The worst thing to come from the steroids era is this. Cal should have been a unanimous first-ballot entry into the HOF. If ever there should have been a unanimous first-ballot HOF candidate it would be Cal. However, a couple writers, who even went on the record with this, stated that they turned down Cal strictly because he played in the steroids era of baseball.

Everyone knew Cal was innocent of these charges, but he played in a time when there were clearly guilty parties involved with the game.

The Ripken family has always been baseball for me. A baseball card controversy meant nothing to me. It's sad that a steroids controversy cost Cal the recognition that he deserved.

Does Pete Rose count as a steroid guy, as you wrote in the last paragraph?

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Pete's reply: No, I was just adding him as one of the prominent players who will not be in.

It's becoming harder and harder to support MLB. I guess the days of rooting for Sakata, Ayala, and Bumbry are over. It's hard to root for O's who have made me feel so good over the years...

You shouldn't be indulged an answer to that stupid question, but rather a smack to the head...since internet beatings don't translate all that well, here goes...
Look, Pete, I usually think that you have very valid points 75-80% of the time, but you must have bumped your damn head on this one, essentially saying that leaving cheaters out of Cooperstown would "erode the relevance of the Hall"....
putting them in the Hall would erode the relevance of the Hall
Pete Rose never shot up to get his all time hits leader crown....Those other clowns could have never achieved such stats if it weren't for steroids or HGH, NEVER!!! And for you clowns who say," Oh, steroids don't help in hand/eye coordination." True professor Peabody, but they do extend careers in terms of years, as well as aid in power and vitality, which equates to the compiling of stats year after year....sure these clowns had talent, but they tainted historical statistics with numbers that they simply couldn't duplicate without the juice.
By the way, A-Fraud isn't the end all, be all of baseball...how can you say someone is "the most talented player in the history of the game" and can't win a WS with a team that literally shit titles up until the point he was brought in. Christ, lets see him get a hit in a post season game before you declare him grand master of hardball. Get over your man crush please, it's very unbecoming of you Peter.

I don't think the public get's more desensititzed to it the more we hear it when it comes to steroids. I don't think there will ever be a public uprising to get in McGwire or Palmero or any of the other "maybes" of that era. Nor do I think anyone who saw Bonds lie for years and even bring his son to a press conference where he lied and chided the media for questioning him in front of his son will feel he deserves anything but scorn. All of these guys slammed the door (the front door at least) to the Hall shut with their attitude not just needles.

Pete Rose is still the only one with a gripe. I could be wrong, but his betting charges were all from the time he was a manager correct? Having no impact on the 4,000 hits as a player. Your other examples are all players that will be punished for cheating as players. I don't think anyone looks down on the NCAA basketball championship because titles have been vacated before. It heightens the integrity of those who reached an achievement fairly when the standard to be called "champion" or "hall of famer" is kept high.

You know what would be messed up? If rumor got out that Ripken used steriods.

You know what would be messed up? If rumor got out that Ripken used steriods.

Wow, Pete. Damn if you aren't almost as smart as I am. Proud of my title of "The World's Greatest Optimist" I've been clinging to the hope (myth) that once a "clean guy" (A-Rod) took over the all time HR lead we'd all forgot about the cheats and the record would be where it belongs for awhile. But as soon as I heard this story yesterday I knew it was over. Disgustedly I decided I just didn't care any more and, therefor, neither did anyone else. You know what? To hell with the damn steroids already. Pitchers & catchers report next week. Lets just play ball.

It's fine with me because Bonds, Clemens and A-Rod may well have not earned the designations you gave them without the help of chemists.

And as for Rose, he knew the rules and he violated them (as with anyone currently caught with steroids). So, he can pay the price.

What happens when people who are already in the Hall get "outted" as steroid users? Will we than be able to keep all of the other juicers like McGwire, Palmeiro, Clemens, and A-Rod out?

