Pete,
I know you've been saying we need a power hitting corner infielder and I totally agree...
I know you also think we need a good veteran starter, but
could that guy be Guthrie? Could it be that he is growing into and becoming what we need?

Perhaps the pressure of being a number 1 is something he is getting comfortable with

You are around the club alot...even though he has struggled alot do you get the sense that he is leader type? or even if you knew he would perform like he has the last two weeks and the previous 2 years would you still think we need another veteran?

Go Os!!!!

Playoffs 2010!!!!

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Pete's reply: Yes, I think he can, but I also think he could start out the same way he did this year, so you need somebody else to improve your chances of having a real good rotation. If you've got five solid starters, you've always got a chance. I don't think you should assume three of the young guys will win 14 or 15 games next year. It's really true that you can never have enough good pitching.

If Guthrie keeps pitching this way, the offseason will be very interesting. I still want lackey to be our number one and then have matucz, tillman, bergenson, and guthrie starting with hernandez and berken pusing for playing time. We also have erbe, arrieta, and steve johnson in the minors. With all these young pieces, a trade isn't out of the question either.

If Guthrie keeps pitching this way, the offseason will be very interesting. I still want lackey to be our number one and then have matucz, tillman, bergenson, and guthrie starting with hernandez and berken pusing for playing time. We also have erbe, arrieta, and steve johnson in the minors. With all these young pieces, a trade isn't out of the question either.

BILL FREDERICK:

2010: A winning season

2011: Playoffs.

hey, pete...
i agree that it would be in the club's best interest to find a rbi guy that plays a corner but, please, no more aged veterans. and , for god's sake, no..veteran..pitchers!
let the young guys establish themselves. trembley and kranitz will take care of them.
after 22 years of minor league managing i'm sure that trembley has seen players come back from the majors with their confidence broken and i'm sure that he will do everything that he can to see that that doesn't happen to this talented group.
if the orioles find a more consistent hitting first baseman, ok, but i'm rooting for justin turner to take over at third. yeah, he's a slappy but i understand that he plays intensely. i wonder if he can hit in the 2 slot ? eventually.
don't put down that kool-aid ! it's coming!

Hi Peter,

I really do believe they will have to hit the free agent market. I am thinking that the Padres will ask a great deal for Gonzalez, I am sure Matusz or Tillman and Hernandez or Erbie and a few minor league bats. I guess you can throw them a bone in the first month after the season ends, so you are not sitting in the month of January with nothing still. Also Gonzalez may be here for two years only, and whatever deal you make you have to see about contracts and extensions.

What else would you see them go after?

PETER - COUPLE OF COMMENTS - ABOUT THREE WEEKS AGO A WRITER SURMISED THAT GUTHRIE MIGHT BE TELEGRAPHING HIS PITCHES - SINCE THEN HE HAS DONE BETTER - DID KRANITZ SEE THIS OR DID IT TAKE A WRITER TO POINT THIS OUT - I HAVE BEEN WONDERING ABOUT THE SUCCESS OF OUR PITCHING - WHICH WAS SUPPOSE TO REALLY IMPROVE WITH KRANNIE - WHILE WE HAVE SEEN IMPROVEMENT - IT APPEARS THAT KRANNIE HAS NOT HAD THE INFLUENCE WE HAD HOPED - DO YOU AGREE? DT SHOULD STAY - DONT CARE FOR SOME OF HIS DECISIONS - PARTICULARLY INVOLVING PITCHING - ONCE AGAIN WHERE IS KRANITZ -

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Pete's reply: I'm sure that whatever was written was the result of talking to people inside the clubhouse, so I would guess if Guthrie was telegraphing pitches, Kranitz saw it before anybody else. But who knows? Kranitz has had to work with 40 pitchers this year, so it's a big job.

Pete,
Never trade starting pitching remember 1991 the O's traded some guy named Schilling and Pete Harnish for Glenn Davis. It ruined the pitching for 4 years and except for 1997 the O's have never had a deep rotation. It really is simple buy Figgins or Beltre and believe it or not see if Bedard is healthy and if his price is right sign him. He will not cost as much as Lackey and probably won't cost you a draft pick either.

Two things. First, I think MacPhail underestimated Sherrill's and Huff's importance to the team and did not think trading them would deplete the team as much as it did. I can see how the psychological impact of losing those teammates alone would be devastating. Second, I think the September meltdown was hoped to be avoided by bringing up all those fresh arms late in the season, not earlier, as it happened and so the team was really set up for another late season drop-off as much by circumstance as miscalculations by upper management.

What we may have done however is ensure that next season these kids are ready to be full-season major league pitchers and so any trades in July 2010 will be completed to make the team more, not less, competitive.

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Pete's reply: I agree with a lot of what you say, but not the fresh arms part. The young pitchers would have been pitching all along in the minors, so they would not have been fresh. They would be in much the same shape they are now.

Pete,

Good win today and yesterday! It's a million times better being out there when they win than what my friends and I usually experience.

Careful of the Plan though. Andy doesn't like to spend, which was his problem for years in Chicago.

Like now with the O's, andy tried to build the farm while surrounding youth with middle of the road players - Cub versions of Wiggy.

Only much, much later, when he augmented youngsters with proven veterans did he start to see success.

Word is Angelos likes Andy because he'll continue to keep the payroll low. That's a shame! Baltimore is not nearly the small market people tend to think it is, yet that's how the payroll has looked for awhile.

We're not saying compete with NY and Boston. Markets like Baltimore simply can't. We are however, hoping Andy is allowed to spend in the middle of the pack, just so we can be competitive.

Yes, stockpiling youth is wise. To be out payrolled by so many teams in smaller markets however, shows a complete disinterest in winning by angelos.

So please be careful of buying in with both feet. If this club can't augment their youth with a few proven high priced players, then the O's will not win, will not compete.

Let's hope he gets in the 80m range in 2010 Pete. That would be trying. Anything else would be more of the same.

I think Adrian Gonzalez would be the right guy for the right moment. It would cost us: something like Tillman, Snyder and Luke Scott might get the job done. You have to move quality to get quality. Just hang on to Matusz! I think that kid is special. How often do you see a guy with a feel for 4 major-league pitches at age 22? He's just going to get better.

I would also sign a free agent pitcher. If Lackey is too pricey, I would go for someone like Kevin Millwood.

Promise us Pete that if we don't get an impact 1B or 3B or SP that you will rip the O's continuously and admit that we're not serious about winning.

Well Pete not all progress is measured in wins and losses. In terms of the real objective of this season, letting our young players develop, it's been a rousing success. We have two ROY candidates in Bergesen and Reimold, Adam Jones was an all-star and more importantly was vastly improved over last season. Tillman and Matusz have shown enough in their cups of coffee to imagine how good they'll be in the future if not sooner. And lets not forget Matt Weiters who is slowly but surely coming around, I'm looking for a great sophomore season from him next year. So the W's aren't there now but there are tons of reasons for optimism, not too mention the O's will almost certainly have a top five draft pick this off-season. Oh and before we go trading anyone away for an expensive slugger, don't forget about Josh Bell killing the ball in the minors. The O's have positioned themselves very nicely, accumulating assets for now and the future. Nothing's a sure thing, all you can do is put yourself in the best position to succeed and under Macphail's stewardship the O's have done just that. Given that he really has yet to make a wrong move, in my opinion, I'm excited to see what he does this off-season. Oh and the team is 2-3 thus far in September, far from a swoon.

I was upset even though it's the right decision to shut down Chris and Brian, but I'm really enjoying the rebirth of Guthrie, as this is the Jeremy, that we've seen the last two years. No doubt that if can continue his streak of quality starts through the rest of this season, next year, he will have a great sense of confidence, knowing he can come back from anything.

