Pete:

I'm not hopeful about signing Matt Holliday either, although I would love it if they did and ended up with a an I-told-you-so or two coming my way from not brooks and others. Nothing could make me feel better.

Pete,

I'll bet Andy Macphail occasionally reads the musings of your followers and literally falls out of his chair laughing.

He probably became absolutley hysterical with tears running down his cheeks after reading Non Brooks suggestion about Matt Holliday....

"Matt..AHA AHA HA HA..Holliday? "Snort"..AHA HA HA HA..HA HA...AHA AHA HA".."sniff".

It will remain quiet, accept for 'filler' deals. That's what the Orioles do Pete. And it's not negative saying such!

If AM doesn't spend on a couple proven productive players, he will have lied about his intentions going into 2010.

I hope Brooksie's wish comes true. You know, he knows, everyone knows however, it won't!

It keeps being said over and over and over again how Conservative AM is. He's just what the Angelos family wants however...always keeping the fans attention on the years ahead...... You know that's true Pete!

As for your Ravens blogs? Your updates are great! Fans may be mad at the Ravens for losing Sunday but deep down, they're so excited, as their NFL team is playing meaningful games, right down to the end.

That's all anyone has asked from the Orioles - for over a decade!

Yeah Andy, please sign Holliday to a high-priced contract we will regret in 18 months! If only we had Derek Lowe right now...

Hysterical Gil...... and so true!

Hey Pete,

Serious question: has there been thought of possibly signing holliday, putting him in left, and putting reimold at first? Or even just a thought of reimold at first in general? Just wondering...

Rather than Holiday, why not give more consideration to a trade for San Diego's Gonalez. We could put together a package that included David Herandez, Felix Pie or Rheimhold, and another young pitcher that might prove attractive to San Diego without disrupting the build from within plan. And he would be a lot cheaper initially than Holliday!

I just heard the rest of AM's plan:

TMZ has reported a short, gray haired man identified in the video only as Jimmy H, has sent in DVD for Clean House's Search for the Messiest Home in the Country Part 4. The DVD includes clips from the warehouse in which team officials flipped a coin on whether to get Matt Holliday or Carlos Delgado plus a lengthy discussion to sign an entire Japanese team to make their pitcher feel more comfortable. Neicy Nash and the gang will give the team a Clean House makeover from ownership down to the broadcasters if the team is chosen.

I am not sure about you guys, but to see Neicy walk into the warehouse, look around and say "what the hell" to PA, would be priceless.

Fingers crossed that we win!

Aubrey-

I believe the accepted wisdom is that the Padres would want the package for A-Gon to include one of Wieters, Matusz, and Tillman. Andy's not going to do that and he shouldn't.

I heard Marty Cordova is seeking a 2 year deal. We'll put him at 1st or 3rd and World Series here we come

I don't think Holliday is worth the money he apparently is going to get, so I am not in favor of the Orioles signing him.

I have been in favor of working out a package for A. Gonzalez in the past, but considering he has only 2 years left I would not sell the farm to get him. I would hold on to Matusz and Weiters for sure; several others (including Tillman) I would think could be sent. I think that Bergesen is quite possibly at the peak of his value, and I might try to parlay that into some good players, if GMs are interested. I like Bergy, but I'm not convinced by his success last year.

You know with New Years only a few days away i now realize what my problem is. See pete i am much older then your average poster and i admit that i am a old school and see things from that perspective. I was fortunate enough to have experienced all the oriole's success in the late 60's and 70's . I was in my prime the last time the orioles won a world series and i guess i look at things a bit different then most people. I am not saying that the younger posters on here aren't just as frustrated as me but i think my biggest problem stems from what i perceive as a complete lack of disipline with the modern day managers and coaches.You can guess by now that is why i am so against the rehiring of dave t.In football i experienced all the success of the colts when they were in baltimore and now for the most part with the ravens. I quess what i am really trying to say is we as fans complained about firing Brian billick for his lack of discipline and now all the talk shows and blogs in baltimore talk about how can harbaugh let these penalities happen week in and week out. I realize the game and the players have changed mainly because of the huge salaries that they are paid but i can't help going back and seeing coaches like parcells, jimmy johnson,mike ditka, cowher, tom coughlin, and now bellicek not take any crap from any of there players . I remember many a game where Phil simms GIants MVP and Super bowl Qb make a mistake and parcells would literally almost make him cry on the sidelines. The same holds true with jimmy johnson. Pete i quess my real problem stems more from the current age of coaches like dave t and harbaugh that just sugar coats everything when it certainly would be nice to see them get in somebodies face once and awhile and tell them that you are killing me and the other 52 ballplayers on your team. I don't expect coaches to crab players face masks anymore or grab there jersey's but i know there has to be a happy medium out there somewhere. I hope somebody out there including yourself can make at least a little sense of all of this.

Though it would be cool if the Os pulled a 'Vlad' and swooped in and won the holliday sweepstakes and then took a one year with an option flyer on Delgado it just doesn't look good...Andy seemed to do a decent job last year of reading the market, for instance not giving up an Edgar Renteria type deal...Giants are kicking themselves for that one. Man, I'm an optimistic fool to think Andy's waiting for the market to settle then nail us a #3-4 hitter. Someone smack me. Thanks I needed that.

No O's news is good news for O's fans. I'd rather roll with the losers we have, than collect other losers.

unless Gonzales is going to sign a long extension (And he probably would be crazy to do that) we are not going to give up any of our front line prospects.

If our young kids play a bit better than last year and that is a reasonable expectation, we will win more games than last year. Give us another year or two with similar developments and we will be a force to reckon with.

I wonder if Bay would even consider coming here at this time. I doubt it.

The O's "management group" is nothing more than a pack of morons posing as idiots. Always have been. Exactly why haven't they pulled a trade for Gonzalez, signed Holiday and/or LaRoche or? Oh wait....my mistake....they're doing or. Then sign Bedard and his tractor trailer of bandaids and wha-la.......instant contender. What the hell is wrong with this group. Just do it!! The fans deserve it.

Aubrey Mitchell -

You absolutely butchered Reimold's last name LOL!

Also, offering only 1 of the 3 players you mentioned in a package for Gonzalez is barely the tip of the iceburg. It would have to include all 3 plus Wieters or Matusz and possibly an established veteran. San Diego isn't that desperate to get rid of him.
A 5 for 1 trade just isn't worth it. In fact, it would be stupid. The ball is in San Diego's court, not ours.

Mt wish list starts and ends w/ Gonzales 40 homers in a pitchers park equates to atleast 50 in a band box like the Yard. We just have to agree on a extention before hand.Without a legit cleanup hitter we will never stand a chance. All these great young arms don't mean squat if we can't put up any runs.

Actually there is a lot going on in baseball right now.. Has anyone heard about this 3 team mega trade for the Red Sox to land A-Gon?

I have serious issues with calling what the Orioles strategy is right now a plan. Andy Macphail is a great executive but can only be as good as the owner will let him be. Macphail has to field a Major League Baseball team with AAA prospects playing against the best teams in the game in the AL East not to mention the Yankees and Red Sox are already looking very good this season with their new pickups. I don’t see how the team is in a better direction because the team has been getting worse each year since Macphail has taken over. Hopefully this season the team makes some kind of improvement with the record. I think most fans would be excited to see the team be close to 500 even. That’s not that big of a request and if they cant pull that simple task off you have to question just what they are doing.

Also, about Holliday, are you people kidding? What's the point of overpaying for a player like him in this dryed up market? It's not that I don't have faith in AM, it's the fact that bringing Holliday here makes no sense.

Also, Reimold isn't going to 1st base. Why should he? Him and Holliday provide the same kind of defense which further makes me beleive that signing him would be pointless. Constructing a competitive team isn't just signing high priced players at will and mix-matching what position they're going to play. That's a formula for failure. This isn't the Yankee's with seemingly unlimited resources who can afford to do things like that and get away with it.

Hell, why not sign Lackey, Bay, Holliday, and Beltre. Because it makes so much sense to pay top dollar for players who aren't even in the top-5 of their respective position. Lackey IS NOT an ace. Bay is a horrible fielder and both him and Beltre are overrated. Especially Beltre.

If you go back to that earlier entry, about 200 of those comments are just people hurling insults back and forth. Rivoting.

Sign Holliday. Right now he is being offered $80mil for five years. Up that to $90. Then trade Jones, Reimold and Tillman for either Gonzales or Prince Fielder; if a long term contract could be negotiated with either of them prior to the trade. Without a long term deal in place a trade for either of them would be self destructive. However, you may be able to work a sign and trade if there is any relationship with either of those FOs. This would give the O's instant credibility and a competitive lineup.

Prediction : The O's wait until late March to resign Melvin Mora and move Atkins to first.Thus completing the roster for 2010. We come in around 24th in salary but we sit in the stands and are happy. Because we didn't spend more than we should as the Yankees and Sox's are crushing us in the field and in the standings. Maybe if we save for just a few more years the Yanks will be pretty old!!!

Reason why the Orioles will lose 100 games in 2010:
-Dave Trembley
-Not enough veteran leadership with winning experience
- The team still needs a cleanup hitter
- Too many question marks in the starting rotation
- The only ray of light in the infield is Roberts
- There will be a huge drop-off in ticket sales this year (except when sox and yanks are in town) The fans are sick of this

What pains me about this plan is how the front office is ignoring needs that could have already been addressed with quality players for short term contracts. We do not have a legitimate 1st of 3rd baseman and could of signed some instead AM is playing the bargain bin game and waiting for the leftover junk. Even if this new starting rotation works out which is highly unlikely who is consistent enough to score runs? All the hitters on this team are ridiculously streaky or go on the DL. The Orioles need to spend some money and get a power bat to reenergize this stale lineup. Without one its going to be the same old story.

Mets just signed Jason Bay

Yoder -

Anybody who thinks this team is worse off then it was 3 or even 10 years ago needs their head examined. A lot of blame falls on Angelos since the start of the 12+ years of losing, but the '00 Firesale by Syd Thrift jacked this team to hell. And while I question MacPhail sometimes, I'd have to blind to not see the improvements in this franchise as a whole.

This team has a long ways to go. I wouldn't even bank on 2012. But for the train wreck AM walked into, it takes more then just the W/L column to see what he's done.

Well Jason bay just signed with the Mets so you know what that means? The Red Sox WILL land Holliday or A-Gon. They already have a great outfield with Mike Cameron, Jacoby Ellsbury and JD Drew. So this will probably mean they send some guys from Pawtucket and Clay Buchholz packing for San Diego to get A-Gon. Orioles need to make a trade.

I say package a deal around Adam Jones and some prospects to land A-Gon. Love Adam but hes from San Diego and would help bring A-Gon here. We can use Pie for a year or 2 in his position. It is critical we finally land a cleanup hitter!

We have a logjam of platoon players and outfielders and no infield. Make a trade Andy!

Holliday is over-rated and so are many of those still available free agents. Let's keep what we have and maybe add Bedard. After we have a couple of months to evaluate our young guys we may be in an excellent position to trade for Gonzales in July. We may find we don't need him as much as we think we do know. Keep to the plan. There still may be a late addition at a good salary as the market percolates.

dave in glen burnie

I think you might need to be "examined" too :) Are you a pro baseball scout or something?

How can you tell the team is getting better off when the seasons get worse and worse? You cant tell. The proof is in the record everything else is just talk. By the time Andy is gone this team will probably be moved or still losing and about to be moved.

Bill in Salisbury,
You have posted a great formula to lose close to 100 (the Orioles norm) and be a basement embarrassment. Do you care at all about this team? Maybe you just want Camden Yards beer lines to be shorter than more popular teams stadiums…

I think the team has a decent core but the fans that have kept up with the team for the last 5+ years are tired of the same losing process each year. Tired of seeing all the other teams logically arm themselves with the tools they need to play baseball and go out and compete. Personally I would like this years Orioles to make a statement and land A-Gon before the Red Sox.

Larry,

100 losses? Last yr's team couldn't lose 100 and they didn't have the core together for the entire season. They started with guys like Eaton, Hendrickson, and Simon, then the young players got shut down early. Even if no one improves at all (which is virtually impossible) there is good reason to think those same guys could win 70 next yr. Add to that a solid closer and a veteran starter, and factor in the experience from last yr. I'm not making any bets, but 81 wins would not surprise me.