Peter-
Simple Answer. Yes. When you look at little kids on the tee-ball field or your son, nephew, grandson, and you tell them about the "Great American Past-time", you want to teach them about the honor of the game.
When you cheat, you are cheating everyone who ever picked up a baseball.
Obviously, when you are paid amazing amounts of money based on your performance, you want an edge. But what about the guys that played it straight?
What does this make our whole country look like?
If you cheated, you are out. Thats the only way to maintain integrity.
It is very, very sad.

Pete:
I believe that the players you mentioned should still be part of the Hall of Fame because of their historical significance to the game, however, I would not allow them to directly experience the honor of election so I would not allow them to participate in the induction, nor could they refer to themselves as a Hall of Fame member for commercial purposes. Or you could wait until they have passed away to induct them.
At that point, even when they were inducted- their specific sins against the game- gambling or steroids, etc. would be clearly explained on their plaques. It would clearly explain for future generations that these records are forever tainted by their behavior such as gambling or the use of steroids which infected baseball during this era. The steroid era guys should be separated from the others into their own area of the Hall, a Hall of Shame, if you will.

SI Quoting 4 anonymous sources who violated a court order... That has got to tug at your heart strings. Why aren't you calling for them to leak the rest of those names ? Serves no purpose, Let a sleeping dog lay, would violate a court order.... all BS. That ship sailed yesterday. If you're going to hang one, hang them all. Who cares if we find Zaun or Roberts or Raffy or any other Oriole on that list.... Fair is Fair.... put it out there.

Arod isn't liked anyway, a much bigger hit would be if folks like Jr and Jeter are on the list of 104.

So have the Yankees now passed the O's for the lead in steriod users in the Al East?

i will have to deal with the sad reality? i have to as a fan? you got to be kidding me. you as a journalist dropped the ball here. your profession is as much to blame as the owners, the league, the union and the players. you should of been asking these questions and following up years ago.
it is what it is. the game has been disgraced with greed. keep out the cheats. keep investigating until we know everything no matter how ugly it is. we deserve the truth.

Good point about the Hall and the probable inability to continue to deny entry to miscreants.

Would be nice, though, if their HOF plaques included, where the evidence warranted it, that they were juiced. That way, the guys who played the game right could share the wall, but not have their numbers made to seem smaller because they get compared to the needle-users.

I don't have a problem with these guys being in the hall - IF they let in Pete Rose. This artificial standard of whether the players were saints or not is a ridiculous standard. In their plaques it can read whatever caveat baseball wants to add, but let what happens on the field stand. We know before steroids, amphetamines or any other drug that would give you a boost was being used. It is borderline insanity to hold these people to retro-active standards.

Frankly, the fact that information surfaced about Aroid testing positive comes as no no surprise to me .
Re: Hall of Fame , and sports records in general , steroids or no steroids , records don't mean much anymore when they're broken by players playing 162 game schedule vs. old 154 games in MLB . The NFL playing 16 games ( contemplating 18 ) as opposed to 11 games by the old-timers .
If you're gonna count those as "records", you might as well add the 'roid users .
By the way , and I'm in no way trying to start an argument here , and wish to take nothing away from the likes of Henry Aaron etc ., but for the uninformed , steroids did'nt just happen in the 90's and 00's . They've been around since the 30's . At that time for medicinal purposes . Just 10 years later they were being used by athletes . By my addition that means athletes have been using them since the forties , that's 40's ! In the sixties they were rampid in the NFL . In my sport of weightlifting , it's almost a brotherhood to compare "notes".
I'm just saying , don't be so close minded to think this is all new .
Thanks for the space Pete .

what a week for the golden boys! I have a 12 year old aspiring swimmer who was in the midst of reading Michael Phelps book and pretending to be him when he trained and he was devastated by the bong photos. 12 years is an important age for teaching about good decisions for the upcoming teenage years and the athlete that he looks up to the most suddenly makes the challenge greater. I also have an 8 year old who loves everything about baseball. He has an A-Rod fathead in his room and when he found out about the positive test, he actually asked me to take it down. With so few Cal Ripkens around, it is very difficult to find an athlete to look up to as a role model today because a let down is almost a certainty!

