Wow. Do you think MacPhail and Angelos are at all phased by the fact that a soccer game is drawing twice the average attendance at an Orioles game this year? Or that the Ravens drew fans more to a practice than the Orioles have to more than 10% of their games this year? Excluding special games (e.g., opening day, or series in which New York and Boston fans fill the seats), the Orioles are averaging around 17,000 fans a game this year, while the Ravens can pull 12,000 to a practice.

At this point, I think a book signing at the local Barnes and Noble can reliably draw as many customers as an Orioles game.

Good luck to Showalter turning this mess around, and here's hoping that MacPhail gets his head out of his a$$ and does what he needs to do, and promised to do, in order to make this team into a winner.

True Story.............

The worst things to happen to AM was having to fire Dave Trembley when he did.

By doing so, he knew the spotlight would shine brightly on him (where it should have been all along). He had no choice however, since PA wanted a change.

Then the struggle of hiring a new manager began. He wanted a good soldier (Wedge) while PA wanted a firecracker (Dempsey).

But Andy held firm against Rick, thus why things dragged on the way they did.

As a compromise, AM and PA agreed on Buck (PA's 2nd choice).

You see...these kind of power plays tend to take a minute, or AM would have hired Wedge as soon as possible.

Without the power struggle, Wedge would be the manager and again, the spotlight would be off of AM.

But there was a struggle, thus things dragged on. And the longer things dragged on, the more people began looking at AM as being the sole reason for the current embarrassment.

It wasn't the local media that was getting on AM for what he's done to this team...... it was the fans. As the fans got louder, things became unusually uncomfortable in the warehouse.

Andy finally backed down. He had to. He had to get some heat off of himself. Plus, he wasn't winning the stare down contest with PA. No one wins those against one of the best lawyers in the country.

You don't play chicken with Peter Angelos.

I'm getting on a plane, but sometime this weekend, perhaps I'll let you in on how much $ Buck was making at ESPN. Then maybe you'll see why managing the O's was important to him..... especially since no one has been knocking on his door for a few years now.

By the way..... I believe Buck is the right man for the job. Only if he has player personnel control though. Otherwise, he's meaningless.

TPIIPAOP

i don't see where there will be any ratings challange for masn tongiht. the soccer game will win out. as for the orioles it was anounced on masn around 1:20 p.m. that the orioles will not be making any trades. they had a possible deal for wigginton, but andy again did not pull the trigger.

Wayne, gil , not brooks, and the rest of the guy's that stuck together through out this ordeal i want to say thanks.It sure feels great to finally have a manager who has some credibility instead of the last 3 managers who the players had no respect for. I really don't know if the wins and losses are going to change any under buck because you still need some ball players to win games especial;ly in this division but at least i know who will be in total charge.The two favorite son's brian and nick will be just like the other 25 ball players from now on under buck, and you can believe if they don't want to do things his way then they will hit the highway.It feels really good to once again cheer for your team to win instead of hoping they lose so that a change will have to take place.I still believe in my heart that andy has destroyed this team with his old fashion approach. Only time will really tell.

Bob,

The current team needs to be blown up. There are just too many holes for even a daring GM willing to take risks, and with an unlimited budget to fill, let alone Andy. It's sad to say, but the team is beyond rebuilding. There is little to build with. Markakis, Jones and Wieters are the position player nucleous. Sure, we have some good young arms, but they won't develop playing under the current paradigm. I would rather see wholesale changes and trades at all levels of the organization this winter than suffer through the Chinese water torture of a "Plan" that Andy is fumbling with. If they blow it up and do it right this time, we could be competitive in three years. in my opinion, there is no way to fix the current mess through attrition.

deadline.

nothing yet.

Luke Scott to Rays makes a bunch of sense for both clubs. Luke being under-control and cheap, braces them against Pena going sorta, and a DH type familiar with AL East pitchers. And Rays have a bunch of young ss/2b types for O's. Seems like a pretty good match for trades...but of course...that's counting before they hatch.

ESPN reporting Ohman to the Marlins and the Sun has nothing on it. What a shocker.

paulie,

I agree, good call. I also think the Twins might be interested in Scott what with the uncertainty of Justin Morneau's return.

wayne

If Angelos was so highly in favor of Dempsey, why wasn't he hired the 4 other times he interviewed in the past? Maybe so. Maybe Angelos was more in favor of Dempsey, though I don't understand the claim.

If you can remember it, copy and paste the link you got this information from and post it here. I'd like to read it. I'm not questioning you, but it sounds to me like whereever you got this from is blowing smoke.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vanderi01.shtml

Rick Vanden Hurk's numbers.

