I'm amazed at how many ways the O's can find to lose games. Usually it's terrible starting pitching, but baserunning blunders, poor middle relief, managerial decisions, and atrocious timely hitting have been problems most of the season. I expect another 90-plus loss season in 2010.

fire trembley

The real AM plan is to wait out till Angelos sells the team or…

When I saw Pie's chop off the plate take a reverse spin away from the pitcher to set up bases loaded with no one out, well it looked liked a good break would open things up.

Still waiting for that to happen.

Pete--The Birds won on Earl Weaver's birthday (August 14th). I'm hoping they can win tonight and help me celebrate my birthday.

The way this team finds to lose games is simply amazing.By the way how is that new look offense going without Huff,Zaun,who was just heating up,and Oscar Salazar who was your only option off the bench?Trading Huff was just a way for McPhail to get his boy,Felix(once in a lifetime game)Oie into the lineup on a consistent basis and rotate Wigginton and Scott at first base so we can get the number one pick.Let's see McPhail said another August collapse would not be acceptable earlier this year.Are we there yet and how much does anybody bet he changes his mind?I don't know what's worse,Angelos running the team,or dying and his sons running the team.Could it get any worse?

Speaking of the Angelos sons:

(I've had several interactions with them)
The one with the mini-ponytail, John I believe, is a real d-bag. The younger one, I forget his name, seems genuinely OK.

death. taxes. Pirates under .500, and O's under .500.

Now for some real analysis... I like the raw ability I see from Tillman. If there is one thing I would change about him, it would be his fastball. Yes he has the velocity, but that thing does NOT MOVE.

Figure out a way for Tillman to get some side-to-side and/or downward movement on that fastball (even if it means sacrificing a few mph), and the guy could be Roy Halladay. His hook is amazing, and his changeup looks legit...

get some movement on that fastball!

Pete, I always felt that when you lose the close games like the O's are doing this year, it's the next year when those 1-2 run loses, turn into wins. Watching them play the Angels and Rays, shows that the core of this team that includes Markakis, Roberts, Jones, Reimold and Wieters, is much better than past years. Last year, Huff, had the career year and Mora, had one of the most amazing 2nd half performances that I've ever seen, but neither of those guys are young players so it doesn't take much to see there are more positive pieces in play.

I know al lot of fans (rightfully so) think that next year will be another wasted year, but I will go on record now and say that I will be shocked if Andy, doesn't fill at least 2 out of 3 of their biggest offensive needs in a legit 1B, 3B and DH. I think the situation with Rios, could help the O's because there will be more teams looking to do a straight salary dump and if that guy, turns out to be a 1B, 3B or DH, the O's could score big time.

Since no one has given Matt, any props, for throwing out Crawford on Tuesday when Evan was in his face and then, throwing out Pena when it looked like ball four, I will. If fans can trash these kids, how about some praise when they do something well?

I have family in FL, who watched the game on the MLB package and Kevin Kennedy (Rays color man) said that Matt Wieters, is ahead of Pudge in terms of calling a game. He managed Pudge in his rookie year in Texas and said that while Pudge, had the offense right away, he wasn't good at calling a game in his 1st year even though Texas had a veteran staff. Bottom line, he was impressed with Matt's ability to call a game for 21 and 24 year pitchers.

Though I must clarify in my assessment of the Angelos sons, I was speaking of a purely social interaction.

In all honesty, older son John does have more brains.

I sure hope all the lame O's bashers (especially KyleProBoller aka slugger aka anonymous) out there took note of the graphic shown on MASN last night showing the early season pitching records put in by Tom Glavine, Greg Maddox, John Smoltz, et al. Also the usual "fire trembley" comments by the same person mentioned above, no doubt you would have been the first asking for Joe Maddon's head in Tampa Bay too. Bottom line, which you always forget: No one, absolutely no one picked the Orioles to finish anywhere but fifth place this season. HIre Bobby Valentine? fact of the matter is, has won NOTHING outside of Japan. Earl Weaver wouldn't win with this current crop of players. Remember Weaver's last couple years? What did he do? ZIP...NADA...another fact of the matter is, his last "comeback" year, he wanted out before the season was over. Yep...it's Trembley's fault that the team can't hit in the clutch, and yep it's Trembley's fault that Bartlett was able to knock down Izturis' liner, and BRob bounced into a double play. Yep....it's all Trembley's fault. Idiots.

