baltimoresun.com

« Orioles: Andy's MASN interview | Main | Orioles: Arrieta's encore »

June 15, 2010

Tillman's future

Check out Jeff Zrebiec's blog entry about Chris Tillman, who Jeff believes is about to be optioned back to Norfolk. I'm not surprised after last night's start called into question his velocity and command. He's a very young guy and the Orioles need to handle him carefully or risk him not developing into the solid major leaguer everybody has projected him to be.

Also on the Orioles Insider blog, Dean Jones picked up some comments by Bobby Valentine from an ESPN Radio interview in New York. Sounds a lot like Valentine isn't interested in the job. One more reason to predict that Eric Wedge will get the job.

Evening update: The Orioles have decided instead to keep Tillman in the bullpen this week, but he could end up back in Norfolk soon if he doesn't get regular work.

Posted by Peter Schmuck at 12:11 PM | | Comments (94)
Categories: Just baseball
        

Comments

Tilmans Future:

1. Traded to the Marlins
2. Released by the Marlins
3. Picked up by the Pirates

Oh wait, that's Hayden Penn. Is there a difference?

I have watched probably 6 out of his 8 starts this year and he has a fastball that has little or no movement...this is a problem at this level. But I think some time at AAA for a 22yr. old can't hurt. It would be a supreme knee-jerk reaction to give up on him at this point.
But here's something to think about: Did the baseball gurus for the Mariners see something in this kid that everybody else has missed? I mean if he was so freakin' good why did they let him go? I tend to ask this question about all the players we receive in trades, i.e. Scott, who has trouble with anything but a fastball, its not like the Astros are overloaded with talent.
I hate to think that our talent scouts continually overrate players.
Trying not to lose hope but its getting hard.

Doug -

Speaking of a supreme knee jerk reaction...

"Tilmans Future:

1. Traded to the Marlins
2. Released by the Marlins
3. Picked up by the Pirates

Oh wait, that's Hayden Penn. Is there a difference?"

Posted by: Mesotheliangelos | June 15, 2010 12:51 PM

Doug in Perry Hall,

The Astros knew exactly what they were doing. They got rid of a guy like Scott who hits for 15 straight games (total) and disappears into obscurity. Offloaded a bunch of dead-end minor leaguers, for a gold glove all star Shortstop. And probably made room for some of their prospects to succeed.

Yeah, Meso. The Astros know exactly what they're doing. That's why they have a terrible big league team, a terrible farm system and only five players on their 25 man roster who have yet to turn 30.

Oh, and the "Gold Glove shortstop" that they traded for has never won a Gold Glove. And he was outed in a steroid report the day after the trade. And a year later he aged two years overnight.

Yeah, man. The Astros know exactly what they're doing!

PS - This does not mean that I think the Orioles do know what they're doing.

Apparently the Rangers are looking for a back-up corner infielder (Ty Wiggington).

hello Chris Davis??

His future is just what everybodies future is when they put on a oriole uniform.1 They were over rated to begin with or 2 They get swallowed up in this losing cuture that has been allowed to grow. See that more then anything is what really bothers me about andy's rebuilding plan, he never put together a competive enough team for them to have any chance to succeed. Great Job andy for putting the final touches to burying this organization.

Not Brooks,

YTejada made the all star team with the Astros, instantly providing a boost for their lineup, and If I'm not mistaken, they made the playoffs with Tejada on the roster.

Tejada has 260+ career home runs and over 1000 RBIs. He ranks 4th of all time among shortstops for home runs. What have the players that Astros gave the O's have done (combined)?

Your argument has no leg to stand on.

Can't we do better than Eric Wedge?

The Astros haven't sniffed the playoffs since they were in the World Series in 2005. His major accomplishment to the Astros were leading the majors in GIDPs.

Tejada provided nothing for the Astros much like he's provided nothing for the Orioles in both tours.

When are we ever going to sign someone that is a sure-fire star and makes an immediate impact? After all these years of having high draft picks,where are the Longorias/Strasbergs/Greinkes/Mauers etc that other teams seem to find?
I realize you can't click every time but the O's haven't had any luck whatsoever in the draft and/or trade market in recent years. Our legacy in this areas is the Larry Bigbies/Hayden Penns/Matt Rileys/Garrett Olsens-need I go on?
And let's be serious about Bobby Valentine-please!!! That guy's ship has sailed years ago...ever since he wore that stupid moustache etc and he's pompous to boot.
Yeah, he'd lead us to the promised land! If he was so qualified, how come no other MLB team hired him? We should count our blessings that he apparently 'turned us down'; this is just the type of guy MacPhail would hire. I guess he's waiting for the KC or Pittsburgh job to become available.
Surely there are enough candidates out there that are a little more 'current' than Valentine.
I know the sentiment is to find a fiery manager so that he can inspire the current roster of listless players but you still need some level of talent. That's why I feel the O's are going about this backwards-fire MacPhail first and then let the new GM hire his own manager. MacPhail has not done his job. He should hang his head in shame everytime he looks at the sad excuse for an MLB team he sends out there to get pummelled on a nightly basis.