Congratulations to Jim Gentile on winning the RBI Title.....49 years later. Will the Orioles do right by honoring him for this accomplishment? They should.

Story:
http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2010/07/29/orioles-should-do-right-by-jim-gentile/?icid=main|main|dl2|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fmlb.fanhouse.com%2F2010%2F07%2F29%2Forioles-should-do-right-by-jim-gentile%2F

hey dave - think the O's will pay Jim his $5000 bonus for the RBI title?

Gil,

AMEN brother! Blow it up! We need to consider anyone who improves what we have. Last year the Warehouse said the free agent pool was bad. I think there were at least 10 players who would have improved our team. Vlady, Hinske, to name just two!

Bottomline: Spends some money and don't overvalue our talent!

Here we go. "Showalter to retain O's staff". In other words - Meet the new Boss, same as the old Boss.

I'm guessing Showalter keeps the same staff for the rest of this season, but then hopefully brings in a whole new cast for 2011. That's what I'm hoping anyway.

Ugh

Dag gone AL East

The Plan Is In Place And On Pace

Fire Showalter

If this team goes into next season with Hernandez in a set-up role and Simon as the closer, expect about 50 wins again. Gonzalez not the answer either, but we all knew that. Everyone that is except the GM.

All in All an excellent week for the O's.

Stability in the managers chair (a great move to get Buck)
a couple decent trades....I'm sure more to come in August

Look.... Hernandez had a bad night. He'll rebound.
Great to see Bergesen get another shot and make the most of it!
I'm thinking Jones is gone this offseason in a trade for a bat and Angle is our center fielder next opening day.

Love to see Millwood put together 2 real good starts in a row and move him. He should definitely clear waivers. Of course he also could be done for his career...but hope not.
Will be fun to see what happens when Buck gets here!
Oh and Reimold is really heating up..

Not very smart

Fire Showalter....

Pearls of Wisdom from Anonymous.

Come on Anonymous....

come up with something better then that especially when your Anonymous.

How about Fire Anonymous from the board.

All Anonymous posts should be banned from blogging.

In fact leave your home phone or cell number so we can call you. So you can tell us how you really feel.

I predicted 85 wins this year and I'll predict 85 wins next year.....
There now write that down, so you can come on here next year and admit that my accuracy is 50%.

50% smitty ?

That was probably your success rate in HS until you dropped out too

As a late-to-the-party anti-MacPhail guy, I do have to give kudos for the Ohman-for-VanDenHurk trade. First, I have seen his last name as one, two and three words with assorted capitalizations and lower-case usages. Second, I know the trade wasn't a blockbuster but it would have taken a Markakis or a dozen of included players for there to be one.

The link supplied above shows VDH's major league numbers. It is rather ho-hum. But, his minor league stats are rather impressive, including nearly 200 innings at AAA with a 1.24 WHIP. His BB/K ratio is pretty good and they compare well to IP as well.

Yeah, minor league stats don't mean squat when the major league stats aren't of the same level. And dealing with AL teams with a DH does cause some pause. I'm not oblivious to that.

However, VDH is only 25. That makes him two years younger than the expected full maturity level of MLB pitchers, and he is seven years younger than Ohman.

Ohman was having a nice season, something that stands out on the Orioles right now. But, let's face it. Having a lefty specialist in the bullpen on this current team is akin to having a plastic surgeon on hand for someone that just got run over by a truck. Sure, it's nice to have but let's save the patient first.

I'm not sure what to make of all of the hoopla over MacPhail's and Angelos's first, second, whatever-th choices for manager. If Angelos really wanted Dempsey and MacPhail negotiated a compromise, it says two things to me.

First, Angelos is not one who is known for compromising. Call him a great lawyer or a stubborn SOB (I have heard both from those who know and maybe the truth is both rather than one or the other), he doesn't do compromises. For a subordinate of someone who has no partners in his firm to gain a compromise shows MacPhail has some moxy of his own.

Second, for MacPhail to go toe-to-toe with Angelos over this hiring, he must not be all that impressed with the spotlight being shown on him.

All of this is assuming the cardinal ranking of choices are genuinely true and had a significance beyond just a general ranking list when the discussions began. Given how little info leaks from The Warehouse, I'm not sure I will be convinced of any truth in this matter.

One central issue could be who is making what decisions and how those eventual decisions are being made. Fair enough. It is also nothing new, again, if true.

Finally, the Gentile story is an interesting one. The $5,000 bonus talk is cute and quaint. It could be a clever PR move by an organization who has been somewhat vacuous in that department in recent decades.