Factoid--
I have to disagree that Earl Weaver did nothing his last couple of years.I don't count the "comeback years" they were a joke. His last 4 seasons the 1st time around were

1979 102 - 57
1980 100 - 62
1981 59 - 46
1982 94 - 68

That's a combined 355 -233.If that's ZIP--NADA I say ZIP-NADA looks pretty good.

I surely hope when the Orioles are winning many games in a couple of years all the naysayers can swallow there egoes. This team is headed in the right direction. The pitching is going to be OK. A couple of pieces (1B, 3B and DH) and they will be in good shape. When you look at the Yankees core: it is aging. When you look at the Red Sox core: it is aging. We are the team that will be in the right direction. Back in the early 80's we were basically that team. In the 90's we were the Yankees and Red Sox (the damn yankee fan stole our WS chance though).

We are headed in the right direction...Just don't jump on the wagon after trashing the team. Without understanding what the team is building, don't criticize. It is sort of like building a house. If you don't know how to do it, stay out of the way and don't put your 2 cents in.

BETTER TIMES ARE COMING!!! and it will be fun to watch.

Let's GO O's.

I've got to believe that the HR's by the young guys will get straightened out.

Thank goodness we're not reliving that walk thing like years past.

I think that this is the first time I have indicated that it is time for Trembley to go. The team simply needed to do something to avert another 60 day end of season disaster. But, we didn't. Ending a season 30 or more games behind the winner is embarassing. Somebody has to go under the bus and it may as well start with the manager!

I am always wary of management people that come into a position ,like MacPhail,and talk about a "5 year plan" .He's the master of low expectations,buying himself time until a better job opens up for him (commissioner?)In the meanwhile the O's are disgraceful,24 games below .500.The real winners,like Pat Gillick,had the instinct,and baseball connections to make it happen. MacPhail keeps up the smokesceen of "progress",while the MASN propaganda machine talks about how wonderful the future will be. History will show the failure associated with MacPhail's years with the Orioles

Paul,
Macphail has NEVER EVER mentioned anything about a 5 year plan. If you can find that quote,.
If you don't see the talent here and in the minor leagues, then you are in the midst of more than a smokescreen, you are in a thick fog

factoid,
Has Joe Maddon ever intentionally walked someone to get to Vladamir?
Of course managers don't effect the outcomes of many games in baseball, but if you think Trembley has done a really good job with pitching changes and in game management that would make you an........no, that wouldn't be nice.....you know the word you used to call others out....rhymes with bidiot.

Interesting comments about Pat Gillick and I would agree that he did a wonderful job. Oh but lets see here. When he became the general manager at Toronto it took him fiv years before they had a winning record.
Folks tend to forget that when Andy McPhail came in two years ago the farm system was considered one of the worst in baseball. There was little presence in Latin America and none in Asia, but yet the expectation is in two years we were going to be what? A winning team.
Unless you do like the Yankees and spend half a billion dollars there are no quick turn arounds especially for an organization that was left to rot for a decade.
And yes Pat Gillick did take over a Toronto team that was into its third year removed from expansion, but do you think the O's were any better than that two years ago when Andy took over.

Interesting comments about Pat Gillick and I would agree that he did a wonderful job. Oh but lets see here. When he became the general manager at Toronto it took him fiv years before they had a winning record.
Folks tend to forget that when Andy McPhail came in two years ago the farm system was considered one of the worst in baseball. There was little presence in Latin America and none in Asia, but yet the expectation is in two years we were going to be what? A winning team.
Unless you do like the Yankees and spend half a billion dollars there are no quick turn arounds especially for an organization that was left to rot for a decade.
And yes Pat Gillick did take over a Toronto team that was into its third year removed from expansion, but do you think the O's were any better than that two years ago when Andy took over.

I thought Tillman was impressive, but I think MLB hitters are just going to sit on his fastball. It's ok when he spots it well, but he really could benefit from a 4th pitch that looks like his fastball, but isn't, such as a split-fingered fastball or a hard slider. This will make his straight fastball far more effective, and will lead to more strike outs. For a 21-year old, he's not missing much!

