I say stability is more important than anything when re-building. Bring DT back for at least another year

I think he's on very shaky ground. For someone whose forte was supposed to be fundamentals and who used the three words "respect the game" repeatedly early in his tenure, this team has been nothing of the sort.

I would challenge anyone to tell me one thing, that his team or he as a manager does well.

It worries me that there is such a strong division among those who support keeping Trembley as manager and those who want to see him replaced.

There doesn't seem to be too many people in the wide middle ground here. Most people seem to believe he's a failure, or that he is doing a great job. That doesn't bode well for whenever there is a decision made.

Personally, even if I myself would lean towards replacement at this point, I believe that any decision should be postponed until the season is over. We have no reason to make a change at any point between now and October 4.

He should be evaluated in exactly the same way as any player or coach on this team: is this someone who we believe can do the job when we are ready to compete. If the answer is yes, he's a keeper. If the answer is no, he should be let go.

And I'm willing to let Andy MacPhail make that decision, as long as that is the reasoning given for a decision either way.

I think a lot hinges on if the O's collapse in September again. So far with DT its two Septembers, two collapses.

I say give Trembley another year.
The late season collapses have had to do largely with the fact he's had a young pitching staff with marginal talent at best.
Assuming Tillman, Arrieta, and Matusz are all playing by next May, I think Trembley should get a chance to manage a season with actual talent. Not Cabrera, Olsen, Eaton, Liz etc...
Also the fundamentals need to improve. Before the break Trembley promised they would after seeing a bunch of mistakes while serving his suspension in the booth.

You have to give DT another chance. He doesn't have the horses to compete in the AL East yet. Lets see what he can do when the young guns come up and how he handles an "up and coming" team.

If a big name becomes available and interested in the Orioles, DT will get cut loose. Might get cut loose regardless because they may feel they need to shake things up a little. I think DT does a decent job with the hand he is dealt but the manager always takes the fall. Would he be in last place if he had the Red Sox roster to work with? NO.

Good point birdfanman...

Pete,

Estimate how many wins this year's Red Sox team would have with DT at the helm. Probably the exact same number as they do now.

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Pete's reply: That's really hard to say. Maybe Dave would have gotten Big Papi out of that slump faster.

Peter,
I don't know. The Trembley talk is overblown. Lazy reportage? If you see the losses mounting, it's default media practice today to talk about changing the leadership, but it strikes me as the kind of discussion you have when a team is closer to contention. Or at least, the nature of the talk is vastly different with a team that is clearly rebuilding.

We entered this season with no illusions about the win column. As long as fans saw real progress in the youth movement, fans were willing to give a pass to a lot (in theory). Putting Trembley in the hot seat for mistakes made by a young team doesn't make sense. The focus of the rumors seem to center around making him the fall guy for dumb mistakes, which is the kind of accountability you demand when a team is contending. Granted, those mistakes are dumb and unacceptable, but Trembley's accountibility should be tied to his role as a coach promoting a productive growth environment, not his ability to produce results. That doesn't mean whatever he does is fine. It just means Trembley's evaluation should come from how he gets the player to fix those mistakes, how it doesn't happen repeatedly, and how conducive the clubhouse environment to that kind of activity. It's not as easy to quantify as a W-L record so maybe a more sophisticated kind of journalism is required to cover it. Otherwise we just see a lot of default "Hot Seat" rumor talk.

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Pete's reply: I think that those questions get asked all the time, but I think W-L is the determining factor in almost every firing. You can say it might be lazy reportage, but I read the message boards and the posts here and Dave's job status was an obsession long before me and Jeff starting writing about it.

I feel like I'm having to talk about firing Brian Billick all over again. At that point there were the same types of people making the same types of excuses for the coach. There are so many reasons to fire DT. First off, he has very little if any feel for when to take pitchers out and to leave pitchers in. He seems to either be too worried about the pitch count or too worried about a leadoff single in the eighth. Secondly, for a guy who was supposed to stress fundamentals, this team is atrocious at them. YES, the players play and the coaches coach, but the coach has to be able to get through to the players and have a message and teaching style that WORKS. These skills I just mentioned are easily determinable from a manager with a below .500 team or an above .500 team. These indicators are present for a winning team or a losing team. McPhail should let him manage the remainder of the season then start fresh with a new manager next year that can excel in the areas that I just mentioned.

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Pete's reply: No offense, but a lot of what you say here is predicated on the notion that you really know better how to manage the team than he does. Who's to say for sure if he doesn't know when to take a pitcher out...unless you're basing your judgment on hindsight. If you go back and look, when he has decent personnel on the mound, he usually looks pretty good. The fundamental errors and baserunning mistakes are a different story. Even though they are not necessarily his fault, the manager is held responsible for that.

Pete,
I apologize for my insensitive comments the other night. And posting links to other Orioles articles is wonderful! I like how some of your readers jumped on me too. I wasn't completely serious.....sarcasm is sometimes better in person.

As for Trembley, another late season losing streak might not help his cause. I believe he is a good coach, and cares a great deal. I had a chance to meet him briefly this year in Seattle, and he was very courteous to the few Baltimore fans there. I do think that the baserunning mistakes and very poor base stealing attempts and high percentage of caught stealing could affect John Shelby. I am also of the belief that Terry Crowley is overrated and being the longest tenured Orioles coach..............it might help to get a different message from a different person(Eddie Murray please). On the surface if you just look at runs scored and batting averages , you probably think I am crazy.......but my issue is the Orioles either seem to score 12 runs a game or get shut out.

Good luck on the recovery.....and I am sure Ice Cream will help.

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Pete's reply: No problem. I guess I was too banged up to catch the subtle shadings. It's been a long week.

