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July 19, 2009

Orioles: The deal

If you've been following Oscar Salazar's performance the past few weeks, you've got to have mixed feelings about the deal that just sent him to the San Diego Padres for reliever Cla Meredith. Oscar was the ultimate good soldier, waiting for his turn without complaint and performing very well as a spot player recently.

He made some very timely contributions to some big comeback wins and endeared himself to fans here with his just-great-to-be-here attitude, but he really wasn't a player who was going to be the starting third baseman next year or some other cog in the rebuilding program. The Orioles were fortunate to get much of anything for either Salazar or Felix Pie, since they were up against a roster move to bring up David Hernandez and everybody knew they would have to waive one of them.

The only question is who goes out to make room for Meredith in the bullpen. Guessing Andy MacPhail takes the path of least resistance and sends Kam Mikolio back to Norfolk.

Posted by Peter Schmuck at 9:07 PM | | Comments (109)
Categories: Just baseball
        

Comments

If the O's were contending, Oscar would have been great. But on this club, getting a decent middle reliever for him is pretty good. And glad he's not staying in the AL. Good luck Oscar - we wish you well!

Some players--no matter their talent--are destined to be
well-traveled journeymen.

Oscar Salazar is one of those players, thus proving that the general managers in the game sometimes miss on a player who could have been a star, given the right opportunity.

Salazar is a hitting machine and a good "veteran" to have had on the bench. Will be missed.
On the other hand, we can use some (proven) bullpen help for the 2nd half to prevent the meltdowns of years past.... and Cla is only, what, 28?

Actually Cla just turned 26 in June

I'm amazed they got something for Salazar. I was fully expecting a DFA announcement.

MacPhail called Meredith a "Poor man's Chad Bradford" because he's a submariner, low velocity, deceptive pitcher who gives up plenty of hits but they're mostly on the ground. If the bullpen had a key dominant arm or two in the back of the rotation they can rely on, Meredith could be a good matchup guy when you need a groundball. His numbers will probably get ugly if you go too long with him, which is possible with our young rotation. Though he is certainly a useful player. At his age (26) he may be able to contribute to the youth movement. Not only that he hails from Richmond VA so he's really from the area.

Not a team changing move by any means, but I'm surprised we were able to get a player so useful and matches up with the makeup of the team.

26 actually. Too bad for Kam. He's pitched well enough to stay I think. Maybe Berken goes down and we figure out somethiing to bring Tillman up? I'd like to see that but I'm patient.

Hard to believe that Salazar is going to a team with a worse record than the O's. Good luck to him; I hope he gets the shot there that he never got here, although in a league without the DH that may not be the case. I think Salazar will be packaged in another deal down the line for the Padres. No doubt Meredith is happy about returning to a team close to his hometown of Richmond. I also think there will be a couple other moves by the O's before the deadline.

This isn't an assault on Pete, but,I'M PISSED OFF, YET ANOTHER "Tremblin Trembly" bonehead move! Give away a 419 hitter to bolster a bullpen that is overused by the manager a real life catastrophe with a submarine pitcher, give me a break, WHAT ABOUT THE STARTERS, we have two! What happened to Trembley's/McFAILS statement last week about how the Orioles "Grow Arms" in the minors, and buy bats. The management of the Orioles is worthless, right up there with the worthless owner, indicative of their 11th losing season in a row, this time in LAST PLACE right where they belong. Trading Oscar was a BONEHEAD move, Mora is a has been, 3HRs and 24 RBI all season, Oscar had 2 HR, and 6 RBI's in 17 games with a 419 batting average vs Mora's depressing 267 average. Fans do the math, spend $9 million a year on Mora who can't run a base for his life, or spend peanuts on a guy whom was a lifelong minor leaguer who truly wanted to be here. Oscar used his bat and not his mouth like Mora. Pete you state, Oscar wasn't like ever gonna play third base in 2010, then WHOM might I ask will? Oscar wasn't going to be a cog in the organizations plan, WHAT PLAN? I know, go for it, you feel the urge to tell me the greatest line of Baltimore lore, it's "SIMPLY THE ORIOLE WAY" RIGHT...PATHETIC.

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Pete's reply: Now calm down. Trembley's not the GM and Salazar is not a .419 hitter. He's a utility guy who was expendable and the only team where anyone would give a darn about his numbers is a team like this. I wish him the best. He did a good job in his 30-some at-bats, but let's not get carried away.

I think given Salazar's lack of options, this was a good deal for the Orioles, as Meredith should be a competent player, and can stabilize the bullpen.

I have been in favor of McPhail;s rebuilding, and on a macro level I ma very happy with the things the club is trying, but I do get frustrated with the Orioles' careless management of player options. We've had our hands tied several times by this issue, and it seems to me that the Orioles are not being very careful about this when they yoyo players to and from the minors. As it turns out, Salazar was a valuable player, but his value was compromised by the fact that the Orioles had played their hand with him.

I hope all these other call-ups - some of them rather knee-jerk - that they don't shoot themselves in the foot with some other players (David Hernandez?)

Hey Pete, whatever became of the 'player to be named later' in the Chad Bradford deal?

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Pete's reply: It was a guy named $20,000.

Hey Terry, is your last name Tiffee? That would explain a lot about your affinity for AAAA players. BTW, Salazar is not a .419 hitter, he's a lifetime .301 hitter, in not much of a lifetime--133 AB. Guess what that proves--nada. Just ask Jim Traber.

BRING BACK EARL
BRING BACK EARL
BRING BACK EARL

Guess you know hos I feel about Tremblin Trembley

C'mon... The O's couldn't throw a few extra bucks into the deal to get the guy's whole first name? Cheapskates!

nothing about the trade: but why couldn't they just send down Mikolio when Hernandez comes back?

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Pete's reply: They just don't think they can get by with 10 pitchers.