A young pitcher holding a team to three runs should be enough to win. I think the young pitchers will do fine, but what this team is lacking is timely hitting and long balls with runners on base. Until that happens, expect to continue losing.

Tillman will be fine once he learns to locate his first pitch fastball low and on the outside corner. Jim Palmer should work with him on that.

Good teams find ways to win, bad teams find ways to lose.

Just another loss on the way to 100. Ho Hum, it's a 5 year plan so let's be blissful and look forward to 2012.

Meanwhile I stick my finger down my throat when I watch this team play.

Pete,

I noted that in the earlier thread you said that you thought that Turner was coming up in September. I don't believe he's on the forty man roster. Do you think they'll take someone off the forty-man roster to put him on and who do you think that may be?

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Pete's reply: Yes, I think you'll see him up here, but I'm speculating based on things I've heard. I don't know for sure.

The talk of finding ways not to score is bad luck or some other cosmic vodoo is ridiculous. The O's don't score because they don't have the bats to score runs. They are below average in OPS, OPS+, etc. They are not going to "break open" games with players like Mora, Scott, Izturis, Pie, Wigginton, Wieters (who needs time to come around), etc. Huff was also a part of that group. The "bad luck" is a result of too many mediocre or poor hitters. Be prepared for more of the same in 2010 unless the O's actually get some bats.

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Pete's reply: You're correct, but I was just refering to that one instance. The reason that one instance stands out so clearly is because there weren't a lot of other instances where the Orioles could have taken control. If you only have one or two big chances a game, you're not going to win very often.

Amid all the clammor and din I've resisted joining the chorus but I've come over to the dark side: the Orioles should terminate Trembley now. I don't have a huge issue with his game management or his handling of the pitchers, as many others do. And I think any manager would struggle with the gaps in this team.
He should be fired now for no other reason than to send a message to the team that "losing is unacceptable". I want a new manager for the last month to inject energy and fresh motivation into these young guys as they head into the offseason. They are finding ways to lose, they've lost their edge, their intensity, their competative fire. They may still lose just as many as they would under Trembley, but a new skipper is going to be an obvious symbol that it's not ok to meekly close out the season. I think this is a critical message for the young players to know going into next season.

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Pete's reply: Maybe, but I'm not sure that's a very clear message. You're telling the young players that if they or the veteran players don't do their jobs, we're going to blame somebody else for that.

This year was more interesting than years' past, until the last few weeks which looks like every other O's season since 1998. Looking forward to next year. I really, really think the O's should spend some money to fill some gaps to at least get respectable and not be a laughingstock next year. Luke Scott for first base? Go get a first baseman for crying out loud! Buy the bats, Andy, buy the bats. This is not an expansion franchise, this is the Orioles!

Luke Scott is a great guy and a dangerous hitter when hot, but does anyone really think he can play first base? It's only a matter of time before the errors and other miscues come in bunches.

Giving him a tryout at first base like this can only result in hanging a few unnecessary losses on the young pitchers. Also it prevents a guy like Aubrey from showing what he can do.

Anyone who can't see the mismanagement here must be following a different team, sorry.

Rick and all,

So you fire the manager because he does not have the talented experienced players to win yet? Interesting thought, but really if Trembley was with the Yankees, he would probably be up for manager of the year. You cannot damn somebody for not having really great proven players with a payroll 300% higher than yours. Now if he was the one that picked the players that are here, then fire him. The Orioles had one of two directions they needed to go before 2008. either spend money on big free agents and attack the problem with cash, or build within and suffer in losses for a few years. They decided to attack with youth, and that equals struggles. I have to admit in seems like Maddon would be a fun guy to play for, but before the 2008 season he lost 197 games in the previous two seasons. They let their younger players get experience and added a few veterans to the mix to help them turn the losses into wins. Who knows maybe in 2011 that could happen to the Orioles.

Every year the baseball season ends in June for me. I love me the O's but there's too much to do to get tangled up in following a team with abysmal pitching. It's a broken record that will continue until a serious effort is made to bring in quality starters.

