GO PHILLIES!!!!!

No one wants to see NY Vs Philly, they want to see the worst teams in the AL and NL, battle it out in a 7 game series. O's Vs Nats, should be on the under card, as it's better than listening to the game being dissected by the Phillips fanatic. Speaking of Mr. Phillips, I saw pix on AOL of the intern and people say Paranormal Activity is scary, boy they haven't seen her, as she makes Monica look Megan Fox.

Pete, crazy question for you, but would do you think about Flanny, as the bench coach? I believe he hired Dave to be the BP coach, but other than that, I have no clue what their relationship is, but Flanny does know this team since many of the players were drafted under his reign and his knowledge of pitching, can't be questioned so perhaps he would have a a better grasp than just about any other candidate.

Phillies in six!

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Pete's reply: Flanny as bench coach is interesting but impractical. You would be putting a former pitching coach on the bench in a position to overrule the pitching coach on pitching. Too many cooks.

Not sure you have to give the Yankees that much credit.

They missed the playoffs last year with a $200M payroll and had to spend a quarter of a billion dollars to make it back.

I'll give more credit to the Twins, who at least made the ALDS interesting with a fraction of the Yanks payroll.

Or the Dodgers, Rockies or Phillies, who have succeeded with homegrown talent and solid trades.

Schmuck, you must be drinking. First of all, it wasnt Melky covering right over the bag at second, it was Cano, who was holding the runner on second to take away the stolen base threat. Back fired for the angels because he hit it right to him. That didnt have a thing to do with advance scouting or coaching. I mean are you kidding? I feel like I might be the goat, because you must be kidding. Even the announcers mentioned it. This is one of the foolish things ive ever heard you suggest! Again, unless your joking.

Plus im not sure why the Yankees have any reason to celebrate anything. Burnett, CC, and Pettite are paid higher than 3-4 major league teams. You tip the scales that much... I feel like its a failure if you dont win the WS.

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Pete's reply: Sorry, I got Melky and Cano confused. No, I'm not joking. The Yankees have been in the right place at the right time throughout the postseason. I said it was great scouting and dugout coaching, if I recall. I'll go fix the mixup. Believe it or not, people -- not you, of course -- make mistakes.

Amybe it's academic now but you have to wonder what Scosia was thinking bringing Kazmir into a tight game. He has a history of wildness and he came in and allowed the Yanks to tack on 2 key runs. It looks like Scosia lost all faith in his 'pen/lat inning guys, Fuentes in particular.
Not once did an Angels' pitcher knock down Arod or even pitch him inside, which probably explains why he didn't swing and miss at any pitches in the series(pretty amazing stat!).
Anwyay, the Yanks were the better team, seemed to get the benefit of the doubt on close pitches and the Angels didn't produce when they had to.
I'm hoping foe the Phils but it looks like the Yanks have more depth and will win in 6. The Phillies 'pen is shaky and anyone who says closers are over-rated are wrong!!

Do you know what i thought about most when i was watching all the playoff games, THE ANSWER IS VERY SIMPLE,That any kid in baltimore age 18 or under has been robbed of all the excitement and memories that the home team provides playing meaning full games in the fall. See i said 18 because it's been 12 straight losing season's here and then factor in the kids age until he understands the game a little. When i viewed all the kids in the stands with there dads, cheering with there gloves on it almost brought tears to my eyes. I have been very fortunate to at least have memories of the orioles when they were the best team in all of baseball, yes i said all of baseball. We have been deprived of all of that through all of the last 12 years due to total mismanagement. But don't fear fans because andy is now here and everything is going to be different. See i got a little emotional in the begining of my posting and forgot to tell you what else i noticed when i was watching all the play off games and that is just how far we are to even being on the same field with those teams.But once again i am told next year is going to be different, except for the fact that Dave t has been brought back to baby sit instead of nmanage which surely indicates that there will be many many more brisk evenings without baseball in this town. And pete that is very sad.

i did not watch one pitch of the A L C S and i do not plan on watching one pitch of the world series. it has been 9 years since the yankees have been to the world series.this is the year for the yankees. i wish the philies could do it in 4,but i think it will be the other way around.

i goofed i thought it was 9 years since the yankees made it to the fall clasic. i see that it has been 6 years since they played in the world series.i still would like to see the philies take it 4 games. not going to happen,but it would be fine with me.

If spending $420 million in off-season acquisitions and getting clutch-hitting from an admitted steroid user is the way the game is MEANT to be played, than you're right, Peter, the Yanks ARE playing the game the way it's supposed to be played.

I look forward to the world series when some fat ass sportswriter sums up the matchup as between two teams 'who play the game the way it is not supposed to be played'.

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Pete's reply: Good point. Perhaps a svelte, handsome, charming fellow like you should have your own blog.

Go Phillies!!!! Yankees suck

All I know for sure is that Baseball should not be played in November. The season is way too long. My oldest daughter was born the day Dave Mcnally hit a grand slam homer gainst the Reds on October 13 1970. The series ended with an Orioles winning the World Championship on the 15th.

Now it won't even start until the 28th, weather permitting, and will drag into November.

The players and management need to agree to shorten the season by playing legitimate doubleheaders, and not the night the day night crap so that the greedy bast***s can get separate gates for each game.

A dozen real doubleheaders for each team would put the end of the season back where it should be, which in NOT after Halloween.

Trick or treat to the greedy union and management scum.

Is Fox's Ken Rosenthal the same Ken Rosenthal who used to work at The Sun? I loved Derek Jeter's put-down of Rosenthal's negative first interview question after the game.

GO YANKEES!!

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Pete's reply: Yes, that's our Ken, who I think did a great job during the ALCS.

