fire macfail

Regardless of whom the Orioles hire for Manager. What the O's really need is Knute Rockne but unfortunately he is unavailable.
Also, it doesn't look like they are going to can MacPhail. If he's still bringing in Ex-Cubs, he still must feel he has job security. I think his next trick will be trying to sign Mark Prior to shore up the starting rotation.

I'm starting to question why MacPhail fired Trembley so soon now that he's decided drag out this so-called managerial search.

With all due respect to Chipotle and Qdoba, the world's best burritos can be found at Roberto's Taco Shopp in San Diego, Calif.

I hope McPhail will find a more modern manager, one who includes up-to-date research and analysis. And that's obviously not Samuel, who manages the same (failed) way Trembley did. On the other hand, it doesn't look like the Orioles have done any extensive analysis since Earl Weaver and his notebooks (which inspired Bill James). The only absolute in baseball, Weaver used to say, was that you have only 27 outs; why give one away? The reaction by the Marlins pitchers is revealing -- we'll take an out if you give it to us. Why give up Wieters when the hitters that follow are weaker? I really doubt that the lack of sacrifice bunts is what has undone the Orioles this year.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/notebook/_/page/bbtn100624/baseball-tonight-clubhouse

Some Tidbits:

When the Baltimore Orioles lost Tuesday night, their record fell to 19-51, by far the worst in the major leagues, and equaling the worst first 70 games in club history, tying the 1988 Orioles. I covered that team every day. It lost the first 21 games that season; it was historically bad. And yet this team, in some respects, is even worse off than the 1988 team (werent the apologists always citing the natl media as "proof" that the plan was on the right track ? Now that the natl media finally figured out what smart ppl on this blog already knew, will they change their tune ?)

. The detonation will have to begin in the minor leagues, which one source said "has very few position players as prospects.'' Most of the good young players in the system are in the major leagues, though some, such as pitcher Chris Tillman, have been sent back to the minor leagues because they aren't ready. (Oops Maybe Dopey MacCheap didnt really "rebuild" the minor leagues, no matter what the apologists say)

That is the most troublesome part of the 2010 Orioles. This was the year that they were supposed to turn the corner and perhaps get close to .500. (some of the macfan club even had the team winning 85 gms--sure hope there is room left on that bandwagon)

But there is hope. The Orioles make a lot of money, mostly off their cable TV package with MASN. Lagging attendance is a problem, but there is money in place for the Orioles to improve in a hurry (Everyone on the planet knows what a killing Angelos makes of MASN--only the clueless macfailers are in the dark)

So the managerial search continues. Looks like indecisive Andy is not sure about very much these days. The guy can't even get a firing right!

Right now the best thing Andy can do is make Samuel the manager for the rest of the year. Is Showalter or whomever really going to make a difference? And imagine the "transition" period when they are hired.

I think the Orioles should move the fences back at least ten feet all the way around and fifteen feet in the power alleys. Teams with real hitters in the lineup are at an advantage when they come in here. Since Macphail shows no propensity to spend money on marquee hitters and our minor league system is pretty much devoid of any promotable power, it doesn't make sense to make the young starters pitch half their games in this bandbox. The first home run Matusz gave up went 368 feet. I can still hit the ball that far with a wooden bat when I take infield/outfield for my American Legion team and I am 64.

Go get two corner infielders and a second baseman with range who can really pick'em, and pack the lineup with speed. The current team has no identity with either power hitting, speed, or defense. Statistics lie when it comes to defense because range is not a factor.

I f Macphail wants to be cheap, he should at least be smart.

You just love it pete when the few remaining backers that kiss your a$$ everyday take pot shots at me. See you use that to pick me a part.If you notice pete you are losing more and more of them each day. And what i posted last night about peter wanting rick as the interim manager is absolutely the truth. See you got a great game going on here pete you fire up the troops by tearing me up and then they join forces. Your troops are getting fewer by the day pete. Keep up the great job. You would be doing me a huge favor to delete me off of here. We will never agree on anything and in the end what i have been saying all along will come true on about 90% of things even if you view them as being negative. Did you take a good look at the sun's sports page today pete, you had to go to page 5 to read anything about the orioles. Pretty soon you will find them in the clasified section under used cars.

Gil,

I agree with you: They have to make the field of play bigger, and make it pitcher friendly. Especially with the young pitching we have. Look at what Minnesota did with their new stadium.

Our biggest problem is not the field, but Andy MacFail. He needs to be fired. This losing we're seeing has nothing to do with the process of rebuilding. This is a systematic disregard for baseball fundamentals with regards to scouting, minor league system, managing player personnel, player acquisition, trades, you name it. This is a series of blunders that you cannot attribute to rebuilding. This is demolition. Nothing is being rebuilt here. The team has redefined rock bottom ever since MacFail took over.

He is a master of deception. At the end of this season, he will have everybody believe that a new rebuilding era starts with the new manager. Hence, he buys himself another 3-4 years, during which he will give no more rats' behinds than he does now, collect his millions and move on to a new wreck site.

Peter Angelos needs to wake up from this lethargic sleep he is in, and finally realize that MacFail is bad for business.

Now he has the best opportunity to start fresh. He can hire a new GM who will gut the team and bring his own people up and down the organization.

MacFail has turned Baltimore into Chicago East with all of the rejects he's brought here at every level of the organization. It's no coincidence the Cubs haven't won a WS in 100+ years.

Im stunned that a roster of failed cubs prospects, utility players, guys playing out of position and retreads that were last good during the steroid era isn't flourishing

What gives ?

U cant make this up

For those of you who want to move the outfield walls back makes Zero sense.

Wieters 3 run home run the other night would be a can of corn if the walls were set back.

Also how would the O's go about this? The would have to move the bullpen seating, fan seating and the scoreboard dismantled. I don't see any cost effective way of doing that.

Lastly, the Orioles would be better served if pitching staff stop throwing cup cakes up there and then getting whiplash watching it fly out of the park.

The Orioles just aren't a good baseball team right now and we need to accept that, sadly!

Here's my opinion of the day --actually, of the last month.

MacPhail should drop the emphasis on the club being evaluated by wins and losses, etc. He should drop his aritifical stages of rebuilding, which mean nothing. Rather, he should come out and say something like the following:

"While statisitcs are important, at this point I am more concerned with the intangibles. I am considering how people react to the stress of dissapointment. Do they become anxious, press too hard, lose their joy...or do they find a way to enjoy the game, support their teamamates,
and remain 100 percent invested while not putting the whole world on their shoulders?"

The issues for this team relate to building personal efficacy and self-confidence.
These are every bit as important as the motor skills that brought them to this point. They will not win many games in the forseeable future -- might they still develop emotionally, however, so that they will not allow themselves to be defined by these experiences?

Can they just go out there and have some fun?

Dan W,

Easy, they can just move home plate back further like they did the last time they "moved the fences back" (misnomer)

Bryan,

WE're talking about a baseball team, not the anxiety ward at Bellevue

All that's going to happen if you move the fences back is that there will be more inside-the-park home runs since Adam Jones prefers to play second base instead of center field.

As for Weiters bunting ... I can only assume that Samuel is planning to put Kevin in the lead off spot so he can use his catcher's speed to get on base with the bunt single. Either that or Juan is using a magic 8 ball to determine managerial decisions.

Juan: "Should I bunt Wieters with 2 men on and no outs?"

8-ball: "Reply hazy. Try again"

Juan: (shakes ball violently), "C'mon, he's about to step in the box. Should I bunt Wieters?"

8-ball:"Concentrate and ask again"

Juan: (rubs the 8-ball like he's shining it), "2 men on, no outs. Should I bunt Wieters?"

8-ball: "Without a doubt"

Dan W.,

No matter who manages the team, or if Macphail is retained, the franchise needs an identity. Right now the Orioles have neither speed, power, pitching, or defense of any consistent nature. In the short term it would be easier to put together a top notch defensive team with speed. Sign a top of the rotation starter and go from there. Maybe one or two of the over hyped picthing prospects will eventually emerge. Camden Yards is really a bandbox and it is silly to send these kids out there white knuckled whenever a fly ball is hit. Move the fences back. Macphail is not going to spend money on marquee hitters but he should be able to go get some glove men. They are "a dime a dozen".

The conventional wisdom is that Macphail will do the only thing he knows how to do soon....trade washed up veterens for prospects. In doing so he should try to get speed and defense in return and at least try to do a few things right. So far his dithering and bumbling has turned the major league roster into a dysfunctional group with no cynergy and there is little help on the way in the minors as far as position players. He has made little progress since he got here from a rebuilding standpoint. Andy he appears to be impotent and helpless dealing in the modern era of player movement. Since Angelos won't fire him, Andy needs to wake up and develop a theme for the organization. Right now that theme is chaos.

Bryan,

Does your boss at work ever tell you, to "just go out there and have some fun", and don't worry about producing real results that you were hired for? Or does he show you the door and replace you with somebody capable for doing a better job than you? Does your employer hire a shrink for you, to get you in the right mindset to do your job right?

So how are PROFESSIONAL baseball players any different? You get paid to do a job. If you do your job and have fun in the process, yeah, that's great. But fun should come as a result of performing up to expectations and not the primary reason you go to work. You work because you have a skill that you are supposed to use to deliver results. This is not the little league my friend.

Gil great post. Since it looks like pete is trying to delete me from the post, i hope you and wayne will continue the battle. From where we started 3 years ago to where we are now i think we have way more supporters then we once did. people are starting to see the real truth about andy and what he has really done with this organization. NOTHING GIL its a real shame

Orioles downward spiral running out of control

By Tim Kurkjian
ESPN The Magazine

Archive

When the Baltimore Orioles lost Tuesday night, their record fell to 19-51, by far the worst in the major leagues, and equaling the worst first 70 games in club history, tying the 1988 Orioles. I covered that team every day. It lost the first 21 games that season; it was historically bad. And yet this team, in some respects, is even worse off than the 1988 team.

[+] EnlargeJason O. Watson/US Presswire
Juan Samuel is the latest man to be put in charge of the struggling Orioles.
In 1988, the fans in Baltimore loved the Orioles, win or lose. When they returned home after finally winning their first game of that season, fans packed Memorial Stadium on a Monday night to welcome home a team with a 1-23 record. Now, the fans in Baltimore have stopped coming out to the park, and they have stopped caring. It is so sad to watch a franchise with such a rich history and tradition falling this far. The Orioles are the only team in major league history to follow a 98-win season (in 1997) with 12 consecutive losing seasons. This will be 13 years in a row under .500, and this is shaping up as the worst of all.

And it is coming at the worst time. Down the road, the Washington Nationals have quietly built an improved team. And now, publicly and loudly with phenom Stephen Strasburg, the Nationals might be taking control of the baseball interest in the Washington/Baltimore area.

The only hope for the Orioles is to blow everything up and start over. Bobby Valentine, who has already interviewed for the managerial job, could do that. But he withdrew his name on Wednesday. Buck Showalter, who interviewed for the job on Wednesday, could do that. Bob Melvin, a former Oriole who likely will get an interview, could also do that. The detonation will have to begin in the minor leagues, which one source said "has very few position players as prospects.'' Most of the good young players in the system are in the major leagues, though some, such as pitcher Chris Tillman, have been sent back to the minor leagues because they aren't ready.

That is the most troublesome part of the 2010 Orioles. This was the year that they were supposed to turn the corner and perhaps get close to .500. Instead, they are going the wrong way. Some young players, including center fielder Adam Jones, appear to be going backward, not forward. And some of the veteran players that were acquired in the offseason, including first baseman Garret Atkins, haven't worked out. Through Tuesday, the team that played Eddie Murray at first base for 12 years has no homers from their first basemen this year.

But there is hope. The Orioles make a lot of money, mostly off their cable TV package with MASN. Lagging attendance is a problem, but there is money in place for the Orioles to improve in a hurry. They have managerial candidates capable of making swift and significant changes. They might not hire a manager until after the season, so he won't be associated with this year's team. That would be wise. Still, the sooner the rebuilding begins, the better.

Tim Kurkjian is a senior writer for ESPN The Magazine and is an analyst for "Baseball Tonight."

Dear Andy MacPhail,

I see tonight is Adam Jones mini-bobble head night. When am I going to get a mini-bobble head night? I was one of your prized signings this past off-season, and I have an infectious grin.

Do interim managers usually get fired? ROFL

Garrett Atkins smiles so much because hes still in shock McFail gave him all that money.

After that San Diego game the other day did Adam Jones really go to a scorer and ask for a call to be reversed to positively affect his stats?? ROFL ROFL ROFL way to go Jones keep blowing bubbles and care about yourself bum! Macfailure struck gold with this idiot!

http://espn.go.com/mlb/notebook/_/page/bbtn100624/baseball-tonight-clubhouse

http://espn.go.com/mlb/notebook/_/page/bbtn100624/baseball-tonight-clubhouse

Buster Olney points out about the MASN deal and the O’s making money off the nats popularity this season

Hmmmm where is that money going?? Not to baseball operations for the orioles thats for sure!

"With the worst record in baseball and a barren farm system, the Orioles are a major rebuilding job. A source close to the negotiations said that Showalter might be the leading candidate for the job".

By Tim Kurkjian
ESPN The Magazine

If Buck Showalter takes this job it will be like one last payday to ride off into the sunset with and not much effort involved.

See Garrett Atkins

Is funny how Oriole fans think they have a good farm system from the MASN brainwashing and Andy Macphail scams pulled on them for the last 3 years..

GO RAYS!

I have said it repeatedly that Peter Angelos is still running this baseball team, no matter what they lead you to believe. He sat through two 3 hour interviews with two different potential managers.

Who would want to work for that alligator face crusty old man? How convincing can he be sitting across the table from potential candidates, with a track record like his? Why don't you let your GM do his job? Write the check when you're asked. The way Bobby V was talking about the interview, I sensed that he didn't want to work for Angelos. I'm sure he was turned off by Angelos comments, which he talked about on the air.

Home come....

people (ken, smitty, cih, etc) don't comment how the Plan can still be on track when so many have bailed?

Pete said this was a 'Lost Year'.

AM said this year was a 'major step backwards'.

AM's hand picked manager was fired (in June).

The national media is no longer on board (at all).

So how come guys, if the Plan was on pace, those who have backed the Plan are bailing?

If the Plan was on track, wouldn't all this simply be listed as 'growing pains'?

And by the way, simply acknowledging that Atkins was a huge mistake isn't admitting anything. That one was a given.

This team is has FAR worse problems than Atkins.

Read the Kurkjian piece. Is he the end all be all? No. But since you've been referring to the national media for months, it does deserve a comment from one of you (any of you).

And if you don't want to comment on Tim's piece, there are MANY others you can choose from.

So that's it...... Just wondering what your comments are on the Plan given that everything above has been said and written.

Have a great day everyone. I'm up North and it's brutally hot up here. I can't imagine what it's like in Baltimore.

During the 3 hour meeting/interview between Buck Showalter and Peter Angelos the other day

Peter Angelos: Buck we need you to just pretend you’re the manager and act like things are in control while Macphail does his thing in the corner!

Buck: So you want to basically just use my name to buy you some more time to stockpile MASN money…

Peter Angelos: Exactly! Think of this as a high paying acting job! Nobody will think less of you because they will blame me and Macphail and we can redirect blame elsewhere like the players or how there is no salary cap. People love that one!

Buck: I have to think about this Mr. Angelos I play the game the right way and want to win!

Peter Angelos: With me you win either way Mr. Showalter. Winning on the field is overrated when you have easy access to all this cash MLB has made possible by brining the Nationals to the area.

Buck: I will have to think about this.
Peter Angelos: Think fast Mr. Showalter there are others that will be interested in this payday…

As Tim Kurkjian wrote, Macphail's rebuilding efforts so far amount to not only a big fat zero, but the organization is getting worse. Since Tim is considered "a knowledgeable baseball person" I think it there is now more of a national consensus that the Orioles have wasted another four years under Andy Macphail.

Since most agree now that the Orioles need to "Blow it up" and start over, Peter Angelos would be foolish to put the same man in charge of that process who was responsible for creating the current crisis. Macphail has built nothing. He has rebuilt nothing. To leave him in charge of another demolition and restart would likely beget the same results four years from now.

Does Andy have 8" X 10" glossies on either Peter Angelos or one of his sons?

Your spot on Gil! This organization is a disgrace under MacFailure and needs to be blown up. Andy Macphail needs to be either fired or put in a different position like marketing with MASN. That seems to be what hes better at anyway.

