Hoping for the best for B-Rob.

Anyone have a link to the new Adam Jones Orioles commercial? I found the infamous Bergesen one, but I'd like to see the AJ one (and the Wieters one too)...

I am really pulling for Roberts to beat this and play pain free in 2010. As I indicated on another thread I met him while doing volunteer work at a childrens hospital in 2008. He gives of his free time and is very sincere when he visits the kids, and he does it below the radar, just because he wants to.

Sorry for dragging old posts forward but I was in class all weekend so just catching up

Burt from Essex said
Horseshoe-In case you haven't noticed,this is rebuild number 4 in the last 13 years.And the results are?And you blame the people who pay for all of this,the fans,for being a little bit petulant?Just a wee bit impatient?We were told 3 years ago that this would be the year.Go look it up.So if not this year when?2013?2015?This could go on forever.Keep speaking out Wayne and Gil,I'm with you.

No Burt, there has not been a rebuild in the last 13 years until now. There has been attempts to cover up roting wood, crumbling concrete and peeling paint but there has never been a complete teardown and rebuild until Andy got here. That is the whole problem. You and Wayne and Gil want more of what got us nowhere for over a decade. Dont admit how bad things are, dont do the heavy lifting, just throw a new free agent at the problem and ignore all the rot around him. This is the FIRST rebuild since Angelos has owned the team and is long overdue. EVERY year the owner or GM says silly things about how close they are or how they just need some tweaking. If you buy into that PR fluff, shame on you and if you don't, why do you bring it up now ? I have heard Angelos twice say he would do whatever it takes . . . do I expect him to sell his home and cars and the law firm and outspend the Yankees by 5 to 1? Of course not. I recognize that when he says do ANYTHING, he doesn't mean it. I am no genius so why do I realize this but you think every time the team SAYS it is rebuilding, they mean it?

Next, you don't pay for the team. You don't pay the teams salaries. Your signature is on none of their paychecks, rent checks etc.. You are a consumer. You buy a product. If you are buying a product you don't like, are buying entertainment that doesn't entertain you, you are pretty weird. It is like hating vanilla ice cream, going into Baskin Robbins and never ordering any of the other flavors "because you ALWAYS order vanilla". Buying a ticket doesn't make you the owner.

If the fans dont sign the paycheck then who does ?

If fans dont buy tickets, merchandise, concession, parking, etc then there is no money to pay the players

What kind of person tells another fan "its not your money" what kind of bizarre repsonse is that ?

Wayne's warehouse theory seems more plausible every day

No true fan favors frugality and losing over good players and winning

If the fans dont sign the paycheck then who does ?

If fans dont buy tickets, merchandise, concession, parking, etc then there is no money to pay the players

What kind of person tells another fan "its not your money" what kind of bizarre repsonse is that ?

Wayne's warehouse theory seems more plausible every day

No true fan favors frugality and losing over good players and winning

Wayne said
Thanks Burt,

But when it comes to posters like Lucky and Ferg...... they're entitled to their opinions. Problem is, they never have anything to back up anything they say..... And I mean never!

What they do have on their side Burt, is one day - maybe it'll be 2016, 2020, 2023... or perhaps 2028 or 2030, they'll be right.

One day, even if it's 20 years from now, they'll be able to say 'so where are all the negative posters now'?

And when that day comes Burt...... I'll be jumping on that big ole bandwagon, singing 'orioles magic feel it happen'....
~~~~~~~~~~~

I have backed up everything I ever say on here as fact. you are just mad I showed again you were wrong. The difference is that you make statements of cosmic certitude without ever acknowledging when you are wrong or differentiating between what is fact and what is opinion. MY posts are full of IMO, I think, It seems to me. That is because I try to be clear when I am stating my opinion and when I am stating facts. YOU pass off your opinions as incontrovertible fact all the time. When I give my opinion, I state why I hold that opinion. I back up everything I say. I explain why I believe what I believe. You just bully and bludgeon people over the head with your opinions passed on as facts.

Your idea of backing up your comments is the past twelve years. They lost for twelve years so they will lose this year. Past prospects were failures so current prospects will be failures. You never admit incremental progress, just whine that they cant go 162-0 while in the middle of their rebuild. You call them a failure because they cant run a marathon long before they have learned to crawl. You whine that they are so bad that no decent player would sign here . . . but whine more when they don't sign whatever flavor of the month you decide is the savior. And I don't need to back this up . . . you do that for me each time you post.

.

Dear R u serious?

R u serious? By your logic we as consumers should have the right to make policy and personel decisions for every company we patronize. Horseshoe is correct. We as fans have the ultimate authority by having the choice not to attend. Otherwise become a fan of the mega market teams who do not have to re-build, just re-load.

Lucky,

I express my viewpoint and you express yours. I see no difference in my repetitivness of point than yours. Of course my thoughts aren't going to change Macphail's approach, nothing will until he gets fired for piling up 90+ loss seasons as far as the eye can see. The blog is a way for me to express my frustration with Macphail's approach which I think is as outdated as the entire Macpahil clan. The days of rebuilding soley through the farm system are over, unless you want to wait ten years to see if it works, and I don't think there is any Oriole fan who expects to wait that long, other than maybe you and Andy Macpahil.

By the way, I like you and I find your posts compelling and your points cogent. I just don't agree with you. You may be right and I may be wrong, but I don't want to wait another ten years to find out. I will probably be dead by then.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SO you just want them to sign the biggest free agent name each season and repeat the mistakes of the past? ok so we could have a team like this:

Carl Pavano, Carlos SIlva, Denny Neagle, Miguel Batista, Richie Sexson, Gary Matthews, Vernon Wells, Barry Zito, Andruw Jones, Chan Ho Park, Jason Schmidt, Mike Hampton, Darren Dreifort . . . I Think all of those contracts wew signed during our decade plus long skid. If you actually have forgotten any of these contracts let me know and I will refresh your memory. Let me just cut and paste the following stats on the Jason Schmidt contract with LA:

• $15.7 million per win

• $4.7 million per start

• $1.57 million per strikeout

• $1.08 million per inning

• $60,179.26 per pitch

When you miss on a number one draft pick, it doesn't ruin you for multiple seasons going forward. A bad free agent signing can do just that, unless you have budgets like the Yankees, Sawx or Angels.

The world will not end with a bad free agent signing.

The warehouse loves to overhype the calamity that awaits a bad free agent signing, but this team is flush with cash. Its just an excuse not to spend

They probably made a 450 million dollar profit during the 12 yr losing streak . 450 million, so spare us the sky wouild fall with a bad free agent excuses

For every bad free agent signing, there are 1000 propsects that never make it to the big leagues, should we stop accumulating prospects too?

If the fans dont sign the paycheck then who does ?
~~~~~~~
Is this a trick question?? To take it literally, a machine probably signs the paychecks, I have no idea if it signs Peter Angelos, the name of the team's treasurer or CFO or what name, but Peter Angelos is responsible for the payroll. not any fan. If Wayne or Gil or you paid the players, they would be empowered to run the team however they wanted instead of posting here about how they would like to see it run.

