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December 30, 2009

MacPhail: 'No validity' to Holliday report

Orioles president of baseball operations Andy MacPhail vehemently denied a report today from Foxsports.com that said the club had made an 8-year, $130 million offer to free-agent outfielder Matt Holliday.

"There's no validity to that report whatsoever," MacPhail said.

The Orioles spoke with Holliday's agent, Scott Boras, during contract negotiations with reliever Mike Gonzalez, and had brief discussions about Holliday, but they have no interest in Holliday unless his price tag drops significantly.

-Jeff Zrebiec

Posted by Baltimore Sun sports at 2:40 PM | | Comments (242)
Categories: Just baseball
        

Comments

Hmmm, could Scott Boras have anything to do with this. After all, to get his price up for Holliday, he needs somebody in the mix besides the Cardinals.

maybe it was 8 yrs and $128 million. if only it were true

Howard, you have a valid point. Boras wants the Cardinals to bid against themselves. I know I won't be very popular for saying this, but I don't think Holliday would thrive in Baltimore. He has always had amazing lineup protection in the forms of Todd Helton and, what's his name, oh yeah, Albert Pujols. With no one to protect him in the lineup, I think most pitchers will just pitch around him.

Hahahah...I don't think Andy MacPahil would offer an 8 year deal to his own son. No team should ever offer an 8 year deal to anybody aside from a truly seminal superstar.

And I'm sorry, but I don't buy into the Holliday crazy O's fans are sharing. He was only a good (not great) player in the AL least year, and now you want to give him too much money to play in the AL East? And by so doing, block a young, cheap player? Doesn't make sense.

MacPhail's doing the right thing. Save our money for when it's appropriate to spend. You shouldn't spend it just because you have it. Plus, we'd really only be bidding against the Cardinals here, so that price is too high. And we'd really just be used as leverage anyway.

LOL,

Right again!

Hold onto those 2 rings from an era long, long ago AM. You're now nothing more than an Angelos puppet!

You're a disgrace!

We don't need another outfielder. The outfield is set for the next 5-10 years if they decide to keep those 3 guys. The O's need a first baseman. I'm always concerned when National League guys with big power numbers come to the American League (see Glen Davis). When Holiday was in Oakland he hit .280 but his power numbers were way down. As soon as he got traded back to the NL his numbers hit the roof. I think he's a good complimentary guy. Not someone that can carry an offense. He proved that in Oakland. He benefits from having guys like Pujols in the lineup. Plus he played in Colorado. Stay away from Holliday. He wouldn't put up those kind of numbers in the AL. I would like to see Prince Fielder or Adrian Gonzales in the middle of the lineup. They scare people and it would benefit everyone in the lineup. But I know it will never happen.

I'm not surprised that Andy denied the Fox report, and I do believe that the quote is accurate, but, at the same time, I'd like to know where it came from.

Did Zrebiec make a call to Andy? Did Andy call the Sun?

Without a source, this post is just as much of a rumor as the Fox Sports article.

I can do it too, see:

Blog commenter Not Brooks vehemently denied a report today from The Schmuck Stops Here that Orioles president of baseball operations Andy MacPhail vehemently denied a report today from Foxsports.com that said the club had made an 8-year, $130 million offer to free-agent outfielder Matt Holliday.

aid the club had made an 8-year, $130 million offer to free-agent outfielder Matt Holliday.

"There's no validity to that report whatsoever," Brooks said.


.............................................................................................
Pete's reply: What are you talking about? Zrebiec talked to MacPhail. It says that right in the post. Questioning his credibility on this is off the charts. If you can find an instance where Jeff or I have ever made up a quote from somebody -- other than in a satire piece -- I'll kiss you where the TSA wants to search you at the airport.

6y for 90m would get it done, we can afford that but it would take moving Nolan to 1st or platooning.

Good point, Daniel. Holliday didn't do much in Oakland with a mediocre lineup. He's not worth what the O's would have to pay to bring him here. He's a solid player, but not a "game changer".

Unless Holliday can pitch a quality start every 5 days I sure hope the Orioles are not bidding on him.

Wow Ben, is that what they're doing? Saving it for when it's appropriate? And where does this saving of the money go in the meantime Ben? Is it your money by the way? Does some of it go into your pocket? Or will they lower ticket prices because they're saving until it's 'appropriate'? Thanks for straightening it out for everyone Ben. Now, all we have to do is wait for when it's 'appropriate'. Like maybe when they want to put a winner on the field. Let me know when that is so that me and my friends can buy tickets to games once again. After all, waiting until then would be 'appropriate'. Wouldn't you say?

I can only dream this were true. I have said it before, but if you sign Holliday, that makes Reimold a key piece of the puzzle to land Adrian Gonzalez. It makes sense. See if they really want to dump Kouzmanoff too. If the O's could land Kouz too we can use Atkins as a DH, 3B, 1B to give guys a rest and he would be better than Wigginton anyway. This plan isn't going to work until we take a risk to put it over the top. I think this would do it.

Of course they didn't make the offer, Macphail can't count that high.

All we need to know about his free agent signings is one word...stopgap.

He sure peed on that parade as soon as he could.

"[Holliday] has always had amazing lineup protection in the forms of Todd Helton and, what's his name, oh yeah, Albert Pujols."

You're right about Pujols, as he's the best hitter on the planet. But in Holliday's best years in Colorado, he was batting third and Helton was batting fourth. In truth, guys were pitching around Holliday to get to Helton.

Holliday's numbers have been influenced by his park (in Colorado) and his place in the lineup (behind Pujols in StL), and he's probably not worth $18M plus to most teams. But to this team, he is most certainly worth that much.

Fun Fact: Even in the first half of last season when Holliday was hitting in the worst hitters park in the AL with absolutely zero protection, he still put up an .831 OPS. And from May 15th to the late June trade from Oakland to St. Louis, the guy put up a .901 OPS. During that time, he hit cleanup with .230 hitting Jack Cust in front of him and .420 slugging Kurt Suzuki behind him.

TedB....... wow, lol!

That may be the best response I've ever seen on these blogs. Absolutely hilarious! Why? Because it was based on fact and truth.

In other news, the Orioles have no interest in any player unless their price tag drops.

Can anyone tell me if a player is on the 40 man roster is he guranateed ML minimum compensation?

"Plus, we'd really only be bidding against the Cardinals here, so that price is too high. And we'd really just be used as leverage anyway."

If we'd only be bidding against one team that's about the same size market as we are, how would the price go too high?

And if we're only going to be used as leverage anyway, why not continue to bid? The Cards have a much lower breaking point than the Yanks or Red Sox, considering their market size and the fact that they're going to have to sign Albert Pujols to some crazy 20 year, $450 billion dollar contract unless they're okay with the entire city of St. Louis revolting and burning Busch Stadium to the ground.

Alright, maybe that was a bit of an exaggeration.

But the point is that there doesn't seem to be much of a market for Holliday's services. And Holliday is the kind of player that could accelerate the rebuilding process while also putting more butts in the seats. So if the guy is looking for $18M per (and not the $20M+ per that he was looking for when the off season started), GIVE IT TO HIM.

PS - I know there's only about a one in a gojillion chance that this is going to happen, but it's still fun to dream... And then cry about it later when my dream doesn't come true...

He won't come here anyway. The offer was made from insider info but he turned it down. He wants to be a Yankee. Unless we offer 18mil a year for 8 years guaranteed he won't consider the Land of Pleasant Living a home. Orioles are cheap and will stink again 65-97 will be record Oct 5 last place again for 13th year.

Matt Holliday is only as good as the players around him. Scott Boros is another reason why salaries are sky high so why would the Orioles make an offer that high. Peter Angelos would never allow that kind of contract be offeredto anyone. He only wants to make money for himself. I don't think he even cares if the Orioles win or lose as long as he gets his money. Come on Peter open the vault and prove me wrong. The way the Nationals are working in DC they will have a much better team than the Orioles.

Prepare to cry brooksie! This is an easy one... Was never going to happen. Was never even considered!

When the Orioles are 10 games over .500 in August, I will feel it is appropriate to buy a ticket @ regular price and go see the Orioles. April Fools!! This will never happen because MCFAIL is a loser and looking to become commish of MLB in 2011.

MacPhail and PA wouldn't give Texiera 8 yrs but they'll risk it for Holiday? I'm not buying this one.

I know we don't agree about much on this blog...but I think we can all agree that 8 years 130mil is a crazy insane ridiculous price for Holliday. He's not gonna get even close to that. All the real offers so far have been in the 5yr 80-85mil range. how somebody pulled this figure out of the air is beyond me. But I can't believe that anyone would find it to be credible.

I think the final tag will come down to 5-6 yr 90-95 mil. And, it will only be that high because Scot Boras is his agent. Especially because Jason Bay's deal isn't exactly helping Boras push the market up. I think Boras was hoping Bay would get the guaranteed 5th year and closer to 20 mil a year instead of the 4+1 @ 16.5 a year. Hands down. No way this deal breaks the century mark.

Dave -

I'll say it again...

After struggling with a new city, a new team and a new ballpark, which is the worst hitters park in the AL, Holliday put up a .901 OPS from May 15th through June 23rd while hitting between Jack Cust and Kurt Suzuki.

Jack Cust hit .240 last season with a .417 slugging percentage. He struck out 185 times.

Kurt Suzuki hit .274 with a .420 slugging percentage. His OBP was .313. He walked 28 times in 614 plate appearances.

After he got comfortable with his new team and new league, Holliday put up a .901 OPS while hitting between those two clowns in a football stadium with twice as much foul territory as any other park.

To say that he's a product of the talent around him is just plain ignorant.

Enzo -

It all depends on who he signs with.

If he stays in St. Louis, I think it'll probably end up at five years, $85M guaranteed, plus two option years at around $17M each.

If the Yanks are Red Sox swoop in, it'll probably be something along those lines as well.

But, if a miracle happens and he does sign with the O's, Braves or Mariners, it'll have to be six years, $100M+ guaranteed. Also, if he signs with any team that isn't a perennial contender, I expect he'll have a vesting option on the end as well as one or two opt out years.

There needs to be some way of holding reporters accountable. In the age of the Internet, it's just way too easy for people with ulterior motives to make stuff up. I'm fine with occasions when a random FOX SPORTS reporter is trying to get a scoop, and reports things rumors first, but to do so when it's just false, something is wrong and maybe it shoudl threaten his job?

Perhaps then the chance of reporting erroneous information impacting one's job would factor into one's reportage integrity. That being said, you don't know if it is the reporters fault either. He could have been manipulated and/or led astray by a party with an incentive to do so. This is an ongoing issue of our times and I think it impacts how we think about what things are true or not?

That may be the best response I've ever seen on these blogs. Absolutely hilarious! Why? Because it was based on fact and truth.

Posted by: wayne

It's good to see that wayne believes "fact and truth" to be two separate things...

Holliday isn't worth more than at most $13 million a year over 6 years. You could front load that if you want and make the burden lesser when Markakis' contract starts going up, but signing Holliday seems pointless to me with Nolan Reimold in left. They're very similar players. You don't really know what you have yet with Reimold considering he was playing injured last year, but it's not like he's gonna lose his power once he's healed. He may turn out to not be as good as Holliday, but he could just as easily be better.

Not brooks! You are much more patient man than i when it comes to tracking down stats. Have you ever looked into what hitters do when they have studs hitting behind them as opposed to not so studly? I think i heard, for instance, that Manny's #s are great whether ortiz hit behind him or not...although manny would mash with you or me behind him? And if we though matt holliday was going to get overpaid, after what bay signed for, it's gonna get ludicrous.

This team is so boring. Buy the bats!*

* - unless they require real offer.

Josh: The O's did offer Tex 8 years/$140 mil...short of the Yanks and Nats offers.

As for others...I'd consider Markakis good lineup protection for Holliday, or even Atkins if he finds his stroke again.

Holliday alone isn't the answer, but as has been stated many times, it would show the fans that these guys are serious about spending money and getting fans interested again.

If you sign Holliday and move Reimold or Holliday to 1B, or use one as DH...what a lineup that would be.

I hope they fork out that money for Holliday. If he does well and the O's don't, someone will trade for him.

The O's are not a "small market" team. They have as much money as the LAD or Red Sox, they just refuse to spend it. Now's the time to fork out a little money.

It's like the Tejada deal...did it help the O's win? Nope. Was it a bad deal? Not at all, because it got fans excited for a couple years, and when it was clear it wasn't working, look what we got in return. The juries still out on some of the prospects (like Patton), but every deal can't be like the Bedard one.

I say put a firm 7 year/$125 mil offer on the table and tell Holliday to take it or leave it.

It could also be that that MacPhail wants to keep his mouth shut. Maybe the Fox reporter got his information from someone else other then MacPhail. As we all know, Andy isn't exactly the type of guy who will openly talk about a potential free agent signing until after the deal is done. Maybe this is the case. I highly doubt that a reporter would blatantly make it up. If the source were not reliable, I would think the rumor would be corrected and it has not been.

We're saving our money for the next 30+ year old player looking to regain his swing from two years ago.

World Series, here we come!!!!

Not Brooks,

I may be asking for trouble but I am going to ask Wayne to give us the top ten reasons why the Orioles won't sign Matt Holliday.

I know the ecoonomy is bad when the blogger's don't even want to spend Angelos' money, let alone their own.

Macphail denied the rumor faster than Peter Angelos could hang up on Scott Boras.

Macphail acted quickly because he didn't want his reputation sullied by being associated with offering a big contract to a bonafide star.

The Orioles are interested in bringing back Melvin Mora to coach third base. Melvin's theory is "send'em all and let God decide"..


Da dum dum.

Don't see why Holliday would want an 8 year contract. He's 30. You would think he would want the ability to have a new contract in 4 or 5 years. 6 years would seem to be the max that would make sense to me.
It would make sense to me to get him though. The FA market for bats is not great next year, and the market seems down now. Reimold shows promise, but that's it. I don't know why everyone is banking on him. Holliday would put butts in seats and start pushing us in the right direction. We still need the pitching to come through...

AM probally made a 8-year $130 thousand dollar offer to Holliday.

"Have you ever looked into what hitters do when they have studs hitting behind them as opposed to not so studly?"

It would take more time than I would be willing to give up to really get into that. Especially here in the age of players moving around every five or six years.

With Manny, he's been pretty lucky to have a pretty ridiculous trio of studs behind him for most of his career, with Albert Belle and Jim Thome in Cleveland and Papi in Boston. But here's some evidence that he's just a damn good hitter regardless of his protection:

- Several "experts" have argued that Manny is one of the greatest right handed hitters in the baseball history.

- He still mashed in his first year with the Red Sox with an aging Dante Bichette as his cleanup hitter.

- Off steroids, out of a hitters park, out of a big lineup, as a 37-year-old in a new league, he's still mashing.

Moving on, the only reason I knew that crap about Holliday is because I'm an A's fan first. Which is, I guess, why I've been one of the more patient ones when it comes to rebuilding.

Andy probally made a 8-year $130 thousand dollar offer to Holliday.

The Orioles are not going to sign a big name for years to come. I am tired of getting my hopes up.

Here's the thing, the Orioles don't need another outfielder and I've heard Holliday's defense is pretty shoddy. He's a solid player but not really a guy you'd want to grossly overpay for AND he seems to hit a lot better in the NL than the AL based on his time with Oakland. I'm not saying he'd stink up the joint I just don't think he'd be worth the money.

I can't get over that MacPhail feels no shame for lying to us over and over. He really believes that we buy his stale message. He's leaving to take Selig's spot anyway so what does he care?

I would love, just once, for MacPhail to say we will go after a free agent. These low-ball offers that would never be accepted do not fool the fans.

You are a disgrace for lying to us Andy and until you change you deserve no respect.

The FoxSports.com report came from Tracy Ringolsby.

"Tracy Ringolsby is a Hall of Fame baseball writer. He is in his 34th year covering Major League Baseball, is a co-founder of Baseball America, and appears on pre- and postgame shows for Colorado Rockies games"

I believe him.

Marcus -

In regard to Holliday's numbers in Oakland, refer to my 3:39 PM post.

If the birds let Tex get not only away, but in the same division why not just stand back and let the yanks and sox win for the next 5yrs while the O's have all this young good talent. Get some damn pitching or maybe get Cal to run the show, With the big A running things I may never see a run at the title again.

Eddie in NYC,

Yeah, I wanna know what happened here too. Personally, I think this one is on Ringolsby for not naming his source! Journalists often receive information on condition of anonymity, but it's their responsibility to do the homework and not write it if they don't trust the source. Ultimately you're still responsible for what you report. Remember Dan Rather?


not brooks,

Zrebiec does give a source--MacPhail himself, and that's more than Ringolsby provided.
I don't see how knowing the method of communication adds any validity.