JSwo. I think you're a little off the mark with Tejada. In his first 'tour of duty' with the O's all he did was knock in 150 runs one year(which is still a team record), hit with consistent power, bat .300 and play steady defense. He earned his 12 mill per until he was traded to Houston, at which time his power 'mysteriously' disappeared-right around the time the steroids came front and centre(along with the age increase).
In hindsight, the timing and rationale of Tejada's trade to Houston make perfect sense.
What didn't really make sense was bringing him back 2 years later, when he began to regress and then on top of that,let's have him play a new position!!! This was another of MacPhail's questionable moves in recent years, which are well-documented here.

The timing for firing Trembley was too soon after being too late twice. And that's assuming he should have been hired in the first place.

His replacement needs to be confident and focused so the non-lost causes on the team can be confident and focused.

Meanwhile, this team needs to get a few horses in the stable who are competent and willing to be paid for losing while this thing gets corrected (associated assumptions applied). The Orioles cannot use the division they're in as an excuse. Neither can those who think the Orioles are at some sort of disadvantage.

Okay. There is a measure of being at a disadvantage when comparing BAL to NYY and BOS, but BAL does not have to be small market either. The stats contained here include TOR and TBR and BAL outside the AL East.

The four AL East teams are 89-58 (.605) if you delete the record of the four teams over BAL and account for the four teams playing each other.

BAL is 9-22 (.290) versus the teams outside the AL East.

I can understand Bobby Valentine not being interested in the managerial job but one has to wonder why he did the interview in the first place. It wasn't like the Birds went on a 30-game losing streak during the interview or had 82 wins in 2009.

Did he just want to show other teams he is still interested in managing a major league team? Or did he exit the interview convinced the Orioles are not equipped to be a major league team anytime soon?

Meso -

The Astros finished in 3rd in the central in 2008 and they had a losing record in 2009. Unless I'm mistaken, those results don't get you into the playoffs.

Until you can get your facts straight, your arguments don't have a leg to stand on.

Tillman STINKS just like Matt Wieters and Adam Jones STINKS.

what a PATHETIC team

SELL the team PETER ANGELOS

please RESIGN Andy MCFAIL


SAVE US CAL RIPKEN!

Cal Ripken? Please. That guy can't even run his baseball complex in Aberdeen. No, Ripken is not the answer.

No, the answer is patience. Nothing any of you say makes any difference. You all keep beating the same theme, the Orioles suck, OK, we know it. Anyone over the age of three days knows it. So what's the point of keeping saying it? Say something meaningful! Come up with what you would do.

These are very young players, highly thought of by just about everyone in baseball, and baseball being baseball, they are going through an incredibly horrendous stretch right now. It happens. Were not yet to the halfway point of the season, all any of us can do is buckle down and ride it through.

Has the GM made mistakes? Sure, he has. We all do. But pro sports in general and baseball in particular is not an exact science. Things that appear to be pretty safe bets often turn around and bite you on the ass. But kvetching and moaning, screaming and hollering will not do any good. We all know the frustration level around here and I am quite sure the team is just as frustrated. But fact remains that this can turn around in a relatively short amount of time. Anyone who doesn't realize that just doesn't know baseball.

The biggest need right now is to get the offense together and who is to say they won't get that impact or two in the off season? The pitching, for the very most part, has held up its end, though it is starting to show cracks.

The irony of it all is that if we could have put the offense of the past two years, when it was very good(under Terry Crowley, BTW) with this year's pitching, then we're not 17-47. The Orioles wouldn't be 47-17, but they would be a hell of a lot closer to 500.

So, if the four injured Orioles come back and can contribute, that makes the team better and maybe things can get back to semi abnormal. Roberts looks to be done for the year, and that's fine, get him healthy for next season. In the meantime, the young pitchers have to keep gaining experience, the young hitters have to keep working hard, they have too much talent to be playing like this, and eventually, things will turn around. When? Who knows? But to keep beating the dead horse is futile.

Keep the faith, my brothers and sisters, what else can we do?

Peter,
I took more away from Valentine's comments than the fact that he's not interested. His comments directly asserted that MacPhail and Angelos did not describe any kind of credible plan to turn the team around- he said they have lots of problems, and that they're brainstorming how to solve them, but then said that it isn't clear how they are going to turn the team around.

Given how insistent MacPhail is about "the plan" (which as of this year I am now going to start putting in quotation marks), how can Orioles fans not take Valentine's remarks to mean anything other than there is nothing to this plan. Valentine could have very easily said "well they have a long way to go to turn that ship around but the have a good blueprint in place to do it," but his specific comments reflect very poorly on MacPhail's plan (and/or in his ability to pitch it to a prospective manager, either of which is a problem).

When a respected baseball guy like Valentine gets the full 1:1 pitch on the Orioles directly from MacPhail and Angelos, and comes away thinking they don't know how to turn the team around, is this a problem??

Mesotheangelos is a dummy, yet he's arrogant

Quite the combination !

Ken still sucks Andy's ass

How dumb is this guy ?

Tillman's future???
How about a 70 hour long Greyhound ride from SanFrancisco to Norfolk to collect his thoughts & decide whether or not he's really "The Jewell of the Trade" or "The Tool of the Trade".