Pete:
If the O's players are smart? They all would go in the video room and watch their at bats and how Zaun got them out. It's gotten to the point where I'm calling the pitch to get them out.
Also, Weiters has all the tools but doesn't know how to call a game in the Show. It would work in the minors but not up here. Again, Zaun, tipped the Rays on what he would be calling for Tillman to get ahead. It's wasn't no mystery why 3 different batters hit the first pitch fastball for a homerun.
Last, I'm tired of hearing players and DT talk about how much the team didn't give up and were in the game. IT'S TIME FOR SOMEONE TO SAY, "WELL, WE FOUGHT HARD AND CAME UP SHORT -- BUT I'M TRIED OF LOSING."
I'm waiting for that to happen.

JO

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Pete's reply: I don't know if you're right about Wieters. The scouts and people I talk to say he's pretty good at calling the game for a guy with three months in the majors and 1 1/2 years of pro experience.

The manager's job is to maximize the talent of his entire roster to make the team successful. If he doesn't do that, he runs the risk of losing his job. This was not the most talented team, but even with the high number of rookies, this team should not be as bad as it is.

And another thing, I'm sick of hearing that things will turn around in 2011. What is that based on? Why can't things start getting better this offseason? I, for one, have had enough of two or three year plans, let this be the offseason of bold moves because there comes a point when potential gets old and patience expires.

Okay so Macphail saved our dying farm system. Wait did he? Its easy just to say he saved it maybe financially but the quality of players coming up are not helping the team win yet and the Orioles are becoming worse than the Pirates and Nationals. So he never said he was doing a 5 year plan… Okay how long could this project take? Until Angelos dies or sells the team? Until he gets the commissioner job and bails? I honestly think this season could have been a 500 year if Angelos would have spent even a minimal amount on 2-3 legitimate free agents and im not talking CC or Tex but an AJ or a Looper etc. As far as Trembley is concerned I don’t like the guy as our manager but he showed some potential last season and the players seemed to like him but he’s done some questionable things this year like mismanaging the pitching, burning out the pen and pitching to get to Vlad etc etc etc etc and the team is regressing with him at the helm. Angelos needs to hire a real manager and start being serious instead of stockpiling money and putting out a s*** product. I really think he has a comparable amount of cash as the yanks or sox if not very close. No excuse for this team to be where it is right now.

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Pete's reply: Actually, there's plenty of excuse for where this team is right now, unless you are attaching 1998-2007 to MacPhail. He was brought in here to turn around a franchise that wasn't even expansion caliber. It takes more than two years. Blasting the young players because they aren't stars in their first half-season is just ludicrous. It's like sending your kid to college and expecting him to know everything before he gets there. Let's at least be semi-rational about this.

FREE THE BIRDS!!!!

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=peter+angelos&docid=1101939343464&mid=7AD666A250BA013A8FCD7AD666A250BA013A8FCD&FORM=VIVR6#

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/news/1999/04/30/cuba_orioles/t1_castro_ap.jpg

Just bring back Davey Johnson already. Everyone knows Angelos dropped the ball big-time there even himself and no other directions he’s gone since has helped the team so bring him back and stop messing around.

Jess Kvetchin

Welcome to Birdland!

I read today that the tigers are going to use Huff to ensure a reduction in Magglio Ordonez playing time so they don’t have to pay him hahahah Peter Angelos, Macphail and Mike Flanagan probably gave the tigers the idea on that one to seal the trade LOL it just sounds like typical Baltimore sleaze

Pete, what's your take on the insane amount of home runs and the fact that we have a rookie catcher behind the plate? I think there could be a relation between the two. Is Wieters calling his own game? If so, the resulting long balls are as much a part of him learning to call a game as the young pitchers missing spots. Any thoughts?

Also, to you fans who equated firing Joe Madden and firing Trembley, I'm thinking you haven't watched many O's games. People are calling for his head because of the total lack of desire this team appears to bring and a pattern of questionable moves (for the last, most memorable one, see sending a runner from third on contact with NO OUTS and the INFIELD IN in a ONE RUN GAME. Yes they don't get the big hits, but you DON'T NEED A BIG HIT with less than two outs and a runner on third. You need a fly ball. (Result, shot to short, runner thrown out by 5 steps).
Those are the types of calls that have people calling for his dismissal. As my wife said while watching that game with me, "I don't even know all the rules, but I know that didn't make any sense."

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Pete's reply: I'm sure inexperience at both ends of the battery plays a part in it. I also think that some of the young guys need to get a little more movement on their fastballs. Some of them have been awful straight.