It will be interesting to see how Meredith does. He has a 4.17 ERA pitching in the NL West in the most pitcher friendly ballpark in the league. Now he's coming to the AL East to be in a not so pitcher friendly ballpark.
I guess its better than just outright losing Salazar for nothing.
Only time will tell who got the better end of this deal. But I'm betting its the Padres.

Thank God the poster "Terry" isn't running the ballclub. I'd like Salazar but he's been a role player throughout his career. One doesn't get that lifelong label if they are a true everyday player. Do you really think that Salazar's offense production (as you wrote: 2HR's, 6RBI, .419BA in 17 games would hold up throughout the course of a full season? Check out his full stats. 11 years in the minors (yes, 11 years) he's a career .287 hitter with 132 HR in those 11 years. I'll leave the math up to you. He's spent three years (a grand total of 133 AB's in the majors, never playing in more than 34 games in any of the three seasons (Baltimore, 2008; 5HR's, 15RBI with 13 K's in 81 AB's), and this is the guy you think should be an everyday starter? I like Salazar a lot, but he is suited for the role of pinch hitter and role player with an occasional sporadic start. You can find the stats I mentioned at
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=salaza001osc and
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/salazos01.shtml

Hey Terpfan, to answer your first question "no". By the way, yes Oscar was a 419 hitter in his shortened stint with the big league team, and by the way while I'm ditching you feel free to include the Norfolk Tides stats of 2009 as Oscar had 199 ab's this year alone, for a 372 average 10HR's and 43 rbi's, all while playing 1st base. The way I see it give this guy away and keep Felix Pie and his 200 average...GREAT MOVE!!! So I suggest you check your stat sheet more closely next time, before you challenge my numbers. Better yet stick with the terps, more your speed!

Hey Terry; what do Earl Weaver and Joe Altobelli have in common? They both have won a total of ONE world championship each. And last I checked, Weaver didn't do too well in his comeback years, and wanted out before his contract was up, and yet you still want him. Way too funny.

Trading Salazar for a submarine relief pitcher....not good. Not good. I hate to depend on submarine pitchers unless they're throwing 96-97 and I'm sure that's not the case. They get hurt quicker than pitchers who throw over handed or from a 3/4 slot. I like his age but not his ERA. He'll be on another team or in 1-2 years...probably the Atlanta Braves.

I was so looking forward to Salazar taking over at 3B in 2010. Allowing Mora to walk at season's end for a supplemental draft pick would be the best route for the organization to take.
I know Oscar is 31 but Melvin is 36 and don't fool yourselves into believing that any of the guys in AAA or AA are ready to play at the major league level. They aren't.

don't sugar coat it Terry....tell us how ya really feel....

I'd say something to Terry, but just wow. That about covers it. That and Earl doesn't do rebuilding, see his retirement after going under .500 in 86.

I'm ok with the trade though. I just assume lose Pie, but he's shown improvement I gess and has more speed than almost anyone on the roster. He's just seems like an OF version of DCab to me, where you talk about potential and then realize he's been here 5 years. Hopefully it works out for Salazar too. He did everything they asked of him.

Terry, first off Trembley didn't trade Salazar, so get your facts straight before you start bashing people for no reason. Secondly, we didn't buy an arm we traded for it. And guess what we are growing arms, the majority of our trades have been for pitchers. The two major trades we've had so far netted Patton and Tillman (two starters), and both our top 2 draft picks since Andy's taken over were used on starters. And finally, do you have any idea how many major league affiliates Salazar has been a part of during his career; SEVEN. The guy didn't even sniff the majors for 6 years before last year. Seven organizations passed on this guy and you want to call this move "BONEHEADED" based on a sample of 133 ABs. Wow, just wow.

So, we get rid of a part-time guy hitting 400, much of it in the clutch, while hanging on to a pitcher who should be out of baseball (Baez) and a guy who never should have been here in the first place (Berken). Yep, Pete, sounds like the Orioles to me.

Baez has had a very good year up until the last two weeks. "out of baseball"??? Are you kidding me? If we released Baez there would be about 27 teams that would pick him up.

While this deal makes sense from a GM perspective of trading older chips for younger ones, I wish AM would make a commitment towards keeping the gamers instead of the guys who are always complaining about how they need consistent at-bats to put up numbers. Plus, I think we could have gotten a very good return for the price of Oscar over the next 5 years.

No way, Bill. Not with Baez's arm history and ridiculous salary. He's reached the end of the line. Outside of 2 seasons, he's NEVER been good.

Sorry Bill,get your facts straight,Baez hasn't gotten hardly anybody out since the end of May.Check out his ERA forJune and July.And that doesn't count all the inherited runners he's let score.Send Berkins down,get him some more experience,send Hill down,or release him,he'll probably clear waivers,and Gathright has better stats than Pie.And is a much better defensive ballplayer.I wish you well Oscar,too bad you never got a chance with Mr"Never make a move in the late innings"Trembley unless it's to pull a pitcher leading 5-1 after 8 innings,who retired 14 out of 15 batters.I agree with the poster that somebody should have been out there talking to Bergeson as soon as the error happened,and why was Huff not playing first,was it like he needed a rest,we just came back from a 4 day break,for crying out loud?Other than that one pop up Aubrey muffed on,he's done a very good job at first,and I expect him to have a very good second half,over the last month he has hit a ton of rockets right at people.Hopefully the percentages turn around the second half.My bet is he'll still lead the team in RBI's by the end of the year,if he's still here.We won today because Trembley didn't have to do anything.For that matter he could have let Guthrie finish the dang game.Hill and Berkins starting against NY and Boston unless another move is made.It could get ugly.Anybody seen Brian Bass lately?

Factoid...um Earl Weaver may have only won one World Series, but his teams were in 4 with multiple playoff appearences and he was the manager of the winningest part of the Orioles history. Don't be a fool.