I don't feel sorry at all to leave each of those player out of the Hall--why should they be rewarded--just like in every other avenue--the ones that get caught get punished--they should all have their records stricken from the books--just like the sprinter who had to give up her gold medal--As a teacher I reprimand who is caught--it would be poor teaching to let the ones caught go unpunished just because I wasn't sure if they were the only ones misbehaving or a policemen doesn't give out a speeding ticket because others were speeding also--Deal with who is caught!!!

I've always felt that Pete Rose should be in the HOF, but with a prominent asterik or plaque that makes clear how he disgraced himself. Same too for the steroid cheats. Let me work out the displays and they'll be a bunch of guys who'll wish they never got in.

I don't have a problem with that at all.....as a baseball purist that is....now if we can only find out if Mr. Corporate (Texeira) was involved....my life would be complete

Yes that's okay with me. They don't deserve to be in the Hall. There are guys who haven't done steroids and sat down in the minors while players who did steroids were called up. It's not fair. Wipe Alex's name from the books with the rest of those bums. Bonds included.
If I was Cashman, I would be looking for a new 3rd baseman right now. I'm tired of A-rods antics from last year. This guy needs to be stopped cold or others will think they can get away with it.
Do you agree Pete?

Pete-

There was a John Lennon song where he sang "nobody told me there'd be days like these".

With spring training quickly approaching, baseball has but another albatross to sink the wheels yet even deeper into the muck.

It's ok with me.

I think there is a great deal of hypocrisy here in focusing on steroids and ignoring amphetamines. Steroids alone does NOTHING but make you fat. Steroid use allows players to work out harder and longer than they would have been able to do otherwise and to get more results from that effort. Amphetamines allowed players (including the great Mays, Aaron and others in the "clean" era) to put energy into their bodies and perhaps most significantly, to bring clarity and focus to their eyesight. No, amphetamines don't improve your eyesight, but if your vision is blurry from exhaustion and/or a hangover, they bring back your normal eyesight. This is why they were developed in WWII and used extensively by pilots. I'm not for PED's, but to say that the game was tainted by them is (IMHO) ridiculous. Larger muscles don't help hitters recognize pitches, work the count and get the head of the bat on the ball. I think pitchers are probably helped more than hitters. Yes, the greater mass and strength will help a hitter drive the ball further IF the bat hits the ball, but again it would have been a result of them WORKING HARDER at being physically prepared. The steroids alone won't do it. All players had to do was pop a benny and they got the results, but no one questions the stats of the players in the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's who were, almost to a man (from what I've heard) taking speed from a bowl filled with them in the clubhouse.

ml

A post script to my earlier comment , funny to me that steroids , all the while considered to be "illegal" drugs , were not banned by MLB until recently . And what about the widespread use of amphetamines ! ? ! ?

Sad- But true that the writers will keep them all out. Joe Jackson should have been in the hall also, along with Pete Rose.

Pete: What is worse betting a lot, on your own team or steroid enhanced strength to give you an edge. How many homeruns would McGuire, Sosa and Bonds have hit if they were not on the juce? How many games would Clemens had won and how many k's would he have? I guess we have no way of really knowing but if people believe it added 10% or more, it takes a normal 370 foot fly out and makes it a 400 foot home run. This was around in the 70's had a friend that took them, he could not hit it over the fence before that but then soon after he could. Unfortunate for him he died of kidney failure, so this is not a new problem, same stuff that race horses took. Judge Landis where are you? I hope your taxes are coming along okay.

And on it goes.

How long until someone comes forward with details about the Golden One, Cal Ripken Jr., riding this same train with everyone else?

BTW, is it just me or does EVERY 'roid story seem to have a Baltimore connection?

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Pete's reply: I wouldn't worry about Cal.

[QUOTE]If you believe that the steroid guys don't belong, then you're going to have to deal with the sad reality of a Hall of Fame that will not include the all-time hits leader (Pete Rose), the all-time and single-season home run king (Barry Bonds), one of the most overpowering pitchers ever (Roger Clemens) and the player (A-Rod) who might be the most talented guy in the history of the game.

Is that OK with you?[/QUOTE]

Yep. Got to stigmatise the issue. Even at the expence of having most of todays players never get in the hall. We have to draw a line in the sand. Of what we will and wont accept.