Hi All,

1.) You're right you could move the plate back. But I still say the home run by Wieters the other day would be a can of corn. And right now the Orioles need all the home runs they can get.
No to adjustments. Yes to better pitching

2.) I don't think the O's defense has been that bad. It hasn't been spectacular
The O's lost a few games this year because the ball hit a pebble and bounced over Tejada's head.

3.) If and when Felix Pie comes back.
The Orioles should have one of the better fielding outfields.

4.) Has anyone heard anything about Reimold? I googled him the other day and he's still struggling with his hitting.
Also, I heard they are trying him at 1st base?

5.) Lastly, MacPhail has done some good things. He got a lot of value for Bedard. He drafted some pretty good players. But the Free Agent Acquisitions
Gonzalez and Atkins left a lot to be desired. If somehow the Orioles suddenly develop the burning desire to imrove their pitching staff. Cliff Lee would be the only guy I would want.
I don't think that will happen though.

The Orioles organization (term used very loosly) really reminds me of the movie "The Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight" starring Don Knotts as Andy McFail.
How can a GM be so out of touch that he said at the end of last season we are now heading into "Phase II of the Plan". What is the Plan? Is losing 117 games pretty much on target? What is your infatuation with boarderline major league talent that you keep signing? When is your boy Atkins finally going to have his major league meal money stopped?
Andy, please come & sit on the O's dugout this Sunday vs. the Nats & hold court like you did just 3 long years ago & tell us again...Everything is right on track!
Pat Gillick...please come back & bring Larry Bowa with you!

Wayne,

I'll step up to the plate for ya;-)

I think parts of the plan are on track with HUGE amounts of growing pains. As I've said before, I am having difficulty believing in the plan, but I still want to believe.

That being said, I also agree with Pete that, even if MacPhail's plan is no longer working, the approach he tried to take was the best course of action, given the team's situation when he came on board. We needed to get better bodies in the minors, and while they may not be great bodies, I think they are better than they were 3-4 years ago.

Are things way off course right now? Absolutely! Do we now need to buy the bats, and lots of them? I think Stevie Wonder could see that it is now time to buy the bats!! I do seem to remember Andy saying he wanted to "grow the arms and buy the bats." Well, the arms are still growing, but there are a lot of arms. Now Andy has to follow through with the second half of that statement, like yesterday!

There you go Wayne. That's the best I've got. Hopefully, others can provide better arguments, but I have my doubts. What do you think?

wayne, ole buddy, I haven't bailed. I'm on here posting at various places all the time.

I'm as frustrated and out of my mind as the next guy. I just don't see the doom and gloom all of you see. But frankly, I just don't know what to say anymore, this defies all logic. I do believe MacPhail went about things the right way, but no one, even you, wayne, could have predicted the total collapse. I had them at 70 to 74 wins, I would have been happy with that.

Many in the national media were picking this team to finish ahead of Toronto this year, so it's not just us that were optimistic. I still say that this club has talent and maybe the right manager can bring it out of them. It makes no sense to get rid of Crowley right now because the new guy will want his own staff, but I agree that it is time for a new voice.

And let's face it, if they had gotten anything from 1B this year, they wouldn't be this bad. They could have very easily swept Tampa in the first series, but who knew that Gonzalez, coming off a very good year and with more closer experience than Sherrill had when they made him the closer, would drop such an egg?

This season is a head scratcher, but there is still time for them to show some life. I'm not saying they will, but there is time for it to happen.

All we can do is keep the faith.

Look at it this way. Would you rather have a run of the mill 74-88 club, or one that could make the history books? At least this season has brought out the passion on both sides of the aisle, and could possibly jolt the front office into doing something drastic. Either that, or the villagers with their torches will storm the castle walls and throw the Hunchback into the river.

blancione...wow what an ego! Is the only reason you get on this blog is to let everyone know you're right? How many days and posts do we have to listen to you tell Pete you are right? Everything you say has come true? I know and see all! By any chance is blancione your pen name? Could it be that you are really Jesus and do see and know all? Wow its such a privilege to actually read the words of such a soothsayer such as yourself. Thank you so much enlightening all of us.

Wayne,

Notice how the warehousers come here in oh-crap-reactive-mode after they sense that the MacFail Hate-o-meter points to red. I don't see any of them post before everybody else and defend the PLAN or justify the losses or anything else.

Sometimes they even try to act as real fans and "doubt the plan", but by some voice deep inside them, they are reminded that the plan is still on track and optimism reigns supreme.

The thing ya'll want to remember is that black beans are very good for you. Although high in carbs, they are very good cleansers of toxins (flatulance jokes aside) and help keep the body in tune.

On a side note, Chipotle rules. We never had them in NY, but upon coming the the hot southwest (112 degrees today) I fell in love. I also favor black beans, and recommend the carnitas.

http://www.sixwise.com/newsletters/06/12/13/what-is-the-healthiest-of-all-beans.htm

I have managed to get away from the Orioles{finally} this year by buying two front row season box seats to the York Revolution in the Independent Atlantic league. They cost around $350 a piece right on top of the field. It is great baseball and you will always be sure to recognize many names on both rosters when the teams play. The new Sovereign Bank Stadium in York is beautiful and the Revs play a 140 game schedule. The concessions cost less than half of what they do in Camden Yards and the teams play baseball the way it was meant to be played...they go all out at all times.

There were more than 5,000 fans in the park the other night and lots of Maryland tags in the parking lot. On many nights you will be able to see Brooks Robinson in the stands watching the games. Andy Etchebarren is the manager and he is old school. He pulls players right off the field in the middle of a game if they don't hustle. As of right now the Revolution are in first place in the division.

Stop wasting your money on the disaster in Baltimore and drive up Rt. 83 to York. I guarantee you will have not only have a great time but you will get your money's worth. It isn't quite major league calibre but neither is the team in Baltimore. Stop rewarding Peter Angelos until he puts a major league team on the field. Send a message. Come to York.

Hey einstein,tell me what your purpose on here is. I didn't see anything in your post talking about the orioles except to rip what i said. What i have said about this plan and the orioles over the last 3 years has come true, but the only reason i even mention it is because pete and posters like yourself rip everything i say all the time.

Meso,

I can't help but think that the "doubt the plan" comment was intended as a jab at me. If I'm taking that too personally, then I apologize. However, in case it was a jab at me, then I want to defend myself.

You can go back and look at my post history and you should find that over the past few years, I have made the majority of my posts during the summer. The reason for that: I am a teacher and just simply do not have the time or energy to read and comment on hundreds of posts a day during the school year. If I did, then I promise I would be around far more often.

As for defending the plan: it is admittedly difficult to defend right now, but since you obviously have your mind made up, I'm not going to bother trying to convince you otherwise.

And the part about optimism: it does rain supreme ;-). Remember: no rain = no rainbows

This blog has become about as readable as MS-13 graffiti.

Dan W. I agree with your idea of bringing Cliff Lee on board but further agree that unfortunately, that likely won't happen. We could use a true ace but the only way I see that happening is for one of the young guns like Arieta or Matusz to 'find it'. Guthrie and Millwood are average and any stud starter that's a free agent will likely sign for less rather than start for the O's and have a losing record, not to mention pitching in a launching pad park half the time.
I have to disagree with your assessment of the OF being good fielding when Pie comes back. Any games I have seen this year illustrated how bad the OF defense is!!Markakis is solid but Jones really looks lost at times and Patterson isn't terrible but he shouldn't even be starting. Pie has raw ball instincts, featuring bad reads/judgement and a pop gun arm that's not even accurate.

JTB,

No please do explain the plan. My problem with those defending the plan is that everything is a moving target. They have a hard time owning up. It's like those who voted for Bush who still think that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction or those who voted for Clinton who have convinced themselves that oral is not considered sex. And of course those who voted for Obama who think he is the Messiah and can do no wrong.

I would respect someone who can coherently justify Andy's MacFailures without saying:

We were told it was going to be painful. No free agents want to come here. Peter Angelos wants to write checks nobody wants to cash and yada yada yada.

I want warehousers, MacFailers and everybody else to judge every move equally, good or bad, and at the end grade MacFail based on actual productivity, not the potential for the future. He has been here long enough that he has a record. Can you or somebody defend the "moves" as they relate to the record?

Please enlighten me.

blancione I am not ripping what you're saying, in fact I agree with what you have said a number of times. I am not a plan supporter. I want the Orioles to be like they were in the 60's and 70's when I was a kid. I just get tired of hearing you tell everyone you are right over and over and over and over and over and over again. I think the people who get on here regularly know by now you were right on a number of things.

The Orioles draft SPs like the Lions draft WRs

Meso, I have asked that question half a dozen times in several different ways. When I do get a reply it is full of phsychobabble. I get attacked for being negative, they using talking points centered around the Bedard trade, the mess Andy inherited and refer to a writer in SI who over a year ago said the plan was the right thing to do as support for Andy. Meso, the simple answer is there is no empirical data, statistic, noted improvement, unshakable fact or tangible evidence that the "Plan" has done anything but fail. All you will get is rhetoric aimed at killing the messenger.

I guess I'll make a post regarding the plan...

Remember back when this all started and it was directly outlined to be a "grow the arms, buy the bats" philosophy? Add that to the anemic farm system and overpaid, mediocre big club roster and you have a recipe for future disaster.

I'm not a "I told you so" kind of guy, but I did post a few times back in the day about how the plan as stated would be difficult to pull off because of the many years of cultured losing. In this case, it has clearly been one of the biggest factors in stalling the growth of the franchise.

Last year, the farm system was considered one of the best in the the league, this year, we have Tim Kirkijan talking about how it is one of the worst. What changed? Oh, yeah, they are all on the major league team, with now proven players helping.

MacPhail has done one major thing wrong with this plan...he tried to grow the arms AND the bats. You can't do that unless you have a scouting department that is spot on...and this one is not. No offense to the ex-Cubs in the front office, but maybe taking a bunch of guys from a team that doesn't produce anyone of value (face it, the Cubs don't produce squat, what they have they bought either through free agency or through the international market) and moving them to an even worse team was a bad move.

Now, fans know for a fact, top FA's don't want to be here. It's true, if you are a big money player, you want to win to add to your legacy. Texiera has a ring, A-Rod has a ring, Schilling has multiple rings, the list goes on and on. Smaller market teams do win championships...look at the Marlins and D-Backs. The thing is, those smaller market teams won with huge single season payrolls. Both teams are still paying for those championships, heavily.

MacPhail brought scrubs in to evaluate and teach and these scrubs are teaching the drafted scrubs how to be scrubs. The teams needs an overhaul, not by bringing in the Cubs staff, but from bringing in the best minds and teachers.

Success breeds success, failure breeds failure. The O's are a failure...fix it.

And as a side note...think of how this would have went down this season if the O's didn't trade for Millwood and sign Atkins, but signed Russell Branyon, Jermaine Dye, John Garland, and Brett Myers. Maybe a difference of 15 wins at this point for a tiny bit more money. Oh and some protection for the young guys...hmm.

Gil,
Everyone knows that Andy Macphail’s time in Baltimore has been a disaster of epic proportions. The national media are running stories telling it like it is while the Baltimore media and MA$N are just getting bizarre. I read Pete’s blog and watch the MASN pregame just for laughs now.

Terry -

Acquiring Cliff Lee would be easy:

Step 1: Trade prospects for a true top of the rotation starter (ie: Dan Haren, Fausto Carmona)

Step 2: Trade prospects for a first baseman (ie: Kila Ka'aihue)

Step 3: Trade prospects for a shortstop (ie: Stephen Drew)

Step 4: Offer Lee more money than anyone else

Hey! I've got a Plan™! Just like Andy! The only difference is that mine isn't open-ended and full of broken promises and BS rhetoric.

I've just learned for sure that Angelos has sold the team to a Russian oil billionaire. McPhail is out, and Dave Trembley will be the GM. Felix Pie's injury is worse than reported, so he's going to retire and become the manager. I have the same insider source as blancione, and I'm likewise going to need you all to take this on faith because, like her, I'm a double-super-secret agent with exclusive insider information and I'm not allowed to tell you how I know what I know, or the unseen dark forces would make me disappear.

Mes, Gil, wayne,

You've asked.
I've provided.
You ask again...

And still the cycle continues...

1.) Overstate your perspective.
2.) Acknowledge your own brilliance.
3.) Play the victim.
4.) Put words in the mouths of others.
5.) Belittle those that differ from you.

maybe if you were sincere about wanting a discussion you could use a less provocative tone.

To the man with a hammer, the world is filled with nails.

How can anyone refer to the national media now when 2 years ago the same journalists were the ones singing praises about MacPhail? Of course it's easy to say the Plan has failed. Just like the warehousers, people hear what they want to hear and disregard the rest. The national media is full of it too.

For the few who questioned AM, they were right. The rest were kissing up to him and talking about "patience", "hitting rock bottom before it gets better" and other stale platitudes that I can't think of. Now they're jumping ship because it's become obvious AM has effed up.
Bravo.

Also, I'm no better, but wanted to believe something. It's became apparent to me at the end of the offseason that AM screwed up royally. He had his chance and he blew it. That's what pisses me off

If somehow the O's could get Cliff Lee.
I would not trade one of my top prospects to get him. Unless he signed an extension as part of the trade.
He would be a great addtion to the staff.
Not only as a player but as a mentor.

Also, I would never ever want Larry Bowa to manage the O's.
Let him stay in Dodger Land. Absolutely Not!

Just think, if Andy didn't think he knew it all we'd still have Rodrigo Lopez. At this point he'd be our ace. Still throwing strikes & still beating the Yankees.
And, let's not forget Bruce Chen...another castoff enjoying the big leagues while his former team becomes the laughing stock of baseball.
That's it Andy, keep loading the O's with no talent, washed up singles hitters. I'm sure each & every one of the best free agents have a date with you to discuss terms already highlighted on their blackberries.
Quick question Andy...when do we move into Phase III of "The Plan"?

"...that it's going to be all better some day soon"

Is Angelos ill?

Paulie, Shamrock, Lucky Horseshoe, or whatever you go by these days,

I am absolutely 100% sincere when I say that I would respect someone's opinion, whether I agree with it or not, who doesn't come up with excuses for this MacFailure, but rather uses convincing facts, draws parallels to support their argument as to why they grade MacFail the way they do.

I have the benefit of the record. My argument is easy. I give you that. But if you're going to take the position of defending MacFail, don't give me a bunch of hot air. Don't give me excuses. Give me examples and facts. Don't tell me he inherited a failed system. Other GMs inherited a failed system but they have turned it around. What has MacPhail done that has turned anything around? The facts are against you. So it will take a great degree of spinning to get out of this one.

Again, I would greatly respect someone who can make sense and not excuses.

P.S you can't use the future as part of your argument. Past and present only. We don't know what the future is going to be like, considering what we've seen in the past. We are going to be great in the future - is not a good argument for defending MacPhail.

This is my challenge to warehousers. Who will own it?

I'm about to turn off my computer, but out of morbid curiosity, I decide to check the Peter Blog to see if my good buddy wayne replied to me, and lo and behold, here's a challenge from none other than Mesotheliangelos. I had to cut and paste it, I'm not smart enough to type it on my own.

I accept your challenge, Mr. Mesotheliangelos, but since I'm on my way to work, I will have to do it when I get back tonight. I believe I have some things to say, but don't have time to say them now.

Real quick, though, I give the MacPhail plan an incomplete. Kind of like when you first take calculus. You don't do well on the first tests, but as you learn the subject, you get better. Mac's plan has failed the first few tests, based solely on this year's W/L record, but there's a lot of the semester to go.

Anyway, keep the faith, my brothers and sisters!!!!

paulie,

I simply asked for a comment regarding the Plan from those who have championed it, but who now face the fact that Pete, AM, the national press, etc, all acknowledge that this has been a wasted year.

Some like Pete and the national press even suggest that it's only going to get worse next year (there's nothing down on the farm).

So if everything is on point, why are those above being so negative? Wouldn't they just say these are growing pains within the Plan?

You can choose to comment on the subject or not.

If you do though, you may want to discuss how you were so incredibly wrong with your predictions, projections months ago.

I'm just saying that if you want to continue to be negative towards us, maybe you'll want to earn a semblance of cred before going on the attack so often.

ken,

Thanks for the reply. I actually felt your pain with that post. It must be tough being as disappointed as you obviously are. Guys like me aren't nearly as disappointed because we saw this coming.