A little hint. When you use the punctuation "" they are called quotation marks. It means what is between them is a quote. You put your own words in between them, NOT a quote from my post. That is dirty pool. Other folks reading your post might think I actually said what you claim I said when I did not say it at all. But to answer you, when you give your money to someone else, it becomes THEIR money, not yours.

DJ,

who said make policy?

We have the right to demand results and be critical when our money is all being pocketed instead of reinvested in the team.

You're right, we could protest by not giving the team any of our hard earned, but the team will flourish, thanks to the sports network given to them for free by MLB

The sale price is also guaranteed, so we could never win again and avg 3k fans a night at the stadium and Angelos will still double his money at the time of sale. IF not, MLB will make up the difference. Therefore, protests have some symbolic effect, but isnt really a deterrent to losing

Wow Sucky?

resorting to comments on punctuation?

Oops I havent used the correct capitalization either

Gonna lose sleep on that one too

Lucky, let me give you some advice. While gil at least as an open mind, and isn't so quick to condemn any and everything MacPhail has done, the same cannot be said of wayne and his other followers.

I have been saying the exact same things you said all winter long, only to be shot down in flames every time. I have shared facts, figures, and (to me at least, ;-)) solid analysis and they will have none of it.

They always have the same doom and gloom outlook. None of the prize Orioles prospects will amount to anything. MacPhail is incompetent and one of the worst GMs to ever grace the earth, even though his record with the Twins was over 500 and he was within 50 games of break-even with a franchise that hasn't won a series in 100 years. Indeed, MacPhail ranks in the top five on the pantheon of Cubs GMs, but you wouldn't know it if you listened to these people.

All I got for my efforts was to be called everything from a liar, uninformed(loved that one), an idiot, unrealistic, simplistic, don't know a baseball from a golf club and the love child of Rush Limbaugh and Bella Abzug.

I even called my favorite sports talk show, the one with Tom Davis and Phil Wood on weekends and a poster here told me I had no dignity and I was "sucking up to Tom Davis." Really?

All this because I remain optimistic and don't share their end of the world attitude when it comes to the Orioles.

Yeah, it's been a fun ride. Luckily I am independently wealthy and am married to a super model, or I would be playing in traffic on Baltimore Street.

Jason,

When is the last time you went to a game?

Luckily I am independently wealthy and am married to a super model...
Posted by: ken | March 15, 2010 6:19 PM

Is this Tom Brady? If so, I wholeheartedly agree with all the insults thrown at you. May I suggest the Capital Beltway for your traffic game?

No true fan favors frugality and losing over good players and winning
~~~~~~~~

This is a Wayne like example of stating an opinion as a fact. I reject your proposition. frugal doesnt equal losing and, as I illustrated in a post above, free spending doesnt mean winning OR good players.

We have the right to demand results and be critical when our money is all being pocketed instead of reinvested in the team.
~~~~~~
Who said anything about rights? You have the right to stand on your head and poop your pants and eat dirt and lots of other things I don't understand anyone wanting to do. I just don't understand whining about it. It doesn't accomplish anything. You have recourse. You can stop giving them your money if you don't approve of how they spend it. I don't knowingly spend with companies whose politics I dont approve of. I could also whine about it but I choose to protest in a manner that has some effect. Flip side is that I try to spend with companies I own stock in. Not saying that you have to follow my example, just that I don't understand spending money for entertainment in a way that doesn't entertain you.

but the team will flourish, thanks to the sports network given to them for free by MLB
~~~~~~~~~~
More Wayne like behavior. You state this as if it was a fact. MLB did not have to give anyone a sports network. Anyone could at any time start a network to compete with Comcast in this market. MLB did not buy the cameras, pay the employees or pay the rent on offices. Nothing was "given to them for free". The issue is about the Nats broadcast rights and that was part of a settlement to avoid a lawsuit over infringing on the O's territorial rights. MASN still had all the normal start up costs and they still pay the Nats as much as they pay the O's for broadcast rights, AND the Nats also own a piece of it. So what exactly was "given" to them? It took NESN twelve years according to reports just to break even, yet fans like you who obviously understand nothing about business, think from day one it was just a fountain of gold.

The sale price is also guaranteed, so we could never win again and avg 3k fans a night at the stadium and Angelos will still double his money at the time of sale. If not, MLB will make up the difference
~~~~~~~~~~~
Reports I read put that guarantee at $365M for the sale of team and its share of MASN. Forbes last year about this time valued the team at $400M in a year when it said 1/3 of the MLB teams value went down. So if the team is worth $400M in a down year how is a $365M guarantee germane to this discussion? I don't know if Forbes included the part ownership of MASN in its 400M number so not sure if I am comparing apples to apples but since the $365M number DOES include it, doesn't matter for this discussion.

The world will not end with a bad free agent signing.

The warehouse loves to overhype the calamity that awaits a bad free agent signing, but this team is flush with cash. Its just an excuse not to spend

They probably made a 450 million dollar profit during the 12 yr losing streak . 450 million, so spare us the sky wouild fall with a bad free agent excuses

For every bad free agent signing, there are 1000 propsects that never make it to the big leagues, should we stop accumulating prospects too?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The world hasn't ended during the current losing streak either so what is your point? According to the Mayans, the world is going to end in two years whether we post a winning record or not.

based on the EBITDA numbers Forbes uses, operating income over the last twelve years is nowhere near that number but I dont know how accurate the Forbes numbers are or what they might not include so you might be right but I would bet it is closer to half of that in true distributable profits.

Lucky, Ken

Look guys, I could list five times the draft choices that have failed than the names of FA's Lucky listed. The Orioles have been drafting high for a long time and still are a 90+ loss team this season in my opinion. And both of you have got to stop blaming the state of the organization when Macphail got here for the fact that the team will likely lose 90 games for the 4th time on his watch. It;s his team now. There are no open ended committments in life other than faith and marriage, why should Macphail get one? All I want is some flexiblility in the plan. Lucky, you have far overstated what I have said. I think Macphail has done a marvelous job rebuilding the farm system and infrastructure and I have said so dozens of times. What I am adament about is that you just can't bet the whole farm on the incremental development and promotion of one player while three fail and you have to go out and get three more prospects for the pipeline How can you have any drop dead date on this project for the team to put a winning product on the field ?. I believe that both of you are in the extreme with Macphail when it comes to a one dimensional approach that may take many more years before we see if it worked. I never suggested that the Orioles go on a wild spending spree. I have suggested that they start filling the holes a little at a time with marquee talent, to buttress the development of the young players. Garrett Atkins signing was not the type of talent that can really make a difference. I am not an extreme person when it comes to it has to be this or that, black or white. Rebuild but fill the holes with quality...and don't worry about blocking the kids who may never make it. Macphail's rebuilding appraoch is rigid and outdated. As I have said, the hardest thing in team sports of any kind is to stop losing. The best way to speed along that process and stop the losing is to import some talented players who are used to winning and throw them in the mix.

Wow Sucky?

resorting to comments on punctuation?