Good luck to Oscar..., at least going to the NL he'll get more oppurtunities to make a difference.... the man is awesome off the bench

terry if you don't like the product don't watch.... seems pretty simple to me

well ... i for one am happy that none of you are running the o's ... thank god.

Terry its one thing to be upset at the move but aren't you miss placing the anger a bit? How did Dave Trembley have anything to do with the move of Salazar? If you asked him personally I bet he would tell you he wished he could have kept Salazar and found more opportunities to use him. Truth is there were other hitters who are in front of him unfortunately and there wasn't really much of an opportunity to get him AB's.

As far as the organizations plans you gotta be kidding me. Do you not consider getting Jones, Tillman, Sherril, Scott Arietta and the rest a good deal for the team. Seattle has no intention of resigning Bedard and Tejada was a good hitter at times but had effort issues and wanted to win. We got an amazing CF who looks like he can be a face of the franchise in the future for him, a great minor league arm, and a decent closer and potential trade piece. Not every move Andy makes is gonna be amazing. Some moves are made for the sake of making them see Andino-Penn trade, however by and large I believe this organization is much better off in Andy's hands than it was two years ago and I for one am encouraged and will continue to endorse his rebuilding process.

I just don't get how people like Terry can still call our GM "MacFail" when every baseball scout says our system has a lot of promise, and is a lot better than in previous years, and the Orioles could be the next Devil Rays. What has Andy done that's been so bad? And what do you want him to do instead, go sign someone like Albert Belle or trade for the next Glenn Davis? I guess some people just have to complain.

~~Now he's coming to the AL East to be in a not so pitcher friendly ballpark.~~

Not sure how much that affects a submariner who throws groundballs supposedly.

~~ They get hurt quicker than pitchers who throw over handed or from a 3/4 slot.~~

I thought the conventional wisdom was the opposite, that submarining is a more natural, less stressful on the joint delivery??

Guys,
I don't think it's worth arguing with certain posters. Ultimately its fans like Terry who aren't actually the enemy. It's just another side of fan frustration that we all share and express differently. His arguments don't really make sense, nor does he care if they do. You can't win an emotional argument with reason. In my experience when things are going good, and the horizon seems open to possibilities, those "emotion" fans can be a boon. When they get behind a team, no opposing fan can reason them out of supporting their players. It goes both ways.

So the O's traded Salazar for 26 yr old relief pitcher Meredith? Sounds like a good trade for both teams . The Padres need some offense and the O's need an young relief pitcher who may be part of MacPhail's rebuilding O's . Im not gonna make any judgements till we see how both players perform first . Thanks and Good Luck Salazar , Meredith , Welcome abroad .

Andy is purely, the man! How he got anyone for a guy that was going to be released, let alone Cla Meredith is beyond me. Meredith is a good pitcher that will help right now and in the future, as he is only 26 yrs old. Bradford really worked well for the O's because he was so different from any of the other relievers so I am hoping that Cla will have the same results, and we need the help because the 6th and 7th, have been shaky lately.

I like Oscar, but when a guy gets so little playing time even when he performs well on a bad team, he isn't part of the future so hopefully he can go to the Padres, and tear it up because Oscar is a good guy.

BaltoJim, loved the line about Cla, as maybe we can use the Bradford money from the Rays, to buy a Y.

Pete, I know you are in favor of trading George Sherrill. I am not, but even if you are right and JJ, is a lights out closer, aren't you worried that the O's, really don't have a guy that can get him the ball? With Ray hurt and Perez about to have surgery, I don't see the O's loaded with BP guys. I am all for making this team better, but if 2010 is the year when the O's make the 1st step towards .500, I want a top notch setup man and a closer, which we have. If Ray was at 100% and Perez was at 100%, I might feel differently, but the 8th and 9th innings, will be the ones that separate the bad teams form the great teams, and I think it's step back and one that could really hurt this club.


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Pete's reply: I'm not campaigning to trade Sherrill, but if you can get real value for him, I think you have to do it. If you look at the window for closers -- except Mariano Rivera and a few other elites -- it's probably a stretch to see Sherrill closing in the playoffs for the Orioles. I think they would be able to figure out the setup situation.

Good luck to Oscar. He never got a chance with the Orioles. And they get a NL reliever in return, yick. The team hasn't had great luck with NL relievers in the past.

The Padres needed a middle infielder NOW. Good pickup for them. Someone mentioned Bradford. I'm going to keep asking this until I get an answer. Who was the "Player to be Named Later" in the Bradford deal? I keep asking and no seems to know who this mystery man is. Any ideas? I mean we practically insured the Rays pennant with Bradford pitching so effectively for them, you'd think they'd someone halfway decent to the O's in thanks for our kindness.


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Pete's reply: Jay, how many times do I have to answer this question. There was no PTBNL in the Bradford deal. The deal was for the $20,000 waiver price. I don't know why it was announced otherwise, but the O's got nothing but cash and will get nothing but cash. It was a salary dump that everybody, including Andy MacPhail, ended up regretting.

I'm the 'other' Terry here(with a P) that posts fairly regularly here. I am also somewhat against the Salazar trade but can see the logic of the move. AS the saying goes, you can never have enough arms and Oscar didn't really seem to have a spot with the O's. I can't see where he's going to see much playing time in SD.

Salazaar was a good piece of the puzzle - excellent pinch hitter. But he didn't have as much power as Wiggy. I hope the next roster move is to send Berken down to allow Hernandez to re-join the team. Berken and Wieters were brought up too soon. Tillman is not on the 40-man roster. Waters and Liz are the only available starters who remain on the 40-man roster.