But you're right ken.... even I didn't think things would be this bad. I felt AM's talent evaluators were a little better than this. How do they even have jobs at this level?

Meso,

They don't have much of a choice anymore. Instead of defending what guys like Pete have said about what's happening, they attack us. That's what they have.

At least guys like ken do make an attempt however. ken's not a warehouser, rather he's seems to be a very positive person who isn't associated with the club in any way.

Anyway, I've been away for a week and I honestly don't even know what the teams record is anymore. I do see the losses though.

Question: Are the Marlins in the AL East? Because as I've heard so often, the O's are terrible because of the division they're in, right?

Has there been realignment that I never heard about? Are the Marlins, A's, Nationals and Mariners in the AL East?

They must be.

Ken,

Looking forward to your post; however it appears you're suggesting what I was exactly talking about early: open-ended-moving-target approach. Or put otherwise: the plan is still "on track / in progress" as long as we're losing, and has succeeded when we finally win. Kind of like having your cake and eating it.

Going out of town? C'mon Pete, that's just not fair. Shouldn't you be watching an O's game and suffering like the rest of us? Maybe Garrett Atkins will get the start tonight, geez, it's been so long since they took his 1 homer bat out of the game, I think I may have forgotten his first name. It is Garrett, right? Or maybe they released him and nobody noticed? I think Rick Dempsey said it best. This team is scoring early and then the bats become "null and void". That's great Rick, "null and void". I like it. Sure nailed it for last night.

I fully believe that the McPhail plan is the only plan that any team can use to be successful. Do I agree with all of his decisions - absolutely not.

AM was crucified for signing Pie - injuries aside, he has shown signs of being the real deal. Hopefully he's not Nick Johnson reincarnated.

Has he signed enough pitchers over the last 2 years - once again, No!

The Rays have been talked about as heroes for their plan - it took them 12 years. AM has been he 3+. Two consensus picks have not quite been what we were hoping for so far (Wieters, and to a certain extent Matusz).

I think the O's scouting needs to re-work their priorities with pitching. I'm tired of guys who throw 95+ and can't hit the side of a barn.

I hope Hobgood (last yrs #1 works out) but drafting High School pitchers is a very risky plan. The O's getting a bunch of solid but more sure things is much less risky.

Unfortunately we were hoping that this year we would have answers - but it appears to be, at least so far, more questions: Reimold, Jones, Wieters, Tillman...

It is hard to bring as many young guys up at the same time as they are trying to do.

I must admit - I'm tired of the losing. Spend some money and let the kids spend a little more time in the minors.

"I give the MacPhail plan an incomplete. Kind of like when you first take calculus. You don't do well on the first tests, but as you learn the subject, you get better."

ken -

This is where the frustration lies. When Andy MacPhail was hired, he was touted as an elite team builder. A guy with two World Series wins under his belt and a few years in the playoffs in Chicago.

When The Plan™ started, it wasn't supposed to be a "learn as you go" experience highlighted by failure upon failure upon failure, etc... It was supposed to be a "this guy is going to turn this team into a contender" deal. Three years later, we're at least another three years from contending, unless Andy drastically changes his approach.

But, since we have to be honest with ourselves, we all know that Andy isn't going to change his approach. Slow, steady and waiting for seven or eight prospects to click at the same time is what he's looking for. Because we can't compete with the Red Sox and Yankees financially. Because we're in the toughest division in baseball. Because free agents don't want to come here. Because we can't "block the kids". Excuses, excuses.

When it comes down to it, The Plan™ is a complete and total failure. Look at all of the players Andy has brought in over the past three years, vets and prospects alike. Aside from George Sherrill and two months of Adam Jones in 2009, not one of them has made a difference. And the young guys are getting worse instead of better. Jones is striking out like a guy who should be hitting 50 homers a year (yet he's on pace for what? 17?) and walking like a little leaguer who doesn't understand the strike zone. Matusz keeps leading us on with a string of solid starts, although he throws way too many pitches every time he takes the mound, then he gets destroyed. Wieters looks like he should be playing slow pitch softball. Bergesen and Reimold were both forced into full time jobs that they weren't ready for because of their injuries. Now, Bergy's getting jerked around between the majors and minors, with no regard for his development, and Reimold's hitting .210 in AAA. Tillman's a beast in AAA, but he can't make the adjustment to the majors.

And you know what? All of that lies on MacPhail as well. It's not a coincidence that every single one of the young "cornerstone" guys isn't progressing. It's the atmosphere that MacPhail has created. He didn't bring in enough veteran player support for such a young inexperienced team, and the coaching staff is a ridiculous jumble of former Orioles who wouldn't even be considered for a job with any other franchise in the game. Throw in the understaffed scouting department and the feeling of old-school nepotism across the entire organization, and you've got one big unhappy family.

The Plan™ is not on track. Nothing is in progress, unless you're talking about the backwards progression (read: regression) of the formerly talented young talent. This year has been a massive step backwards, and now we're right back where we were when Andy got here in 2007. A horrendous MLB roster and a handful of solid pitching prospects, one or two of which might pan out. Where's the ace? Where's the slugging first baseman? Where's the shortstop? Where's the third baseman? Where's the left fielder? Where's the bullpen? Where's the emphasis on international scouting? Where's the top quality coaching staff? Where are the minor league bats? I mean seriously. Looking at those question marks, it sure looks to me like we're worse of than we were in 2007.

So what's next? Another three year plan? Waiting for more prospects to pan out? Taking more Atkins-esque gambles? Trading for another Kevin Millwood? Signing another Miguel Tejada (or worse, resigning Tejada)? I've shared my thoughts over the past few days, and I still believe this team has the right prospects around to swing deals for Dan Haren, Stephen Drew and Kila Ka'aihue. So let's see it. Forget about "grow the arms, buy the bats". Andy never subscribed to that anyway. Trade for an arm and a few bats, show free agents that mediocrity won't be accepted in Baltimore from now on, and then buy the arms (Lee) the bats (Crawford, Dunn/Peña) after the season.

The team has the money to support a payroll well north of $100M, so let's see an end to the excuses. The Sternberg/Friedman Rays never made excuses, and look where they are with a $70M payroll. If this pathetic joke of a GM could stop making excuses and start holding himself accountable, think of where the O's could go with $100M...

Chris T. wrote: "8-ball: 'Without a doubt'"

Yeah, it's exactly like that! LOL

Have Wieters bunt...brilliant!

Hey, and maybe we could have him bunt...brilliant!

Chris T. wrote: "8-ball: 'Without a doubt'"

Yeah, it's exactly like that! LOL

Have Wieters bunt...brilliant!

Hey, and maybe we could have him steal second...brilliant!

Jack you are not throwing Bruce Chen in Andy's face are you??? while we can all agree how bad this situation is and the terrible signings like Atkins, you can't be serious in saying we'd be better with Bruce Chen! He was HORRIBLE! What did he have a 6+era and gave up 28 hrs in 98 innings. The fact he is still in the league and manages to pitch at all, proves he sold his soul.....

jack -

I have no clue why you brought up either of them, but...

Bruce Chen was granted free agency on October 31st, 2006.

Rodrigo Lopez was traded on January 12th, 2007.

Andy MacPhail was hired on June 18th, 2007.

So if you really want to blame someone for the absence of Rodrigo and Chen, you've got to blame that Mike Flanagan robot that was controlled by Peter Angelos.

Rodrigo Lopez and Bruce Chen are the last things this team needs right now. If MacPhail signed either or both of these guys, he's be roasted ten times more than he already is!!
Let's put these pitchers in our blocked-out memory bank...and try to forget how awful both were during their O's tenure.
What's next-trips down memory lane celebrating the 'successes' of Jay Payton and David Segui?
Time to move forward and figure out a way to get this once-proud franchise back to its' winning ways. Maybe the 40 year re-union will show fans and the brain trust what real ballplayers are supposed to look like!

PS - I found bob's source for his Dempsey conspiracy at the place where O's conspiracies are born: WNST. Here's the link: http://wnst.net/wordpress/drewforrester/2010/06/24/is-os-manager-search-now-peter-vs-andy/

Brilliant post nb..... There's not a single segment of your post that can even be debated.... at least not reasonably.

This is Turdland.

Millwood is a joke now. Just disgusting. How can a major league pitcher give up first-inning runs in seven straight starts and a total of 17 runs in that span. In the first inning!! Another brilliant McPhail move, every move he made in the offseason has turned out brutal (Gonzo, Tejada, Atkins, Millwood). 0 for 4.

Jake Fox? A good pick up? Actually, Jake Fox can play some ball. He was mainly a catcher in the minors and displayed power at each level. Can't be any worse than the players we have now.

i guess wieters is on the bench tonite in case samuel needs someone to bunt in the later innings. The summer session of University of Stupidity is now in session. Try to pay attention.

I wonder when the Orioles come off the board in Vegas because every game is a guranteed loss? We're getting dangerously close to that if we aren't already there.

millwood is shot. guess he'll have to settle for going 0-18 in an Os uniform. He is without value.

He can't go 0-18, jim. He won on Sunday. Or was it Saturday? It feels like forever ago.

In other news, Adam Jones has struck out 10 times without taking a walk in his last 49 plate appearances.

Which milestone will Jones reach first this season? 100 strikeouts or 10 walks?

PS - Jones does have a .949 OPS in that time, which goes to show you how good he could be if he learned some plate discipline.

Chris -

They're reviewing Millwood's win against the Padres. Unnamed sources are reporting that the Orioles didn't try hard enough to lose, as each of the relievers that threw in that game had ERA's under four.

It's going to be close, but with former Orioles Jay Tibbs and Randy Milligan on the panel, Millwood just might get to keep his win.

Re the win in SD...I think the effort was there, but they came up a little short, said a disgruntled fan. "The sobbing was so ferocious that it could be heard over at Dirty Dick's" reported an unnamed source who was privy to the situation.

In a totally unrelated item, the Unnamed Source is not, repeat NOT, related to the Unknown Comic.

How about a little humble "Pie" the other way too... how many of the regulars blasted Berken as a very mediocre pitcher who would never make it long term in the bigs???? come on now fess up...at least so far he's one of the few bright spots this year
I do agree We all have to be more patient and everything will be fine

i think if we did some math, jones might be on pace for say 25 hrs. if he learns the strike zone and with some discipline, maybe he gets himself in some better counts and he gets a few more.
i say he gets to 100 ks but picks up a few more walks along the way...i'm going out on a limb for 17 at that time

If you do though, you may want to discuss how you were so incredibly wrong with your predictions, projections months ago.

Posted by: wayne | June 24, 2010 4:51 PM

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wasn't wrong.

Because I never claimed anything. In fact one of the reasons I was against the Bay's, Hollidays, Figgins's of the off season was because the team had yet to prove who was/wasn't going to be worth building around.

My position has been, and still is, that predicting the future is for those with crystal balls. No reasonably intelligent person can say "by adding x,y,z, we're going to be successful." Looking at the M's this off season, everyone had them being a top contender. I guess the National media messed that one up just as much as they messed up the O's predictions.

You've reached your conclusion on AM, and that's fine. For the record, while I disagree with both your conclusion and your tone of comments, I don't take it out on you. I'm not trying to belittle you.

I will have a comment about the "plan" in a minute (stuck watching the NBA draft and that baseball game...very busy night...)

Good point Smitty, I never thought Berken would be effective in the majors. I didn't think he had the necessary stuff to pitch well as a reliever either. He is sort of a tweener, not a starter and not a closer but he's got smarts on the mound.

Folks,

I say it for about the fourth time in the last two months, but has anyone else noticed how well Berkin has pitched, I think he has more than earned a chance at the vacant start Tillman/Bergesen. I just saying!

Wayne, I believe you grossly overestimated AM's talent evaluators! If they can't see what Berkin is doing, it's the reverse of Hernandez where we all said since the middle of last year he works best when only going through the order one time!

These guys are mental midgets!

I told you so!

The truth will set you free!

Oh great nb like you should just spend the 100 million? Spending on mediocre free agents is what got us into this (among other things) and all you want to do is blow this up when we are closer than you may think. You would have already saddled us with matt holidays contract for the next decade, huh?
Some of you guys ure are a negative lot...that's alright hang in there next year should be much better...in fact the second half of this year should be fun to watch

And through it may not be a very positive philosophy with in tthe lewss than integgigent following that the "DUMB SCHMUCK" believe he has. The BEST MOVE is for the SPORTS staff to dumb all non competent ribble scripts and REPORT not Editorizal. The depth of knowledge of ANY GAME l'ies at the elementry school level. Schmuck has TROUBLE find a butt with one hand much less than both hands.

HOLY CRAP!

A weeks worth of runs in ONE game!!!

Something magic happens... every time you go...

First they get to 20, then they get the money, then they get the khaki's, then they get the women...

btw
I realize Matt Holliday has really heated up and would look good right now, but 7 years? really? 120 million? really? Nah
That contract is probably going to look really bad halfway through it....

"It's not a coincidence that every single one of the young "cornerstone" guys isn't progressing".

That is what is called an ""overstatement" in the end of June....in fact it may be shown to be an extremely incorrect statement in a month or two

I don't usually contribute this much, but ... once in a season.

Here's what I don't get about people who hate "The Plan" (which is really what we call the last 2.5 years of this franchise).

What do we do NOW?

I mean... there were lots of missed opportunities, lots of failures... absolutely. MacPhail's failure to bring in truly meaningful pieces from free agency has been staggering and embarrassing. Like many, I protested in disgust at the signing of Atkins as just the next Wigginton or Millar or Scott - another guy whose "upside" will be talked about for days and yet never realized. I rant without end, like many, about the ridiculous "optimism'' that is shoved down my throat nightly.

But there have been some solid moves. As much as some like to bash on the development (or lack thereof?) of some young players, the moves to get those young players and develop them are hardly worthy of the great criticism they get. From Wieters to Jones to Matusz to Tillman... as great as their failures have been this year, I still want them to be a part of this club.

Not because they are a "part of the plan" and I have succumbed to some distorted view of reality. But because they are legitimately quality young players who need time (and coaching) to develop.

So... what do we do now?

We can rag on the job of MacPhail and Trembley and many, many others. But none of that will FIX the problems we see in front of us. People talk about "starting from scratch" (again)... but is this not "scratch?" Is there any lower to go?

So what do you want to do? You've had your months of complaining. But like many, I hate to listen to complaining. We each get a few minutes to vent and then it's time to work. So what work do you want to see done?

Sure, like many, I want to see a series of legitimate free agent signings to bolster the offense and anchor the rotation. But that can't happen for at least a few months.

What else? Do you abandon the small steps forward that we have taken with younger players? Do you abandon Jones, Wieters, Matusz, Tillman and others because they came as a part of "the plan?"

I am furious with Angelos. I am beyond furious with MacPhail. I was long before the season started. It's only gotten worse as the season has progressed. There is NO excuse for the product we have seen on the field.

But what now?

In my mind, the very best we can do is hold on to the few bright spots (if struggling) and hope to make improvements in the off-season. But the whining, the yapping, the barking and the bitching is just as annoying as the pathetic play of the team.

I'm not claiming we are "close" ... we are not. I know that. We all know that. But there is no more "starting over" to do. You can only take the pieces with some luster and hope they turn out in the time it takes to turn the rest around.

Meso,

I am sorry for the long delay in responding. Thank you for your post. I will do my best to try to explain the plan as I understand it, but I promise that this will not be the end-all-be-all. I will also tell you how well I think MacPhail has done to date at this point. I think we'll find that we agree on a few things at the end of this.

As I said earlier, I believe the gist of the plan was to "grow the arms and buy the bats." I.e. - restock the farm system, yada yada yada. I think, initially, Andy did a good job of restocking. I think, after the initial wave, however, there are very few options left in the minors right now, so at best he gets a "C" on this aspect of the plan.

The grow the arms part: I think there isn't any doubt that there has been some SEVERE growing pains this year, but I do believe that within 3 years we will have a rotation that is 80% homegrown, with the one member who isn't homegrown being a bona fide ace that was brought in (we can dream, right?). In that respect, I think Andy gets a "B," at best, with his biggest failing being the lack of someone we can point to and say "that's an ace and one of the top 10 pitchers in the league).

The buy the bats part: without a doubt, Andy FAILS!!!!!! Enough said.

