fire trembley

Peter
Well of course Peter Angelos wants fans thinking about economic disparity and that the Orioles are poor and don’t make money like other teams. It not only hides his incompetence but allows him to pocket tons of that MASN money.

The Orioles cant even beat other small market teams buddy!

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Pete's reply: I'd like to think you're right, but I don't know that there are "tons" of MASN money.

AHHHHH!!!!! I DON'T KNOW WHY I'M SHOUTING!!!

lighten up people... not everything is a conspiracy

That double play by the Rangers was pretty epic..

LIFTOFF!!!

SHAMROCK

Your absolutely right the Orioles are totally outright about their scams.

Pete,

Peter Angelos was content with the status quo{perennial losing} until the Expos moved to Washington and threatened his monopoly on owning the only losing MLB team in the area.

What jacked up PA even more was the spector that the Nationals might even try to win and force him to spend money in order to put a competitive product on the field. Make no mistake about it, Angelos would not even be going through the Macphail rebuilding charade were it not for the team just south down the Parkway.

Now PA is relieved that the Nationals appear to be even more clueless than his organization and Pete and his boys have entered into a wink wink arrangemnt with the Nationals that both teams should stink and neither should rock the boat by trying to win.

MASN will continue to broadcast two local hapless teams getting their brains beaten in[just like tonight} as long as PA can get away with it.

That's my story and I am sticking to it.

MASN isn't paying off quite as well as expected... If there was tons of activity at MASN, it wouldn't be littered with the same Orioles and other 4 commercials (Amstel, Verizon, Jack Daniels and Eva Longoria Heineken "Pleassh") over and over again.

Plus, how would Emperor Angelos make any money thru his TV next work featuring 2 lousy teams? He can't make a lot of money on the network, keep it, not improve the team, and expect advertising revenue to come in for a channel nobody watches because the team stinks. Think about it.

I can't wait until the team gets good and people complain they can't quite make it to the playoffs or make it to the World Series. Its never enough.

Like I have said before, Angelos has done whatever this town has wanted. What he needs to do is build a time travelling Delorean to go back in time to change things appease second guessing complainers.

Gil... why in God's name would Angelos be content with losing??? He won't make any money on a loser! This isn't the NFL where every team gets a cut of the lucrative TV contract.

He has done whatever this town wanted:

Spent in the 90's, O's NEVER spent money before that period... got us to the ALCS twice 96-97...

Team got old quick, pitching/bullpen stinks, dipped below .500, fans wanted to dump players to retool 98-99...

Team muddles through 1st rebuilding, prospects don't amount to much '00-03.

Enough of this rebuilding and Larry Bigbie/Luis Matos crap, get some FA's!!! (Tejada, Lopez, Palmeiro) Doesn't work, pitching still sucks... '04-07

Ok... get rid of Mazzilli and Perlozzo (now Trembley, of course), blow the team up and lets finally rebuild right from the bottom up. '07-now

This is taking too long, Angelos sucks, Trembley Sucks, McPhail sucks, my life sucks... I am going to really punish myself and become a soccer fan.

The team never rebuilt right, had crappy GM's and even crappier drafts. Gillick did well in the '90's because he spent a zillion dollars. Team ignored the farm system for years and bet all their chips on a few prospects that simply did not pan out.

If Angelos got in the way of a few things, so be it. Its his team, if he didn't want to give up BRob for Francouer and Giles, god bless him. He's spent money when the fans asked, and rebuilt when they asked. It just hasn't panned out.

Shamrock,

There used to be another shill like you who defended this hapless organization on line nightly, something "Moon" I can't really remember, who must have been the nephew of the late Syd Thrift.

If Angelos had done"everything we wanted" he would never have fired Pat Gillick who acquired the free agents that helped the team make the playoffs in 1996 and 1997.

That dumb ass move is the proximite cause of all that has followed.

Instead, Angelos himself ran the team himself straight into the ground until Macpahil was hired ostensibly to "rebuild" what Angelos destroyed.

Am I bitter? You bet your ass I am. I watched the Orioles build a team under Paul Richards. I watched them build a dynasty under Earl Weaver.

I watched them go down the drain under the direct control of Peter Angelos.