Average 2009 Opening Day Roster Salary:

World Series Teams (Yankees, Phillies): $157,000,000
League Championship Series Teams (Yankees, Phillies, Dodgers, Angels): $132,000,000
Division Series Teams (Yankees, Phillies, Dodgers, Angels, Twins, Cardinals, Red Sox, Rockies): $110,000,000
Rest of MLB: $80,000,000

Peter: I guess that "playing the game the way it is supposed to be played" means taking advantage of MLB's skewed economic playing field to outspend other teams and corner the market on the best talent. I know this is something we are all aware of but didn't realize the impact of money was nearly linear- $22-30m (~30%) in spending represents the difference between a non-playoff team and a playoff one, a playoff one and a league championship contender, and a league championship contender and a world series team. And, I expect, this trend will hold true in predicting the WS champion. The numbers don't lie.

What's the point, when you can pretty much look at each team's opening day salary and know how the year will turn out? Yes, there will be the occasional low-spending winners and big-spending losers, but that is the exception. At least with the NFL you can feel like you go into each phase of team development- the draft, free agency, etc- on an equal footing with other teams, and the beginning of each season is marked by uncertainty for nearly every team. Teams can go from bottom to top (and vice versa) unexpectedly, and fans aren't beset by hopelessness that their teams will ever be able to compete because of the way the system is stacked against them.

So go ahead and talk about "playing the game the way it is meant to be played." All I see is structural inequity, and until that is resolved MLB will continue its slide into irrelevance.

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Pete's reply: I'm talking about how the game is played on the field. The Yankees didn't create the economic system. What do you want them to do, just keep all their profits and go with a $50 million payroll? I don't think you can hold their success against them. It's up to MLB to make the playing field more level.

I was rooting for the Angels, that's too bad they lost. Go Phillies!!

I think the Phillies are going to be a much tougher out for the Yankees than the Angels were. They can match the Yankees power. Philly in 6 or 7.

Hey Pete, sorry if this disappointments you but though I'm a life long O's fan (47 now) and learned real early on to hate the Yankees I am rooting for them in this World Series. Here's why: MIKE MUSSINA.
I still consider him a turncoat and trader and since the day he committed treason I have told every Yankee fan I've met, and there's been plenty, that Mussina was a curse to them and they would never win a World Series again as long as he was with them and as you know, they, and even better yet, Mussina, NEVER won a World Series with him. I think it would be absolutely wonderful for them to now win the World Series the very 1st year without him on the team. Screw Mike Mussina.

Andrew;

Money is important, but not nearly as much as good management. Ask yourself, if PA had left Gillick alone to run the team for the last 12 years, do you doubt that the Os would have been a pretty consistently winning team that would have found its way to the playoffs a few times.

Fans of middle market teams like the Os, who point at the Yankees money, are just building an excuse for the bad management of their teams.

Pete--I've watched the Yankees day and and day out on TV for many seasons. As impressed as you are by their advanced scouting, coaching, and positioning of ball players, all those things can't make up for the following:

Robbie Cano plays balls hit to his left sloppily. He is strong to his right but can be pretty ugly when he goes to his left.

Johnny Damon plays left field as if he were moving through a mine field. And he throws the ball as if it were a hand grenade.

Jeter has had an outstanding all-around season. He remains, weak, though on ground balls hit to his left.

Jorge Posada's arm has not bounced back.

A-Rod no longer moves well on balls hit to his right.

Anyone who has the gall to sit in the obscenely priced seats behind home plate at Yankee Stadium is begging for a criminal investigation.

Can't wait for the Yanks to market an alternate hat with the interlocking NY replaced by the charming smile of Rudy Giuliani.

Barry;

You're right about Jeter being weak defensively. If you want to know how bad, read this article by Bill James.
http://www.billjamesonline.net/fieldingbible/jeter.asp

A teaser quote, "Derek Jeter could be the worst defensive shortstop of all time." He isn't kidding and makes a compelling case.

Barry. I can't stand the Yanks either but I wish that was all the 'shortcomings' the '09 Orioles had!
I have to agree with you on Damon and pretty pathetic that he was removed for defensive purposes in favour of a back-up 2B(Jerry Hairston)!
Still, the Yanks and their fans are all one big happy family now I suppose....I really hope the Phils can take them down.

"both play the game the way it is supposed to be played"!??!!? LOL, Pete, has your head been in the sand for the playoffs so far? Let's see, video emerges of Rivera SPITTING on the ball, half the yankees staff has taken performance enhancing drugs, they have paid off umpires (how else do you account for all the "botched" calls that have gone the Yanks way in the ALCS?)....I would think all of this adds up to be THE MOST UNSAVORY way to play the game...The angels got blackballed for World Series ratings....oh well, that will make Cliff Lee's no-no in game one even more sweeter.....Phils in 5

blancione, you're exactly right.

My daughter is 18 and a freshman at College Park. She was taken to Memorial Stadium as a wee baby (which of course she doesn't remember) and to Camden Yards many times per year when our family still had season tickets.

Most of the time, she sat politely for two, maybe three innings, before she wanted something to eat. That was okay; we always planned on eating at the ballpark regardless of the economic nonsense associated with it. By the end of the fifth inning, she was ready to go The Rocks -- the picnic area where her imagination would run wild as she did mysterious things with the stones. (Throwing them at the opposing pitcher warming up in the bullpen wasn't one of them.)

Of course, she never got caught up in the excitement baseball can provide. On most evenings, she sensed my wife and I were witnessing a funeral. The cheers to the Orioles and the catcalls to the opponents were typically drubbed out by the silence a 4-1 deficit with a pitcher searching for home plate can provide.

After a couple more innings, she would plead to leave early. I NEVER leave early. My wife and I tried going in separate cars once but thought maybe that was sending a worse global message. We tried arriving late, but two-thirds of the time the visitors had already taken the lead they wouldn't give up by the time we settled in.

As my daughter got older, going to the game was almost punishment. She traded her imagination in for conversation. It could have been conversations interspersed with fun baseball action to talk about, but between an owner who would rather win a hissing match with whoever rather than a pennant or even 51% of the games, the picnic area was fine by me. So was leaving early. A few less innings of being told when and how to cheer by an organization that should do some listening rather than some telling was sadly preferred.