Oops I havent used the correct capitalization either

Gonna lose sleep on that one too
~~~~~~~~

Actually you missed the whole point. It is deceitful to try and twist my words by pretending to quote me on something I never said. I thought it was more polite to correct your punctuation than to point out that you are intellectually dishonest

That said, I was banned from Orioles Hangout for violating their punctuation and capitalization policy so some Oriole fans obviously take that stuff seriously.

Lucky, let me give you some advice. While gil at least as an open mind, and isn't so quick to condemn any and everything MacPhail has done, the same cannot be said of wayne and his other followers.

I have been saying the exact same things you said all winter long, only to be shot down in flames every time. I have shared facts, figures, and (to me at least, ;-)) solid analysis and they will have none of it.

They always have the same doom and gloom outlook. None of the prize Orioles prospects will amount to anything. MacPhail is incompetent and one of the worst GMs to ever grace the earth, even though his record with the Twins was over 500 and he was within 50 games of break-even with a franchise that hasn't won a series in 100 years. Indeed, MacPhail ranks in the top five on the pantheon of Cubs GMs, but you wouldn't know it if you listened to these people.

All I got for my efforts was to be called everything from a liar, uninformed(loved that one), an idiot, unrealistic, simplistic, don't know a baseball from a golf club and the love child of Rush Limbaugh and Bella Abzug.

I even called my favorite sports talk show, the one with Tom Davis and Phil Wood on weekends and a poster here told me I had no dignity and I was "sucking up to Tom Davis." Really?

All this because I remain optimistic and don't share their end of the world attitude when it comes to the Orioles.

Yeah, it's been a fun ride. Luckily I am independently wealthy and am married to a super model, or I would be playing in traffic on Baltimore Street.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Did I miss the advice promised in the first line?

Actually, guru, the Capital Beltway would be a safe place to play traffic games, the place is a 24 hour traffic jam.

And if you believe I'm wealthy and married to a super model, then you'll believe London Bridge is in Arizona. Let me just say that my ex-wife's nickname is Gargantua.

I agree with you on some points, gil. I'll give you the five times more draft choices failing than FA signings, but that's mainly because there are a hundred times more draft choices than FA signings.

And yes, it is Andy MacPhail's team now, no doubt. But he chose a way to build that will not bring instant gratification. He could have tried to sign every big name FA that filed and pulled a George Steinbrenner, circa 1984. And all that would have done is tie up payroll flexibility on long term contracts and that has been proven not to be the way.

He could have done what you suggested, sign some guys to fill in while the kids get ready. And they tried and tried that approach in the past several years, signing enough retread veterans to give the impression of going for 500. To his credit, he has now devoted that money to the system to bring in so many blue chip prospects.

Look at the Cubs and Alphonzo Soriano. They are on their knees praying to the Lord our God and the ghost of Gabby Hartnett that Phonzie can regain some of his past glory. Otherwise, the 136/8 contract, of which there are still five years, will have been a waste. My good buddy Lucky listed several big name, big money contracts that have been a waste.

Is that what you want here?

Give MacPhail some credit. He knows very well that by going with the youth movement, kids he drafts today might not have an affect on the W/L record for a few years. He also knows he will take a beating from the fans and media who need and want that winner NOW.

And as much as I hate to say it, this team was in severe disarray when he took over. It was mismanaged for a decade and that kind of managerial ineptitude cannot be overcome in just a few years. He had to totally revamped and redo this organization and that takes time.

His history is that he will go get the bats, just look at what he did with the Cubs, DLee. ARam, HRod, to name a few, to join with the kids that were drafted under his regime, guys like Soto, Zambrano, Theriot, Marmol. He even got a key piece, their starting 2B, from the Orioles for that washed up, dried up piece of meat named Sosa.

That trade was indicative of the problems of past Oriole management. Go out and get that big name to keep the rabble quiet. They even went to NY for their manager and they did well, for the first 70 games. Then they collapsed faster than a house of cards.

Well, gil, I disagree on one major point: MacPhail's method is not outdated, it is a method that saw Tampa go to the series, after, by the way, they signed four guys in their early years to sell the team and all that did was tie up payroll and reduce flexibility for several years.

Colorado made ESPN's baseball homepage with the tagline "Rockies' homegrown talent leads the way."

And those are just two. It's a method that works in every sport, look at Washington and Chicago in the NHL. It's how the Ravens were rebuilt when they got here, their key draft picks formed the nucleus around which every thing else revolved.

It works, gil. But it takes time and patience. I have that time and patience, do you?

My bad.

All I was trying to say was, you can't reason with those people. I think you made several outstanding points but it goes no where. You see the types of responses you got. It gets to the point of "Why bother?" There are some points of resistance but we are outnumbered. So, it's really an exercise in futility.

I should have made that point clear, I'm sorry.

Gil, I accept what you said above and frankly it matches exactly my own opinion on how I would like to see the team run. And I do mean exactly!

However what I see on here is many many posts saying how bad things are and so few acknowledging the good. The plan as stated IS flexible enough to add bats to fill the holes. We do not know yet whether the budget is flexible enough to do so. This past year circumstances just didn't line up to solve our need for corner infielders. No excuses, it just didn't. I don't like the Atkins signing but the best free agent 1B wasn't much better whether you think that was Andy LaRoche or branyan or Delgado or Blalock. None excite me. I actually wanted a Markakis for Adrian Gonzalez deal fleshed out but Oriole fans didn't want to hear that since surely we could get Adrian for three pitchers who cant make our rotation and a couple minor league bats.

It really comes down to whether you think Holliday would have come here at ANY price (I dont) and if you think signing him and moving Reimold to 1B or DH is plugging our holes. While I wont argue that Holliday isnt any better than Reimold I think it would be a convoluted move that spends a lot of money and doesn't satisfactorily fill our hole at 1B. Business wise, I don't think the reward justifies the risk. So other thana Lackey signing instead of MIllwood, I don't think any of the top free agents made much sense here. My big hope was Gonzalez. Like Tex, he is exactly what I would go after in free agency. BIG production with a high probability of continuing that level in a good citizen package at a position of need . . . make that TWO positions of need, 1B AND cleanup hitter. Throw in gold glove defense and THAT is what I break the bank for. Not Adrian Beltre or even Chone Figgins. But Tex was never coming here at any price and I would not pay the price for Adrian without an extension negotiated ahead of time.

So I guess the difference between us is that you want to do what I would call forcing a bad fit (signing Holliday and moving Nolan to 1B or to DH and Luke to 1B ) I know I am making up the Holliday signing and dont even know if that is something you wanted. I am much more willing to wait for the perfect fit in a guy who truly fills a hole with top production and a high probability of continuing that production.

SInce I brought up my crazy Markakis trade . . . even up it gives us the power we need, equal defense to Nick and more star like production from a young guy. If we have to sweeten the pot, it wouldnt take a Matusz or Tillman to finish the deal because we included real quality from the get go in Nick. We are better situated to replace Nick. Nolan goes to right which was his best position in the minors, Pie to center where he looked less lost than in left and Jones, whose athleticism and defense translates to any OF position goes to left. Tejada takes Nicks spot at 3rd in the order with a true power hitting cleanup guy behind him. If Bell blossoms, he goes to 5 giving you power to protect Adrian. Lou makes the team as backup OF along with Luke. leaving Jones as your backup CF. See? I can dream too

Lucky,

It comes down to which position is harder to fill. Certainly AGonz's power numbers would be better than Nick's, but in San Diego, with those big gaps, a guy like Nick, who hits those gaps, might be more useful than a big bopper.

An intriguing trade for sure. What peripherals would you include?

ken:

Sorry for trying to joke around.

ken,

first of all, while we may disagree most of the time, I have been respectful of you. Perhaps you can find a post here and there where I get frustrated at you, but by and large, I respect your opinion. That said, I assume you must have been talking about other posters.

ken and Lucky,

There you go again........ As usual, you exaggerate what people like Gil and I say, to the point where you just downright lie.

I've never said to go out and buy the most expensive free agents. Instead, I've only suggested the O's spend like the mid market they are. I've even used St Louis as the best comparison.

I've also never suggested anything like a 162-0 scenario. Instead, all I've wanted is 82 wins - a winning season. And yes, I wanted it this year.

It's also a 'lie' to say I never acknowledge the good young players the O's do have. You may want to look up my past post to see how dishonest you're truly being.

Because people like me state the obvious, as well as the facts, we're called haters and whiners. So be it!

At least we speak the truth! Every year, we end up being correct... every year.

You both on the other hand, base everything on hope and optimism..... which is fine and commendable.

All I ask is if you continue to do so without constantly and deliberately lying about what some of us say.....

Being positive about the O's doesn't make you good people, especially if you misrepresent other posters.

Being positive also doesn't make you better Oriole fans than me, Gil or anyone else.... something that you may need to think about for a second.

My bad.

All I was trying to say was, you can't reason with those people. I think you made several outstanding points but it goes no where. You see the types of responses you got. It gets to the point of "Why bother?" There are some points of resistance but we are outnumbered. So, it's really an exercise in futility.

I should have made that point clear, I'm sorry.
~~~~~~~~~~~