I don't know how anyone else feels about Berken, but whether he ends up as a starter or reliever, this kid is tough. He's been bashed more than any rookie pitcher that I can recall, but has never quit or changed his approach so I am hopeful that like Jeremy, he can go out with a bang and be ready in FL, with a great deal of confidence.

Does Juan know that #23 in Baltimore isn't MJ, but Wiggy? He doesn't send Pie, the night before, but he sends a man that makes Huff, look like Roberts on the bases. I don't get this guy at all. Thank goodness that Juan, doesn't work as a school crossing guard or there would be some pretty pissed off parents in Baltimore.

Pete, I've heard that Chad Moeller, really has taken Wieters under his wing, as well as the young staff. I tend to believe this because since he's come back to the O's, the starting staff, has been much better. Curious what you've heard? I would like to see the O's bring back Chad, as the backup next year. He hustles, plays hard, communicates well and doesn't complain when he's not in the lineup. He's a good guy to have around in my book.

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Pete's reply: I think the Orioles like Chad a lot and will probably bring him back if he wants to come back.

Well if would cost the Orioles Tillan or Matusz then the answer should be no trade. The Orioles have not found out enough about the two of them, but they certainly look like they could be very good in the future. You have to give up something to get talent, unless you go free agency. Hope that the Orioles fix the lack of a good run producer, but really you never know, Reimold and Wieters in a full year, and if both are healthy could be good run producers. You do not have to have a guy that hits 40 home runs to win, 5 good starting pitchers would help more. If I was the GM I would not let any of the prospects go to sign Gonzalez, we have not learned enough about these guys.

Pete, the deals you referred to have nothing to do with whether the 0's "swoon" or not. This club is in every game. Yes, the Yankees went out and exhibited the killer instinct they have, but who was surprised they were capable of doing that?

This club's current starting rotation is way better than at any point this decade, even with Bergesen out and Koji gone. I am impressed and believe the wins will come.

And I could have written this before today's game.

I really think the O's will/should package Jones in a trade for Gonzales. I like Pie in center.
I think Jones, Patton, Johnson, gets you Gonzales
no way Matusz, Bergesen and Tillmans name even come up

Pete,

I know the Orioles major needs are a first baseman, a third baseman - one of which should be a power hitter - and a front of the rotation pitcher. Looking at the free agent market, I see Chone Figgins at third base but no one available for first or starting pitching. For a power bat Matt Holiday will be available but then you would need to move Luke Scott and Nolan Reimold. For first base I'd be interested in Garrett Atkins from Colorado. He can play first and third and he's coming off a down year so he might not be that expensive. Also, he is a good friend of Matt Holiday and might be able to convince him to consider the Orioles. For pitching there is not free agent that interests me and to get one in a trade would just cost too much.

Bill,
Trading Jones is a non-starter, as I posted in another thread no competent gm trades a 24 year old up and coming young cf with jones tools and athleticism for a 27 year old first baseman. That doesn't even take into account the salary disparity, jones is young, really good, and affordable for at least 4 more years. And he's 3.5 years younger! Why can't you understand the disparity in their respective values? Oh and by the way check out fangraphs.com some time, it's a totally free advanced stats site packed with info, I believe you ridiculed it in another thread.

So the big need is still a power hitting 1B? Still wish we'd have pulled out all the stops on Teixeira. But whats done is done.

Prince or Gonzalez would fit in nicely. Shame O's didn't draft one of those big 1B in the draft years ago.

I'd also be up for trading for Swisher. Still. I like switch hitters that get on base and have power.

Hey Pete,

You stole my blog logic from the night before! Just kidding, you and I seem to have been on the same page since your blog started.

Now, of course , I have to say something controversial.

As we are all aware, Peter Angelos was named the worst owner in Major League Baseball for 2009 by Sports Illustrated, and rightly so. SI noted his long history of meddling starting with the firings of Pat Gillick and Davey Johnson. Now, to be fair, Shamrock's take is that they were not fired, their contracts were not renewed, but let's move beyond that.

Given that the Orioles were in the void for ten yeears with Angelos running the club into the ground, do you think he is merely trying to get the heat off himself by hiring a real GM in Macphail and appearing to give him the authority to deal?

Or is PA still pulling the strings when it begins to spending real money? After all, Macphail has not spent payroll yet, he has reduced it.

What do you think will happen if and when Macphail starts to do his best impersonation of a real GM and tries to sign a few high profile free agents?

My guess is that he will not be allowed to do so and the excuse he will be given by PA is to give the rebuilding plan a chance for a few more years.

I smell a rat whenever it comes to Peter Angelos.

Am I paranoid, or is he just out to get us?

Gil,

Nail on the head sir, nail on the head... Only problem is, the local media can't say what you just said.

Unlike the Ravens, The O's make the media's life miserable if they step too far out of line.

Forget the Yanks, this club doesn't spend middle of the pack money. That said, PA hand picked the perfect guy in AM. Andy hates to spend (see old Cub clippings)...thus AM's 11 year plan in chicago.

Baltimore's not NY, Philly or Boston, but it's also not a small market.

The O's only want you to think they are...

Pete,

How dare ANYONE accusing you of not being in lock step with the O's front office, and I personally take offense that you were ever considered a traitor. While you are much more accepting of "The Plan" which really is no plan at except that it will be a cold day in hell when PA actually drops some serious change on his investment, AM has just about done all he can with limited resources, I just hope the moron running MLB doesn't leave anytime soon and AM become the Commish.

AM's greatest work is ahead of him, A front end starter, 1B, 3B, and a DH not to mention a backend of the bullpen. While not as many of my eggs are in AM's basket, the thought that you have any, anywhere else is proposterous!

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Pete's reply: Thanks for your sarcastic support. I don't know what you want from me. I support the PD efforts and want Andy/Peter to buy some help. Is there another strategy that you think would work? I'm also trying to figure out where you were when Peter Angelos was spending his butt off all those years. It's not that he won't spend money, it's that he didn't spend it wisely. I'm in favor of Andy spending some real money this winter, but I still don't favor the kind of spending that was favored by the "Sign Pedro" movement last spring.

Last month, Mr. Schmuck, you predicted improvement due to development of the O's youngest players. That column backfired, but your latest Sunday column, while equally flawed, produced terrific results. Thank youy for taking one for the team.

Seriously, I'm looking forward to next Spring, mostly because of the pitching of Guthrie, Bergeson, Matusz, Tillman, and Hernandez. Any upgrades via free agency will just make the winter go by more slowly as I wait patiently for opening day 2010.

JD,
I've seen the site...kind of boring to be honest.
you trade for need, you give up what you can afford to trade. We need corner infielders. We have ALOT of outfielders...have you noticed this? Even a few on the fringes..
I'm sure Andy has noticed that we have pitching and outfielders.
I'm sure many GM's (including Andy) would trade for a PROVEN MAJOR LEAGUE POWER HITTING GOLD GLOVE first baseman for an UNPROVEN CENTER FIELDER WHO MAY OR MAY NOT PAN OUT.
Even if there is a three year age difference...Guess who tends to play longer and more productive years
1st basemen or Center fielders?
If you guessed 1st basemen you would be correct.
Guess we see from the injuries of the past week that center fielders also are at more risk for injuries.
So maybe the whole idea of trading a maybe... could be... hopefully... someday....(who has really stunk up the joint for a couple months) for a been there done that guy is not so foolish as you have tried to make it sound

JD,
another thing...this "advanced stats" stuff.
Could be helpful if you have a few full years of consistent performance...but are you kidding with Jones?...the reason we would have to package more players with him is the book is very much still out on him. Project his numbers so far and he hit about 15 home runs a year and drives in 75 and seems cocky to boot. I think every GM in baseball that has a need at 1st base trades Jones for Gonzales.