Oh yeah they lost 98 LOL. You are right though the pitching staff was worse than this.. wait a min…. This years pitching staff is about the same! Retreads and rookies! Not to mention that we still will have no consistent hitters at all. 100.

The Orioles have made no moves to distance themselves from last year’s nightmare. Still got Trembley, still got that bad pitching staff with too many unproven factors, and same caliber hitters as last year.

Is there any chance McTrembley aka Turtle aka Cap’n Kirk aka Dirty pillows aka jimmy’s be fired before the season starts?

Q -

No. But just about every other pro scout in MLB will tell you this franchise is better off now then it ever was the past 12 years. I wouldn't just blow smoke or waste my time reading about it. And the proof isn't just in the record. You can't tell me it's impossible to see the improvements made in this organization and not sound like a typicall jaded fan.

Before 2007, what direction did this franchise have and where was it going? Compare it to the present and please use logic. The Angelos conspiracy theories are tired and boring. Outside of W/L record, the franchise has improved. It has to start somewhere and most scouts and execs will say it's player developement.

Pete,
Did Kevin allow you to call this a "Must win" game??
Just wondering?

Alright I’m just going to come out and say it. Everyone says the Mets payroll is totally jacked from Omar Minaya making a mess but he got it done today. Yeah you can say the Mets need better starting pitchers but I guess what I am getting at is how can an unpopular GM and owners that just got ripped off for everything they own still land big time free agents and the Orioles cant do ____ in the offseason when they save money every year!!!!!!!!!!

They have MASN and freeload off MLB! If Angelos is going to do this why not just move the team?! Screw it!

dave in glen burnie

Who says that the Orioles are better now than in the past 12 years? The onion? Wiki? Nobody knows until they see real improvement.

the Os pitching staff is better than last year already. Especially the starters. 2010 will see the Os improving on last years record (not a big deal). ALL free agents are overpaid. you think the Rsox think they'll get the same value from lackey in the fifth year as they will the first two? Thats a 3 year deal with fingers crossed for the final 2. Holliday at 6yrs/90 million is high, but he's best hitter on the market and someone will over pay. A deal like that will certainly not hamstring the Os payroll, unless they want it to. Front load like A-Rods if you can. As for A-gon, the Pads have to want to deal him, and they'll get more at the AS break this year than they will now. Still rather sign Delgado now and blow the doors off for Mauer next year.

Wait, Zrebiec says YOU have a huge head? Get him a mirror.

I think all Oriole fans need to take a good look at what is reality and what is hype. Also you can never minimize the Angelos situation unless the team wins the world series. Angelos ruined baseball in Baltimore.

I would like to see the Orioles add Ben Sheets and/or Erik Bedard to the starting rotation and pull off a trade to get an established hitter

PA interference and greed costs the Orioles every year the ability to land FA. The Orioles front office is still trying to land players for the 2009 season.

Erik Bedard would be a typical Orioles pick up. Typical as in we get him and he goes on the DL like most other pitchers we sign.

Unless more players are signed...

2009 opening day vs. 2010 opening day
Greg Zaun -C- Matt Wieters
Aubrey Huff -1B- Michael Aubrey
Brian Roberts -2B- Brian Roberts
Ceasar Izturis -SS- Cesar Izturis
Melvin Mora -3B- Garrett Atkins
Felix Pie -LF- Nolan Reimold
Adam Jones -CF- Adam Jones
Nick Markakis -RF- Nick Markakis
Luke Scott -DH- Luke Scott

2009 -Starting Rotation- 2010
Jeremy Guthrie -1- Kevin Millwood
Koji Uehara -2- Jeremy Guthrie
Alfredo Simon -3- Brian Matusz
Mark Hendrickson -4- Brad Bergeson
Adam Eaton -5- Chris Tillman

2009 -Bullpen- 2010
Brian Bass -Long Relief- Koji Uehara
Matt Albers -Long Relief- David Hernandez
Chris Ray -RHP- Cla Meredith
Jamie Walker -LHP- Mark Hendrickson (?)
Danys Baez -7th Inning- Kam Mickolio
Jim Johnson -8th Inning- Jim Johnson
George Sherrill -Closer- Mike Gonzalez

I think a lot of people on here are attributing the 2009 record to the team we ended up with, which is not fair since they didn't even play in a good deal of games and a few of them had their adjustment periods as well. With the roster as it is now, we already have a big improvement over last year, most notably... the pitching staff. While I like where this team is, there are only a few moves that would need to be made to help the club.

#1 - Sign Mark Hendrickson - Just get it out of the way. He was good out of the pen last year and shouldn't be a budget burden.

#2 - After Holliday signs (no, not with us), get what you can for Luke Scott - Chances are, he's not going to be the guy we need in a couple years when we are really contending. And he's most likely not going to bring any draft picks back when he hits free agency. His value was probably highest a month before the trade deadline earlier this year, but unless you intend to hold onto him and hope he produces on a consistent basis (not likely) the first half of this year, you're not gonna get much more for him than you would right now. At worst, we'd have Reimold/Pie/Wieters on non-catching days/Wiggy slotted there on any given day. At best...

#3 - If healthy enough, sign Delgado for the DH spot - Of course, this is being made tougher to get done sooner than later based on his not playing winter league ball yet, but his problems last year impeded his play in the field, not at the plate. He could be a legit #4 guy in the line-up.

#4 - Bedard - He won't be ready until mid-season (most likely), but if you want to roll the dice and assume you can get something good for Millwood around the trade deadline, you could then slide Bedard into that spot in the starting rotation. When he's on, he's a legit Ace and he'll come at a fairly reasonable price. A one-year deal with incentives and a team option for 2011 should get the job done.

Making these moves won't have people talking contention at the beginning of the season, but with a little luck, you could give the big boys a run for their money. That alone would make Baltimore a more attractive destination for free agents in the future.

I'm afraid I agree with Ryan. With Bay going to the Mets, the Sox will outbid us for Holliday and it's looking like the O's will once again sit on the sidelines as the Yanks and Sox make the big deals. There will certainly be more activity before ST gets here, but my bet is we won't be seeing any real difference makers coming to B'more.
We'll head into the spring having made some marginal improvements and hoping that the youngsters all show massive gains, which they may.
I'll be happy with a .500 team next year, which really doesn't seem too much to ask in the 3rd year of a rebuilding program, but without getting a serious power threat, it'll be a stretch for them to even achieve that.
I hope Andy has some tricks up his sleeve and I'm not going to judge him until I see what happens this spring, but this O's fan's patience is starting to run out.

THIS IS TURDLAND

A brief histroy of recent winters at the warehouse:

We cant spend any money yet, we dont know whats going to happen with DC getting a team

WE cant spend any money now because we dont have a regional sports network

MLB grants start up money for MASN and Flanny promises fans that we'll see an "immediate impact" This impact STILL hasnt happened. (Somewhere in the distance, u can hear criquets chirp outside the warehouse)

WE're not going to spend any money! Why should we ? WE can just be the next Tampa

WE're saving our money for Tex! ( The orioles proceed to offer Tex a contract that was 5 million LESS than he turned down from Texas 3 yrs ago)

We're not spending any money now, we're saving it until we're on the verge of competing in 2011!!

When 2011 arrives, get ready for the litany of new excuses that will surely arrive instead of elite free agents.

Jason C,

Right on man this team will spin it any angle thats popular to save a buck.

OMG ALL OF YOU!!! If We cannot trade for A-Gon it would ruin our precious 10 year rebuilding plan! We have worked so hard for so long we cannot TAKE THE BABY OUT THE BATHWATER! If we trade for A-Gon it would be a disaster Angelos would not be able to by his 43rd home in the Hamptons and have to wait 3 months instead!! Andy MacFail might have to wait 6 months to buy the gold fountain for his mansion instead of buying it tomorrow!! Peter Schmuck would not be allowed his food allowance for supporting our terrible decision making! Signing A-Gon doesn’t help anyone!!

Q -

I fail to understand your arguement. Sorry. To answer your own question, you need to read more. I'm not here to do it for you.

Baseball Prospectus, Fangraphs, The Hardball Times, Bill James, Tom Tango. These are all good starts. Avoid ESPN, FOXsports, SI, Buster Olney, Ken Rosenthal and other mainstream media.

Show me direct quotes that say the Orioles are a better team now.

Most of those publications have to devote a specific amount of time to different markets. They do not directly say the Orioles are a better team now than in the past. The one thing we know for sure though is that the record gets worse every year.

dave in glen burnie
Are you trying to say that the mainstream media is bias about the Orioles and there are only certain writers that you can read to make you feel better? All I know is that the Orioles suck and most sportswriters writers laugh at them except MASN and other clowns.

2009 Salaries
RK PLAYER SALARY (US$)
1 Kevin Millwood 12,868,892
2 Brian Roberts 8,000,000
3 Koji Uehara 5,000,000
4 Mike Gonzalez 3,450,000
Team Total 61,885,566
Team Rank 26th

LOL! 26th in MLB!! C'mon man spend some money you greedy mofos!!!

well i see the mets have signed jason bay to a 4 year deal. and andy macfail is till snoozing in the warehouse

SUN clippings from the last 12 years will show lie upon lie from Angelos.

Pete... can you reprint the quotes please?

AM lied (with direction from above) about spending going into 2010.

Pete - can you reprint his quotes please?

Thanks Pete!

Leonard,

You wanted Jason Bay?

Where would you put Bay, leonard?

If you check fangraphs, Bill James (who is no slouch) is projecting a better year for Reimold than Bay next season. Reimold is likely to give you better defense as well. So what would the point of signing Bay be?

Don't even talk about what a mess the mets are, even with Bay...if the O's had a 150m payroll and that roster, serious lack of pitching, clubhouse issues, not to mention a minor league system so bereft of talent that they couldn't even field a decent 4A outfielder last year(had to bring up a 19 yr old AA player and bitch about him for half the year), the postings on this blog would never end.
Omar Minaya is a hack(i wouldn't let that guy build me a dollhouse with a set of legos) and Bay took the best deal he could get.
Lets see how he does with Jeff Francoeur hitting behind him.
In a park where Wright hit 12 home runs. And Castillo hitting in front of him. They couldn't give that guy away.
Talk about a team forced to make a move- spell it M-E-T-S.
Bay is a nice player, but there had to be something going on there for the Sox to let those 30+/120+ walk away.
Now everytime somebody gets signed we gotta hear about it.
It's bad enough we gotta hear about guys not even on the market.
Ok, what's the 3 team deal the Sox are working for that guy?

Let me start a campaign right now. Hanley Ramirez or bust.

Andy lied, boo hoo.

He must be a filler.

el rojo, you must have missed my post the other day.makes your deals look like child's play. ask gil.he liked it.

I agree with 2baga2222222282349823832420.

Adam Jones is a very good young player, but Adrian Gonzalez is a GREAT player. I would gladly trade him and Tillman and another prospect to make this deal happen.

I like Adam's bat and speed, but he seems arrogant and a tad lazy. I don't need that in my organization. Pie showed the potential to be a major offensive threat and to be just as capable as an outfielder.

Just as much as I hate the idea of giving up an unproven top notch pitching prospect like Tillman, I love the idea of gaining a proven superstar infielder.

What troubles me most about this idea is how much it resembles the trade for Glenn Davis. Eeep! Sadly, we will never know how such a gamble would play out because I think the Padres want more and because I am confident that McPhail will not let go of a single pitching prospect.

Then again, why are we all so obsessed with signing Adrian Gonzales when Barry Bonds is available?

jim,

It's ok to you that AM lied as well? Doesn't matter to you? Doesn't faze you?

Because he's better than what they've had, he gets a 'liars' pass? I mean Angelos has gotten such a pass for years, so I guess it's ok for AM as well?

Just asking

El Rojo, my God, don't get Jim66 wound up. he got a red a** at all of the trade talk and Holliday dreaming, and proposed trading the entire roster including the batboy and trainers, then figured a way to sign and trade for Gonzalez, Holliday, Bay, Cliff lee, and he was working on a 15 players deal involving 5 teams to acquire Albert Pulholz and Ryan Howard.

