Not crazy Pete. Its crazy to keep him out...the eras define themselves...sterooid, dead ball, pitching, etc. I'd love to see how some of the greatest hitters of the early 1900's fared if the defenders wore the gloves of today and the fields were in good shape. They played on asteroid fields back in the day. Not that they weren't gifted, but it'd make a difference. Its not the hall of nice guys who were pretty good (Dawson). Its the hall of FAME. Mcgwire famous with big numbers? Vote him in.

What's the deal with the Sun's policy? Why don't they let you vote?

My take: If I had a ballot, I would have voted for McGwire in his first year of eligibility. The fact of that matter is that the guy never broke the rules, as there was no PED policy in place while he was playing.

The guy hit 583 home runs. Of the three pieces of the complete offensive player (getting on base, stealing bases and hitting for power), he was great at two of them: .394 lifetime OBP and .588 lifetime SLG (9th All Time).

As far as the competitive edge thing goes, if Canseco's claims are right (and most of them have been) and 80% of ballplayers were using steroids in the late 90's and early 00's, how did anyone have a competitive edge?

And, for history's sake, how is the steroid competitive edge any different from the competitive edge that players gave themselves in the 50's and 60's when they were eating handfuls of greenies before games?

I don't mean to sound like I don't have any sort of moral compass, but when it comes down to it, we have no idea who was using during the Steroid Era and who wasn't.

Nolan Ryan was throwing 95+ mph fastballs into his mid 40's after 20 years and 4200+ innings in the majors. How do we know he wasn't using something?

Paul Molitor hit 20 home runs for the first time as a 36-year-old. How do we know he wasn't using something?

Brace yourselves...

Cal Ripken played in 2,632 consecutive games. 500 more than the next guy on the list. 1300 more than number three. How do we know he wasn't using something?

Mark McGwire was the first HOF eligible guy of an entire era of players that will have a question mark about it for years to come. What are the HOF voters going to do when Frank Thomas is eligible? His numbers are comparable to McGwire's and he played in the same era. Are the voters just going to block every great player who retired/retires between 2001 and 2020?

You back to being able to vote?

By the way you seemed astonished that Blylevin didn't make the "Hall."

Isn't he the guy who flipped the media the bird from the dugout about a million years ago?

I saw several of the old time HOFer's said they would never go back to Cooperstown if a roider got in. For that reason alone, I think you can never vote for the guy. 1,600 career hits isn't too impressive either.

Yeah Pete, why won't the Sun let you guys vote? Hope it's not some stupid reason but I'm sure it is.

If ya can't answer here then email the reason.

Pete --

Just curious -- the fact that you get a ballot and aren't allowed to vote -- is your essentially blank ballot included in the percentages?? Or is it disregarded entirely? It would be a shame to have candidates hurt by nothing more than a policy that prohibits voters from voting.

..............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Good question. No, our policy has no effect on the outcome of the election, except that a couple of us probably would have voted for Blyleven. If you don't return your ballot, it doesn't get counted or figured into the percentages. If you return it signed with no names checked, however, it does count and affect the percentages. Of course, we don't do that, because that would count as a vote.

Peter,

Would you be considered one of the five ballots that were returned blank? Because I have a very low opinion of those writers, but if several of them were in a similar situation as opposed to the Jay Marriotis of the world who admitted what they did and deserve their vote revoked, I would be much less angered at them.

In other news, Tiger Woods had an affair, Sammy Sosa turned white, David Cone beat off in the bullpen, and Darrell Strawberry likes that powder.

Slow day in birdland and MLB, huh? Scuse me while I tune into streak week.

BTW, why was it okay with the media when they spotted the bottle of Andro in his locker in 1998? Sure, it was legal to buy it untill 2003 (I myself bought the stuff at a local GNC), but I don't get why the morality issue comes into play with the media now when it was condoned 10 years ago. It's not just the players fault. Everybody knew about steroids, just nobody cared.

Pete, I don't think he has HOF numbers. If he hadn't broken the HR record other then total Home Runs his numbers weren't HOF worthy. Now that he admits that he used steroids to get those numbers I don't think he belongs.

He's still a better guy?
That's why you vote people into the Hall of Fame? So would you vote for Mark over Barry Bonds
Besides that point, without ever using the steroids, do you think he would be good enough to get into the Hall of Fame?
I think that is a more important issue, though harder to judge, than whether or not he is "a better guy than a lot of guys who have been inducted."

Pete,
it's unrealistic, to think that professional athletes,do not take steroids, to help recover from physical exertions. it's also unrealistic to think that pitchers don't throw spiters,coaches don't steal signs
and guys under the basket don't hold push or shove.
all sports seasons last to long! look at the number of injured players and shortened careers.
would be better if roids were studied more and a true disclousre made of their effectivness.
roids are true miracle products and do wonders in healing injuries,shortening
recovery times and aiding mucle development. they don't make players run faster,jump higher or swing the bat quicker. those are the God given differences between athletes.

Stupid policy from The Sun. What's the point? Do other newspapers do this? (Notice I didn't ask if other major newspapers do this.) Seems incredibly pointless. How would they know if you did mail your ballot in? So, The Sun is helping to keep Blyleven out of the Hall.

Anyone who used steriods or other performance enhancers should not make the HOF.

To say it was not against MLB rules is not acceptable. They are illegal in the US. There is no MLB rule that says you are not allowed kill anyone. No need for it because it is agaist the law for anyone.

He also lied almost dailey about not using performance enhancers. He said he only used "Andro" which was legal. I was living in Columbia, MO in the summer of 98. He was in the papers and on TV everyday. I believed him because he was such a nice guy, very humble. I did not want to believe he was doping because I wanted to see
something unbelievable.

ARod, Clemons, Ortiz, Sosa, Manny R., Tejada, Bonds and the list goes on. No HOF for any of them. They all cheated. They all knew they were cheating when they were doing it. They all lied about using performance enhancers. They knew they were lying as the words spewed from their lips. They all were faced with the same question. Do the right thing and stay clean or do the thing I want to do in order to make more money and be more famous even though I know I will have to sneak, lie, cheat and break laws in order to accomplish. They all choose the latter.

birdfanman we'll disagree on it, however i see your points. Fact is, there are liars, cheaters, wife beaters, alcoholics, drug addicts, etc in the hall. If we guessed at each and threw every one out we thought did that, what would we have left. Fans will make the distinction. Like I implied earlier, I'm less than impressed with some of the hit totals from the early 1900's because of the size of the gloves and condition of the fields. McGwire disappointed many fans, probaby not as much as you as you lived it, but lying shouldn't keep him out and until we can figure out who was and who wasn't juicing in his era, neither should this admission.