Miguel Tejada hit a total of 27 HR's for the Astros in 2 years.

He had a collective .326 OBP and .435 SLG in 2 years which comes out to a .761 OPS, all three well below his career average.

He hit into 61 double plays which is rediculous.

He is not and never was a gold glove SS and was never above average in the field.

Tejada left the Orioles in the start of his decline. Actually, he's been declining since 2007. He wasn't worth the $14 million he recieved in the final 2 years of his contract and the Orioles were probably better off without him b/c he didn't want to be here anyway.

Lastly, since we're comparing Tejada to Luke Scott, Scott was more productive during his past 2 years with the Orioles then Tejada was with the Astros.

Want to prove me wrong? Go for it:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/scottlu01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/tejadmi01-field.shtml

OH, the Humanity!!!!

Tillman=Daniel Cabrera!!! Seems to be a very comparable situation. Whether he can put it together in a few more years is another question.

Hope for Tillman is fading though.

Hey Ken,

Please don;t come on here with that type of nonsense anymore. You think Cal couldn;t run this franchise better than Angelos/MacPphail? Surely you jest. One would be hard put to have produced a worse result than this years team, and I don;t think it's really a surprise to the folks in the know at the warehouse.
It is becoming clearer and clearer to me every week. Macphail is not a failure - he's probably doing very well actually. The sole purpose of the Orioles organization is to enrich ownership, and it's being done on a year by year basis (as opposed to a long term objective of increasing the core value of the franchise).
It's tough to come to this realization about I team I have followed for 25 years, since I was 7 or so. It's a shame that my kids won't be able to grow up with a favorite baseball team.

ken -

The point of an offense is to score runs, right? The O's scored 741 runs in 2009. Good for 16th out of the 30 MLB teams. When half of the game is better than you, you're not "very good".

I guess I'll give you 2008 as a "very good" offensive year, as they were only four two-run homers from the top ten. Match the 2008 offense with this year's starting pitching, and maybe they've got 12-13 more wins.

And since you brought up the Crow, I figured I'd go back in time to see when he should have been fired...

2000: 19th of 30
2001: 26th of 30 (FIRED!)
2002: 26th of 30 (FIRED!)
2003: 18th of 30
2004: 8th of 30
2005: 15th of 30
2006: 17th of 30
2007: 16th of 30 (FIRED!)
2008: 11th of 30
2009: 16th of 30
2010: 29th of 30 (FIRED!)

In eight of those 11 seasons, the O's were in the bottom half. In '01 and '02, they were in the bottom five! '04 and '08 are the only seasons you could possibly consider offensively successful. How in the world has Crowley lasted so long?!?!?

Speaking of someone being fired...

Trembley was fired a week and a half ago and I just read this:

"Two other rumored candidates for the position -- Phil Garner and Buck Showalter -- both told MLB.com they have not been contacted by the Orioles for the managerial vacancy, but both said they wouldn't be opposed to listening to what MacPhail had to say."

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100615&content_id=11188658&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb&partnerId=rss_mlb

This is going to take a very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very looooooooooooooooong time.

not brooks -

In response to your post to Ken, do realize just how terrible the O's offense even with Crowley? Think about it, 2004 was 8th of 30. That was the last time the O's had an offense tht was considered a strenth.

2008, the O's were 11th of 30 with Huff and Mora having very good seasons and Markakis had his best year so far that year.

I don't know. He's had some pretty horrible players to work with and it seems like every year there's a "project" or two to catch lighting in a bottle. I'm not saying Crowley is anything great and his work with Jones, Wieters, Riemold, Markakis (sort of), so and so on should've gotten him fired by now.

But really, if AM had done what he said he was going to do this offseason, I think it's safe to say the younger players would've been better off and the offensive numbers would look alot better. It takes a special kind of coach to make a shit salad edible.

Why does Ken lie so much ?

"I said [previously it] could be days, could be weeks, could be months, could be years. I try to give myself the full spectrum. There are so many variables. I don't know how the process is going to unfold."

Dopey MacCheap

Dave, the point is, Crowley's philosophy seems to be (and I say seems to be because I have no idea what he is telling people, only what is happening) against the way the game is played now. The hitters don't make pitchers pitch. They get themselves out by chasing fringe pitches early in the count, thus not making the pitcher work. This is why you consistently see guys with high ERAs (and guys with low ERAs) pitching like they're Cy Young candidates against the O's on a nightly basis. The flow and theories of the modern game dictate that you should be doing what the O's aren't doing. Going against the grain can work if you have all the best players in the game, but otherwise...

To put it another way, the team's approach at the plate is very anti-Zen.

CIH said

This is why you consistently see guys with high ERAs (and guys with low ERAs) pitching like they're Cy Young candidates against the O's on a nightly basis.

Not only the crow's obsolete philosophy, but a terrible line-up mixed with absolutely horrendous advanced scouting


(myth that andy "improved scouting" notwithstanding)

ken,

Bless you sir..... One really must admire your loyalty.

Our prospects are not as highly thought of as you say ken. No one's talking about Bell or Snyder. No one's talking about Tillman anymore. People are talkig about Britton, but he's still just a name like Tillman used to be.