No need to follow our prospects anymore because he cleaned out the minor league system.

Leave him alone

Chris in Hawaii,

A little inside gossip, but I ran into Mark Hendrickson recently at the galleria Mall in York, he lives up here. Years back he pitched for Manchester Township in the semi pro york county central league. I coached another team in that league at the time he played. I played myself until father time caught to me. He is well known in the area and is one heck of a nice guy.

He said he hoped to come back to the Orioles becuase it is only 60 miles straight down 83 to Camden Yards from his house, but his agent has not heard from the Orioles in a well over a month.

Wow Wayne,
An original post.....not!
"Angelos lied" "Andy lied"
Show me the quotes where Macphail lied. If you can't you know what that makes you. Well, a false accuser and yes a liar....
And remember, it's not a lie when Peter Angelos said in the past he expected the club to be competitive or whatever...it just makes him wrong...big difference.

Yeah sign Holiday because we really need a overpriced right fielder ala Cordova

Great post Chris in Hawaii. Those pesky negative ones on here can't really argue that we won't be much improved on paper when looking at that.

Bill Frederick,

Were you a lookout at Pearl Harbor? You post some of the most absolutley off the wall juvinile comments I have ever seen. I'll bet when you visit the warehouse you take your kneepads.

bf,

'it's not a lie when PA said in the past he expected the club to be competitive......it just makes him wrong'.

Wow, if that's not typical warehouse spin, nothing is.

And did you really say 'not'? Is it 1988?

And oh yeah bf, when the O's win 76 games, you'll be 'see everyone.....the plan is on course, as we're much improved'. You know you'll do such bf.....you and others like you!

Please at least act like Winning matters to you.....just a little! This isn't little league ball bf, where the only thing that matters is sportsmanship and having fun. Have some pride!

Wow, this thread made it 7 hours and about 70 mostly interesting posts before the kids started getting cranky. Go take a nap.

Gil, I backed out of the Howard deal because I had already traded for AG. It was either Pujols or Howard.Not that tough a call.Jeez, nobody wants to spend money or trade guys all of a sudden. And why is my idea,
as ludicrous as it may sound, not a bona fide plan to spend money and players to bring in spectacular players? That's what confuses me.You go all in, and they hate you for it. Well, what is it fellas???

What, nobody on board for HR?

Jeez,c'mon, this is all funny stuff.

Wayne,
You can't respond with facts so you make crude references and then call someone else juvenile???
Oh yeah everyone that supports the current rebuild is a tool....get a life man

Ok It was actually Gil that made the stupid reference to pearl harbor etc. Hard to tell you guys apart sometimes. Sort of the same note over and over.......
So Wayne, you can't produce any quotes that Andy lied so I'm supposed to believe you....I don't think so.

djph,

yeah, you are right it must be time for mine.

djph,
I guess you are referring to Wayne and Gil etc...because some of us are quite enjoying the rebuild and looking at a much improved product in 2010.
Lovin it!! Lovin the plan!!
It's in the hands of a GM who has won 2 World Series rings. Watch how they go crazy over that FACT!

Gil, I just read your last post from the previous Oriole thread. It's true. We beat that one to death and pretty much did end up right back where we started.

Mr. Schmuck is probably right that not much will happen until next week at the earliest on the hot stove front, at least as far as the O's are concerned. Not a bad time to take a break though and turn the attention to the Ravens this weekend as we'll find out if we're going to get into the playoffs.

I wanted to make a Raven's prediction in advance though. If everything plays out like I suspect it will, can you just imagine how many penalties we're gonna get flagged for (real or not) up there in Foxboro in the first round, against the NFL's darlings, The New England Tom Bradys. Still trying to decide if I'm gonna save myself the brain anyurism and maybe just skip that one.

I can see it now.
"Personal foul, defense, number 52, stepping into the Brady 10yd radius, 15 yd penalty, automatic first down!

Would've really liked to have seen Lardarius Webb covering Wes Welker, that would've been worth the price of admission. Too bad.

Hendrickson did do a nice job here. Once they put him in the bullpen spot they signed him for, he was pretty successful. And he was nice enough to do whatever when needed- some long relief, a spot start, showing Eaton to his car that last night, sewing Bass' arm back on.... A good soldier. You need guys like that.

Jim66,

I have been chided by djph so it's almost nap time. When you get to be my age it is difficult to suffer fools like bf who is running a close second to Tom Davis for the Oriole shill of the year award. i hope he is getting paid, if not he is getting cheated...., but I'll try to be good from here on out.

Jim, you totally disarmed me with that post on the other thread and it kind of wound up 10 days of arguing over what Macphail should do and when.

I have come to the realization that there are not going to be any big trades or free agent signings by Macphail. Duh.

So, with the current roster, what do you see the Orioles record in 2010?

Gil,
You really shoudn't go around calling people fools and making childish and crude remarks. It's simply ignorant and it shows a lack of ability to deal with facts you don't like.
So you just call names.....interesting way to go through life.

djph,

My son tvoed the game for me{I am technologically deprived} and I stayed up and watched it last night. Trevor Price is lucky to be alive. He was strangled, tackled, and nearly had his uniform ripped off on every play. My 14 year old son put together a sequence of 20 snaps wher Price was nearly asphyxsiated with no penalties called and it is pretty funny. I don't know about holding but the Steelers definitely commited 2nd, 3rd and 4th degree sexual offenses on him.

You are right, the Ravens are in trouble if they play New England. They could get penalized for making innapropriate comments to him while he is in the pocket.

bf,

I've never called anyone juvenile or tools. You should introduce yourself to the truth from time to time.....

bf and others, just look over the threads when it comes to the O's. You've become so much in the minority that you're really looking ridiculous.

You have nothing but 'names' to go by. Sure guys, we have some good young players. Who can deny that? Guess what though, so do many other losing teams.

You have your baseball america in one hand and scout reports in the other while predicting success in 2011 and 2012. Only problem is, the Orioles do not have a 'team'.

The same people were excited going into last season, but when things went all wrong, you spun yourselves with positive talk all the way to 98 losses. 98...... Are you proud of that?

All I am saying, and what most bloggers are now saying is.....WIN! Just win games! Not the pennant! Not the World Series!..... Just more wins than losses!

You have no facts, accept two world series wins from AM when the game of baseball was run completely differently. Do you understand how the game was different then? No, seriously.....do you?

So call people names, call us negative, and do all the things that make the warehouse proud. Fact is though, you guys don't matter anymore. You represent losing and are becoming more irrelevant with each positive post.

Here's a deal.... If the Orioles win 82 games this year, I'll come on these blogs and say you were RIGHT! I'll be happy to in fact. I wish I were wrong.....

I have the fact of 'Losing' on my side though. All you have are names.....just like so many other clubs. You have no team.

Again, pick winning bf.... Have some pride!

Guys. Don,t forget we play 36 games against Boston and New York. Until we can compete with them we will maintain a losing record. 75 wins max this year.
10-26 against the big boys
65-61 against the rest
The future is not great as far as any long term hope for sustainable success.
When they slightly falter they will reload with the best free agents
A broken sport. And we will be also rans 9 out of 10 years. Sad believe me.Sad.

Pete, how about a spring training post, our new home sounds like it will be a major improvement.

A change of scenery/subject is needed for obvious reasons.

Oh look at this new wondrous technology! Now I can put all my rambling thoughts that were too long to put on the placard I carried around on street corners up on the computer screen for all to read! Now, instead of kicking kittens on the street, I can push around a bunch of people I don't know through the magic of the interwebs!

Look at all you losers with your "names" of "players" and all your gathered knowledge! Don't you losers know that the internet is a place to rant about how you are all losers? I have insider info from the future that the Orioles will be fielding a batting practice machine and several garden implements at OPACY this year! They will lose, Lose, LOSE!!! Hahaahah! Xenu has granted me all my wishes! Only I know the truth and you should all bow to my psychic powers!

Did I forget to thank you internets? I'm sorry. It's so nice of you to be here for me! Now I can spread the word about the Orioles losing from the comfort of the home's computer room!

THANK YOU INTERNET!!!!!!!!

Q -

Under team president Andy MacPhail, the Orioles ceased the "strategy" of owner Peter Angelos that included undermining and interfering with everything his baseball people tried to do, nixing deals that would've made the club better and signing players past their primes in a desperate and futile effort to keep up with the Yankees and Red Sox.

MacPhail has never been one to spend money even when there's been money available. It was his modus operandi when leading the Twins to two World Series wins in five years in 1987 and 1991; and it was the way he ran the Cubs as they came within one game of the World Series in 2003. The Orioles were a laughingstock at the major league level; they were a laughingstock at the minor league level. Angelos hired and fired GMs, managers; jettisoned players and alienated a loyal fan base.

Now, they're made a series of savvy trades of clubhouse poison Erik Bedard; the fading Miguel Tejada; and veterans Chad Bradford and Aubrey Huff to clear salary and replenish the farm system. MacPhail's work is paying dividends with the emergence of a load of young pitching and catcher Matt Wieters. Combining that with the outfielders Nick Markakis and Adam Jones and there's a nucleus for a contender sooner rather than later.

Even with that, it was unexpected that the Orioles would be so aggressive in acquiring veterans this winter. In trading for veteran pitcher Kevin Millwood from the Rangers, signing closer Mike Gonzalez and third baseman Garrett Atkins, it can be asked whether the Orioles are making a similar mistake now as those that got them into the mess that required someone like MacPhail to even have to convince Angelos that his way wasn't working.

There's a major difference between the two situations of then and now.

The Orioles that were haphazard and clueless in the early part of the decade and collapsed were constantly throwing money at their problems. That money was wasted on players who were looking for the one last payday of their careers no matter the circumstances of the club or had nowhere else to go.

Rafael Palmeiro; Pat Hentgen; Tejada; Kris Benson; LaTroy Hawkins; Javy Lopez; Kevin Millar----all came and went without adding much to the on-field product. But the contracts doled out to those fading veterans weren't completed with an end in mind. They were mutually advantageous in their panic. The Orioles needed a name to put an artifice on their crumbling foundation; the players needed someplace to get a guaranteed contract for good money. The Orioles weren't much better with these players than they would've been without them; and they definitely weren't better in the future than they would've been had they given a young player a chance to play rather than clinging to the glorified past of the likes of Tejada and Palmeiro to draw a couple thousand extra fans in a year.

The acquisitions of this winter have not been on the level of those deals. In fact, they fit very neatly into what MacPhail has built.

Millwood is still an innings-eater; he's gutty; he's got experience in winning clubhouses; he can still pitch; and he's willing to mentor the younger pitchers Brad Bergeson, Chris Tillman Brian Matusz and David Hernandez. In a business sense, they got him for Chris Ray who----while having shown ability earlier in his career----was returning from Tommy John surgery and struggled this season. Nor does it hurt that Millwood is singing for his free agent supper. It's a total win for the Orioles in every aspect.

Atkins's star had fallen with the Rockies as he lost his starting third base job to Ian Stewart and was dumped, but the Orioles needed a third baseman or first baseman who could hit. While Atkins's numbers away from Coors Field are pedestrian, two things might help him with the Orioles: A) a change of scenery; and B) Camden Yards.

On a one-year deal with an option, Atkins is a great, low-cost roll of the dice for the Orioles.

There were questions regarding the decision to sign Mike Gonzalez to a 2-year, $12 million contract to take over as closer.

Did they need Gonzalez?

No.

They could've taken a veteran off the scrapheap or one of their younger relievers and used them to close, but the money spent on Gonzalez is negligible; they're not losing their high draft pick as compensation; and in the worst case scenario, there's always a market for a hard-throwing lefty reliever who racks up strikeouts. It's not a lot of money for what Gonzalez will provide.

The American League East is hellish, but with if the Orioles young pitching matures quickly, there's no reason they can't make a run at third place and .500 in 2010. That would make the venue even more attractive to free agents and make a leap into contention a realistic possibility in 2011.

