Why keep changing relievers? Leave the hot hand in until he falters if he is getting people out --For petes sake 2 or 3 innings isn't going to kill a relief pitcher not 100 pitches ya know since THIS is the unofficial barrier! Jim Johnson could have pitched 4 or 5 innings! To much excessive tweaking & tinkering for my tastes! Trembley must go!

..............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Sorry Fritz, but burning up your best reliever in a meaningless game would be managerial malpractice beyond anything you've previously imagined. Get off the ledge.

Chalk up another moral victory for the birds… zzz zzzzzz zzzzzzz

Guthrie has lost his starting job in my opinion calling him our ace is laughable. Give his innings to our youngsters to help them gain experience and put Guthrie in the bullpen until he relearns to keep his pitches down and in the ballpark!

Put Guthrie in the pen and start the next rookie wave of pitchers in the pen also we need to fix this mess. With Albers and Bass no amount of runs is good enough

Nats are 6 games back!

Oh well who cares the Orioles suck. At least the Rangers are ahead of the Red Sox in the wild card lol

Are the O's baseball team or....a football team?

sorry , i needed to laugh off the shocking 13th inning .

This game was disturbing all around.

Go Ravens!!

Maybe time to give Miller a shot up here. Albers looks like batting practice, and is keeping Bass around that critical?

PETE...what was that? I thought the RAVENS played on Thursday Night? Baseball comes down to 3 things:
1.) Pitching
2.) Pitching
&
More Pitching....we ain't got it yet...
p.s. Keep wearing those wild shirts.. I love em!!

You're damned right it should. But here's the question, and it's for the ghosts of Harry Brecheen, George Bamberger, et al: Last year, Guthrie threw 91-92 mph fastballs with a lot of movement and was extremely successful. This year, by comparison, it is reported that his heater usually is recorded at 95-96 mph and, as we all can see, has little, if any movement. As a result, he leads the AL in home runs allowed and he has been woeful in holding onto leads, with his offerings quite often being blasted by the opposition. Now, if a sinkerball pitcher has too much rest between starts, he usually is too strong and tends to overthrow. The result? His pitches are up in the zone and he gets hammered. The remedy? Keep him on his throwing schedule and have him throw extra on the side between starts in order to work that tendency to overthrow out of his performance. So, why not the same kind of regimen for Guthrie? If he threw more on the side and between starts, would the result be a loss of 3-4 mph off his fastball and a return of the movement we saw last year? I certainly don't know, but it makes one wonder when nothing else seems to have worked.

Guthrie will not be in our starting rotation next year... mark my words.

The guy is either hurt, or he is just plain awful. Either way, he won't be around.

Pete
I believe Matt Alberts is overused.
I didnt see the game today. My feel that Trem is babying these starters. Young or not. These are young men with adrenalin.
BTW Guth is not real good. He is not the same pitcher as we saw last year. What is wrong?

I don't understand why they sent down Mikolio instead of Albers. Albers has been terrible.

You would have thought after the Angels embarrassed them with a nine spot in the top of the thirteenth that the Orioles would have come out in the bottom of the inning looking for a little pay back. Instead 3 straight hitters took called third strikes. Who were they facing Walter Johnson? Where was their pride?

Why was Guthrie left in after the double in the sixth inning, after already giving up six runs? More Trembley respect for veteran?

O's were 2 for 9 w/ RISP, with some terrible, impatient at-bats, after 1 for 9 yesterday. Still not forcing pitchers to throw strikes to get outs in those situations.

How many different ways can the Orioles lose a game?

Answer: Many more than any other team.

4th overall pick in this years draft, not an improvment over last years pick, or the year before, the one before that and so on.

Nats, K.C., and AAA Pittsburgh overtake the O's in the last month and a half and this season will have been alot to do about nothing.

All the Orioles need is pitching, runners who understand how to run the bases, pitching, a decent manager, and pitching. Then, just maybe, they can over take Toronto. Not! Oh, did I mention they desperately need pitching?

Anybody see Zaun get the pie in the face today? He seems very happy to be on a winner and have facial hair...