On the subject of Orioles managers, anyone who is an O's fan just has to read the current issue of Sports Illustrated. It's one of their flashback/where are they now issues and there is an excellent story about Earl Weaver. Even though he's 78 years old, he still has an eye for the game and they interviewed him at length during a spring training game this March. Earl is still priceless; he watched Eaton get pounded and Earl yells-mix in a wild pitch once in awhile and then said-at least he can throw strikes!
Weaver was not a fan of sacrifice bunts/giving up outs and he absolutely hated guys getting thrown out on the bases(meaning that he would have had a heart attack by now watching the '09 O's). He was a master of using all his roster by effective matchups, was a big fan of OBA and of course, he knew how to handle a pitching staff. He wasn't shy about arguing with umps fo course and he didn't care if his players liked him or not.
Earl was a genius and probably a big reason why the O's were a powerhouse back in the day. Flashforward to now and we have a manager who is almost the anti-Earl.....
Dave Trembley wants to be everyone's friend, he sits back and watches his team make baserunning blunders game after game, rarely challenges umps calls, seems lost when it comes to using his bench and/or when to change pitchers and there is still debate going on if he should be around after this year????
Like someone noted above, what exactly is his strong point(s) as a manager?

I think any time you are going to have a discussion about replacing a manager or coach, you need to include in that discussion who the replacement would be. Would firing the manager actually result in an upgrade?

Supposing the O's decide to move in another direction, you would have to assume they would go outside the organization (there is not really another Perlozzo/Trembley type waiting his turn). If you tell me that a guy with a history of success with young teams is available and willing (Bobby Valentine, Bob Melvin, Buck Showalter?) then maybe I'd be intrigued. But if we are talking about a retread (Art Howe, Jim Tracy, etc.), then why change?

One more time because I think it was a great point: To someone who supports picking up the 2010 option: what exactly are Dave Trembley's strong point(s) as a manager?

Dave has done a tremendous job. Forty wins when you turn over 4/5 of your starting rotation is a testimony to the manager and general manager. More importantly he has the right values and teaches the right behaviours. Now if they will only do base running drills on the first day of each new series, then the win total will creep up so more.

Give Dave another year as things are now just getting good. He does many things well to answer Terry P:
1. Handles young players well
2. The clubhouse leaders respect him
3. Has class
4. Has passion
5. He's a stand-up guy
6. He's happy to have this job in a sucky organization that was brutal before Andy Mc came to town
7. He knows how to manage. All managers are criticized about pitch count concerns and when relievers fail they get Monday morning QB'd.

Pete -

Zrebiec's article highlights one thing: that the O's have been bad for 9 years. So has our problem been the manager all along? Please Davey, come back (and bring Jon Miller with you....)???

Some posters will fire Dave for a "2nd half swoon". Given the past, that would have to be a sub .400 record.

I can't see why Andy fires him. Dave's not the real problem - it's the players and specifically starting pitching. Unless Andy feels that Dave has made poor game decisions that have contributed to the losses, and if there is a better manager available for 2010, he should stay. And then the measuring stick for bringing him back in 2011 is a .500 record in 2010.

OK Pete....you have our thoughts and we kind of know yours. Any wise words to add to the debate?

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Pete's reply: Well, I've already made my opinion known on this. Dave, up to now, has been the caretaker of Andy's rebuilding plan, and he's done a pretty good job of that. The only thing on the other side of the ledger is the poor fundamental stuff during the first half, but that is significant because you're trying to get back to the "Oriole Way" and bad baserunning isn't it. I'll stick with my feeling that Dave has lead the team upward (not in the standings, necessarily) during the final months of the season. They have to be noticeably more competitive for him to return next year, and they are capable of that.

I was not sold on Dave Trembley since day one. He struck me as a person who talks a lot of smack but can't back it up.

To his defense, the players are the ones that have to backup his smack talking, but they have not delivered. Also, to DT's defense, it is hard to find consistency when Andy McPhail himself has said it that the line up we are going to with in Spring Training is different that the one we will start the season. The lineup in May will look different than that of midway through the season. And it will keep changing as the season goes along.

It is too much to ask of a manager to build continuity without stability. The Pie experiment is on Andy McPhail. DT had nothing to do with it. He was forced to keep him in the line-up. Same with Rich Hill, but he has a chance to turn it around, I hope. These Cubs' rejects have hurt DT's tenure.

For the better or for worse any manager is judged based on their record. It is not fair, but it is what it is.

Of course if Mora and Huff have the seasons they had last year, and Guthrie pitches like he is supposed to, and if Brob steals 50 bases, Cakes hits 320, all of a sudden DT becomes a genious.

DT might be a good teacher; however the O's don't need anymore teaching. They need leading, and accountability.

It is hard to say whether another manager would have done better under the same circumstances, and the next manager will benefit greatly from some of the pain and lessons learned during the DT era.

The fact of the matter is that the O's went after Gerardi and he was too smart to go through the pain of rebuilding and taint his record with losses. Trembley was a sacrificial lamb. The next manager for the O's will be a lucky guy.

Again, NOT FAIR; but it is what it is.

Earl Weaver's management style wouldn't work with today's players. The landscape has changed drastically in the past 30 years.

If anyone on this site really believes that this team would be over .500 with a different manager, I have 500 acres to sell you in Idaho.

Barring a total collapse in the second half, I believe Trembley will return next year.

I think he's done a great job when you consider this team has one viable starting pitcher.

I hear Jim Leyritz is available and he is tough.
But really, i say give him a chance with at least one season of the youngsters. This team was predicted to finish dead last and there they are. Turning over managers just to see heads roll accomplishes nothing. Unless you can drag Earl or Davey Johnson back...

Miller.
Hargrove.
Mazzilli.
Perlozzo/Mazzone.
Trembley.

Adding one more to this list is just following the same script of the last decade. I just think it's always been an empty gesture to constantly fire the manager repeatedly, over the last decade, which creates a turnover we don't see but the players experience (New pitching coach, bullpen coach, minorleague reshuffling, etc..), when the problem all along has been simply one thing and all that entails:

Personnel.