The last game I took my daughter to an Oriole game was Opening Day 2000. We left in the middle of the second inning. We didn't bother to go to our seats (second row, upper deck, right behind home plate). I didn't see one pitch.

My wife and I went to the balance of our ticket plan, but that was it for our daughter, then age 9.

Fast forward to her attending all of the Terp home games for football. The excitement of rooting for a team TRYING to win has her recruiting me to attend a game at Byrd Stadium. I haven't been there since I had season tickets to the USFL Baltimore Stars six years before she was born and one year before I met her mother.

And that's not all. She wants to go to a Ravens game. She wants a Ray Lewis jersey HER size, not my Testaverde jersey that fits her like a dress. She wants a breast cancer awareness Ravens cap. She enjoyed going to Columbia last year to cheer the Ravens back after their heartbreaking loss #3 to the Steelers, and she wants more.

It doesn't matter the Ravens are 3-3 and heading who knows where. What matters is the Ravens are TRYING to win. She'll figure the rules later.

As for the Orioles, her favorite food used to be dipping dots. But that was nine years ago. She's a young adult now.

Waspman, that was a great story.Out of 23 postings nobody else even considerd what i said to have any merit to it. The fans of this town have just grown accustomed to losing and it has become second nature to most of them. The other ones who care are labled traitors and are told to find something else to do with there time.See they all say that the playoff teams that made it to the dance this year all bought there way there, That is mostly true but the one thing that all these's teams had was good leadership from there manager and players who were willing to run through walls once they crossed the white lines. We don't have any of that and by bringing Dave t back andy is telling everybody that we still won't> He is just a place holder until andy thinks they have a chance. I can't believe a GM who is experinced as andy not wanting to make his own hire instead of just staying status quo with a guy who certainly is a gentleman but doesn't have a clue how to win at this level. Just don't understand the whole thing , but oh well thanks again waspman for understanding and for actually experincing that same loss.

"It doesn't matter the Ravens are 3-3 and heading who knows where. What matters is the Ravens are TRYING to win."

So, according to your logic, if the Ravens are mediocre and heading "who knows where", everything is cool despite the fact that they haven't addressed dire needs for another receiver and a legitimate secondary. Despite failing to fill those needs, they're still "trying to win".

But if the Orioles are bad, heading who knows where, and also failing to fill dire needs, they're a joke and they're "trying to lose"?

That's what you're saying, right?

bob -

One thing that bothers me about your posts is that you always group Oriole fans into two categories. To you, people are either...

a. sheep who are accustomed to losing, who follow the team blindly and agree with every move that management makes

b. "people who care"

Two thoughts for you:

1. Just because some people don't have the exact same outlook on the team that you have doesn't mean that they accept losing.

2. I care about this team. That's why I'm excited about this team. There's an astronomical difference between 1998 through mid 2007 and mid 2007 through now. Actual change has taken place in this organization over the past two years for the first time in forever.

Gone:
- Signing past their prime free agents to three year deals
- Signing relievers to big contracts
- Rushing talented prospects
- Holding on to trade-able veterans until it's too late

Here:
- Locking up young cornerstone players
- Allowing young arms to mature
- Opening up relations with Japanese free agents
- More international scouting
- Trading veterans who aren't are part of the future for prospects who are

Honestly, my friend. Step back. Look at how much progress this organization has made since Andy MacPhail took over.

I'm sorry that he hasn't been able to turn this team into a contender in two years. I really am. I would have loved that just as much as you.

But if you think about it, seriously, think about it, how long does it take to rebuild a house with a rotting foundation? Can you just squeeze in some wood glue and bang in a couple of nails? Nope. You have to rebuild from the ground up. And that's what's being done.

So, for the last time, stop throwing everyone who disagrees with you into your "accustomed to losing" group. Maybe there are some people in Baltimore that are cool with losing, but I'm not one of them. And anyone who takes time to post on Pete's blog probably isn't one of them either.

Oh, and on the Trembley re-hire. Here's a thought: Maybe Andy knew that he couldn't get an experienced manager to take over this team. Do you really think that Bobby Valentine or Eric Wedge or even Manny Acta would be interested in managing the Orioles? Not so much. So maybe Andy thought it would be better to stick with the guy who has a year and a half of experience, already knows the team and has the respect of the players than going with some other Joe with no big league time who would be learning as he goes.

Dave Trembley probably isn't the best man for this job, but coming off a 98 loss season, I'm betting it would be pretty difficult to find the right guy.

Boy this is so exciting that news it fits YOUR DRIBBLE to perfection. Think that I will go to sleep and wait for a mid March wake call. I hope that by that time the editors at the SUN have discovered that you are clueless and a SCHAM!

B it's been 2/1/2 years on the job and if the players actually respected him like you say they wouldn't keep making all the fundemental mistakes that he say's won't happen on a team managed by him. 20 years in the minors with only 7 winning seasons. He is nothing but a bay sitter who andy wants back to coddle the youngsters instead of having somebody that demands respect and has actually earn it.You might be right about nobody wanting to come here and that holds true to acquiring players as well.

The O's made so many fundamental mistakes (mostly base running blunders) this year because of Trembley?

That's rich.

Who made most of those mistakes? If I remember correctly (I'm trying to block out most of last season), the main culprits were...

Felix Pie, who is known for having all the talent in the world but being unable to harness it. Kid probably needs a bit more seasoning before he gets the entire big league game under control.

Brian Roberts, who probably hated life for a while after he signed that extension. The poor guy also probably felt the weight of the world on his shoulders on the base paths. In the back of his mind, he had to be thinking, "Heck, if I don't stretch this single into a double or steal that base, there's no way we're going to score".

And last but not least...

Ty Wigginton. The big man is just a terrible base runner. Among other blunders, he's attempted 27 steals over the past four years and he's been caught 15 times. Ouch.