"(Baltimore, 2008; 5HR's, 15RBI with 13 K's in 81 AB's), and this is the guy you think should be an everyday starter? I like Salazar a lot, but he is suited for the role of pinch hitter and role player with an occasional sporadic start"

Not trying to nitpick here "Truth be Told" but I'm failing to see your logic anymore than Terry's. If you averaged out those numbers for a starter over a full season say 600 ABs, Salazar's 2008 statline would look something like:
600/80= 7.5
7.5*5hr= 38
7.5*15rbi= 112RBI's
also 13K*7.5= 98 Not a high strikeout total at all.
Granted 38HRS and 112RBIS is in all likelyhood out of Salazar's reach, but the numbers don't exactly support your conclusion.

Does anyone think they retained Pie over Salazar because they have received numerous inquiries about Luke Scott and may trade him?

The bottom line is Trembley placates the vets so Salazar wasn't going to get playing time. We had a whole slew of lefties and Oscarbarely played. It shows trembley doesn't care about winning,only keeping the vets happy.


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Pete's reply: Well, it might show that Trembley viewed Salazar exactly the way everybody else has in his career. He's considered a 4A player. I liked him, but if he's your starting 3b next year, you're moving backwards.

Hey Terry, since you're so good with stats, why don't you address those summarized by Truth be Told, which do an even better job of supporting exactly what I said--Salazar is 30+ year old AAAA player who has proven nothing with regard to being an every day major leaguer and is long past the point where people prove that. He's hardly worthy of the vitriol you spewed about him being traded. And, as far as who should check what, the stats I cited are all correct. The 31 at bats you rely on show even less than the 133 he has had for his career. My point was simply to call him a .400 hitter is simply meaningless given its basis.

Cannot be too upset about this one. The Orioles got a decent relief pitcher. Salazar will get more playing time, so it is good for him. The reason the Orioles kept Pie is because of the potential and age, not because of any future trades. The Orioles also have younger hitters that are doing well in the minors, that will get a call up. I think it shows some improvement for the club that they feel that they can make trades like this. This trade improves the bullpen, and who knows what else they may do.

Jay - the PTBNL in the Bradford trade question was asked and answered so many times that the blog writers have stopped answering it. In fact, in some places even asking it is like throwing out a punchline to a well known joke, or a classic line from a movie.

Since you seem to be sincerely looking for an answer, I'll give it to you straight. The Orioles received "cash considerations" to finalize the deal. No, that does not mean a ballplayer named "Cash", either first or last name. It just means the team got some small amount of money. And if it in any way helped keep the Yankees out of the playoffs and the Red Sox out of the Series, it was a great deal as far as I am concerned.

This trade does not set well with me. Salazar was a great hitter. I would have gave up Pie instead of Salazar. As for Meredith, I don't know too much about the guy, but just by looking at his stats (4.17 ERA in the National League?) and with coming over to the hit happy American League? I just wish Cla the best of luck and Oscar great success in the NL.

I’m happy for Oscar! He’s in the NL now, a much better situation for him.

It is a shame that a player who gives you production everytime you call his name to the plate is not given adequate playing time and it is traded.

What happened to rewarding players based on performance. Melvin Mora should have been benched all first half of the season, and Salazar should have played. Just as Wieters should be benched or sent down to the minors right now. Every time Greg Zaun has substituted, he has played well, including a couple of home run in the past two weeks. Goes to show you that we are not playing to win, but to experiment.

Did we just lose more flexibility on the bench? I guess Pie will be getting more playing time, which is not a bad thing. We have to find out exactly what we have there. Mr. Andino will probably get some more time as well, and we know that's a good thing. I like Andy's take on the fact that we got a major-league ready arm for the increasingly worn out bullpen.

It is a shame that a player who gives you production everytime you call his name to the plate is not given adequate playing time and is traded.

What happened to rewarding players based on performance? Melvin Mora should have been benched all first half of the season, and Salazar should have played. Just as Wieters should be benched or sent down to the minors right now. Every time Greg Zaun has substituted, he has played well, including a couple of home run in the past two weeks. Goes to show you that we are not playing to win, but to experiment.

Seriously? We have people crying about Wieters too? Every time a kid is not hitting .350 after less then 150 ABs it must be time to drop them.

Hell Pie still doesn't have 150 ABs yet.

The Orioles are not contending this year. Get over it! This is a season to let the young guys work their way up.

These guys are young and need time to grow. That type of thinking would have had Markakis back in the minors his rookie year.

And what is with the love of a 31 yr old player without a position? Remember this guy passed through waivers at the beginning of the year. The O's got a MAJOR LEAGUE RP for a guy any team could have had for free 3 months ago.

I think this deal works for both teams as well, but i do like oscar alot. But this is a business folks and moving oscar was a viable move at this moment. No we cannot move mora unless the team getting him wants to take that financial hit, also is true for baez, Trembley plays the guys who make the big contracts, period. would you have several million sitting while a couple of thousand gets the majority time, and you cannot move that big contract? no you would not. besides, several of the big contracts are in their final years, and we can see replacements primed and ready for the next several years..

plus understand, that with the strides mcphail has made, maybe some of these 2nd and 3rd rotation guys may take a chance on us next free agency.. because of the moves made this year.

things could become very interesting in the next few years.

GO O's

'O's never gave Oscar a chance ' , 'Oscar should been a fulltime starter' , ' Oscar was a great hitter ' . I admit these comments are killing me , LOL.
First , let me explain why O's traded Oscar . The guy was a minor league JOURNEYMAN . The O's were only ML experience on his resume , with what , 133 at bats? O's just found that right handed bat pinch hitter was Oscar's best career option. The Padres got Oscar because their team AVG was .232 and they needed right handed bat to PINCH HIT . The NL Padres dont have the DH , so Oscar simply will perform the same duties that he performed with the O's . And rebuilding teams do not give starting jobs to 31 yr old minor league lifers .