And I repeat, if it had not been for the Expos moving to DC Angelos would not have made one single move to improve the franchise.

This team sux...Tillman is WAY over-rated & our pen has the talent of a HS jv team. Thanks for the memories Andy...one classic one after another.
I wonder how Georgie is doing in LA? And in return for one of the best closers we get the freakin cookie monster...a guy so fat he makes Fielder look like A.Jones. And no, he can't hit like him! Sorry Andy...it's NOT working...we suk now more than we did when you rolled into town.

Hey Scamrock I think you just got served! LOL

Hey Gil,

History tends to disagree since Gillick was never fired. His contract ended and he left on his own. Uh oh, what to do with all your misguided blame on that one?

I have to agree too that MASN makes no real worthwile money. If no one is going to games, then I can't see how the broadcasts are some hidden cash cow either. He'd make more money scamming the YES network for fractions of every penny they make like in Superman III (or Office Space).

I can appreiate that you've watched success in Baltimore in the past. To think an owner wants to lose is just, well there's no polite word for it. Even Al Davis wants to win, he just can't help that he doesn't know how. Angelos didn't know how to win either and he thought he did. That sucks for us, but he's backed off from what I can tell. Now there is a new GM and some talent in the system.

Oh and yes, Earl Weaver was great. I mean he was coaching a team where Jim Palmer was 3rd on the team in wins and Mike Cuellar went from a 32 year old scrub (8-11 in '68 with Houston) to an ace somehow, but sure let's give Earl ALL the credit there. In '69 all he had to do just about was put his uniform on to go .500 with the talent he was blessed with.

To say Earl made that team is like saying Phil Jackson could make any NBA team a winner next year. Phil would quit just like Earl did when he came back if he had to coach the Wizards right now because PLAYERS make the manager.

As for the whole thing with the Nationals, as an Orioles fan you should have been supporting Angelos in keeping the Nats away. Not laughing at how MLB was sticking it to him. Where is payroll supposed to come from when half your audience just went on the Metro for a Nats game? Half your audience that was already fractions of the audience of your major competitors. Joke's on you every time the Nats win genius.

I can't resist one more before bed.

jack,

Sherrill wasn't perfect this year as a closer either. So at best we're talking about a 1-2 game difference. Only now we have 2 prospects who could either play here or be packaged to get us one of the big pieces we need.

Oh and Tillman is what, 21 and you're giving up on him? How many 21 year old Cy Young winners have there been lately man? I mean come on.

I have been and still am a supporter of the Andy MacPhail rebuilding plan that has been in place for the last 2 seasons, and I am happy with its progress, despite the current W-L of the O's. I do believe strides have been made this year that will help the O's progress over the next few years. I have also been a fan of Trembley. However, I believe that some moves this offseason are necessary, rather than sitting idly puting all of our team's hopes in the progression that our young arms make. I think after sub-.500 season #12 in a row, there are the pieces in place to make a run, if we are able to supplement these pieces with legitimate, proven pieces that will make the job easier for the young guys. The O's defiencies are obvious: corner IF, front-line starting pitcher, impact back-end reliever.

Although the free-agent class this year is thin, it still has some impact players available who could make some sense for the O's. Also, with the deep resources the O's have in the Minors, it may be possible to swing a trade or two for premier players/pitchers without having to give up our biggest pieces (Matusz, Tillman, Reimold, etc.).

I do believe that perhaps a managerial change is needed at this point, and from my point of view it is nothing against Trembley, who I believe just got his chance at the wrong time. I think that the team just needs a change at the top to create a new attitude.

I am painfully aware that the Orioles have missed out on some marquee free agents in recent years because it has not looked like the team was remotely near contention in the AL east, and I am counting on more of the same this offseason, unless we are able to show a commitment in other ways. A new manager might be a start, and perhaps swinging a trade that addresses a hole. Any big trade would require shipping away some names that we have been looking at in depth over the last few years, but I think we may have some pieces that we would be able/willing to move.