LOL I was just teasing you. I knew exactly what you were saying. Believe me I take my own advice. I get a kick out of the interplay or I wouldn't do it. Even for free I wouldn't engage in entertainment that didn't entertain me. It is like paying to see a movie, hating every minute of it, but you wont walk out because you paid for it. When I get frustrated with it I leave for a while. I don't take trolls seriously and I do differentiate between who I think is a troll and who I don't.

Look guys, I could list five times the draft choices that have failed than the names of FA's Lucky listed
~~~~~~~

my point wasn't the comparative numbers of failures, it was the comparative financial impact of those failures. I am sure we all remember how the Belle signing and subsequent injury pretty much ended the era of Angelos big spending

Lucky,

It comes down to which position is harder to fill. Certainly AGonz's power numbers would be better than Nick's, but in San Diego, with those big gaps, a guy like Nick, who hits those gaps, might be more useful than a big bopper.

An intriguing trade for sure. What peripherals would you include?

I was figuring one of our next tier of pitchers . . . I have no idea how the O's rank the prospects or how the Padres would rank them If it takes an Arrietta, Erbe or Britton. At the time I was looking for Kouzmanoff coming east with Gonzalez so I would have to rethink it today. But it is likely moot as I don't know if SD would take on Nicks contract and doubt we would get a window to negotiate an extension.

wayne, you and I have had some knock down and drag out fights on here. I have never said we are better baseball fans than you or others. Heck, you are the one that puts his money on the line and goes to the games, because of work(I'm a coach and semi-pro umpire), I'm lucky if I get to a half dozen games a year. Indeed, the one game I went to last year was started by Adam Eaton, so you know that was a waste. I respect you for that.

That being said, I stand by many comments I have made about you and your negativity, I certainly don't admit to lying about. It seems to me that you constantly take the position that whatever they do is wrong. I do remember you saying MacPhail has been a horrible GM over the past ten years, his record says otherwise, and that anything less than a winning record this year is unacceptable. I disagree.
This is a foundation year, one that hopefully will be something that the team can build upon. Winning this year is not the point, not with a young team like this one. I can accept it, doesn't mean I like it.

And I do know that 98 and 9/10s percent of what you say is negative. Other posters have said, Pete even refers to it. Someone even posed a question to Jeff Z with your name in it, so I'm not the only one. Frankly, I don't remember anything you've ever said that's been positive. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

You were not the one who called me a liar and uninformed, I know that, I forget who did and honestly, I have no desire to remember, that person doesn't exist to me. But you certainly have intimated that you think I don't know what I'm talking about. I remember the jokes about the "warehousers", I believe that was your term. And if some of the more vile things said by others has been attributed to you, I apologize. But I also remember some of the more close to the line things you have said, I remember one particular post where you said I was seething over the things being said about me. I wish this blog was like some others that keep a record of what was said.

Lucky and Ken,

One of you wrote some time back that Wayne and I reminded you of the little kids in the back seat of the car constantly yelling, "Are we there yet?" That was a funny line and even I chuckled. But let me turn that around because actually I think it is a fair question. A pure rebuilding effort is a process not a program. A program has a defined beginning and end, a process does not.

Do either of you have a date certain in mind by which the team should display a winning record, and then the playoffs?
It is easy to sit back and throw stones at anyone who suggests that Macphail needs to produce results in W's and L's. Have either of you thought about what your tolerance level is for the plan, or do you think the journey and the process is more important than results?

Nice try Wayne. Not sure what you are referring to but I don't think I said you never say anything nice about individual players, I said you never acknowledge progress. I intentionally used the most extreme exaggeration (162-0) in keeping with a well established legal precedent. No one could take that comment literally and that is the whole point of exaggerating to make one's point.. If you acknowledged progress, you wouldn't refer to 20 years before the team is competitive as none of the current crop will even be around then.

I just love when you try to take the moral high road. Only YOU would make this about being a good person. I assume that since you are a creep on here that you are a creep in real life, but I don't go there because this has nothing to do with being a good person and frankly I don't care if you are a good person or not..

As for being a good fan . . . you admitted in the post above that if they ever win again, you would hop back on the bandwagon . . . . implying that you are currently OFF the bandwagon. Hopping on the bandwagon means suddenly caring about a team when it gets good so I believe you described your fan status quite well. You aren't one now but will be one when they are winning.

Lets see, whats next . . . you don't think we should sign the most expensive free agent, but instead should spend like St Louis . . . who just signed the most expensive free agent of 2010 by almost 40M dollars. Is it any wonder I am confused?

Anything else I should think about for a second?

Lucky,

I just read your reply to Wayne. We all use hyperbole as you just admitted, and so have I. When I constantly say Macphail is "planning to lose" you have upbraided me in the past for that invective.

I remember the late Bum Phillips when he coached the Houston Oilers years back. A member of the press asked him what he thought about one of his coaching contemporary's, Don Shula. Bum said" He is so good, that he could take his'n and beat your'un, then he could your'un and beat his'n"

I think we should have some fun sometime and switch arguments just like we did on the debating teams in college.

Gil,
That was my zinger, lol.

Very fair question but I doubt I can answer you with a reply you will be satisfied with. Essentially my answer is no. I have no target date in mind for two reasons. First, I recognize that the deck is stacked against them.The other major sports leagues have mechanisms to equalize opportunity but this one doesn't. The Yankees have a larger market which means more of every kind of revenues. Steinbrenner is richer than Angelos so even if they both liquidated fully to buy a championship, Angelos cant spend with him. So the Orioles have to do everything better than the Yanks, even "perfectly" to beat them. I know you just think this is making excuses but it is a fact of life. I feel that the Os need to build an organization which can hang around near the top for a long stretch waiting for circumstances (luck, injuries, alignment of the stars, sunspots) to conspire to put them in the World Series. That or just build and when you are close, go for the brass ring and blow your wad on free agents. My model is the Colts. They are usually not the best team in the NFL but they hang around the top echelon enough and events conspire to put them in the Super Bowl and once you are in anything can happen. The one year I thought the Colts really were the best, they lost to the Steelers in the AFC championship game. The next year, Edge was gone, the team was weaker and they won. Go figure. That is my model and to accomplish it in baseball you need to have a productive farm system.