If one really is going to take the $5,000 bonus concept seriously, there are three flaws if "obligation" is being tossed in as well. One, five grand in 1962 dollars (I know the shared RBI title was 1961 but more on that in a moment) is a heck of lot more in 2010 dollars. It would be a heck of lot more than five big if just simple interest would be attached.

Two, we are talking three ownerships ago with this.

Three, the word "bonus" is being used freely but having read the link, it is being used incorrectly. Supposedly (and nothing is in writing for those who like to speak of legal canon ad nauseum), the talk was his contract would have been worth $5,000 more had Gentile won the RBI title. At the time of the contract, he had not yet won the RBI title.

Furthermore, it was not a bonus. For it to have been a bonus, it would have been stated in his 1961 contract that if he did such-and-such, he would have gotten such-and-such.

From a PR standpoint, it would be clever and nice to so something in 2011 marking the 50th anniversary of the newly acquired RBI title. Maybe the Maris family could be flown in and be given a silver-plated asterisk as well. Maybe not. Whatever, as long as Angelos doesn't start giving a speech that day, I would be okay with it.

Good job Andy! Way to look like a clown again and be this years trade deadline loser!!! Why is Wiggy and Luke Scott on the team still?? This organization is just insane! Cant wait to see Buck work with these fools.. Its probably in his contract to be a puppet for Angelo$.. This shit is just sad!

The only reason Showalter is keeping the current coaching staff is because it was part of his contract or Angelos forced the issue. Buck has to know he is going to fail here working for Angelos but hes going to get paid and not take too big a rep hit.

Remember a couple of years ago when Mora and Huff were on fire? Yeah, and MacFail didn't trade either of them? Remember the following season they both sucked terribly? Yeah, vintage MacFail right there. Why Wiggy and Scott were not traded is beyond me. There was definitely a lot of interest about both of these players. Plus Wiggy is a free agent at the end of the year isn't he?

MacFail is an idiot.

Smitty- Will you admit you are an idiot when they don't win 85 next year?

joefoss,

What smitty isn't saying? He said the exact same thing the previous year. He says it every year hoping he'll be right at some point. It's way past the point where he has any cred whatsoever. He likes to talk about Andy's two rings, but as someone has said on here, he did so before the internet. As Bill Murray would say 'he's got that going for him'.

Losers follow losers. Losers also make predictions that never come true, only to make the same predictions for the future. In this case, smitty is very unlucky. He can't even get the law of averages to work in his favor.

Like all remaining Oriole fans, all I'm interested in is Macphail telling us how he plans to put a winning team on the field next year. No more physchobabble about wins and losses being important. If he can't have that conversation and give us hope, he needs to go. Enough is enough. The team still has the same needs going into 2011 that it had going into 2010........ two corner infielders with power{who can also field the position}, a big right handed bat, a closer, and two established top of the line starting pitchers. The talk of rebuilding should be over as he enters his 5th season next year. We are all weary of looking ahead to another season like this one which drags painfully on. As I said earlier, I would rather see Andy blow it up again rather than go into next year with many of the same players, plus an additional washed up veteren or two added over the winter.

Macphail has made zero progress since he has been here, so anybody who claims I want "instant gratification" is waxing over andy's awful meandering trip as GM of the Orioles. He has done nothing, and I mean NOTHING to improve the product on the field at the Major League level.

I say either blow it up Andy, fix it now, or get the hell out of town and let someone else have a shot. You had yours. Do something, or as it is said, lead, follow, or get out of the way. It is absolutley ridiculous that Oriole fans have to put up with going into another season planning to lose. A season is a terrible thing to waste.

Gil,

I'm looking at how Arizona has decided to "blow it all up", and if that doesn't scare you, I dunno what will. Those guys put themselves years from getting back to where they were at. I'd hope it's a shinning example of seeing things through the hard times, rather than, when tough times come realizing that there are no guarantees with "when" on development.

Anyway, Arizona right now looks like the most lost ship I've seen in a while. The Haren trade alone should re-enforce how Andy is a good GM. (Bedard is a notch bellow Haren...and yet Bedard got a much much better haul than Haren).

imho.

Gil,

This team should have been "blown-up" 3 1/2 seasons ago. The expectation when Andy MacPhail took the team was that on his 3rd year the team would be at least at 500 and at best fighting for the wild card. He didn't set those expectations; however that's what most fans expected. Fans didn't go in thinking this is a 10 year plan. They were willing to give MacPhail the benefit of the doubt for the first season and and half.