A trade that may make some sense, and of course this is obvious to most O's fans, but just to put it out there, would be to acquire San Diego 1B Adrian Gonzalez. We could ship out 1 or 2 of our young arms that aren't named Matusz, Tillman or Bergesen, such as Troy Patton, Jake Arrieta and/or recently named Carolina League Pitcher of the Year, Zach Britton along with a piece such as Brandon Snyder or Brandon Waring, who also just received Carolina League honors, and perhaps a low-level prospect as well. Now this may or may not get a deal done, but if it were to happen, you acquire a 27 year-old power hitting, gold-glove winning first baseman to hit cleanup behind roberts-jones-markakis. An invaluable addition to the lineup indeed. This does not even take into account the number inflation Gonzalez would see playing in Camden Yards versus Petco Park.

An acquisition of this caliber has the potential to change perceptions

Another move the Orioles could look to make, and I am somewhat surprised that no one has mentioned it in anything I have read thus far would be replacing Melvin Mora at 3B with a free agent signing such as Adrian Beltre of the Seattle Mariners. While Beltre may never replicate the 48-homer season he had with the Dodgers that earned him a huge 4-year deal with the Mariners, he has managed to put up respectable power/run-production numbers in a huge Safeco Field, all the while playing Gold-glove defense as well. Not to mention that Beltre has missed time this season due to some freak injuries, and therefore would not warrant another huge deal. Other than this year however, Beltre has been pretty healthy throughout his career.

A scorecard that goes up in the clubhouse each and every day that reads: Roberts, Jones, Markakis, Gonzalez, Beltre, Reimold, Weiters, Scott, Izturis, may be able to entice some free agent pitchers to come in as well. Not only would the lineup be much improved, but just look at it from a defensive standpoint; the weakest link may be Reimold, and he is in no way a weak fielder. Every position on the field would be well-above average defensively.

Of course I realize that this may be (probably is) a pipe dream, but I do believe that the O's have the resources to make something like this possible, not to mention that with all of the money coming off the books this offseason, the money to sign Gonzalez long-term would be there.

In terms of the pitching staff, I believe the arms are in place minus an ace, and maybe another solid veteran. I truly think that what we have otherwise can get the job done with a little restructuring. Matusz, Tillman and Bergesen are going to be in the rotation - I feel like at this point, that much is almost written in stone. If we could add a true ace to make everything easier then I feel as though everything else might fall into place. I believe Guthrie is a capable Major League pitcher, just not an ace. And perhaps he would do well with less responsibility further down in the rotation. The pool of Free agent ace pitchers is pretty weak this year, and the name that keeps getting tossed around is John Lackey. He would be a good fit, but he may not be interested. Another person that could fall into free agency if his option is not picked up is Brandon Webb, who will be coming off an injury, so it might be a risk. Other names out there that could be options: Joel Pineiro, Jarrod Washburn, Jason Marquis just to name a few. Any one of those guys might fit well, especially with Lackey/Webb already having experienced ace responsibilities.

The bullpen will need some reworking, but I believe some good pieces are already within the organization. Hendrickson and Uehara could be long relief guys, I like Johnson, Mickolio and I feel like Ray may be there, but I also feel like David Hernandez could fit very nicely in the back of the bullpen. Hendrickson might be able to scoot in as a lefty specialist, but who knows. Mickolio, Johnson and Hernandez all have the stuff the could turn into a decent closer.

Thats's my (long) take. Let me know what you think.

I understand building up your farm system, but isn't one of the benefits of a deep farm system that you can move pieces around to fill out your team the best way possible - not just keep them all while some make it and some do not? I know I'm just tired of the losing, but there are some smart moves that can be made in my mind that would improve the team immensely without giving up on what MacPhail has been trying to put together, rather just adding to it.

Anyone who thinks Angelos isn't making money on a year to year basis is foolish.

The team is worth much, much more today than when Angelos bought it, and there is relatively low overhead attached.

How much money MASN is making compared to what it could be making is another example of Angelos mismanagement.

Angelos is a one-trick pony--a stubborn mule who applies leverage at every opportunity. That's why he scored well against tobacco and asbestos. That's why he sucks at business and has no partners at his law firm.

That's why his victories with the Orioles are no lock-out to keep Ripken streak alive, Ponson's contract clause, Belle's insurance clause, and MLB's conflict of interest in promising the Orioles territorial rights (originally with EBW) and want in to move the Expos (which MLB then owned) to Washington resulting in MASN.