With respect to the Sun's policy, I say "get real". It is not as if you are giving approval for a life altering medicine or have an economic interest in the outcome. We should all take sports ratings and ranking and give it some perspective. This is a mindless as "no cheering in the press box". Again it is just sports, lets stop making it more important and lets stop pretending that the highest of journalitic standards need apply.

sorry peter, his personality
does not get him into the hall..

the oldtimers like frank
robinson who played the game
the right way are seeing their
records passed by cheaters..

darn shame.... mays, clemente,
aaron,ruth, kaline, robinson
both brooks and frank they
are true hall of famers..

the steroid era, sorry they
were juiced and tainted..anything
they accomplished they cheated
to obtain... sorry no hof.....

"If [McGwire] hadn't broken the HR record other then total Home Runs his numbers weren't HOF worthy."

Jerry -

McGwire's career slugging percentage is .588, which is good for 9th All Time.

Of the Top 50 in slugging percentage, only five HOF eligible players didn't make it:

- Albert Belle - .563, 17th - It's a total joke that Jim Rice is in and Belle dropped off the ballot after his second year of eligibility. Last I checked, it was the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Really Good Players Who Were Nice to the Media.

- Dick Allen - .534, 43rd - He didn't accumulate the homers and rbi, but his OBP was 20 points higher than Rice's and his SLG was 30 points higher.

- Babe Herman - .532, T-46th - Didn't top 200 home runs or 1000 rbi, but played in the dead ball era. I could make an argument...

- Lefty O'Doul - .532, T-46th - Only 11 seasons. Only 113 homers.

- Ken Williams - .530, 47th - Another dead ball guy who didn't play for very long and didn't top 200 home runs or 1000 rbi. But hit 39 home runs and drove in 155 in 1922. Wow.

And here are the active or not yet eligible guys on the list (I'll put a * next to the likely HOFers):

- Albert Pujols*

- Barry Bonds* - It'll happen eventually. Maybe after he dies.

- Manny Ramirez*

- Ryan Howard - Too early to tell.

- Alex Rodriguez*

- Vlad Guerrero*

- Todd Helton* - He'll be the first Coors case.

- Larry Walker - Close...

- Juan Gonzalez* - Look at '92-'01: Averaged 36 hr, 116 rbi, .582 SLG, won two MVPs. Tough to argue that dominance.

- Jim Thome* - 564 career home runs. Averaged 41 hr, 111 rbi, .588 SLG from '96 to 04. Finished in the Top 7 in MVP voting four times in that span

- Lance Berkman - Maybe, if he puts up five or six more 25 hr, 100 rbi seasons. Those days might be over for Berkman though... Note: He's already got five Top 7 MVP finishes.

- Frank Thomas*

- Carlos Delgado - Nice stretch from '98 to '06, but I've never thought of him as dominant hitter. We'll see what the voters think of 500 home runs (assuming he gets there) when he's eligible in six or seven years.

- Matt Holliday - Too early...

- Mike Piazza*

- David Ortiz - I doubt voters will have a soft spot for his ridiculous '03 - '07: 42 hr, 128 rbi, .612 SLG, finished in Top 5 in MVP voting each year. Unless he has a big revival over the night five or six seasons, I doubt it.

- Mark Teixeira - Too early...

- Miguel Cabrera - Too early...

- Ken Griffey Jr.*

- Chipper Jones* - He'll retire as one of the best offensive third basemen in history.

- Jeff Bagwell - Might be the first true Astro in the Hall. Depends on what the voters think of OBP. Truly amazing from '94 to '00: .433 OBP, .593 SLG.

- Sammy Sosa* - Same with Bonds. It'll happen... Eventually...

So, all that to say that Mark McGwire was one of the best sluggers of all time.

Sorry for the book, everyone. HOF debates really get me going...

I don't think you're crazy Pete. Over that anyway.

This clip sums it up for me.

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/104236/?tag=Cheaters

In the late 60's, Willie Mays and pretty much all of his contemporaries popped greenies (amphetamines) to give themselves some extra pep and to improve their performance. There was no specific rule against it in baseball, but it was against the law.

In the 90's, Mark McGwire and a significant but undetermined percentage of his contemporaries used steroids and HGH to give themselves a better chance of recovering from injury and to improve their performance. There was no specific rule against it in baseball, but it was against the law.

Baseball players have been trying to gain an edge since 1875 when Charles Waitt wore a flesh-colored glove to try to hide it from his opponents. They've been inducted into the HOF by throwing illegal spitballs (Whitey Ford, Gaylord Perry, Don Sutton). They've won pennants by stealing signs (Bobby Thomson). They've corked their bats and made All-Star teams (Norm Cash, Albert Belle, Sammy Sosa).

Do people really believe that everything is cleared up now? Don't you think many steroid abusers have just moved to HGH, since they aren't testing for it? Once that's ruled out, won't they just move to the next undetectable edge?

I fail to understand why the steroids era has been branded this way while everyone else gets such a free pass. If you want to judge Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens as poor role models, that's fine. But in terms of HOF credentials, let's just judge them for what they did between the lines.

"Don't know what I'll do the next time I vote. I don't even know when that will be, since The Sun has a policy that does not allow its employees to vote for the major sports awards or participate in any Hall of Fame election. I am a qualified voter who receives a ballot every year and suspect I'll resume voting at some point during McGwire's period of eligibility, but I haven't digested this completely yet and I've got plenty of time to figure it out."

What are you implying? That the policy will end or that we will someday soon be without a Schmuck?

not brooks- do you have job?

Tony Larussa may have a law degree, but letting Mark Mcguire get anywhere near Albert Pujols has got to be one of the dumbest PR moves in the history of the game.

When he coached the A's, Larussa was too dumb to be suspicious when Jose Canseco came to Spring Training one year with an extra 50 lbs of muscle. He thought he was a gym rat.

He watched McGuire blow up like a cartoon character but wrote that off to good diet andf a strong excercise regimen. He still did not believe Mcguire cheated until today.

My guess is at the very least Pujols is shooting HGH. With Mcguire around maybe the reporters will start asking Albert some questions. After all, he was the 402nd pick in the 1999 draft and very few pro teams were interested in him at all.

Better Living through Chemistry

I think the issue of amphetamines is one that is still underestimated. Yes, they gave energy to play the game, but FWIW, amphetamines were used extensively in WWII by German and Japanese pilots, not just to stay awake on long missions, but because amphetamines counter-acted the blurry vision that comes with fatigue. Is there a more important aspect to hitting a baseball that vision? It is called hand-eye coordination for a reason.