And you really think 27 is OLD? I guess if you think perhaps statistically 8-10 more years of raking the ball isn't enough then you have a point. Isn't texiera 27 or so too?. I'm sure he'll get someone like that in here

Pete, what's our rotation going to look like when we shut down Tillman and Matusz? Connolly reported that the only starter we're bringing up is Waters, and we're all assuming Koji's pitching out of the bullpen. Are we hoping Bergy makes it back before the youngsters are shut down or what? Maybe they'll have Henderson start 2 or 3 times? That probably also means Dave isn't going with the 6-man rotation eh?

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Pete's reply: Definitely not going with a six-man rotation. He already said that. I think they are going with four starters and a long bullpen for the fifth game when needed. There are two offdays coming up, so we're probably only talking about bullpen-by-committee for a game or two, though I don't care for that approach.

No way our great young pitching and pitching prospects are going anywhere. Matusz, Tillman, Bergy, Arrieta are not going to be even close to being mentioned on trades. They are untouchable and the future of our O's. Reimold, Weiters, Jones, and Markakis are untouchables, and the future of our O's as well. If I were to package a trade for A. Gonzalez and/or Fielder, it would be Scott, Montanez/Pie/Fiorentino, Patton, Lebron(from Bowie), Liz, and Erbe.

Pete, all the speculation is around guys we know in the Majors. Any chance of MacPhail looking internationally, particularly for a pitcher? I know Koji wasn't exactly a huge success this year, but that doesn't mean there isn't talent out there to be found. The MLB F.A. market doesn't seem too well suited to the O's needs this winter.

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Pete's reply: You would hope he'll be looking everywhere, but I'm talking about an established major league starter, not just another pitcher. They're going to have lots of candidates already.

AGonzo comes here... he hits .259 33 HR 89 RBI and costs us too much

The Pads aren't going to give him away, if he is given away at all...

Gill... I wasn't the one who said Gillick wasn't fired but left... someone else.

I said Gillick swarms to teams on the cusp of being good and capitalizes. (Tor, Bal, Sea, Phi). He did (and does) nothing to build franchises, just buys players to fit on already decent teams, no development. He gets out in time to not take a hit to his rep. Mariners went from 93 wins in '93 to 63 the next. He senses an implosion and jets (see O's 98).

Btw.... Gil, the garden Gnome in your front yard that got kicked over, it wasn't the bad kids from down the street, it was PETER ANGELOS! He knows you are speaking bad about him... I TOLD HIM, AT OUR SECRET DESTROY THE ORIOLES MEETING! You should stop using your cell phone and internet... ITS BUGGED!

I will give you two things I don't like about Angelos- his law practice and that he supports the Democratic Party. There, I'm not a shill.

knee jerk reaction of the day...

Release Markakis, Wieters and Andino. Extend Fiorentino, Guthrie, Moeller and Wigginton.

in happier thoughts- anyone think the O's should slightly modify the Elite Giant uni's and sport those next year? very sharp.

Why not platoon Scott and Wigginton at 1st base. AM will find the orioles a player to play 3rd base. Until Bell or Waring is ready. Keep our young pitchers.

shamrock,
Thats amazing
what will I have for lunch on Wednesday?

your guess will be about as useful as your prediction for an entire year regarding Gonzales

I admit that I never watch the Orioles on TV, which makes it impossible to comment on individual games, but could be an asset for having long term perspective.

It seems obvious to me that the Orioles will be a good team (defined by winning in the neighborhood of 88 wins) in the near future with their current trajectory.

In my opinion, MacPhail has been a compentent GM with one brilliant trade to his credit (Bedard) and no terrible mistakes (I'm hoping that their number one draft pick this year will not be the first, but I am giving him the benefit of the doubt for now).

In addition to lecturing, I do some life coaching for businessmen, politicians, and professional athletes in Riga. In almost any field, getting from bad performance to good performance is not all that hard. Basic competency will do it. Unfortunately, the Orioles have not been able to get to good through enormous incompetency.

However, it is very difficult to get from good (88 wins) to great (98 wins) and the Orioles need to be great to compete in their division.

To me MacPhail now has a chance to really prove himself. He can't rely on the current trajectory to carry the Orioles to greatness in the next couple of years because he doesn't have enough assets to do it.

Therefore, he needs to take some of the surplus assets the organization does have (young pitching and cash reserves), and figure out how to multiply them in a way that gets you to a 98 win plateau.

I'm not sure how to do this best. The needs seem obvious (power bats on the infield corners) but it will take more than mere competency to come up with the combination of moves that take you from 88 to 98 wins.

I am eager to see if MacPhail is up to the challenge.

Gil,

That was me with Gillick. I was just splitting hairs with you over it anyway.

Rather than get too far into it though, I thought I'd try bullet points:

- McPhail didn't sign BRob to any money?
- McPhail didn't sign Nick to any money?
- Wieters?
- Hobgood?
- Givens?
- Koji?

Other thoughts:

Why would McPhail keep payroll to lose? So you feel better? "Gee I'm glad we kept Huff another month for this."

I think McPhail should be commended for all the bloated salary dumps he orchestrated of overrated/overpaid guys.

Do you think penny pinching Angelos of old would have paid Gibbons $5 mil or whatever to take a hike or Jamie Walker? McPhail got him to pay to fire guys. To think McPhail is just a McPuppet is pretty out there to me. The guy is the commissioner apparent and would probably walk the second he thought he was being made to do someone else's evil bidding.

You and wayne need to just keep your SI magazine under your pillow, take a deep breathe and wait until the offseason since bitching about moves not being made in September is annoying and useless.

Pete I'm with you on this one. Without a legit power hitter, we'll be doomed to another year of dismal failures and the FO praying to the masses not to give up on the "PLAN".

Pete I'm with you on this one. Without a legit power hitter, we'll be doomed to another year of dismal failures and the FO praying to the masses not to give up on the "PLAN".

Why not two power hitters- one at first and one at third. Combine them with the rest of the team and we'll have both pitching and power.

Tampa Bay

The cloud that overshadows the Plan- whether it works or not.

Get a grip people. We are in the American League East. No matter how long or how well Andy McPhail and company work out a rebuilding plan, the most it can do is get us to the playoffs for one year.

The fundamental problem with the Orioles is MLB. Everything else is secondary.

The starting pitching has been encouraging recently. Wondering aloud: Has Guthrie's improvement coincided since both Matusz and Tillman came up from the minors? That seems to be right about the time of his turnaround. And if that is the case he has realized what he has to do now as a front end starter.

It would be nice to have a guy like Gonzalez, but you don't want to give up Tillman. I would not be against giving up Luke Scott (too inconsistent).

I agree with Bill Frederick in one respect. I still feel that Pie could be an everyday CF. It is becoming apparent that Jones is injury prone. Or so the indication has it. And I still wonder if LF would be better suited for him. Two reasons go into that. It would reduce the wear on him tracking so much ground and maybe the playcalling in CF is affecting his hitting. Felix Pie seems to bring alot of energy to the game and has fun doing it. I also see alot of Alfonso Soriano in him. And I would guess that most people would not mind a player like that in the game. Soriano has had some very solid years (this one aside).

As for the pitching: What about Brett Myers? While being a jerk, if he comes back to form from the hip surgery he could be a solid starter. Maybe we will be exploring that option.

It should be interesting.

Shamrock,

I think you are on to something, something or someone keeps trying to take over my mouse, and it must be John Angelos in the master control room.

James C.,

My whole opinion since this extended blog started is that we would not even be having these conversations if th National League had not moved in down the street. Angelos was content to own the only local losing MLB franchise and made money at it. He was afraid of the competetion and that the Nats might actually try to win.

Macphail is doing a GM impersonation signing draft choices and a few of his existing players, however at the end of the day we may still end up with the one of the lowest payrolls in MLB.