What does it mean to fire the manager right now? Does it produce a better team in the longrun? Does it send a message the players need to hear that they haven't already heard? If so, what is that message? Or is it a gesture for fans? Or, does that turnover create a new dimension of complexity that the young players will have to adjust to, on top of adjusting to the majors, which may become an obstacle?

MacPhail once said something I completely agree with, that outside of an egregiously bad manager, developing young talent requires stability.

Personally it's absurd that some of the worst blunders that bring Trembley under fire has come from the veterans. I would much rather see the team attempt to trade those vets rather than introduce another stale round of finding a new manager. We've done 12+ years of that. Guess what? It doesn't work. How many times do we need to have this same conversation until we get it?

I have to disagree with those who say keep Trembley for the sake of consistantcy. The only constant here for a long time has been losing.
Trembley strikes me as a guy who will do exactly what a lot of supporters are saying. "Play his hand." Yeah with a young transitional team such as the O's he's not so good, sure with the Red Sox roster he's gonna win a few more, but the point is he's not creating anything. You can argue if it's the manager's responsibility to create anything (the title of the job implies keeping the status quo if you think about it) but I believe better in game management (pitchers especially) more passion, more accountability would have scratched out 5 or 6 more wins at this point. Does it matter now? Not unless you're one of these people who are just dying to get back to .500, but it will matter a lot in a year or two, I can just about guarantee that.
And of course the players like him because he keeps their stress levels down and lets them do whatever they want. I'll say it again that these young millionaires need someone holding them acountable for their effort, preparedness, and decision making not another friend. You can't argue that.
Another thing that worries me is this notion that all Trembley has to do to hold onto the job is to avoid the annual August/September meltdown. I really hope that the front office is holding him to a higher standard than that. I know some of you will say "baby steps" but a winning team has got to start with a winning attitude. Maybe it's time to put some higher expectations out there, get some people fired up. What's the worst that can happen, you'll be disappointed? AGAIN!
The other arguement a would somewhat agree with is that there aren't a lot of proven MLB winners lined up to accept the job. So who do you replace him with? Well that's another area where it falls upon McPhail to earn his stripes. He's got to find someone, and make it happen. Just like the way they interview all the potential draft picks in every sport now to try to determine their character and where their head's are at, a manager I'm sure is no different. And there is someone out there who is the man for the job. (BTW his name is not Earl Weaver, Cal Ripken, Rick Dempsey, or Jim Palmer, so please give it a rest).
Sorry for the long post but I think another poster summed it up much more succintly then myself.
"DT might be a good teacher; however the O's don't need anymore teaching. They need leading, and accountability."

Basemonkey,

I agree with you to a certain degree, that a manager is as good as the tools he has. Mike Hargrove is a prime example. His success with the Indians from 95-99 could be attributed to a very good team.

Angelos has scapegoated managers throughout the years as to show the fans he cares. If he cared he would get them the tools they need to succeed.

I think Trembley will be allowed to finish the season, no matter the record. No serious manager would want to pickup this mess called the Orioles right now.

It is important to have a manager that runs the clubhouse independently from the GM or the owner. A manager who's given the freedom to run it his way. I'm not so certain Trembley enjoys those freedoms.

A lot of the losing should be blamed on a poor spring training, not entirely on poor managing.

As long as they are at Fort Lauderdale, as long as their minor league camps are far away, as long as the fields they play on are hazardous to ones health, this team will never be good at evaluating players, developing and teaching skills, and carrying the best 25 players to Baltimore. As an example, its been quite obvious that Bergerson should have been on the opening day roster and Chris Ray should have never made the team, until he worked his mechanics out.

Maybe players should learn baserunning drills in March. How can you teach when the fields are unplayable? And how can you expect the players to get in shape (lift weights) when that training area is a joke.

We are so far behind the rest of MLB in these areas, without a new facility, how can you expect to catch the rest of the AL East? The Red Sox refused to play on our field. Also, Joe Girardi knew how bad the situation was, and it was part of why he turned down the O's job. Who would want the job? No way 2010 in Fort Lauderdale. That would be an embarrassment.

Just for the record, I am not saying to keep or fire Trembley. I am just defining how we should evaluate a manager on this team. Baserunning mistakes and fielding blunders magnifies things. They might look awful, but they happen every now and then. Even on good teams. It makes no sense in taking a major change in course, when the youth movement has been going so well, on a team where those blunders cost us games, but for a team expected to be in a learning curve anyways.

Just because this team makes a bad string of unprofessional errors doesn't mean you automatically decapitate the team. On a team with playoff hopes you would, but on this team, you have to think about it. It's not as if the Orioles are like the Nats and on track for a 40 win season. they're within spitting distance of .500, which to me counts as "not that awful." The questions we should ask are: Are those mistakes edemic of something larger? Part of Trembley's coaching style, aberrations, or growing pains? What is Trembley's response? Does it happen again? Does he lose the clubhouse support like Mazzilli did? How would this affect the other kids in the system the org hang their hopes on?

The answer to these questions might be to replace the manager, but, I am just putting some cold water on the usual way of debating this topic. Typically the Orioles of the last 12 years have tried to both compete AND rebuild simultaneously, and due to the paradoxical agenda, placed contradictory expectations on its managers, and fired them for not winning. Let's just rethink our knee jerks.

Slugger,
One point I'd nitpick on is your comment about the manager needing to work independently from the GM. I just don't agree with that. There's been a lot of disasters over the years of GMs and managers not seeing eye to eye. Managers need to tell GMs what they need on the majorleague team. GMs run the org and provide those assets. There's a reason why a guy like, say, Jim Leland has followed his GM when he left teams. Philosophically, a National style manager, a Texas Ranger offense-first style, an Oriole Way pitching and defense style, whatever it is, a manager and GM have to agree to get a team going.