Allan,

This country was built on second chances and I think Salazar will shine in SD. The fact that he is a JOURNEYMAN as you call him, should not be a reason not to give him a spot in the lineup when he deserves it. George Sherril was a journey man; however he became an allstar. Let's give playing time to those who can produce and get us wins, instead of experimenting with players that could one day reach what we think is their potential. In this regard I wish baseball was more like football, where you have to earn your spot. What more could have Salazar done to earn a spot in the roster? We keep benching Luke Scott when he has been on fire, when you have Mora, Wieters, Izturis, Wigginton who have become automatic outs.


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Pete's reply: Slugger. Luke Scott has never been "benched." He has not played every inning of every game. Just a thought. Choosing sime games for him to sit just might have something to do with how good his numbers are.

why do they keep sending hernandez down when Berken clearly has issues to work out? Sure, hernandez throws 100 pitches in 5.2 innings, but Berken isn't making it out of the 4th.

I think the MLB should give the O's a special AAAA exemption. We would be able to have Hill, Pie, Berken, Liz, D.Cab, Salazar, Bigbie, Penn, Matos on the roster... they could play JV games before the big games. Their parents could come watch them play. it would be great!


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Pete's reply: Hernandez was only sent down because of his place in the rotation. He's right back up. It had nothing to do with his performance relative to anyone else. He was the one who bought the club a few days to get the roster situation straightened out. There would be no question they would choose Hernandez if it was between him and Berken.

Peter, what's the story on Guthrie's illness being reported in the O's website. Were you aware of this?


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Pete's reply: Yes, we wrote about it before the break. Remember when he left real early in the game and everybody thought his arm was bothering him? It was reported after the game that he was suffering from dizziness, apparently from a virus. He was scratched from his next start and returned to the rotation yesterday.

salazar came in a got some clutch hits for us no doubt, but he is not an everyday player.. people need to stop clinging to this. we got a decent and young reliever in exchange, I am all for it.

how do you think the Pads are going to use him? he is going to be a 4th OF/5th INF pinch hitter type in the NL. He is a role player at best, I think it is amazing they got what they could for him.

Good trade.

No he's going to replace Adrian Gonzalez at 1B when the Pads trade him. Because Salazar in .400 hitting 40 HR superstar waiting to be given a chance.

Shamrock,

I love the idea of the JV games. Very funny.

But, as to sending Hernandez down...this time it had nothing to do w/ performance. He never missed a spot in the rotation due to being sent down. The all star break allowed mcphail more time and flexibility to move salazar to sd. Hernandez went down because he had options and wasn't going to come up in the rotation until today.

Otherwise we would have had to DFA either pie or salazar and risk losing them for nothing in return. Instead we were able to keep a full bullpen during these games and get a nice relief pitcher in return for salazar. all the while hernandez never really missed a start. it was a crafty temp move, but it didn't have anything to do w/ hernandez's performance.

I am glad to see more positive posts these days. Too many people think they sound smarter if they accentuate the negatives.

McPhail is a first rate GM who has brought the team a long way, they are consistently being better and in 2010 could be the Rays 2008. It could happen.

To all Salazar nay-sayers,

How to do you know he is not worthy of playing everyday? He was never given a chance. If he can come in with limited at bats and have a .419 batting average with a couple of homers in half a season, you don't think he deserves a chance? But Weiters does? Because everyone is so pumped up and sold on a prospect whose stock is more overinflated than AIG's?

Give me a break!

To all the complainers -

I know it's been tough to be an O's fan for the past ten years, but has it really been so bad that you've placed all your hope in a 31-year-old career minor leaguer?

Let's just assume, for the sake of our collective sanity, that Andy MacPhail and David Stockstill know a whole heck of a lot more about baseball than we do and that getting a 26-year-old reliever for said 31-year-old career minor leaguer (who was out of options) was a good move.

OK 'b',

By your player-age logic. The White Sox should trade Jim Thome for some no-name reliever because he is 39 years old.

Not saying that Salazar is Thome. All I'm saying is that he was never given a chance. A sports team goal is to win. To win you have to use the people who have shown to you they can play, not the ones you hope they can play.


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Pete's reply: Well, actually, you were saying Salazar is Thome if you consider that argument logical.

Oscar Salazar was a good role player who would woefully overexposed if he was in a starting position. Yes he contributed to the club but not to the extent that he wasn't expendable. Felix Pie might not be a great player either but he plays centerfield. If oft injured Adam Jones gets hurt who plays there if you keep salazar rather than pie? wigginton, reimold. I think this deal is a precursor to another deal or two, baez, sherrill. i think Mcphail asked for a reliever cause if we trade two of the current ones we'll need their replacements.I think mcpahail has done a commendable job since taking over, at least you feel like someone with a brain is running the team, i.e flanagan and beattie era or God forbid Sid Thrift. rip. m.

Slugger

You made some good arguments against my labeling Salazar as nothing more than career minor league journeyman role player (or 4th OF/5th INF pinch hit as Shamrock termed Salazar) .

You asked what Salazar has to do to earn everyday starting job? Maybe MacPhail/Trembley might give you better answer BUT here is my answer . If Luke Scott cannot play everyday( you asked that question also) , then how is Salazar gonna have opportunity everyday? Weiters is a catcher , Izturis is shortstop , Mora has $ 8 million salary at 3b , Wigginton is only player Salazar could/maybe outperform and even Wiggy is an utilty/role player himself .

For your theory/prediction/belief that Salazar can be everyday starter ML player , the Padres would have move their incumbent starter out and insert Salazar to play regularly . Only then , we will see which side have winning argument/proof on Salazar . We just have wait and see what Padres do with Salazar . Either way , I wish Salazar the best !

I wanst saying it as much about hernandez' performance as I was Berken... when they sent hernandez down the 1st time, they said he had things to work on... now it is berken moreso with the problems

I get the option game they played with DHern, but I think Berken is hurting them much more just having him here. I think they could have rearranged things a little better to get Hernandez more looks with the big club, especially since this is the 2nd time it happened. but i think the 1st time they did this, Berken pitched slightly better than hernandez.