Yep. I am willing to disallow most of todays potential Hall of Famers. We must draw a strong line in the sand.

I have no interest in excusing steriod use. But am I the only one bothered by these leaks every time the government gets confidential information? Is there any organization less ethical than the US Department of Justice? How appropriate!

Yes that is ok with me. These guys have to pay for their transgressions. There are consequences to your actions, and it is time for people to start owning up to them.

YES

Reporters overstate the importance of the Hall of Fame. Wouldn't you rather have they money Clemens or A-Rod made than a plaque in a shrine?

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Pete's reply: Not me, but it's a false choice anyway. Many of the well-know steroid users had plenty of money before they started using, which answers your question, I think.

It's okay with me, I want the truth. I want to know who cheated so they can get their real punishment and judgement from the fans. Why should we elect any more cheaters in the hall of fame? I believe the dignity of the Hall should be maintained as much as possible, otherwise it will become meaningless.

i'm really not sure if that's ok. i think we should just allow the writers to vote them in or not just like everyone else. if they say no i don't want them in the hall because of steriods, so be it.
and because i'm shamelessly curious is there anyonen else out there hoping that this might just throw the yankees off and make them be bad? i know its wistfull thinking but i can't help it...

All kidding aside, maybe they should have a hall of shame wing in Cooperstown. There seems to be more and more high profile players that have used steroids. If they have the numbers put them in the hall, but let it be known that they were cheaters.

Yes, it is ok. Cheaters, whether through gambling or illegal performance enhancing drugs, are cheaters. The all-time home run leader and the most overpowering pitcher and the most talented guy etc. etc. would not have those titles but for cheating. Is there really a question here, other than the question of whether you or others think that poor judgment and conduct should not have consequences? Is anyone going to feel a "sad reality?" The cheaters aren't suffering too badly at the bank. They received boat loads of cash that we paid for. Baseball is a sad business-confidential testing to see if there is a problem! Guys like Clemens can throw a bat (and it does not matter why) at a hitter running to first, and not get thrown out of a game, but a manager can get thrown out of a game for arguing balls and strikes. Great messages for kids and adults.....

Pete,

I would be in lock down if I were Bud Selig about now. I mean he tried to BS his way through those Congressional hearings and pardon the pun but they (Congress) have to be feeling like Schmucks too these days! 104 players tested positive and old Bud telling them things are under control??????

Funny about 4 years ago, the only football player to get caught with steroids was punter Todd Sauerbaum and the only reason he got caught was he tried to mail his stash! So as Congress congratulated the NFL we are to believe the ONLY player using was a punter? We are all being naive to believe this and it would be much like everyone speeds on the highway but only to worry if you get caught. It's either serious enough to ban players and wipe out their records or it's not, but one thing for certain, Pete Rose is looking better every single day!

Bonds etc. not in the Hall? It's more than ok with me. I demand it. I hate cheaters. Treat them the way the IOC does, ban them and strip them of all awards and records.

just don't ever tell me that BJ Surhoff tested positive. I don't think I could take it.

Give me a brake, 2003 that 6 years ago. Lets move on

Since "A-Roid" got caught, I wonder if he'll be treated with the same scruntiny as Bonds? Baseball is slowly becoming the Professional Boxing of the sports world. Greedy players, shady owners, no salary caps, and all kinds of other dirt.

And they're keeping Pete Rose out of the HOF for betting on a game?

This issue certainly does open up a whole new can of worms for the voters in the BBWAA doesn't it? It used to be that the only "criteria" the voters had to worry about was whether the eligible player was "dominant" as opposed to other players in their era. Now suddenly they have to worry about whether the player was dominant and was a proven "cheater" or not.

Even if the person was not a cheater, it is beginning to look more and more like the days of innocent until proven guilty are behind us. Given the fact that, "Even Mitchell made it clear that it was far from a comprehensive list," and more and more of these guys are being implicated every day, it might be easier for the voters to presume guilt unless proven innocent.