Trembley's a good fit for this young team. He's intelligent, supportive, honest, and, apparently, patient. He also takes orders very well. Get him some more pitching and see how he does. See if the Pirates will send us Gorzelany and Snell for a couple of broken bats. Their real good at trading off talent. The two young arms I mentioned are in AAA and obviously outclassing the opposition.

Man, most of these comments are so long as to make them virtually unreadable. Get to the point folks. Trembley must be held accountable for how his team plays. Given the attitude of the likes of Roberts, the terrible baserunning mistakes and his propensity to just run guys into the ground while they slump and others rot on the bench, Trembley is not a good manager and should be fired or certainly not retained for another year.

You know I really think Trembley is the guy for the job. Despite the mistakes I think he does a good job of keeping the team professional and asking every player to do his best. I think the real problem is that the mistakes are glaringly obvious. On other teams in the same performance boat as the Orioles, the whole team makes little mistakes or just plain under achieves. But I think this club is well ahead of where it should be and I think Trembley is a big part of that. I mean 8 games below .500 is good but it's better than it's been in the past. It's hard to keep a team focused for 162 games but Trembley real seems like the kind of guy who can keep everyone one cool for a long time and make up that 8 game deficit. I don't know how he does it. Maybe I'm so desperate for a win that I've just chosen him as a default savior. I think it's really his combination with Andy Macphail that makes this possible. They're both two guys who aren't trying to apologize to the fans. They're just trying to do their jobs the best way possible and I really respect that. It really reminds me of the Ravens. Ozzie is resolute in his beliefs for team composition and Harbaugh and staff do their best to milk every ounce of talent on the team. Trembley I think has that charisma and determination to do a similar thing for the Orioles. With that in mind I think he's the future solution for this club. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say this is the year they break the slump. I've no real reason for saying that but I think this is the year they'll win or be closer than ever. And I think once a manager is part of that, you have to stick with him 'cause his bond with that turning point team will be greater than anyone else's.

Charles. Why wouldn't Weaver's managerial style work now? Many of his ideas-such as emphasis on power, On base percentage and platooning/using all his bench seem to fit in any era. Another Weaver trademark was to slowly integrate guys into the rotation by using them in long relief, that's definitely an idea worth considering with some(not all) of our future starters.
Greg. Trembley does possess the attributes you list but not all of these necessarily translate into wins. For example, just because the veterans like/respect you...that could be because he doesn't hold them accountable. You don't always have to be loved to be successful.
Yes, Trembley seems like a standup/nice guy etc . I 'm sure Mora and other vets are good in the community but sometime we have to look past that and try to build a winner. That may involve making tough personnel decisions and that's why McPhail was brought in.

You know over the years, this fan base has a love-hate relationship with the manager on-duty. They love him at first, and then they fall out of love and its like a bad divorce, you can't wait to get rid of him. You blame him for all the woes, and harp on his faults and forget his attributes.

I agree Weaver would fit in. He got the most out of his players, strategy was great. But the problem is there is only one Weaver. I actually like the traits that Trembley has, he has more fire under him this year. He is like a PG version of the Earl of Baltimore.

I think that time will tell on Trembley'. I think the fans point at the coach too often. Trembley did not pitch that day when Johnson and Sherrill gave up the three run lead. It was just one of those days, and it happens to everyone. Did they beat up on Boston Redsox manager as bad for when they blew a 9 run lead to the last place Orioles? Did people blog about replacing him? A good manager will always take responsibility for the loss and give the players credit for the win, Trembley is good with the players, you never hear about what goes on behind closed doors.

I think fans had better be prepared for more decisions made on pitch counts. The minor leaguers have never thrown as many innings as they will in their first year in the majors and the past Sept swoons have been fueled by pitching collapses. It is somebody's job to look at the big picture and that guy is Andy. Luckily for most of your posters, it is NOT their job.

Nobody ever talks about the fact that the orioles are double losers , not only don't they have one player on there team that has ever played on a winner , they haven't hired a manager recently outside of hargrove who has ever had any success in the league.I know that players make great managers but you look at all the teams in first place right now and they all have managers that have a history of winning.

Given a genie to do my bidding, I would rather have Weaver's roster in its prime than Weaver in his prime.
Then again, given Barbara Eden in HER prime to do my bidding, I would be too busy to post here or care much about the Orioles record.

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Pete's reply: This post basically sums up my philosophy of life.

You can't win with what you don't have! Trembley has not had a chance yet. Let him coach a team with the potential to win.

Folks, let's not take Dave for granted. For those who say he is not the right person to manage the team, who exactly would you suggest, and on what basis do you recommend that? The team is rebuilding, and let's be honest, this season has seen the franchise take measurable steps forward. DT's job is to keep them focused, get the young guys in there for as many innings and AB's as possible to get their early year(s) under their belt, build their confidence and level of maturity and playing skills. He has to do this all the while trying to win as many games as possible, and at 40-48 (for a team that could easily have 4-5 more wins than they do), the record is not entirely the only thing to focus on.

As for 2010 - the jury is still out on DT, but not because he is a lousy manager, but at this point, everyone should be on the line for lining up the results along side the expectations. Barring an impact free agent signing and depending on how some of the young guys develop (who would have guessed Bergesen would have stepped up like this) 2010 may look a whole lot like 2009. In that context, maybe Dave is the right guy for next year. If they go 25-50 down the stretch, he is not the only one who should answer for that.

Just saw a Sun poll where 70+% of folks would like to see Trembley manage through 2010 season.

Should you support Trembley because he is a blue collar guy, good personality, the whole 9?

Personally, I'd rather have a jerk for manager who delivers the wins. Baseball is not a popularity contest. Most people forget that the record is what matters, not the way he handles himself, not the sweet and smooth talking. Talk is cheap!