People are seeing the holes in Jone's game and the jury is still out on promising players like Wieters and Matusz.

Some people said the team was risking too much by counting on guys like Reimold and Bergy going into 2010. Turns out they're just not very good.

No on'e really talking about Arrieta. Sure, he had a nice first outing and was doing well in AAA, but no one's really saying he's the real deal. We'll see I suppose.

Every team has the names ken.... In fact, many have better names. Look around the league ken. Look at the prospects. Sure, the O's have a few..... but it's not like people are saying 'the o's stink, but look at all the great young talent they have'. They're not saying that ken. Not anymore.

Read post prior to the 2009 season ken. Tillman was the guy. Everyone was so excited. Yes, he's only 22. But guess what? He's very similar to allot of 22 yr olds in mlb. Who's excited now?

As for 'what else can we do'?

We can get a head of baseball operations who hasn't completely lost it. Someone who hasn't lost more games than anyone over the past two decades. Someone who MISSES every time with free agents. Misses so badly that 2010 is a completely lost year within the so called Plan.... as if it never existed.

It's June 15, and the team is 30 games under 500. The national media you love to talk about is now destroying this team. Why would they do that ken? Especially if they know of the Plan.

Why would Mike G on Mike and Mike have such pity on the city and franchise this morning if he was privy to the grand Plan?

Patience becomes a LOSERS word.

AM is making millions of dollars as he continues to fail like no one we've seen in the modern era.

What kind of job do you have ken? Would you be allowed to have a year that's considered lost within your grand plan? Would you be allowed to make excuses in your 4th year on the job if your performance was at an all time low?

If so, good for you. Perhaps that's why you live far from what many of us call the real world.

Can't wait for that drink.


Over the last 18 games, Oriole starting pitchers are 1-14, 6.66era with just five quality starts.

Wayne can't add either..


If someone starts a job in June 2007 and their anniversary comes in June 2010, how many years is that...
SPOLIER ALERT
Its between 3 and 5

Thats OK it just shows the depth of hatred you have for a man you never met that it even effects your 3rd grade math skills..

Tejada

O hr 1 rbi

last 67 ABs

You screwed that one up, smitty.

Posted by: Andrew | June 15, 2010 3:53 PM

Good post Andrew, that was exactly the message I got from Bobby Valentines interview remarks.
My take is that Valentines ego with the opportunity of going up against Boston and New York on the big stage, wants the O's job so bad that he can taste it. But not so bad as to take on a job where the GM and Owner could not sell him the snake oil they were offering. They are obviously looking for a younger manager that has age on his side to sit through another re-building stage and probably one far less demanding for success than Valentine. I agree with Peters choice because Wedge fits that bill.

Transcipt from the Bobby V interview


BV-- SO, uh, Andy--R u ever going to actually u know-- buy some bats ?

AM- Just this past offseason we added our "imapct bat" by getting Garret Atkins--He was good during George W Bush's 1st term in office. We grabbed julio Lugo too...He was TB's lone representative back when they were stinking up the place!!

BV-- Good one andy. NO, SERIOUSLY

AM- Im dead serious. We are gonna field the best team that 70 million can buy and no matter how high we draft in the slot system, we are committed to spend 15th, no matter what...Look at my record, We had the 5th spot last yr, but I spent 15 th anyway-- No one was holding a gun to my head or anything. If we dont pocket 100 million a yr in profits, I wouildnt be a very good gm now would I ?

BV- So u wont buy free agents and you wont spend in the draft. Why werent you in on Chapman or Sano then ?

AM- Didnt I just answer that ?

BV- that gig at espn is good until a real mgr job opens up

smitty

I tried to make sense of your post and I felt myself 'get more stoopiter'.

What month are we in....

Guys, it's ok.....

smitty is just smitty (well, he's more than just smitty, but you know what i mean).

Anyway, it's cool.

You guys really need to see this. The ghost of Ross Grimsley is in that of O's prospect Ryan Berry.....LOOK:

ZPNV-WZPX-HHFR

You guys really need to see this. The ghost of Ross Grimsley is in that of O's prospect Ryan Berry.....LOOK:

http://oriolesprospects.com/2010/06/13/minor-league-scores-61310/

CIH

Difference in opinion. the reason why the O's make crappy pitchers look good is because they have a crappy offense.

Unless you believe the aquisitions of Atkins, Tejada, Lugo, and Patterson was going to boost our lineup, well, I guess you could blame Crowley. That's the point I was trying to make to not brooks. I see and agree with what you're saying about Crowley (ie Jones chasing pitches etc,) but you have to also realize Jones and co. have have spent the better part of their season so far in the wrong part of the line up. Seriously, would you bat Jones leadoff, Tejada clean up, Riemold #2 and Wieters/Scott # 5 and/or 6?