Look i am not going to get into a back and forth chess game with you B. You know dam well right what i am talking about. There is nothing to defend trembley on except the fact that andy by the rehire is already telling you it will be another long year. It has become quite evident to me that the majority of the posters on this and roch sites are young people that don't have a clue what i am talking about in regards to kids at the ball games or when the orioles were actually respected and followed as the model franchise in baseball.

b;

I agree with you. There is finally reason for hope. Something is being built as opposed to patching up something that was dilapitated.

On the subject of DT, this is what AM had to say when he announced he was keeping him on.

"I always felt that Dave Trembley did exactly what this franchise asked him to do, He was charged with nurturing and developing and bringing along a lot of what we think are young, talented players, and trying to introduce them in the proper environment where they can enjoy some success. In my view, he has accomplished that mission."

It would seem that a lot of posters on here have been judging DT by standards that AM doesn't share.

bob -

I'm 25 years old and I sure as heck know all about the time when the Orioles were respected as the model franchise in baseball. Do you know why? Because my dad is almost 60 and he lived and breathed the Orioles up until their downfall and he taught me everything he knows about baseball.

Don't be so arrogant. Just because younger people didn't live through better times when it comes to the O's doesn't mean they don't understand the difference between a good organization and a bad one.

Schmuck,

I wasnt getting on you about the Cano Melky mixup, thats just a mix up. And im not here to nit pic little things. I just had to call you on that particular play. You have to know Cano was there to keep the runner close, and not because he was predicting an up the middle hit. That was my beef. I dont want the Yankees getting any more credit than they deserved. If they had good scouting, than fine, but that play had NOTHING to do with scouting.

Im sick of this team and im sick of them getting credit for anything when all they do dump gold coins on all the top talent in the league. Makes me feel like dont have much to be poud of, WS or no WS!.

Sorry if I sounded like an Error Hunting Brat. Not my intention. Just a frustrated yakee hater.

Schmuck,

I wasnt getting on you about the Cano Melky mixup, thats just a mix up. And im not here to nit pic little things. I just had to call you on that particular play. You have to know Cano was there to keep the runner close, and not because he was predicting an up the middle hit. That was my beef. I dont want the Yankees getting any more credit than they deserved. If they had good scouting, than fine, but that play had NOTHING to do with scouting.

Im sick of this team and im sick of them getting credit for anything when all they do dump gold coins on all the top talent in the league. Makes me feel like dont have much to be poud of, WS or no WS!.

Sorry if I sounded like an Error Hunting Brat. Not my intention. Just a frustrated yakee hater.

Schmuck,

I wasnt getting on you about the Cano Melky mixup, thats just a mix up. And im not here to nit pic little things. I just had to call you on that particular play. You have to know Cano was there to keep the runner close, and not because he was predicting an up the middle hit. That was my beef. I dont want the Yankees getting any more credit than they deserved. If they had good scouting, than fine, but that play had NOTHING to do with scouting.

Im sick of this team and im sick of them getting credit for anything when all they do dump gold coins on all the top talent in the league. Makes me feel like dont have much to be poud of, WS or no WS!.

Sorry if I sounded like an Error Hunting Brat. Not my intention. Just a frustrated yakee hater.

Schmuck,

I wasnt getting on you about the Cano Melky mixup, thats just a mix up. And im not here to nit pic little things. I just had to call you on that particular play. You have to know Cano was there to keep the runner close, and not because he was predicting an up the middle hit. That was my beef. I dont want the Yankees getting any more credit than they deserved. If they had good scouting, than fine, but that play had NOTHING to do with scouting.

Im sick of this team and im sick of them getting credit for anything when all they do dump gold coins on all the top talent in the league. Makes me feel like dont have much to be poud of, WS or no WS!.

Sorry if I sounded like an Error Hunting Brat. Not my intention. Just a frustrated yakee hater.

Schmuck,

I wasnt getting on you about the Cano Melky mixup, thats just a mix up. And im not here to nit pic little things. I just had to call you on that particular play. You have to know Cano was there to keep the runner close, and not because he was predicting an up the middle hit. That was my beef. I dont want the Yankees getting any more credit than they deserved. If they had good scouting, than fine, but that play had NOTHING to do with scouting.

Im sick of this team and im sick of them getting credit for anything when all they do dump gold coins on all the top talent in the league. Makes me feel like dont have much to be poud of, WS or no WS!.

Sorry if I sounded like an Error Hunting Brat. Not my intention. Just a frustrated yakee hater.

Schmuck,

I wasnt getting on you about the Cano Melky mixup, thats just a mix up. And im not here to nit pic little things. I just had to call you on that particular play. You have to know Cano was there to keep the runner close, and not because he was predicting an up the middle hit. That was my beef. I dont want the Yankees getting any more credit than they deserved. If they had good scouting, than fine, but that play had NOTHING to do with scouting.

Im sick of this team and im sick of them getting credit for anything when all they do dump gold coins on all the top talent in the league. Makes me feel like dont have much to be poud of, WS or no WS!.

Sorry if I sounded like an Error Hunting Brat. Not my intention. Just a frustrated yakee hater.

Schmuck,

I wasnt getting on you about the Cano Melky mixup, thats just a mix up. And im not here to nit pic little things. I just had to call you on that particular play. You have to know Cano was there to keep the runner close, and not because he was predicting an up the middle hit. That was my beef. I dont want the Yankees getting any more credit than they deserved. If they had good scouting, than fine, but that play had NOTHING to do with scouting.

Im sick of this team and im sick of them getting credit for anything when all they do dump gold coins on all the top talent in the league. Makes me feel like dont have much to be poud of, WS or no WS!.

Sorry if I sounded like an Error Hunting Brat. Not my intention. Just a frustrated yakee hater.

blancione;

I became an Os fan when I saw them in the '66 WS. I'm not one of the younger posters that you don't think capable of understanding what you're saying. Yeah, remembering what we used to be makes 12 straight years of losing especially tough to swallow. I share your pain.