Slugger -

For your consideration:

Wieters Minor League Career Stats:
.343 avg, .438 obp, .576 slg, 1.014 ops
32 hr (1 per 18 ab), 121 rbi in 578 ab
106 k, 102 bb = 1.04 k/bb
22-23 years old while in minors

Salazar Minor League Career Stats:
.287 avg, .348 obp, .469 slg, .817 ops
132 hr (1 per 30 ab), 682 rbi in 4047 ab
670 k, 349 bb = 1.92 k/bb
20-31 years old while in minors, career years as 29, 30-year-old

I'm not saying that Salazar shouldn't have got a chance to start full time in the bigs, but to compare Salazar to Wieters is laughable.

Slugger -

What are you talking about? Just because I mentioned a player's age, my argument automatically turns into "old guys should be traded for relievers"?

Where the heck did that come from?

~~ I hate to depend on submarine pitchers unless they're throwing 96-97 ~~

Yeah I'm pretty sure you forgot to tell the American League that in 1980-1987 while Dan Quisenberry (who threw NO WHERE near that) was racking up the saves and getting MVP and Cy Young votes

I hate to see Salazar go, but if he wasn't going to get to play, the O's are better off with someone who will be allowed to contribute. And with this starting pitching staff, they need major league relief pitchers. Baez and Albers are always one pitch away from going down with injury.

I do think that Gathright deserves a chance, though. He's better than Pie.

Relax B,

This is nothing to have your blood pressure up about. We're just having fun playing baseball GMs here. Counter-arguments are welcomed. Good point about Wieters-Salazar comparison in the minors.

Regards

Slugger -

Just wondering where the Thome comment came from, since it made no sense.

Does it matter. Slugger seems think he's smarter than everyone involved in baseball. Since he's the only one who sees Wieters as a bust.

As a lad old enough to remember Earl Weaver and playing in the World Series, I cannot be excited when a rare commodity like a competent pinch hitter heads off yonder. They are rare birds indeed, and the great Oriole teams would not have been quite as great without pinch hitters like Crowley, Pat Kelly, Jim Dwyer, Curt Motton and John Loewenstein. And why we are talking baseball, Pete, why did Berken start Friday night when Bergeson, Guthrie and every other pitcher was rested and ready?

..............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Because they wanted to give the other guys another day or two and there was no significance to Friday's game. It's not the first game of the playoffs, for God's sake.

Jim i completly agree. gathright is like trearing it up down there.

Hi Bobby,

It was just an example, to provide a counter-argument for the sake of conversation.

I don't think Wieters is a bust. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. for the first year. I do think however that his stock was overinflated. It was a desperate move to bring fans back to the ball park. Also, Zaun helped that decision by playing very badly.

I'm of the school of thought where you should earn your status before they put you in the pedestal. Wieters is a good kid and has handled himself pretty well, but the hype has not helped him. The O's should have toned down the rhetoric. I'm afraid they're doing the same with Tilman, Matsuz and Arieta, just to keep the money flowing and the fans interested. This however puts too much pressure on young players. Look at how well Reimold has performed with everyone tuning in to watch the Weiters Show.

It is very rare that the GM or management miss on a 31 year old career minor league player. You never know I hope it works out for him. But remember this much Oakland, Detroit, New York Mets, Kansas City, Angels and Cleveland gave up on him before the Orioles had to trade him. This is the first time in Salazar's career that he has been traded. Not really a good comparison to George Sherrill either who pitched in 200 games before he was 31, all with the same club, he was found in a independent league when he was 25.

We all realize why they had to trade him, I am sure it was a tough decision by management, but they clearly have Andino who is excellent with the glove, Wigginton who has a lot of MLB experience and has done a good job playing 5 positions for the Orioles this year, except for that one play the other night at first base. Plus Wigginton at the same age as Salazar has played somewhere near 900 major league games and Salazar has played 60 MLB games. What would you rather have?

Pie is not going to be traded for nothing he is 24, and the Orioles are obviously still thinking he is a prospect.

You have to have a back up catcher, Zaun is great in that role. The Orioles because their rotation is so young have to carry 12 pitchers and rotate guys to Triple A. If it was a solid five in the rotation that would not be an issue but that is where they are at the moment.

Cannot believe Wieters name even came up in this conversation, that is crazy on it's own.

McPhail has a plan, Salazar is not in the long term plan to make this club competitive in the next two years. Too bad, I liked what I saw, but sometimes it is a numbers issue and that is what this is. 0 options left.

Luke Scott has twice the # home runs as Markakis in 130 fewer at bats, and a higher batting average. So his production is somehow because Trembley doesn't overuse him? Lets take the same argument and rest Jones, Nick and Brian more.

Also, ridiculous to project because the man Salazar is labeled a "journeyman" then he could never be productive in a platoon situation. Look at Fernando Tatis, who was in Baltimore for a bit.. Well, Millar got all the at bats he could have gotten here, so he's gone to the Mets to produce and Millar is hitting his .230 w/ the Jays.

I hope and believe Salazar will be a productive major league hitter w/ that vicious level swing. Thanks to Trembley, he never got a chance here.


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Pete's reply: The game really is a little more complicated than looking at everybody's numbers and determining their playing time from that. Yes, it is possible that Luke is being used correctly and that maximizes his numbers. It's also possible that Markakis would have benefitted from the same treatment.

slugger...

it wasn't the O's "toning up the rhetoric" with wieters. it was the 40k+ fans that showed up for his debut, the bloggers and evey baseball news source across the country hyping him.

MacPhail has preached nothing but patience with this team.

Since Salazar was a .419 hitter, he should continue that way, similar to how Berken was a 2.25 ERA guy after 2 starts.

perfect trade. Sold high! the people complaining are the same people who cashed out their stock portfolios AFTER the crash occured.