These were more excellent decisions by MacPhail and the Orioles, whose fortunes are finally looking up. It's about time for a storied franchise that was once the crème de la crème of the baseball world.

Can someone explain to me why we passed on a 1st and 3rd basemen so far this offseason? I am not going to harp too much like the previous posts about obtaining the high dollar players (even though the Orioles have a lot of money tucked away) but the Orioles probably could of used guys like Nick Johnson to play 1st and be a DH for a short term deal. We let guys pass by like Mark DeRosa or could of gotten a bargin for Troy Glaus
As of right now this is what ESPN is reporting our lineup is.

C Matt Wieters

1B Ty Wigginton

2B Brian Roberts

3B Garrett Atkins

SS Cesar Izturis

LF Nolan Reimold

CF Adam Jones

RF Nick Markakis

DH Luke Scott

This is totally unacceptable and is a worse team than last season I don’t see how anyone can logically think it isn’t and how this train wreck can take the field against the Sox and Yanks.

Ted,

I wasn't going to waste my time, but I'll just say it again.....

Until the O's can beat the Oakland's, Detroit's and Toronto's of the league (just to name a few), one can't even begin speaking about NY and Boston.

Yes, it is a broken sport, but NY and Boston have to cease being the excuse for not winning 82 games.

No player with any sense is going to want to sign with the O's. They want money, but they also want to win.

I wish we could attract a player like Teix or A-Gon, but it isn't going to happen for any amount of money until we put together a team that can demonstrate good pitching and a decent offense.

We already have a decent offense that only needs a few components. If our pitchers keep us in the game more often this year, then maybe a big bat will take us seriously as a competitive team.

The most I can realistically hope for is a .500 2010 and a lot of low margin losses. A big gun has to see how he can make a difference. Then maybe A-Gon will make it all the way into free agency and we can make a run at him.

The above is from The Hardball Times. Want more?

Wayne the sport is not broken its the Orioles. They want you to think they are small market and cant spend like the teams that actually try so Turdland can freeload off of MLBs revenue sharing and the MASN cash.

Nothing new here.

Wake me up in April to enjoy a month or two of baseball before we start thinking only about the Ravens again.

Yeah Dave keep posting more comedy lol! How many wins do you see these mopes earning this season? Its okay man I am here all season long and when the orioles have a huge meltdown and lose close to 100 again I will look over all that BS you posted and laugh my ass off... again

C Matt Wieters

1B Ty Wigginton

2B Brian Roberts

3B Garrett Atkins

SS Cesar Izturis

LF Nolan Reimold

CF Adam Jones

RF Nick Markakis

DH Luke Scott

If this is what our lineup is going to look like I hate to say it but we need to get rid of one of the many OFers and get a real infielder that we can use for power. I say we trade Jones just because we have Pie and the guy showed real promise last season and is not that much worse of a trade off to give more balance to the team overall.

Hi Chris in Hawaii,

I did not understand your post about the inernet, nor did I get the point. You normally post in terms that old people like me can understand, so could you please translate.

Also, whoever posted the puff piece about the Orioles offseason just before your post under the name of Anonymous..I got that, and please don't test documentaries on the posters here. We are too savvy and that was awful..., and it made me puke.

The Orioles should totally missed the boat for a third baseman this season. The best guy left out there is Beltre and the Red Sox are going to sign him to replace Mike L. I know this sounds crazy but I think the Orioles should wait and bring back Miggy for a cheap deal cause nobody wants him and if he is willing to play 3rd Just for the simple fact there 3rd is very thin this season and we can still use Atkins as a platoon and ditch that horrible joke Wiggy (PS if he plays SS again this season I am done with the O’s). For 1st base I wish the Birds would land A-Gon but I think in reality we could use LaRoche and worst case Delgado to a 1 year deal until we can find better guy for the job.

Sign Jim Thome and fire Luke Scott.

What about Hammering Hank Blalock? The guy is 29 years old and pretty damn good.

Dave in GB

What the ____ is the hardball times? Your blog?

Andy has to make some more moves before the season starts this current lineup is almost comparable to the level of horror in the movie the shining. And think about injuries also if someone like Bergy, Millwood etc go down we there will be blood.

Just scrolled through the hundred or so posts and this gem stood out to me:

"Yeah sign Holiday because we really need a overpriced right fielder ala Cordova"

Posted by: bill frederick | December 29, 2009 7:36 PM

That's right everyone. 30-year-old Matt Holliday, who has averaged 150+ games, 30 home runs and a .563 slugging percentage over the past four years, has been compared to then 32-year-old Marty Cordova, who averaged 107 games, 12 home runs and a .433 slugging percentage in the four seasons before he signed with the O's.

Sorry, bill. But I'm never going to be able to take anything you say seriously.

Seth -

The Hardball Times is an online baseball magazine. Bill James and Tom Tango contribute to their annual "real" magazine.

THT is well respected in the sabermetrics community.

2 BaGga222...etc., I'm with you and all others who think the Orioles should consider trading Jonesy and others for Gonzo. As much as l like Adam and wouldn't mind seeing him stay with the O's, he would be a key figure in such a trade.

As you point out, he's from San Diego, so that takes away some of the sting for Padre fans who will hate to see Gonzalez traded, not to mention he's coming off of an All Star/Gold Glove season. From the Orioles perspective, it means they wouldn't need to trade away as much young pitching talent, which MacPhail rightly said he's against doing.

For all the sceptics out there who question such a deal, let me remind you of one thing. Last season Gonzalez, while playing half of his games at QualComm, as pitcher-friendly a park as there is in the majors, hit 40 HR. Imagine what he could do in a hitter-friendly park like OPACY, along with all the AL East's other bandbox stadiums...50 HR? 60 HR?!

Think about it!

Mr Wayne,
Go look at last years stats.
How many games did we beat Boston and New York?
We played the rest of baseball to very close to 500 ball.
If in almost any other division our record would improve dramatically. Immediately.
We have to scale a mountain not shared by any team except Toronto and Tampa. We are all 3 screwed.
If baseball refuses to install a real cap.If baseball refuses to return to a balanced schedule, effectively eliminating 10 games versus yanks and sox yearly(combined)
Than our only hope is for a realignment of divisions based on financials, cash flow
Boston,New York,Mets,Phillies together

Toronto moves to midwest, Tampa to NL

Dont care where we go but life will spring eternal if away from those money teams. Lets get in division with Pitt and Cincy. Hell,natural rivalries sice NFL rivals and as bad off as the Orioles

Its not McPhails fault, I hate Angelos but hes in a tough spot too.

Baseball has failed the 3 teams in AL East. Period.

Ted, and thanks for calling me Mr.....

Again, first beat the Oakland's, Detroit's, Toronto's, etc.... then you can talk about beating NY and Boston.

Good post from most of you by the way. The truth is finally being told on these blogs. If we can get the media to be 100% unbiased, as is the case in many other cities, maybe the warehouse would feel a little pressure.

The truth just needs to get out......

22 games under 500 against sox and Yanks, in 36 games
12 games under against the rest of baseball , in 126 games
Still not great but pretty darn tells the challenge outside the challenge Andy has to build a team from scratch

Yep,

Take away the Yanks and Sox, and STILL..... a losing record...... always a losing record!

Demand W's everyone! No more excuses.... Demand W's!

Yes Ken
Lets package
Jones, Matusz,Scott and AA prospect for A.D.
Only if Ad signs long term deal
Sign a free agent pitcher.
Sign Vlad to DH

We have a few real stars emerging from Frederick, My town and Bowie

2010 aint the year period.

But a lineup of A.D. Weiters,Nick. Reimold, Roberts, Vlad, Aubrey, Atkins and Pie in CF
combined with 2 old solid pitchers(Millwood and the next free agent)
Guthrie
Bergy
And the best of the rest gets number 5 starter role

Sounds like alot but I make that deal tonight!

As I see it, there are three possible reasons why the Orioles refuse to go after the best players in the sport:

1. AM is congenitally slow and conservative, hates taking risks of any sort, and has very low standards in judging talent.

2. Angelos has him on a short leash financially.

or 3. AM knows that no top player (OR MANAGER) will come here right now.

There's no way to know which of these three possibilities applies.

Suppose we all try to be charitable for the moment, ignore the evidence of the past few years, give AM and PA the benefit of the doubt, and say 3. is true.

Therefore, no serious approach to Holliday, no serious effort to swing the trade for A. Gonzalez. AM MAY be right in thinking that neither would have seriously entertained the idea of coming to a team that has just lost 98 games and is a perennial cellar-dwellar.

So, what to do?

Build from within. He's trying to do that. But, that still leaves a lot of holes in the lineup and the rotation and not too many ways of filling those holes from the farm (sorry, I don't share AM's faith in Bell or Snyder, or, for that matter, Guthrie or Tillman). As constituted right now, I would be surprised if the O's win more than 65-70 games. That's not enough to change the image of the team.

So, thinking realistically and hard-headedly, the O's are stuck in a mutually reinforcing cycle--they can't improve without the addition of major players, and major players won't come here until they improve (A LOT).

I see only one--admittedly very iffy--way out of this: overpay, short-term, for two reasonably productive (even if aging and one-dimensional) hitters at 1B/3B/DH on 1-2 year contracts, find a backup catcher who can hit (even if his defensive skills aren't all that great), and try like the devil to sign a good pitcher to strengthen the rotation (better than Millwood, healthier than Bedard). Who that might be, I don't know. These steps might lift the win total to 80-83 games and a third place divisional finish. That, in turn, might help the team swing a really big deal or two next winter, which could mark the start of a real turn-around.

What do you all think?

Is it possible to go through an article without someone debasing Orioles management or implying that McPhail is a liar? It gets old... and sounds whiny. Smelly-8-year-old-girl kind of whiny. It could be so much worse - just think "Omar Minaya".

Ted, I agree that something should be done in the near future to realign the divisions and balance the schedules. Here are two interesting proposals.

The first plan must have been written by an O's fan bc it puts us in a division with the Nats, Pirates, Reds, and Indians.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/144020-how-realignment-could-save-major-league-baseball

The other involves a much more dramatic change to the way the MLB schedule is played--basically a round robin of every single team.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=4417874&type=story

"Mt wish list starts and ends w/ Gonzales 40 homers in a pitchers park equates to atleast 50 in a band box like the Yard. "

Check the stats, despite the common perception, it's not a bandbox.. very slight HR park..and fwer total runs inOs home games than away games over the past DECADE

A Fan:

Number 3 is the answer. Until that changes, wondering about 1 and 2 is no more than an academic exercise.

I don't agree that it is a cycle. If the Os kids progress, wins will increase, so to the attractiveness of Baltimore to free agents.

I have no problem overpaying, as long it is short term deals that don't blow holes in the budget in the medium term.

Another pitcher. I don't think so. At some point you've got to give the kids we've got a shot at doing it. What better point than now.

There are two concepts that people here sometimes use interchangeably, but which in fact may not have relevance to each other. These are "making progress" and "being competitive". The former can be more easily expressed in absolute terms such as more wins, independent assessments of one's farm system, the number of quality starts from one's staff, etc. In my view, the Orioles ARE making progress. However, what matters even more is whether or not we are becoming competitive...and this is expressed in relative terms. Say the Orioles win 10 additional games in 2010, but most of those wins come at the expense of teams in the Al Central and West. Let's also say that (with A-Rod not missing the first 5-6 weeks of 2010 as he did this past year) the Yankees win 6 more games. I think one can make a cogent argument that the Orioles would have made great progress, but we'd still finish 27 games behind the Yankees.
Not very competitive and; therefore, it doesn't make us appear any more attractive to next year's crop of free agents.

Andy MacPhail has done some very positive things that show progress.
However, as previously pointed out, his history is one of proceeding very cautiously and methodically. In any other division where the playing field was more level, the probability of success would be higher. However, he's competing against Brian Cashman, Theo Epstein and to a lesser extent, Andrew Friedman (in Tampa), who have demonstrated a more proactive, aggressive style in building their teams. Obviously, the first two have greater resources so one can argue it's easier for them to be proactive.
However, even Friedman showed he's not afraid to make a bold move by making that trade with the Twins that got him Garza and the shortstop for Delmon Young.