The second reason is that I am a baseball fan first and an Oriole fan second. I grew up on baseball of sound organizations and still like it better than today's free agent era. I know the times have changed but I don't have to like it. I admire the skills of a GM building a sound organization from the bottom up much more than a GM writing a check to cover his mistakes .I appreciate the game of baseball and hate that today it is all about stats for fantasy geeks or all about wins and losses.

Regarding the Yanks nothing has changed. They always bought players from the St Louis Browns like they were a farm team. They always had the most money. I didn't like them when I was a kid and I don't want my team emulating them now. Just old fashioned I guess. Stubborn? Probably. Cutting my nose off to spite my face? No doubt. But even if Angelos fires MacPhail in a year or two, any future success will be on the foundation MacPhail is building today. Gruden won with Dungy's team and this might be the same. I don't know whether it was Beatty or Flanny who brought in Joe Jordan but they get kudos for putting Jordan in place for MacPhail.I just dont buy that these things are as easy or as black and white as fans want to make them.

To me it is not about whether Andy has been running the team for three years or four. It is about when the fruits of a bottom up rebuild hit the major league team and that is just happening now. The win loss record wasn't even on my mind until this year. Andy's kids (not to be confused with Jerry's kids) are just starting to be major leaguers. So now we can start to know if this class is as deep as rumored. If it has the upside we have heard it has. But it has not been the team hyping these kids. Andy and Dave are pretty understated actually. There has actually been very little attrition through the minor league levels. Loewen was a pretty spectacular exception. But someone prominent is sure to still fall by the wayside. They always do. That is ok . There are plenty more down there starting to percolate up through the ranks.And I don't think that the current prospects are ANYTHING like the prospects of the last decade like Riley, Cabrera etc. But time will tell.

I cant make up my mind whether I think Peter is sitting back laughing at us or just saying a pox on both their houses!

Lucky/Ken/Wayne,

For all to long, posts from wayne are vastly negative. Nothing against negativity, there's all ways room for nay-sayers, but the heights of drama and the rhetorical melodramatics can be stupefying. Besides calling a person a name, than jumping to the high ground of being above it, the lack of any sort of tact. It's like argument by anvil.
But to be fair, wayne does get more than his fair share of back-lash...SOME of which is deserved. He wasn't the one made the nasty post Phil Itzoe--and a certain swamp dweller seems to like posting as him, but the last post of Waynes, seems to offer that ray of hope...that maybe he can be at least a bit less singularly focused.

Gil,

I like the idea of switching things up and arguing the other side...if for no other reason than hilarity. By the way, I for one know the difference between you and wayne. Although you have a similar perspective, you seem better suited at expressing it.

Lucky,

"Very fair question but I doubt I can answer you with a reply you will be satisfied with. Essentially my answer is no. I have no target date in mind for two reasons. First, I recognize that the deck is stacked against them.The other major sports leagues have mechanisms to equalize opportunity but this one doesn't. The Yankees have a larger market which means more of every kind of revenues. Steinbrenner is richer than Angelos so even if they both liquidated fully to buy a championship, Angelos cant spend with him. So the Orioles have to do everything better than the Yanks, even "perfectly" to beat them. I know you just think this is making excuses but it is a fact of life. I feel that the Os need to build an organization which can hang around near the top for a long stretch waiting for circumstances (luck, injuries, alignment of the stars, sunspots) to conspire to put them in the World Series. That or just build and when you are close, go for the brass ring and blow your wad on free agents."

...that is reason so piercing my eyes are bleeding. I just had to copy it and post it again. {{applause}}

imho.

ken,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply......

I'll just say that I have been positive about the O's numerous times. I love some of the young players brought in by AM, similar to some of the young players brought in from the previous regime (markakis, Bergy, etc...). It's just that I don't believe, as his record proves over the last 2 decades, that AM can put a truly competitive 'team' on the field. In that way, I believe the game passed him by long ago.

Again, we disagree, but that's ok...

Lucky,

Do you not believe a team can go after high priced FA's and still spend (overall) like a medium market, middle of the pack spending team? Is the concept truly confusing to you? Serious question.

And do you believe one isn't a fan just because one is not on board with the current direction? Do you define someone as a fan only if they're faithfully blind? Really?

As for progress.... That's an interesting one.

In little league and even in minor league ball, progress is determined by a number of factors.

In the majors however, progress is measured by one thing - wins and losses.

Aside from wins and losses Lucky, would you agree that everything else is 'talk'? And the 'talk' could come from anyone... posters, media, the warehouse, national sites, etc. But isn't 'talk' meaningless until it turns into positive results?

Wasn't it 'talk' last year this time when people said the O's would be a 500 team? And isn't it 'talk' now that those same people are saying the exact same thing this year?

In business, does 'talk' matter to share holders when their company comes in last?

Progress? I'll stick with wins and losses Lucky. I'll let guys like you listen to all the 'talk'...

I am curious if Brian misses like 6 weeks, don't you guys feel like the best way to find out if Justin Turner is legit is for him to play over Wiggy and Andino? The only way to know if this guy can help the team out is to see what he does in Baltimore. I don't get the logic of Wiggy or Andino being the go to guys if Brian misses significant time.

I certainly hope Brian is healthy all season long, but I am not feeling very optimistic, but if there was ever a time to see if we have a big league player on our hands in Justin Turner, now would be the time to find out.

paulie,

For the record, I've said many times that Gil presents an opposing view FAR better than I ever could.

Gil's a gentleman, while I'm just a Yuk! We both want to win though, and we're both tired of the constant hype and spin.

All I know is.... In business, I'd want Gil on my team. Success has little time for excuses --- only results!

"One Bad FA signing is not the end of the world"

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN I GIVE YOU ALBERT BELLE AND REST MY CASE!

Wayne

number one, this is a blog so the ionly real product or currency is ALL talk.
number two is that a business has to talk itself up, not down. It is called PR. You can get a degree in it at college. Is it mostly BS? of course. But surely you can see through the PR anwd differentiate the steak from the sizzle.

Last, because I am rushing out the door, NO, wins and losses are not all there is. Progress can be seen with ones eyes before it is measurable in wins and losses. This is my single biggest problem with your position. Two teams can both be .500 but one can be .500 on its way to a dynasty and the other can be .500 on its way down to a decade of futility. Your position in your posts gives no recognition of progress made towards the win loss record we all crave. THAT is the crux of my complaint with your position.

to be continued, I am sure . . .

Lucky, Ken, Wayne..