Overall, based on our current record (like you asked), the best I can Andy for his present grade is a "D," and that's being generous. I will also grant you that Andy may not be the best person to turn us around, but do you think someone else could come in here and turn us around in the same amount of time or less than MacPhail has been here? I asked this on a previous post, but it got lost in a shuffle. What would you like to see happen that will help the team improve instantly? Thanks!

Did two marlins RPs make their ML debuts in the game tonight?

Why doesn't Tatum get more of a shot to play more and let Wieters DH?

I think a month straight squatting every night in the crappy April-May weather wore him down.

Imagine....

You're the President of a company. An employee of said company arranges a meeting with the owner.

In this meeting, the employee suggest what is wrong with the company, and what is needed to right the ship.

You (the President) are told about this meeting (after the fact). How do you respond?

By saying the meeting was 'a good thing' of course.

I applaud Nick for calling for the meeting. He's obviously had enough. So much so that he could care less that he's going around AM.

No matter how AM responds though, he looks incredibly weak in this scenario. Anyone.... I mean ANYONE who has been in a significant business nows I'm 110% correct.

This can not be spun.

Gil,

I'm now thinking you're correct. AM is much closer to being out than I imagined.

What Nick presented to PA (from what we know) is basic common sense. Many of us said last year that AM must surround the young developing players with quality veterans.

How come we knew that? How come a young player knows that?

And how come AM never figured it out?

We don't have to start over people. We just need a GM who understands what Nick was telling PA.

I think you called it Gil..... I think AM's going to get the hook much sooner than anticipated.

Thanks Nick...

JTB,

MacPhail knows baseball. I can't take that away from him. He has a proven record as a winner, but unfortunately he negates that with a terrible losing record in Chicago and Baltimore. When you pay a guy that kind of money to turn around failing franchises, it's about what have you done for me lately.

I am one of the few that will give MacPhail the benefit of the doubt. I think he was brought to Baltimore to cut down the payroll, not necessarily to win. The mediocre moves support my argument. What GM in his right state of mind would acquire Luke Scott, Garret Atkins, Mike Gonzales, Julio Lugo and on and on and on.

I tend to believe that if MacPhail was given 100+ million dollars to work with, he would have done a fine job.

But the problem is MacPhail has said that he has all the support he needs from Angelos, and that he is the one who is calling the shots. So, in light of that information, I have to say that MacPhail has put a target on his back, especially now that Trembley is gone.

1. The biggest mistake that MacPhail made was hiring Trembley as an interim manager and extending his contract. The team needed a manager with major league management experience. No minor league jokester could turn around 13 years of losing.

2. MacPhail put more emphasis on image, fluff and PR than he put on rebuilding a team

3. He started very well, with good intentions, making trades that looked good on paper, but there was no plan to develop those players thereafter. There was no MLB worthy coaching to help the players progress. We have seen a phenomenon in Matt Weiters who tore apart minor league pitching, regress worse than any other first round prospect in recent memory. We saw Adam Jones going from an All-star to a minor league caliber player.

4. MacPhail gambled with unproven veterans who had shown brief moments of potential, and the gambling failed.

To answer your question about who would do a better job than MacPhail, I don't know. I think the manager is the guy who makes the more impact. Look at what Jim Leland did in Florida and Detroit, and John Maddon in Tampa.

MacPhail needs to hire an experienced MLB manager. He needs to walk into Angelos office and demand money and a commitment to winning. He needs to have absolute control of the ball club up and down.

He needs to trade prospects for big bats. Everyone should be fair game for trades. Even Matusz, Arrietta or Markakis. The bar should be set high. No player should be hitting less than 240-250, I don't care how good their glove is. Izturis and Lugo have no business playing in the big leagues.

The scouting dept. needs to be gutted. And lastly, MacPhail should address the fans with a written apology. Kind of what the Nationals did last year. Acknowledging failure is the right first step towards success. MacPhail has yet to admit he has failed. His stay the course tactics don't work any longer.

Finally, I don't think MacPhail will ever get Angelos to fork over enough money he needs to compete.

Dan,

Fans need to be outraged. What you call bitching, moaning, crying etc, actually works. Nobody likes to do it / hear about it, but you know what? The Warehouse is hearing it. Being positive about the situation only helps you keep your own sanity, but doesn't make the team win. The more you become desensitized to losing (as a fan), the easier it become for Angelos to continue to get a pass.

We can't sit here and hope that the Warehouse will take the right steps. It won't happen. They have taken us for granted for years.

Fans need to boycott the beloved Camden Yards, as painful as it is. I for one, have not been to a game this year. I much rather prefer watching the Bowie Baysox.

"The Plan"

a.) get young high talent guys in system/majors.
b.) buy bats.
c.) grow arms.
d.) rebuild organization.

A.) Success. There is more raw talent in the organization than before. Between trades and drafting, it's hard to argue talent, and it's also the reason media believed the O's could be special this year.
Producing? Obviously not. Can you expect youth to struggle? Obviously. Are there examples (not the rule) other wise. Obviously. But, this is not untypical of youth.

B.) Success. (stop yelling/laughing). Miggy good. Atkins bad. Gonzalez injured. Tired for Bedard...still injured. Tried for Tex....
--yes, there are Examples of other Free Agents that have been better...but not most. Give the name of a good Free Agent, and I'll match you with one's that have been bad (that many had advocated for on these very boards).

C.) Push. Far to early to evaluate failure/success. They were good in the minors. This is the first full season for many of the best...some not even.

D.) Fail. While there were initial moves to rehabilitate the Organization, and BIG outlays of money invested, that trend has not continued/produced. There is more damning evidence than good.

Conclusion. On it's face, the "plan" is a good idea. Hell, it's obvious in many ways. But, it has not produced the results DESIRED. It might produce the results EXPECTED still though.

Andy hasn't thrown up the "Mission Accomplished" banner.

Meso,

I agree on all points, including a few that I hadn't thought of before. With that in mind, I have a new question in regards to the manager: who would you choose to manage the team, assuming that they can be bought with a blank check?

Meso-

2. MacPhail put more emphasis on image, fluff and PR than he put on rebuilding a team
********
I beg to differ. I have not heard one puff of optimism from AM. He has never set time tables, deadlines, etc. Fans and media have done this. The teams marketing dept does the 'fluff'. Just like the TV announcers, what the hell are they supposed to do, act depressed and dreary in advertising? Maybe they can pull a Harry Doyle and call games drunk? Its a business, they have a product to sell.

Finally, I don't think MacPhail will ever get Angelos to fork over enough money he needs to compete.
**********
It is pretty widely known that PA wanted AM to spend money this year, but AM did not think it was the right time, which, it really wasn't. Do you want a team hamstrung for years to come with average players making $17mil a year?

This team on paper should be far better than it is in reality, less the outbreak of implosion-itis in the locker room. No team is a 110 loss team. They should accidentally have 25-30 wins.

No, this year is special in an infamous way.

This year is a 4 standard deviation year. The probability of this season happening is a .03% chance.

The O's are hell freezing over.

They are dogs and cats, living together, mass hysteria!!!

They are a bigger market correction than seen in 2008.

Mes,

Trading Matusz?

Top 5 pick from 2008, with hardly a Season's worth of Innings.

really?

that's a short leash.

John The Baptist,

really agreeing with Mes on all points?

I dig the anger, it's not unwarranted, but cooler heads should prevail.

There's a bit of rashness floating around, no?

It's not inconceivable that Adam Jones will represent the Orioles in the All-Star Game. Look at his numbers compared to Markakis and forget about Wigginton, guy has done nothing in 6 weeks.

JTB,

Bobby V would have been a great choice, but he doesn't want a part of this, perhaps because he was turned off by Angelos. Buck Showalter is a good choice as well. MacPhail is definitely interviewing the right folks for the job; however if these high profile managers turn them down, I'd give the job to Rick Dempsey until 2011 when Jim Leyland becomes available. Heck, I would even trade prospects to get Jim Leyland before his contract is up.

Paulie,

Yes, I'd be willing to deal Matusz, not because I don't think he's good. Au contraire. I think he is going to be a good pitcher. But you've got to give up good prospects to get big time bats. You will not get Prince Fielder if you didn't give up Matusz, let's face it. And I'd make that trade in a heartbeat. I'd package Matusz, Jones and Tilman for Fielder. Yeah I get that Matusz was a top 5, but Adam Loewen was 4th overall. Your point?

"The Plan"

a.) get young high talent guys in system/majors.
b.) buy bats.
c.) grow arms.
d.) rebuild organization.
- paulie

a) PUSH - Yes, there is some young talent and some of that is actually Andy's doing. However, they are promoted way too soon and the farm system suffers as a result. Young talent needs to develop and being tossed to the wolves at an early age with little support derails anything inherited or done well.

b) FAIL - Using Tejada as Exhibit A makes this a "fail" almost by default. The Orioles got rid of Tejada because he lost his range and lost his power stroke, but brought him back to learn a new position. The Orioles are woefully lacking in power and that is no surprise. They are woefully lacking in any concept -- not only no power but no speed and no defense either. At least the '88-89 teams were built around a concept and a theme. The '09-10 team is not.

c) FAIL - Success or even a "push" would require some effort in the growing part of "grow the arms." Drafting and trading for them is only Step One in what you yourself admit is a process. That process not only gets derailed by rushing them along, but also putting them in positions to fail. Palmer, Flanagan, MacGregor, etc. became starters after minor league play and some carefully placed relief appearances early in their development. Boddicker was a long-time minor leaguer. On top of everything, The Plan itself was derailed by the Gonzalez signing as it not only brought in a man of little success, it cost the Birds a second round draft choice when they get no extra picks already.

d) FAIL - We agree on this but I would add for this to work out correctly, this should be as much near the top as anything. The reason you should sign players at the big league level is so the prospects can "grow" in the minors. This magically builds the organization. When the would-be signed players who could have given the Orioles 70-85 wins (depending on who and how many) left the team, the Orioles could have either traded them for more players, or let them go as free agents so they would get supplemental draft picks. Some signees may have stayed, and some prospects could join the parent club when they were ready.

Conceptually, The Plan is doomed to failure unless a crazy amount of prospects -- triple or quadruple what is normal -- is acquired and developed. Even if one believes The Plan is an acceptably slow process, there should be improvement. There has been no improvement.

Even worse, the players who have been signed or traded for are playing for themselves and looking forward to the day they no longer wear orange and black (unless it's SF). Perhaps, the prospects feel the same way once their tenure is done. That's no plan.

Paulie,

Let's look at the points that I think Meso made, and you tell me if I missed any.

1.) MacPhail knows baseball.[...] When you pay a guy that kind of money to turn around failing franchises, it's about what have you done for me lately. Any questions about this one?

2.) [MacPhail] was brought to Baltimore to cut down the payroll, not necessarily to win. This one is debatable, but based on what we've seen, I will agree with Meso on this one. However, I want to believe that he will win.

3.) if MacPhail was given 100+ million dollars to work with, he would have done a fine job. Does anyone out there doubt this?

4.) The biggest mistake that MacPhail made was hiring Trembley as an interim manager and extending his contract. The team needed a manager with major league management experience. No minor league jokester could turn around 13 years of losing.. I liked Trembley, and I thought he deserved a chance, but it became apparent that he wasn't the person who could lead this team.

5.) He started very well, with good intentions, making trades that looked good on paper, but there was no plan to develop those players thereafter. I think all of the early season regression and the "Norfolk Shuffle" with some of our players is evidence of this.

6.) MacPhail gambled with unproven veterans who had shown brief moments of potential, and the gambling failed. Two words: Atkins. Lugo.

7.) MacPhail needs to hire an experienced MLB manager. He needs to walk into Angelos office and demand money and a commitment to winning. He needs to have absolute control of the ball club up and down. The first part seems to be a no-brainer, and if the second and third sentences aren't true, then they need to be.

8.) He needs to trade prospects for big bats. Everyone should be fair game for trades. Even Matusz, Arrietta or Markakis. The bar should be set high. Obviously, some of our players are worth more than others. However, if Arizona called and said they'd give us Dan Haren, Stephen Drew, and Ian Kennedy for Matusz, then I think we'd have to jump on that before they realize how much they'd be getting fleeced. I'm not saying we definitely trade these guys, and I don't think Meso is saying that either, based on his "set the bar high" comment. Is it a quick hook on Matusz? Yes, absolutely. But I would expect a MUCH better return than we got for Bedard.

9.) The scouting dept. needs to be gutted.. Maybe not necessarily completely gutted, but vastly overworked, especially in the international department.

So Paulie, those were the points I took from Meso's post. Did I miss any? Also, just because I agree with them doesn't mean I want to see them executed with reckless abandon. I look forward to your response.

Paulie,

About the plan. OK, as I said, I respect your opinion and they way you stated your case. Yes the plan is obvious; however the execution has been terrible, as evidenced by the results on the field. When we criticize the plan, we don't criticize the blueprint that was laid out in front of us. We criticize the execution. The plan is hardly original anyway. Isn't that what every team not named the Yankees does?

waspman,

responses to your...

A.) "Surrounding the guys" position: B-Rob, Miggy, Millwood, Wigginton, Ohman. These are the senior guys of the club. Each is a good example of a "ball player" for the youth. Good mentor guys. The other part is, who? As in I which players that "protect" the youth are you referring too? Matt Holliday?

B.) Tejada is a good player. Plays hard, has a good arm for 3rd, and can bat...power lost, sure. But a solid enough player. Good example of work ethic. Wiggington, seems like a good Free Agent. The issue may be lack of "sex appeal" with the Free Agents, and some duds, but the Free Agents aren't as bad as people thing. Some are.

C.) We'll have to acknowledge that the way to bring arms up varies and there are many ways teams have done it both successfully and not so. Just because it worked in the past, doesn't NECESSARILY mean it's the only or better way to do such. It may well be.

D.) Yes.

Doomed to failure: disagree with amount that need to succeed to revitalize a club. I'm not saying that all will, or even most, will succeed. But I am saying we don't know WHICH will and won't right now.

John The Baptist,

1.) MacPhail knows baseball.[...] When you pay a guy that kind of money to turn around failing franchises, it's about what have you done for me lately. Any questions about this one?

{{Andy has done a lot, I guess we differ on how much. Since 2007, the starting line-ups and rotations have guys acquired and developed and now in the Majors. Learning.)

2.) [MacPhail] was brought to Baltimore to cut down the payroll, not necessarily to win. This one is debatable, but based on what we've seen, I will agree with Meso on this one. However, I want to believe that he will win.

{{payroll is cut, talent is up. Justifiable trade off for the time being}}

3.) if MacPhail was given 100+ million dollars to work with, he would have done a fine job. Does anyone out there doubt this?

{{He does have 100$ million to work with. He's offered it. Heck, the O's even before Andy offered $190 Mill to Paul Konerko. But having and spending are different discussions. I'm not eager to see Andy spend that type of money unless it's WELL worth it. Jason Bay...no. Tex...yes. Holliady...no. Fielder...yes. AJ Burnnett...no.}}

4.) The biggest mistake that MacPhail made was hiring Trembley as an interim manager and extending his contract. The team needed a manager with major league management experience. No minor league jokester could turn around 13 years of losing.. I liked Trembley, and I thought he deserved a chance, but it became apparent that he wasn't the person who could lead this team.

{{Dave Trembely wasn't going to be here when the O's are pushing to be in a Race. Dave was a developer. Firing Dave for another Dave, to fire that Dave and hire a "name" when in contention is kinda a bad idea. Would a Buck Schowalter have made this season a winner? Pretty sure Not. The talent is still raw and learning, yell, scream, benching...these are techniques of teaching, but Learning is done with Practice.}}

5.) He started very well, with good intentions, making trades that looked good on paper, but there was no plan to develop those players thereafter. I think all of the early season regression and the "Norfolk Shuffle" with some of our players is evidence of this.

{{It could also be evidence that the Majors are a different level of play than AAA and 1 year is hardly enough time to Develop into a MLB player. It's not encouraging...but it's not unprecedented either.}}

6.) MacPhail gambled with unproven veterans who had shown brief moments of potential, and the gambling failed. Two words: Atkins. Lugo.

{{totally true. Others are better. Ohman, Miggy, Wiggington...good enough at the price. Good buys. As for gambling on Atkins, it was a gamble and it didn't work...if it did, trading season would be great right now...could have gotten a nice package deal.}}

7.) MacPhail needs to hire an experienced MLB manager. He needs to walk into Angelos office and demand money and a commitment to winning. He needs to have absolute control of the ball club up and down. The first part seems to be a no-brainer, and if the second and third sentences aren't true, then they need to be.