I'll hold on to my SI subscription and when and if the Orioles make a Major free agent aquisition this off season, I will cancel it.

Reality Bites is correct, but that's what we need to try to do--win a championship every 5-10 years. Sad but true, although certainly better than what we have done for the last decade plus.

With a month to go in the season, nary a pennant race in sight (NL West, but the team that doesn't win that division is a virtual lock for the wild card) and big market teams winning every division except the lowly central divisions of both leagues, you would think MLB would finally see what a flawed product it has. The fans of half the teams stopped caring after the All-Star break and half of the rest have stopped caring by now. It doesn't take a genius to look at the most popular sport in the country--football--to see that a salary cap is the only way to have a league comprised of big market and small market teams and give everyone a chance to meaningfully compete on a frequent basis.

Are some of you still beating that old drum about Angelos not spending money and also being content with losing....

just plain dumb and incorrect...

he has spent alot of money on free agents the last 12 years and you can argue it was for the wrong ones, but not that he didn't spend.

are facts really so hard for you all to grasp?

also this idea that he is content losing?? really ? so that is why he decided to turn control over to AM?

you folks that say such things show a lack of understanding about human nature and a dir=sregard for facts in front of you. He of course wants to make a profit AND WIN. You don't amass a large fortune in his business by not worrying about whether you win or lose.

Please throw away the rear view mirrors and enjoy the ride these young kids are about to take you on.

It reminds me of adults who look at all their problems and want to go back and blame everything on their parents and all the mistakes they made

the only thing to say to folks like that is GET OVER IT!

Playoffs 2010!!!

Bill- you are going to have left over spaghetti from dinner tuesday night for lunch on Wednesday. It will be somewhat dry, but otherwise good.

The O's are finally getting some decent front line talent at SP... I dont think the O's are going to be willing to trade Tillman, Matusz for anyone. I think AM is packing the farm system with more pitching talent for trades down the road and would consider trading a A-AA Tillman or Matusz, not ML starter Tillman or Matusz. We get a big bat, lose a front line starter. You win with pitching, hitting will follow.

Dana Jacobsen's blouse under her suit coat almost matches her skin. Didn't think she had a top on...

AGonzo hit .228 from May thru August 20 hr 44 rbi

AJones hit .238 Jun-Sept 8 hr 38 rbi

shamrock,
thanks for straigtening that out. I like many others don't like the unknown.

totally agree regarding Matusz and Tillman i'm sure Bergesen is off the table also

how about Mora Izturis Moeller and Juan Samuel for Gonzales?
alright, alright, we will throw in Tom Davis for their pregame show

Comma madness Birdland Todd! I kept tripping over the misplaced misfits.

I think Andy IS sticking to his plan of rebuilding by trading away our veteran players for future talent. I think he realized that who cares about the won-loss record and the dreaded September swoon when he can get young guys for years to come. I think what he really wants to see is our young guys and core players play well and hard and build some momentum going into next season. That is what he meant and that is most important.

Bill,

Exhibit A is 12 losing seasons in a row, it doesn't matter why.

If I had one losing season in a row my business would dissolve and I would be forced to give myself my unconditional release.

There would be no blog where all of the Gil apologists would rationalize my falure and whine that I spent a lot of money and tried really hard and I just had some bad luck.

Angelos was not compelled to make an investmment in this run down franchise until the National League moved down the Parkway.

Rather than try to invest in the farm system and rebuild, he fought the Expos move.

Why do you think he did that? I submit that he had the entire market to himself and if you wanted to see a Major League baseball game you had to drive to Baltimore.

Now he is playing catch up "football" and trying to get to the head of his own parade before the Nats start winning and further erode his fan base.

Peter Angelos apparent change of heart to rebuild, invest and improve his basball team is out of pure survival, nothing more.

If the Nats fail and eventually move away{Which is a distinct possibility since DC couldn't support two prior teams} we will be right back where we were.

That's why, in a perverse way I am rooting for the Nats to get better and force Angelos to try to make the Orioles better.

Bill,
I love your enthusiasm, though I think .500 in 2010 is a more realistic goal, so I'll take one more stab at this. Age 27 isn't "old", however it's pretty well established that players tend to peak in their age 27 season. Once a player peaks he can maintain or regress, and occasionally improve slightly. So AG is at his peak right now, if the O's acquired him they would have his services for 3 years of, maybe, peak performance at a salary rate of $3mil, $4.75mil, $5.5mil, then he hits free agency and who knows. Yes right now he's a better hitter than AJ, but he plays the least important defensive position on the diamond. The flip side, AJ is still three years from his peak and has an incredible minor league track record and has performed extremely well in mlb for his age. He'll make roughly $.5 next year and then in 2011 he'll have his first year of arbitration, 2012 second year, 2013 third year, unless the O's buy out some of those years. So the O's will have AJ at a reasonable salary for at least the next 4 years taking him to age 28. He's a five tool player playing the 3rd most important defensive position on the field at a high level. I would not call him "injury prone", he's had a few minor injuries, welcome to baseball. So the question really becomes do you want to pay AG at least $13.25mil for his age 27-30 seasons at the least important defensive position, or pay AJ say maybe $6mil, it could be a bit more or a bit less, for seasons 24-28 at a premium defensive position? The O's may have some extra outfielders but they only have one Adam Jones. I can't state their relative values any more, sorta, clearly than that, hope it make sense. Oh and I'm sorry to hear fangraphs bores you, I'm constantly amazed at the wealth of info about mlb we have access to for free. For me advanced stats give great context to what I watch on TV.

Off topic here, but who takes care of the front page of this site? The schedule of upcoming games has us playing Boston tomorrow, then Texas, at Fenway park no less, followed by Texas again, this time in NY.

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Pete's reply: Well, it wasn't me and I didn't see that, but we do make a mistake on occasion.

For Bill Frederick, and all the other amateur psychologists who can read and interpret players' "cockiness" from afar, please tell me this:

1. Exactly HOW are you able to conclude that a player is cocky? And what your definition of being cocky?

2. Has there ever been a successful athlete that didn't have extreme confidence in themselves, bordering on cockiness or exaggerated ego?

3. Is it really that important to the egos and extreme arrogance of FANS that athletes put on an "aw shucks" fake humility dog and pony show just for your sakes?

Pete,

You suggest the Orioles might want to go after Gonzalez. An intriguing thought,, but who would you give up for him?

I know the O's would have to part with some real talent, but just how much? After all, we don't want a Bedard-type deal going in the opposite direction.

From my perspective, all of the following players should all be regarded as off the table in any trade negotiations: Roberts, Markakis, Jones, Wieters, Reimold, Matusz, Bergesen, Tillman, Guthrie and Arrieta. I'd also be reluctant to part with Pie, Scott, Izturis, Bell, Ray, Uehara, Johnson and Mickolio.

I agree with Birdland Todd that it might be a good idea for the team to bring back Moeller. Do you have any idea whether he's in their plans for '10?

.............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Wow, Ken, you must think this is a pretty good team if you're not willing to trade anybody off it. I don't think this team will every compete in the AL East if it doesn't come up with a true cleanup hitter who's a lock to give you 35-40 homers a year if healthy. You don't get that for Wigginton, Mora and three no-name prospects.

Good grief, Ken, you don't plan on getting any big nme player in a trade, do you?

To me the untouchbles are:
Matusz
Weiters
Tillman
Markakis
Jones (and he might be borderline if his name reduces the need to add more bodies for a Gonzalez or Fielder)

I think Adrian Gonzalez would be the right guy for the right moment. It would cost us: something like Tillman, Snyder and Luke Scott might get the job done. You have to move quality to get quality. Just hang on to Matusz! I think that kid is special. How often do you see a guy with a feel for 4 major-league pitches at age 22? He's just going to get better.

I would also sign a free agent pitcher. If Lackey is too pricey, I would go for someone like Kevin Millwood.