How many pitchers were using? There is no way to confirm the 80% claim, but I suspect it's pretty accurate and that there was more competitive balance than the Roid-Haters care to admit.

ml

He cheated. He doesn't get in. I don't care if he cheated on his wife, got drunk every night, was a complete jerk to the media, beat his dog, never called his mother and was generally a pathetic excuse for a human being. But if you cheat by becoming a Frankenstein so that you can hit the ball farther than anyone else, you don't get in. Period.

James,

thanks for the link. That is hysterical...

At some point we need to draw the line and say "this is not acceptable." If everyone involved is just given a pass by the media and fans and society in general, the cycle of bad behavior will continue. If we make it clear that cheaters are not welcome (in baseball, in the HOF ect.) we have a better chance of ending this destructive pattern.

Mark McGwire is quoted as saying:
“I wish I had never touched steroids,” he said in the statement. “It was foolish and it was a mistake. I truly apologize. Looking back, I wish I had never played during the steroid era.”

I am glad that he came clean, and he is smart to recognize it personally and publicly as a mistake. It opens a door for him, perhaps. It is a reflection of character to admit a mistake, but this is not of the same character you would have hoped for- which would have been to not cave to the pressure and insecurity of taking an illegal substance, even as those around him were.

The ones with true integrity and character are the ones who never caved, who believed in themselves and worked hard, and left the rest to fate or to God. They are the ones who should be remembered in the HOF.

While Mark's truth telling now is welcome, it is a carefully managed truth telling. He knew what he was doing all along, and betting that steroids would enhance his career more than truth, legal behavior, or his own ability. At least he didn't lie to Congress.

apologies for multiple postings...couldn't tell it went thru...

Are you people crazy? Phony Mac- the worst fielder in A generation- who was cheating the day he entered the major leagues- supported for the HOF? Raise your hand if you believe his "timeline" as to when he was and wasn't taking steroids. If anyone thinks that Phony Mac just hada moment of clarity about his decades long cheating operation- then you migth be interested in some real estate I have to sell- on the moon. Phony Mac's injuries were caused by steroids- he was not using them to heal quickly as he woudl have us belive. He is lying now as he was then. Anyone gullible enough to belive him needs to take a minute before they right in support to the HOF of this world class hack. Support this serial liar and fielding disaster for the HOF...disgusting!!!

This guy doesn't know when to quit- he is quoted as saying he did it for "health reasons- not for gaining strength". He's the worst liar o nthe planet! And St. Louis is bringing him on board as a batting coach? His lifetime average was .263 and he struck out more times than Pee Wee Herman asking for dates outside a porno theater. This is Tony LaRussa trying to hustle this steroid blimp back to the Bigs. I hope the tumult is too much for the team and they cancel the invitation. Big Mac was a phony and a worse than average player in every regard besides his long pop ups. As far as is continuing stream of lies- he didn't do it for strength- yeah - right!- he hasn't learned his lesson. Hell no he is not in the HOF! Besides who cares about baseball anymore? It's 4 teams with billions battling for a championship we are forced to watch because there is no football.

Early in his career Mac was known as a pretty good slugger who struck out a lot and was constantly battling injuries. After juicing he got back his health and his home run production increased by 25-35 percent - entirely IMO a result of steroid use. Anyway, of his 1600 hits (a pretty low total for the HOF), more than a third were home runs. If you want to use the team leadership mantle to justify the HOF, Mac falls way short there too - when did he ever lead his team to a title? He was just a big guy who hit lots of home runs - nothing special and certainly not HOF worthy - end of debate!

"I did this for health purposes. There's no way I did this for any type of strength use."

McGuire isn't here to tell us the truth, just a different lie.

Can anyone explain why congress did not give the players immunity when they testified? What was the point in reserving the option to prosecute? It was not as if Sammy Sosa was working with Ollie North in the White House basement!

If Selig really wanted to send a message about Steriods and cheating - he will demand that Mac tell all about his usage, with pertinent details about everything, and I mean everything, and use it as a precondition of Mac's future employment by the Cards. If he refuses, then he is banned, plain and simple. Selig shouldn't let Mac get off that easy, and use this opportunity to get to the bottom of things.

Hey notbrooks;

You neglect to mention that McGwire's numbers during the years he at least admits to using (and who really knows for how long he was or wasn't?) are tremendously spiked upwards. He hit almost twice the amount of HR, his avg. was about 30 points higher.

He also said he was about ready to retire in 1996, but thanks to using some illegal things he was able to get his body back on the field for a few more years that otherwise he may never have played.

I am not singling him out either, Bonds could have been one of the best players in baseball ever without the junk, but he wanted his name up there with the sluggers so he went crazy and got all big and huge to jack the HR's out.

Nobody from the suspected "steroid era" whether they've come clean or not should get into the HOF. Sorry to the clean guys, if there were any, but maybe that will push them to want to out the cheaters a bit more and get the sport actually cleaned up for once.

I always felt there is another part of the story that's under-represented. The Press; they knew what was going on and rather than print the truth, it was Cover Shot's with grinning faces. Can I ask....would the "truth" have sold less than the "hype"?

The Press never said a word. In fact, the word the Press were using is "unbelievable". How funny that now, after using the man's enhanced-performance for glory, it is the same Press that gets to determine his fate in the Hall.

Mac used an illegal substance to enhance his performance. But, HE still had to do the work. He didn't just stick something in his butt and wake up the next day "jacked"; he still lifted every pound of weight, he still ran every inch of ground, he still practiced and conditioned like any other athlete.

This is not the Hall Of Public Integrity (something that ought to be made. No, Seriously) it's a Baseball hall of fame. It's the guys who were Awesome compared to peers. Mac is "partially" a creation of the very people who would snub him now...what's worse, the cheater or the enabler.

I'll leave the #'s talk to others with more knowledge, but cautionary tales are legend too and serve a purpose.

the one's truly robbed are the players that didn't do such things...they too deserve induction. A kinda of Shrine of Honor...or Headstone of Integrity.

.............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Paulie, we have something in this country called libel laws. Since there was no testing at that time, the PRESS, as you call it, was powerless to expose steroid abuse. The questions were asked every day. I was there. But the players kept that secret for a long time and there was no way to prove what anybody was doing. It's been five years since the Justice Dept started to try and pin something on Barry Bonds and it still hasn't happened, but the PRESS should have been able to 10 years ago? Sorry, facts are inconvenient things.

"I did this for health purposes. There's no way I did this for any type of strength use."