{{It would seem they are all true. PA has been pretty stand-offish. Again, the money is there...just need a place to spend it. I think it's very cynical to think AM and PA have discussions on how to loose/be cheap. I don't think you have those jobs without a commitment to winning.}}

8.) He needs to trade prospects for big bats. Everyone should be fair game for trades. Even Matusz, Arrietta or Markakis. The bar should be set high. Obviously, some of our players are worth more than others. However, if Arizona called and said they'd give us Dan Haren, Stephen Drew, and Ian Kennedy for Matusz, then I think we'd have to jump on that before they realize how much they'd be getting fleeced. I'm not saying we definitely trade these guys, and I don't think Meso is saying that either, based on his "set the bar high" comment. Is it a quick hook on Matusz? Yes, absolutely. But I would expect a MUCH better return than we got for Bedard.

{{In principle I agree on trading for a "big bat". However, trading from a position of weakness (unknown talent levels of O's prospects) will result in uneven trades. Andy has said that he does intend to get excess of talent for the purpose of trading...but the fruit ain't ripe. With reguards to Prince: he's a Boras client, and Boras always says "free agent market", so moving parts for a guy that's here for a 1.5 seasons is a bad investment of assets (prospects) unless you just want the extra draft picks in 2013...}}

9.) The scouting dept. needs to be gutted.. Maybe not necessarily completely gutted, but vastly overworked, especially in the international department.

{{I'm not sure the conclusion can be reached that since the talent isn't performing, the evaluators were wrong. Agreed on Expanding Scouting. Very Very Very much think the Scouting in ALL markets should be VASTLY expanded.}}

In the end, many of the arguments and positions from the fire-andy group come down to what's happening on the field right now at this moment. That can, is likely to, projected to change.

The "loosing culture" is a slippery slope though, I consed that.

Mostly I see it like this. I sense a great deal of panic in much of these discussions. It can be helped with a little less hyperbole and a some perspective. I think, at times, there is "tilting at windmills" thought processes: everything is suddenly "proof" of systematic failure.

It's a young team trying to learn to win. UGLY.

Further more, I think the Trembley firing only makes a bad thing worse.

Mes,

I guess that's just it. We agree on the "plan's" validity (and, as you stated...neither new, nor hard to disagree with on it's face)...

but disagree on results/execution. The talent was acquired and brought to the Majors by Andy. Now the talent has to perform. It's not. Thus, I'm not sure Andy takes the fall for that. Dave Trembely was a more likely target...he's supposed to get progress out. But I can tell you how to "X", it's still up to you to do "X".

I know your unhappy with the results. I'm not happy either. But any honest look at this team meant that this was "possible". Not intended, as some claim. This result's at this moment were FAR from certain.

The O's lost their Best Offensive Player in B-Rob. If B-Rob is here, Wiggy is at First, and things look a lot different.

Damn u B-Rob's Back!!!

Mes,

Nice on Lowen. But you know my point. Pretty rare to see top 5 talent traded a year into professional career. Besides, Lowen didn't have Tim Kurtchin call him ROY talent and I believe (and need to double check) that Lowen was considered a Bat to most all except, of course, the O's.

Good Morning Paulie,

I think I understand what's behind our current exchange. I agree with both sides of the argument and I see all things as pieces to a much larger puzzle. In other words, I agree with what you presented as well. I've very much in the middle of this argument, and I'll toe the line up to the point right before saying MacPhail should be fired. I think his leash should be shorter. The biggest issue in professional sports of any kind is that we live in a microwave society and if you were hired today as GM, we wanted to see results yesterday. I'm obviously exaggerating a little bit, but the entire sports world is "what have you done for me lately." Unfortunately, "lately" has been horrendous.

I, personally, am not ready to see Andy fired, but I would like to see some gutsier moves. He's done some good things while here, but he's also done some bad, and the bad that he's done is far more recent than the good. One last thing: I do not think yours and Meso's arguments are mutually exclusive, and as such, that is why I agree with both of you. I hope that helps, but let me know if I need to clarify further.

you know, I'm really glad to see Markakis finally take a proactive approach for the improvement of this team. He's more vocal and it's a good thing. I think, honestly, he's sincere about his intentions. Hopefully Angelos and MacPhail doesn't make him sour.

Meso,

I don't entirely disagree, but I think I do disagree with the basic premise: "What you call bitching, moaning, crying etc, actually works."

Evidence? The warehouse is responding to the worst team in baseball, perhaps the worst team ever.

But 12 years of whining has changed little. And as is often cited on here, thanks to MASN and other income, the amount generated by ticket sales is pretty small. They're just happy we're still talking about them.

My point is that I read these posts and responses frequently, occasionally adding more than two sentences of my input or queries. But the "war" between fans here is just sad in my book. Let other fans be fans. Believe what you want. But at some point, we have to stop simply screaming and at least talk productively about the future of the club.

What I see above in the last 20 or so posts actually approaches that, which is nice.

Peter, you missed a good game! please tell me why MLB teams believe it's best to hire retread, has been, or ex-player managers? is there an unwritten rule against hiring a college coach? Tony Gwynn coaches San Diego State, so not all coaches are unknown to MLB. Some of the same teams repeat at the College World Series year after year. Can't the Orioles be different and hire a new, fresh face?

Wow. Hard to believe it's been three years since MACFAIL took over.

Are we really better off? Have we really expanded international scouting? Or was that just a load of BS? Have we made our presence in Japan felt? Or again, was that just cream puff for the MASN types to eat up?

NOTHING has changed. And NOTHING will because Andrew knows how keep a good excel spreadsheet for OLE PETE and in return Ole Pete will support Andrew when he aims for the commish job.

WTG ANDREW!

Dan,

Yeah, I get what you're saying, but we've been saying we need a first and a third baseman with pop, for the last 2 years. That hasn't prevented MacPhail from acquiring Tejada and Atkins. We can come up with all the plans we want. That still doesn't change a thing. The bitching and moaning does. It reminds the owner that the fans frustration is beyond the realm of his imagination, and that it will affect his business. We can play GM all day, but that won't make the team better. Less money in his pocket because of fan descent will.

As everyone knows, I am Sham prefers keeping payroll low rather than bringing in high priced talent. If saving the owner money at the sake of acquiring elite talent isnt the sign of a true fan, I dont know what is, alas I digress

Nothing brought Shammy/Smitty more glee than posting the stats to Holliday's (typical) slow start. He declared the non-signing of Holliday by Dopey MacCheap a resounding success

As per usual, SHAMROCK WAS WRONG

this guy is NEVER RIGHT ABOUT ANYTHING. He should get lucky by accident once in a while, but he doesn't

I wish I was a betting man, Id get ShamalamaDingDong's picks and take the opposite and never have to work again

Holliday

R HR RBI SB AVG OBP SLG OPS
42 11 36 6 310 381 511 892

Markakis

28 3 23 2 300 390 426 816

NOPE COULDNT USE A GUY LIKE THAT

BESIDES, SHAMMY & THE APOLOGISTS TOLD ME REIMOLD WAS GONNA PUT UP BETTER NUMBERS FOR A LOWER PRICE (low price is always the most important factor to a macfailer)

Remember when ShammyPoo said that Matusz was going to have a better yr than David Price ? Yep, u guessed it SHAM WAS WRONG AGAIN

PRICE
W L IP K BB ERA WHIP
10 3 93.1 73 37 2.45 1.23

MATUSZ

2 8 87.1 68 30 4.95 1.45

Why is it not surprising that the guy who is WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING is one of the few MacFail suporters ?

U cant make this up

Meso,

You're wasting your time

Outhousers can only speak in empty slogans, trite cliches, spin and downright lies

Kind of like the man they admire so much

Remember these are ppl that said the crow would fix atkins swing (despite a 3 yr non coors ops of .650)

They made excuses about MGonz terrible closing rate (10 of 18)

They really thought Millwood was an "ace"

They thought Reimy would put up better numbers than Holliday

They said we didnt need to acquire any power hitters cuz Jones, Wieters and Reimold were all going to hit 25-30 hr's anyway

When I predicted the 1b/3b tandem would be even worse that last yr's debacle, they defended ANdy thru and thru

When I said bergeson's peripherals suggest he was a fluke, they were incredulous

hen I questioned why Andy acquired a bunch of washed up players to play out of position, they defended these idiotic moves in cult like fashion

When other posters questioned the concept of putting so much pressure on the young players, the macfailers acted like it was the craziest thing they ever heard

There's even more, but Its almost too ridiculous to type.

Thankfully, the archives confirms all of this

Some actaully claimed that this was an 85 win team!

U cant make this up

Jason-

A .560 5 HR 11 RBI week certainly helped Hollidays cause. Nice little Luke Scott-esque tear he's on!
The O's should trade for him and give him a raise to $27mil/yr. So that he lives up to that salary, they will need to get Pujols too. Can't project to a .300 24hr 75rbi season without Big Al with you.

Don't forget he came into that stretch .284 6 25. Way to sieze on a small sample size and project it to mean something. Now, if he finishes the season at this pace with .365 48hr 147rbi, I will admit defeat.

David Price is living up to his potential this season. Good for him.

Beans, beans good for your heart

The more you eat, the more you fart

The more you fart, the better you feel

Be sure to eat beans at every meal

So Markakis did his George Bailey impression to PA's potter one?

GOOD for Markakis! I bet potter had to slam down a few extra martinis after that meeting. I wonder if the nitwit son was there too?

I would go through and debate each of your points, but I like these much more though. They make you sound like a lunatic poster using dramtic impactful words on Huffington Post commenting that there is nothing wrong with Obama golfing because everthing is Bushes fault anyway.

'empty slogans, trite cliches, spin and downright lies'

We are talking baseball here, right? You know the free flow exchange of opinions, thoughts, etc?

'the man they admire so much'

You are right, I have his picture on my bed side table and a poster of him shirtless on my wall. I took down Robert Pattinson to make room for AM.

'Thankfully, the archives confirms all of this'

Your internet favorites must be overflowing with tabbed pages.

'defended these idiotic moves in cult like fashion'

cult? what? were just talking baseball psycho, not transporting our spirits to the Andromeda galaxy via kool aid consumption.

So what, do you like keep score of this? OH YEAH! Give you a sense of accomplishment? Maybe you can add it to your resume?

hahahaha... dork. What is wrong with you?

Hey All,

Let us congratulate the Orioles.
They actually looked like a competiive for once last night. They played hard.
Tejada finally got out of his home run slump (after 200+ abs)

Millwood wasn't great, but did enough to win.
Berken looked good
And Hernandez was throwing smoke.

Let's Enjoy the win, maybe they will make it two in a row tonight.

Also, just to comment on Holliday.
Even if we offered the millions he wanted. I doubt he would have come here. Mark Teixeiera didn't come and Ivan Rodriguez didn't come either a few yrs ago.

I am SHAM,

U were the one using small sample size ya dope. Taking a third of a season, but ignoring his career #'s

Damn youre dumb. Do u have some sort of head injury I should know about ?

The guy has a career ops of 930 which is way better than anyone on the Orioles and is a historically slow starter

Why are u so worried about payroll ?

Tell me again how Reimold was going to put up the same numbers as Holliday again, LOL

BTW, Dopey MacCheap couldve signed Holliday and the PAYROLL WOULD STILL BE LOWER THAN 07 when he got here

Do u ahve any conception of thge type of money that MASN makes the Orioles cuz u act like the Os are broke. They coulkd afford double the current payroll. Adjusted for inflation, their payroll from the late 90s was 135 mil and that was b4 the MASN cash cow

I didnt think that there was anybody left who hadnt figured that out yet

BTW gil,

Please stop saying 4 yrs.

AM signed on almost exactly 3 yrs ago. There is no need to exaggerate or embellish when it comes to Dopey MacCheap's ineptitude

Shamrock -

Holliday has to hit .368/48/147 for you to admit defeat?

No wonder you were so opposed to signing him.

Found this tidbit from smitty the snitchy,

"Spending on mediocre free agents is what got us into this (among other things)"

What do u think macfail is doing ?

LMAO

Atkins
Patterson
Steve Trachsel
Alex Cintron
Mark Hendrickson*
Cesar Izturis
Greg Zaun
Koji Uehara*
Chris Gomez
Guillermo Quiroz
Jolbert Cabrera
Adam Eaton
Ty Wigginton*
John Parrish
Mike Hinckley
Michel Hernandez
Garrett Atkins*
Mike Gonzalez*
Chad Moeller
Alfredo Simon
Andy Gonzalez
Will Ohman*

No mediocrity there

U cant make this up

As much as I can't stand his tactics, I've got to agree with jason on Holliday. But you all knew that already. If it makes you feel any better, I don't agree 100%. April is Holliday's "worst" month, historically, but I would hesitate to call him a "slow starter". For his career, he's a .303/.355/.490 hitter in April and a .312/.380/.532 hitter in May.

I do have to agree, to a certain extent, with the small sample size thing though.

Hitters like Holliday are as valuable as they are because they go on streaks like his current one (.320/.407/.640 since June 1... ouch! My keyboard caught on fire when I typed that!). The difference between Holliday and Luke Scott is that when Holliday isn't raking like he is now, he's hitting .280 with a high .400's slugging percentage. When Luke isn't raking, he's hitting .110 with a .120 slugging percentage.

I still stand by my claim that signing Matt Holliday would have worked wonders for this organization. The contract would have been worth it just because of the boost in fan morale and attendance and that it would have signaled to other players that the O's are serious about improving. The fact that Holliday is a right-handed cleanup hitter who plays a position that was inhabited by an injured 27-year-old prospect is almost beside the point.

Dan W,

Tired of that excuse.Its lame and downright misleading

When did I miss that players no longer play for the most money ?

Dan W lists
"Mark Teixeiera didn't come and Ivan Rodriguez didn't come either a few yrs ago."

Idk which time you're referring to Irod, but if it was when he signed with detroit, they gave him 4/40, we offered 3/27

Tex got 185 mil from NYY, we offered 140

Guess players dont want to sign here for millions and millions of dollars less tho

As for Holliday, his good buddy BRob said on 105.7 that Holiday's interest in the orioles was sincere. Are u saying that BRob is a liar ?

nb,

Not to mention that Holliday wouldve provided some much needed protection for Markakis

I guarantee Kakes #'s would be drastically improved with Holliday hitting behind him

Did i mention that payroll would still be lower than 07 too ?

Nb,

Also Holliday goes 1st to 3rd much better than Scott and plays better defense

He also steals an occasional base, even stole 28 2 yrs ago

In short, Holliday is a compleye player and Scott is a one dimensional DH who doesnt hustle out of the box

This team is crying for help, but the owner doesn't give a rat's behind. According to Zebriec:

"Frankly, I wish Peter spent more time around the team," MacPhail said. "I think it's a good idea.

Angelos doesn't give a rat's behind. Why hasn't he addressed the current situation? Don't you wonder why? Why hasn't he given interviews to "trusted" journalist "friends" like Peter Schmuck. You know Schmuck has a good relationship with him. Or why doesn't Schmuck approach Angelos for a one on one? Don't we deserve a few words from Mr. Angelos? Does he even care? What do these losses mean to him? What will he do to make this team succeed in the future? What kind of commitment will he make to faithful fans? Will he ever apologize for this miserable failure? Does he even watch the team play? When was the last time he was at Camden Yards?

Meso -

Schmuck and Angelos have a good relationship?

Angelos hasn't returned calls from Schmuck since like 2003.

Posted by: Maybe if we offered the most money, they would come here
********

no... believe it or not, some players wish to win now. Tex told the O's as much. Some players even take less to play for a winner. It is not as simple as clicking A on the xbox controller.

NB,

According to his good friend Bruce Cunningham (1057thefan), Schmuck and Angelos are good buddies.

RE: June 24, 2010 11:32 PM

Did some fool actually say that buying bats was a success? And that we 'tried' for Tex. We offered 40mm less than a great team. Don't be a fool.

BTW - last I checked, Gonzo and Bedard were NOT bats (though they are failures too). The idiocy on here is astounding.

Sham -

But I can guarantee they WONT sign if you low ball. 140mm from O's or 180mm from Yanks. Tough choice. Maybe we should have been the team offering 40mm more than the highest. No, no, that would have been too intelligent for this team.

Get back to cleaning the warehouse, SHAM!