Posted by: Orsulakfan | September 6, 2009 6:03 PM
______________

Why do you think the Padres would give Gonzalez away for only TIllman, Synder and Scott? Only an idiot or the Seattle Mariners front office would be that stupid. If Snyder is suppose to be a good player, why not hold on to him and let him grow along with Tillman, Matusz, Reimhold, Wieters, etc. Tillman is un proven so far as is Synder, so how can you say "you have to move quality to get quality?" The Orioles were burned before giving up young talent for Glenn Davis. By the way, current stats for Gonzalez: .273BA, 35HR's, 81 RBI, 128Hits. Last year Aubrey Huff had 32HR's with 30 points higher batting average and over 100 RBI. True it's still September but like the man said, grow the arms, BUY the bats. Do NOT trade away young pitching prospects. KEEP THE ARMS; BUY THE BATS.

Off topic but I couldn't resist: Shawn Merriman only choked Tequilla and threw her to the ground to "keep her from driving drunk." *LMAO* That has to be the best BS line since "the check's in the mail" and "I didn't have sex with that woman, Miss Lewinsky."

It's now looking like a shame that the O's didn't sign Adam Dunn. The Nats got a young 40/100 power hitter in his prime for a decent price, and they didn't have to give up any prospects to do it.

All,

What ridiculous post (by most)!

Anyone who suggest angelos spends, using brob and nick m as examples need to just stop.

We're talking total payroll people. If he didn't pay a decent amount to a few players, the payroll would be 18m.

I get beat up on these post because I speak a different tone. I don't blindly go along with every new plan the warehouse throws at us. I don't say 'playoff's in 2010' just because they just won 2 games in a row.

Nationally, AM may be respected, but he's not considered anywhere near the top of presidents/gm's in this business. I know that's hard to swallow, but outside baltimore, it's a fact.

The youth movement is a start. He must now spend however. If this team doesn't get in the 75-85m range during the offseason, they will be under 500 again.

There are 15 of us who purchased 30 seats (81 game plans) when Camden was built. We've lost a third because they couldn't deal with the lies from the warehouse any longer. If PA doesn't allow AM to spend this winter, they'll lose more people like us.

Most don't realize it, but this stadium is getting dangerously close to averaging under 20,000 fans per night (accept when ny/bos is in town). Once that happens, baltimore baseball truly becomes Pittsburgh.

And guess what, Pitts baseball fans heard all the same things for years, until they just gave up....thus the reason they're now completely irrelevant.

Baltimore baseball is next if things don't change drastically, and very soon.

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Pete's reply: Well, Wayne, of course the total payroll has been small the past couple of years, but during the years that Angelos was calling all the shots, it was a lot higher. He did spend a lot of money, just not very well. If you don't like MacPhail's plan, that's fine, but to suggest the reason it's no good is because it hasn't included more of that stupid spending on unproductive players is just insane.

Pete;

I could not disagree more. There is no way we should **gamble on one of the high-quality free agents with an injury history**, nor ever want to see the day when AM feels he needs to throw the fans a bone. It will be a bad sign the day he does.

As I said in a previous post you were kind enough to respond too, the Os were never a two year rebuilding project when AM came on board. They were little better than an expansion team with little reason to believe they were going to be a winning team much sooner than one.

It is way too early to be trading away the pool of young pitchers AM is assembling. We do not know for sure that we even have 4 capable of forming a good rotation along with Guthrie. It would be a mistake to lose the depth we have until we know the answer to that.

I see the possibility of AM making deals this offseason, but not to the point of thinning out the depth of young pitching he is trying to build. I can see a free agent signing, but no big names for the simple reason that big names are going to want to see the potential of our young talent realized before they sign. We are not there yet.

wayne, you don't blindly go along WITH everything coming out of the warehouse...you blindly go AGAINST everything they have to say...it won't matter what they say or do, you're knee jerk against it...I say, give up your tickets, and don't let the door hit you in th ebutt on the way out...and don't come back to jump on the bandwagon when the Orioles DO become contender...

Birdland Todd:

I am kicking myself for not coming up with the idea of Juan Samuel as a school crossing guard. That is hilarious!

It would make a nice skit, for a "Where Are They Now?" piece that is set in the future.

The thought of Dave Trembley as the world's worst air traffic controller brings a smile to my face too.

Wayne,

Fantastic! You speak for so many of us out here. The fact that you also support this team in an extreme way also suggest you're in no way a fair weathered fan.

Did Keith say 'knee jerk'? Now that made me laugh. Anyone suggesting someone is knee jerk because they're tired of the product this team puts out, automatically loses all credibility.

I also loved the 'bandwagon' line he used. Sure seems that if you and your friends are putting out that kind of cash, you've been in the wagon, on the wagon and pushing the wagon. Problem is, the wagon is rusty and falling apart - headed towards 100 losses.

Please don't let those who would walk in front of a bus, just because AM tells them to, get to you. Yours is one of the only voices of reason I've seen. So many obviously agree with you, but you seem to hit a nerve with the Angelos followers more than most.

Keep the faith, and continue trying to keep this team honest.

Back from the future with an article from the October 2019 edition of Sports Illustrated. The article focuses on catching up with the cast of the 2009 Balitmore Orioles.

Juan Samuel: Following his termination after the 2009 season, the former Orioles third base coach accepted a job as crossing guard outside of a Baltimore City elementary school. Samuel was let go after a week, during which time the mortality rate for ages 6-10 surpassed that of the over 90 age group in Baltimore for the first time since....well ever. Samuel disappeared from the public eye shortly afterword and was last known to be working for the United States Government developing alternative energy sources, most notably wind energy.

Dave Trembley: Trembley was also terminated following the 2009 season. He briefly attempted a career as air traffic controller at Thurgood Marshall Airport. In fact Trembley's tenure in that postion lasted all one infamous day. "The Great Maryland Air Massacre of 2010" Following the tragic events surrounding that day, a spokesperson for the airport was quoted as saying "The decision to hire Mr. Trembley is certainly a regrettable one. He never quite knew which planes to bring in and which ones to leave out there. And he seemed much more concerned with making friends with the pilots, than performing his duties in a safe and efficient mannrr."
Trembley resurfaced in the public eye in 2012 when he defeated reigning champion Joey Chestnut at the Nathan's hot dog eating championships in Coney Island, New York. Trembley has gone on to win the competition 7 years in a row and his world record stands at 112 hot dogs and buns in 12 minutes.

The Angelos Family: Following the death of patriarch Peter in 2013, his oldest son John moved the Orioles to Las Vegas three days later. Angelos subsequently sold the team and used to the resources to purchase several Bunny Ranch locations throughout the state of Nevada. He is now the owner/operator of one such establishment 30 miles outside of Carson City.

Melvin Mora: The longtime Oriole third baseman retired following the 2009 offseason in which Baltimore failed to exercise a team option for 2010. Mr. Mora is now the owner of the largest daycare facility on the east coast. As an interesting side note, Mr. Mora is actually the father of every child enrolled at the day care facility.

Free Agency and Most of the Other 2009 O's: The New York Yankees broke their record for most money spent on free agent acquisitions in a single year, twice in 2014 and 2015. The 2015 mark of 3.6 billion remains the most to this day. Notable free agents pickups in this two year stretch include: Matt Wieters, Adam Jones, Nick Markakis, Nolan Riemold, Felix Pie, Brian Roberts, Brad Burgeson, Chris Tillman, Brian Matusz, Jake Arrietta, and Brandon Snyder.
The Yankees are currently involved in the 2019 ALCS and seeking their 7th consecutive MLB Championship. They broke the regular season record for wins this year by posting a mark of 158-4.