Pete: FoxSports recently wrote this about Markakis:
"Although great, it's becoming clear Nick Markakis may never develop into a 30-HR hitter."

What do you think? Do other front office people concur?

PNC


............................................................................................
Pete's reply: I think he was originally projected as a doubles-hitting guy who would hit for high average and maybe hit 20-25 homers. I don't think that has really changed, but he'll hit 30 in a season at some point.

It's funny how all the people who wanted Salazar to stay, focused on his offense. Not once has anyone mentioned his defense. He really was confined to one position and he was an average one at best. Yes he could have been great coming off the bench but you do it at the risk of limiting your defense.

Pete: FoxSports recently wrote this about Markakis:
"Although great, it's becoming clear Nick Markakis may never develop into a 30-HR hitter."

What do you think? Do other front office people concur?

PNC

Joey Gathright only has three out of five baseball tools and does not have a good eye for the plate. Even though I do not think anyone on the Orioles now could catch him in a race, he does not have the power or the arm. Really not a good eye at the plate either, kind of like Patterson with less power.He is an emergency guy at most, and has done well this year for Norfolk but really look how Pie tore up the minors and he is four years younger, I think the Orioles are being pretty smart with Pie right now. Believe me I was not happy with Pie starting but being a bench and role player and only being 40 days away from expanding rosters, they have managed the Pie situation well. It is not like the Orioles are paying him millions, it is a roster spot. The rotation and options left on all the rookie pitchers has been managed well.

Shamrock,

If Peter Angelo's TV and Radio announcers didn't rave about every Wieter's at bat in the minors, you would not see 40K fans for his debut.

Again, not a knock on Wieters. Just another miscalculated move from O's front office that is willing to sacrifice a prospect's confidence for a quick buck over a weekend series.

.............................................................................................
Pete's reply: The Orioles were criticized heavily by the vast majority of posters here and on other message boards for trying to save money by holding Wieters back. Now they were just going for a quick buck by saying he's a great prospect? I'm confused.

Salazar could have played first for a season or two, as we have no future 1B option - Huff shouldn't be brought back. This team needs offense - it's ranked in the bottom third of the AL in runs most of the past 11 seasons, and again this season (we have to compare with the AL, not the DH-less NL.) Last in our division, of course. Salazar provides offense, especially off the bench. When will this organization value offense as much as pitching, the way winning organizations, including the great run of Orioles teams, do? We won't win until that happens.

Meredith is being hit to the tune of .324. We need another reliever who adds fuel to opponents' rallies.

But at least Andino is still up here, with his weak average, terrible OBP, and lack of power.


.............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Again, I'm confused. The team needs offense, but Huff should not be brought back and Salazar should have replaced him at first?

Brandon Snyder isn't an option at 1st? I'd rather have him playing there than Salazar.

"as we have no future 1B option"

Brandon Snyder? Anyone? I know you can't screen the posts Pete, but sometimes I wish you could.


.............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Well, I do to some extent, but I'm not going to screen out content unless it's really offensive or is some kind of spam.

Brandon Snyder is still a prospect that was doing well at double and now struggles at triple a, but he is a young prospect still at the young age of 22, he probably will have another full year of triple a baseball ahead of him. I do not think the Orioles would go with him as the starting first baseman for next year. I guess the next 70 games for the Orioles will be important for Huff, and that is a long time. I do not think that they ever saw Salazar as an everyday first baseman.

I can't even believe that this is being debated. Salazar is 31 years old. If he's starting for you next year at age 32, that's not really anything to hang your hat on.

His numbers are great, but it's all home generated, he loves hitting in Camden Yard, and is only OK on the road, but that could be small samples as well.

Meanwhile, Meredith has been a decent reliever for a number of years now. He's not great but he's a valuable cog to any bullpen, and someone you can build on. Plus he should not get that much via arbitration, his numbers are OK but not great for a reliever. If management is any good, he will be signed before it reaches arbitration hearing.

Are things that desperate in Baltimore to weep tears over a 31 year old journeyman having a nice small samples explosion? I would hope not, with Weiters, Reimold, Jones, and Markakis, plus Tillman, Matusz, Arrietta, and Bergeson, things are getting better and should be better really soon.

The better teams need a good bullpen, and all you really have right now is Sherrill and Jim Johnson. Meredith would add useful veteran presence in your bullpen, plus complete the setup situations, with Meredith and Johnson handling 7/8 and Sherrill the 9th.

And for that, you give up a 31 year old journeyman. I would love for the Giants to get a player as good as Meredith for Andres Torres.

Weiters has been hitting .270/.331/.416/.746 with 3 HR in 89 AB since June 9th. He's a little up and down but he's a rookie, trying to find his bearings, and for a while now, he has been hitting OK for a catcher with plus power.

Bobby,

where in the world did you get the notion that Salazar is "confined to one position". The guy can and has played just about everywhere but catcher in his professional career. That's probably why he's lasted so long in professional baseball, thus sparking this whole debate because it took him until his late 20's to really come into his own with the bat.
I'm not against the trade exactly, but I am one of those who wishes that Oscar got some more opportunities with the big club here in Baltimore. I just can't understand why people keep posting false statements that couldn't be farther from the truth to support a silly arguement in the first place.

The more major league pitcher's the orioles can accumulate the better off they will be. To sacrafice a 31 year old minor leaguer, is a steal for the orioles. Great move. Now work on getting Ian Snell in an orioles uniform.

slugger...

MrAngelosSportsNetwork is technically not the Orioles... they are not different than 105.7 promoting games. They need to get people to watch and try to do so via marketing. He is marketable. The talking heads are journalists, for the team specific network, they are supposed to be homers for them a bit too.

If the O's had Matt Wieters jersey, bobblehead, and autograph day as a part of Matt Wieters: THE DEBUT WEEKEND, I would agree that they are promoting him as such. MacPhail was realistically excited, but not reserving space for him in Cooperstown just yet.