I don't think that replacing Trembley really matters at all, despite all the credit managers tend to get, as well as blame. The manager probably determines four or five wins a season if he is extremely gifted, or shows extremely poor judgment. Most managers determine fewer than that. Everything else depends on the players. Baseball if a game in which there are many random variables, and many choices managers make where the correct option is clear only in retrospect. For the most part, managers stand at the roulette table, putting down bets, and the right picks and the wrong ones will balance in the end. The odds of coming out ahead depend entirely on the quality of the players, and this team, right now, doesn't have enough quality to compete.

Pete,

The old saying is you can't fire the players so the manager has to go; however, since the Orioles are rebuilding the is a distinct possibility that a number of current players will not be back next year. Either they will be traded by the end of August, their options will not be picked up or they will just be cut loose. Who are on your list for Orioles who will not be back next year? Also at the beginning of the year you set the over/under on starting pitchers for the Orioles at 11. Any desire to change that number now?

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Pete's reply: Well, I believe we're at 9 right now, so I'll stay with 11.

Actually they have had players that played on teams that won the world series. Gregg Zaun is one. Izturis played on the Dodgers when they had a few nice runs to the playoffs, Luke Scott with the 2005 Astros, Rich Hill pitched in the 2007 Cubs playoff run, Hendrickson pitched for the Dodgers a few years ago during their playoff run, Baez pitched for the Indians during their playoff run several years ago. All of these players won big games before. You know most of the ones that came out of High School dominated so much most of their teams won big games and ones like Wieters played in huge college games.

In time they will win. It will happen.

Trembley has neither exceeded nor missed the expectations placed upon him as a first-time manager of a rebuilding team.

As winning % go, over the last 4 years, the O's overall win % is .430. If you take the combined August/September clips from the same time frame, the O's win 32% of the time.

This year's team is better than a .320 win percentage. Since Trembley has neither exceeded nor missed the expectations placed upon him, I am comfortable with the team's 2009 August-September clip determining his future. If we can close the season at or close to the pace we've maintained thus far (.455), then he should stay. But if our stretch run is closer to that .320 pace we've set over the last four Aug/Septs, then I think we have to consider other options.

I gotta admit that DT's obsession with pitch counts frustrates me, but maybe he's trying to protect the young starter's arms (or just following orders from AM). I would like to see him be a little more creative in his handling of pitchers and the lineup (e.g. get rid of the "Sunday" lineup)

Still, unless he loses the clubhouse, he should be kept for 2010. As a lot of posters have mentioned, there's no point in firing him unless there's somebody better available, and right now there isn't.

Case in point: In the mid-90's Angelos got tired of finishing 10 games over .500 so he fired Johnny Oates (who then went to the playoffs) and hired Phil Regan (who then went to the unemployment line).

I don't expect miracles, but I do expect teams to play to their potential, difficult though that may be to discern.

That's what I find so frustrating about this season, because the lack of fundamentals prevent this team from winning "winnable" games. That is a problem that falls heavily on the manager.

Also, there is a longer-standing problem with this franchise and that is the plague of "losingitis".

Losingitis is a disease that impairs the ability and/or the will of a player to win. It often occurs when a player is entrenched in a season with a losing record or, worse, when a player has been exposed to multiple seasons of losing records. Symptoms include listlessness, lapses in concentration, confusion/irritability when winning, etc.

The trouble is that losingitis is very contagious, particularly on teams with longstanding losing records. It is a particular challenge for a manager to keep losingitis from spreading among his players, especially from veterans to younger players, as well as avoid catching losingitis himself.

Losingitis hits losing teams particularly hard later in the season, and the Orioles' recent history painfully shows how rampant this disease can spread.

Dave Trembley has to do what he can to improve the team's execution of the fundamentals, and he has to fight the spread of losingitis among his players in the upcoming weeks.

I'm not Trembley's biggest fan, but he at least deserves the rest of the season to make his case. This team started out the season full of players that everyone from McPhail on down knew would be gone by the break. Keeping them together and playing as a moderately functional team with the number of personnel changes he has had is an accomplishment all on it's own.
But, in the end, he needs to show he can motivate these guys to start playing better ball. Whether he does it by screaming at them or whispering sweetly in their shell like ears doesn't matter.
He has a decent talent base now, and hopefully will be getting still more young talent down the line. I fully expect this team to finish the season in firm control of last place, and that's fine, but what I don't want to see is the Orioles crawling down the stretch on their hands and knees, begging for the pain to finally be over, the way they have finished so many seasons recently. If they can play .500 ball the second half, and start showing some consistent spunk and act like they're actually paying attention on the field, I say bring him back next year.

Who is going to win with these guys in these situations? You don't see Francona shuffling prospects in and out of the lineup and dealing with total retread pitchers in April. His rotation gets the best prospect from Japan, not the afterthought DT got. He gets guys like Beckett, not guys like Eaton.

Someone mentioned Girardi and his snub of the Orioles...how'd the Yankees do last year with the largest collection of talent in the league? The man coaches an All-Star team and can't get it done. He's pathetic.

DT is actually a lot like Joe Torre and Bobby Cox to me. Both of whom were winners when they had talent to put out there. They are classy, fundamentally sound and command respect from their players. Not just command it, but they actually have it.

Joe Maddon in 2007 might as well have been fired. There was nothing special going on down there in 07 at all. Things sure got better once the young talent matured though. I seriously doubt you get the mileage out of the young guys from a new coach than the coach who's been grooming them.

All of these specific issues point to coaches more than managers anyway. More on the baserunning and hitting side. Kranitz is doing well with the pieces he has. Is Shelby letting these guys make decisions on when to push it for a double or are they just not listening? Guys don't seem to totally be aware of situations or that they don't need to be taking big leads if they haven't stolen a base in years. Crowley is a hard one since the overall statistics are pretty good, but there is too much talent on offense to get blanked as often as we do. The 11 run games actually hurt his cause in a way since they are quite capable of that more often than it's happening. I don't know who else to get though since I'm not up on my knowledge of coaches in the league other than Mattingly in LA I think. So for now I just say check it out and make sure DT has an effective staff too, not just talent.