Thanks Garry, good stuff ,will check it out

Harvey....perfect analysis, we are in the proverbial catch 22

But like we said on the street

B.S walks
Money talks

We simply are in a no freakin chance position,improvement included
It really sucks.
Born in 1951 here and can only dream a middle age mans dreams of great baseball in my hometown..Sad.

Several posts propose trading Adam Jones as part of a deal for Gonzalez, but there doesn't appear to have been much of a response/opposition to that idea. I hope that's because everyone else just sees that proposal as ridiculous and not worth commenting on.
Jones is already sooo much better than the vast majority of major league center fielders. And his upside is unlimited. You don't trade a center fielder with his skill set who is producing on the field -- particularly one who is so young and can be locked up for years to come. When was the last time the O's had a center fielder like Jones? When did the O's last have a center fielder who could hit for average and power, run a little bit, play shallow and still run down balls at the wall, throw out baserunners with a cannon, and jump over or run through the wall without concern for his own wellbeing?
While I would love to get Gonzalez to play first base and he clearly is one of the finest first basemen in the game, I don't see his production at first (where there are a lot of big numbers guys who may not put up his numbers, but still put up significant numbers) being a big improvement over what Jones can give relative to other center fielders (where there are a lot of decent glove, no hit guys). And when you consider that you would have to give up Jones plus other significant talent, it just doesn't make any sense. Same goes for Wieters. Those guys should be untouchable when it comes to trade.
Besides, Gonzalez can't go yard and blow a bubble at the same time.

Ted, I'm not quite sure who A.D. is. I assumed at first you meant A.G. as in Adrian Gonzalez, then when I read through you're proposed batting order I noticed Aubrey was there but no Isturiz. Is there a SS with the initials A.D. that I'm forgetting? Adam Dunn? Help me please!

He must be a darn good player whoever he is give up the package you proposed. Jones, Matusz, Scott and a prospect. With that group you mentioned I thought for a moment that perhaps you meant to say A.P. as in Albert Pujols. Could you clear up the confusion for me?

Great post by Moe. Like he said I think you have to look at how much any player you're bringing in improves your team over what's already there. While a 1st baseman that can hit you 40HRs is attractive, ones that hit 25 are much more readily available and may already be on our 40 man roster.

Conversely if you believe Jones can hit 30+HRs you'd have a hard time finding a replacement that is capable of hitting 15 or more. Not to mention all the other tools and intangibles that Adam brings to the table.

Besides the underestimation of Adam Jones, I think it should be clear that Matusz is untouchable. He has all the makings of a number one ace and that's way more valueable that a firstbaseman who hits .265 with 40HRs.

As I mentioned once before I think Hanley Ramirez is probably the most valueable position player in baseball. Not just because of his combination of speed, average and power, but that he provides it from a position that you hardly ever see solid offensive production from. Moe is exactly right that Adam Jones as a centerfielder comes close to that, when he's healthy and performing like he's capable of.

We all need to talk about this 500 post nonsense going on here. If I wanted to read this much, I'd buy a book.

Anyway, not too much has changed. I'm still in the middle of the two lands of extreme.

I'm looking forward to winning this year. If BRob can get his head out of his a-- that's 3 wins right there before you even add anything to the team.

I'm going to cut down on my personal manifesto ranting. I've put in my 2 cents on the plan and will continue to leave it at that until things change.

I was wondering though what anyone thinks of Johnny Damon for 2010? I know he can't throw, but he can still hit and he might be the best "winner" out there anywhere.

Just a thought. I can't really do too much more of this same old talking in circles thing even if I do appreciate the passion from all sides.

Hey Gil,

That post was a reaction to a certain post a few ones above it. Don't worry about it. I was just being a smart@$$. It wasn't directed at you though.

By the way, thanks for the anecdote about Hendrickson. I hope they do re-sign him as he did everything and anything asked of him last year and really excelled in the role he was signed to occupy (middle relief). I think he'd be a good guy to have in there again. I seem to remember a lot of people bashing his signing last year, which I thought was unfair. I do understand though that he's not really a natural lefty specialist, so I think maybe that's where the hesitation is in regards to his signing. I'm sure they're considering Castillo, who isn't a bad option as a specialist, but I think Hendrickson is more versatile and spot start or throw three innings to finish out a game if needed.

I might be in the minority on this, but I see the Sox taking a few steps back. Lackey is now going to face some stiff competition in the East plus Mike Cameron (what the hell where they thinking) is not Jason Bay and if they do go 5 yrs./50 mil for Beltre, I think they are going to mess themselves up to resign Beckett. I don't see them as the threat they once were because they still have question marks with Dice K plus how long can Wakefield continue to perform at a high level because if you look at Jamie Moyer, he is really coming back down to earth.

I think last year, the O's messed up big time by not getting Adam Dunn. That's there power 1B that they wont find this year. Tex wasn't coming here, but they messed up on Dunn because they could've left Huff as DH since I don't think I would mess with a guy who was coming off one of the best years ever from a DH to try his hand in the field. I still would like to see Luke traded because I feel he will bring in some talent and he could be packaged plus Jim Thome is out there and he owns Camden Yards.

I think a lot of teams overplayed their hand like the Marlins with Uggla. The Giants got DeRosa so the market is shrinking for Uggla to be traded and they need to free money in Miami so I still think the O's can go out and get players that really could help for them for the foreseeable future. I know Uggla has stated he wants to play 2B, but if a guy with the credentials of Michael Young can change positions so can Dan Uggla.

Wayne, on the 'Andy lied to me, boo hoo'thing. I'm an ardent Os fan, but I don't take it personally.
Gil, I think the O's could probably get to 76 wins or so with the present roster. Asking for a 20 game improvement would be a bit much. I figure some improvement across the board offensively, and hope AJ can stay on the field. Let's see who ends up at first(or third, if Atkins plays first). I like the young arms, but Matusz and Tillman won't see near 200 innings because you have to protect the young arms.Let's see if Millwood and Guthrie can help preserve the bullpen.It'd be nice to see some stability in the rotation for a change.
Unlike last year, this staff has some hope.

Anonymous, thank you for a well-thought out post based upon facts. The posters who do not see that the O's position is much improved going into this year are simply predisposed to negative thinking.

Now, I have posted my desire to trade for A. Gonzales as long as he could be signed to a long term deal. My preference would be Prince Fielder but he isn't on the market. I want one of those two because the Os need a strong number 4 to compete in the AL East and they don't have one now.

The Os pitching is questionable ONLY because of the inexperience of Bergesen, Matuez, Tillmand, Hernandez, Patton and Berken. It is very likely that at least 3 of them turn out to be excellent starters within the next 2-3 years. My money for this year is on Bergesen and Matuez.

The bullpen looks much better going into this year, especially if they sign Hendrickson.

Everyone says the Os need a 3rd and first basemen. With Bell in the wings showing nothing but promise the signing of Atkins was a measured, worthwhile risk. So, who plays first? Not Reimold, he's too good an outfielder and has no experience at first. The player everyone seems to overlook is Aubrey. I was surprised to learn he's only 27. He was a highly thought of first round choice and injuries derailed his career. He's healthy now. He's an excellent fielder and hit very well with the O's and even hit with power the last few weeks of the season. Still, he's more of a gap hitter than a number 4 but that's ok.

Who's going to bat number 4? Among the current players I vote for Matt Weiters. Last year, when he first came to the O's he concentrated on defense and his improvement was frankly remarkable. The last month or so of the season his hitting took off and toward the end of the year he was hitting with frequent power. I know he's young but he's a very special player who is obviously mature and is a guy to be depended on. Markakis struggled when asked to hit number 4. Unless the Os get someone else, Weiters is the guy. .300 30 120 are possibilities for him.

Here's my lineup:
Roberts
Aubrey
Markakis
Weiters
Jones
Reimold
Atkins
Scott
Iztaurus

IF the young staters improve this year the Os will compete for 3rd place in 2010.

They simply have an upside, which they haven't really had for 10 years. There is hope, despite you scrooges on this site!

Anonymous, thank you for a well-thought out post based upon facts. The posters who do not see that the O's position is much improved going into this year are simply predisposed to negative thinking.

Now, I have posted my desire to trade for A. Gonzales as long as he could be signed to a long term deal. My preference would be Prince Fielder but he isn't on the market. I want one of those two because the Os need a strong number 4 to compete in the AL East and they don't have one now.

The Os pitching is questionable ONLY because of the inexperience of Bergesen, Matuez, Tillmand, Hernandez, Patton and Berken. It is very likely that at least 3 of them turn out to be excellent starters within the next 2-3 years. My money for this year is on Bergesen and Matuez.

The bullpen looks much better going into this year, especially if they sign Hendrickson.

Everyone says the Os need a 3rd and first basemen. With Bell in the wings showing nothing but promise the signing of Atkins was a measured, worthwhile risk. So, who plays first? Not Reimold, he's too good an outfielder and has no experience at first. The player everyone seems to overlook is Aubrey. I was surprised to learn he's only 27. He was a highly thought of first round choice and injuries derailed his career. He's healthy now. He's an excellent fielder and hit very well with the O's and even hit with power the last few weeks of the season. Still, he's more of a gap hitter than a number 4 but that's ok.

Who's going to bat number 4? Among the current players I vote for Matt Weiters. Last year, when he first came to the O's he concentrated on defense and his improvement was frankly remarkable. The last month or so of the season his hitting took off and toward the end of the year he was hitting with frequent power. I know he's young but he's a very special player who is obviously mature and is a guy to be depended on. Markakis struggled when asked to hit number 4. Unless the Os get someone else, Weiters is the guy. .300 30 120 are possibilities for him.

Here's my lineup:
Roberts
Aubrey
Markakis
Weiters
Jones
Reimold
Atkins
Scott
Iztaurus

IF the young staters improve this year the Os will compete for 3rd place in 2010.

They simply have an upside, which they haven't really had for 10 years. There is hope, despite you scrooges on this site!

I'm a little tired of hearing some posters refer to the O's as fielding a AAA team. I'll throw out some names for you and you let me know if MOST MLB teams would have these players in their starting lineups (of course excluding the Yankees who can buy a MLB All-Star lineup):

Brian Roberts?
Adam Jones?
Matt Weiters?
Nick Markakis?
Brian Matusz?
Chris Tillman?
Brad Bergensen?
Kevin Millwood?
Nolan Reimhold?
Garret Atkins?
Luke Scott?
Ceasar Izturis?
Jeremy Guthrie?
Mike Gonzalez?
Jim Johnson?

You know the answer to all of these is YES YES YES. Of course, not every team would start Izturez, but enough would. Most every team would be happy to have all of the players I mentioned above and most would find starting positions for them. So knock off the crap about the O's fielding a AAA team - it makes you look like a bitter, uninformed, idiot!

Another thread derailed by bill frederick.

for all of those arguing with him, it is a waste of time. he has already admitted in another blog entry that HE DOESNT CARE WHETHER THE ORIOLES WIN OR NOT

He comes here for human interaction...any human interaction.

Hes just a little child stomping his feet saying look at me. If u ignore him, he might stop, but he cannot fathom why ppl care about WINNING, hes only here to be obnoxious

He claims to be a "business man" i cannot imagine what kind of business he's in, perhaps its a paper route, more likely he sells meth

Thanks Jason,
Now I have the power to "derail threads"! That's pretty powerful stuff.
BTW. I just said the O's winning or not doesn't affect my happiness with my God. my family, and so forth. If the O's winning affects these areas of your life, you need help and some medication, because it is a game after all.
Actually paper delivery isn't that far off. Is that kind of hard work beneath someone of your accomplishments. I can tell you are so accomplished in life because you are consumed with a baseball team with whom you don't know any of the players personally "winning now". Yeah, that's way important than if my children are happy and my wife is secure. Yeah a team winning baseball games is much more important. No wonder our country is in such a mess. It's about priorities.

not brooks,
the key point in my comparison with Holliday and Cordova was "overpriced" sorry you didn't get that.
Should we give an outfielder whatever he wants How about 10 years and 200,000,000. I guess you would even have some limit, huh?