Here's the problem I have with putting all the blame on Dave & then unloading him after the season.
Suppose you are in the military and your platoon has been through one tough battle after another...you've lost some really good guys & close friends, you are undermanned, tired, bruised & battered, under-supplied yet you have to keep moving forward because if you sit still you're gone.
All through these fights you've had one commander that through the good times (not many)& the bad (alot)...he's held you together, nurtured you & given you what you need to know to survive & make it to another day. Often times you didn't agree with his decisions, sometimes you hated him yet deep down you knew he always had your back & was making calls that were for the benefit of this small group of guys that were left standing. He was the guy that took in the same food as you, shared his water, worked on the injured & blead the same when he was hit. After awhile you realized he was one of you & he's done everything he can with what he has to advance to the next mission.
Then, after all you've been through together...the Big General with all the shiny credentials shows up with his new cast of saviors & says guys out of my way...let me show you how it's done.
Now he heads into battle with all new reserves, the latest technology, & fully equipped with all the latest gadgets. He gets a few easy victories & all the brass say "see we should have had him there all along". The problem is we are not compairing the same thing. What one person did with what he had in reality may be far superior to what just took place with an entire new force.
So it is with Dave Trembley...I think he's been that trusted guy that did what he could with what he HAS not what he could do with what someone else may GET.
Anyone that knows anything about baseball knows Dave is dying inside with one putrid inning after another. However, he's never dumped on his players, he's taken the hits & by living every day through another Oriole nightmare season & staying as positive as he has, he deserves to remain manager of this team until he has all the new weapons at his disposal. Then, and only then, should Dave be judged unworthy should he not be able to complete the mission once the headline troops arrive with all that glitters. Only then should this commander be asked to step aside for the Big General with the long set of credentials who somehow we all know would have never survived enen 1 month with the "other guys".

Jack
We don’t know Trembleys purpose may have been to be this 2 year interim manager that could have been the whole reason he was hired during this regrouping phase. He may not even of been hired otherwise he should feel lucky he got a chance at all. Don’t feel bad for him he is being well compensated and can use this to move on to another gig.

Dave lost all sympathy from me with his insane treatment of Zaun. Could someone post today's catcher as early as possible.

Okay so Macphail saved our dying farm system. Wait did he? Its easy just to say he saved it maybe financially but the quality of players coming up are not helping the team win yet and the Orioles are becoming worse than the Pirates and Nationals. So he never said he was doing a 5 year plan… Okay how long could this project take? Until Angelos dies or sells the team? Until he gets the commissioner job and bails? I honestly think this season could have been a 500 year if Angelos would have spent even a minimal amount on 2-3 legitimate free agents and im not talking CC or Tex but an AJ or a Looper etc. As far as Trembley is concerned I don’t like the guy as our manager but he showed some potential last season and the players seemed to like him but he’s done some questionable things this year like mismanaging the pitching, burning out the pen and pitching to get to Vlad etc etc etc etc and the team is regressing with him at the helm. Angelos needs to hire a real manager and start being serious instead of stockpiling money and putting out a s*** product. I really think he has a comparable amount of cash as the yanks or sox if not very close. No excuse for this team to be where it is right now.

Pete's reply: Actually, there's plenty of excuse for where this team is right now, unless you are attaching 1998-2007 to MacPhail. He was brought in here to turn around a franchise that wasn't even expansion caliber. It takes more than two years. Blasting the young players because they aren't stars in their first half-season is just ludicrous. It's like sending your kid to college and expecting him to know everything before he gets there. Let's at least be semi-rational about this.

----

Pete 12 years of losing is inexcusable! There is blame to go all around but this mess revolves around Angelos. AM buys time and is cost effective that’s why he is here.
This thing cant be turned around on this present course. Angelos needs to open the wallet get a few FA and a real manager this offseason.

The lack of offense is really starting to scare me for next year. The O's seem to be regularly held to 3 runs or less, often against pitchers who can't seem to hold anyone else to less than 5 or 6.
It's hard to imagine one big bat making all that much difference, even if there's one out there to be had.
As for Weiters catching, I am still pretty optimistic about the guy, but what could have been so different between him and Zaun that allowed Guthrie to be an effective pitcher with one but not the other?
The only optimism I have for next season is hoping that all the rookies show dramatic improvement over the off season. I had hoped, once upon a time, that the rookies would show some signs of catching fire late in this season, thereby relieving us of this annual, agonizing crawl to the end of the season. That hope is gone, so I find myself as a fan following this team almost out of habit now, because it sure ain't any fun.