Jack,

So Andy is lying and this is all a conspiracy. But if he really believes we are buying his stale message, why the need to employ so many "warehouse posters"?

Holliday will get a contract similar to Bay when all is said and done, unless he takes a one-year deal somewhere and tries for a bigger payday next off season.

I'm still pissed about Teix. What were they thinking offering him less than the Yankees? It makes no sense. When you're a non-contender you have to offer MORE money. It seems especially important given the dearth of big bats on the market this year and next.

Holliday is our last possibility this year. Who's out there next year? Derrek Lee? He had a good year in 2009, but he's old and is also going to want a lot of money. You can't keep waiting for a player's price to come down, bc from where I'm sitting they only go up.

"Zrebiec does give a source--MacPhail himself, and that's more than Ringolsby provided."

Jonathan -

You're right.

My pipe dreaming got in the way of my logic.

Of course theres no validity to that report, you dont have to tell us Andy, we know your MO. You only make offers to the second tier FAs and its never for that much unless you know that a higher offer is already in like with Tex...but thanks for clearing it up....hey maybe we can get to 75 wins this year?

Jonathan- It is people like you that keep the Orioles where they are. You buy into this garbage plan MacPhail says he has. Look up the definition of insanity, then look in the mirror. The O's have been doing the same thing for OVER A DECADE!!!!

What evidence is there that the O's will ever compete? They have young prospects, BFD, so do a lot of teams.

Holliday is not worth more than 8 years $80 million. Keep the cash to sign a real big bat next year.

Sez Marcus: the Orioles don't need another outfielder

But that's not why Holliday would be pursued for an orange and black uniform. The O's DO need a bat, a big one. And he brings that. (And I'll argue Jones, Markakis and Reimold offer plenty of protection.)

Add Holliday and you can more easily move Pie and Scott. Scott can go for prospects. Pie can be part of a play for A-Gon.

Adding Holliday and Gonzalez to the O's lineup, and I'd expect to see the O's in the post-season. Without them (with Reimold and Snyder), well ... it'll be another good year for Boog's Beef.

Wayne I love your comment about this on the previous Orioles thread how AM makes it look like hes going after FAs but in reality its purely for attention and hype.

I hope the Nats sign Holliday somehow just so that the Orioles may be forced to get some real players!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bill in Salisbury

I have to comment on this post you made:

Holliday is not worth more than 8 years $80 million. Keep the cash to sign a real big bat next year.


Well I hate to break it to you but the Orioles strategy for about the last decade was to save the cash and get a bat next year!

Glad that Holliday is not coming here - the $$ is too ridiculous. Let's wait at the end of the season to see how many more HR's and RBI's that Holliday ends up with more than Reimold or Markakis.

Sure the O's need to add a bat - but not at these numbers when its not a corner infielder.

What the typical yokel oriole fan needs to understand is that all teams have prospects and a local hype machine similar to this blog and MASN that make local fans think players and prospects that are in reality not so good gives the players the illusion they are much better than they are so that management can save money. This kind of deception gets fans to focus more on the ballpark, beer and the food etc more then what’s important on the major league level Ws and Ls and creates a more expensive minor league feel. The Orioles have become a sad and pathetic franchise with no chance at all of competing in 10 more years. Macphail will be commish soon and the younger Angelos will take over and eventually move the team.

Of course there is no validity to this report! We are talking about the Baltimore Orioles!! We trade good players for prospects only!

Dave Taylor,

I don't see Holliday taking a one yr deal. The market is thin this yr so his services will come at a premium. Supply and demand.

Garry,

I'm not sure about the dearth of big bats in next yr's FA class. The field will thin out some, but it currently includes Mauer, V.Martinez, C.Pena, Pujols, Ty Wigginton, M.Ramirez. . . I could go on, but you can check it out yourself. http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/09/2011-mlb-free-agents.html

John in Conn

LOL!!! You are crazy! Holliday would actually make this whole team better and the money is a total non factor in case you were not aware we have the 26th payroll in MLB out of 30 yeams! There is no way AM is going to part with the overrated prospects to land A-Gon so this is our big shot to get a real young power bat.

Who were you hoping we get Delgado? Loser!

John in Conn
You must be a Red Sox fan happy you wont have to play him in the AL East.

The baseball intelligence of some of these comments is unimpressive, to say the least.

Guys,
I have been thinking and have a serious plan. Andy Macphail still has connections at Wrigley so what we need to do is make a deal. The Cubs do not want to play against a Cardinals team with both Albert and Holliday again this season so we make the Cubs a deal. We take advantage of their rivalry get money from them to help us to land Holliday. The only part of the deal though they have to take Luke Scott and Wiggy for the money they give us to land Holliday. Perfect scenario they get Holliday out of the division for a fraction of his contract and we get rid of some serious dead weight.

It would be so nice to add a power bat to our lineup without having to give up one of our young pitching prospects. I'm not sure who is going to be out there on the free agent market in the next two years but if it doesn't look good then our only chance of landing someone good will be through a trade and that will cost us multiple prospects.

When is our time going to come as Orioles fans? Sometimes I just feel like crying while years ago I just wanted to beat the living crap out of you know who. With all the horrible things going on in the world, sports can make us forget about that stuff and bring joy to our lives. Not if you're an Orioles fan though.

Seriously, how nice would it be to get home from your crappy job where you make hardly no money and can hardly pay your bills and turn on the tube every night and watch the Orioles win games and world series titles?

J,
I looked at that list. You're right about Pena, I could go for him. Otherwise, Mauer is staying in Minnesota, we won't make a play for Martinez bc of Wieters, Pujols is going to stay with the Cards, Manny wants to play for a winner. I love how you threw Wiggy in there. I laughed when I saw that too.

Homer,

I hear you man but YOU KNOW WHO whored out baseball here a decade ago and made us a novelty act of the past. My advice move to a more baseball friendly metro with more open jobs that fit your skill sets because life is too short to wait around on the Orioles.
.

Homer -

It would be nice to come home from my job, where I make a bit more than enough money to pay the bills, to watch the O's win.

But then I would remember that Brian Roberts makes twice as much money in one game than I make in a year, regardless of how he performs. So I'd probably just get bitter.

As far as when our time is coming, I'm going to have to say never. Unless Andy and Angelos open up the checkbook and show us that they're willing to complement the young talent with guys like Matt Holliday.

If anything big happen I want it to be acquiring Prince Fielder. But I know that isn't happening. Holliday for 8 years I wouldn't ever want to see that.

Gil,

Thanks, but I don't need to list 10 reasons why they wouldn't sign a proven productive player (Holliday or whoever).

I will say it's about continued deception, and I will say that the warehouse has the media in their back pocket.

Oh, you'll hear dissention from the media from time to time, mainly for appearance sake. It's always softball treatment however.

Peter Angelos gave up on winning many years ago. He puts zero pressure on his son(s) to win and he brought in AM to string things out as long as possible. And that's exactly what AM is doing, with the help of the media to sell the warehouse bs.

Advertising dollars are hard to come by Gil, thus I get it! It's sad though, because the fans are being lied to every day.

Deep down Gil, you KNEW the Orioles would make a real offer to Holliday or any other proven player.

Everyone see TedB's 3:10 response. He nailed it better than I ever could....

whats going on with thecuban pitcher that worked out for teams in houston ,i havent herd much since are the Os still in the hunt?

I hadn't realized that Prince would be available after this season. I would LOVE to see him tee off at OPACY.

Garry -

He isn't.

2011 is Fielder's final arbitration year. He won't hit free agency until 2012.

Everyone: It's really easy to figure out who's a free agent, who isn't, and who's got a boatload of options.

Cot's Baseball Contracts is a good place to go: http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/

MLB Trade Rumors usually has a pretty exhaustive guide to upcoming free agents as well, but they only go year by year: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/09/2011-mlb-free-agents.html

DOnt forget dandy andy's slogan

"grow the arms, buy the (bargain) bats"

when he was quoted the orig reporter didnt hear the "bargain" part

MacPhails not going to do anythin crazy like spend money.

Last yr, the O's were the 5th most profitable team in baseball. Hes going for 1st (in profits) adn u cant do that going all crazy and adding expensive players in their prime. If they would've signed Dunn for 1b last yr and Holliday this yr, their payroll would still only be 10 million LESS than it was in 1998, 11 years ago. U know when gas cost a buck a gallon. Then we'd ahve a legit clean up hitter and a legit 40 hr guy. U might start winning with a line-up with a real 3 and 4 hitter. If the team started doing something insane like winning, they might have to (gasp) add payroll at the trade deadline to make a playoff run. Theres no way tehy wanted to be adding payroll during the season, tehy might lose their handout from the winning teams. Andy cant risk his welfare check by going all nuts and fielding a winner

They want to keep lowering the payroll every yr, thats the real "plan". one day the apologists will figure it out.

Holliday to left w Reimold in a package to San Diego would make WAY too much sense, so FORGET IT, AIN'T HAPPENING, JUST ANOTHER BORAS SMOKE SCREEN. This type of thinking is reserved for teams that do everything possible to win, like say, the Sawx and Yanks. The O's ARE BUILT TO TAKE YOUR MONEY while delivering a smattering of major league talent along with a huge helping of minor league talent. Its a tough piece of rawhide to chew, much like an overpriced, overcooked Pit Beef Sandwich at OPACY. Holliday by the way, is worth 15M-16M but not 18M, that would be telling your current stud, Markakis that Holliday is worth 7M more per yr. Certainly, not the case. And 8yrs! Yeh right! Offer him 6yrs, 97M and give him 2 days to think about it, then pull it off the table and move on. Reimold is a budding star!

jason -

I know nothing is going to convince you otherwise, especially given the fact that you've spouted that "5th most profitable" bit about 10,000 times in the past two weeks, but I have a hard time believing that Peter Angelos cares so little about winning.

In reality, I just think he has no idea what he's doing.

Back in the mid 90's, when Angelos was spending big and the O's were winning, Old King Peter decided he knew more about baseball than his General Managers did. Heck, it was his money that brought in guys like Palmeiro, Alomar, Key, Surhoff and the rest. He was the one that signed off on those deals, so, in the mind of a power hungry guy, it's easy to see how he thought he was responsible for building those winners.

Then came the meddling. Then came the awful General Managers. Then came the tailspin. And Angelos dug himself such a deep hole that it's been impossible to climb out of it. Especially since no one worth his salt, aside from Miguel Tejada, has been willing to associate himself with this organization.

But now, the organization is on the verge of something great. Now is the test. If Angelos doesn't give Andy the go ahead to do something now, or, at the very latest, next off season, I might agree with you.

But right now, I'm just not buying it.

You guys who consistently blame McPhail crack me up. You keep blaming him for not ponying up the money to sign a big free agent when we all know a decision such as that requires Angelos' blessing. The O's have made great strides in the time AM has been here and gave a time frame of 2010 to start seeing marked improvement. There was no way that we were going to go out and fill the team with quality players via free agency without breaking the bank. AM has pilfered quality players from several teams albeit prospects but finally there's some semblance of a competitive team that could be on the field next year. It's going to be another year of growing pains but I'm excited about the possibilities and was shopping for an away jersey last night. Towards the end of '09 Wieters was proving he belongs and should really take off in 2010. Reimold and Jones will only get better and the Crow had Pie hitting with confidence. Something he had little of when he came here. For those of you demanding that we go out and sign a big name, what does that do for the youth movement? We have both Snyder and Bell poised to join the club sometime in the next year with a treasure trove of young arms in waiting. The biggest problem facing the O's is going to be what to do with all of the talent as evidenced by the loss of Steve Johnson in the rule 5 draft. Why didn't we let Radhames Liz go before the draft and protect a young arm that the organization was so high on when the trade was made just a few months ago?! Anyway, as much as I don't want to see Holliday go to the Yankmees or Red Sux I can't see a reason to spend that kind of money when we still don't know exactly how the youngsters are going to perform. Pray for a healthy 2010 for all and things should take care of themselves. GO O's!!!

"Holliday by the way, is worth 15M-16M but not 18M, that would be telling your current stud, Markakis that Holliday is worth 7M more per yr. Certainly, not the case."

The Orioles paying Holliday $18M per is basically equal to a contending team paying him $15M per. Bad teams need to overpay to get elite free agents. Unless the O's take that first plunge on an elite guy like Holliday who will make the team better or all of the young players reach their potential at the same time in some crazy kind of best case scenario (a la Tampa in 2008), no free agent will ever come here unless he gets significantly more his market value.

As far as Markakis is concerned: Do you really think he'll care what the O's are paying Holliday? In 2011, 12 and 13, Nick will be making $10M, $12M and $15M. The guy isn't an idiot. He realizes that the contract he signed with the O's is a good bit less than he would have received on the open market. And besides, he'll be a free agent again when he's the same age that Holliday is now. I think he'd be excited to finally have a power bat for protection because it would give him a nice stat boost that'll help his case when he hits the market after the 2012 season.

Not Brooks,

Since you exhorted Macphail to sign Matt Holiday over Christmas, Pete's threads have lit up like never before. You struck a nerve and by reading the sentiments of the posters, the hope that was just starting to grow was ripped out from under the fans like a rug by Macphail's denial this afternoon.

People posting are angry, disappointed, and like Homer, truly hurt. They are tired of waiting, tired of being true blue to the plan, tired of being taken for granted.

The fans want a winner, and they don't want it in 2011, or 2012. The majority want it now.

Andy Macphail has been screwing around town now since 2007, and still the promise of winning is always"down the road", the time to sign the big bat is when"appropriate".

There will be those who still support Macphail. But as I read the posts, "plan" supporters are getting off the train one by one and demanding action on the part of Peter Angelos.

If this is the way it is to be from here on out, 2010 will truly be the summer of Andy Macphail's discontent..

C'mon Andy, start giving out huge contracts no matter what the players are worth! That's how all good teams get built!

"For those of you demanding that we go out and sign a big name, what does that do for the youth movement?"

Mrbigglw -

Signing Holliday doesn't do anything to the youth movement.

Start Holliday in left and Reimold at DH. Scott is traded for prospects and Pie remains as the fourth outfielder.

What changes?

And as far as youth goes, it's not like Holliday's ancient or something. Heck, he's only four years older than Reimold.

I'm frustrated, too, as is most everybody else who cares about Orioles baseball. But I cannot and will not believe that Angelos "doesn't care about winning." That's absurd. His mega-million dollar fortune came from WINNING, WINning, winning. Why do people think that suddenly when he is in arguably the most public position in the city of Baltimore that he doesn't care about winning? Ridiculous. Does he want to make money? Of course, he does. But not caring about winning? Please, find another horse to beat to death. I live in Colorado (Baltimore native) so about the only O's info I get is on this blog, but I'm growing weary of the same old refrain.

outgunned again fellas...this is just not a fair fight..LOL,

I'm not being sarcastic or anything,but, hey, Losers are people too!! Remember that.

i can't figure out where Anonymous stands on anything...Will the real Anonymous please stand up? Please?

And Brooksie, please don't cry. I could not stand to see another tear shed...

This has to be the funniest bunch of entries yet. I mean Wayne has an actual fan club! Kudos Pete!! Kudos Wayne!!

well Gil, the more I read these posts,the more I think this whole thing ends up back at my post-in-jest the other day. See I figure that once the guy makes a move, it won't be enough, and the whining and complaining will continue. And somehow the people on the blog will take credit for the guy doing something. There, my 2010 prediction.

not brooks,

Markakis is signed through 2014, not 2012.

You're absolutely right, Chris.

I meant to say 2013 at the end of the post, as I mentioned earlier that he'll be making $15M that season, but that would have been wrong anyway.

Thanks for the correction.

Funny how I told everyone where to find contract information in an earlier post and then preceded to screw it up myself 40 minutes later...

Jim,

It's not that I have a fan club. It's just that I have facts on my side.

Life in general is tough enough. There's stress all over the place. Baseball is suppose to be fun though!

Problem is, baseball is isn't fun in baltimore anymore....hasn't been for a long time

People don't need a world series (yet). They don't need the playoffs (yet). They just want more wins than losses.

We have zero reason to believe 2010 will be any different than 09'. Come the 2nd half of the season, the collapse will once again begin. When it does, the warehouse will 'spin' and the media will fall right in line.

The talk will then be about 2012! Yes, the warehouse has a Plan... It's just not what everyone thinks!

So no...... I don't have a fan club. Far from it! What I do have however, is a voice that has helped people to speak theirs,

The warehouse type bloggers no longer dominate these pages.


jim66,

Jim, you must be one tough SOB to infer that the fans who have been through 12 losing seasons going on 13, are whiners and complainers. Frankly, I think that the remaining fans in this town are in the process of deciding for themselves if they are being taken for a ride.

Jim, think about his scenario for a minute before you respond.