It has been fan and journalist hype, not team hype.

I'll admit I whiffed on that. But I know for a fact he's a downgrade defensively wherever he's put. He's valuable but not irreplacable.

Pete's reply: The Orioles were criticized heavily by the vast majority of posters here and on other message boards for trying to save money by holding Wieters back. Now they were just going for a quick buck by saying he's a great prospect? I'm confused.

AMEN PETE! Thats what I like about you... level headed common sense. I miss Steve Davis too. He didn't want to irrationally guillatoine (sp) Angelos or blame Brian Billick for the woes in their life.

Here's to seeing Tillman next month!

............................................................................................
Pete's reply: What is it you would like to see? I'm still confused.

I have a feeling Salazar may be the next Raul Ibanez. A "AAAA" player who matured at a later age and became a star when given regular playing time.


............................................................................................
Pete's reply: I don't see a real parallel there. By the time Raul Ibanez was 31, he had more than 1500 major league at-bats.

I liked Salazar a lot. He's exactly the kind of guy I root for. I think that's where the sturm and drang of fans is coming from.

I acknowledge that MacPhail got good value for him. But I'll bet you this: Salazar will produce more per plate appearance than Melvin Mora over the remainder of their MLB careers. Salazar reminds me of Mora, but he's younger and cheaper.

I would have liked to see the O's put Mora on waivers. If somebody claimed him, fine. Let Salazar play the rest of the season in his spot. Neither one is the answer for the future. The O's could save the rest of Mora's salary and lessen the endless stream of stories about him that you, Peter, are going to have to write this winter.

Unrealistic, perhaps, because talk radio would have been all over the O's for dumping a "name player." And anyway, that ship has sailed. Still, keep an eye on Salazar and Mora's stats for the rest of the year.

What's wrong with you people? Crying because MacPhail traded away a career minor leaguer, who just happened to be on our roster because some of the youngsters aren't ready yet, for a pretty decent ground-ball relief pitcher.

In my eyes this move was absolutely brilliant. We get a guy who's only 26 years old and his career ERA is under 4, which is a good bit better than most members of our bullpen has been in years, with the exception of a freak great season a few seasons ago.

I would've been happy to get "a player to be named later" for Salazar considering he's 31 years old and at best would have one - two season tops with us if that. And that's if, a huge IF he somehow managed to hold up over a season.

We'll soon find out if he can hold up or not in San Diego but I doubt it. It took him 13 years to reach the big leagues and there's a reason for it.

Pete,

You said: "The Orioles were criticized ... trying to save money by holding Wieters back. Now they were just going for a quick buck by saying he's a great prospect? I'm confused."

Both things are true and both things contribute to Angelos fat pockets. If the O's believed Wieters was worth the hype they built up for months, he should have started the season in Baltimore. They held back for obvious money and contractual reasons in the future, by postponing his arbitration.

When they decided to bring him up, they didn't opt for something quiet, like a start on the road. At a time when the club was hurting in attendance they announced it on a Wed that Wieters was going to start that week. Coincidentally, when Wieters started, ticket prices that weekend sky rocketed. What's there to be confused about? In both cases Angelos made money.

...............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Oh yeah, it's a lot easier to debut on the road for a team with the worst road record in the American League. Generally, when fair people criticize or second-guess something, they give the object of their criticism a window to be right. I commend you for finding a way to argue that whatever the team had done would have been wrong. That's freaking inspired. They should have brought him up on Opening Day to play in front of a full house, but since they didn't, they rushed him to the majors and let him play in front of a big crowd in late May. Brilliant.

Lance.. I agree... good trade. Salazaar has never been exposed by playing regularly and being scouted.. there are reasons he's a minor league lifer and why no one claimed him on waivers last time.... good pick up for him

Lance

Don't forget there were people on here earlier this year insisting Salazar should be part of the "youth movement"

I agree - good trade

And John... comparing Salazar to the years of Motton Corwley, etc isn't relevant..... how often are PH used now in the AL?

~~Now he's coming to the AL East to be in a not so pitcher friendly ballpark.~~

The Os ERA is WAY lower at home this year and has been lower at home in 7 of the prior 9 years... in fact in the last 9-plus seasons there have been more total runs (both teams) in Orioles road games than home games

Meredith has given up only 4 XB hits all year. He's given up 13 infield hits out of the 47 total, a very high number. His ERA is inflated because he game up his only HR of the year with the bases loaded. His 20% strike swinging is much better than the MLB average of 15%. Also, his double play % is not good for a groundball pitcher, because the Padres defense is miserable.

A huge steal by the Orioles.

Oh, and you don't have to worry about park effects for a groundball pitcher. It's fly balls that stay in Petco, groundballs still roll along the dirt the same in every stadium.

This releiver has the sixth most relief appearances in the history of the Padres and an ERA uner 4 since his 2006 trade from the evil Red Sox. He has a chance to be productive for us for a while. Oscar was out of options and is not a long term answer. Andy did the best he could

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Peter Schmuck wants you to know that, contrary to popular belief, he is more than just a bon vivant, raconteur and collector of blousy flowered shirts. He is a semi-respected journalist who has covered virtually every sport -- except luge, of course – and tackled issues that transcend the mere games people play. If that isn’t enough to qualify him to provide witty, wide-ranging commentary on the sports world ... and the rest of the world, for that matter ... he is an avid reader of history, biography and the classics, as well as a charming blowhard who pops off on both sports and politics on WBAL Radio. That means you can expect a little of everything in The Schmuck Stops Here, but the major focus will be keeping you up to the minute on Baltimore’s major sports teams and themes, whether it’s throwing up the Orioles lineup the minute it’s announced or updating you on the latest sprained ankle in Owings Mills. Oh, and by the way, that’s Mr. Schmuck to you.

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