Lucky that was an honest answer and it finally gives me the perspective that you, and and some others have that clahes with mine, Wayne's and others. In your mind there is no time frame for winning, it is about trying to do all of the right things to get the team in a position to win, and win for a long time. My father used to refer to that approach as "getting ready to get ready". I think it is a genuine and logical viewpoint.

I don't think, however, that it represents the economic reality for a franchise that is still in decline from a fan support basis. Let's just say the team experiences another 5 years of losing before the second and third wave of kids come along to finally form that steady, long term nucleous. I think we all agree that the only thing that will bring the fans back is winning and the thing that will keep attendance in a steady decline is losing. By my calculations another 5 years of losing would take attendance down to around a million. I just don't think that is acceptable, and I doubt Peter Angelos does either. I don't think it would upset the rebuilding applecart to bring in some marquee talent and show the fans that the Orioles are trying to win now. we are losing a whole generation of fans, kids whose attention span of a gnat fixes itself on a winner.

It would have been much cleaner if Macphail was around and started this project 6 or 7 years ago. Then I believe he could have taken all the time in the world. Unfortuately, that is not the case.

I believe Andy Macphail is going to plod along as a good soldier until he is prodded by the owner to show some results. Frankly, I think another 90+ loss season in 2010 is going to set the media and Angelos scrambling. I think at this stage this franchise needs something more than the long continuing rebuliding slog that is in store if Macphail is allowed to have his way.

I think the franchise needs an intervention.

Who said anything about rights? You have the right to stand on your head and poop your pants and eat dirt and lots of other things I don't understand anyone wanting to do.
............

Now do that while being miserably negative and excessively using "!" and LOL LMFAO and other ill placed acronyms and you are on to something!

Lucky,

All very logical!

However, there comes a time when the 'talk' must turn into said progress, whether it be baseball or any business.

I agree with you about there being two type of 500 teams. Problem is, the O's were 18 games below 500 last year, and hardly looked like a dynasty in the making.

Get to 500 first Lucky..... anywhere near 500, and your argument will possibly have a fraction of weight.

Until then, continue to cheer for a few good players, while watching what is in my opinion, a very bad baseball 'team'.

And it's not really an opinion by the way, as the wins and losses always back me up. I just thought I'd be less negative in my approach.

I wish people would stop mentioning Albert Belle when talking about bad FA signings

Do u realize that insurance covered 70-80 pct of that ?

Do u realize albert was signed 12 yrs ago ?

Do u realize that the O's usually have about 40 million on paper profits every yr not counting MASN ?

DO u realize that 40 million invested back into the team would buy a nice cleanup hitter and ace ?

Do u realize that a legit cleanup hitter makes our lineup MUCH MUCH better with all the other hitters in the lineup positively affected by his presence?

DO u realize that a legit ace makes our whole pitching staff better?

DO u realize that with these 2 players mentioned that the O's would have a legit chance to COMPETE THIS YEAR?

Do u realize that the O's choose to pocket money that could be re-invested into the team?

DO u realize that they actually still fool people ?

Do u realize that ppl who defend this nonsense are bigger fans of Angelos making money than my beloved Orioles winning ?

DO u realize that 40 mil X 12 = 480 million in profits not counting MASN ?

DO u realize that if even a fraction of that money was invested in the right 2 or 3 players that the streak could've ended a long time ago ?

DO u realize that correcting grammar or calling ppl negative doesnt change any of this ?

Do you realize that holding the team accountable might ?

love it!

Chris,

Last game I saw of the Orioles in person was when they visited Miami last yr

B4 that, I attended about 20 ST games in Ft Lauderdale and Jupiter in 2009

Ill be at both games in Jupiter next wk

Why do u ask ?

When was the last game you went to ?

Gil,
Not anybody in their right minds that thinks that 5 more yrs. of losing is acceptable.

The premise that some seem to go under is that there is no improvement or no difference since mid 2007. Yes, the on the field product has gotten worse if you only look at the bottem line as wins and loses.

Losing while guys like Weiters, Matusz, Bergenson, Jones, Markakis, etc. go through their growing pains is totally different then watching a bunch of borderline ML'ers sleep walk through another season while they hang on to getting a check.

Baseball is that one funny sport where a group of guys that mature together can bond into a team like no other sport,
In the old days the O's did it in the 60's and again in the 70',80's, &90's each time building a team around a home grown core. And they had great successful runs.

When the organization tried to hang on and win by going back to FA every year they destroyed any sense of team that the O's had left.

Albert Belle was the straw that broke the camel's back, and it stayed broken for a long time. Kind of like Humpty Dumpty, no body knew how to put it back together because for a longtime they didn't even know it was broke. Just go out and get Manny Sosa, that will fix things...

I've been to Frederick and Bowie(been trying to talk the wife into going down to Norfolk for a weekend homestand this year) and the O's minor league product is light year's different from just a few years ago.

The winning hasn't really started there because the O's are still promoting guys up the ladder so quickly. But the ML prospects are there and are coming through the system.

That's where I don't go for Wayne's Warehouser' line of bull. I've seen the difference because I like Baseball enough to bother to go look. Wayne hasn't, and denies it's existence. but insists he knows more about baseball then anyone here, just because he says so.

I'm looking forward to finding out where Givens stats out this yr. If he goes to Aberdeen, I'll make a trip down to see him. I've never made the trip to Bluefield, I hear it's a long way to go for rookie league baseball.

McPhail had a lot to fix, it would have been better if he started 5 yrs. ago. But he's started now. I have a friend that goes to ST every yr. He says the difference for the O's this yr is remarkable, and in two years their complex will be amoung the best in baseball. How long has it been that our ST site has been a laughing stock?

The process has started, this is the kind of stuff that needed to be done so FA's don't think the O's are spending "Confederate Money". Ole Syd should have known when he outbid other teams and the FA went else where, Ole Humpty Dumpty was already cracked. But the O's went on like nothing was broke.

MountainFan

I'm with you on the Albert Belle deal all the way. I thought it was just awful to bring that thug to Baltimore. His hip degradation was a sign of steroid abuse and he had Roid rage 24/7. I was there one of the nights he signaled the hecklers in the left field stands by grabbing his crotch. Class act all the way. I get to Bowie a lot, remember when it was called RIP's? I saw Brandon Waring hit one out of sight at the end of the season. Has a Dale Murphy build and swing.

I agree with you that Macphail will be long gone if it takes another 5 years just to win 82 games. I think he may be gone at the end of this year if they throw in another 90+ loss clunker. The Orioles need to play at least .500 Baseball this year. No reason not to. It's time, Rebuild but win while doing it. What a novel thought, Andy!

Wayne is really Wayne Coyne

Gil,

U keep saying Andy will be gone if he loses 90

Where are you getting this from ?