That said, and with sincere respect, I think you've let it make you a little too negative. No new GM was going to come to Baltimore and take a team in the middle of a 10 year losing streak and turn it into a winning if not competitive club in two years. Pat Gillick wouldn't have been able to do that.

Look back at the rostor that was so deserving of a 10 year losing streak. Miggy, Bedard, Roberts, Markakis and Guthrie were the only guys that would arguably be starters on a contender. Bedard wanted out and Miggy had to go, leaving us with just Brian, Nick and Guthrie.

If you expected that to be built into a winner by now, at least some of your frustration is due to unrealistic expectations.

Sixth time is a charm, eh Craig?

(Just kidding, my friend. I feel your pain.)

Schmuck,

I wasnt getting on you about the Cano Melky mixup, thats just a mix up. And im not here to nit pic little things. I just had to call you on that particular play. You have to know Cano was there to keep the runner close, and not because he was predicting an up the middle hit. That was my beef. I dont want the Yankees getting any more credit than they deserved. If they had good scouting, than fine, but that play had NOTHING to do with scouting.

Im sick of this team and im sick of them getting credit for anything when all they do dump gold coins on all the top talent in the league. Makes me feel like dont have much to be poud of, WS or no WS!.

Sorry if I sounded like an Error Hunting Brat. Not my intention. Just a frustrated yakee hater.

bob c--Jeter may not have deserved the Gold Gloves, but to suggest he's among the worst fielding shortstops of all time is shortsighted on your part despite what James' obsessive-compulsive stat hunting indicates, and here's why.

You can talk about his lack of range all you want and it's true, it's definitely a liability for him, but he makes up by having the best baseball IQ and instinct of anyone to play that position not named Ripken. He's made some incredibly heady plays in the postseason this year, reminiscent of "The Flip," one of the best plays ever in a playoff game (even though replays seem to indicate that Giambi--that's Jeremy Giambi, not his older brother Jason, should anyone be confused--beat the ball to the plate on a bang-bang play).

That's a play that only Jeter and a very few others can make or, more importantly, would even think of making!

bob c--Jeter may not have deserved the Gold Gloves, but to suggest he's among the worst fielding shortstops of all time is shortsighted on your part despite what James' obsessive-compulsive stat hunting indicates, and here's why.

You can talk about his lack of range all you want and it's true, it's definitely a liability for him, but he makes up by having the best baseball IQ and instinct of anyone to play that position not named Ripken. He's made some incredibly heady plays in the postseason this year, reminiscent of "The Flip," one of the best plays ever in a playoff game (even though replays seem to indicate that Giambi--that's Jeremy Giambi, not his older brother Jason, should anyone be confused--beat the ball to the plate on a bang-bang play).

That's a play that only Jeter and a very few others can make or, more importantly, would even think of making!

closers are overrated

The Yankees have more home grown talent on their taem than any other. Get better players and, get a better team and then complain about the system. The Orioles leave $40M a year in the coffers when they could spend them on players. Angelos has paid down his debt on the Orioles and not spent on players.

bob c - In spite of of Bill James says, and probably most Oriole fans, I would rather have Jeter than Ripken.

b said, "So, according to your logic, if the Ravens are mediocre and heading "who knows where", everything is cool despite the fact that they haven't addressed dire needs for another receiver and a legitimate secondary. Despite failing to fill those needs, they're still "trying to win".

But if the Orioles are bad, heading who knows where, and also failing to fill dire needs, they're a joke and they're "trying to lose"?

That's what you're saying, right?"

No, b. You got it all wrong.

The Ravens did go out and get secondary help. I don't know if you noticed or not, but truly good CB's are at a major shortage league-wide. Those who have them aren't giving them up. Furthermore, the Ravens didn't draft high enough to get one that way.

Ozzie did a proper job addressing those needs given (a) the cap, (b) the other needs, many cap-related, (c) the limited number of draft choices every NFL team has, and (d) no farm system.

In case you haven't noticed, most NFL teams have needs. Using the Aikman Efficiency Rating, a far more accurate measure of winning and losing than the NFL standard of total yards, only seven teams are above the league average on both offense and defense. The Ravens are one of those teams.

The point is one could disagree with the methodology Ozzie uses or how Bisciotti spends the money or whatever, but there is not one inkling of evidence they weren't persuing a winning formula that would again bring a championship to Baltimore.

At 3-3, I haven't given up hope on the Ravens to go further than last year. If the defense improves, and it could improve with the players they have right now, the big plays could be erased and the defense wouldn't look so terrible.

By contrast, the Orioles were 6-2 in April and I felt secure my 58-win prediction wouldn't be that far off. And it wasn't.

The Ravens go 5-11, it's an aberration. The Orioles lose 85 games, it's business as usual.

Despite my woeful prediction for 2009, I did also predict the Orioles will improve in 2010. I'm not against the youth movement but there are avenues of improvement. The Orioles aren't interested.

I'm still not convinced MacPhail is given a pass to do what he wants. It seems the mantra of "We'll spend money to get better once we are better" is a recipe for "Why spend money to get better when we are already better?" But I'm willing to hope some good may come of it.

We can analyze it to death. The point of my original post was my daughter was taken to numerous Oriole games. There was never a reason in her life to get excited about them. She didn't fail. I didn't fail.

The Orioles failed.

And by the way, I NEVER said they are trying to lose. I'm sure Angelos would love to say I told you so to the people who have the audacity look at his actions, his inactions and their results. But Angelos has an agenda to do things his way for whatever motive.

Those actions and inactions have gotten in the way of winning, pure and simple. He neither regrets his role nor does he do anything to change it. Or even be accountable for it. Therefore, anyone with a brain can only conclude there are other things at stake that are much more important to Angelos than winning.

It is not just obvious to those who look closely. It is obvious to those like my daughter who said viewing from afar is good enough, thank you. You don't have to be pulling bodies out of a train wreck to know a train wreck isn't good.