McGuire isn't here to tell us the truth, just a different lie."

Good point, and I guess he just ignored all of the long term health risks associated with steroid and HGH use? Organ problems, joints breaking down, heart issues and such?

What are we teaching the youngsters? Okay, well it is okay to use the stuff to get back on the field and help your team, stay quiet about it until you know for sure you can't get in trouble for it or hoping people might forget about it altogether, then when you can't get in trouble for it you can apologize and all is forgiven. You still made your millions right?

McG' was and is a nice guy. Good to see him come clean and admit that his church going ways contributed to his home run binge with sammy. That year, they both had better connections than the average ball player...at the crossroads!

It offends me to read what Roger Maris went through and to see McGwire 'celebrated' during his record breaking season.

Does anyone here think that this confession would have been made if he wasn't coming back to baseball?
He's had the last few years to consider his steroid use, and even watch a few still in the game admit to it. He watched the Clemens saga. Yet he stood on the sidelines and said nothing.
The point was made here that no one goes untouched in this scandal- from the owners to the locker room attendants.
I thought Tim Brown said it best. To Mac's quote about wishing he'd never played in the steroid era, Brown says he was the steroid era. I guess Bonds and Sosa are the most prominent still left standing...

Ah, Big Mac isn't getting into the Hall. He'll get maybe an extra 5% of the vote. However, I do see hope for Blylheven and Alomar though.

Pete,

You have a knack for getting people really going. A lot of good points on both sides. My side, no HOF for McGwire. He just was not that good by comparison to others in there, steroids unrelated.

MANY DIFFERENT ERA's.....

The Hall should simply have a sign at the entrance stating that there have been many different era's during baseballs history.

After all, the steroid era is just one of many.....

For example, how many African American players are NOT in the Hall because they were not allowed to compete? AND how different would the record books look if players in that era played against/with African American ball players?

To me, that era in MLB is a far bigger disgrace than the steroid era.

Regardless, have the Hall simply list the different era's, allowing for the public to make their own judgements.

Mac should be in based on his stats. History can then determine how he matches up against whichever era.

I was gonna let the video do the talking for me, but I will kind of chime in.

I think his excuse is a farce. To get that much bigger and to suddenly hit that many HR's, he'd be the only man in the world who thought the two weren't related. If he was ever concerned, he'd have stopped and just retired like his body told him he should. He hid behind lawyers, but for what? If he felt justified at the time, then say so. He hid because he knew.

Also, if he was sorry, he'd volunteer to give up the stats from the juiced years or pre-emptively announce he'd never accept a nod to the HOF because he knew he cheated.

McGwire went beyond rehabbing an injury. I don't have as much an issue with a Roberts, Petite, or A-Rod even. Whatever they took basically maintained what they were doing on their own before, if that. It's like pass interference or holding. Almost everyone does it, every play of every game, just like some say almost everyone was using in the era. The ones that get penalized are the ones who are aggregious and gained a clear competitive advantage. To me, that's guys like McGwire, Sosa, Giambi, Bonds and Clemens.

not brooks mentioned Cal, but his stats never scream statistical advantage (painstakingly true some years). Guys can take legal things like cortizone to play through pain and there's no reason to think he didn't stick to things like that. He didn't suddenly put up 50 HR's. He was a grinder with a different stance a week. If he used, he needs a refund.

Anyway, there's a short list of guys who completely ruined the game. They're the guys who broke the code if there was a steroid code then. If you took out the guys I mentioned, there may not have ever been the massive witch hunt for why they were putting up those numbers. They're the guy who breaks the vow to never tell anyone what happens at a bachelor party. Suddenly every guy who went is waiting for the moment when they have to fess up before their wife is next to find out.

{sigh} I don't get the "There are some dirt bags in the Hall; what's a few more" attitude.

I personally think he's borderline just on his numbers -- the missed games, the average average, etc. His one claim to fame was based on a lie.

He cheated.

At least Dave Kingman was Mr. One Dimensional legally.

Maybe if guys like Clemens, Bonds, Palmeiro, Canseco, and McGwire are kept out of the Hall of Fame, it will send a proper message to anyone smart enough to listen. And just because you can't catch all of them, there's no reason to include known cheaters. Or even obviously suspected cheaters.

Isn't the whole purpose of having a vote is to be judgemental?

Judge: waspman, were you going 100 MPH in a 35 zone?

waspman: You betcha. But I just want to apologize to everyone I can think of that I drove in the speed limit era.

Judge: That's okay. After years of post-poning the case, you decided to come clean. I've seen worse people on the street. You're free to go.

... in a pig's eye ...

James C

I don't buy for a second that Roberts, Petite, and A-Rod were just rehabing injuries. I remember seeing a photo of Roberts before he got hurt. He had a set of biceps that would have made Canseco proud.

waspman-
It's off subject, but I think Rob Deer was Mr. One Dimensional, Jr. legally.

don't care.

You are talking about a guy who didn't display excellence throughout his whole career. This is a ballplayer who hit .235 or less four different seasons,in one of them he hit .201, and in his last year he hit .187 in 364 AB's. Additionally, he used juice to inflate his home run performance. In his last two seasons all he could do was hit home runs, as he had only 12 doubles but hit 61 home runs. Schmucker, with those credentials you think he should go into the Hall of Fame? If so, then you sports writers are lowering your standards. Next thing you know you will be trying to find a way to justify putting Sidney Ponson into the Hall. Without the impact of the juice, there is no way that McQwire merits a spot in the H of F.

To me, HoF should be determined by comparing a player who is eligible against their own era. Comparing players now to the 1950's, 40's, and so on to me makes as much sense as saying "well the 2010 Ravens can beat Lombardi's Packers." You just can't determine that. Big Mac played in the steriod era and that's a fact. Getting in should be determined against how he played to comparable players and if the voters can say he stood out amongst the rest. If you can prove that even without ILLEGAL substances Big Mac would have still put up HoF worthy numbers then let him in. But to me it sounds like his best years were juiced and I don't see how you can say that is HoF worthy. We have to get past the whole "well this guy is in and he probably did it so he should be in too" arguement. Lets start from scratch and let each player's numbers stand on his own and lets see how much a factor steriods played into the performance. Just admiting to using it isn't worthy to get in.

The Players Union played a major role in enabling the steroid era, by shielding the players from meaningful drug testing for many years.

As a result of the players intransigence and denial, they were able to contnue to cheat and reap huge contracts, altering the salary structure of baseball to the now ridiculous levels.

The fans have been enablers, welcoming back players like Manny Rameirez after his 50 game suspension, and denying that thier own favorites like Mcguire and Bonds were cheating.