The fans experience 10 losing seasons in a row. The unpopular owner promises the fans that he is going to step aside and let an experienced baseball man take over.

A new GM comes aboard and starts trading veterens for prospects. The team continues to lose, but that's OK because the team is headed in the right direction. That's the spin from the organization and the local media, day in and day out

a few years go by, many fans give up, but the hard core remains. Finally the ether starts to wear off and the loyal fans start to ask, when is the team going to win?. The rebuilding thing was not supposed to be open ended. Why can't the team bring in some top notch major league talent now, so that when we take our family to the park the orioles have a chance to win?

In my opinion, that is what is happening now Jim. The fans have been patient for 12 years. Don't ask them to wait for 13. You may not like the answer.

Wow Gil,,,, awesome post!

The warehouse type bloggers no longer dominate these pages.

Posted by: wayne

#1 - You're not a blogger. I'm not a blogger. We're commenters. This is the comments section of Pete's blog. Bloggers have their own pages that people frequent because they are interested in what that person has to say. Maybe you should consider actually starting your own blog somewhere else. Or see if the Sun will hire you.

#2 - I think I'm one of the most positive commenters on here, but you calling me a "warehouse type" (implying that somehow I or anyone else who likes the direction of the team is employed by the warehouse) is ridiculous and offensive. Why am I not allowed to have my own opinion without you referring to me as a corporate whore in not so many words?

#3 - The reason we don't post as much is because trying to talk to you is pointless. All you do is laugh in our faces and call us losers, no matter what kind of stats or projections by people outside the organization we present. You spout your OPINIONS as if they were fact and call it the truth even though you present no tangible evidence. You never bring anything to the table as far as interesting discussion goes. You're a bully/troll with no objective other than promoting your own psychotic rant over and over and over. Frankly, it's tiring. It's not interesting. And really, it's quite pathetic.

Chris,

Thanks for the blogger/commenter distinction.

Note: Please find where I called you or anyone a loser. I do suggest that people demand winning however. I'm sure you see the difference.

And please know..... I don't need to you write to me.... Have never asked of such in fact.

Yes Chris, I rant about winning over and over and over. If that makes me a troll and psychotic, then so be it.

I'll be sure to inform all my friends who've been sitting all around me at games for years that they're psychotic trolls. Since they're mostly much worse than I about winning, it'll at least be good for a great laugh.

Thanks for the comment, commenter,

And please see Tedb's comment earlier today. Was better than anything I could have said.

peace!

Hi to Chris in Hawaii,

I wish I was there. A Greenland Block is setting up on the East Coast and the weather here will be coming straight from the Arctic for the next month. My Brother in law borrowed my snow blower last year and never brought it back and my boys and I had to shovel 16 inches of snow last week.

Chris, I am interested in your take on the Orioles and Macphail. You are a long way away, yet your posts reveal the heart of a true fan. You see what has happened to the franchise and the attendance over the last 10 years. Have you been back here in a while, and how do you get most of your information?

I am curious because sometimes it seems the long distance fans are the most loyal. Is that loyalty out of nostalgia and do you really believe that the team is headed in the right direction?

What happened to "Buy the bats and grow the arms"
What bats are they buying....LIARS

What happened to "Buy the bats and grow the arms"
What bats are they buying....LIARS

mcphail came in summer 07. He's moved the veterans near FA and replinished some propspects for the minors.

Im actually encouraged by the progress of some of the youngsters. Encouraged enough to say BRING THEM SOME HELP. I ahve this funny feeling that the Os are going to actaully get out to a decent start. Unfortunattely I see their inexpereince and lack of depth to cause another second half swoon. A swoon that could be prevented if some elite help is brought in to bolster the roster.

At some point, you got to make your move, Im sorry but nexy year doesnt work for me. NO MORE NEXT YEARS.

At some point, you got to stop worrying about trying to make the perfect acquisition and start building a winner as though your hair is on fire. U can be proactive without being reckless. Seriously.

The perfect is the enemy of the good

Tex and our own Pete Schmuck, all have said that he didn't want to play here. If and that's a big IF (hence the caps) they did offer Holliday 8 yrs/130 mil and he ends up with say 8 yrs/140 mil and the O's don't budge with their offer, I will say they messed up, but not on Tex because it's not an apples to apples comparison.

I know a lot of people say we have enough outfielders, but Holliday is special and given that he has a good relationship with both Roberts and Atkins, this could be huge plus I still feel that Reimold could play 1B with no trouble at all. He is very athletic. Gibby and Wiggy can play the OF and 1B so I don't find it to be much of stretch to think a guy like Nolan can do it and less running will certainly benefit his foot.

Do I think this is a long shot? Yes, but it's still fun to dream of how good this team could be without giving up any prospects and getting a power bat at the same time.

Love the Bordick signing, as I think Mike will be a Manager one day. Seems like catchers and short stops, makes the best Managers plus Bordick gave everything he had all the time so he wouldn't tolerate Wiggy running the bases like a jack a$$

Come on, everyone!!

You know who the Orioles' owner is.

It was a major accomplishment for the O's to sign Roberts and Markakis long term. Another longer-term, bigger money contract from the O's is just a fantasy.

Please come back to reality.

Wake up, it was only a dream.

Riemold is a righty. Righty's don't make the best first basemen.

It makes sense to go after Holliday>
Simply b/c the yanks and Red Sox are not bidding. It will keep price down> He could be part of the plan. Once piece at a time. We are being lied to every year while PA is pocketing millions from MASN. He must think we are stupid. I gave up 3 years ago. Wont support the team until they get serious

Again people,

AM has not, nor will he, make a real offer for Holliday, or any other proven veteran.

As for the 'buy the bats' statement..... It was pure deception. He never meant high priced bats Atkins is about all you'll get folks.

That's our new 'pay for the bats' slugger!

See TedB's 3:10 post!

..............................................................................................
Pete's reply: I suspect you'll be right until you're not, but you're total, redundant pessimism comes so naturally, I'm really curious to see how you react if things every do go right. I have an old friend who knows something about baseball fans who likes to say "Scratch a ripper, find a homer." You wouldn't spend so much time here spouting this much venom if you weren't deeply emotionally involved with this team. I hope you get the opportunity to cheer up someday.

I think Bay at $64/4 set the market for Holliday. No team in this market is going to give him 6-7-8 years. Those long deals never pay off (outside of ARoid).

Maybe Jones or Reimold or Wieters will surprise us and turn into a real slugger this year. We're bound to produce one of our own eventually.

Shamrock,

Im assuming you're refering to reimold throwing RH.

It doesnt/didnt seem to bother Tex, DLEE,Youkilis, Eddie Murray, Steve Garvey, etc, etc

I could go on and on

You want so desperately to excuse the warehouse and absolve them from accoutability that you're not even making sense with your reasons why we shouldnt add prime talent

Hi Shamrock,

The percentages favor a left handed first baseman to cover the hole and make throws to second going to the left. Boog Powell hit left handed and threw right handed and was one of the best first baseman defensively the Orioles ever had. He was an aberration.

Before evreyone gets excited about a potential Reimold move to first base, lets see if he can make the adjustments this year. He has a hole in his swing and it is the good fastball just above the waist.

I think Reimold will struggle early next year and I hope he can adjust. He is by no means a sure thing long term.

if people can say things more eloquently than you, kindly reference their comment and save the energy of both of us. then i'll know what you meant to say and would have read it already. that'll work. and it'll save your voice. yes, the voice you've given of so freely, 'that voice that has helped people to speak theirs'. Where the hell am, on the steps of the Supreme Court? The Lincoln Monument? Oh torch-bearer, the last time I checked we were talking about baseball, on a blog, and people could say whatever they wanted without feeling the need for being 'freed up'?

next, i'm not a tough SOB. I work for the warehouse, getting paid a salary none of you would believe. PA is not that cheap, is all I'll say. Jeez.

next, calling AM a disgrace, well that seems to be getting downright personal, and maybe something you'd like to tell him directly. Call me when you'd like to do that. Make a nice picture for the scrapbook. No, yours.

Gil, why are you so cranky? I'm trying to add a little humour to this most trying situation, as you and others have so completely beat to death over the last few days. Did you not understand my point?

The sillier it gets the more I like it...
Glass of silly anyone?

The warehouse is one of my favorite parts of OPACY. I hate to see it tarnished by conflating it with upper management. Can't you guys just write mgmt instead?

I mean, can you please use the term "mgmt" instead?

Hey Gil,

Sorry to hear about that cold, cold weather. I haven't seen snow for 10 years now. At this point, I have to put a jacket on when it gets down to 60 degrees.

I was born in Annapolis, but I moved to Hawaii at age 13 in 1991. I remember going to games at Memorial Stadium as a kid and Eddie Murray was my favorite player because I loved chanting "Eddie, Eddie, Eddie!" I was 5 in '83 when they won the series and I still remember that awful start to the '88 season. After I moved, I didn't get to see any games and so I drifted away for a bit. When I graduated high school in 1996, I went to the University of Hawaii and started following baseball again. I remember skipping class to watch the ALCS and being heart broken when that punk kid Jeffery Maier ruined my life for the year. I seethed about it 'til next season. Still, I was a pretty casual fan. I was young. My parents moved back to Maryland in 1998 and when I visited them the first time, I got to visit Camden Yards and I loved it! It made not having it here that much worse. Sometimes I think people there take for granted what they have with the O's, just like I'm sure I take being able to walk to the beach in 10 minutes for granted.

Anyway, when the O's losing started and continued, I couldn't figure out just what it was that was wrong. They were spending money on players whose names I knew. They even signed Albert Belle for Pete's sake! Why weren't the O's winning? After a while I started really, really hating Angelos because it seemed like he stopped trying. He wasn't going after all the big guys like he did in the past. I stopped following at all for a while.

Then right before MacPhail was hired, I got the job where I work now. Let's just say I have a lot of down time. I started reading a lot more on-line and I saw how the O's farm system seemed like a complete disaster. When MacPhail was hired, he really started turning not just the team, but the whole organization around from the ground up. Admittedly, a lot of the minor league success has to do with Joe Jordan coming over from the Marlins prior to that, but MacPhail impressed me right from the get go when he handed Wieters his signing bonus. Then when I was looking at a lot of the background on the Bedard trade before it happened, I saw a lot of Mariners fans really pissed off about it. I checked into the players we were getting and saw places like Baseball America touting some of these guys. Anyway, let's skip forward a few years to now or else this post is gonna get waaaayyyyy too long (too late).

I follow every game on MLB Gameday while I'm at work. We get FoxSports West on cable out here, so I get to see every game vs. the Angels on tv. I get to visit my parents once a year and always make sure the O's are in town so I can catch a game or two. This past season I got to wait through a 2 hour rain delay to see Bergesen's first major league game. I was really excited to see that! We had tickets for Thursday's game as well that week and gahd-dayum Adam Eaton was pitching. But I was happy to get to see another game and you know what? Eaton pitched into the 8th that night and the O's won! I think it was the only good game Eaton pitched for us.

Anyway, I check out MLBtraderumors everyday during the off season on a half-hourly basis. I check out Baseball America all year. I check out fangraphs. I read Roch's blog. I keep up to date with the minor league games as they're being played through MiLB.com. I watched the Arizona League's Gameday tracker for every Phoenix Desert Dogs game.

Basically, the organization has been in turn around since MacPhail came on board. The minor league affiliates have improved a lot. International signings and scouting have been better if not yet great. Yeah, all these improvements have yet to manifest in the major league team, but you can see where most of our promising talent just started making the majors last season. I understand that in the past, in this decade even, we've seen guys like Sir Sidney, Daniel Cabrera and Adam Loewen flop hard, but these guys coming up are a different breed. They're learning to win in the minors, as opposed to just playing for themselves on a crappy team. You have to breed winners amongst minor league competition to get winners at the major league level. We're just about there. I think with those moves that I suggested yesterday, we can get back to respectability this year and if everything clicks, 85-90 wins. From there, we can build and talk about contending. Not just for a year or two, but for the long haul.

I don't think Holliday adds seats at the yard. He just doesn't in my opinion. I'd rather pay to see Reimold than Holliday. I think he will put up better numbers this year anyway.
I think Andy will do what he has done since he got here. Make astute trades...continue to expand the depth at the minor league level and overall just continue the improvements at all levels of the organization. He'll sign a free agent with some big dollars when the right time comes.
I'd rather be a "warehouse posters" hopeful of lots of wins this season than the loser posters obsessed with the thought that we may not finish over 500. If over 500 is good enough for you, then yopu really have a loser mentality. AM is trying to build for a World Series run. You don't do that by over paying or by trading away top prospects for Agonz.

Hey Jason,
You don't respect busboys or people who deliver newspapers? Wow, any other jobs that don't meet your high standards of being worthwhile?


Go O's O's playoffs 2010 with Executive of the year Andy Macphail.....winner of 2 other World Series rings.....and that is a FACT

Posted by: not brooks | December 30, 2009 6:06 PM

Excellent source of contract information, not brooks. Hopefully, alot of posters/readers will spend some time there.

bf,

Astute trades? You mean like the one for Huff (who had one of the best years in O's history in 08') but AM waited too long to pull the trigger while he had value. That astute trade?

Or maybe you mean the astute trade for Sherrill? You know, that closer who was lights out before being traded last year?

Or are you always going to reference the the trades when AM first got here?

Just asking!

Oh, and as for those 2 rings you keep talking about? BF, that was when it was a different game. It might as well have been 50 years ago. You understand that, right?

Just asking!

..............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Wayne, you ought to just simplify this and save yourself some time on the internet. Everything that MacPhail has ever done right doesn't mean a thing, but his record the first couple years with a horrible team are totally relevant. His WS wins were too long ago and his good trades don't mean anything because he didn't trade Huff at the right time, though you would have ripped him a new rear end if he had traded Huff after that big season. You make some good points, but you don't have an ounce of fairness in you, which -- for me -- really hurts your credibility.

I think the Holliday rumor came from Boras. We all want a big bat, but the key is and always will be, pitching. IF the young pitchers turn out to be studs, the Orioles will win. If Matusz, Tillman, etc., etc., do not become studs, we won't win.

Patience, fellas. Patience.

ml

not brooks-
I've noticed that Matuszs', Weiters' and other rookies from '08's ML service isn't up to date on that blog. Would you happen to know an accurate source for ML service info? I can't find one so far...

Not knocking the blog you posted by the way..very useful.

Hi Chris in Hawaii,


Thank you for helping me understand how someone so far away could be so loyal. I have nothing to add tonight and I want to reflect on what you have said to assess my own feelings.

Eddie in NYC and Clayton Fletcher:

Thanks for your good posts. I share your concerns about the two conflicting reports.

Before we get all crazy about this Holliday situation, it would be nice to know exactly what's going on. Ringolsby is a major baseball writer; I would be willing to bet he didn't make his story up. At the same time, he provided no source. Did Boras leak it to him on condition that no source be given? The Sun's reporter, in turn, simply parroted MacPhail's denial without further investigation. Did the flat contardiction between the two accounts not bother anyone at The Sun?

So what happened? Where did the O's offer come from? Was it an informal exploratory discussion with Boras at the time of the Gonzalez contract meeting? Were the 8/130 figures floated there? Was there a caveat from AM that if that inquiry was leaked, he would deny it publicly? Did Boras leak it to pressure the Cards (likely)?
This matters, of course, because the ever-shrinking Orioles fan base might like to know whether their team made a significant offer to a star player, or didn't.

How about some more--and some more persuasive--information?

.............................................................................................
Pete's reply: This is borderline hilarious. Jeff went right to the source, and you criticize him for not digging deeper into the matter. Who do you think would know more about whether MacPhail made that offer? Boras, who's trying to get the Cardinals to up their price? If you're questioning Jeff's effort, you don't know Jeff, who is one of the best young reporters in the business.

"Riemold is a righty. Righty's don't make the best first basemen."

Albert Pujols, Derrek Lee, Jeff Bagwell, Jimmie Foxx and Harmon Killebrew do/did alright there as well.

That's got to be the worst argument ever to not move Reimold to first.

"I don't think Holliday adds seats at the yard. He just doesn't in my opinion. I'd rather pay to see Reimold than Holliday. I think he will put up better numbers this year anyway."

You're becoming more and more of a caricature of the eternal O's optimist with every post, bill.

Wayne
Yeah, I like both trades. We upgraded Sherrill this year and most likely got our power hitting 1st baseman for the next 10 years. Pretty good from where I sit. Huff was really a long term solution wasn't he? He really tore it up too didn't he?
Sorry, but it wasn't 50 years ago that AM won 2 WORLD SERIES rings. He's still only in his 50's I believe. So if he won them while in elementary school that would make him even more of a gennius wouldn't it. Don't like the trade involving Bedard either, huh?

"He'll sign a free agent with some big dollars when the right time comes."