The profits are rolling in, y would petey kill the golden goose ?

I think wayne coyne is a royals fan

Hi Jason C. in South Florida,

Actually Jason, I feel that if I repeat that anecdote enough someone in the media will pick it up and attribute it to an unnamed source close to Peter Angelos.

Well, I'm not Wayne Coyne, and I don't even get the reference. Is it funny? If so, good one!

If this guy is a KC fan though, that's cool. KC spends according to their market size and they are always out there trying to compete, even with a lack of revenue resources.

Good for them!

Hey Gil

Works for me !!

KC has a higher payroll than the Orioles though

ok, Gil. I see through your ploy . . . you are still trying to swap positions and keep arguing with no pause, lol. I am always the one reminding that this is a business and taking the owners side . . . but my only response to your position here is . . . Screw the attendance. That is Peter's problem. I hate Hate, HATE the idea of signing some "marquee" player just to throw the fans a bone. Sosa . . . Marty Cordoba . . . too many years of those type moves scream to me that doing something to sell tickets, throw the fans a bone, light up the marquee with recognizable names is counterproductive to winning. Selling seats is not my problem and not my interest in following a baseball team.

Further, do you think Andy didn't explain just how he intended to rebuild the team to Peter when he interviewed? Do you think Peter didnt know exactly what he was getting in Andy? I have no doubt that Peter had a time frame in mind and it was likely shorter than the time frame Andy had in mind but I would bet neither thought the plan would put the team in the playoffs in 4 years. And perhaps that is another difference between us. To me success is making the playoffs. WInning half your games is mathematically better than winning 1/3 of them but to me it is not materially different.

Wayne- I disagree. IMO this is EXACTLY what a dynasty in the making looks like. We brought up 7 rookies last year (counting on my memory for that number, I think it is correct). Hardly a surprise that 7 rookies make a bad team. But each of them showed enough sparks at times to show promise of more. Bringing up that much young talent at one time is how you build a dynasty. The fact that there is still substantial talent on the farm builds on that theory. The big kicker of course is whether the team will really deliver on its promise and sign the stud when the time is right to push over the edge and into the playoffs. I do not question that a move like that will be needed to make the playoffs and none of us know how that will ultimately play out. If they go cheap and bring in a second rate free agent instead of a true star, I will cry foul . . . but I don't want them signing "name" players today to put fans in the seats.

Flaming Lips said:

I wish people would stop mentioning Albert Belle when talking about bad FA signings

Do u realize that insurance covered 70-80 pct of that ?

Do u realize albert was signed 12 yrs ago ?

Do u realize that the O's usually have about 40 million on paper profits every yr not counting MASN ?

DO u realize that 40 million invested back into the team would buy a nice cleanup hitter and ace ?

Do u realize that a legit cleanup hitter makes our lineup MUCH MUCH better with all the other hitters in the lineup positively affected by his presence?

DO u realize that a legit ace makes our whole pitching staff better?

DO u realize that with these 2 players mentioned that the O's would have a legit chance to COMPETE THIS YEAR?

Do u realize that the O's choose to pocket money that could be re-invested into the team?

DO u realize that they actually still fool people ?

Do u realize that ppl who defend this nonsense are bigger fans of Angelos making money than my beloved Orioles winning ?

DO u realize that 40 mil X 12 = 480 million in profits not counting MASN ?

DO u realize that if even a fraction of that money was invested in the right 2 or 3 players that the streak could've ended a long time ago ?

DO u realize that correcting grammar or calling ppl negative doesnt change any of this ?

Do you realize that holding the team accountable might ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1. Why? Belle was the worst for this team so how can we discuss the issue without bringing him up?

2. yup

3. Hadnt done the math or looked it up but sounds right. So what? The failure of that contract changed the management of this franchise for all time. THAT is the issue, IMO

4. First define your terms. What do you mean by paper profits? You can lose an awful lot of money and via GAPP, have huge paper profits. Second, please cite a source for that number. It is much higher than Forbes states for operating income, leading me to believe that by paper profits you mean after depreciation etc.

5. $40M a year would, lump sum $40M not so much.

6. uhmmmm yeah . . . so?

7. see number six above.

8. well that is a valid opinion.

9. loathe to answer a question with a question but . . . Do YOU realize that the Orioles are a business and the purpose of any business is to generate profits for its owner(s)?

10. If they do, shame on the people not smart enough to see through whatever you think they are fooling them about.

11. Do you realize that your "beloved Orioles" are the personal property of Peter Angelos? Do you root for your neighbors beloved Prius too?

12. I can do the math but I still find your numbers highly suspect. You cannot spend "PAPER profits" on anything, never mind salaries. The implication of "paper" is that they are NOT tangible, merely a function of accounting that shows a profit on paper but not in your bank account.

13. Besides my not trusting your numbers, I didnt trust the braintrust in place to spend the money on the "right" 2 or 3 players post Gillick and pre Andy.

14. Yup. Do you realize that whining on this board doesn't either?

15. So hold them accountable. But do it in an effective manner. Do not buy tickets, do not buy MLB gear. Do not watch on TV. In other words hit them in the pocketbook, not in some blog. Blogging is not holding anyone accountable.It is taking out your frustrations on other frustrated fans.

15

You think Cordova is a marquee name that would sell tickets ?

And the award for the dumbest poster ever goes to lucky horseshoe

I thought it was the BALTIMORE Orioles, not the Angelos Orioles

When did they change the name ?

Wayne-

The Wayne Coyne reference wasnt funny but no insult. He is the face of the band Flaming Lips, where the poster of the same name presumably came from

Lucky,

Thanks for clearing that up... I think!

Lucky,

I'm not changing my positions. I think Macphail has done a good job with the farm system but I am not content to sit back and watch him do the same thing for the next 6 years. Einstein said that's the definition of insanity. Now that the farm system and infrastructure and methods are in place we need a new GM with vision to take the next step. Rebuilding is all Andy knows. I think the organization is now positioned for an infusion of talent from the outside to make the team competitive faster. And I think fans are an important part of the equation, Lucky. This is the entertainment business, also. Give Andy a gold watch and bring in somebody under 40 who isn't afraid of big contracts.

Anonymous,

I disagree. He's not dumb because he thinks Cordova is a marquee player. He's dumb because he thinks he's witnessing "dynasty building" right now. My boy MacPhail is doing even better than I thought with all this rebuilding talk. This stuff really works. Its gold! I can milk this for another decade. I'm glad I read this blog.

You think Cordova is a marquee name that would sell tickets ?

And the award for the dumbest poster ever goes to lucky horseshoe
~~~~~~~~
it isnt about what "I" think, and if your reading comprehension was above kindergarten level you would have gotten that.. IT was about bringing in a recognizable name and Marty had a couple good years so everyone knew his name.