There was no outcry until Canseco's book was written. As far back as 1988, Thomas Boswell of the Washington Post accused Canseco of using steroids, but very few other members of the press wanted to go there. They were finally dragged kicking and screaming by the revelations in the book and the Balco scnandal.

It was sort of don't ask and don't tell era for most members of the press, Major Laeague Baseball and the fans.

Ross Perot once likened the Federal deficit to the crazy Aunt in the Attic. He said "Everybody knows she's up there, but nobody wants to talk about it."

As we sow so shall we reap. As far as the Steroid era is concerned, we have met the enemy. And it is us.

"comes clean"?

He now says he only did it for health purposes, to help recover from injuries. Riiiiight!

Not to mention how self-serving the timing of all this is, as he wants to get back into baseball.

From what was reported on MLB Radio (XM), he called his family, former coaches, the commissioner, Mrs. Maris, and the father of a young man who's suicide was linked to steroid use to admit his use and apologize. If that's true, he certainly didn't let himself off easy. I think we learned a little bit about Mark McGwire the man yesterday. In comparison to that, does the hall of fame really matter?

For those who base McGwire's credentials off, ahem... batting average, a player who goes by Mr. October had the same career BA had just as many bad seasons. In other words, it's meaningless.

Wayne -
Extremely good points.
I'm interested in how the voters will treat Barry Bonds. Many agree that he would have been a HOFer without the steriods.

flip,

Fair enough. I guess I never really looked that closely. I just mean he didn't go Brady Anderson all of a sudden.

Pete,

I heard you on WTOP this morning. Where was the shameless plug when we needed it? Great job (much better than the DC guy they had on later) and very diplomatic about Tribune supressing your voting rights. I'm sure it's a battle for another day, but a company founded on civil liberties taking away your right to vote is highly hypocritical I'd say.

We all suspected Big Mac was cheating. Lets stop rehashing all of this steriod stuff and get on with the important stuff. When are the Orioles going to sign a power hitting first baseman and another free agent pitcher?

testing testing

James C

The pic I saw of Roberts was spring training 05 which was before his injury. He was wearing a sleeveless tshirt and my eyes almost popped out when I got a look at his arms. He looked like popeye. It said roids to me.

Gil -

Your're right, everyone is guilty. From MLB, to the writers, to college baseball, to even high school baseball. I went to high school in the late-'90's and the term "bigger, stronger, faster" was the name of a lot of programs. As a 15 year old freshman in the winter of '96, I began taking Creatine. My senior year in '99, I tried Androstendione. The coaches knew about it and they even praised those who were improving physically because of it. The coaches said, "Make sure you stay hydrated", which was the only piece information we got.

Once kids started passing out on the field and/or dieing did anyone become concerned. And let me just say, I have no problem with Creatine, but Andro is no joke. You have to take it in "stacks" or "pyrimids" and it boosts your testostorone level by 300%. It was sold at GNC untill 2003 before it was outlawed. I took it again for 6 months (when I was in in the Army in '03 after I got back from Iraq). Now at 28 years old, the lasting effect it gave me was chronic severe hypertension. So much for the short term. It was ignorant times.

wayne -

This is a big moment. For once, I completely agree with you.

Let me step back and take this in...

Okay, I'm back.

"If you want to use the team leadership mantle to justify the HOF, Mac falls way short there too - when did he ever lead his team to a title?"

Eric -

McGwire was a huge part of the A's teams of the late 80's and early 90's. You know, the team that played in three consecutive World Series and won it all in 1989?

"McGwire went beyond rehabbing an injury. I don't have as much an issue with a Roberts, Petite, or A-Rod even."

James -

This is one of things that really gets to me about the PED argument. Roberts, Pettitte and Rodriguez come out and say, "Oh, I was just using it to rehab an injury", and we automatically believe them. But Pettitte played for, what, 10 years before his admission? How do we know he wasn't using that whole time? Same with A-Rod. Same with Roberts, the 5'9", 170 pound guy who did "go all Brady Anderson" when he transformed from a .360 slugger to a .450 slugger without raising an eyebrow. Roberts hit four home runs in 641 at bats in 2004 and then hit 18 in 561 at bats in 2005. He's hit fewer than 10 just once (9 in 2008) since then.

"not brooks mentioned Cal, but his stats never scream statistical advantage (painstakingly true some years) ... If he used, he needs a refund."

I did mention Cal, but I didn't say he was using anabolic steroids. You're right that it was painfully obvious in some seasons that he wasn't. But anabolic steroids aren't the only substances that can help a player's performance. Perhaps Cal used amphetamines to get himself ready for those games that he just didn't want to play.

We crucify Barry Bonds for demolishing baseball's most sacred records but we don't even question Cal for demolishing the record that was probably the most difficult to break.

1) You can't really give someone credit for a "sincere" admission when it was clearly in his interests. McGuire didn't lose or risk anything yesterday, in which case it would have been more respectable. What he did yesterday was completely out of self-interest- since it may have nominally improved his chances of getting into the HoF while also clearing a messy cloud of questions that would have been a distraction to his new job with the Cardinals.

2) Your southern California "live and let live" philosophy is admirable, but I for one would ask you to hold Hall of Fame candidates to a higher standard than you hold (or choose not to hold) people to in everyday life. It's great to say "hey I'm not perfect, and he's a good guy, and let's all get together and drink a Coke and hold hands" but as a voter you are charge with selecting an elite few whose performance is beyond criticism and who represent the sport well. They need not be perfect in their private lives, but if their biggest career accomplishments were a farce, based on deliberate and continuous cheating, then they have no place in the sport whatsoever, much less the Hall of Fame.

Don't take your responsibility as a voter lightly, and remember that you are representing the fans in this task. Why do you think sportswriters were given this privilege, instead of players, managers, baseball experts, or anyone else? I would argue it is because sportswriters are seen to be an accurate barometer of fan sentiment. Don't let your personal life philosophies cloud your judgment to the point where you lose sight of what this responsibility, and why you were granted it, are all about.

Oh, that 12:14 PM Anonymous post was me.

I've said this before, but as Ronald Reagan would say, Here I go again...If McGwire or any player took steroids before they were branded as illegal, then he hasn't done anything wrong. A person cheats when they do something that violates the rules. If there is no rule about it, then it isn't cheating. If, however, he took steroids AFTER these were banned, yes, he cheated, and should be censured accordingly. Otherwise, we should retroactively kick out all those Hall of Famers who got in during an era when things like throwing spit/scuffballs were legal. Of course, we don't do that because to throw a spitter was NOT illegal in that era. Throw one now, you get in trouble. Same thing here. Used steroids before the ban, wasn't illegal. After, illegal. End of line.