Albers and Bass are not great to begin with but its not all their fault they have been way overused this season from the bad starting pitching staff at the start of the season. None of those jokers could make it past the 5th or 6th and many times Bass and Albers had to come in and play garbage man after the SPs totally got bombed out of the game early in the 2nd and 3rd innings. So of course they are burned out by now. I think they can both still be serviceable middle relievers but we need to do something about the 7th 8th and 9th. The Texas Rangers have 3 guys that can throw high 90s one even 100 and they can interchange them if needed. O’s need to use them as an example.

Terry, the phrase is "much ado about nothing," not "alot (which isn't a word) to do about nothing." I will stop policing grammar and correcting mistakes when people stop being such dunderheads.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure that just about everybody that knows anything about this team knew that we were doomed when Bass came in. But did what other options did Trembley have? Albers? Eeeeeeeeek. That's like "is gasoline or lighter fluid going to feel better if used as aftershave?" I'm glad I'm not making those decisions.

The Orioles should lose major league status. Quittsberg and Lositmore should be penalized for not trying as hard as other teams. The players, front office and ownership need to have some kind of reinforcement to play to win and be accountable because something is fishy is going on here. Disgraceful baseball coming from Baltimore I feel sorry for the poor suckers that still support this garbage dump.

Terry, please don't make fun of me for the extra "did" in that one sentence. I will never make fun of anyone's punctuation again... or at least I'll be more careful when doing so.

Today (and many of the games since the break) just reinforces to me that the most important thing to do this off-season is address the bullpen. We can probably do this just as well with the kids and Uehara (and maybe Guthrie, Berken or someone I'm not thinking of) as through free agency, but it must be a priority. With the exception of Johnson and Ray, the present relievers are garbage. How many games have they lost us? How overworked can they REALLY be? I don't see it.

But did what other options did Trembley have?

Really? Really HockeyStartsInTwoMonths are you really policing grammar on here LOL

Dont be a jerk this is just a blog

Fidel Angelos must go!!!

If the Nats can sign Strasberg and another FA pitcher they are a better all around team than the O’s. Also keep in mind that their rebuilding plan was done in a season when the GM resigned amidst controversy and had a horrible roster and manager at the start of the season. The Nats can sign free agents and are humble enough to apologize to the fans and acknowledge mistakes. Most of their moves have resulted in making the team better and was done to make up for the earlier downfall. Long term plans are in place with the O’s because Angelos wants to be apart of everything and its killing us. Any team will be better in the AL East because they have front offices that are proactive and work right.

yeah eight should be enough--for a normal contending team---c'mon Pete--think harder---pandering to the extremists should be above all of us--but especially you, since you're getting paid...paul---i'll mark your words all right--Guthrie will be there...too bad you're not our manager, so you could deplete the entire farm system because someone threw one outside and low---jack@$$...altho I'm no DT fan

Was in NJ and caught the scores on the bottom of ESPN. Kudos to the team for knotting the score at 8 at the end of regulation. Hope of Hopes to think they might have won in extra innings, but the dark side of my brain was anticipating that Baez would be the loser of this one. At least it was another RP this time. Wondering if DT gave Mike Scosia the same dirty looks today when his team ran up the score today?

Ted, I was joking. Please stop policing my humor.

McPhail has done a great job so far. I understand the tendency to compare the Os to the Nats, but honestly, we should be happy that AM gets any leeway at all with moves and signings. Angelos has given him unprecedented freedom, which is progress at least. I believe that next year will be the real proving ground, or whatever, for Andy's effectiveness. And if he continues to improve the team in tangible ways that will reap long-term rewards, then he is doing his job, and hopefully Angelos takes notice and backs off even further.

"The Orioles should lose major league status. Quittsberg and Lositmore should be penalized for not trying as hard as other teams. The players, front office and ownership need to have some kind of reinforcement to play to win and be accountable because something is fishy is going on here. Disgraceful baseball coming from Baltimore I feel sorry for the poor suckers that still support this garbage dump."

Seriously? Go away. Far.