The Baltimore Sun: The only significant newspaper media source in Baltimore finally shut down operations in 2011 after the firesale of struggling parent company Tribune. The executives of Tribune liquidated every possible asset in the sale of the long standing company. What little money that was recovered from the firesale was lost shortly later when the executives made the fatal decision to invest in pay phones, typewriters and the 8 track cassette player.

Peter Schmuck: After liquidation of the Sun in 2011 and mostly notably the famous blog "The Schmuck Stops Here", Mr. Schmuck left sports journalism for good saying though that he wasn't about to abandon his frustrated following of Baltimore baseball fans, and that he vowed he would provide them with "another forum to express their opinions and emotions." Mr. Schmuck's current whereabouts are not known but he is rumored to be the head of the immensely popular Baltimore underground fight club scene.

I said knee jerk because people like wayne will react to any news about the orioles without any thought...If someone from the warehouse said 2+2=4 and the sky is blue, the waynes of the world would be questioning their judgment in saying so.

I'm justas tired of the product as the rest of you guys on here. What makes YOUR credibility suspect is complaining for the sake of complaining. Being a fan and being disatisfied doesn't mean you have to resort to saying stupid stuff and b1tching nonstop to show how much you care. To me, thoughful objection and comments have credibility...knee jerk wailing just for the sake of it doesn't...

wayne is no voice of reason, just the opposite of kool aid drinker...one who opposes for the ske of opposing...so if he's that disatisified, then do what his other friends have done and walk away...good riddance...

And I like how your definition of "voice of reason" is any opinion that grees with yours...

Thanks.... I'll keep wearing my orange, but if folk like me at least try to hold the office accountable, maybe we'll see this team compete rather than continually pat themselves on the back while losing 100 games.

AM has done some good things, no doubt. But if this town doesn't keep pushing, the O's will be the Pirates of the american league, if we aren't already.

And by the way, the negative comments toward me don't bother me in the slightest. I'm at the park alot and I know what people are saying and feeling. Guys like Keith are very much in the minority. Reality is seeing more and more empty seats and the Yanks and Sox calling Camden their own. That speaks much more than I could ever try.....

Thanks again!

He's not generic like you Keith. You see, one can be a fan yet still hold a team to high standards. If Wayne had a segment on 1057 The Fan, he'd be the most listened to sports show in town. People want directness and they want honest evaluation - knowing that someone like Wayne can speak his mind without worrying about the Orioles front office. It'll never happen though, not while the Angelos family is in charge. Too bad!

I am a huge fan, and I hold them to high standards too, but to me if you're going to hold your team to high standards, then you ought to hold yourself to high enough standads that you know wtf you're talking about...

and while he might be able to host a talk radio show and be popular, that is no indication of anything but the idiocy that medium has devolved into...

He may be direct, and he may be honest, but neither of those things means he knows wht he is talking about...

Listen, I'm not hear to stick up for Wayne. It's just that what he has said makes all the sense in the world. Maybe he's wrong, maybe I'm wrong... One thing is for sure however, the O's have been wrong for over a decade. They have LOST the benefit of the doubt. They have LOST the chance to simply keep talking. AM works like a snail. That's his style! FIne, but he's been here 2 years now and they are worst than ever. They have a few good players, combined with a bunch of hopefuls. EVERY team has a bunch of hopefuls. Now though, they must start to win. Not the playoffs, but they must go 500 next year. The odds are stacked hugely against them though, and all Wayne is trying to do, as someone who supports the team, is hold them accountable. If everyone were like you, this team would never feel a need to improve. Your kind are why we're in this position in the first place. If you want this team to compete, step up! Demand real progress!

Yo, Peter, where can I get this Kool-Aid I keep hearing about? I want some!
Curious: Does it work with garlic stuffed olives?
Just askin'.
Also, as a lifelong (give or take a couple decades) MKE Brewers fan (we're more a beer group than Kool-Aid) I can't tell you how impressed I am with the Orioles. Only 11 straight losing seasons? Are you kidding me? Hope -- thy color is Orange.

Peter: You're smarter than this, I know you are.

You don't support the Sherrill deal? Or the Huff deal? These are deals we're talking about -- not "deals" in the abstract.

Sherrill was at his peak value and the O's got a good 3B prospect, which they need. Huff wasn't hitting anyway; they got something for him, and let him have a chance to play in the playoffs.

You would rather have held onto Sherrill and won another game or two this September? Is that what you're saying?

If not, what exactly are you saying?

.............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Go back and read it again. I'm talking about the mixed message that fans got from the front office. MacPhail et al said that they were trying to get to a point where the Orioles could avoid a late-season collapse. The Sherrill deal made that a much less likely proposition. Was it a good deal. Time will tell. I don't really have a problem with it, but it almost guaranteed the team would flounder at the end. Huff certainly doesn't bother me from a long-term perspective, but it did hurt the team over the short run. You can't look at his Detroit stats and say that's what he would have done here. He struggled at midseason, but he's still a decent run-producer.

We can have a frank exchange of opinions without name calling and insults on this blog. I have very strong opinions about the Angelos family and how we got to 12 losing seasons in a row and I have expressed them frequently. I think that everyone who posts here regularly is informed and passionate. We just disagree.

I do question the posters who are always negative and offer no positive solutions yet claim to be 81 game aseason ticket holders.

My gut feel is that they have not attended a game in person in years but thats just me.

Sounds like sweet Lou Montanez is bitter that he was not included on 40 man. I'd rather had seen him then another catcher or reliever. I don't blame him if he was told to rehab so he could be added.

Hope you had a nice day, Peter. I'm sure that running this blog is thankless and having to allow posts that Adam Jones is injury prone and should be traded is painful. Also, the trades we propose for Gonzo that do not include our top young pitchers are crazy. San Diego would start with Tillman and Matusz.

.............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Yes, I have had a nice day off, thanks. Don't mind all the opinions. That's what this is all about.

Gil,

You should always follow your gut. After all, it got your where you are today.....

It's all good everyone. No haters allowed!

Doug, thanks for the props... Know that you do so at your own risk however, as these post (accept for a few) are continued, generic happy talkers, likely recruited from the warehouse, masn (or both).

Off to Boston.... The thing about bean town is, they don't care if I wear my O's hat. Last time I was there, a dude bought us beers because he felt bad for O's fans. Can't imagine what they'll buy us this year.

Pete,
Would you take a minute and explain to me the reason why Jim Miller is not being given the opportunity to pitch this fall? His ERA is solid, his win/lost is on par with Norfolk's and he has been a loyal soldier for a long time! Give him the opportunity he deserves!

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Pete's reply: Obviously, they don't consider him a real option, or they would have brought him up.

i think it would be great to sign Lackey, however, it ain't gonna happen. Unless they give him Barry Zito money, he is going to the Sox or Yankees. Why go from LA and a winner to Balti and a loser?

However... I wonder how "Coor's Field: Bronx Edition" is going to affect FA pitching signings in NY? Prob help the Mets since they build "Yellowstone Park: Flushing Edition".

I'm all for demanding progress...I just can't stnad with someone who does so in a way that is just as ill conceived and incompetent as the Orioles themselves have been...you can't be taken seriously demanding accountbility while sounding like an idiot...

Keith,
you state the following
1. Exactly HOW are you able to conclude that a player is cocky? And what your definition of being cocky?

Well, it's one of those things where you just know it when you see it.
Here is a list of players and coaches
1. Barry Bonds, Brian Roberts
2. Roger Clemens, Scott Mcgregor
3. Bill Parcells, Tony Dungy
4. Pete Rose, Cal Ripken
5. Terrell Owens, Art Monk

In answer to your question, it sometines is pretty easy to pick out the "cocky" athletes. It's one of those things you just know when you see it. Of course they all have tremendous pride and sense of accomplishment at this level, but I would just say that not all people that achieve at high levels must possess "cockiness".