Most posts above mine and in the past--including mine--get caught up in the game of what the Orioles should do to go from losing 82-plus games every stinking year to winning 82-plus games every stinking year with the assumption the Orioles as an organization are trying to win.

When my car has trouble getting me from Point A to Point B in an acceptable, efficient manner, I start looking for other shops to fix it or I get another car. If the Orioles are a metaphor for a car, Angelos doesn't care about getting to Point B and doesn't care if the rattling bucket of bolts pollutes the area while trying.

Shamrock,

Just got up to read your final post from last night which confirms you are a shill for this pathetic franchise run aground by peter Angelos and his family of Ambulance chasers. You are reacting just like Pete the Greek did when the Expos threatened to move here.

What's it like to be a member of that family? Rather than toys they probaly give the kids little neck braces to play with.

James C, Not giving up on Tillman, just saying Andy's hype machine was full throttle on this one. He is not as good as we have all been lead to believe-plain & simple. We all read he has a lights out fastball(yet to see it) & obviously, opposing hitters are. Also read he's got a knee buckling breaking ball...is that the one that's been landing in the bullpen? Yes, he's only 21 & he may prove to be one of our best in time but for right now after what we've all been told & read...he's not nearly as polished as advertised.
As for Georgie, I never intended to mean he was worth all that many wins, but he would have prevented some ugly losses & more importantly, McPhail got NOTHING as in NOTHING in return for him except a blob that hits some occasional long homeruns off minor league pitching.
And then there is the kid we got for Huff...read the Sun article from earlier this week & tell me if Andy's spin machine isn't going full speed on this. See, talk is cheap, I want to see results and the bottom line just isn't getting with this organization.
The orioles can be summed up like this...in the Flanny/Beatty years it was Tim Lincicum or Billy Rowell. Guess who we picked? Where are the Giants? Where are we? This is only 1 pick but it is systemic of this organization in pick after pick...they just rarely work out & virtually all other teams have moved lightyears beyond us in developing REAL not PERCEIVED talent.
Hope I'm wrong but, Hobgood will more than likely be MePhail's Rowell. And the beat goes on.

Gil...

So, because I don't sit in my basement stewing over an Orioles losing season, one that is ending up just where it was projected, I'm a shill?

I completely despise the work Angelos does outside the Orioles. My wife was a workers comp adjuster and dealt with his liked. Asbestos, Tobacco, other garbage lawsuits who's merits have been loosely proven. Its all crap, but it bought him a baseball team.

Gillick did nothing more for this team than buy a bunch of free agents that got old after 2 years. All of his moved were superficial at best. While he was buying players (to the approval of the fickle fans) he was ignoring everything else. Did the same thing in Toronto, Seattle, and lucked out that his core was already in place in Philly.

You guys at like Angelos sits in his "Devils Advocate" styled office and plots the destruction of the team.

And if Angelos wanted to lose so bad, why did he sign Lopez, Tejada, and Raffy in 2003, before the Expos moved? He did it because he bowed to the fans to spend money that he hadn't over the past few years.

Again, MASN is not lighting the world on fire

Shamrock,

I own a mid size company in Timonium and commute to Harrisburg Daily. I am 63 years old and have been a corporate Oriole season ticket holder for 25 years. Born and raised in Baltimore I know Baltimore sports and it's history.

The period that the franchise was lost was after Gillick was fired, [when they don't renew your contract that's what it is called} and the Frank Wren fiasco, up until Macphail, there was a void during which Angelos made the decisions.

He had his lap dog Syd Thrift who was" the Director of baseball operations" but everyone knew who was making the calls and they all turned out disastrous.

The team was languishing until the threat of a National League team in his backyard got Angelos fired up. He knew he may be forced to spend real money now that there may be competetion for the marketplace. It was plainly obvious by his comments and actions.

Look, I want to see the Orioles win again. I have supported the rebuilding plan, so far I think Macphail is doing all the right things. But there are no guarantees when and if it will work and I want to see a championship flag fly over Camden yarsd again before I die. We lost ten years of opportunity to improve the team while Angelos ran it.

That's why I think the Orioles need to modify their thinking and go to a hybrid rebuilding plan. With now one of the lowest payrolls in baseball, Macphail should attempt to start bringing in proven major league talent to augment the young prospects, and accelerate the long slog towards winning baseball in Baltimore again.

