Pete,

If you go to the Middle East, instead of figuring out how the Orioles can fill their needs for corner infielders, a starting pitcher and a bullpen without giving up anything of value except money, you can spend your time on the easier task of bringing peace to the region.

You'll need a new name too. Ali Bin Schmuckel?

Baltimore has been stigmatized since that snooty elitist Paul Tagliabue suggested that Baltimore should build a museam rather than pursue an NFL franchise after the Colts left town.

I find it ironic that one of the towns awarded an expansion NFL franchise that should have gone to Baltimore{ That sh**hole of a town Jacksonville Florida} can't support the team and the owner is looking to move it.

Posted by: Gil | October 8, 2009 10:55 AM

I can recall not seeing nearly as many raven pennants on cars & not as many fans in the seats @ M&T when the record was not so good. Don't throw stones @ J'ville for not pouring out for a bad team, it happens in most cities, here as well.

@Gil: That's not ironic, it's poetic. Baltimore *does* have a new museum though - Sports Legends at Camden Yards!

Brian... the ravens have sold out EVERY game since coming to B'more. There is no comparison b/w the two.

Jacksonville has had decnet teams in the past and they still can't sell out. When they do sell out it is because they covered over 10-15k seats.

Now of course, you will have empty seats at the end of a down year, but the difference is that they are SOLD. The Ravens have over 60000 season ticket holders.

absolutely no comparison, stop hating.

@Brian, The Ravens have never had to cover over of seats in the stadium to establish a new "sell-out" capacity and avoid TV blackouts like the Jags have... Jags Inaugural game had 72,363 in attendance. They've since reduced stadium capacity by covering up seats(!!!) to roughly 65,000. Prior to this season, that franchise has a lifetime record of 123W-112L.

The Jags are not a historically "bad" team, but a team that should have never been awarded to a city that can't/won't support it over time. Demand for tickets has gone steadily downward since 1998, when the original season tickets contracts began expiring. Preseason games were being blacked out on local television starting in 1999, even as the Jaguars achieved their historic best 14-2 record in the regular season.

TV Blackouts in Baltimore? NEVER, not a single game since that team arrived. Not at 4-12 (1996), not at 6-9-1 (1997), not at 5-11 (2007).

Sold out doesn't mean fannies in the seats... the Yawn is a good example of this. They announce attendance but the sheer numbers present don't match. Also, don't count all the Steeler fans @ those games. There must be 25K raven fans selling their seats during the down yrs huh?

LOL Brian - you mean to tell me Steelers fans were buying up tickets to 8 Ravens home games per season?? That logic seems a little twisted, but, uh, thanks to them, I suppose, for helping to vindicate Art Modell's bringing that franchise to Baltimore in the first place.

Sold out goes to financial viability of the franchise, not which team has the most fans in the stands thanks to scapling/secondary market resale/craigslist giveaways. The NFL thought that JAX would be a more viable city than Baltimore, and time has very firmly proven that judgment wrong.

Brian... you are fighting a losing argument here. Have you ever been to a Raven's game??? There are barely any empty seats, period. Ones that are are probably owned by the ticket brokers. We aren't quite Green Bay and the 3 empty seat championship game, but we are pretty good.

Yes, Steelers fans travel, that doesn't mean if they didnt show up that there would only be 36k people in the crowd. To think so is plain stupid. Also, from my experience going to games, i will say the amoutn of Stiller fans in the crowd has dropped significantly in recent years as the rivalry has intensified, especially since the Scott hit on Rotehlserlishbner game a few years back.

I would venture as much to say if the Ravens somehow added 8k upper deck tickets, they would sell those out too. 71k a game.

Go be miserable and comment on a Redskin blog

Brian,
Get you facts straight.

The Ravens, who are free under NFL rules to use any method they want. The Ravens sell out every game. Even when they were bas, they sold out. Never had a blackout. I just got tickets in Green bay and it was not hard. Got Pitts. tickets too at face value. The Resksins sell out every game and claim they have a waiting list, but they have thousands of club levelk seats available. These are not counted by the NFL as they are considered premiums seats.

The NFL rules for blackout are based on sold tickets. That is why teams like Jacksonville have blackouts.

In Jacksonville, before the 2005 season, mainly due to low attendance figures and looming blackouts, team officials installed a series of tarps to reduce the seating capacity for Jaguars games. The covers were placed to block out seven sections in the upper north endzone and four in each upper deck section, located on the corners of each. This puts 9,713 seats out of service, leaving the stadium with 67,164 seats per home game. Per NFL policy, the tarps have to stay on even during playoff games. Despite the changes, however, blackouts have still occurred, including two of their first three home games in 2007: against the Atlanta Falcons on September 16 and against the Houston Texans on October 14. It is anticipated that the entire 2009 home schedule will be blacked out due to continued slumping ticket sales.The city has not been able to attach a corporate sponsor on the stadium which means that Weaver is not getting millions from naming rights and a staggering total of about 17,000 of the team's 42,000 season ticket subscribers from 2008 decided for various reasons not to renew for the upcoming season. This is the third season that Weaver will not have a naming rights partner.