The problem is the irresponsibility of the H.N.I.C. Andy Mac. He failed to provide promising young players with the protection they should've had. Injuries happen, but then there's the lack of depth. Who do you blame that on? When you have players like Atkins, Lugo, Izturis, Patterson, and the rotating band of 1st basemen we've gone thru, something is jacked up. It goes way beyond Crowley, he ain't even the root of the problem. And I don't want to defend him. Like I said, I agree with you, Chris, on some points, but to blame Crowley for the full picture is wrong. I could bet you any amount if Crowley was fired tomorrow, it wouldn't make a difference. Just like firing Trembley hasn't made a difference. When the offseason comes up, that will be a different story though....

In short, the HNIC (or whatever abbreviation you want to call is position) failed to complement the talent he already had in place. And now too much is expected out of Wieters and co because of the unfair expectations that were already put on their shoulders - I don't completely blame them. The veterans AM signed came here because they had nowhere else to go - which explains alot.

Anyway, do me a favor. Change your name to "Chris FROM Hawaii" so I can abbrieviate it CFH - my favorite Pantera album Cowboys from Hell :D

June 20, 2007 - June 20, 2008 = 1 Yr.
June 20, 2008 - June 20, 2009 = 2 Yr.
June 20, 2009 - June 20, 2010 = 3 Yr.

So MacPhail will be in his fourth year starting Sunday.... Unless my math is wrong...

I'm growing increasingly skeptical of the plan, but not fully ready to give up on it yet. I would like to see some legitimate power threats in our line-up though...

That was a real test Ok between 2 and 4.
Yes he will be beginning his 4th year Sunday. And all those who thought he could magically turn this into a winner after 2 and a half years with his roster are just not realistic. A reasonable time frame for the job he was brought here to do would be 5 years. I'm still on board and looking forward with optimism.

"The timing for firing Trembley was too soon after being too late twice. And that's assuming he should have been hired in the first place."

Wow is that doublethink or what? Have we been reading 1984? The Ministry of Truth is watching you. I wish Winston Smith could revise the past 13 years. The O's were the dynasty of the 90's winning 5 World Series in 7 years all under the tutelage of supreme being Dave Trembley

dave,

I see what you're saying as well (I don't think Andy can get away unscathed here), but I do think the root of the problem is with Crowley. You can look at the list nb posted and just see that the team has been average at best on offense while he's been here and several years, we've been downright horrible.

You can say it's the players, but take Wieters. When he came up, he was a pretty patient guy at the plate. To me, patience goes along with confidence. You have to be confident that you can hit with two strikes, or at least foul off some pitches until you see something you want. Somewhere along the way, that patience retarded and for a good while, we saw Wieters not only struggling for hits at the plate, but swinging at every first pitch that came his way. He looked extremely uncomfortable at the plate. So who is responsible for coaching a guy through something like that? That should have been something that was stopped immediately... but it wasn't.

Last night, in four at bats, Jones saw, what... 11 pitches? That's 2.75 pitches per AB. I believe league average is something like 3.75. How is a young guy supposed to get better at pitch recognition when he's seeing a full pitch less than the league average per AB?

These are things that should be controllable by Crowley. And these don't seem like things he is in control of.

Sure, Atkins was a horrible, horrible signing (and Lugo and Patterson were desperation moves). But the fact that a couple guys are horrible shouldn't mean that suddenly everyone is regressing.

I agree that firing Crowley now wouldn't make any difference in the standings, but for the future of the players, I think getting them on the right track as soon as possible would be beneficial.

Oh, and I'm FROM Maryland originally (why the hell else would I subject myself to being an O's fan?), so I'm still just IN Hawaii. Sorry.

RIP - Dimebag Darrell.

re Crowley

We need a revised version of Crowley/Oriole run performance over his term.

How did the O's finish in the AL in all of those years. Comparing them to NL teams is apples to oranges, not only does the DH make a big difference but the style of play is different as well.
Also, you have to factor in the ballpark, I would think the Yards would be conducive to a few more runs (and that's not counting the home pitching)

My guess is that if you look at him in these terms the hitorical record goes from poor to Very bad.
Bottom line - just another bad part of a rotten team.
But it produces some pretty big EBITDA for the owners, I'm sure.
Folks, we're in a class with the Royals and Pirates. Owners that only care about making a few mil per year, for as long as they can...ours has an added boost with MASN and 2 franchises to produce revenue, along with the minimum guaranteed sale price if he ever sells the team. You could argue that it was well played from a business perspective; of course it's ruined a source of joy for the region, but how can that compare with the Angelos family balance sheet?

Smitty.

You mean 'his' roster of Atkins, Izturis, Tejada, Paterson, Lugo, Jones, Millwood, Gonzales, Hendrickson, Koji, Tillman, Bell, Moore, Eaton, Hill and so many, many, many more. Is that the 'his roster' you're speaking of?

I used to say "D'oh" every time I saw "Infield single to short' in a scoring summary. Yes, the GOLD GLOVE SS was our SS then!

NB,

As Per Hitting Coach histories, try looking up the hitting coaches for the Yankees over the last 12 years. I'd bet each of them, based on the same Crowley standards, is a very good hitting coach. I'm just saying, I don't think the data used is totally without question. What metric one should use, I don't know... (btw, I had trouble trying to find the data myself, so if you got a recommendation...)

ken,

I feel you man. Cooler heads will prevail.

wayne,

...are you suggesting that the Professional Talent evaluators and multiple sources of talent evaluation in mass media were all wrong and lying to not just O's fans, but the nation in general?