The orioles have losingitis. That is hillarious. That would explain the way this team perfomance the last 10+ years. If this is the case what is the cure for such a disabilatating disease?

Trembley has do one thing in my mind to earn another year. Simply get these so called professional ball players to look like professionals. That means play GOOD fundamental baseball everyday. In my opinion there is way too much pampering, and nurturing when they are not babies. They are men that need to be challenged by ruling with an iron fist. It is unacceptable to have veteran players playing the way they do on this orioles team. PATHETIC!

Losingitis is an addiction not a disease. As fans we have to stop being enablers of losingitis. Stop spending money to go to the ball park in hope that losingitis will go away. It won't. All you're doing is giving Angelos enough profit for him to keep losingitis going.

As much as we love the O's, there comes a time when you have to let them go. A true fan does not enable losingitis due to fear of being labeled "a fair weather fan". This is bigger than us.

STOP supporting losingitis. Angelos and the O's have to hit losingitis rock-bottom in order to realize that they have to turn it around.

The Orioles need to take a page from the Ravens and hire a younger coach, someone who can bring a fresh new look and philosophy to the Orioles, and someone who can be here for the early stages of development, and grow right along with the team. Harbaugh was unknown, many were skeptical at first, but in the end Harbaugh backed up his commitment to the team with wins. Trembley is at best a minor league manager. He's a good guy, he knows baseball, but he doesn't command respect and he doesn't appear to have much of a command in the sector if discipline. He's an OK manager. You can't call him a complete failure because the team is so poor, but then again he has made many a costly managerial error, and the team looks like the Ravens team of old, lazy, and unmotivated. We NEED a fresh new start, and DT simply cannot provide that. We are rebuilding and that revising of our team needs to examine the managers in addition to the players.

I am more concerned than ever that DT's poor concept of strategy should disqualify him from a contract extension. For example, after 4 days off, can anyone think of any reason to start the 2nd half of the season with a consistently ineffective pitcher such as Berken rather than the team's best starter so far, Bergesen? It makes no sense at all.

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Pete's reply: I really don't get your reasoning here. Is Friday night's game more important than Sunday's. Giving Bergesen a couple days extra rest when he'll have to pitch way more innings than he has ever pitched in his career is just common sense. He'll likely still make the same number of starts in the second half.

Markakis swings late at a high fastball strike three in the first. He one hands a change up inside the foul pole for two runs in the third. In the fourth, he comes up w/ bases loaded two outs. What pitch should he look for?

Of course, look fastball. He hasn't shown he can hit that yet. Pitcher's in a jam.

Not Nick. Instead he takes two fastballs down the middle, and ends up getting jammed on a fastball and grounds out to second.

What area of strategy has Trembley failed in. You can make all the moves you want on the field, but if the players don't have the skill or experience to execute what does it matter. Tony La Russa is considered one of the greatest managers in the game, what could he have done differently to get more wins out of this group? Take a look at Jeff Zrebiec's article on best and worst of the first half and ask this question: If your two best relievers hold onto leads in those games and the O's are a game or two under .500, would anyone be calling for DT's head?

Another blunder in Trembley's resume. Berken is struggling. Man on 1st and 2nd, only one out. The guy at the home plate, Jim Thome, has hit 550+ home runs. Do you keep Berken in? You bet, Trembley would. Why do I have the feeling, I am not the only one who saw that home run coming?

Then he brings in Albers? What for? Three runs too late and a batter short.

Get rid of this looser!

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Pete's reply: I don't disagree with you on that particular move, though I'm going to nitpick you and some others on the blog to start spelling loser with one 'O.' I felt Berken was going to get scorched there and he was reaching a point in the game where he has struggled. I suppose the reason he stayed in is because up to that point he had pitched out of trouble a couple of times before and his pitch count was very low.

Maybe it's just me, but methinks young Mr. Berken might be better served by some more seasoning time in Norfolk.

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Pete's reply: I suspect he is going to be headed back soon.

mr berken certainly has not distinguished himself. He may be the odd man out when they summon from AAA. He has been given a fair chance. His nediocre stuff has him throwing far too many pitches.
A 6 ERA won't do.
Let's be honest here. Gripe all you want about DT. You canot be last in the league in pitching and expect any more than what this team is. The Yankee offense might be 500 with this staff.Ok, a few games over. But until this team gets at least into the middle of the pitching pack, this is pretty much what it's gonna be. There is no mystery here, and no magic wand.
You pitch you win.
ok. continue griping about the manager now.

I'm not certain whom is more responsible for the rebuilding process, management or front office. No doubt the players like him and respect him(not seen since Weaver), however, I have to wonder about some of the key moves, thus far. Bergeson is a plus, while Berken is a disaster(now 1-7), rarely makes it past 4 innings and is a homer giver. Trembley thinks highly of him and I can't see why. There has been much talk about buying bats and growing arms, well it's past itme to show what we have in the minors, I see two slots open in the starting pitching department "fill them now", then show some $$'s for a bat. With that said, if it don't happen which I suspect it won't "Fire" Trembley

DT should fire himself after tonight.

baez is now officially untradeable

how do you load the bases like that, 2 walks and a hbp?

I know the pitchers are pretty bad, but that's no way for even a bad pitcher to pitch to Thome. That folks is some awful pitching.

TI'm more than ever convinced that the Oriole offense suffers because it doesn't get to hit against the oriole pitching 18 times during the course of the year...

Every year I have this bet with a Yankees fan (he and I work at Lockheed Martin in Orlando) on O's vs Yanks. I have this year negotiated with Mike that I get 27 1/2 games. I can tell you the negotiation process is arduous. Anyway, the end result is "pay up," as it is every year, at Bubbalou's Bodacious Barbecue at Kirkman and Conroy-Windemere the day after the season.