Hi Peter,
Flat out, I think the Orioles are in a rare position for once where they can sign Matt Holliday. Their divisional foeseither seem to be playing the waiting game or simply do not have the resources to pony up and make Holliday an offer. I believe it is a little of both. With that being said, the Sox would have to adjust newly signed Mike Cameron's contract to afford Holliday. The Yankees meanwhilecould definitely use hime patrolling a corner outfield, but I just have a feeling they will stay out of the Holliday sweepstakes, but at the very least drive the market up higher for him. The Cardinals to this point seem like the only tea interested, and I don't think they have the money to both pay for him and Pujols. The Orioles can do it, open up the checkbook, he will come.

The numbers dont lie:

For the past 8 yrs, the Os have been in the top 5 in profitability but the bottom 5 in the standings

Currently, they have a payroll in the 60 million range which ranks 26th in MLB.

11 years ago their payroll was over 30 million more (around 95 million). The Os were the last team to outspend the yankees.

The Orioles payroll has dereeased the highest pct in the paat 11 yrs more than anyone in MLB except the SD padres, but the 98 pads played in the WS and have been crippled finacially by the divorce of the owner.

The Orioles are guaranteed a sale price of 360 million (tehy were bought for 170 million) guaranteeing a PRFOTIT OF AT LEAST 190 MILLION if the team is sold, no matter how poorly the team is run or much they lose.

MLB guarantees minimum operating revenue to the Orioles as part of the settlement with the Nats.

The Orioles are 1 of 4 teams with a regional sports network. The 3 other teams spend more than double what the Orioles on payroll and all 3 played in antiquated facilities until 2 of the 3 opened new stadiums last yr. The Orioles did not have to pay any start up money for their RSN, but the other 3 did.

MacPhails last 18 yrs as GM/CEO has resulted with 12 losing and 6 winning seasons.

7 last place finishes and 9 seasons with over 90 losses (8 of which were seasons with 93 losses or more)

In those 18 seasons, he has finished in first place only 1 time and has 2 postseason appearences in 18 seasons.

Any hope in MacPahil is an act of faith/propoganda and not based on quantifiable performance

Jim66,

I was hoping you would say 81 and 81 but sadly I agree that as it stands right now 76 and 86 appears optimistic.

Jim, until this epic losing streak began in 1998, the Orioles had never experienced more than three losing seasons in a row in the 55 year modern history of the team, and that only happened twice.

I hope that when this sorry chapter in Oriole History finally comes to an end, the owner will recognize just what an embarrassment and disaster he has presided over and finally decides to sell the team.

I have said before that Peter Angelos is a local philanthropist and a good man at heart. As a baseball owner he is a complete and dismal failure as evidenced by what you are rightly predicting to be the 13th losing season in a row in 2010.

He is a competitor and will not sell the team while the losing streak is ongoing, even if it goes on for 15years, which I think is unlikely. I think it ends at 13.

Just ending the streak will not free the fans from the Angelos family scourge so there should be a push by the fans to try to get him to sell as soon as the streak ends, or the organization will have to deal with his son John in the post-Macphail era.

At least his father has heart.

Tom & EJR,

Thanks, but no thanks.... Tom, are you serious? Compete for 3rd with that line-up? What an embarrassing post.....

EJR, names dude......alot of names! Every Losing club has them, but only Oriole fans treat them like present and future studs or hall of famers. Truth is, some have panned out (good players, not great), some will develop (hopefully), and many likely will not. That's how baseball works. You see that, right? You know that, right?

You both have to come with more than that... Incredibly weak! The reason bloggers telling the truth far outnumber the warehouse bloggers is because we have FACTS on our side.... LOSING on our side.

You have nothing.... accept of course a weak axs overall line-up and a list of names.....

Ask for Winning guys! Have pride!

"LOSING on our side."
Wayne Dec 30th 2009

That's one of the few things you've said I agree with. You do have a losing mentality on your side...... all the while railing at others for hoping and looking at the positives.
"warehouse bloggers" did you come up with that wittisicm all on your own or did you and Gil hatch it together....
and what would that make you?....part of the "loser bloggers"

"Win NOW".....oh wait it's only December and the roster isn't even completed....Ok "Win in February" oh wait that's only spring training......
Well "WIn NOW" anyway, no sense letting facts get in the way.

The O's have a good enough offense to win games. I have said this many times before and I will say it again. The PITCHING is what has been the problem. We have consistently had one of the worst pitching stats in all of baseball. Without pitching, you won't win games. Who cares if you sign A.G and score an extra run per game if your pitching is still giving up on average more than you score? It is the pitching that will turn the franchise around. I believe our pitching will improve dramatically from a year ago. As already stated, you can't expect to win games when you have starters such as Eaton, Cabrera, Liz, Olson, Burres, Waters, Penn, Simon, Hendrickson (effective reliever though), Hill, Berken, Loewen, Trachsel, Wright, Benson, etc.

The above pitchers absolutely stunk it up. The bullpen was just as pitiful. Having pitchers such as those above are a sure way to lose A LOT of games. But things are different now. We have two veterans who should win at least 12 games a piece in Millwood and Guthrie. We have three outstanding young pitchers. Bergensen was our best starter last year AS A ROOKIE!!!!!! Had he not been injured, he could have been in the running for ROY. Take into account that he started in AAA and was not brought up until halfway through the season. He could be our best pitcher again next season and win 15 games. A come backer on the shin may have ended his season early, but it is not a shoulder or elbow injury so I expect him to be continue where he left off and even improve. Matusz was not very consistent, but he did come on very strong at the end. He will still be considered a rookie the beginning of next season. Many analysts label Matusz as a number 1 or 2 starter. Assuming he starts the season with the O's, he could make a run at ROY. I expect him to win at least 12 games next season. Tillman is still 21 years old. He is young and has plenty of room to grow. He also is projected as a top of the rotation pitcher. As a number 5 starter and beginning the season in the majors, he too could easily win 10 games next season. This may sound hard to believe, but if our pitchers can go deeper into games, that will snowball into the bullpen. Losing Sherrill is not as big a concern now that we have M. Gonzalez. He will be the closer. You can even argue our bullpen will be better getting rid of Walker, Bradford, Bass, Baez, etc. We have young live arms in the bullpen. If the team ERA improves to the middle of the pack, our win total will automatically go up. I can be sure of one thing. We will not have the worst ERA in all of baseball next season. We may not be at the top either, but even in the middle our wins will come.

Take into account on offense having Weiters, Reimold, Pie, and Jones. All four of these players will improve. Weiters at the end of the season went unnoticed. He could turn out to be the 30 HR guy we need. Same could be said about Reimold. He started at AAA and played with a bad achilles tendon all year long. The pain was finally unbearable and had season ending surgery. I expect him to hit at least 20 HR's, if not more. I see Reimold moving to 1B so Pie can continue in LF. He was a big surprise last season. He may not be a power hitter, but he showed he can be good all around. Adam Jones on the other hand made a huge jump last season. He made the All Star team in his 2nd season. He will only improve as he is only 23 years old.

These are all young players who are on the team NOW. There is no more waiting around for the youth movement. It is already here. It just got here the end of last season. Why would anyone want to get rid of these players when they just started playing in the big leagues? Holliday and Gonzalez are further in their career. They may be better than the youngsters right now, but our youngsters will continue to improve. Our pitching prospects have reached the rotation. Why trade them away for someone who will be gone in two years? Sure, the FA signings have not been anything too significant. Sure, signing Holliday would make the team better RIGHT NOW. Trading for A. G would make the team better RIGHT NOW. But when they are gone, then what? Let our players continue to develop. They will get better next season. Our young hitters and pitchers will improve from last season. There are no more stop gap players that we need to sign. The time is now. Signing Delgado would be the only move that makes sense right now. I wanted Glaus for 2B, but Delgado will be fine too for 1B or DH.

You can even argue that trading for A.G would make the team worse by trading away the pitching we desperately need. Signing Holliday would only make an already crowded OF more crowded.

jasonc, the numbers are indeed depressing but they speak to the past. There are indications the Os under AM have altered their course. The paid well for Roberts and Markakis. They have added several potetial stars whom every othet team tought hihgly of. How much do you think it'll cost the Os to keep Weiters, Jones, Reimold, Matuez, Tillman, Bergesen and so on? Oh, I know the naysayers will say they won't pay to keep them. But they did pay to keep Roberts and Markakis which to me indicates that under AM things have changed.

The truth is no one on this board knows how all of this is going to turn out. I'm a lifelong Os fan who has enjoyed many, many moments of success. The last 10 years have broken my heart but not so much that I'm blind to indicators improvement is on the way. They say the sign of insanity is when people do the same thing and expect a different result. AM is doing things differently. There is an upside and it could be considerble. At least there is an upside.

bill frederick

he cant care about winning and his family at the same time, poor guy

according to bill, knowing a player personally is a prerequisite to being a fan of the team. That kinda makes its popularity sort of puzzling.

If u dont care if they win, y do u even bother ?

Show me a gracous loser and ill show you a busboy

bill frederick -

Even if the Cordova/Holliday comparison was about overpayment, it doesn't make much sense.

Cordova made $3.1M in 2003 and $3.5M in 2004. The league average salary in those seasons was about $1M. Cordova was hurt all the time, but an average salary of $3.3M on a two year deal isn't even close to overpaying for a guy who averaged 18 homers and an .808 OPS in '02 and '03.

The fact of the matter is that that Matt Holliday is the right handed power hitter this team has been looking for for the past dozen years.

The fact of that matter is that bringing Holliday to Baltimore would bring fans back to the Yard.

It would show that city that Peter Angelos is still willing to open his wallet to put together a good team.

It would show the rest of the team that Angelos and MacPhail are willing to speed up the rebuilding effort by adding the kind of bat that every team needs in the middle of the lineup.

If Holliday can be had for no more than six years and no more than $20M per, you do it. And that salary only makes sense for this team, because for this team, signing the guy means a lot more than adding a big bat. It means bringing back a fan base that doesn't care anymore. It means speeding up the rejuvenation of a hurting ball club.

Come on, Andy. Get it done. We're all waiting.

Jason, love that attitude of yours. The fact that someone is a busboy makes him a gracious loser? Damn, what a worldly view. You have a long way to go. Remember, you never know to whom you're talking.
Try keeping your ignorance to yourself. You may be surprised someday by what you may have to do in your life. I'll promise to dismiss your whiny foolish rants from now on.
I'd call you a condescending dolt, but I'm not much for name-calling.

Sure, signing Holliday would make the team better RIGHT NOW. Trading for A. G would make the team better RIGHT NOW. But when they are gone, then what?

If the O's signed Holliday, it would be for at least five years. In year three of that contract, the "youngsters" wouldn't be "youngsters" any more. They would be veterans and we would know exactly what they're capable of at the big league level. Hopefully, that core of youngsters, plus Holliday as well as an ace signed after the 2010 season would be competing for the division title in each of the years of Holliday's contract.

Gonzalez is a tougher sell, because he's going to be expensive in terms of prospects and contract. And if the O's did trade for him, who's to say he doesn't walk after the 2011 season? Fortunately for everyone in baseball, AG isn't a Boras client, so negotiations would be at least a bit more reasonable. But if the guy keeps putting up huge numbers in that huge ballpark in San Diego, he's going to get a huge contract.

That said, I think that if the O's can land Holliday, Nolan Reimold becomes expendable. You start the 2010 season with Holliday in left and Reimold at DH and hope that Reimold puts up big numbers. Then you monitor the progress of the young players and then, if the team is coming together all at once and winning a bunch of ballgames, you put together a package with Reimold and Jake Arrieta as the headliners and bring AG in to play first base.

Ken Francis

Exactly! We waited far too long to unload Sherrill after he was at a high. We should move Jones to his hometown team after his gold glove year and people forget hes a DL magnet. I like Jones but it makes the most sense to address the need of the team.

"I like Jones but it makes the most sense to address the need of the team."

If you trade Jones to San Diego, who plays center field?

What's the point of addressing one need if you're going to create another in the process?

How did we wait too long to trade Sherrill? Was he ever more valuable than when we made the deal for Bell?