The Showalter move was a good one, but it was almost forced by fan pressure and business bottom line. What worries me is the fact that the current coaching staff will be retained. Even if they are replaced by next opening day, this tells me that this organization is in no hurry to put a winning season anytime soon.

There needs to be a sense of urgency; however I don't see it. It seems like Angelos is defying the fans with his lackadaisical approach to running this organization. The only way you show the fans this losing won't be accepted is by blowing it up. Blowing it up will mean firing people at every level, eating up contracts, hiring new people and paying more money. That's why you won't see that happen.

Jim Palmer.....

great interview on 1057......

I'll paraphrase, but I'm sure anyone can get a transcript. It was actually prior to last nights game (replayed today).

Pertaining to Matusz, Tillman and Arrieta: He's tired of each of them saying after the game that 'i was in a groove until....'. No you weren't, said Palmer. You were walking people, pitching from behind, giving up runs. How is that a groove?

He also said that it's one thing to be up here to continue to show what you have, but at some point there has to be progress. That none of these guys have shown improvement or progress.

He went on to site other players of the same age throughout the league who are in fact showing progress, who are improving. And he doesn't put as much stock into innings experience in the majors. He said a 24 year old has thrown the same amount of pitches whether in AA, AAA or the bigs. The question is, are they improving? Our guys are only getting worse at the major league level.

Palmer put much it it on coaching. He thinks these guys just have the wrong mindset, say the wrong things, etc.....

He said the same about the position coaches as well.

All that said, he believes Buck will change most of this. That finally there will be accountability with the coaches and players. Something he hasn't seen that up until now.

So my question for everyone who is into the Plan is........ WHY?

If the Plan is working and if AM has things under control, then why is everything out of control?

Why, in AM's fourth year as head of baseball operations, is there just now (and only now) a glimmer of hope that there could be improvement.... only because Buck will be here?

Isn't there something completely out of whack and wrong with the entire premise?

How has AM's time spent not been a total wast of time to this point?

I've been seeing some really good things coming from the local media lately. Kevin Cowherd did a great piece the other day, and now Jim Palmer (sort of the media) tells it like it is in a way that was incredibly refreshing.

It's a start....

Tonight is probably our best chance for a win, with Kyle Davies on the hill for the Royals.

Tomorrow, we're facing a guy I've never heard of who has just 12 career starts. That's a shutout waiting to happen.

Saturday is Bergesen vs. Greinke. I think we all know how that one's going to end.

Sunday is probably Millwood vs. Bruce Chen. Two former Braves, both in baseball exile, battling for their souls on the Sabbath. Who... Will... Win..?

Posted by: not brooks | July 29, 2010 11:29 AM

I'm getting awful good at this prediction game.

paulie,

The current situation with the Orioles scares me more than anything Arizona has done. At leat Arizona had a position to be set back from. The Orioles are going nowhere, and there is no plan that anybody can really explain, even Andy. Macphail said that the team was in Phase Two before the season started. I can't wait to see phase 3, which must be to lose 130 games, if phase 2 is any example. Come on paulie, saying Andy is a good GM based on what? He made a few trades. How long is he going to live off the Bedard trade? Paulie, performance and success are measured by results in all facets of business and life...not empty promises and theories.

Andy has failed by any measure so far and there is no way to defend what he has done until the team wins. The team, as currently constructed can be expected to do next year bascially what it did this year. Why should we expect different results? Don't worry, Andy is fixated in the anal stage of development and isn't capable of even conceiving massive change. As I said, he probably stands in front of the dairy counter for 30 minutes trying to decide whether to buy parkay or butter.

Meso,

It doesn't take a Mensa member to look at the current roster, then the minor league system and deduce that the Orioles will be losers for the forseeable future unless drastic changes are made and much more talent is brought in from the outside. I agree with what you said that most fans thought there would be improvement by the third year.

I said when Macphail was hired that I thought it was a good move, but that it was a mistake not to make him arcticulate short term goals and benchmarks and a timetable for winning.
It doesn't matter if someone's job is making sales calls, fixing cars, or running a major league baseball team. Show me a process with no measurable goals and I will show you a failure every time.

Lets see...

not brooks patting himself on the back...

gil and wayne saying how awful AM has been.....

and me saying.....

Patience The plan is in place and on pace shout out to Wayne

not much has changed around here...

Andy making some good deals....nabbing Buck...good trades...probably more to come..

phase 3 around the corner..thats the phase that includes fighting for a playoff spot....

believe me If Buck didn't believe (like me and Joe Maddon and many other smart baseball folks) that the O's were closer than it may appear...he wouldn't be coming here.....unless of course he is stupid

"Blow it all up" is a nice, comprehensive expression of being all-inclusive. It implies starting over.