Hell hath no fury like O's and Yanks fans dispossessed from their homeland.

I have just one request: Can someone please make this Berken person disappear from the face of the Orioles roster? This player single-handedly seems intent upon making my "pork basket" going from a free lunch that Milton Friedman said didn't exist to a $15 charge against my credit card.

Memo to Milton Friedman: If the Orioles finish within 27 games of the Yanks, there is a FREE LUNCH. Mine!

Memo to Jason Berken: Dude, I know you're trying, but can you either try harder or go back to Norfolk?

is anyone who pitched tonite going to be on this team next year? in september of this year?

Dirka
So he should've taken Berken out and he shouldn't have put Albers in.. not many good choices he could make apparently

Hey Nashville O's Fan,

Of course we don't know what was going to happen after Berken would be pulled out. We're only speculating.

It wasn't hard to figure out that Berken was struggling and the last guy you want him to face in that situation, out of the entire Sox roster, is Jim Thome. Anyone who knows that baseball is a game of stats, would put money on Thome pushing at least one run through. There is no question that it was a game changer.

If a Joe fan like me can see the scenario played out before my eyes before it happens, so should the manager.

Again, it is not automatic, but very likely. Trembley either pulls the trigger too soon, as we did with Bergeson vs. Redsox (Massacre 2), or too late like tonight.

It is easy to pile it on thick on a manager who gives you way too much material night in and night out.

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Pete's reply: You might also point out that people only notice that Dave supposedly pulled a guy too soon or too late when things go wrong -- which is called hindsight. I believe his correct pitching decisions far outweigh his bad ones, though I can't let Berken face Thome in that situation with a bullpen that is totally rested.

Is there a Mendoza line for pitchers? I think Rich Hill just crossed it.

So Berken only threw 80 pitches and was a double play ball away with a slow runner at the plate away from getting through the inning, but apparently it's obvious to pull him? Also, it's DT's fault none of the pitchers had it tonight? The bullpen did just as bad as Berken so what does pulling him early save you? You can't say it was just Berken that Thome was going to shell the way he was seeing the ball tonight. Using TSSH poster logic, DT should have known Mickolio was the only guy who could get outs and put him in during the 5th and let him close the game out and we'd win 8-6. Also, DT should have known 807 would be the winning pick 3 numbers tonight.

Also, good call on getting a young manager. Your MLB example of that working would be.........?

Everyone calm down!

STOP panicking. The PLAN is working. It may not seem like it is right now, but be patient. In Mc-Fail we trust. Tilman and Arieta will come down the milky way and straight down to Camden Yards, win 20 games a piece and make us contenders.

Once Bud Selig retires, Angelos will take over his place, send the Nationals back to Canada, and move the Orioles to DC.

Once in the National league we will be like the Brewers. We'll surprise everyone. We will be a power house. See, there is a master plan in addition to the McFail plan.

I have been quiet for about a week and a half after Trembley's outburst,waiting to see how things played out.After toight I have to once again put the blame on Trembley.After two atrocious walks and Jim Thome who ranks in the top 5 all time against the Orioles,and Berkins having struggled all game,there was no way in hades I would have let Berkins pitch to him.In front of 2 witnesses when it got to 2-0 I said get the launching pad ready here comes a home run.When he brought Baez in,who has not been good since the end of May and he hit a batter to load the bases,I said here comes a grand slam.The only good news for me is that Jim Thome is my DH on my fantasy team but my biggest complaint about Trembley is and always will be ,is that he has absolutely no feel for the pitching staff or the bullpen,an after two years,how much more do we have to see to believe it?He has done nothing with this team to improve it,and Andy McPhail didn't help him with the Pie,Hill and Eaton/Hendrickson moves.Plain and simple when you score 8 runs you should win.Baez has lost any trade value he once had and is already burnt out.If you don't believe me,look at his June and July Era and that doesn't include the load of inherited runners he has allowed to score.And to the previous idiot who talked about retread managers like Jim Tracy,have you seen what the Rockies have done since he took over?I'll take that any day over games like tonight.Does anybody have any idea what Mark Hendrickson's Era is out of the bullpen?Better than anybody else's but George Sherill's,and he is the long man as well.Why wasn't he brought in to face Thome,at least one of the two times.Way to go Dave,I gave you a shot,because you finally showeda little fire,but tonight just flat out clinched it for me.Why is Berkins starting tonight in the first place?It should have been Bergeson,Guthrie,and Hernandez for this series.I think Berkins game tonight makes the roster move a little easier.I think he will be a good pitcher,just not yet.By the way Toronto lost 4/5ths of their starting rotation before the season was a week old,are they in last place?

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Pete's reply: Of course, you've been quiet for the past week, Burt. The Orioles won four of the last five games before the All-Star break.

Tonight was bad.

DT didn't throw a fat one to Thome. BUT, even Jim Palmer called it before the 5th inning saying this is where Berken gets in trouble.

I dunno - seems to me times up with this one for this year.

Trembley knows what he's doing. He doesn't go out there and give up 12 runs to the White Sox. and Half the players on the team were not here at the start of the year. HE'S NOT THE PROBLEM. Firing him might be.

Pete,

If you want year 13 of less than a .500 record bring him back. But AM is much smarter than that, his credibility is resting on the success of the team and DT will be some minor league director of player personnel, just because he is a good guy!

I think Berken has been given a fair shot as a starting pitching for the O's, but he clearly needs to go back to the Tides. Kranny has seen enough of him, that when he does go down, he will know what to work on. My only concern is that if they keep him for a few more starts and he gets lit up, he will lose confidence which has plagued past pitching prospects.