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Pete's reply: Then you'll like my column for Sunday.

jack,

It wasn't just people in the Orioles who said Tillman had the tools. They aren't translating to the majors yet. He hasn't had an off-season to prepare for the majors either. I'm just reserving judgement and not basing it on what was basically an emergency call-up.

I still think Sherrill only saves us one to two games. Does that help me in my bet with Bob a little, sure, but wouldn't exactly stem the swoon I think. As for Josh Bell...again, look to the off-season and see if he drops weight. The truth is still that no one outside of Baltimore thinks Sherrill is a legit closer. We got lefty specialist prospects in return because that's all he is. 30 of 31 scouts told their boss basically that he wasn't worth anything else.

I'm with you on the draft picks, there have been some busts. We signed just about all of our tops picks this year though and Arrieta is still in the chute too. I hope Givens was worth the hassle, but that kid has my support. When he went to the game in Tampa he told Amber he went out and bought his own O's hat once the contract was done and she was joking that they probably would have sent him all he wanted. I just thought it was cool. Just hope he can hit.

I will say though, the Giants are still on the outside looking in too.

Gil,

I love the kind of fan you are. Let me completely pay respect to that. I think we're all on the same boat overall. I completely agree on the last thing you said too about spending some money. Not stupid money (i.e. $60 mil for Figgins or something), but someone who can push 40 HR's needs to be in a Baltimore uniform soon again.

I still think there is a difference between "fired" and "you want how much GD money to come back here?" Flanny and Beattie really fudged this thing up though. All the money they sank into guys like Gibbons and the 3 relievers, could have all gone to one or two marquee guys.

McPhail earned about 2 years leadway from me because he was inheriting a disaster. Top to bottom, Baltimore to Delmarva and no pressence in the Asian or Dominican markets either. I wish this year didn't suck this bad, but there hasn't been young pitching like this around here in a long time and the outfield has really turned into a competition as opposed to a recycling center.

Sarfate, Patton, Koji, Ray and even (please don't throw rocks at me) Rich Hill were all battling injuries this year. We don't truly know what we have in those guys. Not that they are all going to live up to their potential in 2010 either, but if we get one solid reliever and one starter out of that group....that's all just a bonus basically.

I still disagree on the business side since winning makes so much more money than losing cheaply. Incompetence, sure...settling to hover in the black as some conspiracy theory, especially after seeing the money you can make from seasons like 96 and 97, I find hard to believe. There was just no instincts on how to run the franchise effectively anywhere when Gillick left. Steinbrenner was the same way for a long time too.

Shamrock,

I agree about the Gillick wake. His Wikipedia is hilarious: "Like the Blue Jays and Orioles, the Mariners have not made the playoffs since his departure as GM." He strip mines a franchise and moves on. Good thing he's still an advisor for the Phillies or they're doomed.

The conventional wisdom is that Gillick was fired but I'm sure the Angelos family spun it otherwise. Look, my judgement may be jaded becuase I have spent 40 years in the banking and financial services industry and I have had the unfortunate experience of having to negotiate with the the Angelos family a couple of times and I hated every minute of it. They can't make decisions, they don't return phone calls, they sit on proposals and then demand minutia changes, so, in that respect I admit I am not objective when I discuss them.

They are terrific Lawyers but should not own a baseball team, in my opinion,{but} they own ours, and nothing is going to change that any time soon.

Hopefully the ten wasted years when Angelos called all of the shots taught Peter a lesson.

We shall see. I am not yet convinced that he will let Andy Macphail do what needs to be done for the team to win, but as I said, I admit it is hard for me to be completely objective when discussing them.

Shamrock,

On more thing about Peter Angelos, he has also become infamous outside of Baltimore. If you travel extensively you know that people around the country mostly say the problem with the Orioles is the owner.

Sports Illustrated rated him the worst owner in Major League Baseball for 2009, and they cite his long history of meddling going back to Pat Gillick and Davey Johnson's separation from the team. {I won't say they were fired So we can get by that}

He now has an opportunity to do the right things and may eventually redeem his reputation. I hope so, because as fans we all want to see a winning team.