Shamrock,

Dude please! This was the first time Tex became a free agent. He was looking for a payday. He didn't go to a winner. He went to the highest bidder. He is a money whore just like everybody else. Only veterans at the end of the career pull the kind of moves you're talking about. Tex is in his prime. He was looking to get paid. You're telling me that if the O's offered 10 million more than the Yankees he wouldn't have taken it? Get real!

Ladies and Gentlemen, the $17 million dollar mans projections!!!

160 190 48 25 82

.310 .381 .511 .892

Until this weeks little out burst, it was looking more like .284 15 63.

The O's definitely should have gone $20 mil a season since $20 > $17, he would have come here.

HEY BLANCIONE........have a great weekend with Colleen and Gay Craig!!

So are you saying you wouldn't want someone who hits .310 w/ 25 homers? If the answer is 'no' I think you prove the point of being a fool. If you answer 'yes' clearly you were wrong this winter when you didn't want him. Which one is it? Foolish or wrong?

I did some research on I Rod
He blew off the orioles to play for the Marlins in 2003. Looks like he made a good decision. They won the world series that year. And he blew them off a second time when he went instead to the Tigers. And while he didn't win the WS with the Tigers. He reached the series again. So I Rod looks like the smarty pants here.

But if I had been the O's inner circle, which I am not.
I would not have gone after him the 2nd time he was a free agent. If memory serves me correctly, he simply did not want to play here. It was not a matter of money.

Lastly, even if Holliday came here.
I don't think it would have mattered.
The Orioles need a true front line ace.
Cliff Lee would have been nice.
But that's not going to happen either.

None of us can corroborate anything without talking to Tex. But the reports from Olney and every other reporter I have read go with Shamrock's...

When the bidding was low and the Yanks weren't in, the O's made a competitive offer at around 140. (Others were between 125 and 140, if I recall). The Orioles were told that Tex was not going to consider playing for them.

Does that excuse a decade of not signing anyone? Of course not. And is there any harm to offering more and more and forcing a player to prove he won't take it? Of course not.

But that's what's been reported, so don't act as if someone is making it up. Vlad Guerrero did as much the same year we got Tejada (or earlier?). No one was offering anything, he 'courted' the Orioles into a huge contract bigger than anywhere else, forcing the Angels offer up. And later admitted as much.

Many of the recent acquisitions have been embarrassing. Even if some had merit as 'filler' moves, they mean nothing without legitimate moves.

My only defense of MacPhail (and defense is hardly the right term because I don't mean to say I'm on his side) is that the markets the last two seasons have been pretty lame. One or two names and little else.

Does that make it ok? Of course not. But the markets have hardly been overflowing with talent in recent years and it makes it that much harder to get 'the guy.'

I understand the points and agree that he is a solid major leaguer, but please stop with the Matt Holliday talk. That guy away from Coors Field is a career 288, 21 HR, 85 RBI, .350 OBP guy. He might produce better than that at Camden Yards, but why pay 17 million for Markakis type stats? AM’s non-pursuit of him is one of his only good moves. Holliday’s contract will be an albatross in 4 years. You could get the same exact stats from a Jose Guillen type for a lot less. Besides, can’t we see with the Coors stat baby Atkins how that place, humidor and all, makes average players good (Atkins, Jeffrey Hammonds), good players great (Helton, Holliday, Bichette) and great players legendary (Larry Walker, Galarraga)? Heck, if Markakis played 81 games a year at Coors Field he’d be a Hall of Famer.

Meso-

He told the O's not to bid anymore as he was not coming to play here. Something about not wanting to look like he was leveraging their offer. If he wanted to be here, I am sure he would have worked something out.

I think the Nats offered about the same as the Yanks, why didn't he go there? hmm....

What makes me sick about Tex was his interview with Eddie Murray. Talking about OPACY and Bmore, he said about how great it was and that doesn't know why anyone wouldn't want to play here. (Anybody but him of course...)

Dan -

Tex already declined 145mm when we came in with 140mm. It was a 'non' offer.

Dan-

Think I heard Schmuck say it one saturday on the radio.

Also-

"Does that excuse a decade of not signing anyone?"

dont forget tejada/sosa (paid his salary)/palmeiro/lopez/bradford/walker/baez

"So are you saying you wouldn't want someone who hits .310 w/ 25 homers? "

Not for $17mil a year.

But whatever, its only money. The trillions that MASN brings in they should be able to reincarnate Ty Cobb. right?

--------
Posted by: Did he really compare Holliday to Puke Scott ? LMFAO
*******

Glad you thought it was funny. I guess in your world where salary=success Holliday should be at abour 35 HRs and 75RBI already, seeing as how he makes about 3.5 times more than Scott, right?

nb-

No, I was being facetious about those numbers. But you would think a premier salary would come with premier numbers. I would be shocked to see 35-110-.310

Please,

Can u read?

U characterize Holliday as Markakis type stats when Holliday is crushing Markakis statistically. There is an up to the minute comparison in this very thread, lmao

Will your head explode if u told the truth ?

Last time I checked neither Oak or Stl was Coors fd and Holliday put up a 950 ops last season

Contracts arent an albatross, if u know something crazy happens like WINNING

Contracts arent an albatross when u have 1 of the lowest payrolls in MLB and are one of its most profitable

1 postseason appearence alone is worth 50 million to a MLB team

Why are ppl so concerned with saving Angelos money

Do u think u sound intelligent discussing salaries ?

U r just repeating something u read somewhere, but never bothered to think about in detail

Whats better 17 million of Holliday

or wasting 25 million on Atkins,Koji,Tejada and Kevin (back to my normal 5 era) Millwood ?

Besides, the orioles are doing so well that they dont need a career 930 ops guy (which was higher last yr away from coors too, lies from PLease notwhithstanding)

There are some dumb orioles fans out there. 1 goofball compares Holliday to SCott and another dope comapres him to Atkins

U cant make this up

No.

in my world results are success, dumbass

Career ops of 930 and despite the lies and misinformation from Please (bear the turdman ? Lucky horseshoe ? Ken ?)

He actually had a 1.023 ops in STL last yr and 960 for the season AWAY FROM COORS FIELD

Gotta love it when dopey apologists praise andy for NOT doing something

No wonder u guys are thrilled with macfail thus far

"Dan" said

"When the bidding was low and the Yanks weren't in, the O's made a competitive offer at around 140." (Others were between 125 and 140, if I recall"

============================
Really waht others were bidding 125 ? LOL

That's odd considering he turned down 145 million from Tex 2 yrs ago

Who came in 20 million less than what Tex offered when they were trying to extend him ?

This should be good

BTW, agreeeing with Shamrock about anything is usually a guarantee that youll be proven wrong

TEX:

Why'd he sign a One Year Extension with the Braves and not jump into the Free Agent market that year? Maybe because Giambi was still on the books?

Who, at his age, with his talent, and that Agent (Boras), signs a one year deal if the fix isn't already in.

HOLLIDAY:

wow!!! Sample size indeed!!!

June 16th: .284 6 HR.
Today: .310 11 HR.

AND this is since he's now batting SECOND. How much money for a #2 hitter? He's paid as a number 4, failed in that roll, got moved to 2.

AND when the contract is over he'll be 499 years old and still getting paid like a #4 hitter.

AND look at Colby Rasmus. Think the Cards can pay for Holliaday, Pujols, and Rasmus? nope.

But like the Cavs with Shaq, they had no choice. Holliday was needed to keep Albert and the fan base happy. Hopefully Albert stays.

Sure, this year he'd help the O's. And in 2 more years that contract would force Wieters into the Yankees hands.

Shamrock,

"He told the O's not to bid anymore as he was not coming to play here"
----
Please do provide evidence to support your claim. I have not read/heard anything like that from any credible sources or from the horses mouth.

" If he wanted to be here, I am sure he would have worked something out."

---

What, like a hometown discount? That kind of working things out? Please!

"I think the Nats offered about the same as the Yanks, why didn't he go there? hmm...."

--
The Yankees offered more, why would he go to a losing team for less, even if they were close? Doesn't make sense.

And for the record, he got paid from the Yankees exactly what his agent had said he wanted to get paid. Exactly what he wanted, not a dime more. The Yankees were the only team that offered that. That was no such thing as a bidding war. Every other team that offered a contract came lower than what he had publicly declared he wanted. I repeat. The Yankees were the only one that matched it. Why didn't the O's match it? Oh yes, they had the money to pay him, and you know that.

Why do you put quotes around my name? My name is Dan. It's all I've ever gone by on this posting site until this very moment.

I just checked google's news archive. The Orioles entered bidding slightly late... offering between 140 and 150. That was marginally higher than earlier offers from other teams. But it was quickly met by everyone else adding a year and moving over 160.

Go back and read the stories. The Yankees were lurking and were in fact not even considered in on the pursuit until the deal was announced.

Meanwhile, I'm not here to make things up, agree or disagree with anyone, or be called a "MacFailer." Grow up.

You can talk with me or you can act like a five year old. Act like you're five and you'll be ignored. It's your choice. I know what you'll choose. I just don't understand why you hide behind monikers and ridiculous trash talk.

My name is Dan.

By The Way,

If the Andy-disapprover's can reference NOT getting Free Agents as a slight on Andy, than why not the Trades that didn't happen either.

Andy didn't trade for Adrain Gonzalez.
Fail.
Andy didn't trade for Miguel Caberra.
Fail.
Andy didn't trade for Doc.
Fail.
Andy didn't trade for Manny.
Fail.
Andy didn't trade for

...you get the point.

Andy, nor ANY OF YOU, Force a player to sign with the O's.

You can overspend by 10's of millions of dollars...that's being a good GM. Overspending when the results from doing so would have a MARGINAL increase in WINS/LOSSES.

If Holliday were here would the O's be .500? Would Adam hit better with Matt around? Would Wieters?

Buying Holliday is like putting racing stripes on a 1995 Accord.

Everyone knows Schmuck and Angelos get it on. Hes probably there right now!

paulie, thank you for your answers even though I remain in disagreement with much of what you said.

The five players you mention as "surrounding players" are okay as individual pieces but only Roberts really qualifies as an essential player. Too bad he is injured. I would add Markakis to your rebuttal, too.

Tejada and Wiiginton. Let's start with them since they are part of A and B in your rebuttal. Tejada is old. At this stage of his career, Baltimore is likely his last stop unless a contender has a major injury. Even so, there will be other teams with other offerings so Tejada is still unlikely to fetch much in a best-case scenario.

He still does some things well and I compliment him for actually being better than I anticiapted. Still, he is at most a place-holder even with this team. He seems like a good clubhouse guy but he doesn't bring that much to the table to make him Exhibit A. Even his good qualities are lead by example qualities befitting a bit player.

Wigginton is a good pick-up with regards to adding depth -- perhaps MacPhail's only example of acquiring depth. Let's face it, though. He probably would be a twice-per-week player had Roberts not gone down.

Even though Wigginton has done well with his opportunity, he is not a guy teams build around. His defense is too suspect, and his offense doesn't bring a lengthy resume. His enduring value may be as a guy coming off of the bench once the Orioles have a more select group of everyday players.

In that sense, Wigginton may be of more value to the Orioles than whatever might be returned in a trade. In the meantime, he's not the player one builds around.

That leaves Millwood and Ohman. I am on record of liking the Millwood trade, but he is not an everyday player. Furthermore, the Orioles should have a more veteran presence in their entire starting rotation. Millwood should have been a good start in supplementing Guthrie, not the one and only.

Ohman is a bit player even as a pitcher. I have no complaints with him. He is just not a cornerstone type of player.

Although I do think the Orioles are in a position to go after free agents with so-called sex appeal, that isn't the basis of what I think they need. They desparately need a difference maker. They definitely need a leader to be the face of the franchise. Sex appeal comes with those qualities.

Furthermore, it is foolish to think the team needs to be in some mythical position in the standings or in their development before they go down this (or any) avenue. Maybe these players won't sign until that happens. The Orioles should force that hand to be played rather than make a half-hearted or no attempt.

My complaint is more conceptual. The team has no identity. Toronto, as an example, has an identity. I suspect they will still fall close to or below .500, but they have an identity. You can build from that.

In that sense, yes, the free agents are as bad as people like me think.

I will agree there are different ways to develop players. If Matusz were the only youngster, my concern would be in innings pitched only. Then if he goes through a spell of a dozen or so winless starts with poor performances as part of the output, he could spend some time in the bullpen or have a supporting cast on the pitching staff where his starts aren't so magnified.

My complaint with the Oriole approach to growing the arms is they are doing this one approach for everybody with no back-up plan for anybody. That is why MacPhail has made so many roster moves. Development has been replaced with shuttling.

Perhaps the most telling comment from your rebuttal was when you said, "We don't know which will and won't right now" in reference to the players panning out. This is true. But, it should be the responsibility of those in charge -- MacPhail and his staff -- to make that determination.

They won't always be right. No one is. But in order to be ahead of the curve, one needs to place their players in their best position possible to succeed.

I hate to bring up the Ravens in a comparison game for assorted reasons. However, this is one area where the two sports are comparable. Look how often players leave them after having some success only to be ho-hum with someone else. The exceptions are usually with players like Scott and Leonhard because of cap issues.

The Orioles make their determination on players at times when everyone else has made the same determination. Or, other teams see players in how they might fit in or develop while the Orioles are playing their components of the future now and diminishing their value along the way.

As an example, Wieters is the type of player almost all teams would love to get from the Orioles. His on-the-job training makes him someone no one will trade very much to get. I'm not saying the O's should trade him, but he is untradable because he wouldn't fetch that much in return.

So, the team has only one way to use him, and they must use him. The team has backed itself into a corner with Wieters ... and so many other players.

Not related to your rebuttal with me, you mentioned firing Trembley has made a bad situation worse. I totally agree.

I think very little of Trembley but the timing of his firing couldn't have been worse. The needing a spark explanation is a sad commentary of a team that seems in denial about itself. I can only hope the Markakis-Angelos meeting is conceptually productive.

"Why'd he sign a One Year Extension with the Braves and not jump into the Free Agent market that year? Maybe because Giambi was still on the books?"

----
Not so fast Paulie!

The Braves signed him because he was under contract, but available for arbitration. In order to avoid arbitration, they offered a one year deal. The Braves had never intended to pay him what he wanted to get paid. They had contract talks, but they didn't give him what he wanted. So they traded him, knowing they couldn't sign him.

TEX:

Remember too that the Red Sox took a private plane with ALL the management and Front Office too Texas to try and seal the Deal for the Red Sox with Mark.

before the Yankees even put a number on the table.

didn't happen.

Sox fans don't blame Theo for "failing" on that one.

So how can you blame Andy for that?

that is "Titling at Windmills".

TEX:

Remember too that the Red Sox took a private plane with ALL the management and Front Office too Texas to try and seal the Deal for the Red Sox with Mark.

before the Yankees even put a number on the table.

didn't happen.

Sox fans don't blame Theo for "failing" on that one.

So how can you blame Andy for that?

that is "Titling at Windmills".

The Redsox didn't need Tex that bad. They had a solid team that had been kicking the snot out of the Yankees for years. If they could get him for what they wanted to offer, great. Plus the Redsox are winners. How can their fans argue with anything that Theo does? They win every year. They won the World Series without Tex. Risk/reward didn't add up for them. They know they can win without him. We could not.

We needed Tex. He would have been the next big thing in this town since Cal Ripken. Hometown boy, tremendous athlete, great guy. What a story and boost for this franchise that would have been! How many useless free agents have we wasted money on, and didn't want to pay one the most legitimate superstars (with a proven record) of the decade?

please-

you mean an albatross like these guys?

CARLOS LEE 34 .228 10HR 39BI $19 MIL, 2 YEARS STILL TO GO...

TODD HELTON 36 .306 16HR 61BI PAST 6 YEARS $17.7MIL THIS SEASON

ALPHONSO SORIANO $19MIL- ALWAYS HURT.

BIG Z $19MIL 5++ ERA, HIGH 3'S PRIOR

A-ROID- 33 MIL TO PUT UP .280 30HR 100BI... 7 YEARS LEFT ON A $275 DEAL!!!HAHAHA!!!!

NOT TO MENTION BARRY ZITO... HES A BIGGER WASTE THAN THE STIMULUS BILL.

AND SO ON....

Mes,

He signed the arbitration extension as a two year deal before he moved to the Braves, when he was with the Rangers. Rangers offered him a 8yr 180 Million extension after the 2 year arbitration deal, and he turned them down. Thus they traded him to the Braves. Braves wanted a long term deal, but got a one year. Moved him to the Angels. Who offered a long term deal and were also rebuked.