Vince Lombardi cussed like sailor and thought that winning was the most important thing in the world.
Tony Dungy never even raised his voice in anger at any of his players.
They both won super bowls.
I will take the Dungy's above the Lombardis 7 days a week.
I'll take San Antonio and Popovich style over Gary Williams Style 8 days a week.
But that's just me

Where does Adam Jones fall here? Not sure yet, but to me he appears cocky, perhaps I'm misreading him, but time will tell.

Keith, you need to give it up bro. You're calling people out, yet you sound like you work for the birds.

Doug, count me in as someone who would listen to Wayne on the radio. Anything is better than always having to hear the usual O's suck ups. Why not him? At least he sounds like he'd relate to real fans.

I hardly work for the Birds, and hey, if you want to follow someone who doesn't know what he's talking about and offers no alternatives, then you would fit right in with the rest of the crowd who would listen...

I'll be happy to align myself with anyone who wants to offer reasonable, factual objections to the Orioles regime...wayne isn't one of those...

Bill Frederick,

Great post!

Bill, I guess you are really in touch with your feminine side...

Then again, believing that Adam Jones has done ANYTHING to merit even remotely considered with some of the names you listed jsut strikes me as the musings of someone looking to find something wrong with a person...

Furthermore, do you really know whether the Ripkens, Monks, Roberts, et.al., aren't cocky? Maybe they just are more image conscious than the so-called bad guys you have listed, because they were indoctrinated into believing that appeasing arrogant fans by putting on a (fake?) humble display is a matter of importance...

I've gotta agree with keith on that one.

I think that almost anyone who has had an encounter with Cal when there wasn't a camera or microphone around would attest to his "cockyness".

Hi Bill,

I do not think that it makes much sense what you say. All of that for Jones. Really Lombardi over Dungy? Pete Roes was a guy that would do anything to win all of the time, not part time. That is what it is about win, not hold each other and feel better.

I could put all those guys that you mention in a lineup and be thrilled, love to have Clemens and McGregor in the same rotation. Being a little cocky is not bad, playing with confidence is a must for an athlete.

Anyway an interesting way to put a point across, you really upset Bear Bryant up in football heaven according to Lombardi, he is pi$$ed you left hm off.

Fact is Jones has been a valuable young player for this team. We have been through maybe 8 center fielders in the last 10 years, glad he is here.

If there was another Pete Rose somewhere out there available, I am sure the Orioles would take him in a second. I do agree on Owens he is in his own world.

Hi Bill Frederick,

One more for you.
1. Weaver - Tembley

I just posted in response to Keith asking how one can tell someone is "cocky".

I've had my own business for years and work with many other businesses.
In any line of work including proffessional athletics you have people of every kind. You can go about your business in an arrogant and cocky manner or you can go about it in a humble (I guess that means feminine for you macho guys like Keith) and thankful manner. Of course the latter is wiser because anything one does in sports is due to the fact that God gave that person that ability. So you'll either honour him happily in this life or you will honour him grudgingly and miserably in the next. i enjoy seeing athletes who give the credit to their maker.

You can be successful in both ways. Personally, though, I couldn't stand the Brian Billick era just because of his over the top arrogance. I think Harbaugh was a breath of fresh air in that dept. Does that make him feminine? Hardly. Is Tony Dungy feminine? Go ask the teams he coached who laid it all on the line for him every game.

Bill,

Sorry, but Keith's the smartest person in his cubicle, thus his justification for making personal attacks.

You're better off paying him no mind,,,,,

Exactly who, what, when, and how did I personally attack anyone in here?

Bill, my point is you don't know (and neither do I) who in the world of sports is arrogant, and quite frankly it matters not whether someone is or not...every one of those names you listed, of every personality, won championship titles...some of them displayed their egos outwardly, some not...SO WHAT?????????????????

And did it ever occur to you, Bill, that some of the so called humble guys were putting on an act to pull the wool over the eyes of fans like you who need to have their own egos stroked by having athletes play the humble game for them?

Did it ever occur to you, furthermore, that some of those athletes you labeled as arrogant or cocky were in fact very thankful and humble about their abilities and success, but just didn't have the personality to pull off the "awww shucks" dog and pony show that certain fans feel is of some importance?

Keith, you're a bitter dude....

Wayne has a little bit of a following here and you can't deal with it. You keep calling him and anyone else out who doesn't fall in line with the current oriole way.

i also think he's been spot on and if you're so brilliant, then counter his logic instead of the typical 'if you don't like it it, leave' mentality.

And, Keith's suggesting that you were getting in touch with your fem side is classic closet stuff. I thought what he said was interesting. I may not totally agree, but it was good food for thought.

Lighten up!

The bottom line for me, is that I find it disgusting that you would cast aspersions on the character of a young player like Adam Jones based on what, exactly?

Pete,

I'd be happy to have Oscar Salazar back. He's hitting .340 for San Diego and .370 on the year. With Huff gone, it'd be great if we could resign Oscar, but I doubt San Diego is going to let him get away.

the man can rake.

Just a question. Would trading Jones to the Rangers net us Smoak, and Feliz?

Great, pete, the classic "if/then" argument...if I don't agree with wayne, then I must be bitter...that's funny...

What's funnier is you thinking that anyone here is of enough importance for me to care whether they follow what wayne has to say or not...hilarious...

the bottom line is for me, wayne and others say things where the orioles are concerned that are so far off base as to be laughable...I hate the performance of the team as much as anyone on here, but that doesn't mean I find it justifiable to make some off the wall commentary the way the likes of wayne do...
and if he dislikes the team so much that he feels the need to make threats abaout not holding onto his tickets, then grow a pair and go all the way with and give them up...otherwise, you're just blowing smoke...

...............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Just want to clarify that I'm not the Pete Keith is talking about.

Pete, It's clear keith works for masn, 1057 or the sun. What else would explain how he can talk so much, yet say so little.

Like I said long ago, Wayne is simply in tune. Much better than the crap we get elsewhere. Not sure which commentary keith refers to. I think most of it is simply above keiths head... i really do!

..............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Why can't you just say you agree with Wayne and disagree with Keith. Is it possible that Keith legitamately disagrees with you and Wayne? How about everybody treating each other with an ounce of respect here. You don't have to be a shill to believe in MacPhail's plan and you don't have to be a totally negative person to be frustrated and disbelieving, though Wayne tries to disprove that occasionally.

Gil,

According to your busness model, there is no professional sports league as we know it. Even the Yankees would have dissolved in the 80's.

I also still think you're whole evil empire plan for fighting the Expos is assinine. The Expos split the 14th largest media market (aka WHERE YOUR MARKETING REVENUE COMES FROM) by moving to DC. If you were Angelos and you decided not to make it the best deal possible for yourself, it's the equivilant of telling Bud Selig "No go ahead and skip the lube and Miller Light, let's just do this thing."

There is no real MASN money because he still has to pay licensing out to the Nats. The Nats actually make money on their MASN deal while not having to do any of the work.

You're grilling him for balking at the Nats deal when it screws you as a fan over too. I know you hate him and that's fine, but the Nats are bad for the Orioles and every Orioles fan. It may have "woken him up," but at what cost for the long term financial health? There was a lot of bad advice going on about how "close" we were by yes men afraid to tell the boss the team is boned. I don't think PA has or has ever had a clue that he needed to be bothered with who was in Bowie until McPhail got here. Definitely all his fault and his ignorance, but I just don't think any owner wants to lose (unless they want to relocate).

Pete S,

Fair enough!

sorry that I can't fall in line to kiss wayne's butt cheeks the way you do, doug...

as for his commentary, well here is Pete's (dead on) reply to one statement of wayne's:

"Pete's reply: Well, Wayne, of course the total payroll has been small the past couple of years, but during the years that Angelos was calling all the shots, it was a lot higher. He did spend a lot of money, just not very well. If you don't like MacPhail's plan, that's fine, but to suggest the reason it's no good is because it hasn't included more of that stupid spending on unproductive players is just insane."