That's the thing, bill. There's two big questions there:

1. When will that time come?

2. What if it never does?

What if Matusz, Tillman, Jones and Reimold don't progress in 2010 as we all hope they will? If those four don't make significant strides this coming season, I doubt the team will be much better than it was in 2009. If that's the case, will it be the "right time" to add Carlos Pena and Josh Beckett? Probably not, since now isn't the "right time" to add Holliday.

Here's the deal, bill: This team has all the young talent in the world right now. Now is the time to take a chance and speed up the rebuilding process. Right now, the team payroll sits at $53M. Even if they add Holliday and pay him $20M this season, the payroll will be $20M less than it was in 2007.

Now is the time, my friend. Now is the time.

Orioles just signed Steve Garvey to a 8 year contract to play 1st base.

Just got off the phone with Kevin Trembley, Dave's son. Kevin said that a Baltimore sun reporter called him, and that Dave said "I haven't heard anything". Then Dave proceeded to call Andy, and that Andy said there was no validity because the numbers were wrong, its 7/110. Dave told Kevin that Roberts and Attkins have been on the phone trying to get Holliday to buge, and also said we will know in the next week or so. Its "real close"

I'll let you guys know when I hear more.

bill frederick

Are you high? I dont really think you can say those trades worked out for the Orioles seeing that they still cant win games. My advice is to stop watching MASN all the trades Andy has made have been super hyped seeing that we still cant win shit.

I just hope that this isn't MacPhail's way of just making O's fans think that they're attempting to make real moves just to keep the fan base interested. From what it sounds like and seems like to me, MacPhail is moving swiftly in his plan for this team and I think that this could be the real deal and would be a big step in the right direction for this organization.

..............................................................................................
Pete's reply: I don't think Andy is doing anything of the kind. When he says, on the record, there's no validity to it, I would tend to believe him, since it would be to his advantage to let people think he did make that offer.

Count me among the folks who think its crazy that Angelos doesn't want to win. The guy made his money winning. I have a theory that his desire to win is so strong, its a detriment in that every negotiation is life and death. That upping an offer from say 5yrs/25 million to 5yrs/27 million is a lost battle. It served him well in battling MLB for 'nationals' money. Far fetched? maybe...but i don't think out of the realm. How would you have liked to be one of his sons growing up negotiating your weekly allowance? WOW!

.............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Cush, I agree. The people who think Angelos doesn't want to win don't know a thing about him. The guy signed Albert Belle against all advice because he didn't want the Yankees to sign him. The fall of this team was because he wanted to win in the worst way and proceeded to run the team that way, too.

bill f,

b4 i was only joking about you being on meth,after reading more of your nonsensical posts masquerading as coherent, im starting to think i stumbled on to something true

As for AM's WS's maybe thats the problem, hes living off of his reputation because it sure not his recent results.

Since his WS, he has had 12 of 18 losing seasons with 9 seasons losing 90 gms or more. In other words every other yr his teams lose 90 gms or more. 1 1st place season, 9 last place seasons. Real productive there

I would try to explain the differences in the landscape of the game from when AM won, but Im sure that you do not have the ability to comprehend it, so i wont waste my time.

Focus on the WS, but ignore the wretched results of the last 18 dismal seasons, thats good thinking there. you're a friggin genius.

.............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Jason, you can make your case without the name-calling. Ease up a little.

Hey Barry who wrote at 11:05 pm: please add an initial to your name. I've been contributing to this blog since Pete began it. I'd rather not have your thoughts appear to have been from me.

Thanks.

Chris in Hawaii,

Well said. Respect and love your loyalty. I was 7 in '83- the first year my dad took me and my brother to see the O's.

No doubt we have all been hurt as O's fans for more than a decade w/the sick, painful losing. But I completely agree w/Chris that there has been a drastic change in organizational talent since AM came on board. He is building the right way- piece by piece. Honestly, it really sickens me to hear all the AM bashing. He is arguably the best GM we have ever had, and is unquestionably the BEST hire PA has ever made. Hang in there everyone!

And here's to hoping PA DOES NOT meddle but continues to let AM do what he was brought here to do! If so, we will be winning really soon!

bf..... others answered for me quite well. Thanks all!


Pete, I support the O's, and have so for years!

Of my 81 game plan, I go to about 30 games per year. Years ago, when i couldn't attend, my tickets were hot items (i never sold them - rather gave them away).

Today however, there is so little interest, one can hardly give away great tickets.

I've sat with the same group for many years, and we're all very upset, and none of us see a light at the end of the tunnel.

We love baseball, but we know AM has yet to come close to assembling a team that can even win half of their games.

Yes, there are names of developing players, and names of prospects. Some seem like sure things, but others are a pure crap shoot.

They will not spend Pete. How can you defend being 26 of 30 in a market the size of baltimore? How can you not write about their lack of spending?

You know this team still has huge holes, and you help the warehouse come up with excuses, like 'who was out there to get this year'?

AM is unbelievably conservative and my friends and I worry that you and others in the media will stand by him even if this team still isn't winning in 2011.

How can you ask the fans of baltimore to continue buying what they're selling, when all they keep selling is Losses?

When does it stop Pete?

So yes, I support the Orioles! I put my money where my mouth is each year. And guess what? One of these years, my friends and I will be wrong. At some point, they have to win more games than they lose, right?

Just asking.....

Go Schmucker!

Thank you for all the wonderful examples of Big League Right hander first basement. I am aware they exist, however, the simple fact is that Lefties make better first basemen. Defensively, it is awkward and move difficult to hold runners on with a righty on first. Riemold isn't exactly smoothly coordinated. Plus, no one in the organization has ever suggested moving him there.

Jones is a hell of an athlete, why not move him to short? Wieters can throw in the mid 90's, he should close!

Yes, jason C, I like to waste time on this blog talking baseball because of my higher duty of excusing the Vast Warehouse Conspiracy.

I like to talk baseball, not debate moronic conspiracy theories about Peter Angelos and the inanimate Warehouse. Nobody likes HATERS. Yeah, the team sucks, but were all still fans and like to think the future is bright, otherwise, whats the point. Just turn the channel and cheer for something els. all of the downtrodden negative nancy's on here should take to more productive cathartic things such as: cutting, watching Keith Olbermann, self-waterboarding, etc.

Brooks... a lot of those guys play first base because there is/was no where else to put them. Pujols can't handle third anymore, Kilebrew played less than half his career games at first, Derrek Lee is 6'5" and a big target and Jimmie Foxx player before they invented the gold glove. As for the other righties, I bet they wish they could have been lefties.

its like putting Luke Scott on first. Riemold would be awkward. He's gangly and not quick. He's a left fielder.

They tried to put Jay Gibbons on first, similar type fielder, awkward. That didn't work out an he's even left handed. Its not an MLB 2010 for Xbox transition, can't just stick him there and expect it to work out.

Reimold, Jones, Markakis, Pie. Two lefites, two righties. Power, speed, defense. What do we need Holliday for? The guy's not as good as what the O's will have to pay him. We need a first baseman. Maybe the idea is to sign Holliday and then package up Reimold and some others to San Diego for Gonzales, providing they could extend Gonzales contract. If something like that isn't going on behind the scenes, then the Orioles should sit tight with their money until the guy they need comes along. People keep wringing their hands over getting a 40-homer guy. We've got one - watch Weiters this year. In the meantime, Michael Aubrey will do a nice defensive job over at first and probably hit about 12-15 home runs and 25-30 doubles.

Wayne:

This is a new level of lunacy, even for you. We get it. We all get it. You're a winner, and you love winners and winning. You feel the need to post the same comment over and over and over again. This is your right. God bless the internet.

But how do you get off asking the owner of the blog, a respected sportswriter, why he won't write an article saying what YOU want him to say? Let me help you out here:

1) did it ever occur to you that he does not share your opinion?

2) did it ever occur to you that as a professional sports writer he likes to be viewed as rational and sensible? Or that he would like to remain as such?

3)did it ever occur to you that as one of the most prominent O's beat writers, he might like to be able to get a quote from McPhail or anyone in the front office sometime in the future?

4)did it ever occur to you that maybe you are flat out wrong, and perhaps something that might just surprise you is in the works?

I know this reason will fall on deaf ears, but I have always assumed that as someone else who cares about the Orioles and likes to post frequently on these blogs, that we would want to try to use our wits more often than not so that the others here would not immediatley dismiss what we have to say as mindless jibber jabber.

You always say that you have the FACTS on your side, but back in reality none of us are qualified to speak about McPhail (or Angelos's) true intentions. Or how much money they are willing to spend. Or how much they care about winning. Or what their immediate and distant goals/plans for this franchise are.

Lately while reading the blog, I've found myself wanting to say something but realized that there is nothing new to add to the discussion right now. We've got about 90days or so til the start of the season. We're all going to have to just wait and see what happens.

And in all seriousness Wayne, perhaps you should take some of the other commentor's advice and start your own blog. I think you would surely get a following and you'd probably enjoy it.

Pete,
Your coming to the defense of a colleague is understandable. However, your response still doesn't explain the contradiction in the two stories, a contradiction which I think, as a reader/commenter of your blog, I have a right to respond to. I never said that Jeff was wrong to go to MacPhail or that his account of MacPhail's denial was inaccurate. What I did say was that that denial raised more questions than it answered and that Jeff might then have tried to resolve the contradiction, perhaps by calling Ringolsby and asking him where he got his information, perhaps by other means. Surely what's important here is for the truth of what's really happening in this negotiation to come to light.

Jeff (the blogger),
Thanks for your post at 11.02 p.m., which helped clarify the offer, and shed an interesting light on what's happening. Would love to know more if/when you find out more.

.............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Reporters do not ask other reporters who their sources are. Jeff, I'm sure, tried to call anyone who could confirm that offer -- including Scott Boras. Everyone is self-interested, but he got the best attributable information available. As an experienced fan, you should know that such rumors are difficult to confirm or totally debunk.

Gil:

Tell me your 6:48pm post was a joke. A poster on here, a very good one I might add, makes a comment and it turns into the spark that lit the flame of revolution. It's a flame burning so hot that "The fans want a winner, and they don't want it in 2011, or 2012. The majority want it now." (Doesn't that describe every last fan in baseball)

Not only that but, ""plan" supporters are getting off the train one by one and demanding action on the part of Peter Angelos. If this is the way it is to be from here on out, 2010 will truly be the summer of Andy Macphail's discontent."

You're taking yourself way too seriously. Take a few long deep breaths Che and get a grip.

djph:

See 10:09pm Dec 30 post and reply. Read to end.

Actually Shamrock, Wieters did close at Georgia Tech I believe.

Also Jason C. I would take 9 90 loss seasons and 1 world series title over 10 wildcard births with no world series any day of the week. I am pretty sure 99% of baseball fans would agree with me. Being slightly above average consistently doesn't even begin to match up with winning it all.

Based on the info in Jeff's post at 11.02 pm, what the O's are offering (7/110, or 15.7/yr)and what Holliday/Boras want (18+/yr) are so far apart that it seems pretty clear that this isn't going to happen. So let's forget about it and move on.

There are some powerful 1B FAs available next year. Meanwhile, the O's could do worse than to give Aubrey a real, extended try-out--a whole year at first base. If he stays healthy, he might surprise--good defense and a steady bat (maybe .300, 15HR, 80 rbi).

We have 3 very good outfielders--Markakis, Jones, Reimold--and a very good alternate--Pie. All can hit, all can field. I think we should stay with that and see what happens. Once again, the results might be very good, especially if Reimold stays healthy and gets 500+ at bats.

The offensive problems, as I see them are at DH, SS, and back-up catcher, and team-wide against LH pitchers. The SS we can't do anything about, at least for now. I think a power RH bat at DH (to platoon with Scott) should be a priority, as should a back-up C who can hit LH pitching. (Keep in mind that, given DT's lineup habits, the back-up will play 50+ games.) If AM can shore up those two positions with short-term hires, in my opinion the offense will be above average and score enough runs to win maybe 10-12 more games than this year.

The rest is up to the pitching, which might still be a roller coaster ride at times, but maybe a slightly less violent one than this year's.

Overall, with some breaks, maybe 78-80 wins. Great? No. Enough to build on next winter?
Maybe.

This is the most overblown response to a calculated answer ever.

It's obviously a dog and pony show, but the question is why hasn't he signed if the Cards are the only serious bidder left? The Sox and Yankees are both at thier self imposed budget for 2010 and the Mets got Bay.

Once he's signed somewhere, I think the next phase will start for McPhail on the trade side. He waited for the non-tender period, made a couple moves and Holliday signing basically ends the FA season unless you count the cripple bin.

I'm still not all that worried for a couple reasons:

#1 McPhail knows his career plans live and die with the O's. Even if there is no pressure from the Angelos family to win (which financially makes no sense), he would probably want to work elsewhere at some point and "the plan" has to pay off for the O's for him to get somewhere other than early retirement or becoming baseball broadcasting's Matt Millen. You don't become Commissioner by taking a franchise that was in the toilet already and being the one to flush it down even more.

#2 Right around February is when the GM's of teams that aren't "the 5th most profitable" are under he gun to pay players they can't afford for another year. Suddenly the wish lists from November shrink up like they just jumped in the Polar Bear Plunge.

#3 I still like the internal core of players. I'm not tricking myself into dreaming of being the next '08 Rays, but I don't see how the 84 win & 3rd place '09 Rays are that much more impressive on paper than the current '10 O's roster.

Anyway, off to bed I go.

Tracy Ringolsby is "not" a "Hall of Fame" baseball writer. He was given an award "at" the HOF, but is NOT enshrined there.

http://dir.yahoo.com/Recreation/Sports/Baseball/History/Former_Players/Hall_of_Famers/Broadcasters_and_Journalists/?b=0

So, put away your poison pens and get your facts straight. Holliday is NOT worth what he is asking. The O's outfield is fine, and may be even more than so, if some will give it a chance to develop.

Go O's!, Go Andy!

I don't think Holiday is the right guy to overpay for. I'd like LaRoche at a reasonable price, or what about Guerrero in an Abreu 2009 type deal?

bob c.,

Good morning Bob. So, you thought that maybe I got caught up in my own hyperbole, huh? I saw that someone on the blog nominated you for the "most patient man" award for 2010.

Bob, when you mention the Orioles to the casual fan in this town, the first thing that comes out of their mouth is" They suck". The next time you come to town, try it on 50 random people and you will get 40 "They Suck's". I admit it's not a scientific survey but I believe it.

The only people who care or even know about the plan are Andy Mcphail's family, Oriole employees, and about a dozen hardy posters on this blog. And Pete, who launched this format so that dysfunctuional Oriole fans could engage in group therapy.

I may be guilty of exxageration, because if the Orioles lose another 90 games in 2010, there won't be enough interested local fans left to run Macphail out of town.

Pete, I know Jeff Zriebeck is an excellent reporter and I am not questioning him. I was just wondering if you know Ringolsby at all and if so, what would be your opinion of why he would put his name on this story if it wasn't true. Especially with the details of MacPhail and Angelos offering to meet with him in Texas. It just seems like too much detail to be completely fabricated.

............................................................................................
Pete's reply: I didn't say it was fabricated. I have great respect for Tracy and he got it somewhere. Jeff then went to the source and it was denied. If the O's made the offer, why would MacPhail so categorically deny it, since letting people believe it was true would be better for the team?

This is hillarious and just shows where this blog goes and has gone. Stop and ask yourself, does ANYONE, O's fan or not believe AM and PA have it within them to make this kind of offer? Get real, I thought it was an April Fools joke the minute I heard it! Maybe 1 year at $8M, but for an average OF with a good bat? Not in a million years, this team isn't about winning or being competitive, it's about making money!

djph,

Thanks for the post! Very well done!

Just a couple things......

Did it ever occur to you that the Orioles are one of the biggest advertisers of the Sun?

Did it ever occur to you that I want to be wrong? That I want to go to my yearly seats knowing I'll see competitive baseball from the home team? That I'd like to think I'm not always wasting my money?

Did it ever occur to you that you're wrong about PA and AM? That PA and sons do not care about winning or spending, and that they brought in AM because there's no one more conservative in the game today?

And has it occurred to you that you'll be watching losing baseball yet again this year? That the only reason it won't be history making for consecutive losing seasons is because there's a team in Pittsburgh?

Has it ever occurred to you that most people who support this team are NOT like you? That they don't share your beliefs about the team in any way? That they understand why this team will NOT spend? They they understand there is still no semblance of a winning team?

Do you truly understand how this organization has fans like you wrapped around their little fingers, hoping for continued ignorance?

Again, thanks for the post! Call me a hater or whatever other name you'd like. Thing is, I do have the facts on my side....and I wish I didn't!