The 2011 CBA negotiations will determine whether the team moves.

Is it a ploy to coax an avid Raven's fan into buying you a ticket to - maybe - Far East this time?

People have better things to do with their time and money in FLA and California. People barely care about the Panthers in NC, let alone Jaxville, because they are into college down there. Same with the Falcons.

The NFL is going to be stupid again and put a team in LA. The Chargers moved from there, The Raiders moved, and the Rams. TV or not, people don't care in LA!!!

Hey Pete,

From the looks of the picture I could have sworn that you picked me up at the airport on a 95 degree day this summer with no air conditioning in your cab.

LOL Brian - you mean to tell me Steelers fans were buying up tickets to 8 Ravens home games per season?? That logic seems a little twisted, but, uh, thanks to them, I suppose, for helping to vindicate Art Modell's bringing that franchise to Baltimore in the first place.

Sold out goes to financial viability of the franchise, not which team has the most fans in the stands thanks to scapling/secondary market resale/craigslist giveaways. The NFL thought that JAX would be a more viable city than Baltimore, and time has very firmly proven that judgment wrong.

Posted by: Pete | October 8, 2009 1:00 PM

No, I was referring to the Steeler games here. Art Modell, Cleveland's hero....

LOL, I see I hit a nerve....

It's well established that Bal'mer is a football town. The great O's teams of the 60's & 70's could not get 20K per game to many games @ Memorial Stadium! Even the WS in '66 had empty seats!
The thinking of the NFL was off to say the least. However, it's my opinion that the decision of Jax before Bal'mer may have been some backhanded payback for the heist of the Browns from Cleveland. Cleveland had a dreadful stadium, but they still packed 80+ K into that stadium & had hardcore fans, you have to admit that too. Modell came here because he got such a sweet deal from the state of Md & he wanted more $$ than Cleveland could offer, period.

Yes Sham, I have been to the stadium. I also think it's a better stadium to see a game @ than the one the Skins play in. Far better.

EC, no argument on your pts, except I don't think it's any harder to get raven tix than it is Skin seats. I also still see far more raven flags, jerseys, etc when things are going well. When they aren't... not so much.

Pete, I'm getting a vasectomy in a few days. Is it possible for you to go out of town until it''s done?

http://sportspoof.com/

Baltimore jumped through all of the hoops set by the NFL and then some to get back in the NFL. The unfortunate truth was that Paul Taglibue had no intention of ever putting an NFL team back in Baltimore, and merely used Baltimore to leverage the bids from the other cities in contention, including JAX and Charlotte.

The little lying philanderer down the parkway, Jack Kent Crook was part of the conspiracy to keep the NFL out of Baltimore.

After 12 years of begging, bootlicking and ring kissing Harry Moag and the Stadium Authority got an NFL franchise the old fashioned way. We stole one. Incidentally four or five other NFL teams came out of the woodwork at the last minute to try to get into Baltimore ahead of Cleveland.

Cleveland fans can thank Paul Tagliabue and Jack Kent Crook for trying to screw the city of Baltimore. That's why they lost their team. If had not been Cleveland it would have been Houston or another NFL team coming in. The offer on the table from the State of Maryland was just too good to turn down.

And yes, Baltimore was justified for stealing an NFL team. Sometimes when you get screwed, you get even. And we did and we did.

Blaming JKC for Bal'mer not getting an NFL team is absurd. He had sellouts & a long waiting list. His issue was never fans or geography. Few with the Skins cared one way or the other from what I have read & heard. You have him confused with Angelos. Be thankful you don't have to watch the ravens & any of their shows on a Redskin owned cable channel.

JKC was adamant about Baltimore not getting a team. He was claiming territorial rights over Baltimore.

If you look back at historical MLB attendance figures, no one really drew well back in the 60-70's.
The Yankees averaged in the teens from '55 to '75... same for the Sox from '46-'66.

Anonymous: It's a good thing you're not using your real name, because you couldn't be more wrong, misinformed or stupid. It's common knowledge that Cooke didn't want a franchise in Baltimore. EVEYRBODY knows this except you. Where were you during this time? Angelos didn't want baseball in DC, he didn't want football in Baltimore. Those are the facts. Ask any Redskins fan or writer who covered the team. Ask anyone with a pulse.

Pete-

Ever do any drumming for the Scorpions in the mid-80s ??