Birth Name: David Allen Johnson Birth Place: Orlando, FL Date of Birth / Zodiac Sign: 01/30/1943, Aquarius Profession: Baseball Player, Baseball Manager User Rating: (1 ratings) Add Your Rating: Davey Johnson Fast Facts: •Played baseball for the Baltimore Orioles (1965-72), the Atlanta Braves (1973-75), the Philadelphia Phillies (1977-78) and the Chicago Cubs (1978). •Only man to have been a teammate of both Hank Aaron and Sadaharu Oh. •Managed the New York Mets (1984-90), the Cincinnati Reds (1993-95), the Baltimore Orioles (1996-97) and the Los Angeles Dodgers (1999-2000). •Was a four-time All-Star, from 1968 to '70 and in 1973. •Was a Gold Glove winner three times, from 1969 to '71. •His Mets won the World Series in 1986. •Has a pilot's license and a real-estate license. •Received an honorary degree from Loyola University in 1996. •Became manager of USA Baseball in 2005. Davey Johnson Relationships: •Andrea Lyn - Daughter •David Johnson Jr. - Son •Dawn - Daughter •Mary Nan - Ex-wife •Susan Allen Johnson - Wife College: •Attended Texas A&M University, College Station, TX; attended Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD; Trinity University, San Antonio, TX (BS in Mathematics)
8/16/2009 9:34:14 PM

I found an interesting stat today, if anyone is interested and makes it this far past all the above bickering.....

Do you remember how we were hoping to sign free-agent pitcher Braden Looper over the off-season? Well, I figured I would check his stats to see if he would have helped us at all... Would anyone like to guess who leads the National League in Home Runs allowed with 29 so far, 2 more than Guthrie?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/HR_p_leagues.shtml

HA!

We have been duped by McPhail, Kranitz and more importantly, Mike Flanagan. There is no pitching coming, Weiters is a light-weight, Huff and Mora are through............. NO MORE FOR ME !

Guthrie needs to admit his faults and go down for some tuning in AAA. This can't go on, we know how good he can be when he's in the zone.

Could this be the day? Have we finally heard the last of Ed Miller Port St. Lucie's threats? Will he finally go away for good? Will he lavish all of the attention formerly paid to trashing the Orioles upon the strippers of nearby West Palm Beach? So many questions!

HockeyStartsInTwoMonths writes:

McPhail has done a great job so far. I understand the tendency to compare the Os to the Nats, but honestly, we should be happy that AM gets any leeway at all with moves and signings. Angelos has given him unprecedented freedom, which is progress at least. I believe that next year will be the real proving ground, or whatever, for Andy's effectiveness. And if he continues to improve the team in tangible ways that will reap long-term rewards, then he is doing his job, and hopefully Angelos takes notice and backs off even further.

What is so "unprecedented" about a GM having control over personnel? It's amazing how that is something to mention as a feather in this team's cap.

McPhail has made alot of moves. How in the world people can say he's done a "great job" when the team is awful yet again is amazing.

And before you or someone else starts with the "rebuilding plan" and "be patient" stuff, spare me. I'm well aware of everything that is going on with this team. The fact of the matter is McPhail is making moves. Many of those moves cannot be judged yet. However, that means for the good or the bad.

This team is SO FAR away from .500 it's not even funny.

If people think it's gonna happen next year, they are nuts.

You really have to compare the O’s and Nats because they are both the local and losing teams of the league. The Nats have the clear advantage because…….. they……… don’t………… have a Peter Anglos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They can get things done like trading Nick Johnson, Lastings M, Hammered man etc etc. I know its hindsight but the club needed to trade Huff and Scott when they could have.

Yes load up the wagon. Wieters should be hitting 5 Homers a week, The young pitchers should win every start.

Looper is 10 and 6, I would love to have that here.

Let''s just hope that things will improve and next year they will sign the right type of players to help make the club competitive.

Mark, I apologize for my lack of clarification. I am not happy with where the team is, by any stretch, and am not an eternal optimist when it comes to Andy McPhail or the Baltimore Orioles.

Now that we've cleared the air, we can focus on your piss poor reading comprehension skills, which clearly do not include the ability to infer meaning from a sentence. Actually, I really don't think that an inference was necessary. It is unprecedented (should I have put that in quotations... no, you're cooler) for Angelos to give his GM ANY control over the team at all, so yes, it is progress that he let's AM operate as freely as he does. Unprecedented for the Orioles under Angelos, not for the entire entity of Major League Baseball. Next time I will draw you a picture.