"What matters is the Ravens are TRYING to win."

Maybe you just worded it wrong, but given the context of the post, that's an obvious insinuation that the Orioles aren't trying to win.

Ken Francis;

You're absolutely right that Jeter makes some great plays. He is a tremendous athlete. The flip to the plate you refer to was one of the best plays I've ever seen.

What Bill James, and I, would argue with you is the idea that those relatively few number of great plays makes up for the far more sizeable number of balls that that get past him that other shortstops would turn into routine looking outs. It was not for nothing that a few years ago Yankee fans took to calling him Derek Past-a-Diving Jeter.

If you want to see what the difference is between flashy play versus solid fundamental play, look at Jeter compared to Cal Ripkin.

In 14 years, Jeter threw out more than 400 guys only 3 times (13 times for Cal) with a high water mark of 457 (583 for Cal) and an average of 379. (476 for Cal) Put another way, 10 times in 14 years, Cal had more assists than Jeter had in his best season.

Sorry Ken, but the numbers don't lie and no amount of flashy plays can make up for Jeter's long history of not being able to throw out runners the way most other shortstops do. Yankee fans, who watch him the most, have figured that out.

EC;

All Bill James was talking about was defence. Jeter was definately a better hitter than Cal so, while I would prefer Cal, I won't argue with your choice. As far as defence is concerned though, its a joke to mention Jeter in the same sentence as Cal, Ozzie or any number of other good shortstops.

EC;

One last point about Jeter's defence. This past season, his range factor was 90th in all of baseball, just barely above dead last. That means that each of the 30 teams averaged three guys who turned more balls hit at them per 9 innings into outs than Jeter did. How much more awful does it get than that.

Bob C- Understand your point. but I respectfully disagree with range factor statistic.

There are varing methods to determine statistically fielding talent.

STATS, Inc. developed their own defensive rating system to also track locations of EVERY hit ball for EVERY game played - similar to the above Defensive Average statistic. The Zone Rating system is different because the area of responsibility, or zone, for each fielder is considered a "playable" area and does not account for balls hit into "Bermuda Triangles", "No Mans Land" or other impossible to field balls. A fielder that turns a double play is credited with 2 outs in the ZR system as their play on the ball actually resulted in both outs versus Defensive Average which only credits the 1 out. Based on this, he is ranked 10th best.

I'll still take Jeter.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=y&type=0&season=2009&month=0

On the Jeter/Ripken argument:

Defensively, Ripken takes the cake. No contest.

But it's pretty hard to compare the two offensively.

Jeter's hit 1st or 2nd for the Yankees for his entire career. He's been surrounded in the lineup by Chuck Knoblauch, Wade Boggs, Tino Martinez, Paul O'Neill, Bernie Williams, Jorge Posada, Alfonso Soriano, Jason Giambi, Hideki Matsui, Alex Rodriguez, Gary Sheffield, Robinson Cano, Bobby Abreu, Johnny Damon, Nick Swisher, and Mark Teixeira.

Cal was a middle of the order hitter who got to hit with Eddie Murray for seven years and Rafael Palmiero, Roberto Alomar and B.J. Surhoff for a few, but the rest of the supporting cast wasn't much. Mainly guys in the twilight of their careers or one year wonders.

I don't know about you guys, but I'll take the Jeter's supporting cast over Ripken's any day.

Another big part of the equation is the ballparks.

Cal played in Memorial Stadium, one of the better pitchers parks in the game, for half of his career. Imagine the power numbers he would have put up if he played in Oriole Park during his prime. He would have hit 500 home runs easily.

Jeter, on the other hand, played in hitter friendly Yankee Stadium for 13 seasons and he's probably got a few years left in the hitter's paradise known as New Yankee Stadium to pad his numbers.

Oh, and there's expansion as well. During the first 12 years of Cal's career, MLB had only 26 teams. Jeter played for two years against a 28 team MLB, but has played the vast majority of his career against the watered down 30 team MLB that we know today.

In short, I'm not sure that you can really compare these guys. They're both shortstops, but they were totally different hitters surrounded by totally different circumstances.

In the end, I'm still taking Cal, because without him, the O's might have one less World Series win and we might be talking about a much longer losing streak today.

I have no problem with my work being edited.

The Ravens place an extremely high priority on winning whereas it is apparently not as high on the Orioles' list.

If the Orioles are changing on that front, great. I hope they are.

Reading some of your other posts, it seems you ask every frustrated Oriole fan and disgruntled ex-fan that you gotta have hope. I'm there.

If somehow I'm just supposed to take The Warehouse's word for it, sorry, that's not good enough. A track record has been established from the days when Johnny Oates was managing and through the well-documented vetoes and snits. Just because Peter Angelos is incognito doesn't mean his pawprints aren't on eveything that happens or everything that is prevented from happening.

I don't know what goes on behind the scenes these days. And I don't need transparency. If the Orioles do something (beyond naming a bench coach for crying out loud), it will get reported. The direction or lack thereof will be self-evident.

The Orioles haven't just lost for 12 straight years, they had a realistic shot at winning it all once (twice if you really want to argue the other flawed playoff appearance) during the entire Angelos regime. Once.

Furthermore (and addressing my original response to a post that talked about an entire generation of locals like my daughter), the Orioles have gotten worse in the won-loss column for five straight years. That is hard to do if the high-water mark was 100 wins.

How else can an entire generation feel about the Orioles? Even their ads talk about the mascot, or the array of junk food, or some stadium doo-dad as being the reason families should go to Camden Yards.

How about a team that doesn't curl up into a fetal position when Andy Pettitte is pitching? Or a pitching staff that doesn't get lit up like the Hindenburg when Boston comes to town?

EC -

Sure, Jeter was ranked 10th in UZR in 2009, but you failed to mention that only 23 guys are ranked in your link. 10th of 23 is mediocre at best. And what about the rest of his career?