The nice thing about starting over is a fresh slate gives you the opportunity to go into a bold new direction -- even if that direction is a tied and true one used by others in the past. The bad thing is you are probably staring at a three- to five-year window of getting back to .500.

(I won't use "respectability" because everyone knows what that means but many define it differently.)

The Orioles are in dire situation and have been for many years. The Orioles have to be considered 40-1 shots at getting to .500 next year regardless of who is in control and will be done.

Therein lies the problem with both arguments. MacPhail has done far too little to allow one to think the Orioles will be at .500 by 2012 or even 2013. A complete work-over may yield similar or even worse results.

I do not subscribe to either camp.

But, I do have a foot in the doorway of both camps.

The Orioles could genuinely make 2012 the 82-win season while 2011 needs to be a stepping stone. They need to attack the offseason (which started June 1 by the way) with urgency.

They also need to attack on all fronts. That means they can build their farm system (which takes about ten years anyway) while trading and buying quality players along the way. The team can go in a positive direction without having to wait for another decade to see who develops and who doesn't, and they can go in a positive direction without hitting the restart button.

I am not convinced MacPhail is the right person for this. It would be nice if he is since we the fans now have him. His record in Baltimore shows little urgency and less flexibility. He has even shown a penchant for undoing his own one-trick pony approach.

The problem may be Angelos himself. Before you go DUH, I mean even if Angelos has seen the light and would like to be a better owner, he may have his own reputation as being the speed bump. The area where the Orioles need to be blown up is in the front office, in the scouting department, in the player development department, and, yes, the PR department, too.

Therein lies the double-edged sword awaiting a kindler, gentler Peter the Grate. If he does what needs to be done, he will in effect be confirming his own reputation. There are many die-hards who want the overall change in these departments, but will howl foul by the owner if he tosses the lot out.

The only way Angelos can do what needs to be done so others can do what needs to be done is for him to come out and admit some of the blame. Even an apology would go light years towards the beleaguered fans such as myself.

It is hard to imagine a successful, prideful, self-made billionaire doing such a thing when stubbornness has served him well. And I am sure he has felt he has made proper decisions but felt betrayed by those he entrusted.

Too bad.

The best course of action might just start with Angelos blowing his pride up one day in a public execution mea culpa style. He could then be free to hire the right people who could do things more transparently. And I think people who don't know him (like me) would grow to like him.

Smitty,

Here's the problem, as I see it. Wayne and I and Bob have the numbers to back up our arguments that since 2007 Andy was a failure, is currently a failure, and has done nothing to change the paradigm unless you count the two blockbuster deals he made this week{Har Har}

On your side of the argument are theories, and nebulous promises of patience for unknown dates at unknown times. You are almost putting words in Andy's mouth because at no time has he ever promised or predicted that the team would win. Your last comment about Showalter, "unless of course he is stupid" is as good an expanation as any as to why he would take the job. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad the Orioles have finally hired a Manager with previous major League experience. What difference will it make unless he gets a Major League roster to work with next year? My guess is that by Mid 2011 Showalter will be beaten down by this awful organization, run by the the worst owner and GM in major league baseball. To support my argument, I refer you to the standings. That's reality.

smitty,

What phase was this year, 2010? Pete calls it the 'lost year'... AM has said it was a 'big step backwards'.

The young players not only didn't improved, they regressed.

The off season acquisitions were possibly the worst in the history of major league baseball.

There remains zero position help in AA or AAA.

There are just as many, if not more holes then there were going into 2010.

Attendance is down yet again.

The national press, and now the local press is no longer as optimistic.

Seriously smitty.... without giving one of your usual sarcastic type responses, what part of the Plan was considered a 'big step backwards' or 'the lost season'. Was it phase 2?

Which phase was Jim Palmer talking about on the radio today? The part where there has been no accountability and zero improvement? Was that part of the Plan the last 3 years?

Is Jim now saying that we skipped the first two phases, but now we'll really get started because we have a manager that will change the culture?

What happened to AM changing the culture?

Seriously smitty, what was Phase 2? Since everything I've said is factual, then what has everyone missed?

Can you give an answer without being generic or sarcastic?

It's a real question that I'm sure many would love the answer to.

Give us something real smitty. If you're going to say that phase 2 was the natural maturation of the developing players, then fine. I guess we'll dismiss what Palmer said. But what about everything else?

I think the projections and generics should stop around here. Hope has become ridiculous and blind. Saying 'we'll win 85 games' just becomes nonsense after a while. Continuing to rely on baseball america and such just becomes silly when they're wrong most of the time (about O's anyway).