And if you are so miserable (which you clearly are), maybe you should spare me and everyone around you the toxicity of your presence and join Ed Miller in lovely PSL, Florida. Maybe you guys can cheer each other up. Thanks!

"The Orioles should lose major league status. Quittsberg and Lositmore should be penalized for not trying as hard as other teams. The players, front office and ownership need to have some kind of reinforcement to play to win and be accountable because something is fishy is going on here. Disgraceful baseball coming from Baltimore I feel sorry for the poor suckers that still support this garbage dump."

I don’t like how this post comes off but it does raise a far point. Something has to be done to pry crazy owners away from MLB teams!! Competency hearings for 100 loss seasons. 12 years of losing seasons grants you assistance from MLB for your owner to take courses and meds to distract the owner while the GM can make moves and save the team lol.

cb coach

Putting your hope in the Orioles is like putting your hope into a stripper, playing Russian roulette or investing with Lenny Dykstra. All Angelos does is take weak yokels money that have faith.

I think we should just go to the way Little League does it. Your ace starts every other game just about and plays the field the rest of the time. Forget about extending a guy 4-5 innings, let's really max em out here.

I disagree Smitty. Young guys with adrenaline turn into young guys on the DL when the adrenaline wears off. Every team limits what rookie starters are allowed to do. They've all seen too much talent go to waste early in their careers and it's not worth it. Imagine a healthy Adam Loewen pitching on this team.

Yes Donald you're right. I mean they were facing a pitcher who was touched up the night before and probably wanted to show something too, but you're right. Bunch of deadbeats.

I'm surprised no one is criticizing the Orioles for Markakis probably being tired from doing his charity event in the morning at Patterson Park. Plus BRob probably struck out just so he could get to the ESPN Zone on time for his charity event tonight. I expect some outside the box complaining from now on. Let's finish up strong this year!

Is Mike Flanagan still with the Orioles? I heard he left in 2008 but many people seem to think he is behind the scenes like a bad version of Michael Clayton hahahahah.

It is imperative that the Orioles shut down Guthrie for the rest of the season. I have developed shoulder fatigue from throwing the remote at the tv whenever he pitches.

Also now that the Mets dl'd Wright and he may be out the rest of the season, do they have any interest in Melvin Mora?

the yankees and red sox (and MLB) are killing the game by driving up payrolls. is it really considered a sport for the yankees to compete against everyone else after they sign the top 3 FAs in the offseason! holycrap do i despise the yankees, their fans and all they stand for.

I like Guthrie, but he's lost it.

Second time this year we've ponied up major runs for him and he's blown it (ie: the blown 7-0 lead in Boston).

He may be valuable as our number 5 guy next year in less-pressure situations, but this team definitely needs a number one guy via FA. If not, I see Bergesen as having the best mental makeup to be our ace next year (though Matusz and Tillman seem to be mentally strong as well, in spite of poor performances).

I think baseball does need to implement a system to prevent cities from being held captive by bad owners. Call it the Angelos rule call it whatever. I understand the guy purchased the team and can do what he wants with it but he has done nothing right as owner and continues to get worse each year.

cb coach:

I agree, I'd love to have his 10-6 record. But on a team with our kind of run support, and playing in the AL East, no way would he be at 10-6. His ERA is a sliver under 5, and many other stats are very close to Guthrie's (WHIP, BB/9, Hits/9, K/9). I think he'd probably have a similar record as Guts if he were pitching here.

Oddly enough, they both score 85 on that ERA+ stat where they compare the pitchers' ERA to the league average, normalized for the parks they play in. Both of them are 15% below what you'd expect from an Average pitcher. In comparison, Guthrie was 125 in his past 2 seasons. Let's hope he can regain that form next year, pitchers often have bad years and bounce back. (Trying hard to be optimistic here...)