..............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Sorry Max, you're logic is completely void. Steroids were illegal in every state at that time and the baseball rules require players to act according to the law. Ergo, they were illegal in baseball.

Pete - correct me if I'm wrong but I thought steroids were illegal during the time McGwire took them and they were also against MLB rules - even though they weren't testing for them. Just because they weren't testing for them doesn't mean they weren't against the rules, not to mention the illegal part.

If I'm correct, please mention that to your readers so I don't have to read yet another person's comment about how "it wasn't against the rules" back during that era.

At my work, it is against the employee rules to use heroin - they don't test me for it - but it's against the rules.

Finally, just because he is a good guy is no reason to turn your vote in favor of him. That's my biggest complaint about writers having a vote - whether he's a nice guy or not doesn't matter. Who's to say he would not have had 25 fewer hits per season (maybe not scorching it through the infield or in an outfield gap and instead being fielded by an opposing player) or 10-15 fewer home runs per year that would have been caught near the warning track? His numbers are tainted, period. Sadly, he couldn't even admit that last night in his interview with Costas.

..............................................................................................
Pete's reply: You are correct, steroids were illegal in every state during that period, so the people who say there were no specific rules against them in baseball are just rationalizing. There is no mention of murder being illegal in the Baseball Rule Book either, but I think that will keep you out of the Hall of Fame. As for whether the writers should vote or not, who would you have vote instead?

Andrew -

If you had a Hall of Fame vote, would you vote for Frank Thomas? Ken Griffey, Jr? Greg Maddux? John Smoltz? Randy Johnson? Trevor Hoffman? Mike Piazza? Craig Biggio? Pedro Martinez? Those guys all played in the Steroid Era. How do we know they were clean? (I like to think that they are, but, realistically, there's no way to be sure.)

And what if Jose Canseco's claim is accurate, and 80% of MLB players were using PEDs from the late 80's to the early 00's? If that's true (and most of what Canseco has claimed has been true), how did McGwire have any sort of edge of almost everyone else was doing exactly the same thing?

As wayne said, history can determine how McGwire matches up against whichever era. Against the era in which he played, the Steroid Era, McGwire was the best power hitter in the game.

Side note: I've seen a few comments about McGwire's hit total, and my response to that is a big "Who cares!?".

McGwire was a power hitter. He hit 583 home runs in 6187 at bats. That's one home run every 10.6 at bats people, best in the history of the game. Better than Babe Ruth. Better than Barry Bonds. Better than Hank Aaron, who isn't even in the Top 25.

Saying that McGwire should be a Hall of Famer because he's only got 1600 hits is like saying Mariano Rivera shouldn't be a Hall of Famer because he only has 71 wins.

1971 MLB rules indicated that players were to comply with federal and state laws concerning drug use. In 1988 steroids became illegal to possess and/or distribute. In 1991, MLB said that the use of illegal substances, including steroids, was against its rules. It reiterrated that in 1997. So enough with the "it wasn't against the rules then".

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1151761/index.htm

not brooks

"And what if Jose Canseco's claim is accurate, and 80% of MLB players were using PEDs from the late 80's to the early 00's?"

I hope you don't think PED use stopped or even greatly slowed in the early 00's. Anyone who watches the Olympics, Tour de France etc, knows that it goes on all the time despite some pretty rigorous testing.

The problem is that the athletes can afford some pretty high priced medical people who have the latest in masking agents so they can stay one step ahead of the testers.

You're right, flip.

And, unless I'm mistaken, either MLB just doesn't do it or there's currently no way to test for HGH.

Use of PEDs is more than likely still pretty rampant in every professional sport. But, judging from the way the game has changed over the past few years (more emphasis on defense, loads of young stud pitchers, most of the best players in the game are 32 or younger, zero 60 home run seasons since 2001) I would guess that it's not nearly as bad as it used to be in baseball.

Guru76, great recall. That's a name I hadn't thought about in a good while.

dave in glen burnie, you make a good point ... except I counter with:

(1) Mr. October was a team leader; Mr. Come-Clean was not.

(2) Most of Mr. October's down years were after the age of 37; Mr. For-Health-Reasons -- not. (Do you think steroids may have played a part in a 67 point jump in BA followed with another 65 point jump?)

(3) Mr. October had a HR per 15.6 AB's and a .278 BA in the post-season; Mr. Victim-Of-The-Steroid-Era was one per 25.8 and a Buddy Biancalana-like .217.

(4) Mr. October was clean; Mr. Congressional-Hard-Of-Hearing was not.

waspman -

On Point 1: Where did you come up with the notion that Reggie Jackson was a team leader? He was one of the most selfish players in the history of the game. Mr. "Straw Who Stirs the Drink" was a team leader? Sir "Magnitude of Me" was a team leader? Seriously? Reggie Jackson was a damn good player and one of the best "clutch" hitters of all time, but he played for himself and himself alone.

More on Point 1: Mark McGwire wasn't a vocal leader, but he was always more than willing to offer hitting advice to young players. You think Reggie Jackson did that?

On Point 4: How can you be sure that Reggie was clean? How can you be sure that he wasn't popping amphetamines or using some early steroids? There was no testing when Reggie played, just as there was no testing when Mac played. Unless the player admits it or he tests positive (post 2002, of course), we'll never know who used and who didn't.

I don't really care about the hall of fame that much, but I do care about fairness and consistency. If McGwire is out, that is fine. But then Bonds, Pettite, Manny, A-Rod, and anyone else who used had better be out as well.

Roger Marris has had his record bested by a group of cheaters who used a drug that allows them to gain muscle much much faster than they could otherwise.
Now you, a career sportswriter have to ask us why it is crazy to support this cheat for the Hall of Fame?
Incredible.

Babe Ruth had his record bested by a guy who got to play more games in a league diluted by expansion.

There's an argument for every era.

Of course, Ruth hit all of his home runs against a segregated league.

There's an argument for every era.

Of course, Ruth hit all of his home runs against a segregated league.

There's an argument for every era.

Posted by: not brooks | January 12, 2010 3:17 PM

And Hank got to hit his before the Asian players arrived.

Roger Marris has had his record bested by a group of cheaters who used a drug that allows them to gain muscle much much faster than they could otherwise.
Now you, a career sportswriter have to ask us why it is crazy to support this cheat for the Hall of Fame?
Incredible.

Posted by: Roy | January 12, 2010 2:57 PM

Roy - is it your position that there are currently no cheaters in the hall of fame?