Jonathan and not brooks,

Pie can play center hes not that much worse than Jones. Just having A-Gon in the lineup would help every hitter on the team and help prevent those horrible Septembers that happen each year to the O's when they forget how to swing the bat.

I think we didnt get enough for Sherrill because we wanted to long. He went to the All Star game and could of got more than a pitcher we lost and the cookie monster as posters call him.

not brooks-

I still don't see how Holliday at about $20 million per year is worth it. Not only is the money an issue, but our OF is already set. I would much rather spend that kind of money on a true ace or a corner infielder. Maybe even a top SS when Izturis contract is over. I understand why you want to sign him, but there are other positions that are worth upgrading more than the OF. If Bell, Snyder, or Waring don't pan out at the corners, I would much rather spend that $20 million per year on a top corner infield as opposed to an OF that is not a real team need.

As far as trading for A.G it will take much more than Reimold, Arrieta, and a couple prospects. Realistically, it would take a combination of Matusz, Tillman, Reimold, Jones, Weiters, and prospects. Arreita is still a prospect and would be considered as such in a trade. It will take at least two major league ready players and at least two prospects. Think about what the Red Sox have already offered. Trading for A.G would set us back since our young pitching would no longer be there. It is not even an option.

Besides, wouldn't you rather wait until 2011 when A.G becomes a free agent and give him 20 million per year instead of Holliday? That makes a lot more sense to me. It doesn't make sense to spend $20 million on an OF when we don't need one. That money would be better used some where else IMO.

Why is everyone so high on Holliday? Last i checked we already have a great outfield in Riemhold, Jones and Markakis.

John Szabo

Because that trio worked so well last season....

Hopefully Riemhold, Jones and Markakis is not the set outfield. We need to break that up to advance our infield. We have nothing there especially if someone gets injured. I wouldn’t mind seeing anyone traded in a move to get a real corner infielder because we may have Wiggy playing there at some point this season. PEOPLE! That is a clear and present danger!

Not Brooks,

I don't see how anyone can argue against trying to upgrade the team offensively now and give the team a puncher's chance to win in 2010.

Angelos has the money and even if they pay Holliday the Orioles will still have one of the lowest payrolls in baseball.

It's a chance to end the losing streak at 12 and an opportunity, as you stated for the Orioles organization to show the fans that they are serious about winning.

I will turn the argument around a bit on the posters who use it when it fits:

It's not your money, so why are you so worried about spending it?

Andy Macphail, go get Holliday now!!

Give the fans something to look forward to in 2010!

3 indicators that tell us we will have a losing record and not land any big names.
-Dave Trembley is still manager
- Ty Wigginton is still on the team
- 26th payroll in MLB and the front office is still exclusively looking for scaps heap players.

OK, I looked up Holliday and it appears he's a 25+ HR guy who hits over .300. At 29 he's not too old. He could be a number 4 hitter so maybe it's a move that could be made. Sure would give the Os some room to trade an excess very good outfielder. So maybe it's something to consider but if he wants 80 mil over 4 years that's way too much.

We need to get Holliday then package a deal around trading Judge Nolan Remiold and prospects to San Diego for AG. Then we watch some real baseball finally.

For the record, I'm all in favor of signing Holliday for 5-6 yrs. It probably won't take $120M to get it done either.

I'm less interested in aquiring A.Gonzalez--not because I don't think he's the real deal, but for what he would cost in terms of prospects.

What I don't understand is why there is so little interest in Adam LaRoche. The guy averages 25HR the last 4 seasons and has a career OPS of .834. Pretty good fielder, just turned 30 years old, and one of the best position players still on the open market. Is it because he bats lefty? Does he want too many yrs? Does he not have enough pop? Are we too fixated on A.Gonzalez to entertain other possibilities?

If the Orioles fail to pull the trigger on Holliday and fixing the mess that is our infield before the start of the season it will be totally inexcusable. The Payroll has been at the bottom of baseball for awhile now and they have revenue streams. The core is land down and its finally time to act and field a real baseball team. Not the mess we have witnessed over the last decade. GET IT DONE!

Jonathan

LaRoche is the best FA infielder left out there. If the O's dont make a run for A-Gon they had better get him before anyone else. Worst case they could land Delgado which I am not a fan of because of his age and questionable character.

What I don’t understand is who is going to play 3rd base this season for the Orioles.. a Wiggy/Atkins platoon?

Come on warehousers,

You're simply allowing those who speak the truth to dominate Oriole conversations. Why?

Because you have nothing on your side. You say the same things over and over again. You make up things that haven't been said on these blogs by people you claim to have said it.

You name players, you give weak line-ups...... you talk about the plan.... Never though, do you talk about having a winning 'team'.

Problem is, you only have L's to back anything up - ever!

Come on warehousers...... do better! Talk about winning, even if it's one more win than losses.

Instead of talking about maybe 76 wins this year (as some of you have indicated), how about having some pride? How about setting the bar just a little higher.

Try it... not just in baseball, but in life!

Gil:

You're confusing me a little. On the last thread when I asked you to define what you meant by your desire that the Os be a competitive team in 2010, you answered that they didn't have to be a winning team but one within a reasonable distance of the 500 mark at the half way point and that didn't have a complete collapse from there to the end of the season.

Well, a record of 76 and 86 would seem to fall within the bounds of your definition but this morning you're saying that that would be a sad result. I sense a little inconsistency here. Help me with that.

In addition, I note that you're now confident of the Os ending the losing streak at 13 years, meaning we'd have a winner by 2011 in year 4 of AM's tenure. That is exactly what many of us have been arguing. Welcome to the club.

There's also a little irony in your post. As you note, twice before when the Os fell on hard times they had three year losing streaks. Obviously, neither situation was turned around until year 4.

bob c,

Just wondering..... and I'm not trying to be sarcastic in any way.....

You do understand that the idea......the ONLY idea in fact, is to win at the major league level, right?

In the minors, winning is nice, but it doesn't matter as it's about the development of players. At the major league level however, you do understand how it's ALWAYS about winning, and never about anything else, right?

Also, you do understand that baltimore is not a small market city, right? And you understand why it's embarrassing that the club is # 26 of 30 in payroll..... You get that, right?

In little league, it's about sportsmanship and teaching kids the game. In the major leagues though, only one thing matters. WIns! You understand that, correct?

I'm not calling anyone names, not being negative and I'm trying to be sarcastic. It just seems that the reason posters like you, Jim66 and bill fredierick are being drowned out (more than ever) is because winning ALWAYS matters to most fans. 4 and 5 year plans, during the current age of baseball is unacceptable, especially when the team is close to losing at a historic pace (only behind Pittsburgh).

Anyway, I just thought I'd ask since it sure would explain allot to bloggers who must be shaking their heads every time you post. AT least if you were honest, people could understand.

I was the one who pulled 76 out of my Oriole cap.Gil asked me how many the O's might win this year. I said 76.
Just a guess. I'd like more, but hey, I'm a realist, and I figure that improving 20 games is a tough putt for any team.

If I said 81, I guess I'd be blasted for being an optimist. Oops, I guess I am, in some sort of twisted way.

Wayne, how does your thought process work that you can make a connection between my 'winning in life' and my opinions about the Orioles? They have nothing to do with one another. I'm a fan posting on a blog. My life is not affected by the fortunes of the Baltimore Orioles. It's just not. It doesn't make me or anyone else a loser. Why would I feel like that? Because I root for a bad baseball team? Please, get a grip.
I can deal with all of the discussions on the site. Maybe even the PA and AM bashing to a point. But don't you think that categorizing people as winners or losers based on their opinion of how to turn a struggling franchise around, a process in which they have absolutely no impact, is pretty ridiculous?
I would love to see the O's win. This losing and you beating on and on about it is pretty tiresome. Truth be told, you more so.
One more favor. Stop with the theories of organizational structures(winners, fillers, lifespans...). I could suggest some reading materials for you if you'd like, then we can discuss that.

Jim66

That quote came from Woody Hayes, not me

I know that you dont care about winning, so im not surprised that you miss the point. ANyway it was bill f who claims to be in business for himself, but theres no way a business man is so comfortable with excuses, that distinction goes to the bureaucrats... and busboys

keep telling us how "the plan' cant fail and that macphail is really a winning GM, despite having a losing record for 12 of the last 18 yrs and 90 or more losses for 9 of his last 18 yrs in charge

Its easier to chant idiotic slogans not based in reality than discuss the actual facts...ah the life of an apologist

bob c.,

Bob, I think that maybe you are parsing an isolated comment I made during our converstations. I think you know my overall feelings and our interaction really started when you questioned why it appeared that I was ready to blow up the rebuilding program and try to win now rather than let it play out.

I constantly say the Orioles should try to win in 2010. Yes, I would accept a .500 record in 2010 at the least, if Macphail shows he is trying to win, not planning to lose.

As I have also said, the team needs to bring in top of the line and proven major league talent in order to even smell the .500 mark next year. Macphail has not done that yet and I doubt he will. He will drag this project out until he is forced to act.

A player like Matt Holliday plugged into the middle of the lineup would change the paradigm and give the team a chance to go over .500 next year. He is an impact player that would make evrybody in the lineup better.

Yes, I think the streak will end at 13 in 2011. If not Macpahil will likely get fired by Angelos for a failed rebuilding program. He will have had his 5 years and if losing streak stretches to 14 years Macpahil is history. Macphail will wheel and deal when and if his back is against the wall to save his job and his legacy. Currently he enjoys Angelos goodwill, and many fans are hedging their bets watching and hoping that he turns things around, so he is not feeling the heat as of yet.

The first three year losing streak was from 1954 to 1956, the first three years in the modern era after the hapless St. Louis Browns moved here. The next streak was 1986 to 1988, over 20 years later.

The current futility is unprecedented in Oriole history and has severely damaged this franchise and has depleted the fan base.

I'm all in favor of any move that gets Luke Scott and Ty Wiggington off the team.

Wayne:

With sincere respect, I have no intention of responding to your posts. It's a free world and you're obviously entitled to make whatever comments you care to about things I post. Suit yourself.

With that said, I hope the Os are better in 2010 than you think they will be and bring you a little pleasure. On a personal level, all the best to you in 2010 and in years to come.

That Woody Hayes? You base your view of people in this world on a quote from the great humanitarian/
philosopher Woody Hayes?
You believe that quote enough to post it as a way to define
winners and losers?
Now that is funnier than anything I could post on here.
Thanks for the insight!

"our OF is already set."

"Last i checked we already have a great outfield in Riemhold, Jones and Markakis."

I won't disagree that a Markakis/Jones/Reimold outfield has pretty huge potential, but, last I checked, it didn't make any sense to say your outfield is "set" when the center fielder has missed significant time due to injuries over the past two seasons and the left fielder is a sophomore coming off an Achillies injury.

Again, Markakis/Jones/Reimold sure looks like a great outfield based on ability, but why would that be a reason to not add a proven slugger to the mix? Best case scenario, you can include Reimold in a trade for a power hitting first baseman or an ace. Worst case scenario, you've got four stud outfielders. And that's not a bad thing.

"What I don't understand is why there is so little interest in Adam LaRoche."

LaRoche is looking for three years and $30M. Until he lowers his asking price (which should happen soon), he'll continue to sit on the market with zero offers.

Someone poo-pooed the idea that the O's could have a third place offense next year. That is not out of the question. For much of last year we were hanging in there with the big boys in the Runs Scored column. Our lineup as it stands is not worse than last year. Provided we don't have another abysmal dry spell, and with the maturation of Wieters and Reimold, we could put up better numbers this year. Another bat sure would help. Ho hum.

Hey now...

"Ringolsby adds that the Orioles made an eight-year, $130MM offer to Holliday. What's more, he says Andy MacPhail "did discuss the possibility of arranging a meeting between himself, Orioles owner Peter Angelos and Holliday in Austin, Texas, where Holliday is living in the offseason." If true, the Orioles could be more serious about Holliday than previously thought."

Link: http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/Ringolsby-Holliday-contract-123009

Haha just saw that Brooks....beat me to the post by less than a minute!

Thanks Jim66,

Was just asking...... Anyway, same to you!