I have followed the O's my 33 years here on this earth and I have always supported the team and most of its decisions. The past couple of years have really soured me. Everyone on here complains and moans when the Yankees or BoSox go out and sign someone. Why can't the O's go out and do that? The last time they did that was Tejeda. I find it amusing when people say he isn't worth that much or we shouldn't pay that much. How many years have we had a below average payroll (probably past 5 or 6 years)? Why can't we go out and sign a guy that might not be Texeira, but he can sure damn help out the offense. And people say our outfield is already set for the next 5 years. Is it a bad problem to have too many players that can play the game at a high level. I have been on Mcphail's side since he came here but this s-it is getting old. Go out and get some ballplayers to make this team respectable instead of some other teams home park.

Huh,

I just love this stuff, the O's depending on where you sit, are in various stages of SUCKDOM! There are those who are convinced AM has the plan to lead out of the wilderness, there are those who believe the O's only want to make money, those that think either no plan exists or the plan sucks, those that don't believe the O's will spend $$ necessary to be competitive let alone win. All fair assessments.

A couple of years ago, a colleague drop a line on me that I despised very much so at the time "it is what it is". Hated it! But as lifes events go on, it is a classic. The O's are what they are, their record and it's gone the wrong direction for too long. How can ANYONE, continue to make excuses for these guys unless your a glutton for abuse and enjoy losing!

So my new years resolution for the O's, while we have seen progress in the minors, the draft and player development, lets quit kidding the fans, spend some real money your in AL East.

For AM: Nice couple of trades dumping Tejada, Bedard and Hernandez, but were still in last place with no signs of moving out without spending some big bucks!

For our beloved sportswriters, stay off the Kool Aid and like good umpires call it as you see, this team sucks, has made some significant strides in the draft, player development but the MLB on field product relative to the rest of the highly competitive division isn't even keeping up!

To my colleagues on this blog, keep it up, all of it, to think during the holiday (neither Matt or Roy), a dead period much like the chances of the O's signing Matt (dead or never was) that there is still this much interest for a team ALMOST as pathetic as the Pittsburgh Pirates is amazing!

To PA: which by the way is the state I hail from and we have a saying in PA, Crap or get off the pot. Either do the right thing, reinvest in this proud franchise or get out! Just because MLB is paying you and your getting NY Yankee tax money and the MASN money, you have neglected your loyal fans for far too long!

And to all, a very Happy New Year!

Well looks like the O's are out of the Chapman race also... Typical O's offseason which will be followed ny a typical Orioles record of close to 100 Ls. Good job Orioles way to get it done! Go Andy! Buy another house and trip to the Caymons! Buy another Yacht! Keep giving us bad Oriole teams but sell us on hope and being stupid!!

Andy has a yacht? Pete, could you confirm? My day depends on it.

Here, watch as I post a couple of things...

Did it ever occur to someone that a couple is 2?

Did it ever occur to someone that their stupendous run of repetitive rants is really tiring?

See, 2. that was easy.

This would be 3, and wrong.

Did it ever occur to someone that barking about winning doesn't separate you from anyone on this blog, as no one on here, regardless of their stance, has said that they enjoy or want the Orioles to lose?

Duh,
Did it ever occur to everyone else as it has to me that some posters like Jim66 who you can't tell if they want the O's to win, because they only seem to write about others rants (ie,,, thats what a blog is) and never forward an original thought about the subject at hand??? Duh!

The worst thing about all this is that we know that Angelos has the money to pay Holliday and we know that he's been willing to spend it in the past.

So what's the hold up?

Are they waiting for the better FA class that's coming up next winter? Sorry, fellas, but if you don't make a big splash now, it's going to be pretty tough to sign a Carlos Peña and a Josh Beckett after the 2010 season.

The fact is that this team could easily afford to pay Matt Holliday $18M per year. If they added that salary to this year's payroll, it would bump the total up to $71M. $71M! That's about $20M less than PA payed the joke that was the 2007 team!

Moving on to next year, let's say that Carlos Peña costs $12M per and Josh Beckett goes for another $18M. Subtract Kevin Millwood's $9M and add that $30M and you've got a $92M team, which probably jumps up to about $105-115M depending on what happens with the shortstop position and arbitration raises.

So, basically what I'm trying to say is that if PA was willing to pay $70M for fourth place teams 10 years ago and $93M for a fourth place team in 2007 what's the issue with paying $70M for probably a third or fourth place team in 2010, especially if it'll help bring in other players that could finally lead this team back to respectability?

I know I'm pipe dreaming again and asking questions that can't be answered, but that's where I'm at with this team. I want answers and I want results. After 12 years, I don't think that's too much to ask for.

"Did it ever occur to someone that their stupendous run of repetitive rants is really tiring?"

Jim -

Regardless of stance, how is anyone here not being repetitive?

Wayne thinks that the O's will never spend to acquire proven major league talent, so he rants about that.

Jason thinks that Angelos is only out to make money, so he rants about that.

I think that the O's should sign Holliday so that they can kill about 50 birds with one stone, so I rant about that.

You think that the O's should stay the course and not deviate at all from the plan, so you rant about that.

It doesn't matter what we're talking about, fella, we're all ranting.

Micah... I know that about Wieters, that was part of the joke at the people who think we can just flip Reimold to first with the click of a mouse.

I'm with Not Brooks on this one! Spend some money. It's not like Holliday couldn't DH or move to DH. Does anyone really think Luke Scott is the answer anywhere except as a bench player and pinch hitter? Or Wiggy, is anyone but a last place team playing this guy regularly? So were taking a shot at Atkins who is not a 4 or 5 hitter. Jones if hitting regularly is probably our 3 hitter and Nick is probably a 5 hitter but we need 4 hitter in the worst way. Last year Adam Dunn and everyone's favorite Mark Texieria ( a once in a generation free agent) and we sat those out! We've strung along for too long, rumors come out were talking to agents and everyone gets the players. Then we sign those cheap guys no one else wanted to fill out our roster!

Holliday will never live up to an 8 year 18 per contract. He is a very good player, not a premier player. Its like the $$ AJ Burnett got. He's good, not premier.

I wouldn't go much over the Jason Bay offer, maybe $85/5.

You don't pay $18mil per for .315/27HR/109 RBI. Let the Cardinals spend that on him. Whats their payroll anyway? You basically have that guy in Nick Markakis (but a crappier fielder) at 11mil per year.

The O's get him and all the Complainer/Haters b*tch that he doens't put up Manny Ramirez stats.

If we get Holiday, many bloggers are suggesting packaging Reimold. What about moving Adam Jones? Who has the bigger upside.....let's say 5 yrs down the road. I love Jones but he has missed significant time the last two years to injury. Could he be another Jeffrey Hammonds?

Remember the hoopla about Mark Texeira? Enough said! There will be no signing of Holiday. Why would he play for the O's anyway? The report said that the O's had offered him 8 years 130 million. If that's true, that's BS. The Cardinals already made that offer and he turned it down. The O's did the same thing with Tex. They offered him 7 years 140 million, when he had turned down the same offer from Texas. They just want fans to think that they're trying but can't keep up with other teams' spending. That's BS. They are offering money they know will be turned down. The Greek will not spend the money it takes to win. The sooner you surrender to the idea, the better off you'll be.

Shamrock -

You're probably right. Holliday probably wouldn't live up to an eight year, $144M contract. At leasdt based on stats alone. But that's not the point.

The point is that he's worth $18M per (though I doubt anyone would offer eight guaranteed years) to the Orioles because of a bit more than stats alone.

If you can't see why, I don't know what to tell you.

An 8 yr/130 mill is a lot of coin for a 30 yr old player whose put up big numbers in a hitters' park. Haven't teams learned from past long-term contract mistakes like Zito/Rios/Wells??
Very few guys are worth that type of risky deal and while it's easy to say it's not my money, there are better ways to spend 130 mill than on a guy like Matt Holliday.
On the other side of things, if,in fact, the O's did offer such a ridiculous sum, then he and Boras should be rushing to sign because what other team is going to offer any where near that?
A rebuilding team should be trying to improve it's weak spots anyway and we are pretty solid already in the OF.

Man, am I sick of the "we're set in the outfield already" comments.

Seriously people?

Our starting left fielder has 350 big league at bats. And he's coming of a major injury/surgery. I can't think of anything else that would make Reimold less of a sure thing.

Our starting center fielder has missed significant time in each of his full seasons in the bigs. Before he got hurt last year, he was in the midst of a miserable second half slump. I'm as high on Jones as the next guy, but I'm not crazy enough to say that he's definitely going to be entrenched in center field for years to come.

Our fourth outfielder is coming off of his first solid stretch in the bigs, which really only lasted for about two months. He plays very good defense but still has a ton of work to do at the plate.

The only sure thing we have in the outfield is Markakis. At this point, I'd take Nick over just about every right fielder in the game.

That said, why do so many people thing our outfield is "set"? Can someone please explain that to me?

And even if Jones and Reimold were sure things, what would be the harm in adding another guy, especially if said guy could be the guy that would help turn this franchise around? Since when is having too many good players a problem?

Brooks- I can't see why the O's need to overspend on a guy that just isn't the answer? I would love to have him, but not at the 10th highest salary in baseball. He is not that guy. All the amateur GM's need to trust that AM knows his stuff and let him set his price.

What I can see is that Holliday probably continues to fade and Helton's it up the last 5 years of his mega deal and bogs down the team for years to come with teen HR totals.

I would rather have two 9 mil players (top RP pitcher+ Laroche? Huff?) than one 18 mil Holliday. That will make them a better team.

If are referring to needing signing Holliday is needed to show that they are serious about contending, then you need to learn a little more about baseball. I know that they are serious about being built to last. Becoming built to last doesn't happen over night or by spending 1/4 of your pay roll on .315/27hr/110rbi on a position that isn't empty.

Keith, what do you want me to say without repeating myself 500 times?
I like AM. I think he is doing a fine job.He's made good deals and will continue to make good deals. He has excellent people in place in the organization.
He is executing on his idea to create a sustainable winning tradition. It's just not on the right timeline for some.Big deal
The team is in better shape, and will continue to improve.
I don't believe that PA wants to continue losing, or that there is some kind of warehouse conspiracy on the blog. That is just laughable.

Tell me, what is so original about anything that Wayne has ever posted. To be honest, 99% of his posts are complete and utter trash, beating the same silly 'I'm a winner' drum.
I could give a rat's ass
about his life theories of winners, fillers, and whatever other malarky he posts on here.
I reply to his garbage because people like that need an antagonist. It's all funny. His whole schtik is what exactly? Be a winner? Well hey, here's an original idea.
Wayne, if you're listening..
Would a real winner sit on his ass on a blog and complain, or would a real winner rally his troops and as you say, 'take the team back' by assembling a group of investors and buying it back? Or is that too much work for a real winner? Maybe you're a 'filler' in that complaining about a situation is the easiest thing you could do. C'mon, it's not impossible for winners, is it?

Shamrock -

First off, I'd take Holliday @ $18M per over a $9M reliever and LaRoche any day. Probably because I think it's ridiculous to spend any more than $6 or $7M per at most on any reliever.

Second, I do think that the O's need to sign Holliday to prove that they're serious about contending. So many posters keep saying that the O's need to wait for the "right time" to sign that big name free agent. Well, my friend, when is the prodigal "right time" going to come? What if Reimold, Jones, Tillman and Matusz (gasp!) don't progress in 2010 as we all hope they will? If those four don't make big strides this coming season, it obviously won't be the "right time" in the winter of 2010-11, because the team will be right about where it is now, which isn't the "right time".

Also, Holliday fills so many needs for the O's, it's ridiculous. He would serve as the right handed power bat that the O's have been missing since they traded Frank Robinson in '71. He would serve as protection for Markakis, which could help Nick blossom into an even better hitter. He would serve as the "first big splash" that would show future free agents that the O's are ready to spend so that they can compete for the AL East title. He would serve as the big name signing that would bring some fans back to the Yard. The reasons are countless.

So, yes, I believe that the O's should sign Holliday for $18M per, but not just for his .315/27/110 line.

Holliday does not fill a real team need. As much as you think our OF can be upgraded, it is by far one of our weaknesses. That $18 million per year could be better spent elsewhere. I would much rather see the O's make a legitimate run after Ardolis Chapman, who should be in the $6 million per year range. Not only does he have huge upside potential, but he would fill the void for losing our 2nd round pick by signing M. Gonzalez. As we all know, you can never have too much pitching. And by time he would be ready, Millwood and Guthrie most likely would be gone. Also, some of that money could be used to sign a guy like Bedard to solidify the rotation on a short term, low base, high incentive deal. Round out the free agent signings by getting Delgado on the same type of contract.

The above moves make much more sense and also more realistic. The payroll for those 3 players would be well below those of signing on OF that we really don't need necessarily. It really doesn't make a whole lot of sense to sign anyone else because all of the "youth" we have been waiting for are on their way up. We had many rookies start last season that include Montanez, Reimold, Weiters, Bergensen, Hernandez, Burken, Matusz, Tillman, etc. I fully expect Reimold and Weiters to continue where they left off. Bergensen, Matusz, and Tillman all have the potential to win at least 10 games a piece, if not more. The improvement in our record will come from pitching, not hitting. But guess what? As many rookies as we had come up last season, we can expect Josh Bell and Brandon Snyder to make their way next season.

There is no more waiting for our young players to play for the O's. They are all coming up at the same time and making their way on the roster. I think if we all have waited this long to build up the farm, we should see what these players can do first before spending $18 million a year on one player who may not even be worth the money, let alone fill a team need.

Jim66,

Tooche,

I too like to antagonize folks and find many of the posts written by bloggers or the professional news media hillarious myself, like the O's paying Holliday $18M per! Just not or never gonna happen, nor in some ways should it! Is he worth the same annual salary as Tex, not even close. Corner OF's are a dime a dozen, his bat is attractive, but what did Adam Dunn get $10M per and Adam Dunn numbers are what we really need in the 4 hole.
But this is the blogosphere, and everyone is entitled to his or her oppinion regardless of how ridiculus it might be. My Grandmother went to her grave believing we never reached the moon and the pictures were from Arizona! I too get a lot of amusement from this blog, but the premise is we all like the O's and want them to win. Much like the current debate on healthcare, while only 31% of Americans support it, and our government is supposed to be a representative democracy, it is going to get voted in. The O's or most sports teams are owned by a person or group and run as a profit and that leads many of the conspiracy theorists to their oppinions, real or not and it does in fact provide low cost entertainment to many.

I still think our payroll budget needs to by around $100-110M to survive in AL East. AM has done a decent job in the draft, player development and dumping 3 aforementioned players and stocking the shelves. That may have worked in AL Central for Twins or NL Central for the Cubs, but we fortunately or unfortunately play with the BigDawgs in the AL East and player development and the draft can't keep pace with bigtime spending, and AM knows this as well. But continuing to kick "when is the right time" down the road only aggitates the waining fan base, look at attendance.

Hey wishing you a Happy New Year!

Keith, Walker (and so many others),

The O's have Jim66, bob c, djph, with a little shamrock mixed in...... That's it!

They will spin why the O's have embarrassing corners. They will spin why the O's have no clean-up hitter. They will spin why the O's starting rotation will be dominated by inexperience. They will spin why there's no proven closer. They will spin why the O's are 26 of 30 in payroll. They will spin why AM loaded the club with so many awful 'fillers' in 09'.

They will tell you that it was 'never about winning this year' (sound familiar?). They will tell you that free agents don't want to come here. They will tell you that AM is responsible for guys like Markakis, Reimold, Bergesen, the drafting of Weiters, etc, etc (lies of course).... And, they will tell you that the Plan is on course.

Then, they will list the names.... You know....all the names that will take the O's to the promise land.

Finally, they will call me negative, a troll, psychotic and whatever other name they can come up with. They will distort things I say, and will attack anyone who has anything truthful to say about PA or AM.

Instead of commenting about winning, they will correct my use of the word blogger (i was told it's 'commenter' by the way). They'll also berate me when I make more than 2 points after suggesting I have a 'couple' thoughts.

Why? Because that's all they have Keith! They know this team only knows how to do one thing - Lose! Just know though - there's only a few people out there like them left.

People want a winner in this town. Some though, live for next year..... always next year.... always, always next year!

We don't Keith, Walker and others! We are fed up and want the lies to stop once and for all.....

Back to the real world...

At least the O's aren't going to give Marlon Byrd a three year deal and pretend like he's comparable to Holliday (which is something that would have been done in the Flanny/Beattie era).

http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/7240846021

not brooks. I think our OF is solid if Jones recovers from his injury, Reimold picks up where he left off and Markakis-status quo. Pie is a decent 4th OF and hopefully he can fill in if necessary. Sure, adding Holliday can't hurt but personally, I'd rather see the O's add a high impact 1B like Cabrera who is making a little more than the 18 mill that Holliday is rumoured to want(but I'd take Cabrera any day!)
The whole 130 mill thing is probably not true anyway as it could well be a ploy by Boras to create a market for his client.
I see the OF as a potential strength-glass half full?, agree that we need another big bat but would like to see it filled by a 1B. Not the worst thing in the world to have Holliday in our lineup but I can't see the O's coughing up that kind of coin...