I guess I'm just asking you for something of substance..... without you having to fall back on being a smart ass or sarcastic.

Maybe I'm just missing something. I hope I am

smitty -

I apologize for smirking at the fact that I've been able to easily predict the epic failures of this miserable excuse for a baseball team.

I also apologize for not being as hopeful as you are. A .700 losing percentage will do that to a man.

Have a nice day.

in all serioussness, you guys set your timetable on this massive rebuild so now you can say it should be done "we are right" Call it 3 years or 4 makes no difference. Thats your timeline and it's flawed...
If the timeline was 3 years then of course you look to be right...but
your timeline was flawed...
we are having a terrible year and alot of young players regressed... does that mean they will never be as good as thought? no it just means we've taken a step backwards.

lots of good things going on in the minors and hopefully some of this young pitching gets straightened out.

i'm just optimistic and hopeful...I know that makes me an idiot on here...but thats OK I just like the O's and Andy and he does have a track record of success. I do trust AM to get this thing back on track and with Buck here that should really help You can't have enough good baseball minds to fix this thing.
You all continually mock the fact that the O's were in extrememly poor shape when AM got here and you all are the ONLY people I have read that actually think things are worse now. I mean this years. record may be worse but thats not the whole story...

Bottom line is I don't blame Macpahil for the first 10 years including through 07

I am very willing to give this team another offseason and at least halfway through next year before I make further judgements on success or failure of the massive rebuild

byw

since it's obvious the singning of top free agents is very difficult for this team right now... because top free agents want money AND winning
I am hopeful AM gets creative with someone put on waivers this year and I also think there will be some good trades this offseason..more hopefulness I know, but no matter what else you say about the guy, he has shown the ability to get good value in trades.

smitty -

Could you please inform me of the "lots of good things going on in the minors"?

Aside from some solid pitchers like Britton and Berry, I'm not seeing much of anything, especially when it comes to offense.

By the way...

Another just fantastic start from Millwood today. I'll tell you, there's nothing like falling behind 3-0 in the first inning every time old Milly steps on the hill.

But chin up, fellas, we've only got to face first or second place teams in 21 of 28 games in August. I'm sure things will be looking up for the patented September surge. Wait, what's that you say? This team always nosedives in September? Oh, right. Well, at least our winning percentage will be over .100!

Wayne,

I agree 100% with Palmer. This team is not being managed/coached right. Milwood has a crazy streak of blowing up the game in the first inning. Why hasn't Kranitz figured it out by now. Watch tape for crying out loud.

The pitchers are not conditioned well. 80+ pitches and the game gets out of hand. That's on the coaches as well, and the entire minor league system for that matter.

MacPhail needs to go. As easy as that. Peter Angelos is an idiot. If you can't see the damage this clown is doing to your brand, you're either dumb or an accomplice.

As an aside rant:

I'm sick and tired of MASN TV announcers and "baseball" experts justifying what the team or any given player does. I understand you can't say they suck terribly, but do us a favor and don't say a thing. Talk about some other crap. I obviously come back to watch because I'm a fan, not because I put hot sauce on your BS and swallow it.

I've resorted to watching the game with the sound turned off.

Smitty,

Anybody with a pulse who follows the O's knew that you can't ask for anything in the first couple or years; however as MacPhail said, this year is about wins and losses. This is not about being right or wrong. This is about the reality of the situation. If this year was about wins and losses, why is it one of the worst years recorded in the history of the game?

Wouldn't it be fair to assume that the plan has failed? You're giving him another year before you judge him. That's also arbitrary.

So, every time MacPhail makes a move (hires/fires managers), the timeline gets extended?

As Gil has repeatedly said, you can't win if you don't set clear goals and expectations. How are you going to lead an organization without a stated goal? How are you going to run any business successfully without stating your goal and plan for success?

What in the heck is grow the arms and buy the bats? It's a slogan, that's all it is. That's not a plan.

RE: Clear goals and expectations.

What not clear about winning, and turning a franchise around?

Oh, your looking for the exact date. The time and second that the goal will be accomplished? I'd imagine that moment could be in many different forms...

Would landing the Biggest Free Agent in the world be the moment?

How about in the race by All-Star break?

Would it be it if the media said "the O's are in it"?

You want to know "when" winning will happen and respectability will occur...I can't imagine a more subjective notion.

And you want smitty or others to tell you "when"...

The honest answer is...not a moment before winning happens, will winning happen.

That's why Andy doesn't say "when", because how the heck can you figure out who is/isn't going to be good from youth, and who is/isn't going to be available for trades and free agency.