2008: 11th of 19 qualified players
2007: 24th of 25 " "
2006: 22nd of 25 " "
2005: 24th of 25 " "
2004: 15th of 23 " "
2003: 17th of 22 " "
2002: 16th of 26 " "

I think you get the point. You've got to use more than one piece of data to prove a point.

2009 was an outlier year for Jeter. Historically, he's been mediocre, below average or downright terrible in the field.

(Note: Unfortunately, there are no UZR numbers for Ripken, as STATS didn't start compiling that data until 2002.)

And here are Jeter's acutal UZR numbers:

2009: 6.4
2008: -0.5
2007: -15.3
2006: -6.8
2005: -14.3
2004: -0.4
2003: -2.2
2002: -0.2

So, basically, Jeter's 6.4 UZR in 2009 is roughly the defensive equivalent of Brady Anderson's 50 homers in 1996.

Ripken's range in his 14th year was nil. That's why he ended up at third.

Jeter’s strength, according to James’s system, is his ability to cleanly field balls he reaches. He led all shortstops last year with just 17 defensive misplays in 1,259 innings at short. Even when you count errors — which James claims were not counted in Defensive Misplays, so there’s no doubling up — Jeter comes out as the best shortstop in the majors.

I don't think he is the best by any means. He's certainly not the worst. He is certainly not downright terrible.

EC -

You just totally switched your focus.

In your last post, you based Jeter's defensive ability on UZR. His UZR was below average every season until 2009, so now your basing it on "his ability to cleanly field balls he reaches"?

Make up your mind, bud.

And who cares if Jeter was the best at cleanly fielding the balls he reached? The numbers show that he has below average range; aside from a +0.1 mark in 2002, his RngR has been below average (and sometimes WELL below average) every year until 2009.

So would you rather have a shortstop who makes all the easy plays cleanly or a shortstop who makes a few more errors but gets to significantly more balls?

You have no case, my friend. Face the facts. Derek Jeter is an excellent ballplayer. He hits well, runs well, does all the little things, "plays the game the right way". Despite a solid year with the glove in 2009, he's just not a good fielder.

EC;

I wasn't trying to claim that range factor is the be all and end of anything. As Bill James says, there is no single defensive stat that is. But as he also says, when you look at all of the different stats, RF, Zone Ranking etc, etc, Jeter comes off not looking very good.

The thing that occurs to me about the way Jeter plays defence is that his way of doing it is fundamentally wrong and usually drummed out of a young guy at an early age. With exceptions, making throws on the run just isn't as efficient as planting and throwing. It amazes me that an infield coach didn't straighten him out early on. Somehow, he made it all the way to the majors withjout running into the kind of coach I ran into at every level I played. Do you know, was he drafted out of high school or college.

bob c-
Jeter was the 6th overall pick in the 1992 amateur draft and was drafted by the Yankees. He had received a scholarship to attend the University of Michigan but decided to go pro after the Yankees drafted him.

b-
Jeter is still playing as a SS at an above average defensive level at a point in his career that Ripken moved to 3b.

I was pointing out that there are many calculations and statistics to judge players. All these are only a small step above fielding percentage. It's completely dependent on the type of pitchers an organization has. Having high strike out and fly ball pitchers will have a negative impact on an infielder's defensive numbers. Also, at the time where Ripken and the O's felt they needed to move him from SS because he couldn't play the position anymore stats like the FRAA still had him as a well above average defensive SS.

Even defensive stats like UZR have huge problem as they don't take into account thinks like players defensive positioning which is something that is more dependent on the managers and scouting reports than the players himself. I've said for years that Jeter's only defensive problem was positioning himself too far in the hole and when Girardi came in he fixed that. Since then Jeter has been playing as good or even better defense than he was when he was in his late 20's (according to UZR). Typically defense gets progressively worse starting around 25-28 and it's clear to everyone that watches baseball Jeter has lost a step on his speed since then. Given the kind of defensive impact he is having in his mid 30's, I find it very hard to believe that with better coaching Jeter couldn't have been just as good a defensive shortstop as he is now, if not significantly better through his prime.

There is simply no good way to compare their defense. However, Jeter has a sizeable offensive advantage that Jeter has over Cal so it's very unlikely that defense makes up that difference.

EC -

Jeter's had one above average defensive year in his entire career. Pretty much every defensive stat agrees on that.

Let's see if he can duplicate those numbers for at least another season or two before we start calling him an above average defensive player.

And how is it right that there's "no good way to compare their defense" but you can definitively state that Jeter has a "sizable offensive advantage"?

As I said before, they're completely different hitters. Cal was a middle of the order guy playing with a few stars every once in a while who played half of his career in a huge park as part of a 26 team MLB. Jeter's a top of order guy who has played with several All Stars for his entire career. He's also played all but two years of that career in a watered down 30 team MLB. And he's played in a hitters park the whole time.

Completely. Different. Hitters.

30 teams vs. 28. Okay, Cal also played more games on artifical turf.

Yankee Satdium is a hitters park for leftys. He is able to hit to the opposite field and that benefits him. Camden Yards is a band box from both sides of the plate. 364 to the power alley in left. Memorial Stadium 30 down the line.

And how is it right that there's "no good way to compare their defense" but you can definitively state that Jeter has a "sizable offensive advantage"?

Baseball has definitive offensive stats, not ones like 'he should have reached that one'. Many of the defensive states are subjective. But show he is above average, the league fielding percentage of shortstops over Jeter's tenure is .972. His lifeteime % is .976.

I will agree to disagree.

Fielding % is a throwaway stat. What's the point of talking about FRAA and UZR if you're going to bring up Fielding %?

I know that there offensive stats are more definitive than defensive stats. A players fielding ability is difficult to judge unless you watch every single play of every single game. That's what UZR does, so that's what I go with.

But back to offense... Obviously, Jeter's stats look better than Ripken's, but it would be ridiculous to argue against Jeter's advantages over Ripken:

- Both Yankee Stadiums are much better hitters parks than Memorial Stadium, regardless of what side a guy hits from

- Jeter's supporting cast has been infinitely better than Ripken's was.