Geez Pete the only ones more irrational than O's fans blasting the rookie players are the attendees on both sides of the aisle at the health care reform town halls!
Maybe we should start a bring back Daniel Cabrera movement.

To follow-up my earlier post, I never said firing Trembley would be fair; in fact, by many measures, it would be judged unfair. Pete, I agree, the players may see it as unfair as well.
I think it's worth the risk. I don't think this team, even considering their youth and lack of bats, is playing well enough. There is something intangible to losing that infects your thinking, such as Jones now trying too hard at the plate, Mora stubbornly refusing to change his hitting approach, Roberts running into a pop-up double play, experienced batters going down on 3 pitch strike outs late in the game. Maybe it's tough to say this is directly Trembley's fault, but maybe these kind of things don't happen under a different manager. Let's find out. This team needs a change and a spark.

jimontheshore,

I'm just curious why the comeback years don't count? Was it a different Earl Weaver or just because the results changed while his methods didn't?

Rick,

There's something to be said about the benefits of continuity too. New manager and a new system sets the clock back on development before/if it goes forward again.

JO,

I've heard only good things about Wieters too in how he calls a game. The criticisms I've heard have been the missing of the spots he's calling.

--
I'm just curious what happens if firing the manager didn't turn this team around overnight in September? Does McPhail tell the guys if they hit 100 losses that they're going to take the Oriole Bird out behind the warehouse and be forced to watch an executioner break his neck?

What about next year? Do we just have 10 game auditions where someone has to win at least 8 to keep their job another 2 weeks?

No shutdown or even consistent pitching + no slugger or even clutch hitter = 2009 Birds. Any stats on failure to score runner from third base with one out or less?

Why would we get a "natural" 1b, Aubrey, & the mgr. don't know how to use him? This is the last straw for me.I've been trying to give DT slack, but that's the end. Why keep putting Scott, Wiggy, there? The 2nd last straw, is why is Mora still playing?
Bye DT, I rest my case.

We get a "natural" 1b, Aubrey, & the Mgr. don't know how to use him? Hello DT, how about 1b ?
Lastsraw for me. Bye DT. Why play lame duck Mora?

I hope this comment gets through, as for some reason my posts never seem to...

Orioles fans, you have become some of the worst fans in baseball. I am embarrassed to say that I am a fan with you and to be honest... you all should be ashamed. YES, I agree we have been awful for almost my entire life. I am 22 years old and can barely remember a time when the Orioles won more games than they lost. I have to watch highlights to remember Jimmy Key and Scott Erickson and Mike Mussina and all that... YES. However, you have become completely irrational in your distress over this team. NO ONE... NO ONE... NO ONE could have turned this team around any faster. FA's didn't want to sign with us. Our farm system was an embarrassment, and our Owner was (is, will forever be?) a moron.

It put us in a position where we could not win, we could not even compete. And now, finally we have a plan, we have talent, and we have hope... and all you can do is look at the now and complain... whine and moan that we aren't good and that we should fire the one manager who the players seem to respond to. He may have made mistakes, and he may not be the best manager in the game but he is not a bad guy, nor is he a bad manager.

We have young pitching that is learning on the go. Bergeson was having a fantastic rookie year, Tillman is showing that he clearly has the stuff to make it (as long as his fastball develops a little movement), Matusz clearly has the makeup and the talent as well. We have a solid young core of young hitters as well... Makakis, Jones, Weiters, Reimold... we have talent... its there. Can we stop expecting this team to turn everything around in 2 years... please. Even if we had gone out and bought a team... it still would not be able to compete in the AL East without young talent behind it... so lets wait.

If in 2 years we are still here, then lets start the McPhaill bashing and the Dave ripping... but at least give the plan a chance. I can't believe how some of you can be so stupid and so shortsighted that you see this year and get all hot and bothered... please either stop following the Orioles... because if you are like that we DO NOT WANT YOU... or realize that this is going to take time...

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Pete's reply: Don't know why your posts haven't posted. Let me know if you have further problems.