Either way, I made up my mind a long time ago that if I was a voter, I would NEVER elect Barroid Bonds to the HOF because he is a cheater. He did not realize that the cream and the clear were steroids (wink wink). It just makes it all very simple. If Barroid cheated and I would not vote for him, I am certainly not going to turn around and vote for A-Fraud....or Clemens....or Sosa, et al.

One last thing. If you go back to the record book, when I was growing up the All-Time HR Leaders were:

1. Aaron 755
2. Ruth 714
3. Mays 660
4. Frank 586

As far as I am concerned, that might as well be what the record book says today because at least we know those guys did not cheat.

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Pete's reply: I'm sure they tried to get an edge in their day too, but nothing like this.

You know what? I just looked at A-Rod's Stats before 2003, he already had 298 homeruns! So I think this alledged steroid use is Bull!

Maybe I didn't see anyone else post this, but I'm going to say it anyway and if someone did, my apologies.
When is someone going to say, "Shame on Major League Baseball for encouraging this type of 'gamesmanship'. The owners, sponsors, and commissioners office are the ones to blame for letting this get as far as it did." Now the players have another reason to mistrust ownership. Can another work stoppage be far behind?

Pete,

I pretty sure Frank Robinson wouldn't agree with you. Hank Aaron probably isn't too pleased that his record was taken by a cheater. Letting the steroid users in diminishes the records of those already in the Hall. Steroid abuse shows a lack of respect for the game and those that do not respect the game should be excluded. But all that above is irrelevant, money as always will decide the issue.

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Pete's reply: I think you misunderstood my point. I wasn't saying they should get in. I was just pointing out what I think the impact might be.

The first comment here really made me laugh. Classic example of an Oriole fan insanely overrating "The Streak".

"If ever there should have been a unanimous first-ballot HOF candidate it would be Cal."

Ha!

If Cal Ripken deserved to be a unanimous Hall of Famer, Lou Gehrig should get his own wing in the Hall of Fame.

Gehrig hit 62 more home runs, drove in 300 more runs and walked almost 400 more times in 2164 games than Ripken did in 3001 games.

Gehrig's lifetime average was 65 points higher than Ripken's, his lifetime OBP was 100+ points higher than Ripken's and his OPS+ was 65 points higher than Ripken's.

Ripken drove in 100+ runs four times in 21 seasons. Gehrig drove in 100+ runs 13 times in 17 seasons. Gehrig drove in 150+ runs seven times. Ripken never did that.

Ripken a unanimous choice for the Hall. HA!

Pete,

I really enjoy the blog. You say not to worry about Cal. I hope deep down that you are right, but I don't think you can just dismiss the possibility. I'm a huge fan, but look at the facts. He showed incredible endurance and stamina. Played well into the twilight of his career. He liked to travel by himself. And worst of all, his best bud was Brady Anderson - who was my favorite player at the time, but come on - 50 homers!?!? Brady is practically the poster boy for the era (literally and figuratively).

"You know what? I just looked at A-Rod's Stats before 2003, he already had 298 homeruns! So I think this alledged steroid use is Bull!"

Pretty idiotic way of looking at it. The fact that he was *caught* in 2003 in no way means he *started* using in 2003. There was hardly comprehensive testing done before then. For all we know at the moment, that was his first test ever, and his first opportunity to get caught.

i would be fine with a HOF without those guys.

Cal Ripken's best buddy was not Brady Anderson, they were teammates but making a statement like that is just wrong. Really leave Cal out of discussions like this. The steroid era will always have a poster boy and maybe they should have a wall of shame of all ones that have been caught and parade every prospective player from high school or college and show them where they will end up if they ever decide to do steroids. The sports writers will do their job to keep it clean.

Nice view Pete,
I think the whole hall of fame thing is way over rated. Especially considering now how many dirty players there must have been along the way. 50 years from now my kids may have heard the name before maybe but it wont mean anything to them like Babe Ruth did when we were growing. Holding the hall of fame over somebody's head is quickly becoming more of a certification of a good guy then a performance based award and the kids are seeing that already

I'd like to see the names of the guys who were tested and came up clean. with so mayn acusations the guys who are clean deserve to be recognized