Not true Paulie,

Check your facts. The Rangers offered him a 140 million deal which he turned down. And the Braves signed him for 1 year 12.5 million before they could even go to arbitration.

Just about everytime you leave, something happens that rocks the local sports area. This time Yow steps down for N.C. State. All I can say is THANK GAWD, and its about time. YIPPEEE.

Mes,

The Sox had just moved Manny. Yeah, they needed him or another Big Bat First Baseman. See Victor Martinez. They are still the favorites to land A-Gon.

But I agree on Tex and it's importance to Team for Wins and fanbase. I was one of the Most vocal proponents. At the time, I think Not Brooks and I were at odds over the issue and I spent much time arguing the whole "spend it ALL" approach to get him. I still say the O's should have just said $200 Mill and have been done with it. (kinda that "see it, hit it" philosophy)

See, Andy has broken my heart too...

not true paulie,

maybe I'm missing something, but I did "fact check it" before posting it. granted, it's wikipedia, so maybe that's it...judge for yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Teixeira

There are valid arguments pro and con concerning signing big money free agents such as Tex, Holliday, I-Rod, etc., but ultimately the Orioles have to buy some bats, and when they hem-and-haw, hesitate, and low-ball, they sign no one of value, which ends up making the team worse, which ends up making the team less attractive for future big-money free agents if or when the Orioles finally decide to Buy The Bats.

I don't disagree with the general principles of MacPhail's Plan, but his execution of it has faltered these past two off-seasons.

The O's are in the AL East, and we don't have anything resembling a big bat. Why didn't we go after Adam Dunn, who signed with the Nats in 2009 for a 2-year $20 million deal? He's only hit 55 HRs for them since then.

Likewise, we could've signed Pudge this year. Again, he's also with the Nats, the erstwhile MASN step-child (remember, before this season?) Pudge would've been a great complement for Wieters, and he and Dunn for that matter could've switched off on DH-ing for the O's.

The free-agent market may not have been great last year, blah, blah, blah, but there have been many players far better than Atkins, Mike Gonzalez, to waste money on and take up roster space.

I can only say that this coming off-season has to be it for Andy MacPhail. If he doesn't come through with MAJOR BATS (and I do mean plural), at least for a DH and 1B, then the O's are going nowhere, and his Plan is nothing but lip service.

I hear you Paulie,

I would bet that Andy wanted Tex here. What GM would not want a guy like Tex? But the greedy old bastard that writes the checks didn't want to fork it over.

DOH!

illiteracy spoiler: I can't read.

140Mill...not 180.

Waspman,

I disagree with your evaluation of Wieters. I think Wieters would still be seen as the 'centerpiece prospect' of a trade for a big name if we were to seek it. I just don't think it's worth seeking.

I have seen concern expressed by national writers about his trouble this season, but I have also seen that mediated by their belief that it is a learning curve and being part of a bad team.

But I think you are 100% wrong that Wieters wouldn't fetch as much as he would a year or even two years ago. Teams don't give up that quickly.

Paulie,

ESPN credible enough for you?

"Rangers owner Tom Hicks said the deal was made only after the star first baseman and his agent, Scott Boras, turned down an offer for an eight-year, $140 million contract extension."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2954457

Mes,

agreed on sentiment, disagree on conclusion. I think PA would have been happy to do so. It was Andy's call...and that was early in the rebuilding, a very "non traditional" approach by striping parts away Bedard, Tejada, to add a $200 mill guy. I believe Andy has said that he thought he could have done Tex differently.

any way, it was a bold move, obvious to those like you and I who don't have to write that check and take responsibility for a bad deal.

paulie,

"any way, it was a bold move, obvious to those like you and I who don't have to write that check and take responsibility for a bad deal."

So does not writing a big check absolve him of responsibility? Is no one "responsible" for this 20-52 team simply because no big money was risked being spent on a top-tier free agent?

Anyone can sign a bunch of AAAA players to your team and save a lot of money on payroll. The trouble is that team is not going to have much chance of winning.

Dan, waspman,

Matt Wieters would get Prince Fielder straight up.

Matt's controllable, and cheap. Right now the Brewers would get Picks for loosing Prince...or they get a Switch Hitting Power projected 24 year old catcher....

While Wieters "value" has risen this year, I don't think it's fallen either. 24 year old switch hitting power projected catcher are a rare rare thing.

(but I would trade him for Carlos Santana!!)

I'm going to disagree on that too, Paulie. I am sure that Fielder is available. I'm sure Wieters could be the centerpiece of a deal to get him. But not straight up. No way.

I do agree with your last assessment - Wieters value has changed very little this year. Other teams, I am sure, are far more confident in their ability to bring him along than ours.

Angelo's,

I'm not saying he is absolved of responsibility at all.

But I do acknowledge there is more than one way to skin a cat and other fish in the Sea.

Tex would not have made or broken this year. Pitching would still be an issue even without Tex, and there will be other "opportunities" for Tex "like" players.

Time is fast approaching to make those moves. If the team shows "life" by the end of the year, buy and move excess parts.

((btw, how great would it be if Tex were here and could teach/help another struggling young switch hitting power hitter. sigh))

"He told the O's not to bid anymore as he was not coming to play here"

I would LOVE it if somebody could find me a source when Teixeira said this. This really is news to me. Pete quoted this too, but I can't find it.

Please do provide evidence to support your claim. I have not read/heard anything like that from any credible sources or from the horses mouth.
____

Heard it from radio host... Bout 100% sure it was Schmuck

What, like a hometown discount? That kind of working things out? Please!
_____

No... maybe he could have at least negotiated?

He.didn't.want.to.play.here.Why.are.we.still.debating.this?

..............................................................................................
Pete's take: I don't know why we're still debating this. Maybe we should look at this from Wayne's perspective and then try go apply some logic to it. Wayne says "everybody is lying" about Teixeira, because the facts don't line up with the version he wants to believe. If the Orioles were going to lie about Teixeira, they would have lied and said they offered $180 million, and nobody would have been any the wiser. Scott Boras would not have denied it, because it would have served his purposes and kept the Orioles available to him for future players. If the O's were going to low-ball and really didn't want to sign him, they could have leaked all kinds of ensuing offers that fell just a little short instead of a lot. Sorry, Teixeira history revisers, but this one was what it was.

Dan,

Really?

You really don't think the Brewers would "straight up" Wieters and Prince.

For a team like the Brewers (small market...small cash) I don't think they could ask for anything more!! Young, already in majors, switch hitting/power projecting Catcher to team with Ryan Braun. If Wieters isn't Exactly what their looking for I dunno what is.

In fact, I'd ask for Prince and One for Wieters.

good day on the boards (mostly).

so thanks for making it stimulating, rather than loud. good looking out fellas'

off to the game now! Gotta beat the Nat's....right!!!!

go O's!

paulie,

I'm not saying signing Tex was make or break for the O's, but as the O's wait and wait and wait for the right time to buy the bats they keep getting worse and worse and worse.

Maybe things will at least be less laughingstock-worthy as this season "progresses", but if the O's could not attract top-level free-agents when they were a .400 team, how are they going to attract them when they are a .300 team?

Look at the current manager search. Who would want to deal with this mess as manager? If we had a few decent hitters ALREADY on the team then a prospective manager could maybe see that this team has a future with all of these younger players. But when the team is this bad, it appears to be a long-term project at best to turn it around.

I can only hope we can get a decent manager out of all this in the near term. Then MAYBE that will give hope to any free agent leery of coming here that this team does have a chance to contend in the next couple of years. But if MacPhail and co. drag their feet in picking a new manager, or opt for someone less proven, then I don't see how this team is going to lure any hitter of decent value to play here.

Really, really, Paulie.

If not this year, then next year... but the Brewers will find someone to pay much more for Fielder.

Let's start simply with the idea that the only reason the Brewers are going to trade Fielder is if they think they won't resign him - which doesn't come up until after next season anyone. So no pressure to trade him sooner. And then, we still have to wonder whether or not they will be unable to sign him - but I'll give you the benefit that everyone says he won't be staying put for a paycut.

So, assuming that next year you have the BrewCrew not competing and willing to trade Fielder in July to bolster their future, you have to consider who's buying. And I'm sure it will be more than just the Orioles.

Why, if you have the piece everyone wants, do you give it away one for one? Obviously to get SOMETHING in return. But still, not until you are positive will be no better offer out there.

I think Prince Fielder would bean excellent addition to the O's but I wouldn't trade Weiters for him. That trade just fills one hole but creates another.
The Brewers need pitching so they might accept a package like Arieta, Guthrie and Tillman. I'm not even sure that would be enough so maybe we'd have to throw in a guy like Hernandez.
Fielder is the type of guy that could hit 35-40 hrs for the next 10 years or he could eat himself out of the game in 2 years.
Sometimes you have to pull the trigger and take your chances.We desperately need a big bopper and Prince could be the man.
If it takes 3-4 pitchers to get him, so be it, just make sure that Matusz is not included because he is likely the best of the bunch. I'm sure the Brewers would start any talks with Matusz but on the other hand, those mentioned are decent enough that it might get this deal done.
Let's day that it does happen, then sometimes adding just one big name can start a turnaround. Other players may become interested and before you know it, we add another bat and a front-line starter.
One can always dream can't they???

Dear “wasting 25 million is better than 17 million on good players to apologists”:

BTW, what is your name or handle, so I can respond to you properly? I’m sure you would answer to A-hole for as often as you’re likely called by that name, but I’d like to be a little more diplomatic, at least on here.

If you’ve ever seen me post, you would know that I am no AM apologist. But who cares. My point is that Holliday for his career (it is a fact, so look it up) away from cozy confines of Coors Field is solid, but nowhere near great. He’s batted .357 and slugged over .640 for his career at Coors. See this:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=hollima01&year=Career&t=b

For a six year career prior to this season he has been a solid but unspectacular 20 HR/90 RBI a year guy away from Coors. A FACT, not a guess. You want to bet in this steroid free era he keeps even that production up to and through his mid-30’s? Pay someone like that $17 million, I’d rather wait and buy Adam Dunn and another vet for the same combined cost. I like the guy, he is a competitor and tough out, but no way is he in the class of the best players in baseball.

So if you could bother to actually LOOK at the guy’s career numbers over a long period of sampling (6 plus seasons), you would see Holliday for what he is. But that might prove too much effort for your meager mind, resulting in YOUR head exploding, and as it is clearly positioned up your own A$$, it would likely result in your evisceration.

Shamrock,

We are still debating Tex because of guys like you Pete and others who say he didn't want to come here. You all use the feel good BS he was quoted after he signed for the Yankees. Things like he was a Yankee fan, blah blah blah.

When he was traded to Atlanta he also said when he was in high school he wanted to be like Chipper Jones, because Chipper was a switch hitter. Should I be thinking he wanted to play in Atlanta because of that comment. Of course he is going to say he wanted to play in NY for a winner. What else would he say - I wanted to play in Baltimore but they wouldn't pay me? C'mon man.

Did the O's offer what he wanted and he refused it? No. So how can you say he didn't want to come here? You can't. If he got more money here that the Yankees offered, you bet your behind he'd be here. Simple economics. Let's not act naive here!

Don't try to justify to me that big time free agents don't want to come here. The reality is, Angelos doesn't want to pay them. And please, don't tell me he wants to pay them. That's ridiculous. Who's going to turn down the highest bidder? Let's get real now! Be the highest bidder for a change. Business transactions can be win-win, but Angelos wants to make them win-lose, because he ego serves him as a phallic extension.

off to the game now! Gotta beat the Nat's....right!!!!

really? this early?

going to be ripsh!t by the 2nd inning

****
I would LOVE it if somebody could find me a source when Teixeira said this. This really is news to me. Pete quoted this too, but I can't find it.
---
Pete is the reporter, he gets info from team sources. Again, I think it was he who said it. Not like there is a link to espn.com to support it.

Lies....

Whether or not Tex would have come here is debatable. What's not debatable however, are the lies being thrown around that Tex and his peeps put out the word that the O's need not continue bidding because he wouldn't come here.

That's 110% (EXPLETIVE DELETED)t. It came from mysterious 'sources' that the Bruce Cunninghams of the world came up with.

It's a bold face lie....and those who have spread it have since realized they were fooled.

Even if the O's offered 10m more than the Yanks, I don't believe he would have come here. If he were your son, would you have advised him to come to Baltimore, or go play for the New York Yankee's?

But that's not the issue, because we'll never know.

What is the issue, is that the media knows they were lied to, and they still won't touch the story. Who's going to go there? A Sun employee? Masn?

By the way SHAM, it's still talked about in these parts because the entire Tex scenario was embarrassing. Of course Tex said he wore a Yankee hat at O's games at his news conference.

Where was this news conference though people? In New York perhaps? On the day of his announcement?

What would you have said?

And Sham, don't you realize that every team makes mistakes with high cost free agents? It's called professional sports.

Does that mean you NEVER go after them though? Are you kidding me?

So you're going to bring up every bust in mlb over the last number of years?

When you get to the core of what Jason says, he's been correct. Any reasonable person sees that. People may not like his style, but guess what? It's a blog. Different styles actually makes things more interesting.

Even your style is interesting.

But come on Sham, you should be humble at some point. Like some others, you've been so wrong that it's surprising you even keep up the fight at times.

You actually are spinning Hollidays value to a club? The guy is a legitimate professional baseball player. He puts up his numbers, and would be huge protection for guys like Nick.

You don't think that's the kind of guy Nick was talking to PA about?

So what if he had a good stretch. That's baseball. The point is, he has a plan when he goes to the plate. Is he Longoria? No. He's he the type of pro this team is DESPERATE for?

Of course he is.

But guys like him cost money Sham.... Allot of money.

Not understanding such will ALWAYS = losing. That's why there's no end in sight for the god ole home team.

...............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Wayne, you're usually pretty good at making your case, but you're 100 percent wrong here and I'd prefer you don't use outright profanity while you're spinning one of your fantastic conspiracy theories. Believe it or not, I actually do this kind of thing for a living and I don't make up sources. I actually talk to them instead of spinning tales on my laptop and claiming I have some kind of mysterious foreknowledge of all that happens with the Orioles. Scott Boras told the Orioles that Teixeira was not interested in playing in Baltimore and did not want to be seen as using the Orioles to run up the price on the Yankees. Yes, I've talked to directly to the principles involved on both sides. I guess they're all lying because they disagree with your imaginary scenario. Let's try to keep it real. There's plenty here for you to feed on without making stuff up. I don't expect you to respect me, but when you start treating the real reporters like they're a bunch of foofs and start thinking you're really the only one with a clue, frankly, that's a little delusional.

Just a few comments

I didn't realize there were so many Dan's on this blog.

Second I would not trade Matt Wieters.
That's insane.
I would bunt him with two outs, two strikes and the bases jacked. Before I would do that.
Why would you trade him? That's like that one commercial where a bidder buys a piece of art at an auction. Then immediately wants to sell it. right away.

If I did trade him. I would want Ike Davis from the Mets in return, not Prince Fielder.

Lastly, I don't care if they missed out on
I Rod, Mark T, Matt H. I want some of their draft choices to start producing.
It would be nice if that someone was from their pitching staff.

One more thing from the list of players from earlier.
I thought Alex Citron was a jockey =P

And I like Alfredo Simon he might have some trade value. If he doesn't then I would keep him as my closer.
It's a shame he took so long to develop.
But he has good stuff.

Shamrock,

I did read a piece on ESPN a while back about a Teixeira interview for why he signed with the Yankees. Of course he didn't say he did it for the money, but he said something to the effect that:

-- paraphrasing

His agent asked the teams he was negotiating with to not leak any information out to the press, and respect his wishes. Out of 4-5 teams, the Yankees were the only team that respected his wishes.

He said he was turned off by those teams who weren't close with their offers and were leaking negotiations details to the press. If you recall the O's were beating the "hometown" discount drum at the time. If I'm not mistaken this came directly from MacPhail. Also if you recall, the O's pretty much leaked the 7 years 147 million offer they made. The Nationals and the Redsox also leaked their offers. Nobody knew what the Yankees offered until the offer was accepted. Based on what transpired, I do believe Tex.

The O's never wanted to give him what he asked for. But they wanted to put the ball on his court and save face with their fans. He had turned down 7 years - 140 million from Texas 3 years before. Why would he accept it now, when his stock had soared?