Or, perhaps, that not all talent will develop for reasons Beyond conspiracy or law-of-averages?

Is your expectation for nothing less than Instantaneous Success absent any regression from prospects on the way to the Hall Of Fame?


dave in glen burnie,

and your asking for abbreviations...
I bet you can make your points without racist/profanity.

CIH,

There are many different approaches to hitting, and while I personally agree with working counts modi-operendi, there are others. The Jays swing at first pitches at a ridiculous rate. The A's, for all the Billy Bean OPS influence, have some of the worst K/BB rates and hitters swinging at everything. Different ways to skin a cat i suppose.

Mike,

We wish we were in a class of the Royals and Pirates. Those teams have better records, with better prospects than the Orioles. That's what people don't see. The Orioles aren't just bad, they're going to get even worse. Those other teams you mention Mike. They're improving. They have hope. The Orioles have none.

Nobody has a better take on Crowley than Earl!

Its really about 2012!!!

The MacFailers said that all along

Nevermind that when he was hired, they said it was about 2010, lol

U cant make this up

Dude - the only Royals and Pirates fans that have hope..are the Kens and Smittys of Pittsburgh and the midwest. If you think those teams are in any way on the rise, think again.

Pretty much the whole thing is his even this terrible mess right now and it will be his when he is done rebuilding and we go to the playoffs and try to get his 3rd World Series ring....Not many Gm's have 2 of them do they?...
Especially not many people who all they can do is post criticisms on a blog like a juvenile and use all these different names. Funny how all the really good GM's post on Pete's blog. Someone should tell all the Owners to start their search for the next GM right here.
nb Gil and Wayne get ready for those phones top start ringing...
You can start the interview with "Well I certainly can't do any worse than that guy MACFAIL has done. That should get you the gig asap.

Yeah all the haters can't take away the 2 rings can they?...nope

they can try to minimize and discredit (long time ago. different financial blah blah blah) but can't take away the personal success of 2 World Championships..
Yes we are in good hands folks just be patient!

Go Andy Go O's Playoffs 2011!!!

One of pete's bloggers could go on a wk long meth binge that would make shammy proud and STILL DO BETTER THAN DOPEY MAC CHEAP

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Quick, someone get a hobo from the bus station and hire him as GM

He couldnt be worse than macfail

I've got my resume in already

but smitty,

are you trying to say the standards of, say, i dunno, the Tigers...might be....unreasonable?

the one time it happens, and Andy can't replicate it?

or the fact that Andy never gave an exact data, but a broad range, for success... because he's a grown-professional-man not an idiot.


Paulie,

Stop being such a dope

The Tigers arent the only quick turnaround in baseball, they are just a recent example

33-3 and we are back to .500...

Marlins went from an EXPANSION TEAM to the WS in 4 years


They blew it up again and THEY WERE PLAYING MEANINGFUL GAMES 3 YEARS LATER and back WINNING ANOTHER WORLD SERIES 5 yrs after that

It doesnt take forever unless you dont know what youre doing

an "exact date" in advance for when the rebuild is done for a proffessional baseball organization?...

That doesn't sound ridiculous to you?....

I mean cause every organization can be compared like they are the same...so you can say "see the Tigers did it why can't dopey Macfail"..oh I see now every thing is exactly the same...Thanks now I hate him too

Smitty,

How come you dont use Travis Moon here ?

We all admire those who have achieved rings in the past. No one has taken anything away from Andy in that way. It's just that it was a very, very long time ago. Too bad Earl couldn't keep coaching, or that Palmer and Cal couldn't keep playing. Andy is definitely tarnishing his legacy though, and that's sad for him. People will talk about the rings, but they'll also talk about how since those rings, he has displayed one of the longest runs of futility in the modern era of baseball.

What sounds ridiculous is thinking he can do it again becuase he did it 20 yrs ago but IGNORING ALL THE MACFAILURES SINCE HE LAST MADE IT TO THE WORLD SERIES

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

anon is this like a trick question...am i stupid and irrelavent for not knowing who Travis Moon is?
I don't even know any Travis's come to think of it
I know Keith Moon....I know Moon River..
but thanks for getting my mind of off of this awful team for a few seconds

puppet,

back to your corner 'till you figure out how not to be obnoxious.

Paulie,

Make sure you report to your PO

I told u about playing with those puppets

I thought you had to surrender all of your puppets because of that incident with the boy scout troupe

Oh OK
cause everyone knows that mental skills rapidly deteriorate at age 35-40 just like physical skills...
Man you are some kind of genius. ALL the GM's should be like 28 years old in their prime..
Thanks I hate him even more now cause he's old and we all know from history that no one over the age of say 35 ever accomplishes diddly....I mean they can't usually dunk a basketball or anything after that age

Stupid,

HIS RECORD SPEAKS FOR ITSELF

HE'S THE LOSINGEST EXEC IN MLB SINCE THAT WS IN 91,

Now he's made a bad team and made it even worse

WE are about to set a record for LOSSES

R u blind or just plain stupid ?