You want the future predicted?...who wouldn't.

Re: Facts and numbers.

To claim "we have facts and numbers, you use incomplete sentences and mumbo-jumbo", is disingenuous at the least.

There are "facts and numbers" to both sides. Let's all be adult enough to realize there have been numerous examples by each side. Trouble is, the other side of the argument totally rejects or minimizes the others with "yes but..." or "that doesn't matter."

Numbers are clear cut. The interpretation of them may not be. Eg: what does a poor BB/K rate mean... a bad player? A bad year? A learning curve? Swinging at everything? Poor strike zone eye and Not Swing at anything? The number is an indicator. The number is a fact. But what does the number/fact "mean" is the question. How you apply the facts is as relevant as the fact itself.

My favorite one, and you guys have it dead to rights.

"Look at the Wins/Losses record!!! Andy made it worse every year. Thus Andy is bad."

Simple, clean, perfect. Can't hold a discussion with that. Totally true.

So, if your evaluation of a GM's job begins with, and ends with, Wins and Losses...nothing can be said.

Fortunately, there's more to turning a club around than Wins and Losses. For a time.

Smitty gives Andy till mid-next season. I'm good through 2012. 5 years, to turn an AL East team into a contender. To think it can happen sooner is, well, a bit optimistic.

paulie,

Measurable goals, benchmarks and checkpoints are necessary in any profession in order to get committment from a manager or executive. Macphail has been coy about any timetable because he wasn't pinned down up front when he was hired...therefore there is no sense of urgency on his part to commit to anything. We all would like to be paid handsomely for an executive position without consequences or accountability if we fail to perform. Who wouldn't?

How about this bold statement from Macphail after this season is over..."It is our intention to have a winning season in 2011." If he can't make that statemant he has no business in that position. I'm sure there are Baseball executives that would take that challenge even with the Orioles. If you don't expect to win, you won't.

Paulie,

Gil stole my thunder, but I don't think that's a bold statement. Should be the expectation every year. How about making that statement? The Yankees GM approaches every year with one goal, and that's to win the World Series, but Andy MacPhail can't even say that he expects the ball club to have a winning season?

What

wayne,

You posed this to smitty, but I couldn't resist giving it a roll.

Q: What phase was this year, 2010? Pete calls it the 'lost year'... AM has said it was a 'big step backwards'.

A: The learning phase.

Q: The young players not only didn't improved, they regressed.

A: Statistically accurate. Also statistically accurate is how common it is for young players to take time to adjust to the Majors. Evan Palmer talks about the biggest jump is AAA to the Majors. The other night we had gone through Phil Hughes comparisons with the young 3 arms of the O's.

Q: The off season acquisitions were possibly the worst in the history of major league baseball.

A: Fact, huh? You need to prove that or you should admit your being overly rhetorical here. History of Baseball?? Come on now...bring it back down. Gonzo hasn't even pitched 10 innings...but it's a fact he sucks, huh... Atkins, obviously that didn't work out. And Miggy was fine. Not great, not a detriment either.

Q: There remains zero position help in AA or AAA.

A: There are guys down there, but no, they are not ready for the Majors. Riemold, Tyler Hanson, Brandon Waring, and Joseph Mahoney are all doing there little parts. Maybe you mean middle infielders? I think Andy is aware of that.

Q: There are just as many, if not more holes then there were going into 2010.

A: Yeap.

Q: Attendance is down yet again.

A: Yeap.

Q: The national press, and now the local press is no longer as optimistic.

A: There are various accounts...this one goes both ways. FEW of them, I might add, claim it's an issue with the Talent not being good.

Q: Seriously smitty.... without giving one of your usual sarcastic type responses, what part of the Plan was considered a 'big step backwards' or 'the lost season'. Was it phase 2?

A: Learning.

Q: Which phase was Jim Palmer talking about on the radio today? The part where there has been no accountability and zero improvement? Was that part of the Plan the last 3 years?

A: Jim is referring to Manager's. One has changed now. So then, that's the right direction, yes?

Q: Is Jim now saying that we skipped the first two phases, but now we'll really get started because we have a manager that will change the culture?

A: ....huh?

Q: What happened to AM changing the culture?

A: Oh... I think he just did change the culture by hiring the right guy.

Q: Seriously smitty, what was Phase 2? Since everything I've said is factual, then what has everyone missed?

A: I guess you thought that when all players come up from AAA they're instantly successful, and reach their potential in under a year.

Q: Can you give an answer without being generic or sarcastic?

A: The same to you my friend.

Q: It's a real question that I'm sure many would love the answer to.