Of course, Hank hit his home runs against the dominant pitching of the 60's and early 70's while playing in gigantic stadiums.

There's an argument for every era.

Of course, maybe the pitching in the 60's and early 70's was only dominant because of the gigantic stadiums and ridiculously high mounds.

There's an argument for every era...

Of course, Hank hit his home runs against the dominant pitching of the 60's and early 70's while playing in gigantic stadiums.

There's an argument for every era.

Posted by: not brooks | January 12, 2010 3:53 PM

Go sell it somewhere else dude. Those pitchers in the 60s and 70s were throwing live balls and Hank played at Fulton County (known as "the launching pad") and Milwaukee County, which was even smaller. LOTS of cheap homers.

Mike H -

I'll be the first to argue that Hank Aaron wasn't even close to the best home run hitter in the history of the game.

Sure, he hit more home runs than anyone before him, and only one guy has topped him since, but old Hammerin' Hank played in 23 seasons and had well over 12,000 at bats. His numbers were much more about longevity than sheer dominance.

Case in point: Aaron is 26th on the All Time Slugging % list.

Great player, of course. Probably the best power hitter of his generation. But not even close to the best power hitter of all time.

The thing that sets Mac apart, to me, is I don't feel like he insulted our intelligence.

He wasn't ready to admit what he'd done, so he retreated from the public eye until he was ready. Unlike other players, who maintain their public personas and point their fingers or swear up and down they never touched the stuff.

And though he said he did it for his health, he didn't make any excuses or say it was just for a limited time, etc.

Why is it we demand a guy (like McGwire or ARod) come clean, and when he does we find all the things wrong with his confession? It's ridiculous.

As for Ripken, Ryan and Molitor and others...I'll bet there are a ton of "Cansecos" out there who would just love to out someone like that, especially Ryan (a noted workhorse and old school guy) and Ripken (the streak). The fact that there hasn't been a hint of an allegation of a rumour about them tells me they didn't cheat.

Christopher -

You might be right about Ripken, Ryan and Molitor.

The only reason I pointed those three out is because that's what baseball has become. Up until 2002, when drug testing started, everything was a secret. Even now, with things like that 103 name list, things are still kept in secret.

The fact of the matter is that until we see the release of test results, we have no idea who was using and who wasn't. And even if we do eventually get to see those results, we won't have a full picture of what was happening.

Oh, and just because you've never heard an accusation, that doesn't mean that the guy is innocent...

A few examples for everyone to chew on:

Jason Kendall
Pre 2002: .805 OPS
2002 - Present: .702 OPS

Brian Giles
Pre 2002: .969 OPS
2002 - Present: .860 OPS

Anyone ever hear those two names in the PED discussion?

Not taking anything away from Hank. Incredible player. What a great age that was for outfielders. Hank, Willie, Mickey, Duke, Frank...

Not Brooks,
To answer your question, if I were a HoF voter I would not vote for any player for whom reasonable evidence exists that they used steroids at any point in their careers. If you're looking for a legal threshold I would go with the simple civil "preponderance of the evidence" threshold. That is, I wouldn't necessarily condemn someone based on isolated heresay (e.g., if Canseco said they used), but I wouldn't require the criminal "beyond a reasonable doubt" threshold either (this is so strict because in those cases you're talking about taking someone's freedom away, which is a lot more serious than HOF admission). A-Rod, Bonds, Clemens, McGuire ALL would be eliminated from HoF consideration, if I were in charge.

I believe this is a fair threshold and not nearly as subjective as opponents would argue. We have an entire system of legal justice that has run for hundreds of years based on this threshold, so it's not like I'm pulling it out of the air.

Andrew -

Are your thoughts the same on Pettitte and Roberts? Not that either of them are future Hall of Famers, I'm just wondering how you feel about the "I only used to come back from injury" crowd.

Hey Pete its kinda funny that mcsteroid a notted cheater liar and a judas. Decides to at last to be honest about his steroid use somebody ought to ask him this question. Did you introduce Jason Giambi to the juice . Also to anyone who thinks that mcsteroid is a hall of famer needs to have the facts presented to them. a 263 avg 1626 hits 1414 rbis so if we deducted 20% of his stats for drug use he would have had about 450 hrs not 583 . other than homers his stats are similar to former oriole great and 1970 mvp Boog Powell 1776 hits 339 hrs 1187 rbis 266 avg. But pete heres a few worthy hall of fame canidates who were not cheaters Harold Baines 2866 hits 384 hr 1628 rbi 289 avg , Dave parker 2712 hits 1493 339hr 290 avg, What about former head case joey belle 1726 hits 381 hrs 1239 rbi 295avg . At least guys Bonds and Clemens were jerks all the time not like mcsteroid who you said was decent guy at first until he went to st louis.Pete i dont know if you have a hall of fame vote but at least consider players like Harold Baines and Dave Parker, And a good guy and cancer survivor Andres Gallaragga who didnt get 5% to stay on the ballot while mcsteroid gets 25% every year Hes not worthy of being in the hall of fame other than homers but they were inflated like his biceps not real sorry big mac. you are not a hall of famer good grief shoeless joe jackson and pete rose should be in before him.

Maris was on the juice when he broke the record. He lost blotches of his hair [ said it was caused by nerves ] BULL - Only me and his wife know for sure. Steroids came on the scene in the 30's.

waspman -

I wasn't talking about steriods. I was referring to people trying to judge his career by batting average, which by several comparisons is stupid.

Either way he'll be branded a liar and cheater by most. Whether you believe he started using steriods the first half of career or the second half, it doesn't matter. His testimonals mean nothing unless he says he used steroids his whole career, which is what people want to hear. I don't know what's true, all I know is it's no surprise he used steriods certain points in his career. Or at least that's what I believe. I don't know the man so I can't say.

Same thing goes for Brian Roberts. When he hit 12 home runs the first 2 months in the '05 season, everyone goes "oh, it's the steriods!". So what happened to the rest of the year? I called it a "hot streak", but like I said, people will believe whatever they want and most thrive on the negitive. Remember Wade Boggs season in '87? Look it up. It's not impossible for a good player to uncharacteristicly have a season in which they hit more HR's then usuall. And 18 HR's in 140 games doesn't exactly speak loud enough for me. Now, Brady Anderson on the other hand.....

dave -

Wade Boggs' power surge lasted for one season.

Brian Roberts had a lifetime SLG% of .360 prior to the 2005 season. From 2005 to today, he's got a .451 SLG%.

I'm not saying he's definitely using PEDs, but when a guy has a big upgrade in power that's both sudden and lasting and he admits to using steroids, what are we, as fans, supposed to believe?