If the Orioles team is ranked 26th in Major League Baseball salary where is the money going to? The teams below us in payroll are Oakland, Florida and SD. They all have better records than the Orioles. The only team we are better than with a lower payroll is the Pittsburgh Pirates and only by 2 games. I am not going to act like I know how much money the Orioles are saving and how much MASN makes from having both the Orioles and Nationals but in the AL East you get what you pay for and this team seems to be to focused on not paying anything.

Pete,

How could you say the final score was irrelevant? Would you say that the score in the Texas Massacre 30-3 was irrelevant?

Yes it is a loss whether you lose 9-8 or 17-8, but you can't downplay giving up 9 runs in the 13 inning. I don't care whether the Orioles lose. I do care about how they lose. They keep redefining losing. If there is another way to lose, wait a couple of games and the O's would find it.

By the way. Was this some kind of new record for runs given up in the 13th inning?

...............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Now that you bring it up, I think the 30-3 score was relevant because it was truly off the charts -- the biggest blowout in more than 100 years. That stands on its own merits, though it counts in the standings the same as a 2-1 game. What I meant today was that it didn't matter whether they lost 10-8 in the 13th or 17-8, and I believe that's true, unless there is some value in wallowing in the supposed embarrassment of it all.

PS

Pittsburghs salary is 25,197,000 and the Orioles are 61,885,566 and again we are 2 games better than the Pirates. Most small market teams operate in 60s- 80s. Tampa is an example of what we want to be at
68,230,934 and with a record of 63- 54

There you have it:

According to MLB, "The nine runs scored in the final frame tied an American League record for runs scored in the 13th inning, set in 1933 by Cleveland in the first game of a doubleheader against Detroit. The Major League record for runs in any extra inning is 12, set by the Rangers against the A's in Oakland on on July 3, 1983."

Glad to help the Angels and any other teams out there cement themselves into baseball record books.

Note to O's opponents fans: Never miss a game against the O's. Your team could be making history. The O's guaranty it.

Re: Pete's first reply,

"burning up your best reliever in a meaningless game"

I agree 100% with the first part, but no game is meaningless. Not to me, not to all those O's fans in the seats either. Especially the kid at his first ever game. Yeah, you there was at least one.

We need some pride.

.............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Obviously, there is no such thing as a truly meaningless anything. Everything has some meaning to someone, except maybe that bounty hunter show on cable. But in the context of risking an arm to win yesterday, it was not a meaningful enough game.

"Pete's reply: Sorry Fritz, but burning up your best reliever in a meaningless game would be managerial malpractice beyond anything you've previously imagined. Get off the ledge."

They are ALL meaningless games Pete!

Trembley said himself in an interview that u;timately its the players have to produce on the field but ehrn they have things like baserunning blunders the responsibility is the managers.

I know Trembley isnt going out there trying to lose games but things he does isnt winning them either. It doesnt seem that he holds the players accountable when they make those "mental" mistakes. Like B-robs blunder thinking it was 2 outs the other night. I love Brian but he should have been taken out of the game and benched the next day. But as many times as the Orioles have meesed up on the bases this year he would be benching someone on a daily basis. Also it seems like teams are stealing against us at will. But take todays game for example. Alot of times you can use the he stole the base on a pitcher on the pitcher excuse. But today it was 3 different pitchers and 2 different catchers.

The Orioles are 8-21 since the all star break and like dave said himself the teams performance is his responsibility and he is at the end of his rope. And you can start the" well you would you have manage" come back, but at this point a wheel of cheese could do the job that Trembley is doing.

Mr. Schmuck:
I read your column and it was spot on.
Well done and thanks for your insight.
Unlike your other "fans" I'm not going to
bash either the manager or the GM or even
the owner. But I will say this: clutch hitting
seems to be a problem. The kids haven't
learned yet and the vets seem to have lost
their way. Only time will tell.
I know I've said this before: if all you "fans"
want instant gratification-- use the bathroom.
One last comment--If Guthrie doesn't make adjustments he will most likely pitch himself out of the rotation.