Those rings really bother you though don't they?...is it because you've never been succesfull? thats alright keep trying you may not be the best in the world at what you do like Andy was for 2 years but you can achieve something...reach for the stars!

...thanks for proving the point. that's why you're my puppet...you yet again did what I wanted you to do. i guess you're a little light on the gray matter huh...

Smitty,
I'll exempt you from this comment if you are, as I suspect, a close friend or family member of macphails. I also only hold him partly responsible for this abomination, because I think his True job is Profit while pulling the wool over the fans eyes, and he succeeded at that job for 3 years. I think the gig is up thogh.

His fingerprints are all over this team. His direct quote "This is the most talented team since I have been here" need I remind you? Nobody said they had to make the WS in 3 years. But they are worse, not better. And my, how they are worse...

They are 17-47. That is .265. Multiply by 162 and they get 43 wins. Do you have any concept of how awful that is. Do you realize that a few rain outs, at that win rate, could give us a shot at the lowest win total in the modern era?
Glad you see all the reason for optimism - but don't mock those that feel otherwise.

Nice to see a Arrieta showing good control with movement on his pitches, two things I've yet to see from Tillman.

Mike in Columbia,

would you rather have the team from 3 years ago, or this one?

I'm taking this team.

And as for profit/duping, I'm sure you realize that part of the job requirement of being a professional General Manager is to speak well about one's self and organization and boss. That's not restricted to Andy.

smitty, u can never win. you thrive on losing. you agree with losing. You in fact, are a loser. Yes, Andy won something 20 yrs ago. That's been covered and we all congratulate him. He has since been a loser however. A loser for 20 years. The worst loser in fact. But keep bringing it up because as everyone can see, it's all you've got.

You have nothing to offer the blog, accept your multiple hilarious names. If they win a ball game, you'll be celebrating as if it means something.

You prove how being positive can indeed make someone a loser.

Pete likes you because you help build his post numbers. Everyone else here knows he laughs at you though.

good comment Jon. agreed.

I'm gonna go out on the limb and say Arrieta will be the Ace of the group. I like Matusz, but he was mostly regarded as a #2, and Tillman looks a little....something.

As I said, he's done his job well...but I think we're reaching the point where The Orioles play, and specifically the play of their "talented prospects" will make it impossible for most fans to take them seriosly...viewership will drop...ad revenue will drop...attendance is already awful...thus revenue decreases....thus we can't afford free agents....pretty easy to see how this book ends.
The Hobgood pick was damning - that was a major red flag. If the O's were really about building the best farm system possible they would not have drafted him. Everyone knows he was pciked becasue he was cheap.

puppet,

IF.
just IF.
even if it's only a 1,000,000,000 to 1 odds that you MIGHT be mistaken.

that smitty and I are different people.

just "if".
I know you'll never acknowledge it, but "if"...

you can't imagine how you look.
there are no words.

but that's only "if" you're wrong.

Ohhhh, now arrieta is now going to be the ace of the staff. Wow, this gets better each day. These guys just change their minds from game to game.

Tillman was great - Now he sucks
Matusz will be the ace by the 2nd half - now he's a #2 behind Arietta.

It's been said before, but is worth repeating. Baltimore baseball fans may be the dumbest in the country.

paulie you know you are me so knock it off ...
and I can prove it.... with one simple question

Is Cap'n Crunch one of the top 3 foods ever made by man and machine?

BONUS POINT (to really scare him)
If you got married on June 20th of 2007 what anniversary are you getting ready to celebrate?

28 would be the correct answer

If you answered anything else you are probably jim66 (great poster btw)

If you answer

Anyone who thought Tillman was great said that before seeing him pitch. It's Paulie's opinion that Arrieta will be the ace and that's fine. I still think Matusz is the best of the three.

Best blog comments ever! Keep 'em coming!! There are pretzel chunks all over my screen from laughing.

It's not a little ironic that "his last 19 years" are totally relevant but please don't go back to his 20-23rd years..oh noooo!!!

So he won the World Series tied one on and never recovered?

OK like I said I am now on your side I hate him too maybe even more than you do because I once loved him and now he's let me down so my hatred is greater than yours by far...

In fact I may call the warehouse tomorrow and "demand a change in the GM position now"


PS I hate Paulie now too

When Tillman was in high school, he was 185 lbs and threw a 90 fastball that topped at 94. Scouts said then that he needed to grow from a boy to a man, and add some more pounds and muscle. O's website lists him at 200 right now.

Scouts also said that his lackluster performance at the end of his senior year was due to a lack of interest.

This is why I keep saying the problem is not the talent, it is that the O's are not developing these guys properly. Why hasn't Tillman hit the weight room and beefed up to 225 like Arrieta? And without any true mentor or leader to help guide him, it's no surprise that on a lousy team, Tillman "loses interest".

The organization is only riding the talent of their players. Look at Wieters - great talent, but his numbers this year suggest he's not getting any solid instruction. This was Dave's task at the major league level, which is why he should have been fired during the offseason. Our players were not and still are not being developed. This is why we seek a new batting coach. And you listen to the players, and they say it's on them. They're young, they think they're invincible still. They desperately need proven leaders at the mlb level!