I didn't like seeing Hill in a relief appearance because the O's offense was clearly clicking so why Hendrickson wasn't brought in, to at least try to keep the score the same, is beyond me. On the flip side, you get 14 hits and 8 runs, the fault is on the players, not DT.

I think Dave will keep his job unless this team goes on a 1-9 streak, but I don't think he is a lock by any means to keep his job for the rest of 09. Dave Jauss, is a good baseball man. I am not saying for the long haul, but it would be interesting to see someone with nothing to lose like Jauss (bench coaches aren't kept around when a new manager arrives), have a crack at these guys. DT, has nothing to lose, but he sticks to what he thinks is the right formula instead of saying, "I've got 80+ games to keep my job so you don't hustle, you don't play because I am probably going to be fired anyway." Just my take.

Did anyone notice Matt Wieters left 8 men on base tonight...be careful what you wish for.

As far as Trembley goes, the players have to start performing up to DT's rhetoric of "attention to detail" & "respecting the game of baseball". At times it seems the players have vetoed some of his better ideas (i.e. daily infield & having B-rob start dropping down some bunts). So, it was a positive sign when Roberts dropped a bunt against a tough lefty ahead of the Markakis homer.

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Pete's reply: Other than two pitches to Thome, I saw several things that were very positive. Huff beat out a couple of infield balls. Markakis and Jones both homered. Melvin had a big game. Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

There will be games like this. There are 162 games in the schedule, relax.

Berken is now 1-7. Daniel Cabrera had better numbers. Send Berken down for the rest of the year. To the comment left by "Slugger" Trembley didn't throw the home run balls, nor give up the walks, nor hit batters. Trembley isn't the one who dogs it to first base on ground balls or popups. My only gripe with Trembley is I feel when a player (see Roberts and even Mr All Star Adam Jones, don't run out a batted ball, they are removed from the game. Then I guess DT will be called "too tough" on the players. Everyone knew coming in to this season the O's were going to end up in last place. The team has a stiff at third base and one at first. The starting rotation except for Bergesen is loaded with AA and AAA guys (and that includes "Ace" Guthrie) Same goes for the pen except for Johnson and Sherrill. Give Trembley a chance with Tillman, Arrieta and Matusz and hopefully a couple of good corner infielders and see what he can do.

Pete, note that Markakis and Jones just got a four-day break from the regular schedule and both hit homeruns in the first game back.

Before the break neither one was hitting with any power. Could you or someone else ask DT if he thinks it was an accident that these guys are showing power after getting a rest?

Is it possible that he may start to grasp that he is overusing these guys and that even young guys need a couple of games off each month?

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Pete's reply: Though that's a small piece of evidence, I think he knows that he'll need to spell these guys a little more in the second half, and they won't be happy about it.

note this Trembley fans. When is the last time you saw an O's player successfully take the extra base? Good teams don't play scared. They know that game situations determine when to be aggressive.

A couple weeks back after all the baserunning blunders were coming to a head, DT was being interviewed in one of those absurd in game dugout spots. Andino on first, one out, Markakis lines one down the right field line. When Andino rounds second base, DT yells out "no, no" and then Andino makes it into third easily. DT then doubletalked his way thru the rest of the interview.

DT is afraid. Afraid to lose his job, afraid to lose respect from the veterans and established guys, afraid to be second guessed by the media (which is their job, in any city) Does anyone recall how DT tried the hit and run strategy constantly for about two weeks there in May? It was seldom successful, and he has abandoned it completely. A real manager has a style, and sticks with it thru thick and thin, understanding that in baseball you can't be right 100% of the time, but you can't be passive and afraid either.

Excuse me for going off topic here , but I was wondered If anyone here heard any latest updates on O's search for new spring training home? February is only seven months away.

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Pete's reply: It's still hush-hush, for some reason, which leads me to believe they'll spend one more spring in Fort Lauderdale. Ugh.

right on Jess, everyone needs a blow once in a while, especially the skinny guys - Roberts and Markakis. And whether you like Pie or not, he's had about 18 ab's since June 1 and has hit over .400. Its criminal that he sits that much; even Tom Shopay got to play more than that.

It's still hush-hush, for some reason, which leads me to believe they'll spend one more spring in Fort Lauderdale. Ugh.

Translation: No city is throwing themselves at the Orioles feet and John Angelos doesn't care enought to do anything.

He's outta here!

Pete,the reason I had ben quiet was not because the Orioles won four out of five before the break,it was because my computer crashed and Trembley had little or nothing to do with those wins.Like always,the reason we lose so often on the road is because he haslittle or no idea how to use his pitching staff,be it starters or relievers and the numbers bear that out.How good has Mark Hendrickson been since he went to the bullpen/How bad has Baez been for the last month and a half?Whatever trade value he has has been rendered meaningless.He's already burnt out and looks like the Baez of two years ago.But it's typical of you,at least in my opinion,that rather than debate any of the moves that were made,to say I didn't comment because the Orioles won 4 out of 5.Gee,you're wrong again.Glad to know you're a mindreader as well.

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Pete's reply: My wife tells me the same thing. The fact is, you can't constantly blame him for every loss and then say he has no effect on the wins. If the environment he creates can cause a loss, you have to give him the other side of the coin.

I've been a baseball fan for more years than I care to remember, and more often than not you can see events leading up to a manager being fired. Dave Trembley is doing a very good job as manager with a team that is finally coming together. Past years teams have been patchwork at best in one of the toughest divisions in baseball with the Yankees and Red Sox. Dave is molding this team into a unit that has a chance to bring glory years back to Baltimore along with the general manager who has been responsible for player acquisition in the draft and through trades. One of the problems many teams have is being quick to pull a trigger on firing a manager, and that team never has a chance to establish the stability necessary to become a true winner. Leave Dave in place. Have him on 1 year contracts year after year, but let him do his job which he has learned after all those years in the minors. Very few people can claim the experience he has as a professional manager.