First off Guthrie needs to be out of the rotation. It's the same thing different day with him.
Trembley is an incredibly bad manager and to continue to keep Guthrie in the game when it was obvious that he had nothing to shut down the Angels is further prove of that.
Matt Albers needs to be pitching in Norfolk possibly Bass too, but he's out of options. The team needs a major overhaul of the bullpen. Perhaps next year they will have Johnson, Uehara, the lefty from Bowie, who is currently out for the year, Perez I believe is his name and possibly Ray in the pen but beyond that who knows?
Bill Frederick, I'm sorry, but you're almost as bad as Trembley. But at least you are trying to use stats as a guide, something Trembley needs to do. But the point is, a few of the other bloggers and Pete hit it directly on the head that just about every other manager in the league would bunt with Chad M. coming up to the plate late in the game with a runner on second and no outs. Moeller is a bad hitter this year, he has never really been a good hitter his whole career. He was struggling down in Norfolk and at best he has a 20% chance of getting a hit. In that situation you bunt, and hope to manufacture a run.
It's always great to manufacture a run. Bunting is a necessary part of the game. It's something Trembley never really has understood. When you have weak hitters coming up in these situations, you have to think Moeller is probably not going to get a hit but at least let's make his at bat productive and increase the team's chances of tacking on another run.

Wow! Pete

I dont know which is more pathetic, the Orioles or the generation of lost fans who have been left dumbed and numbed by more than a decade of futility.

If only today was really the low point.

I hate to go against the flow here (okay, I don't hate it), but my son and I were at the game and but for the 13th inning, the O's put on a pretty good show. Great play by Jones to rob the grand slam, timely DPs in extra innings, three homers, battling back from deficits...even Guthrie's awful stats fail to show that he gave them 5-2/3 innings and a lot of pitches on a brutally hot day. A win (in Jones' 9th inning fly ball had 5 more feet) and everyone would have celebrated yesterday's great effort.

The Orioles amount of spending is fine its what they are spending it on that disturbs me!

I have to raise some concern about Kranitz with respect to Guthrie. Guthrie actually has pitched pretty well this season, as long as Zaun was catching him. That would seem to prove that he does indeed have the tools he needs to win, but for some reason is unable to make it work with Weiters behind the plate. What is Kranitz doing to remedy this? Hard to believe that he'd be changing his delivery from one catcher to the other, but obviously something is out of whack. I guess I don't understand why, with video of every pitch, that they can't figure out why he pitched so much better with Zaun, and make the required adjustments. Is this rocket science?

If Berken had the outing(s) of Guthrie everyone would be talking about sending him down, he's in neutral (Dave Trembley), etc. Over his last ten starts he is probably the worst starter we have. But, he keeps getting aent out every five days. Definitely time for a change.

Guthrie has earned a spot in the bullpen and Albers and Bass have earned tickets to Norfolk or the waiver wire.

Bring up Andy Mitchell to replace Guthrie, Mickolio and Guthrie to the pen.

If the 2010 season started tomorrow and Guthrie was out of the starting rotation, would the Orioles "ace" be Bergesen with 7 career victories? The last time the Orioles started a season with a No. 1 starter without 20 career victories was. . . this year.

Yes Guthrie has endured a poor season. So has Mussina, McNally, Palmer, McGregor, Flanagan, and any other superb pitcher you care to name. Maybe he needs to spend a little quality bullpen time to get his form back, but the suggestions to simply jettison him are ridiculous. He has proven that he can pitch well in the Major Leagues, and any possible replacement would be a major step down. Keep your chin up, Jeremy!

Yes Guthrie has endured a poor season. So has Mussina, McNally, Palmer, McGregor, Flanagan, and any other superb pitcher you care to name. Maybe he needs to spend a little quality bullpen time to get his form back, but the suggestions to simply jettison him are ridiculous. He has proven that he can pitch well in the Major Leagues, and any possible replacement would be a major step down. Keep your chin up, Jeremy!

My vote: lets start sandbagging to get strausburg next season and pay him whatever he wants!

Dear Hockeystarts: Yeah, I'm gone, but loved your use of the word "awful" and "far away from .500" when referring to your beloved Birds. Just remember, people are paying big bucks to watch this garbage and are being kept on the hook with the annual "Wait 'til next year". I'm done waiting!

Talking of pride in everything we do as you post as Anonymous. Awesome!