'The reality is, Angelos doesn't want to pay them. And please, don't tell me he wants to pay them. That's ridiculous.'
____

Now who is using undocumented speculation? Is it really reality then?

****

'Contracts arent an albatross, if u know something crazy happens like WINNING'

Tell that to the Astros, Cubs, Giants, Rockies, et al who are stuck with bloated contracts.... and again, big payroll doesn't neccesarily equal big wins.

Sham,

Based on free agents signing since Angelos took over the club. The only big time free agent was Albert Belle. That is documented, PERIOD. There have not been any significant big money, big bat, big superstar signing since then. That's a fact. Take it to the bank. Don't tell me Miguel Tejada was a big time free agent.

And Sham, don't you realize that every team makes mistakes with high cost free agents? It's called professional sports.

****

Everybody is allowed to make mistakes! Thats why pencils have erasers! Except for Andy MacPhail. No mistakes for him.

For some teams, those mistakes screw you for years.

But guys like him cost money Sham.... Allot of money.
_____

You are right, but shuold he? Do you pay $17 for your steak at Applebees that is listed for $9.99? No. Then why should the O's?

So you're going to bring up every bust in mlb over the last number of years?
****

No, just ones in the top 25 salary wise. You nuts are the ones that bring up the small potato ones such as Koji/atkins/etc. Those aren't busts.

****

Im wrong so much? Wayne, I have put you to shame plenty of times on here to the point where you were calling me 'mean'. You have no solutions other than to b!tch.

Don't tell me Miguel Tejada was a big time free agent.
---

No. Not big at all. Just got one of the biggest contracts that offseason.

Palmeiro was a small signing too, I suppose compared to todays contracts.

Sham,

Have you ever heard of you get what you pay for, or you get what you put into it? Sure there are a ton of examples of busts who have gotten a ton of money and produced nothing. But as Wayne says - does that mean you need to operate like an insurance agency, based on risk?

You don't win the WS if you don't take risks. You can't stop trying because there is a chance you might lose money by making wrong decisions.

"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty-six times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed it" - Michael Jordan

The point is, you don't succeed if you don't take risks. Angelos and Andy MacPhail still say that we can't compete with the Yankees and the Redsox. Why not? Sounds ironic coming from a billionaire. The Yankees have money to spend, but they would have never given Tex 250 million dollars. They won't outbid people just to outbid them. Whey haven't they exactly gone after free agent or orchestrated trades to bring LEGITIMATE baseball talent in this town? What are they waiting for? They have the money right?

You're correct SHAM....

All I do is bitch.

I bitched that AM wasn't protecting the young developing players in the line-up. Funny, that's been a theme of the national press lately, and even came out of Nicks meeting with the owner. How weird is that?

I bitched about the signings of Atkins, Gonzo and Millwood. I didn't bitch as much about Miggy, but I should have.

I bitched about the team relying WAY too much on Bergy and Reimy going into the season. Especially with both coming off of injury's.

I bitched that Reimy could never return from his kind of injury so soon.

I bitched that neither Koji or Pie were reliable enough to stay on the field. I also suggested that Jones would go down (it's still early).

I bitched about relying too heavily on a young rotation, and called out those who said Matusz would win 15 games.

I bitched that the club was 26th in payroll and how the Plan has no chance of success...

Yes.... I bitched and bitched and bitched and bitched.

I also said that MOST on this Blog could have done as good a job as AM has. Anyone here who has any business or common sense could have signed better players than AM has since he's been here.

YOU would do better too SHAM..... Much Better.

You know why? Because as much as I disagree with you, I believe you have pride.

I think you're even embarrassed at what you're seeing. It's just that you're either too stubborn to admit it, or you just can't (for whatever reason).

So yes SHAM.....

I pay for my season tickets - guilty.

I didn't ask a question at Fanfest (guilty - with an *).

As for the bitching though.....

You bet...

Challenge to warehousers:

We constantly hear we can't compete with the Yankees and the Redsox. I ask why? Because I look at the following numbers and I don't understand why we can't compete with them.

As of 2009 the baseball owners' wealth is listed as follows ( in no particular order):

1. Red Sox owner John Henry is worth 1.1 billion
2. Steinbrener owner of the Yankees is worth 1.3 billion dollars
3. Peter Angelos is worth 1.2 billion dollars.
4. Los Angeles Angelos Arturo Moreno is worth 1.1

Peter Angelos made the 400 richest people in the US in 2009. Something that the majority of the MLB owners cannot claim.

So Dear Warehousers: please do explain to me why the O's have the 26th lowest payroll in baseball. Tell me why we couldn't compete for Teixera. Tell me why we cannot get into bidding wars with the Yankees and the Redsox? I'm all ears/eyes. Tell me why we didn't try to make a trade for Roy Halladay or Cliff Lee, or Adrian Gonzales, or Prince Fielder, and on and on and on. Why don't we have a 150+ million payroll? How do the Redsox, Angels and Yankees do it? They're worth as much as Angelos is. Why? Looking forward to your spinning. Actually, I can feel it coming, and I'm getting light headed.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/22/baseball-billionaires-baseball-values-09-business-billionaires-wealth.html

meso-

Easy. I don't even need a Forbes link to substantiate.

They don't run the team out of their pockets, they bought the team out of their pockets. Its a business, not a charity. They maybe able to leverage financing based on that wealth, but they aren't writing checks from their personal accounts to pay for ball players.

They didn't get rich being stupid.

You get an A for research, D for content and analysis.

wayne-

My point exactly.

B!tching is easy, solutions are hard. Keep blowing hot air, its productive.

Meso -

In response to Tex post - I cannot dispute anything about what Tex wanted or didn't. I don't really know that. I can say that I don't remember too much about the Orioles as an organization publicizing their offers or their plan. Obviously the O's original offer was leaked, but the O's at least were one team we heard little of. The Yanks, obviously, we heard the least of.

I'm not defending them - I just think characterizing the process as the O's "beating the hometown discount drum." I heard lots of the media beating that, but not the O's. Maybe I'm recalling it incorrectly, though.

Meanwhile, I agree with you 100% about the spending of money. I think I pointed out in an earlier post on this thread that thanks to MASN, as is highly publicized, the O's have little reason to spend. Going from 1.5 to 3.0 millions a year is worth something in the range of 20-30 million extra revenue (not counting added costs)? But it will cost at least that 20-30 million to make this team good. At least.

So, I have no defense to anyone that says "we simply cannot compete" with them. That is bogus. And the failure to spend is awful.

But that doesn't mean, even with the awful losing this year, that the moves to create a younger, brighter future are ENTIRELY derailed. We need some serious help from outside. But the foundations are slowly being put in place.

The failure to build around that foundation is just that - a failure and an indefensible one at that.

Sham,

Their wealth is based on their assets and profits. So the O's and MASN are directly linked to his baseball business profits. Those two contribute to his billionaire status. By the same token, the Yankees and Redsox are very profitable businesses along with their YES and whatever TV station the Redsox have. The Yankees and the Redsox re-invest the money they make. Angelos pockets it. That's the difference.

And what's wrong with redistributing his money from one of his business to another to increase profitability? His business assets and money are not mutually exclusive. When he needs money for new ventures, he draws money from his bank account doesn't he? Why can't he do the same to make the O's more profitable and successful? D for you in economics.

Again, you bring nothing to the table in the form of an educated answers. You just bring baseless conjectures, as if you know something about how successful business are run.

"They didn't get rich getting stupid" !!!! Is that all you got?

meso-

given the massive dump this team has taken this year, which FAs were available this past offseason that would have made a difference, AND not have caused mega uproar when they in turn took a dump?

Could you imagine if they signed one of the two big bats (Holliday/Bay) and got what they have so far? Blood would run through the streets.

Would Beltre, HgH have signed here for 1 yr/$10mil? No, the O's would be stuck with his underachieving a$$ for 3-4 yrs as a premium to come to a crappy team.

The Rangers struck gold with Vlad coming back to life. He looked every bit of his 43 years last year.

I thought they should have added another RP or two from the pool of availability (wayne- that is a constructive suggestion). Never thought Gonzo was the answer at closer, thought he would have at least been serviceable.

feel free to pick and choose

http://espn.go.com/mlb/freeagents/_/type/ranked

Meso Milton Friedman-

Profits are not net worth. They are income. Big difference.

He was rich before the O's,

If they had signed Halladay they would have had 10 wins by now. Are these teams who acquired these big time free agents hurting?

You seem to suggest that the biggest superstars in baseball could not help this team. They're superstars for something aren't they? What's your alternative Sham? Divine intervention? You tell me what your solution is, because we are not drafting any Strasburgs any time soon.

For the record, I am not "in favor" of trading Wieters. However, I almost never subscribe to the Player-X-Is-Untouchable theory. The player has to be extra special (Ripken with the Orioles, Jeter with the Yankees, etc.).

My point was more Wieters wouldn't fetch enough now to make the thought of trading him enticing whereas that might have been the case earlier. I certainly wasn't saying he is Julio Lugo II.

As far as specific players being mock-traded for Wieters, a lot of other things come into play -- some of which I don't know and won't look up because it is too hypothetical to be worthy of my research.

For example, Wieters is under control (if not under contract) for a pretty long time because of his age, tenure, options remaining and whatever else could come into play. Established players (Fielder, whoever) are seldom under control/contract for as long of a period of time. That has to be factored in as well when discussing a trade -- even a pretend one.

It is okay to still disagree with me on my assertion. We're just dealing with opinions on this one. I just want to be clear I am in no way displeased with Wieters.

My more global assertion is the Orioles mishandle many of their own players. This leads to poor development. This leads to failures that decrease that player's value so even if you have made a determination that a player could be expendable, other teams have evidence of flaws and will more openly bargain down any potential trades that may have otherwise been there.

My opinion only ...

U cant make it up

You're right you can't. What are Holliday's career averages? You think six years are a lie? What did he do while in the AL last year? Hmmm .286 and 11 homers over 93 games...very impressive. And this year he is on pace for 25 homers and a whopping 85 RBI. Like I said, Markakis numbers. He has only done this recent damage with Puljos hitting behind him. I thought he was brought in to protect Albert, not the other way around. Gee, if only I had made that up.

Why don't you move to St. Louis and take your man crush for Holliday with you. I'd rather trade or pay for a real power bat like Fielder or Adrian Gonzales who will be worth their 17 mil, you dope. We need a cornerstone hitter that puts fear into pitchers, not a 21 homer .290 guy, we've already got one named Markakis. But don't let reason get you all worked up again, I'm sure the men in the white coats will be along soon to bring you your medicine and a small paper cup. In the meantime remove all sharp objects from near your person, as your mental instability might cause you to harm yourself.

...on second thought, go ahead and do just that.

Please,

Have any idea what Markakis is on pace to produce? You quoting last years stats are you? Want me to look this years numbers for you?

Will you say it's because he has no protection? Really? Care to look at some of the better hitters on other bad teams who have solid numbers?

You want to look up what Markakis is on pace to do, or should I? You can simply make up excuses for him. That's ok, you're allowed. Excuses are all apologist have anyway.

Want those numbers?

RE: Wieters.

for the record, even though I brought up the hypothetical of Wieters for Fielder straight up, I wouldn't do it.

Mes,

Warehousers aren't saying there is no money and not able to compete with Boston and New York. There is. Loads of it. That's not in debate.

It's how/who/when to spend those riches.

If they had signed Halladay they would have had 10 wins by now. Are these teams who acquired these big time free agents hurting?
----

Yes. You may be right. However, the O's still aren't scoring runs, he may only be 6-5 with them, and Halladay WAS TRADED FOR NOT SIGNED!!!!!!

What's your alternative Sham?
----

Build from within. Its not sexy or exciting, but with the week crop of FA's the last few years and teams retaining top talent, it is the only way to go. I like the previous comments about the size of the O's scouting dept. Much more of an investment needs to happen there. They need to get a big scary 16 year old Dominican Powerhouse at some point too.

Unless they are overwhelmed at the deadline, they should keep their vets and hope for sandwich picks when they leave.

They should have added another reliever or two in the offseason and made a bigger deal about competing for one of the big bats (although they still weren't coming here).

You just bring baseless conjectures, as if you know something about how successful business are run.
----

Conjecture? Well if that isn't Obama calling out Heyward for yachting... wait... I already used that. All the PA is cheap, PA doesn't want to win, AM is here to save PA money, etc etc etc... thats not conjecture? None of this is conjecture, its opinion. Based on behavior X, I believe Y is occuring.

****
His business assets and money are not mutually exclusive. When he needs money for new ventures, he draws money from his bank account doesn't he? D for you in economics.

-----
Economics relate to the movement of resources within a market and the forces that dictate that movement. What you are referring to in your big pile of 'conjecture' is PA's 'management' practices, not economic factors.

Yes, his personal and business assets are mutually exclusive, as one is PERSONAL and the others are BUSINESS. They can be used to support each other, sure, but should not be expected to do so. Commingling funds can get people in trouble.

No, I highly doubt he just strokes a check from his bank account to do anything. Like a wise business man, probably uses some form of leverage, based on his massive net worth, to fund ventures.

And its not like the guy is sitting on $1.4 in his passbook savings either. A big chunk of that NW is probably the O's, his law firm, businesses and other real assets.

Your disdain for PA clouds your rational judgement. Don't cross me when it comes to business.

Is there a bigger dope than Please ?

Seriously, he puts his foot in his mouth, is utterly clueless and is a douchebag to boot

Holliday has a career ops of 930, u dumb friggin idiot

Holliday has played more games in Stl than Oak

Holliday has played more games in COl than Oakland

Hollidays numbers are better everywhere than Oakland (which happens to be one of the worst hitting parks in the league)

Dopey Angelos lovin Please cherry picks numbers FROM THE SMALLEST SAMPLE SIZE POSSIBLE and then uses those for his moronic "projections". (projections that would still lead this sorry excuse for a team btw)

Ok, that makes a lot of sense

Please would take Fielder or AGon but doenst like Holliday. Hmm

Career OPS

Holliday 930 (Stl ops of 960)
Fielder 923
AGon 877

Oops looks like Holliday has the best career ops of the 3.

please is talking nonsense again. he was wrong all the time when he posted as bear the turdman too

I would much rather have Holliday help the orioles win games than save ANgelos money.

Heres a crazy idea "please (U could sign Holliday AND Agon or Fielder !

Who knew ?

U can sign an elite player more frequently than once a decade

Of course that assumes youre a fan of the team acquiring elite talent as opposed to a fan of saving angelos money

I am sham said

"Tell that to the Astros, Cubs, Giants, Rockies, et al who are stuck with bloated contracts.... and again, big payroll doesn't neccesarily equal big wins."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ummm, the only team on here who will be looking to shed contracts is Houston

The other teams are viable contenders, lol

Thx for playing

Why are u so obsessed with saving Angelos money ?

They've only been spendning about 50-60% of what they could really afford anyway

Ol Andy MacCheap saved the Creep about 100 million on payroll the past 3 yrs

Didn't say they are trying to shed salary.

Stop putting words in your own head. Learn how to read. You anger clouds your ability to have rational thought.

Again, saying big contracts don't equal wins, especially big contracts to guys that don't deserve them. The O's could have signed Bay, Holliday, Figgins and Lackey and STILL SUCKED THIS YEAR! Would have only added $60 mil or so to the payroll this season.

Wow. Didn't know that OPS was the only stat that counted in baseball? That OPS has really been working well for Billy Beane hasn't it?

Since 2008...

Holliday 60 HR 233 RBI .315 .397

Fielder 94 HR 273 RBI .282 .392

Gonzo 92 HR 266 RBI .284 .388

And to think... Gonzo does that in an awful line up that is averaging about .246 over that span. Added 2 AS games and 2 GGs.

Holliday in that time got to hit in Coors and with Pujols.

Fielder was top 5 in MVP voting last year.

Holliday is all yours.

Dear Mr. OPS:

This will be the last time I address you and your unrequited love for Holliday.

The only small sample size I refer to on here is your brain, which would explain for your repetitive nearing obsessive compulsion with Holliday and his stats.

Six years is not a small sample of playing time, but to someone like you six years and six months may seem equivalent due to your limited cognitive abilities. He closed the season strong in St. Louis last year. BFD, the rest of his career away from Coors has been what has been stated, and there is no reason to believe he would produce more.

It's time for you to switch off this blog and hit the other tab on your browser, the one with a full size picture of Holliday and resume your self-pleasuring. Maybe one day he'll return your calls and you will then be happy.