..............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Thanks for remembering.

Not to be a "nitpicker", but MoronDetector either A.) Does not have Spellcheck or B.) didn't attend parochial school.
It's that old damned adage about people in glass houses...

So a misspelled word ruins the point I was making? Or, Patrick, are you just a douche? Hope I spelled that correctly.

Just wondering if you saw that the Dodgers did not selll out either game. In fact, the last section in the upper deck was totally empty.

Talk about a bandwagon town. I'd love to see what the LAjers attendance would be if they were not playoff team.

..............................................................................................
Pete's reply: I'm pretty sure the Dodgers have averaged more than 3 million fans for about 30 years.

Shmuck-
you are being watched now

George Sherrill is doing a fantastic job for the Dodgers. He just picked up the win in game two against St. Louis. This was one of the worst trades the Orioles have made in the past five years.

the worst trade charles? i mean we got a third base prospect that can rake the ball. uehara can close. good for sherrill though.

Pete, I know you've said before that you cannot read every post, but man, some of the things I'm reading here are starting to remind me of the idiotic things people say to each other on msn or yahoo. And I don't mean people's opinions, rather the derogatory things they are saying to each other.

..............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Well, I try not to censor the blog, unless there's something truly profane or libelous.

Joe,

It was a risk-reward trade that MacPhail made, easy to take risk when you are rock bottom. Not the worst in five years (that would be the Maine and Juio for Benson deal), but you go out and get a lefty reliever that has had the success Sherrill has had. the Orioles will spend more, much more than George would have for 2010. No one knows how Bell will do, he is a prospect and that is all he is now. He has not proven he can field at third yet, yes I know he won a small time award for fielding, but really his fielding has not been good in his career, and certainly nothing to talk about in Bowie. If he pans out great, but this is not a good deal for the Orioles, it is what it is a deal. Bell is a switch hitter that does nothing against left handed pitchers. Yes he displays minor league power, but that is what it is. Hope he can come around on his defense, but that is hard to teach. Maybe Steve Johnson will become a lights out reliever and then it would all be a wash.

Koji may never be effective and I do not think the closers role will go to him with an elbow problem that no one knows if he can pitch again. Just too many unknowns.

JKC was adamant about Baltimore not getting a team. He was claiming territorial rights over Baltimore.

If you look back at historical MLB attendance figures, no one really drew well back in the 60-70's.
The Yankees averaged in the teens from '55 to '75... same for the Sox from '46-'66.

Posted by: SHAMROCK | October 8, 2009 4:53 PM

------------------

Sham I did have hopes for you as a debate partner here but both of these comments killed any chance of it. JKC didn't have any concerns about Bal'mer. Most folks in the DC area don't care one way or the other about Bal'mer , it's Bal'mereans that fret over this & that about DC teams & such. Just as most Skins fans don't care either way about the ravens nor hate them, raven fans seems hate on the Skins for no apparent reason other than inherent insecurities & some form of petty jealousy...
As for the attendance excuse .... that laughable. Bal'mer had one of the best teams in baseball during that time & could barely get 10-15 K to any game. There's no excuse for that, none other than , back to my main pt there, football ruled here.

Hi Brian,

At least our Football team isn't suing it's fans.

By the way, our Baseball team outdrew yours this year by 90,000 fans. Your Baseball Team's attendance fell by 500,000 over 2008, ours fell by 43,000.

So, how long do you think it will be until the 3rd Major League Baseball Team moves out of D.C. for lack of fan support?

Baltimore hasn't lost one yet.

Hey Gil,

Not much to brag about there. The NL counts people that walk through the gate, the AL counts actual ticket sales. Fact is both are not doing well, the part that kills me about the Nationals is they have a brand new stadium and they have all those open seats. The Orioles did not have a problem with seats for 9 years after Camden Yards was built.

And actually we did lose a franchise, they are now the Yankees!

Gil Gil Gil, you ignorant sl.. one of my fav SNL lines! Is THAT the best retort you have? I feel I am being objective here, but you feel the need to dig up irrelevant BS?
I could not agree more, what the Hobbit is doing to some fans in tough financial spots is terrible. Trust me , I am NOT a fan of the Hobbit. For Christ's sake, he makes PA look like a good owner! You want to delve into the abyss of each team? Should we go into all the illegitimate Dads on your team & all the arrest records of various stars? How a good WR had to be traded a few years ago, when the ravens had none, bec/ a certain hero LB had , shall we say, had inappropriate relations with that WRs GF & there was unneeded tension in the locker room? Should we start all that tawdriness?
My baseball team? Ummmm, I'm an O's fan, always have been, always will be. My heroes as a kid were Brooks & Unitas. However, I was happy for the poor devils in NOVA that the Nats arrived. Now they didn't have to travel through 2 cities rush hours to see bad baseball games. Now they could travel far less to see one. I was a Colts fan too, but I digress... better stop assuming things if you really want to try & annoy, that helps a lot in your goal... LOL

Brian,

Also back in the old days, I mean thirty to fifty years ago, every team was lucky to get 1 million fans attend, the Orioles did that. The Senators one year drew exactly one half the attendance of the Orioles and you could get in for .50 cents, that was 1966, kind of crazy but that is how things were. Now I am amazed that nearly 2 million come out to watch two last place teams. Simply amazing!