PEOPLE THAT MAKE THE ORIOLES STINK
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Luke Scott
Ty Wigginton
Dave Trembley
Peter Angelos
Garrett Atkins (why did we get this guy????!)
Jeremy Guthrie
The majority of the bullpen
Kevin MIA Millwood (does anyone know where he is?)
Prospects

The Cards bumped their offer 8 years for $140 million. The O's offer 8 years for $130 million. I wonder which one he likes more?

Gil:

Actually, your comment was a response to a pointed question from me so that we could clarify terms of the debate. I asked the following at 12:45pm Dec 23. "Maybe what we need to do is define what we mean by competitive." and "What does competitive mean to you."

Your response at 1:50pm was, "To me the definition of competitive is hanging around the .500 mark and not folding after the All Star Break."

It seems to me that if the Os were say, 2 or 3 wins away from a 500 record at the half way mark that that would qualify as being "around the .500 mark" and pretty close to what you were asking for. It would be about 38-39 wins.

Obviously then, if they didn't collapse in the second half, but just duplicated their first half performance, that would put them around the 76-78 win level.

Now you may well not have intended to say that 76 wins would be acceptable, but I don't think you could blame anyone for coming to that conclusion.

With respect to the losing streak we had starting in 86, it was only a 3 year skid because of the miracle of 89. You and I both know that that team fell right back into losing in 90 and 91.

So in other words, without the 89 miracle, the losing that started in 86 wasn't turned into a deserving winner until 92. That's 6 years of losing before turning back into a deserving winner. It just isn't that easy to walk a winning team onto the field on day one of year 3. It's possible but somewhat unrealistic.

As far as believing that it could be done by getting out the cheque book and signing up free agents, that's how the Yankee losing streak that started in 89 was turned around, but it wasn't until day one of year 5 before they accomplished it.

Why are the Orioles waiting till Monday to start back? Other teams are busy at work signing players. I am really getting tired of this wait and se attitude. Both years AM has been in charge, he talks toward the end of the season about going after some major players. Last year it was Tex. This year he said he wanted to sign a big bat whether threw free agency or trade. Now that it's time he whines about the market again.

He doesn't want to overpay, there are some other talent coming up in the minors we have to wait for, free agency is thin...etc.

My cousin is looking for a job. He can't hit 30+ home runs but he will play for $30,000 a year so there is no risk to the Orioles.

It's all rumors right now, Frank, but as the article on MLB Trade Rumors says, you have to wonder if the StL offer is all guaranteed or a five year deal with three options.

That said, if I were Holliday, I'd take the Cards offer in a heartbeat.

If the O's are really in this thing and the Cards bid is close to theirs, Andy and Angelos need to guarantee that $130 over six or seven years and tack on a big mutual option or two at the end.

LOL!!! Once again Boras uses the Orioles to make him more money like he did last year with Tex. Not sure if this is some kind of deal Boras and Angelos have worked out each season to make Boras some extra money that he sprinkles on Angelos but its comedy gold.

Dont believe any big time FAs are coming to Baltimore until you see it!

"The Cards bumped their offer 8 years for $140 million. The O's offer 8 years for $130 million. I wonder which one he likes more?"

Both deals are rumored to have multiple option years though. The Orioles could have fewer option years and/or more guaranteed money which could make it more appealing. Plus McPhail left the door open for more negotiations if he really intends to go meet with him.

Fox Sports has reported today that the Orioles have made an eight-year, $130 million offer to Holliday. AM has offered to arrange a meeting with himself, Peter Angelos and Holliday in Austin, Texas, which is where Holliday lives in the off-season.

Holliday wants "a contract that exceeds the $18 million average salary of a four-year offer he rejected from the Rockies during the 2008 season."

Fox goes on to say that the Cardinals have "made a proposal that could reach $140 million over eight years, to which Holliday has indicated an interest if the term is reduced to seven years."

"...agent Scott Boras remains focused on a eight-year, $160 million deal."

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/Ringolsby-Holliday-contract-123009

I think we're not going after LaRoche bc AM wants to sign a 1B for one year. AM probably wants to keep the door open to signing AG when he enters free agency next year or for the prospect waiting to come up.

I'm pessimistic about our chances of signing anyone of AG's caliber, so we might as well go after LaRoche. or we should just bring up Snyder and see how he does.

People,

The Orioles are NOT in real talks with Holliday! Please listen to yourselves...

Anything that AM is doing is for appearance sake. He won't even match the St Louis bid. If he did, Holiday could take it. God forbid for AM......

AM and the media only want to say 'well, we offered him a big contract, but he chose someone else'.. and of course the 'we want to get to a place where free agents want to come to baltimore'.

This isn't going to happen.... they don't want it to happen.... It's all to fool you, and it's mostly working!

wake up.........or at least refer back to this post when i'm correct, yet again!

bob c.,

Bob, I think the only issue that we differ over is how long a rebuilding plan should take, and is there a template? I was all for the moves Macphail made when he got here in 2007 and was on board all last year. I guess I expected more during 2009 and up to now.

As I have expressed to you I think it is possible to rebuild and add an infusion of proven major league talent at the same time.

If the Orioles were having up and down years and then decided to blow it up and go on a rebuilding plan, we wouldn't be having these discussions. The fact that the losing streak was already going on ten years when Macphail started necessitated a multi track plan: Rebuild the minor League system but take every opportunity to improve the major league roster simultaneously to stop the bleeding.

I guess I expected some sense of urgency to win from Macphail as time went on, and when I didn't see it I began to question his strategy as too rigid and out of touch with the times and the eroding fan base.

I really don't think we are that far apart, i just think we differ on timing.

Wayne, you're an azzh01e and you need to chill out and perhaps take medication, nevertheless, I think you're probably right. But it sure would be nice to get a guy like Holliday . . .

2 Bag,

I'm confused about when you would have traded Sherrill. He was an All-Star in '08, but that doesn't carry much weight because the honor is largely a popularity contest. In Sherrill's case tho, he was selected to satisfy the requirement that every team be represented. In his All-Star yr, his ERA was an unappealing 4.73, but he cut that in half this past yr, posting a 2.40 before the trade. At what point did he have more value than when he was traded? Yes, we probably lost Johnson, but the main compensation was 3B Josh Bell, touted by Baseball America as the #2 prospect in the organization. It appears to be a good trade right now.

You're right that Pie is valuable, and I'm glad they stuck with him despite the prolonged slump and mental mistakes. Pie has real talent, but his worth to the Orioles is not to be compared with that of Adam Jones. At 24, Jones is a proven everyday player, projected by many outside the organization (Peter can vouch for this) to be an absolute stud if he stays healthy. In contrast, Pie had 252 AB's last yr and tho he had a nice August, he struggles immensely vs LHP. He is only slightly older than Jones but he is far behind on Jones' learning curve.

All those clamoring for Matt Holliday, please be careful what you wish for. Look at the AL numbers last year for Holliday and another AL player.

Holliday: 346AB .286 11 54 .378OBP .454SLG

Player X: 358AB .279 15 45 .365OBP .466SLG

And player X is?......Nolan Reimold.

I know Holliday is a very solid player and is better than his Oakland numbers last year indicate. But it also indicates what might happen here in Baltimore with us.

Is Holliday a good player? Absoulutely. Is he great? AHHHHH. not sure. Definitely not worth 8yrs $130-$140.

This move for this much money would be detremental to the team in the long run if you ask me. For that kind of money, I would want a guy without so many question marks on his resume.

Unfortunately for O's fans there are no quick fixes to the major league roster unless you are the yankees or red sox.

2010 will be the first year that we will see whether or not Andy's plan is working. Wieters, Jones, Reimold, Pie, Tillman, Matusz and Bergeson were all part of Andy's plan. How they play in 2010 will be telling. Last year was a hodgepodge of filler players. It was exciting to see the younger guys start taking over for those guys.

Sean

There are no quick fixes in baseball when your owner is greedy Peter Angelos!

Gil:

I think you're absolutely right that you and I largely differ on timing. How long should it take to field a winner. Let me explain why I think 2 years is very ambitious.

Look at the majors last year. Of the 30 teams, 14 had losing records, ranging from Milwaukee with 80 wins down to the Nats with 59. Obviously, we're not going to expect the Nats to become a winner as fast as the Brewers, or the White Sox or the Reds for that matter who had 78-79 wins respectively.

For the last three teams mentioned, they could put a winner on the field in one year, perhaps by just being more fortunate with injuries, by signing a big bat or an arm, or by having a great young player come up who has an impact.

Obviously it would unfair to put that expectation on the Nats. If I remember correctly, when the expansion Jays put a winner on the field in year 7, it was one of the fastest building jobs in ML history at the time.

So where do the 93 loss 2007 Orioles that AM took over fit on that spectrum. I don't think I'm being controversial by saying, as someone else did on this thread, that the Orioles in 07 were a train wreck.

They were a team that had no growth potential. There was little in the way of young guys that would make anyone think of better days ahead. They were a team in need of being gutted, torn down and rebuilt almost from scratch.

I would suggest to you that if a dispassionate person, with no emotional investment in any of this, were asked how long it should take to field a winner gien how truely awful the Orioles were, year three would not be the most likely answer.

You seem to be of the mind that any moron should be able to accomplish that, and that if AM doesn't, then that is exactly what he is. I think that's unfair to AM. To HOPE he does is fair. To EXPECT it is not.

bob c.,

You made a declarative statement at the end of your post that concerns me, Bob. I don't think it is fair for you to depict what I seem to be of the mind of. You made up that comment that I think any moron could should be able to accomplish a winner in two years. I never said anything of the kind.

I think I have made it crystal clear what I think of Macphail and the"plan". I think it needs flexibility, not timelines. I think the Orioles have the money to operate on two parrellel tracks, fixing the minor league system and improving the talent level on the major league roster. I think the time to start a major rebuilding plan based purely on the development of the minor leagues is long past.

Bob, the tide of sentiment in this town is turning slowly against Macphail's deliberate approach and the fans are growing more restless by the day.

Take some time and read the responses to the thread about Macphail's denial of an offer to Matt Holliday.

There is change in the wind, Bob, and that change is in the attitude and patience of the fans who are left.

djph,

Just to be devil's advocate, but how many tickets did player X sell in 2009? That's why there is added value in a guy like Holliday. I also think he'd make a trade easier to facilate to fill another need. Ultimately though the natives are getting restless for anyone relevant to sign here willingly.

Which reminds me of wayne who's still sounding like Glenn Beck at a Kennedy family reunion. I appreciate the cause and by all means snipe away at the warehouser plants if there are some, but it's frustrating to see you urinate in someone's glass who is seeing it half full. Some people are choosing to see hope of their own free will and while we all know you disagree, there is nothing saying either side is right when it comes to 2010. There are no losses in 2010 yet just like there are no wins either.

The fact is the Os' do not have a pitcher on their roster that is capable of winning 15 games in 2010. Millwood and Guthrie may get to 10 wins each, but that means we need 61 more wins form the rest just ot break even! So go pay for a Pitcher!
First base and SS are the glaring areas for position players. LaRoche and Blalock could man1B if we want to wait for Snyder, another risk. SS has to be addressed. Itzuris is a fill-in at best.
More importantly Trembley has to change his attitude of "fathering" these guys and get tough. Fundamentals must be addressed as well as accountability. When players started to heat up last year, Dave pulled them in favor of distributing playing time for everyone. Look at the successful teams. Litle to no platooning is utilized.

We need an attituyde adjustment to kick start this team. Andy get serious or get out!

The fact is the Os' do not have a pitcher on their roster that is capable of winning 15 games in 2010. Millwood and Guthrie may get to 10 wins each, but that means we need 61 more wins form the rest just ot break even! So go pay for a Pitcher!
First base and SS are the glaring areas for position players. LaRoche and Blalock could man1B if we want to wait for Snyder, another risk. SS has to be addressed. Itzuris is a fill-in at best.
More importantly Trembley has to change his attitude of "fathering" these guys and get tough. Fundamentals must be addressed as well as accountability. When players started to heat up last year, Dave pulled them in favor of distributing playing time for everyone. Look at the successful teams. Litle to no platooning is utilized.

We need an attituyde adjustment to kick start this team. Andy get serious or get out!