Scmuckerella,

If only u took your boy macphail to task the way you do the readers of your blog, u might reclaim a modicum of credibility with anyone who actually pays attention to the pathetic farce thats been perpetrated on this hapless fanbase over and over throughout the years.


if youre not pessimistic about the way this team is run, youre either not paying attention or carrying water for the team.

Its clear Macphail was brought in here to pinch pennies under the guise of building the team the "right way," it still continues to fool some and its patently obvious that SChmuckerton is among the willing and gullible apologists. perhaps, schmuck knows but cannot stomach a feud with the warehouse.

" The Plan" is the same that its always been. Be a winner in revenues and a loser in the standings. after all, winning (usually) costs money

History will absolve me.

What will you say when we enter our 18th losing season in a row and we're still in the bottom of the standings but still among the wealthy elite in profitability?

Macphail does have one glaring and measurable "improvement". He's trimmed the payroll a cool 33% since he's arrived and thats the real reason he's here. Either SChmuck hasnt figured it out or doesnt have the stones to call macpahil on it. I guess SChmuckerelli doesnt want to lose his perks at the stadium and he fears being the recipient of one of Greedy Petey's famous grudges.

So maybe next time you try your hand at some amateur psychoanalysis, u can examine yourself and assess why you cant garner the courage to hold someone in the warehouse accountable for their continued refusal to make a sincere and genuine effort to fill the roster with elite players instead of washed up retreads and low rent stopgaps. Ask where there will to win is and why they refuse to spend some of their vast riches on a legitimate contender. Ask if they'll ever be a meaningful game played in September again in camden yards

I guess its easier to carry water for the team and castigate your readers as inherently pessimistic than confront the warehouse with long unanswered questions. I guess the Schmucker isnt one of those reporters that asks the tough questions.

You're an accomplice in this tragicomedy and maybe the sycophants in this blog will give you a pass, but you're right, I actually care about the fate of this team and I dont think a laid back So Cal boy like you can even pretend to fathom the depths of my outrage over what has happened to my beloved O's. The fact that its doesnt have to be this way is unforgivable and inexcusable.

Keep lobbing softballs to macphail schmuckie, dont want to rock the boat now do we ?

Wayne,

For whatever reason, I surely don't know for sure but have speculated that it's all tied to financial. Maybe PA is stilled pissed that MLB let the Nationals come to the area and is content not making as much money so he can get more from MLB, kinda like a fired manager owed money for two years and doesn't seen another job because he loses what is owed.

I hear many times over were not a small market team! I don't know, until PA shows the books who would know. I do Know we are in the Biggest Baseball market the AL EAST which is not a place for the cheap (that would be a hint to the Warehouse).

I think Dave Trembly is a fine man, he's not a very good tactician and puts terrible lineups on the field but when AM said were now going to start measuring wins and losses, why now the team on the field relative to the rest of the division is no better, maybe worse! Mora made the all-star team at one time and Huff had is best year two years ago, does anyone believe Atkins and Luke Scott or Aubrey will approach those numbers?
Prospects are hit or miss on every team. With the exception of the Matt Wieters, Barry Bonds, or JD Drew coming out of college you never know, just look what Bergesen has done compared to higher draft picks!

I too, like everyone here wants the O's to win, the difference is that most don't comprehend what financial committment is required to make it happen. I think AM is an honorable, hardworking man who will make a nice Commissioner, but as for a GM in the AL East he is out of his league/division.

They can roll out as many excuses as they want, but until the Warehouse demonstrates to me that they are committed to winning at the major league level, in their manager, their FA signings and financial committment to being the AL East, I too will remain a conspiracy theorist!

Godspeed and Peace,

Happy New Year!

The "ifs" are the thing, Terry.

Why not add a sure thing in Holliday and make Scott or Reimold available via trade to improve another weakness (SP, 1B)?

In regard to Cabrera, I'd love to have him as well but I think Holliday is more realistic.

First off, Holliday is going to be cheaper. Regardless of where he signs, his annual salary will probably never break $20M, unless his deal is loaded on either end.

Second, Holliday will only cost money and draft picks. Cabrera, on the other hand, will cost money and, if the Tigers deal with the O's, probably at least Reimold and Tillman plus a few more high end prospects.

Third, Cabrera's got weight issues as well as domestic problems. Not sure how those affect his production throughout the life of the contract.

SChmuckers,

I wish there was an edit option, so i could soften my words.

My previous post was an angry response because someone at another website copied one of my posts, they then copied your response--only it wasnt your response to my post but someone else's, but they made it look like you were responding to me

i repsonded so angrily because I thought you were merely dismissing my arguments as "negative" when I had only listed some facts. I thought you were psychoanalysing me, so I took umbrage.

Like i said, there are some statements I would like to rephrase a little more diplomatically but someone at another website copied one of your responses to wayne but made it look like you were responding to me. I thought you were taking a cheap shot, sorry. I wish there was a delete button, D'oh

Jason

All,

The Truth will set you free!

1) Is the warehouse doing all they can do?
2) Is there money to spend?
3) Are profits better than winning?
4) Does PA want to win the AL East or beat MLB out of money?
5) Is the Baltimore media in the bag for the warehouse?

The Truth will set you Free!

Why not make an offer, any offer to Holliday? What does it hurt? Who is going to hit in the #4 spot for the O's? Riemold? Scott? Please. Don't insult our intelligence. If you want a QUALITY #4 hitter who can hit 30-35 HRS and knock in 110-120 runs a year, you will need to pay him $15-20 mil/year. They are rarely home grown. Plus, you are now going against BETTER SP staffs on the Stinkees and the Bo Sox with the additions of Lackey and Vasquez. So again, who's hitting #4 for the O's and what does it hurt to make an offer? Nothing at all. Show the O's fan base you have more in store than Atkins, Millwood, and Gonzalez please. PLEASE.

Nice comments and perspective by djph and Chris in Hawaii.

Pete, pls put a check on the name calling - it's really getting out of hand when someone with a different opinion gets derogatory - aside from being flat out childish. It's bad enough with the negativism.

Aside to Seth: pls disagree w/o getting personal. Who needs to growth up here?

Aside to Ryan: I'm on this blog b/c I'm an Orioles fan - living in Conn doesn't automatically make someone a Sox fan.

I think the $$ is over and above what Holliday is worth - the same as other posters. No reason to get sloppy over an opinion. I respect yours.

Sorry SChmuckers,

My temper got the best of me. I wonder if the guy at the other website made an honest mistake or if he intentionaly tried to make it look like you were ripping a me a new one on purpose. ANyway, my repsonse was made in anger to make you angry. I meant what i said about the Orioles, but not what i said about you

Perhaps a delete option for the new year? Sorry

These four, low risk moves will make the O's WINNERS this year. They won't be contenders, but they will be winners and none of these moves will jeopardize the future of the organization.

#1 - Sign Mark Hendrickson - Just get it out of the way. He was good out of the pen last year and shouldn't be a budget burden. I understand that Castillo is more of a lefty specialist, but Hendrickson can give you more innings over the course of the year and is more versatile. I couldn't fathom Castillo going more than an inning, maybe two at the most.

#2 - After Holliday signs (no, not with us), get what you can for Luke Scott - Chances are, he's not going to be the guy we need in a couple years when we are really contending. And he's most likely not going to bring any draft picks back when he hits free agency. His value was probably highest a month before the trade deadline earlier this year, but unless you intend to hold onto him and hope he produces on a consistent basis (not likely) the first half of this year, you're not gonna get much more for him than you would right now. At worst, we'd have Reimold/Pie/Wieters on non-catching days/Wiggy slotted there on any given day. At best...

#3 - If healthy enough, sign Delgado for the DH spot - Of course, this is being made tougher to get done sooner than later based on his not playing winter league ball yet, but his problems last year impeded his play in the field, not at the plate. He could be a legit #4 guy in the line-up.

#4 - Bedard - He won't be ready until mid-season (most likely), but if you want to roll the dice and assume you can get something good for Millwood around the trade deadline, you could then slide Bedard into that spot in the starting rotation. When he's on, he's a legit Ace and he'll come at a fairly reasonable price. A one-year deal with incentives and a team option for 2011 should get the job done.

We won't have a line-up that equals the Yankees (though we wouldn't be far off) and we won't have the pitching that Boston does (yet), but we will match up favorably against any other team in the league. That includes Tampa Bay and Toronto (destined for 5th place this year), who we play just as many games against as we do New York and Boston. Make those four moves and this is an 82-85 win team that can build on their success.

Keith,
I agree that at the end of the day, to field a competitive team in the AL East, that the O's payroll will have to be in the 100m range, give or take a few dollars. Once they reach arbitration and FA status, even your 'young' players will begin to earn some real dollars.
Signing a player like Holliday then presents a lot of questions/opportunities to a team like the Orioles.
Paying big dollars for a player that would afford the team a middle of the order bat, give the team some flexibility for future deal, and gain the organization what appears to be some much-needed credibility is a logical argument. But the guy putting the ballclub together is the guy that knows how those dollars and player will play out in his long-range goals.
If the O's do sign him, and at this time it seems remote, it will be because the team in charge did their homework and see the whole picture.And that probably includes putting people in the seats.

Having a pipleline of inexpensive major league talent is a key to sustaining success.
Not everyone is going to be an All-Star. Being able to evaluate and develop players and move them thru the system, to fill gaps or cover up injuries, is vital. It's not a luxury. If AM has done anything, it's realizing that fact and getting this organization back on track.

He may be different things to different people, but he's not a hack, and certainly not a disgrace.

Ok, let it rain...

Shamrock,

You happen to know that the Orioles are being built to last?

Don't you mean they are being built FOR last, because that's where they will still be when 2010 ends. And I'll back it up with 20 bucks and Pete can hold the money.

Please don't tell me that you are one of the 2011 or 2012ers. Are there any 2013 or 2014ers out there?

Pitchers and catchers report in a little over 6 weeks. Please tell me what I have to look forward to this year. I'd like to hear your take as a true "Plan" believer.


I'm serious. Cheer me up and sell me.

Keith... who do you suggest the O's sign to get to said 100-110mil payroll next year so they can survive in the AL East this year?

Again, this isn't Xbox Madden football where you click a few buttons and you get your guy. Otherwise the team looks like this:
Holliday $125/7
Figgins $50/4
Lackey $95/5
Wolf $35/3
Lyon $17/3
Rodney $12/2

Still not that great.

There is no slam dunk FA in this years class that gets it done. They all have ?-marks. Injury, Coor's effect, etc etc...

Is this what the Haters consider Warehouse apologizing? Stating obvious reality and not blindly complaining?

Gil:

There are now about 170 posts on this topic in 24 hours. Given multiple posts by a lot of people that means there are signifigantly less than a 100 people here expressing an opinion one way or another.

The impact you have on the Os and any possible decision or course of action that AM is going to take is confined to whether you do or don't buy a ticket. Given that the stands are mostly empty now, whatever force and effect there is from that is already at about its peak.You're not going to affect it much regardless of what you do.

There isn't a GM who trolls the blogs to get a sense of the public mood so they can base or modify their decisions. Show me one who does and I'll show you someone who is unemployed or is soon to be.

When we lose perspective on that, we really are in need of a good head shake.

Maybe we're all just suffering some kind of cabin fever. That so many don't see that giving huge 8 year contracts to 30 year olds is borderline crazy is a clue. Four years for 80 million. Fine by me. Its only money. Eight year deals. Insane.

Folks,

I assume from most of these posts that most you you think the O's are a small market team, unable to support a $100M payroll.

If thats true, the AM plan is your only shot! The probability of such a plan working in the AL East is astronomical, see the 2008 Rays, how did their long term success work out for them?

I work in a line of work that is Very Expensive. Quality equipment and long term support and maintenance is in the Billions of dollars. Many of my customers try and do it on the cheap, but it rarely works.

I have to say that if we have conceded that we can't sustain $100M annual payroll, playing in the AL East, we might as well reside ourselves to being in 4th or 5th place 18 out of 20 years and figure that when all the stars align and maybe the Red Sox and Yanks feel sorry for us sometime about 2042 we might actually have a miniscule chance of getting a wild card, but only if were lucky!

Keeping things in perspective!

Shamrock -

It can't be done this year, obviously, but combine this year with next year and look at what you've got:

This is from my 11:10 AM post:

The fact is that this team could easily afford to pay Matt Holliday $18M per year. If they added that salary to this year's payroll, it would bump the total up to $71M. $71M! That's about $20M less than PA payed the joke that was the 2007 team!

Moving on to next year, let's say that Carlos Peña costs $12M per and Josh Beckett goes for another $18M. Subtract Kevin Millwood's $9M and add that $30M and you've got a $92M team, which probably jumps up to about $105-115M depending on what happens with the shortstop position and arbitration raises.

Shamrock,

You said "Keith... who do you suggest the O's sign to get to said 100-110mil payroll next year so they can survive in the AL East this year?

Again, this isn't Xbox Madden football where you click a few buttons and you get your guy. Otherwise the team looks like this:
Holliday $125/7
Figgins $50/4
Lackey $95/5
Wolf $35/3
Lyon $17/3
Rodney $12/2"

Teams are built, not in a day or a couple of years, but if not now WHEN. Not last year when Tex was out there? The only right fit for the O's are the cheap and available. Ever ask why no respectable FA would sign here. Look around, the O's whether true or not don't project a committment to winning, not to our fans, players or around the league!

There are always excuses to push back spending, were not ready, they cost too much, they won't sign here, there are no good players.

We clearly need a 4th hitter, a corner infielder for starters. Ok who of your list could hit 4th and possibly DH or move our LF to DH? Who could play 1B/3B on your list or is available via trade?

I really don't think these are hard questions. The hard question is does this front office and ownership have the stomach and committment to pay the price for winning!

Take a chance, Columbus did!


Happy New Years

The Orioles could've signed Lackey and Holliday and their 2010 payroll would still be LOWER than their 1998 payroll

Lets keep it real

This isn't much of an FA class... two unproven Cubans in the top 10. Clearly the year to make a run at the WS. I do give the Red Sox credit, they spent less that they did on Julio Lugo to get Mike Cameron.

1. Matt Holliday, LF 29 (A)
2. Jason Bay, LF 31 (A)
3. John Lackey, SP 31 (A) Boston 5yrs $82.5 mil
4. Joel Pineiro, SP 31 (B)
5. Aroldis Chapman, SP 21
6. Andy Pettitte, SP 37 NY 1yr $11.75 mil
7. Randy Wolf, SP 33 Milwaukee 3yrs $29.75 mil
8. Orlando Hudson, 2B 32
9. Felipe Lopez, 2B 29
10. Noel Arguelles, SP
11. Chone Figgins, 3B Seattle 4yrs $36mil
12. Mike Cameron, CF 2yrs $15.5mil
13. Nick Johnson, 1B 31 NY 1 yr $5.75 mil
14. Placido Polanco, 2B 34 Philadelphia 3yrs $18mil
15. Marco Scutaro, 2B 34 Boston 2 $12.5
16. Mike Gonzalez, RP 31 Signed (A) Baltimore 2 $12mil
17. Ben Sheets, SP 31
18. Miguel Tejada, SS 35
19. Rafael Soriano, RP 30 Traded TB 1yr $7.25mil
20. Rich Harden, SP 28 Signed Cubs 1yr $7.5
21. Brad Penny, SP 31 StL 1yr $7.5
22. Johnny Damon, LF 36
23. Billy Wagner, RP 38(A) Atlanta 1YR $7mil
24. Jon Garland, SP 30
25. Ryota Igarashi, RP 30 NY Mets 2yrs $3mil
26. Hideki Matsui, LF 35 LA Angels 1yr $6.5mil
27. Adrian Beltre, 3B 30 Free Agent (B) Seattle
28. Erik Bedard, SP 30
29. Adam LaRoche, 1B 30
30. Miguel Olivo, C 31
31. Marlon Byrd, CF 32 (B) Cubs 3yrs $15mil
32. Jason Marquis, SP (B) Wash 2yrs $15mil
33. Rafael Betancourt, RP 34 Accepted Arbitration
34. Pedro Martinez, SP 38
35. Carlos Delgado, 1B 37
36. Jose Valverde, RP 31(A)
37. Xavier Nady, RF 31
38. Carl Pavano, SP 33 Accepted Arbitration
39. Doug Davis, SP
40. Vladimir Guerrero, RF 34

Out of this pile of crap, I would be happy with Laroche, maybe Delgado or Vlad.