Hi Brian,

That certainly was the thoughtful, pragmatic, cognitive, professional and unemotional response that I expected from you.

Have a nice day.

Hi CB,

Since you brought it up I am going to research it to see if any ancestors of Peter Angelos owned the Baltimore Orioles 106 years ago, and experienced 12 losing seasons in a row, thus alienating the fans, driving down attendance and precipitating the move to New York.

Who knows. I know Clark Griffith did take over the team as a player/manager, when they were in New York as the Highlanders.

CB,

Speaking of Clark Griffith, I grew up in Laurel and my Dad used to take me to see the Senators at old Griffith Stadium. Did you ever go there? It was like a reverse mirror image of Fenway Park, with the green monster in right field, and left and left center were really deep.

Finally, we get an explanation about the shirts in the middle east photos! About time.

No just heard stories about it from my father, who spent his springs and summers here while I was sweating in Texas. I was a little young then for going to ball games. He told me about it several times, being down on GA Ave (7th Street) and then it became a parking lot. He hated the stadium being torn down. Just hope that Fenway and Wrgley stay up a while longer. After that the oldest historic park would be a modern era stadium. When that day comes it will be a shame.

So Pete, what you really did was wear one of your shirts on your head to fit in better?

Great thinking! Nobel Peace Prize for you

"This was one of the worst trades the Orioles have made in the past five years."

That made me laugh.

In that span, before MacPhail took over, 90% of the trades the O's made were inconsequential at best. The only truly bad trades in the bunch were the Sosa trade and the Benson trade. And those trades were only proven to be bad a few years after the fact.

Come on people. Let's wait to see what kind of impact Bell and Johnson make before we resort to making ourselves look ridiculous.

Oh, and let's not forget that Sherrill went from being a closer in the AL East to an 8th inning guy in the NL West.

Sherrill's been amazing since the trade, but you can't forget to look at who he's facing. Instead of having to face AL East opponents and big offenses in Anaheim and Texas, he got to toss 14 games in a row against the Pittsburgh, DC, San Francisco, San Diego and Arizona.

In fact, in Sherrill's 30 games in the NL, he faced a winning team (ATL, CHI, COL, SF) only half the time. And the Cubs and Giants offenses were ranked 11th and 12th in the NL, right above the D-Backs, Pirates and Padres.

B,

That is what good teams do. Get stronger. They already had relievers, but they made themselves the most dominate bullpen in the NL. They had a closer already a guy that throws 100 MPH, and is successful. So the Dodgers have been lights out in games they are ahead going into the 8th inning.

B, Give me a break the teams they played are all major league teams, and he has done a near perfect job. Are you trying to say he is not credible because he is in the NL? How about putting an asterick next to the Yankees record this year because they were luck enough to play the Orioles so many times. Sherrills ERA was 2.40 playing against the East this year. Not to bad, look it up.

Also you better recheck the Benson trade, in 2006 when the trade was made, Benson went 11-12 while Maine was brought up and went 6-5 and won in the NLCS. The next year Maine was 15-10 and Benson did not pitch. So I think the impact was pretty quick. Forgot to add that the Mets turned around and traded Julio to Arizona for El Duque, and that paid out big for the Mets in 2006. At least we had Mrs Benson for a year. The Sosa deal we really did not lose a lot, none of the three will be able to brag about much when their careers are over, accept it will be fun for them to say we were once traded for Sammy Sosa.

brian... JKC wanted to build a stadium in laurel. Tagliaboo gave lame jaxville the team to appease JKC.

you are arguing a different point, I have said nothing about the fans, Im talking about JKC.

nobody drew squat across baseball until everyone started building bastardized-Oriole Park ADHD funland playground stadiums stadiums that detract from the game. now if you dont draw 3 million you are a massive failure.

Pete's reply: I'm pretty sure the Dodgers have averaged more than 3 million fans for about 30 years.

My Laker comment was probaly more appropriate for the metality of the LA.

The Dodgers are well supported , but it helps when you have 12M+ residents, 9 WS appearances, 5 WS, great ownership and Vin Scully.

I was just surprised to see empty seats.