- Ripken faced a 26 team MLB for half of his career. Jeter's faced a 30 team MLB for all but two years of his. The MLB that Jeter has faced is watered down by 20 more slots for starters and 50 some more slots for relievers.

Also, they're that much more different because of their spots in the batting order. As I said before, Jeter has hit 1st or 2nd his entire career. Ripken was a middle of the order guy.

In short, Jeter's numbers (at least avg/obp/slg and base running) look better on paper than Ripkens. But when you dig a little deeper and look into what kind of players they were and the factors that influenced their careers, it's near impossible to really compare them.

EC;

There is no other reason for consistently shading a SS to the hole other than because you don't think your SS can make enough plays from there if you don't.

If you agree with that, and I don't see how you couldn't, then Jeter having been shaded that way was an admission that Jeter, his manager, or both didn't think that he could make enough of the very plays that defines the position.

Question. What do you call a SS who can't make the play from the hole. Answer. A second baseman.

Cal, and other good SS don't have to cheat to the hole. They have the arms to be able to take a step and a half to the right, plant and throw the runner out. Either Jeter doesn't have the arm to do that, or it wasn't believed that his throwing on the run style of play would result in an acceptable number of outs being made.

Sorry, but if you were a lawyer defending Jeter of the charge of being a poor SS, your admission that Jeter had to be shaded to the hole just convicted your client.

b- You can't just pick the stats that suit your argument. All the other stats are subjective.

bob c- And Ripken could make a play to his backhand and the throw? Who are you kidding? He was great going up the middle. Players play to their strenghts and try to make up for their weaknesses. You can not judge Jeter based on his defensive stats alone. How many statistically better shortstops would have completed "The Flip" or the "The Dive" ? What set of stats accounts for the intangible qualities that Jeter pocesses ?

Jeter may not be among the defensive best at his position, but I suspect a poll of MLB managers would reveal more than a few who would love to have Jeter in place of their current SS.

Witness is excused.

EC -

I can choose to throw away stats that are meaningless. And Fielding % is meaningless. It tells you nothing aside from how many errors a guy made on the balls he fielded. So a guy could have a .999 Fielding % if he only fielded the balls hit right at him and one step to either side. Who cares?

Furthermore, if Player A and Player B both have a .980 Fielding %, but Player A had 550 total chances and Player B had 675, I'm taking Player B every day of the week.

And don't use "The Flip" to try to prove that Jeter's a good defender. One outstanding, extremely lucky play (that would have been worthless if Giambi wasn't an idiot and slid into home) doesn't make up for a 14 year career of below average defense.

And what's "The Dive"? The one where he fell into the stands after catching that pop up against the Red Sox? That is one of the most overrated plays in the history of the game. The guy made a running catch on a pop up and then fell into the crowd. How is that any better than an outfielder crashing into the outfield wall after running down a sure double? How is it any better than an infielder actually going into the crowd to make the catch?

If you're one of those people who think that Jeter actually caught the ball while diving into the crowd, here's the link:

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200805122685729

Come on, man. Every defensive stat around shows that, up until 2009, Jeter was a below average defender. Give it up.

EC;

You're kidding, right. Either that or you're a relatively young guy who didn't get to see Cal much in his prime. He could make the throw from the hole with the best of them. No shortstop who couldn't do that would have had a chance to set the all time single season record for assists as Cal did in 1984 with 583. That could only have been done by a SS who could make plays from anywhere, and did.

Run that number through your head for awhile. It was a mind boggling 204 more assists than Jeter averaged per year, and about 125 more than Jeter managed in his best season ever.

Yes, you're right that Cal was great on ground balls up the middle. You wouldn't be able to say that though if he didn't have a good arm and had to cheat to the hole the way Jeter did. Because of that deficiency on Jeter's part, he earned the ugly moniker that Yankee fans hung around his neck when they started calling him Derek Past-a-Diving Jeter. No one ever said anything like that about Cal.

As far as "the flip" is concerned, I'll give you a play by Cal that was every bit as good. 1989. Last game of the year against the Jays for the title. In the 6th inning, Kelly Gruber hit a one hop rocket that Cal dove for and speared. From his knees, Ripkin threw a laser to get him by an inch. The throw had such force that his arm action literally dragged him from his knees to his feet. If you ever have a chance to see that play, your jaw will hit the floor the same way mine did.

Keeping the "flip" in perspective, how many other times did Jeter, or anyone else for that matter, ever have the opportunity to make that play. You could count the number on your fingers I would imagine. That's not said to diminish what a truely great play it was.

How many extra times does a better than average arm throw out someone at first that an average or below average arm wouldn't. Off the top of my head I'd say it happens just about every day in at least some of the games that are played.

Simply put, no single spectacular play can be weighed against the hundreds, if not thousands of of relatively boring looking but good throws that above average SS make. I love watching good plays too, but the first judgement of defence is outs by the gross.

Jeter, and not just over a single year where the vagaries of baseball can be distorting, but over a telling span of 14 years, came up short of Cal by about 100 outs per year on throws.

If defence was the only issue, and it isn't because hitting counts, no manager would have taken Jeter over Ripkin.

b- The Orioles had the fewest strikeouts in 1984 (714) except for Minn. Almost 300 less than most teams, hence nore chances for the fielders.

bob c-I agree defensively that Ripken (check your spelling)is superior defensively, but the original post was a simple statement of opinion. That said, Ripken had an amazing career.

EC;

Ripkin certainly was a great defensive shortstop, far better than the two or three Gold gloves he won. On your point about Oriole pitchers low strikeout totals in 1984, 300 extra balls being put into play couldn't possibly result in 200 more plays for the SS. That simply isn't close to the number of extra opportunities one would expect a SS to get.

EC -

Once again, you can't use one piece of outlier data to try to prove a point. It just doesn't work.