Gil and wayne,

I am not sure what you are not excited about. Reimold and Weiters just finished their rookie season on a tear. You mean to tell me you aren't excited to see what they can do with a full major league season? You really don't think these two players have the potential to hit 30 HR's? Is that out of the question? To see these player mature and grow from the beginning of their careers to become All Stars? That doesn't excite you?

What about Bergensen, Matusz, or Tillman? You think if Bergensen starts with the O's that he won't start where he left off? How many many wins did he have in how many starts? A 3.43 ERA and 1.28 WHIP is not good enough for you? You mean to tell me that Matusz, who is still considered a rookie next season, won't be a contender for ROY? Making the majors in his first professional season isn't something that excites you? Or the 21 year old, Tillman, who can only get better with experience?

You really don't think those starters are better than Eaton, Simon, Hill, et al? Don't you think it is the PITCHING that will help us win games next season? Do you really think our PITCHING is not better than a year ago?

Again, it doesn't make sense whatsoever to spend $18 million on Holliday. It would be nice, but the money can be spent some where else that is more important. Chapman, Bedard, and Delgado would be worth more to this team and cost a lot less. Then when Izturis is a free agent, or if Bell, Snyder, and Waring don't pan out, you go after a corner IF and SS.

Why sign someone to a big contract now when all of the prospects are making their way up at the same time? We have already waited 2 years for the prospects to develop. Their time has come. We will see them all up next season. How can you not be excited for that and see how they play? Don't think you can wait one more year and give these young players a chance? It's not like they are in AA and we have to wait another 3 years to see the results. They are ready NOW. Bell and Snyder both will be up around the All Star break. It would make no sense to block them now when they are on the verge of playing everyday for the O's.

Not quite, jason.

Subtract Millwood and add Holliday for $18 and Lackey for $18 (because there's no way he would have signed here for $16.5) and you're pushing $80M.

The team payroll in '98 was $70M.

But you still made your point. This team can certainly afford to add two or three big contracts.

not brooks. I agree that there are 'ifs'with the O's but I think we are slowly reducing them. We have a pretty decent nucleus in Roberts, Weiters, Markakis and with the starters...Jones could decline but I like what I've seen for the most part and injuries are part of the game there..
Reimold and Pie aren't there yet so there is some merit to adding a guy like Holliday but who are we bidding against other than the Cards?
I suggest Miguel Cabrera because the Tigers are serious about unloading payroll and although they've already unloaded the likes of fan favourite Granderson and Edwin Jackson, they have fat contracts to deal with in Verlander, Bonderman and Ordonez(18 mill-yikes!). Cabrera didn't endear himself with his late-season drinking spree and he is a little chunky but overall the man can flat out hit
With his downside, maybe that works in the O's favour as maybe we can talk Detroit into a better deal. I'm thinking long-time Tiger killer Scott, a young pitcher like Tillman and another couple of 2nd tier guys and some cash might get it done.
At 20 Mill Cabrera may be somewhat overpaid but King Peter has lots of $$ and this type of guy can be a force for another 6-7 years.
I'm sure it's a long shot to happen but it's always fun to dream!!

Jason C...

They COULD have had Tex and CC Sabathia last year IF those two wanted to play here. Those two plus Holliday and Lackey would only equal about $500 mil and take up 1/5 of the roster. Efficient management of restrained capital resources.

Players aren't going to just sign here because you clicked the A Button and they're here. Look at Chone Figgins.. he went straight to Seattle and talked to no one else.

Let the rebuilding happen and build a decade long winner by incrementally getting back to respectability. Built to last, not built to satisfy fans with 30 minute attention spans.

Scamrock

Dont say things like "Built to last, not built to satisfy fans with 30 minute attention spans" We have suffered for awhile and deserve to get a better team. Does10 years seem like 30 min to you? C'mon man!

Sham,

From where I sit the following on your list all would improve the O's on the field immediately:

1,2,3,4,5,11,15,16,17,18,20,21,23,24,26,27,28,29,32,37.

And your point is? Another problem this organization has for 20 years is overvaluing our own prospects. While AM fleeced the Mariners and dump Tejada and Hernandez, we have historically overvalued Hayden Penn and others that have precluded deals getting done!

no.. blowing obscene sums of money on a weak free agent class is having a 30 minute attention span.

Good to Great.
Built to Last.

The organization has been a mess for so long there is no other option than to blow it up and start over. Think of them as being an expansion franchise.

Keith- my point is that entire list of players on 1 team still doesn't make them better than the Yankees or Red Sox or Rays. That list is a mess. Loaded with guys coming off injuries, mid 30-somethings, and second basemen.

AM needs to fill out the BP with some solid depth, pick up another bat or two and this team is with in a few games of .500 next year.

Darn. The Phillies signed Danys Baez. What will our pen do without him?


There should be a universally agreed upon font for sarcasm.

LOL watch Baez work out in Philly

Anonomus/Keith-

Those 6-7 players I rattled off would require a 300mil++ commitment AND that players commitment to come here. That and no matter how good the team is, some players just won't sign here. If it was all about winning probability, everyone would be in NYY or BOS. There are other factors involved. Like Tex, he wanted to be Don Mattingly in NY, so he signed there.

Building a team solely through free agency does not produce a guaranteed winner (See Baltimore 96-98 and 05-06). It even took the Yankees over a Billion dollars and 10 years to win another ring.

Look at the Phillies... Howard, Utley, Victorino, Rollins, Hamels, Happ, Madson. All came up through the farm or were acquired (on the cheap) while young. That is a heck of a nucleus. The O's may have that and more (less the 50hr bat)

Chill out and let the sinister Warehouse money-grubbing PA/cheapskate AM "The PLAN" happen.

Baez and any other guy from our bullpen during the Trembley era might be decent relievers but we will never know because how horribly mismanaged and broken they were.

Frank Rizzo,

I'll give you part of the action I offered to Shamrock if you want it. 20 bucks says the Orioles finish last again in 2010. Pete can hold the money. That is a bet I would like to lose, but is not much of a risk based on andy Macphail's dithering and pussy footing.

. That was a nice puff piece that you just wrote about the prospects, but it doesn't get the Orioles out of the cellar. The old Washington Senators had Harmon Killebrew, Bob Allison, Roy Sievers and Jim Lemon in the lineup and still finished last every year.

Next year wil be Andy Macphail's third full year as GM. If the Orioles finish last again in 2010 he should be fired, period.

Winning is all that matters to me, Frank, not slogans such as"built to last". Macphail has had many chances to add proven major league talent over the last few years to improve the product on the field, and he has not done so. Therfore, in my opinion, he has already failed, no matter how bad the team was when he got here.

And bob c.,

it appears that you are so bored that you have decided to offer your services as blog physchoanalyst and historian. Why should anyone post? all they have to do is read your capsule summary once the thread gets started so you can tell us what to think.

bob c, I wouldn't take that psychoanalyst job for Halliday money.
Though I'd pay a few bucks to see a workup on the resident Tony Robbins.
Is a blog psychoanalyst sworn to blogger-analyst priviledge? If so, scratch paragraph 2.

It's going to be sad when Wieters, Matusz, and Reimold turn into superstars and then sign with the Yankees.

Frank,

Yes, those players show promise! We may have a star catcher for years. Reimold, i"m not as sure about. We'll see!

The point is, you're talking about developing players. In order to truly develop young players though, you must surround them with proven, productive players with experience..... something the Orioles will not spend to do.

People (you included) want to compare going into 2010 to that of 2009. Doing so is what the Orioles want you to do. Why?

Because you're comparing this crop to one of the worst in the history of the franchise. They have snowed so many!

So yes, IF ALL of the players you speak of go crazy (which is doubtful), the O's could have a winning record.

That's simply too much pressure to put on bunch of young players though....... and every astute baseball exec knows such.

AM will not spend and he will not make a deal to make this club better. And it's not all his fault! He's conservative, but even more so under PA.

Every team has young players to be excited about. I'm not sure why people don't understand that. The problem is, the orioles keep selling you on the young players, and you keep buying it.

You should excited about Wins though Frank. Wins are ALL that matters. Not names!

Nothing matters accept Winning.

Gil,

You may want to go back on your bet. Don't forget the Jays lost Halliday and Scutaro so far in the off season. They've gotten some minor league talent in return, but their replacement for Scutaro is Alex Gonzales and their replacement for Halladay doesn't exist. They dumped Rios at the end of last year too, leaving their outfield as Adam Lind (a horrible fielder, so they DH'd him last year), Vernon Wells and Travis Snider. They still have major questions at first and catcher and they'll be starting Encarnacion at 3rd until Brett Wallace is ready (not unlike waiting for Josh Bell, only Atkins looks better than Encarnacion). About the only infield position they're solid in is at 2B.

So no matter how bad you think the O's are gonna be next year, the Jays will be worse. There's a reason we swept them to end 2009.

Folks, flip out all you want. I love the Orioles, but it's Dec. 31. I don't look to the definition of a team or its management on Dec. 31. Anyone who does needs to spend a few moments cooling down and getting back in touch with reality.

I say no to Holliday (conveniently, he probably also says no to the Orioles!). This doesn't mean everyone has to agree with me. I just don't think we're a Holliday-signing away from contention, or even close. That's 2004 Orioles mentality. I don't want to go there again.

Would I take a huge FA signing like Teixeira--a consistent Gold Glove power hitter playing a position we don't have covered? Yes, but it's too late for Teixeira, the scrub. Holliday isn't even close to the same caliber player, no matter what kind of signal he sends the fanbase. At some point, you just have to look at this year's FA class, sigh, and wait a little longer. In the meantime, see what the young rockstars on our team can do. They're incredible ballplayers.

The Wieters/Markakis/Roberts/Reimold/Matusz/Tillman/Bergeson/Jones train is charging toward Camden Yards, and I'm catching a ride whether everyone here is with me or not.

There are two kinds of folks on a blog, and they're not "right" and "wrong". Rather, they're folks you'd consider settling down with for a beer, and folks you'd rather not.

Chris in Hawaii, next time you're in Baltimore, let me know and I'll buy you a beer. Thanks for the perspective and the insight beyond all the cooped-up midwinter fury on this blog.

Built to last does mean winning you dope... I can't believe I bother arguing with you.

If winning is all that matters, is anything less than a WS ring failure? Not to mention (again), you aren't doing the winning and losing. Get a grip. Its baseball, its supposed to be fun. But, for your sake, I hope the team loses for the next 20 years just to make you more miserable.

I like to think AM is building the team to last, not make a 2 year run, flame out and blow it up again.

Like the Russell St. Linebacker Factory... built to last. One goes out another steps up. Building a franchise doesn't happen over one year, or two or three.

If you think the O's are bad... go cheer for the Royals, Pirates, Padres, Rangers, Athletics, Cleveland, Marlins, or Nats. Every one of which is in worse shape than the O's through lack of capital, years of mismanagement and poor signings.

Man I'm bored today.

left Toronto off my list of hopeless franchises...

Yes Wayne. I am very excited for wins. I think we will win many more games now that we don't have Eaton, Hill, Simon, Bradford, Baez, Walker, Mora, Huff, and Zaun in the starting lineup. Do you think those players had anything to do with us losing last season? Do you think now that those players are not on the team, and are replaced with the younger players, we can finally improve from a year ago? You keep saying we need supporting players for the young ones. You don't think Markakis, Roberts, Scott, and Atkins will provide enough support for Jones, Reimold, and Weiters?

You also don't think that getting rid of our pitiful starters from opening day a year ago won't improve the record either? Taking out Hill, Simon, Eaton, and Liz isn't an upgrade by replacing them with Bergensen, Matusz, and Tillman? All of whom were rookies a year ago? You don't think Guthrie and Millwood are good enough to support them? Like I already said before, those three young pitchers all have the ability to win at least 10 games a piece, if not more. I would not be surprised to see Bergensen win 15 and Matusz win ROY.

Is that not enough of an improvement for you wayne? You think it is more realistic for the O's to break the bank and turn from finishing last to winning the division all in a year? I would say we have a decent chance at finishing in 3rd place. The Blue Jays will finish in dead last next season. It will be interesting to see how we keep up with Tampa. Again, it will come down to the pitching. Not the hitting.

The only way Holiday is an O is if there's a deal with Pie or Riemold. Riemold part of a deal for Gonzalez? Maybe to first base.

Gil:

You've discovered my dirty little secret. I can't resist the urge to give my opinions when I'm on a blog. While I'm deeply ashamed of myself for that, I do draw some solice from the fact that everyone else seems to be doing the same thing.

As far as my posts being a guide for how anyone else should think, I would recommend they do that on their own. Give it a try. It's not that difficult.

holliday? Isn't he that guy that dropped the easy fly ball in the biggest game of his life? How much does he want to DH anyway?

Shamrock,

"Are you talkin to me? I'm the only one here so you must be talkin to me." Are you talkin to me?"

I have never used the term warehouse blogger. I have said in the past that I don't believe there is a warehouse conspiracy. They are too incompetent to pull one off if they wanted to.

The team can be"built to last"and built to win at the same time. It's called spending money to improve the talent at the major league level rather than put the fans through the Chinese water torture known as the Andy Macphail rebuilding program. It does not have to be a zero sum game, unless you, are of course, Andy Macphail, the most deliberate, careful man in the history of baseball, who obviously has a one track mind and is not a multi tasker. Old Andy says that if it takes another 20 years, he is going to get this right and not rush things.

I had something else to say but being a short attention span fan I forgot what it was.

By the way, you are not Bill Stetka or Greg Bader are you?.

Just Kidding!!


"If you think the O's are bad... go cheer for the Royals, Pirates, Padres, Rangers, Athletics, Cleveland, Marlins, or Nats. Every one of which is in worse shape than the O's through lack of capital, years of mismanagement and poor signings."

Shamrock -

You're right about half of those teams. I do think that the O's are in a much better position than KC, Pittsburgh, San Diego and Washington, but that's not saying much.

But Texas and Florida won 87 games last year, both finishing second in their division. Oakland didn't look so hot, but still won 75 games while developing a team that's going to pitch and field insanely well in 2010. They just need some semblance of an offense to emerge to have a shot at the AL West, which is going to be a dogfight this coming season. Cleveland looked pretty ugly last year, but before their ALCS collapse in '07 and a load of injuries in 2008, they were a pretty good team and they're still a good organization.

If the O's don't end up signing Holliday, I'd like to hear an explanation from Andy MacPhail and/or Peter Angelos as to why they weren't willing to spend any money this off season.

I know that's the longest of long shots, but your humble readers would like to know what's going on, Pete.

.............................................................................................
Pete's reply: I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Your question presupposes that Holliday would come here and that he's the guy who changes the game in Baltimore. If you gave him Teixeira money, maybe you get him, but then you're done with big-time free agents for awhile and you're still not good enough to get to the playoffs. Any thing less and he's not interested.

bob c.,

That's really funny, bob. I really didn't understand the true purpose of this blog until you just clarified it for me and I experienced an epiphany.


Thank you, Dr. Bob

not brooks,

They've already taken on about $20 million in salary for next year between Gonzalez, Atkins and Millwood. And they're still looking at adding a few more players. Andy has said they're not done pitching wise and you have to think they're interested in scouting Delgado (who will start playing winter ball very soon), and if not Delgado, then Vlad might interest them. That could be another $10 million between 2 players.

It wouldn't be that they aren't spending any money, it's that the money they are spending isn't limited to one overpaid player.

Gil:

You're welcome. Anytime. Bill is in the mail.

Chris in Hawaii just indicated that the Orioles have taken on an additonal $20 million in salary for next year on Atkins, Millwood and Gonzalez, and I'm sure he is right, I know they also unloaded a lot of salary last year.

Given the extra $20 million what is the Orioles current annual salary outlay? I know the last time I looked at it a few months ago the Orioles had the 4th lowest payroll in Baseball, along with the Royals, Pirates and I can't remember the other team.

Pete, While I'm not saying MacPhail is lying, I don't believe he's being 100% forthright, either. The report came from Tracy Ringolsby, one of the nation's leading baseball writers.

There's no way he'd risk tarnishing his reputation by not doing some basic fact-checking. He updated his article yesterday evening, hours after the MacPhail denial, but while he changed other parts of what he wrote about Holliday's asking price (see below).

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/Ringolsby-Holliday-contract-123009

Correction -- The last sentence of my comments should read:

"There's no way he'd risk tarnishing his reputation by not doing some basic fact-checking. He updated his article yesterday evening, hours after the MacPhail denial, but while he changed other parts of what he wrote about Holliday's asking price he in no way changed what he wrote about the Orioles (see below).

Chris -

They've added about $27M between Gonzalez, Atkins and Millwood along with raises that went out to Roberts, Markakis, Wigginton and Izturis.