Not Pettitte, Roberts, Palmiero. It is impossible to precisely assess the impact of the drugs on their performance (i.e., all the ridiculous conversations around how much steroids actually helped Bonds) and in most cases it's hard to determine how long they used for, so let's just keep it simple and say "if there's evidence they used performance-enhancing drugs at any point in their career, they will be subject to the league's standard punishment if still playing and removed from consideration for HoF.

There are a few underlying arguments for this that are worth unpacking. First, players use steroids and other drugs because they perceive the benefit to outweigh the risk. The benefit is big contracts, fame and prestige, etc. The risk can be defined as the chance they get caught multiplied by the penalty if they are caught.

What I believe drove the steroid era, from a behavioral economics perspective, is that using some simple form of this equation in their heads most players calculated that the perceived benefit far outweighed the risk (chance of detection multiplied by the penalty). The chance of being caught was low and there wasn't any clear penalty even if they were.

If the league is to affect players' behavior, they need to change this equation to yield a negative expected value. The benefit is more or less constant, and while the chance of detection has increased in proportion with the rigor league-wide testing, as players and doctors get more sophisticated and new drugs emerge it will only get easier to avoid detection.

Thus, the only real lever to pull, if we are truly interested in a level playing field and athletes that aren't causing harm to themselves and the millions of young people who look up for them, is the penalty variable. I would argue that only with a severe and consistent penalty will players really stay off performance enhancing drugs. This should include extending mandatory suspensions (did Manny really seem to be hurt by his 50-day "vacation" last year?), eliminating players from consideration for awards and honors (including Hall of Fame consideration), other penalties (fines, etc), and even "shaming" by the league, press, and public. This last one may seem soft, but compare the treatment of Pete Rose with that of A-Rod. One was persona non grata, humiliated and excommunicated from the sport he loved; the other "suffered" a brief apology and then sportswriters all agreed to say we should move on. Which do you think had the most impact on young players? I would argue the average high schooler familiar with both situations would stay well away from gambling but not be as leery of steroids.

This is part of the reason I am so opposed to writers like Pete who say "oh well, let's just move on. Gee McGuire seems like a nice enough guy so I'll probably vote for him." First, I don't think this is nearly enough punishment for someone who knowingly and deliberately denigrated the integrity of the sport, cheating for years and years. Second, such a response only reduces future players' expected penalty, thus directly increasing the incidence of future use of PEDs and other methods of cheating.

Not Brooks -

Prior to 2005, he had only one season with more then 500 AB's. '04 was really his first full season as a starter. From '01-'03 he was in between the ML's and AAA playing shortstop and also as Jerry Hairston's backup.

I won't argue that '05 MIGHT have been due to steriods. But he's been pretty consistent since then too. Also, wouldn't you think his doubles would have more to do with his slg % then anything else?

If the pitchers were on the stuff too doesn't it all balance out in the end? I only made you hit the ball farther, not hit it more. If it was still legal during most if not all his carrier how is it any different than a player wearing glasses?

McGwire actually believes that the steroids did not help his home run total. I suppose that those totals did not enhance the money he received as compensation either. The guys are all frauds! They did it because of the big pot of gold. The don't know what pressure is. Try living from paycheck to paycheck, doing real work.

Andrew -- Right on! Convinced me. (would you agree that Lance Armstrong is clearly a cheat?)

Kevin -- also, totally on.

BIGGEST SHOCKER.

Gil -- well said.

time check: 34 days till Pitchers and Catchers?

McGwire was a cheater. He should NOT be in the HOF. Subtract the steroids-aided homers and his numbers do not justify the HOF (wIthout the additional homers from cheating, his slugging percentage goes down, too).

Bonds and Clemens shouldn't get into the HOF, also, because of their cheating. Which is a shame because, based on their numbers prior to their steroid use, they probably would have had good enough careers to enter the HOF without the steroids. McGwire, not so much...

His "apology" is just an attempt to try to reduce the amount of people protesting him being the hitting coach for the Cardinals. He used steroids only to recover from injuries and they didn't improve his performance? Give me a friggin' break! You're a heckuva example for young ballplayers, "Coach"!

Cheaters should have all their stats erased. No asterisks, etc. Mark McGwire's MLB career should be summed up by stating how long he played, who he played for and that he is an admitted cheater. Zero stats and zero All Star Games, zero records...period. He has tried to turn himself into a victim. He is not a victim and he is lying to himself (and us) if he wants us to believe he only took steroids for "health reasons." He took steroids as a professional athlete and gained an unfair advantage over his peers (and those who came before him). Pro cyclists get 2 year ban for positives and face a likely lifetime band for 2d positive. Make the rules clear and severely punish cheaters. Pete Rose comes off looking like an amateur compared how these guys disgraced baseball's legacy...and he is banned for life!!!! I forgive him as a fan, but he is a cheater and should pay a stiff price.

not brooks, yes, The Straw that Stirred October (and it should have been doing that stirring in Charm City) was selfish, but he was also a team leader. He evoked the loudest boo's as a visiting ball player in all cities but the truth is his fellow players in OAK and NY rallied around him in every sense. (CAL, not so much)

But if you want to keep selfishness and team leader as being separate, I won't belabor the point.

However, Reg-gie has never been linked or has any evidence against him with regards to anything illegal. None.

McGwire is a very different story with or without his admissions -- even to andro.

dave in glen burnie, McGwire isn't being branded a liar and a cheater. He IS a liar and a cheater (more the latter if it matters).

The batting average is there for all to see. For a player of his type, I think it is indicative of the entire on-field product. We disagree. That's fine.

What he admits to or doesn't admit to is irrelevant to me. Frankly, I'd prefer he remained as a recluse. The whole tell-all as he gets his annual 23% even seems suspicious by its timing.

Whatever, in the end it comes down to what I believe for my opinion. McGwire's admissions have no more legs to it than Pete Rose's denials.

I believe McGwire used steroids to cheat, and he used them to a significant extent. His HR record lasted only long enough for another cheater to elbow his way into the record books. Bonds can have his record.

I'm willing to let Shoeless Joe Jackson into the Hall. McGwire, Rose, Bonds, et al can wait until they are dead, too.

David Cone beat off in the bullpen?????

That's the most shocking news I've received this week.

Notbrooks -
Babe Herman, Lefty O'Doul, and Ken Williams did not play in the dead ball era. All of them played in a very strong offensive era. Herman, for example, hit .393 with a .678 slugging average, and neither led the league. O'Doul only played 970 games - little more than six seasons.