A: (see previous)

Q: Give us something real smitty. If you're going to say that phase 2 was the natural maturation of the developing players, then fine. I guess we'll dismiss what Palmer said. But what about everything else?

A: Oh, you knew all along. Dismiss Palmer, gosh why? Again, Andy did change the culture.

Q: I think the projections and generics should stop around here. Hope has become ridiculous and blind. Saying 'we'll win 85 games' just becomes nonsense after a while. Continuing to rely on baseball america and such just becomes silly when they're wrong most of the time (about O's anyway).

A: I think this is a time-line issue. Baseball America rates talent, not the time it takes for the talent to return maximum potential. Who can say when a player will become a Player.

Q: I guess I'm just asking you for something of substance..... without you having to fall back on being a smart ass or sarcastic.

A: I'm trying. It'd help if you did the same at times.

Q: Maybe I'm just missing something. I hope I am.

A: You and everyone here are passionate fans. We've waited, watched, and been told it's coming. Where the hell is it is a perfectly reasonable question to ask. But nobody said totally rebuilding a MLB roaster takes a snap of the fingers. While unfortunate, the outcome of this season wasn't "unforeseeable". Some parts were. B-Rob injury not fore-seeable. (and the whole "Andy should have found a replacement better than Lugo"...uh, there was a player that could replace B-Rob and was available/not needed by another team? Were was a "B-Rob" replacement coming from? I can think of 1 guy who MIGHT have been able to fill B-Rob's offensive ability (Johnny Damon), but none at 2B...I think Pedoria, Utley, Kinsler, and Figgins were all staying with their clubs).

food for thought anyway.

Gil, Mes

Gil, you have used the Business World comparison many times, that is comparing your industry with that of another. It's apples and oranges. Banking is pretty cut and dry about "success". Profit is success, and it relies on analysis of lesser things than does a Major League team. Your conclusion that because Andy has no hard and fast time-lines and thus leading to a lack of urgency is unsupportable. Andy has a contract. It has a time-line. If his boss doesn't believe Andy has fulfilled his contract, it won't be extended. That's a time-line for Peter to see progress. What is considered progress in your industry may not be those of the owner of a Major League team. Respectfully, I'm trying to say, Andy does have a time-line.

To think that Andy is intentionally trying to lose, or not to win, is pretty subjective too. The results may suggest that, but I'm 100% confident that people like Andy don't try and lose. It's obviously a bad idea for numerous reasons. But I think you know he's not trying to loose. It just might not "feel" that way.

And as for the Yankees and trying to win the World Series every year. Are you suggesting that Andy come out and say "we're trying to win the World Series in 2011"? That claim is so far removed from reality he'd be laughed at by you and me both.

Are you both 100% convinced Andy is trying to loose? He's trying to ruin this team? Since you can't prove that, and I can't disprove it either, it becomes conjecture. So, claiming it's the truth, when it's unprovable is a bit, well cynical. And while I totally get the cynicism, let's call the spade a spade realize it's nothing more than anguish.

Seriously, it's a blog, so everyone's entitled to rant and rave (I do my fair share too), but before we all jump off the deep-end let's try and separate some of the wheat from the chafe.

waspman,

I'd be remiss if I didn't mention thanks on the read. Well said sir.

paulie,

Baseball is a business. Success in any business is a result of demanding excellence. The same consultants that mentor bank executives work with airlines, hotels, manufacturing communications and sports. If Andy is as smart as you and Smitty think, then he has known that the teams that has put on the field since he has been here have had no chance to win. If he thought they could win, then he is dumber than a doorknob. I don''t think he is dumb, therefore he has been planning to lose. Unless of course, he is dumber than a doorknob. If the Orioles lose another 100 games next year, his 5th season, I guess we will have our answer.

Gil,

To run the cooperate banking analogy into the ground at this point, there's investment and return. The investment in youth is not only prudent and necessary but wise as well. The return on this investment as not meet expectations. Selling short is an option, as some have suggested, selling off for pennies on the dollar.

There is always "risk", even in banking. The tolerance for risk is a deciding factor when it comes to the O's.

As for Baseball related matters, look at Gorden Beckham, who finished 2nd in ROY just ahead of Riemold. Dismal year, and yet a Contending team, the White Sox, would not move him to get Adam Dunn. That's risky. I'm sure many fans feel like Beckham should have been moved for more reliable Adam Dunn. Obviously they felt the return on investment for Gordan would meet expectations....while in a Race. (side note: I wonder what Obama would say about not trading for Dunn at the dead-line. hummmm..)

i agree with paulie, almost any sports is a business anyway!