James C,

"I still disagree on the business side since winning makes so much more money than losing cheaply. Incompetence, sure...settling to hover in the black as some conspiracy theory, especially after seeing the money you can make from seasons like 96 and 97, I find hard to believe. There was just no instincts on how to run the franchise effectively anywhere when Gillick left. Steinbrenner was the same way for a long time too."

You are right that winning makes more money than losing cheaply. But losing cheaply requires less institutional capability. It is much easier to profit by not spending on competitive players. Angelos knows how to lose cheaply, and profit thereby. According to Forbes, the Orioles have made more money in this century than the Yankees. Not because of top line revenue, but because of lower player salaries.

MacPhail may have improved the organization, but he has also dumped salary, and has failed to acquire first caliber talent in the free agent market. His pitching staff to start the season was so poor that announcing it was tantamount to throwing the season.

You'll know that Angelos is serious about competing when he starts spending at least 140% of the average (mean) of the payrolls of the rest of the league. He was doing that when the O's were competitive.

This would involve an investment at first. But fans would return and revenues rise as the team's performance began to compel attention.

It's not just the salary cap. It's called having talent, using resources wisely and generating revenue. Robinson Cano, Derek Jeter, Jorge Posada, Mariano Rivera, Andy Petitte, Phil Hughes,Melky Carbrera, Joba Chamberlin all HOME GROWN. The Orioles revenue stream has been their undoing and the that is Peter Angelos' fault. They can't generate the same money that Boston And NY can, but John Henry increased revenue in Boston by 30% after he took over and used ex-Oriole employees like Larry Luchino and Charles Steinberg to make it happen. We have John (I'll be in Saratoga) Angelos in leadership.

Gil,

I can only imagine what he's like to deal with in the legal arena and I agree that you can't run a franchise that way. I think he finally got it after he got too much of what he wished for in team "yes sir."

I think transaction wise Angelos has let just about anything happen. I too will be watching to see what kind of money gets spent this year. Spending is a double-edged sword though. I mean he approved the cash dump to Walker/Baez/Bradford that is the one time I'd have wanted him to step in.

Dequincey,

You're looking at losing 90 games, why pay millions extra to do it?

You're also restocking a farm system that just saw almost a whole crop of players go bust together (Olsen, Penn, Loewen, etc).

In Huff's case you can get him back cheaper next year if you want and I've said my think on Sherrill already. Plus, you now have a lot more trade chips for the offseason as opposed to "this guy just finished a year of regression, I'll give you him and a prospect for your All-Star."

James C,

It is an immense concession to agree that you'll lose 90 games. I don't advocate paying millions extra to do that.

I advocate investing what it takes to make the club a winner. The only objective when the season starts should be to win.

This also implies dumping the losers like Trembley, who talks about respecting the game, but personifies "Managing for Dummies," by bungling in-game decision-making and failing to require that his players play the game the properly. My son's Little League team makes fewer boneheaded mistakes on the bases than the Orioles.

There is no reason to tolerate this, especially as a really smart, effective manager is not that much more expensive than a chump like Trembley.

Getting a good manager who does not cultivate a losing attitude among the players is not like signing a corner infielder who can bang out 50 HRs.

The fact that the Orioles don't shows that the whole "re-building" fuss is not about making the team better. It is about making it cheaper. Angelos doesn't need to hire a competent manager because he has bo intention of fielding a team that would employ a good manager's abilities,

The Orioles are all about rationalizing failure, MacPhail has succeeded handsomely at that. I just hope that other fans will lose patience with the charade, as I have.

Gil... aout the outside baltimore Angelos thing, what do you think people think of Ray Lewis outside Baltimore? They think he is a murderer. Is he? Hell no. Do you think Yankee fans think different;y of Steinbrenner than outsiders? of course.

Featured comment of the day:
Shamrock,

I agree about the Gillick wake. His Wikipedia is hilarious: "Like the Blue Jays and Orioles, the Mariners have not made the playoffs since his departure as GM." He strip mines a franchise and moves on. Good thing he's still an advisor for the Phillies or they're doomed.
Posted by: James

The regular fans bloggin on thissite could do the same work for cheaper than Gillick. Any idiot can buy and sell players... WS by Gillick- 3. WS by McPhail- 2 (and his teams weren't all that.)