopes of finding his way in a change of scenery (Pie, Hill, etc.). And, heck, even the moves made this season are mostly just for this season. Sure you could make a case that Lee and Vlad will resign if they have good years, but will they have good years? Will they stay healthy? If they do, can they be counted on to produce in 2012 at 36 and 37? Hardy's a one year fix too, if he's even healthy enough to be a fix (here's hoping).

Just my two cents. As always, you have to dig deeper.

smitty, Dan qz et al

Stop trying to bull***t me. I have been up and down the pole too long. You are also dan qz and you answer yourself. You are related to Andy. Closely. Ignore my posts from now on and I will reciprocate.

not brooks;

Thanks for your input. To be clear though about why I raised the point, it was very specific to comments Gil made, not as a be-all catch-all retort to anyone with critical comments about AM's performance.

What Gil said was that he became critical when AM failed to field a winner by '09. To me that was just way overly optimistic, hence I asked him for any kind of precedent for someone turning around a truely awful franchise in such a short time frame. I mean, I scratched my head quite a bit, did a little looking back, and couldn't think of or find any example of that ever happening.

As to another point you make, I don't mean to seem like I'm quibbling, but the Sherrill trade for Bell and Johnson was a deal made with the future in mind.

My take on AM is that his philosophy of trying to accumulate as many good young pitchers as he can is the right way to go. Identify those in the minors who can help, then trade for and/or draft others to help out.

I think we've made decent to good progress on that front which I see as key to being able to sign guys, if not top tier then at least top of the 2nd tier, who can make us truely competitive.

Let's face facts. Lee and Vlad didn't want to come here. They only did because the market dried up. If they wouldn't have if given better options, what realistic likelihood is there that even better players would?

To my mind, we'll become an attractive place to come to when we have put together a solid winning season, when we have a solid 4 or 5 young starting pitchers ala Oakland a few years back who have done it on the field, not just who show potential, backed up by a solid core of good young talented position players.

Overall, despite some missteps, AM has us a lot closer to being there than we were 3 years ago. For that AM generally deserves passing grades, even if there is some negative remarks on his report card.

Let's all hope that our stating kid pitchers blossom as well as Jones, Weiters, Pie etc. It's key to us ever becoming truely competitive.

Gil;

Boy, suffering from a little bout of paranoia tonight are we. I'll tell you what, how about you, I and Smitty make a little wager on that. Let's bet $500 on your proposition which can be verified by asking Pete to have Sun techies verify or refute what you claim. To make it worth Pete's effort, let's commit to making the cheque out to the charity of his choice. I'm game for it if you and Smitty are. Care to put your money where your mouth is or is this just more of your usual bombast?

Gil,
Let me get his straight.

1.I'm related to Andy
2.dan qz and me are the same person
3. Reynolds will never hit .225

I think that's called 3 strikes in baseball

That's Ok I've been wrong before also and will again....
but it does sound like you need to just chill a little