And with Mora, Huff and Baez gone, nothing more going to Cincy for Ramon Hernandez and Jay Gibbons' contract finally off the books, they dropped about $30M. I'm sure there are a few more subtractions as well.

As it stands, the 2010 payroll will probably be about $60M, once raises kick in for the young players and Luke Scott and Jeremy Guthrie's arb raises are settled. If they spend the $10M more that you're talking about, the 2010 payroll will be about $70M.

In 2009, the payroll was $67M. A $3M change. Wow. And this is from a team that could easily afford a $100M payroll.

Once again, I'd like to know why they aren't spending any money.

Ok, not brooks.

So let's say they will be at $70 million and they pay Holliday $17 million a year for however many years. Then they will be at $87 million. I believe they can operate at $100 million. But what happens then if you're operating at $87 million and you have to start paying Wieters, Jones and the young pitchers their arbitration money, plus the escalation in Markakis' contract, which will be at $17 million in 2014? Now, I'm not necessarily talking about 2014, but I am talking about after 2011 when Adrian Gonzales and Prince Fielder may be available on the FA market. By that time, with the up coming arbitration dollars and possible contract extensions, would the Orioles be able to make a legit offer to either of those two with $17 million going to Holliday and at an operating cost of $100 million?

There's no need to pay that kind of money for that long to a guy who is not worth it. Holliday may be a great bat, and he may make everyone else better, but would a healthy Delgado not do the same at less money and less risk to the future of the club?

I'm not sold on Holliday, or really any of the names that keep popping up on Pete's blog. Adrian Gonzalez is a nice player, but not worth superstar money. Let's do something radical: actually spend superstar money on a superstar!

I'm not sold on Fielder either. That kind of body (and the lack of taking care of it) means his numbers will fall off a cliff, and relatively early. Last thing we need is a bloated contract tied to a bloated strike-out king.

I'd rather build around pitching and defense the way the Orioles of the 60's and 70's did. The way the most recent Yankee dynasty of the 90's did. That Yankee team was solid top-to-bottom, but they didn't have anyone smacking 50 homeruns. Then, when they started adding sluggers and paying less attention to the rotation, their championships dried up.

"I am talking about after 2011 when Adrian Gonzales and Prince Fielder may be available on the FA market."

You do realize that 2011 is two years away, right?

And that between now and then both of those guys will probably be traded and/or signed to extensions by teams that can afford them?

As far as the O's operating budget goes, I'm pretty sure they could afford something between $110 and $120M, which would leave plenty of room for arb raises and future contracts if they signed Holliday today. Heck, the team payroll in 2007 was $93M and that team lost 93 games. Even if it might stretch him a bit, I'm sure Angelos would be willing to pay $30M more for a team that could win 93 games.

"Holliday may be a great bat, and he may make everyone else better, but would a healthy Delgado not do the same at less money and less risk to the future of the club?"

That's the kind of thinking that's going to keep this club where it's at right now.

After 2010, it'll be, "Peña may be a great bat, but would a healthy Paul Konerko..."

And after 2011, it'll be "Fielder may be a great bat, but would a healthy Lance Berkman..."

This team needs to make a move right now that will make the team better right now, regardless of the financial risk. If they don't, they're just going to be in the same position every year, waiting for next year to make a big move.

"Adrian Gonzalez is a nice player, but not worth superstar money."

If a guy who's capable of hitting 35-40 home runs in the worst hitters park in the game isn't worth superstar money, who is?

Sham,

Thanks for the post. Your ignorance of the subject is only matched by the O's consistent losing record.

Those teams you mentioned Sham.... They ARE the Orioles! In KC, I'm sure someone is saying on a blog 'then go root for Baltimore'.

That you are so blind to failure pretty much defines your lack of credibility.

And Frank, sir..... Are you kidding? Please 'try' to understand what I mean by protection in the line-up and having proven, experience players so that players like Weiters can develop without there being so much pressure on them. If you don't understand such, there's no reason to chat.

Also Frank, who brought in all those terrible players you speak of in 08'? Who made the decisions that disgraced baltimore baseball, leading to one of the worst seasons in baltimore history? Need a hint?

Winning is all that matters people. Not a WS yet. Just one more win that losses.

HEY PETE,

Here's a new blog headline.....

NO VALIDITY TO MACPHAIL'S PLAN

Then simply list a few area's of discussion....LIKE:

- All the terrible pre-2009 signings.
- Why in a market the size of Balt are the O's 26 of 30 in payroll?
- What happen to 'buy the bats'?
- Where does all the money they're savig by being 26 of 30 go?
- Where are the legitimate corner infielders?
- Who's the clean-up hitter? Who protects players like Weiters?

I mean the list goes forever, but you get the idea....

It's about winning Pete, right?. Just do it !
I dare you!

..............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Sorry, buddy, but if I had your attitude toward any team, I would switch to another sport. I don't know why you're here, and I'm not saying that because I totally disagree with everything you post. To find another masochist as enthusiastic as you, I'd have to go to one of those kinky porn sites.

Thanks, not brooks.

I didn't realize 2011 was two years away as I am incapable of performing simple math equations and also lack the capability to understand date and time.

And the difference between Pena (who I wouldn't put in the same level as Gonzales or Fielder) and/or Fielder and Holliday is that those guys are a position of need for the O's, first base. Signing Holliday is like trying to fill a hole that isn't there and overpaying to do it. There is no hole in LF to fill and putting Reimold at DH is a waste when he's most likely a better fielder than Holliday. So would you put Holliday at DH? Are you going to commit $17 million a year to your guy who rides the pine when he's not batting?

Like you said, the '07 O's lost all those games with a $90 million dollar payroll, so spending money doesn't equal wins unless you spend it wisely. You find ways to use your money to fill holes, not to spend because you want to spend.

Thanks Pete,

That was classic!

All most people want is for the media to truly hold the team accountable for the consistent losing.....and to not bow when AM walks into the room.

To have a team made solely of developing players and fillers (BRob excluded), is irresponsible and you know it.

I support the team more than anyone in the press box. I pay a ton each year for the right to watch really bad baseball. All my friends and I hope for is that someone.....anyone... will tell the truth about things like: 26 of 30, not buying the bats and where all the money goes that they're saving.

Why is that wrong?

And 'kinky porn sites'? lol... classic!

Push the limit Pete! Ask this team to STOP looking to 'next year' before this year even starts. Can that just happen once?

Who in the great Oriole teams of lore does Matt Holliday compare to? Frank Robinson? Boog Powell perhaps? Brooks Robinson?

Frank Robinson? - Holliday isn't going to challenge for a Triple Crown outside of Coors' Field and he is a mistake hitter not someone who is going to beat a Cy Young caliber pitcher in the playoffs, something Hall of Famer Robinson regularly did.

Boog Powell? - Holliday hit 23 homers last year which will probably be his norm outside Denver since 100 of his 152 career homers were hit at home. Therefore, he does NOT represent a big home run threat in the #4 hole and in reality probably has far less raw home run potential than Nolan Reimold.

Brooks Robinson? - Brooks was a career postseason .303 hitter with clutch RBIs and series defining defense leading the O's to 2 WS wins and 4 WS appearances. Matt Holliday will probably be remembered best for butchering a line-drive hit right to him costing the Cardinals a crucial postseason win and leading to a sweep by the Dodgers.

So let's pay the guy his $18 million dollars a year to hit 23 home runs which breaks down to $782,608 per home run. Brilliant!

"There is no hole in LF to fill and putting Reimold at DH is a waste when he's most likely a better fielder than Holliday. So would you put Holliday at DH? Are you going to commit $17 million a year to your guy who rides the pine when he's not batting?"

Not sure there are enough stats on Reimold to really judge his fielding ability.

And according to UZR and Fielding Bible, Holliday's no slouch. The guy has a 9.7 UZR over the past three seasons and, according to Fielding Bible, he was a +9 left fielder in '07 and a +11 left fielder in '08. I can't find +/- numbers for '09, but Fielding Bible has him ranked as the fifth best left fielder in baseball for the season. Not too shabby.

So, based on those numbers, I'd commit to Holliday as the left fielder and let Reimold split time between left, first base and DH in Spring Training. If he handles first well in the spring, I'd put him there to start the season. If not, he starts at DH. Either way, I'm hoping he as a solid year so he can be a piece in a trade for a first baseman or an ace. That's one of the many good things about signing Holliday. It allows the team to shop Reimold.

Pete,

Paying Holliday doesn't necessarily mean that the Orioles are done with free agents for awhile unless, as Wayne says, Macphail has been given a salary cap by Angelos.

And if no offer has even been made as Macphail says, how can anybody even begin to speculate that he may not want to come here?

I have to agree with Not Brooks that the Orioles should make every attempt to put the big bat in the middle of the lineup.

In my opinion, improving the offense to give the team a puncher's chance is a litmus test for Macphail this offseason.

Others may not agree. Frankly, I think Macphail is pretty much done with the moves. It appears to me that the true plan believers wildest dreams are coming true and that Macphail will use the 2010
season to analyze the progress of the prospects. That has the potential for another throw away year.
I know you said you are on board for 2010, then will you see where the plan is and where the team is from a competitive standpoint. and I respect that. I just think it is a shame that the losing is likely to continue next year while Macphail continues to experiment. It doesn't have to be that way.

Wayne... I don't think I know everything about baseball, but I am hardly ignorant. I at least try to offer constructive discussion, rather than mindless paranoia. As I read your posts, I try to give you a voice in my head. Haven't quite narrowed it down yet... so far its high pitched with a thick Balmer accent. Or maybe you sound like Randy Quaid from Major League 2 when he gets all mad (Wild Thing, you make my Butt Sing... I think I Loathe you!)

Brooks... read what I said again, "Every one of which is in worse shape than the O's through lack of capital, years of mismanagement and poor signings." Some of them have little choice because of circumstances.

Marlins- no money. They will make a run here and there based on talent, but they are constantly rebuilding because no one cares in S FLA and the stadium sucks.

Cleveland- just traded two Cy Young award winners. Imagine if that happened in Baltimore a year after reaching the ALCS.

Oakland- same as the marlins. No one cares, sucky stadium, no money, get good, then blow it up.

Texas- they may finally get it right with Nolan Ryan running things, otherwise, they have been a comedy of errors in the free agent market and player development. Name a decent pitcher they have had in the past 10 years.

Toronto- Just traded Halladay, stuck with Wells and stuck in Canada. Their "plan" hasn't worked since 1994.

With the O's, at least there is hope and direction for the future.

All,

I have officially given up on Shamrock for my New Years Resolution. The guy basically argues against himself making both sides of the argument. Sounds like a Sox fan anyway! So Begone Shamrock, go bother the Sox blogs maybe they will understand that New England accent and argument tactics it doesn't resonate in Birdland!

Recently uncovered Wayne footage!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Qdnka2J-yI

or Wayne in Italian...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i26hmBh0h0c

Keith... any truth that you are also giving up commenting on this site to form your own page with Wayne www.incoherantlybitchin'boutthebirds.com

you guys need a little lift. My friends at the Warehouse told me to share this with you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Mr7mQuGmp0

Have a New Year.

Hi Pete. I heard a rumor that quite frankly eclipses the reported O's / Holliday deal: Disney wants to offer you 150 million for your life story and a subsequent blockbuster movie deal. It's to be called "Schmuck (as in Schmooze)". You will be portrayed by Brian Dennehy and the director will be J.J.Putz (as in boots). I can;t wait. Cheers, BGJ, Gulfport, FL.

Pete,
This seemingly innocuous article sure stirred up a hornets nest of activity. Folks are bogged down in minutia and don't see the big picture.
There are only two ways for the Orioles to return to greatness.
1)MLB institutes a hard salary cap
2)MLB folds due to irreconcilable differences and a new WORLD BASEBALL LEAGUE emerges. I suspect that the BALT-DC area would get a team. This is the scenario I want, but it would certainly take several decades. A new type of aircraft that can traverse half the planet in just a few hours would be required to make this feasible. Presuming that civilization persists in its current form for at least a few more centuries, a WBL would most likely evolve due to world wide demand. Teams would be in the USA, Mexico, Cuba, Venezuela, the Caribbean, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Australia, Europe and South Africa for starters. There would be a TRUE World Series!
With baseball in its current form, you could still look forward to the Orioles winning a pennant once per generation.

If a guy who's capable of hitting 35-40 home runs in the worst hitters park in the game isn't worth superstar money, who is?

Well, since you seem to imply that he hit all those homers at home, I just want to clarify. He hit 12. Kouzmanoff was just 3 shy of that number. Wanna give Kouzmanoff superstar money too?

Look, I'm not dissing Gonzalez. He's a nice player and I would like to have him on the team, but I don't think that 1st base should take up a large portion of a team's salary. For instance, if it came down to a decision between Gonzalez 35-40 homers at 20 mil a year, and someone else hitting 25-30 homers at 10 mil, well....I'm taking the latter, every time. Especially with this team that is expected to have plus power from C and CF, places where most teams are weak.

"Well, since you seem to imply that he hit all those homers at home, I just want to clarify. He hit 12."

My apologies.

I should have said, "If a guy who's capable of hitting 35-40 home runs while playing half of his games in the worst hitters park in the game..."

If Gonzalez hit 12 homers at Petco in 2009, that means he hit 28 on the road while playing in normal sized ballparks.

Looking at those splits, I would expect that the guy could hit 50+ homers at Oriole Park.

WHY?
do people keep saying we ANOTHER big bat for the middle of the lineup....as if there is a big bat that currently exists and needs protection.
The Os HAVE NO BIG BATS, and need minimum 2 big bats (1B&3B), but could make big strides in 2010 with a 3rd big bat in the DH spot with ....Jermaine Dye.

The Orioles have been saving money for years, made a splash with MASN, and avoided high priced free agents, or vice versa, for some time now.
Is there a fan out there who really believes that this organization can't afford to pay:
Joel Piniero- SP (Tillman is not ready)
Adam LaRoche- 1B (trade bait in 2012)
Jermaine Dye-(DH,1B,& OF...... perfect)

I sometimes wonder....
First off, free agents have to AGREE to a contract. This isn't ps3 where you just sign players to your roster. Look at Tampa Bays model, they grew up through the farm, added pieces. The Braves for years through the farm, added pieces. The Phillies, they are home grown, then added a couple pieces. You spend big money on a player that you can build around. Not just on a player b/c he is available. Think yoju can build around Matt Holliday? Then why is St Louis bidding against themselves??

Not Brooks, you continuously post Hollidays ops from june ot july I believe (the end of his stint in Oak). The issue with that is, we can make ANY player look good if we arbitrarily take a small sample (except for Y. Betancourt maybe). Luke Scott looked like a bonafide all-star the 1st half of the season. So Matt's whole Oak stint has to be taken into consideration. Which wasn't bad, but are VERY similar to Nolan Reimold's numbers.. So do you really want to pay 8/130 for player that is basically a 30 year old version of Nolan Reimold??

And for those that are saying "just flip Reimold or Pie for A-Gonz". Really? So you are going to spend 8/130 on Holliday, then trade another young piece for A-Gon, who is great, but is going to command a very similar contract, in a year I believe. (I could buy him being worth that type of money when you consider parks, offense and defense). Unless you are going to outspend the yankees, you don't win buy just spending money, you win by being smart. You guys didn't learn that years ago, remember, Raffy, Javy Lopez and Tejada? How did that work out....

Can someone explain to me why signing Holliday is in violation of "The Plan"? Why exactly can't the team start to improve itself on more than one dimension (the youngsters)? If Holliday comes over, maybe other free agents will want to begin to consider playing here.

I don't think its a violation of "the plan". My point is really the "need to sign Holliday to prove something to the fans". That I don't agree with. Especially in an area that we are set with more or less. If it was Adrian Gonzalez, or Mark Tex last year, I would be fine with that, but don't overspend for 1) a pretty good player and 2) a player at a position we don't need.

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About Peter Schmuck
Peter Schmuck wants you to know that, contrary to popular belief, he is more than just a bon vivant, raconteur and collector of blousy flowered shirts. He is a semi-respected journalist who has covered virtually every sport -- except luge, of course – and tackled issues that transcend the mere games people play. If that isn’t enough to qualify him to provide witty, wide-ranging commentary on the sports world ... and the rest of the world, for that matter ... he is an avid reader of history, biography and the classics, as well as a charming blowhard who pops off on both sports and politics on WBAL Radio. That means you can expect a little of everything in The Schmuck Stops Here, but the major focus will be keeping you up to the minute on Baltimore’s major sports teams and themes, whether it’s throwing up the Orioles lineup the minute it’s announced or updating you on the latest sprained ankle in Owings Mills. Oh, and by the way, that’s Mr. Schmuck to you.

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