I am now convinced without any doubt (admittedly, I was about 80% convinced until now..) that Andy has no clue what he's doing. On top of his comments about Atkins, could he be any more out of touch with baseball operations?

I keep thinking of his news conference with the Cubs:

"The clock on the MacPhail o-meter has run down to zero," said MacPhail, who told reporters he broached the subject of resigning during a team review with Tribune Co. executives in midseason. "It's not just that we had a terrible season. I've been here 12 seasons and only two postseason [appearances] and to me that's not what I came here to do. Obviously, I've not been as effective as I wanted to be."

Peter - how much time is left on the MacPhail-O-Meter????

Mike in Col.
his "most talented team"
included
Roberts
Pie
Gonzales
Johnson
he didn't say "the most talented AAA team"
injuries are part of the game but we had no room for error to be good.

smitty,

no on Captain Crunch, but yes on Cinnamon Toast Crunch.

your math question is complicated. but since in a bad marriage, like a bad baseball team, time expands...it could be anywhere between 2 minutes and a century.

OK, I'll say up front that I have been an O's fan since I was 6, and that's 1954. I am probably the biggest O's fan west of, oh, Frederick. From my Colorado home, I have driven probably over 18,000 miles to Minnesota, Kansas City, Oakland, Anaheim, Boston, New York, Cleveland, Detroit, and Baltimore to see them play. I am as discouraged as anybody. But, my Dad used to say that "You're not as good as you look when you're winning, and you're not as bad as you look when you're losing." Could that be the case here? Can the Orioles really be as bad as their 18-47 record? No. They can't. How many losses this year would be wins if there had been ONE KEY HIT? or ONE KEY OUT? I know that the good teams get those hits and get those outs, but, really, there are likely 12 games that could have easily gone the other way. So, if you add 12 wins, subtract 12 losses, you get 30-35, which ain't gonna win no pennant, as they say, but at least you're not ready to put a bullet in your head. Patience is NOT for losers. Without patience, Coach K would have been fired after his second year at Duke, Sandy Koufax would have been selling shoes on the street in Brooklyn, Brooks Robinson would have been cut from his AA team and never made the majors, Michael Jordan would never had made his high school varsity.

Baseball is hard, almost impossible to master. For the first time in years and years, the O's have many young kids who appear to have some talent. If the coaching staff needs to change, so be it. But these players cannot be given up on. You bloggers who are ready to toos tillman on the scrap pile, what were you world class in at 22 years old, eh?

paulie

How am I racist? You responded to me just insult me, which makes you presumptuous. That's no better than a racist.

A 22 year old makes 16 major league starts and everone is ready to label hima complete failure... amazing

David Price had an ERA around five for half a season last year.. if he had been an Oriole these folks would have declered him "the next Hayden Penn" and demanded he be relased

I'm not wrong in my Tejada comments. He's a player that plays well and is happy and excited when he is winning (see 2005) but when he's not winning, you get mediocre at best.

Over the years he showed lack of hustle whether it's running out ground balls/pop ups or simple defense in the field. It wasn't constant, but it was enough. He has now been a part of 2 of the worst Orioles seasons I've seen (2005 and this one.) He could have been great, but he made the mistake of signing with us last decade.

That being said, I'll take 200 Tejadas over one Julio Lugo.

1988 was the other of my "worst" years I remember. 2005 was just heartbreaking and this year is embarrassing.

Post a comment

Please enter the letter "f" in the field below:
About Peter Schmuck
Peter Schmuck wants you to know that, contrary to popular belief, he is more than just a bon vivant, raconteur and collector of blousy flowered shirts. He is a semi-respected journalist who has covered virtually every sport -- except luge, of course – and tackled issues that transcend the mere games people play. If that isn’t enough to qualify him to provide witty, wide-ranging commentary on the sports world ... and the rest of the world, for that matter ... he is an avid reader of history, biography and the classics, as well as a charming blowhard who pops off on both sports and politics on WBAL Radio. That means you can expect a little of everything in The Schmuck Stops Here, but the major focus will be keeping you up to the minute on Baltimore’s major sports teams and themes, whether it’s throwing up the Orioles lineup the minute it’s announced or updating you on the latest sprained ankle in Owings Mills. Oh, and by the way, that’s Mr. Schmuck to you.

Schmuck column archive

Upload a photo of yourself or a friend wearing the new Peter Schmuck T-shirt, which is on sale at gotschmuck.com
-- ADVERTISEMENT --

Most Recent Comments
Photo galleries

Search our new database for every home run hit hit by the O's and the opposition — home and away — since 1992.

Buy Sports Tickets from the Baltimore Sun Store

Sign up for FREE Orioles alerts
Get free Sun alerts sent to your mobile phone.*
Get free Baltimore Sun mobile alerts
Sign up for Orioles text alerts

Returning user? Update preferences.
Sign up for more Sun text alerts
*Standard message and data rates apply. Click here for Frequently Asked Questions.
Blog updates
Recent updates to baltimoresun.com sports blogs
 Subscribe to this feed
Stay connected