I thought it was the BALTIMORE Orioles, not the Angelos Orioles

When did they change the name ?
~~~~~~~~~~~

Who cares what the team name is? Angelos OWNS the team . . . geez all the mental midgets hit the blog at the same time! Do you think Quaker State is owned by a bunch of guys in broad brimmed black hats? Or Aunt Jemima Syrup is owned by a black woman in the south somewhere? So who owns Geico? The lizard or the cavemen?

Lucky,

I'm not changing my positions. I think Macphail has done a good job with the farm system but I am not content to sit back and watch him do the same thing for the next 6 years. Einstein said that's the definition of insanity. Now that the farm system and infrastructure and methods are in place we need a new GM with vision to take the next step. Rebuilding is all Andy knows. I think the organization is now positioned for an infusion of talent from the outside to make the team competitive faster. And I think fans are an important part of the equation, Lucky. This is the entertainment business, also. Give Andy a gold watch and bring in somebody under 40 who isn't afraid of big contracts.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

1. You have no idea if he intends to do the same thing.

2. Just who said that quote originally is in question but no matter who said it, it is NOT a definition of insanity. In fact, doing the same thing over and over expecting a better result is the definition of practice. So are you against practice? Should we cancel spring training games or just the workouts?

3. Rebuilding is NOT all Andy knows. He got an intimate view of a championship team when he was a kid in Baltimore. He led two Twins teams to the World Series. After that he worked for the Tribune Company while it was hemorrhaging money resulting ultimately in the recent bankruptcy . . .filed to prevent the ballclub from getting taken over.

4. You assume Andy wont sign a stud. You assume if he doesn't that it is Andy's fault (not Angelos). Too much assuming for me. You have no idea what MacPhail would do with a $140M budget for player salaries.

5. I still say that this past offseason is not a good measure as the team is still so bad that top free agents had to balk at coming here and because there was no fit here for a top FA.

6. the customer is always an important part of any business, just not in strategic planning, hiring and firing or succession planning

I disagree. He's not dumb because he thinks Cordova is a marquee player. He's dumb because he thinks he's witnessing "dynasty building" right now
~~~~~~~~~

Reading comprehension is definitely lacking here tonight. No where did I say this was a dynasty. I said that a dynasty starts this way with similarly aged talent coming up together to form a ten year nucleus. I did not predict this particular group would be a dynasty. In fact I clearly said the best we could hope for is to hang around near the top and get lucky once or twice while this generation of players was around.

Peter your bloggers need remedial reading and writing. Maybe you can send then to the School of R . . . well, maybe not.

Lucky,

I was a Bank auditor for 5 years. I tested about 10% of a department's transactions and if I found no exceptions I moved on. If I found an exception I expanded the sample until I could be certain that policies and procedures were being followed. If I tested Andy Macphail's transactions so far with the Orioles I would move on, content that he is following Angelo's orders to keep the payroll down not spend any money and, rebuild on the cheap. And yes, I would have briefed Angelos before I went in to see what the directives were. I believe we have enough of a sample to be 99% certain that Macphail is going to try to rebuild strictly through prospect promotion, There are no exceptions to induce me to expand the sample. It is pure logic.

I run my own business now and I expect results. I am a capatalist and expect profits. So is Peter Angelos. I like you but you are going to be very disappointed when Angelos fires Macphail for his one dimensional approach that is killing the marketing of the team. I said it before and I will say it again.... Andy Macphail needs to go...the franchise can not go forawrd as long as he is calling the shots.

Damn lucky, if people are always misunderstanding you, maybe your communication skills are lacking

I usually skip over your long winded diatribes unless I am having trouble sleeping

Of course, it's always been my theory that ninnys who come to a sports blog to correct English do so in the safety of a blog so they don't have to worry about getting the punch in the mouth that would normally be forthcoming under other circumstances

Lucky,

I was a Bank auditor for 5 years. I tested about 10% of a department's transactions and if I found no exceptions I moved on. If I found an exception I expanded the sample until I could be certain that policies and procedures were being followed. If I tested Andy Macphail's transactions so far with the Orioles I would move on, content that he is following Angelo's orders to keep the payroll down not spend any money and, rebuild on the cheap. And yes, I would have briefed Angelos before I went in to see what the directives were. I believe we have enough of a sample to be 99% certain that Macphail is going to try to rebuild strictly through prospect promotion, There are no exceptions to induce me to expand the sample. It is pure logic.

I run my own business now and I expect results. I am a capatalist and expect profits. So is Peter Angelos. I like you but you are going to be very disappointed when Angelos fires Macphail for his one dimensional approach that is killing the marketing of the team. I said it before and I will say it again.... Andy Macphail needs to go...the franchise can not go forawrd as long as he is calling the shots.
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The problem Gil is that you are sampling a period when he has announced he isnt going to spend on free agents. That is like saying that since a bank didnt earn any CRA credits prior to the Act being passed they wont earn any AFTER the CRA is enacted. He was blunt about not signing free agents until he saw what they had. The focus was on building the farm, the scouting, international operations. He clearly said that this season was to be more about wins and losses at the major league level. So your sample as I see it is one offseason during which he absolutely failed to make a major improvement through free agency. I submit that your methodology is flawed and your germane sample is too small.

As for Angelos, I don't understand your point. You apparently think that Andy went to an interview, described the method he would use to rebuild this team and was told by Peter that no, he was hired but that he had to continue to run it in the failed manner that "faked out" the fams but Andy came in and did what he wanted anyway and Peter has just let him defy orders for the last 3 to 4 years? uhmmm I don't get it

Damn lucky, if people are always misunderstanding you, maybe your communication skills are lacking

I usually skip over your long winded diatribes unless I am having trouble sleeping

Of course, it's always been my theory that ninnys who come to a sports blog to correct English do so in the safety of a blog so they don't have to worry about getting the punch in the mouth that would normally be forthcoming under other circumstances
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If they werent all ignorant cretins like you, I might agree. But when it is idiots like you and Blancione who threaten violence, I don't pay much attention. I posted my name, address and phone number for him when he threatened me and the Sun or Peter or whatever powers that be deleted it within minutes so I guess you will have to satisfy yourself with beating your wife and kids or kicking the dog. It would actually be worth a fat lip to have you arrested and kept off the computer for a while.

ok everyone,

It's time to relax and take a deep breath.

Lucky, I cocede on this thread. Good job explaining your positions. If you are not already working for Greg Bader and Bill Stetka you should be, and I am not being sarcastic. As a matter of fact you should be the Vice President of Marketing and PR for the Orioles. You do a much better job of explaining what they are trying to do than they do. See you on another thread where I will try to antagonize you further. :}

I like people that debate on the premise that PA loses on purpose.

Mismanaged over the past 12 years, sure. But lose on purpose? c'mon. That is incredibly stupid. Why would someone who built his fortune on winning lose on purpose?

Pure poppycock.

PS- Lucky, its really not worth the fight vs. Jason and his less talter egos. Its the same thing over and over. Spend all the profits in advance of knowing what the profits actually are. The best hing about the argument is that Forbes has no way of knowing whats going on! It is all based on guesstimates. Baseball teams are privately held companies, none of it is public knowledge