A couple of other comments from wayne:

"Nationally, AM may be respected, but he's not considered anywhere near the top of presidents/gm's in this business. I know that's hard to swallow, but outside baltimore, it's a fact."

#1, that's not a FACT it's your OPINION (don't you love when people confuse the two?). What's more, it doesn't even make sense. Why would he be simultaneously respect nationally and not considered at the top of his profession? What would he be respected for, then? And where's your source of this claim that he is not considered a top GM?

"because they couldn't deal with the lies from the warehouse any longer"

And what lies would these be? There's no doubt the Orioles have been mis-managed, but when exactly did they lie?

To me, this is the kind of thing that diminishes whatever credibility you might have had...

You make things easy keith,

First and respectfully, Pete was incorrect when saying I indicated it's all about spending. Read my post again and you'll see it's not just about money or being like the Yanks.

As for AM, come on Keith... You know the difference between being respected and being considered one of the best, right?

As for the warehouse lies, why don't you have Pete send you some Sun clippings quoting angelos himself. He'll be able to forward you many from the past decade. Then of course there were the lies from his guys....from Sir Sid to you name it.

Or maybe do an interview with Mr Hargrove. He'll be able to give you a little insight. Mike happens to be a good man.... a very good man!

Get some rest Keith. Surely you could use it.

You make things easy keith,

First and respectfully, Pete was incorrect when saying I indicated it's all about spending. Read my post again and you'll see it's not just about money or being like the Yanks.

As for AM, come on Keith... You know the difference between being respected and being considered one of the best, right?

As for the warehouse lies, why don't you have Pete send you some Sun clippings quoting angelos himself. He'll be able to forward you many from the past decade. Then of course there were the lies from his guys....from Sir Sid to you name it.

Or maybe do an interview with Mr Hargrove. He'll be able to give you a little insight. Mike happens to be a good man.... a very good man!

Get some rest Keith. Surely you could use it.

lol! Problem is wayne, instead of reading what you write, keith is trying to think of a clever come back.....

all i can say is - check mate!

Sir syd is long dead, Hargrovei is long gone...why don't make it easy and give me a couple of examples of a lie?

Boy, seems you sure have a lot of butt kissers and jock sniffers on here...checkmate? That's funny...you guys love drinking the wayne kool aid...

why don't you go get your own rest wayne...maybe when you wake up, you might have conjured up something to back up what you claim...

man, was I right! haha

After reading so many posts in which one poster is trashing another, I would love it if Pete, could get DT, to come here and talk about the fundamentals of blogging and about respect towards one another unless you are a fan of Felix, then it's no respect for you!!!!!

Thanks djph, for the kind words and glad to see Anonymous has returned from the future, but a bit sad that he didn't hear about the O's newest promotion: I got thrown out of 4711 Eutaw Street. I think it's great to honor Dave and Juan because 2110, isn't going to work now that Jones is out.

I can only imagine what Juan would say to one of the parents about one of his ill advised school crossings...."You're kid, doesn't belong in the 5th grade so he didn't make it because any REAL 5th grader would have made it."

I heard the Aquarium is showing some interest in Dave for their new "respect the Dolphins" program, but I have concerns, as it's evident that DT, can't handle screaming kids or Jim Hunter crying to Bonnie during a press conference because he bet the rights to Jimmyville that the O's would make it to the ALCS this season. Dave, would have trouble with the kids and maybe the Dolphins because not all Dolphins are able to show the type of versatility that his favorite player does, Wiggy!

I used to read Roch at MASN until the internal battles and personal insults found in the blog's readers/responders took up too much time to read. Please don't let such a fine blog as "The Schmuck Stops Here" get ruined, too. I like differences of opinion, but name calling, personal attacks, and the like just aren't worth the time and space.

James C.

Never said I hated anybody, never use that word to describe people. Sometimes people say things that they cannot take back and I try to avoid that. Never have I posted anything that Pete has taken me to the woodshed for.

I always try put fourth a pragmatic and logical argument that is not emotion based.

Peter Angelos would not be making the moves today to rebuild, and invest in the team were it not for the National League moving next door and forcing his hand to defend market share.

Yes I distrust the motives the family that owns our baseball team. Until the owner proves that he is committed to a long term winning strategy I will be skeptical. He is not nearly there yet. Exhibit A is 12 losing seasons in a row with 10 of them absolutley thrown away, in my humble opinion. If we see no major free agent acquisitions over this winter, that means Angelos is planning to lose again next year, and I will have my answer,{in my humble opinion}

We just disagree James. It's OK

...............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Did I falsely accuse you of something. If so, I apologize.

Gil,

I am all for agreeing to disagree. I'm just kind of a "be calm, the sky is not falling" type guy. I really wish everyone would enjoy the things that there are to enjoy. If people choose to be negative more often than not, that's ok. At the same time debate is a good thing and I enjoy doing my part to show that the other side is still a -valid and non blind follower/knee pad wearing/putz.

I am wholeheartedly on board with Peter Angelos being why we've been down so long. Between meddling when he shouldn't have and running out the voices strong enough to keep him in check, it was all on him. Even hiring the many GM's who had no right running a franchise. I personally still draw the line at he purposefully tanked it a while. To make the money he had to be making in 96 & 97 and then say "OK let's not do that anymore" seems overthought.

I agree about the 10 years being thrown away too. One year of being "one player away" has been pretty grating. Though it's weird to think what if Loewen, DCab, Penn or Snyder had lived up to what they were supposed to be? You can't just say the scouts are clueless because they are responsible for the guys that are coming up now too (or did I just jinx it).

Anyway, I'm awaiting this offseason as well. I think the biggest addition will be by trade and there may just be a pitcher signed. Position player wise there aren't many must haves and even the names on the pitching side are high risk/high reward. It's a shame last year's class wasn't available this year.

We'll keep riding it out though.

"It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." Peter uses a similar version of this sage advice with which he disagrees along with every poster -- because otherwise it makes for a boring, short-lived blog.

However, some of us are not satisfied with being considered fools; we put extra effort into our posts as if we aspire to a lower level of fooldom: Buffoon Status, Cretin Prince, Baron of Vindictiveness, or to be considered the love-child of Leona Helmsley and Rush Limbaugh.

Forgive me; I'm having way too much fun.

For those who would tune-in to listen to Wayne's World, there is no reason to reinvent the wheel.

You will find kindred spirits on Troll Radio, 107.5 AM, 6:00 - 10:00 each weekday morning. The head guy claims to be a passionate Orioles fan, but demeans everything the Orioles do.

Most local posters, if not devoted listeners, are aware of this station and its one editorial mission -- DAMN THE TRUTH, MERCILESSLY HOUND PETER ANGELOS!

The head guy reminds me of Peter Griffin when he bloviates about the O's; but, in fairness, I am compelled to say that he clearly knows a great deal about the Ravens, golf, soccer, and ice hockey.

Yes , I do listen; I am under contract to the FCC to determine if a type of fairness doctrine is needed to reign-in local sports radio.

Wayne,

Jack is full of jack.... I'd listen to you because while yes, you tend to be negative.... you nevertheless are fair with your points. In other words, you don't come across as being neg just to be neg, like many others. You're refreshing from what we usually get. For what it's worth.

James C.,

I agree with everything you just said.

I have said many times over that I support the Macphail rebuilding efforts, so far he is doing all of the right things.

I just don't think that the plan should be open ended as far as when results should begin to show in the "W" column. Rebuilding without the infusion of proven talent may never work.

I just think that the Orioles can afford to put a competitive team on the field next year.

But you are certainly a voice of reason, and I mean that sincerely.