I wouldn't trade him for Longoria in a second.
Nick is equally as talented and valuable. He doesn't have the power of Evan, but Nick is definitely a 5 tool player.

After seeing (the rumor/ report) the reigning AL MVP sign for 6 years 40 mil.. i think that should help the O's sign Nick to a cheaper deal

After seeing (the rumor/ report) the reigning AL MVP sign for 6 years 40 mil.. i think that should help the O's sign Nick to a cheaper deal

The best idea in the interest of a good player and his team's ability to market a product (with recognizable faces to attract fan loyalty) is to sign him to a long-term contract before his free agency comes up. Markakis has to know that playing his entire career in one team's uniform is the best-case scenario for his well-being and future off-field endeavors. Case in point: Mike Schmidt, who faced the same dilemma in Philly in the '70's as Markakis faces now. Schmidt ended up signing a then-historic 5-year deal for $3.2 million. Schmidt was happy, his management was happy, and the fans loved it...Almost immediately the Phillies started winning and kept winning through the early '80's. Attendance grew by huge increases. Schmidt today describes his signing as the best decision of his career. It allowed him to put down roots and raise a family in the town he played for, another intangible which cannot be underestimated by a player or his fans. Further, it gave Schmidt a new "comfort zone" in which he flourished and produced the best numbers of his career. It was a win-win-win situation for Schmidt, the team ownership and the fans. As Schmidt has said, jumping around every couple years for an extra million is simply not worth losing the stability of playing an entire career for the "home team." Markakis and the Orioles have a similar opportunity to improve the brand of the Orioles and to assure the stable future of a good young player by signing now in good faith for a long-term "family-style" contract. It just has to be comparable and respectful compensation, not the crazy money being thrown around by other franchises...Markakis will thrive and the team will automatically become better because of it.

I'd trade him for Longoria in a John Waters minute.

The people who are casting McPhail and the front office as bad guys are the same people who get ripped off anytime they have a chance to negotiate.

All negotiations take time and just because they are negotiating does not mean the Orioles are not trying to lock up Markakis long term. It will get done and all sides will be happy but you have to remember that the Orioles are a business and have to make sound business decisions.

"The process that gets you to that number takes time"

Yep...apparently that time frame will be until Markakis is eligible to file for Free Agency. The only way time works in the O's favor is if Markakis comes down with a career threatening injury. Otherwise, the meter is ticking and the price is ONLY going to go up.

Yes, it takes two to tango and I have no idea what Markakis wants. I do know whatever it is will be far less now then it will be in three years.

That's Business 201, Peter...too bad you never made it past the 1st semester.

..............................................................................................
Pete's reply: You're professor left out the other side of the risk vs. reward equation. The possibility that you do sign him and he suffers a career-threatening injury. That has to be factored into the price. I guess you'll get to that in Business 301.

Pedroia just signed a 6 year $40.5 MM extension. He's the current AL MVP. I feel like this really lowers Markakis' asking price.

The Boston Red Sox have agreed to terms with American League Most Valuable Player Dustin Pedroia on a six-year contract worth $40.5 million, The Associated Press has learned. do you think markasis is a better player than pedroia? this might be a good gage for signing markasis.

Pete,

I like your stuff brother, but I don't think anyone wants to trade away a gold glove caliber, 5 tool right fielder for a kid who's had one good year(although it was a pretty good year). It's fair to say that trade idea would be entertained, it's not accurate to say that it's a no-brainer.

Well, well, well. Another one bites the dust. It has been reported that the Red Sox just signed Pedroia (the reinging MVP) to a 6-year, $40.5 million dollar contract that takes them through THREE arbitration and TWO free-agent seasons.

It is also reported that this is one of the four biggest non-arbitration deals ever, along with David Wright, Ryan Braun and Hanley Ramirez.

I love Nick, but I'll trade him straight up for any of those three (but certainly not for Pedroia). So I don't think it's Nick and his Agent asking for the moon, it's the O's lowballing as is their SOP.

So why are we fans crazy for thinking the Front Office is incompetent for not getting this done?

Oh...this may be the reason. Peter Gammons opines, "That it got done this quickly shows how much Pedroia loves playing in Boston, and that he prefers playing to dickering over arbitration and free-agent dollars. His favorite phrase is "it's all about winning."

The O's haven't won sqaudoosh in 10 years and haven't shown any sense of urgency to do anything so far. If you're going to woo Markakis, you have to throw some extra money in since the O's have NOTHING else to offer. Let me repeat..N-O-T-H-I-N-G!

So either get it done, or let him go through three years of arbitration where the club tells Nick how much he sucks, and then get bent over when he decides to go play for a winner somewhere else.

Because if they can't get this no-brainer done, like the Brewers, Marlins, Mets and Red Sox did with their young marquis players, they certainly will do nothing else to truly put a winning product out on the field.

That water I feel on my face is not rain and I'm tired of the O's trying to tell me that it is.

.............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Funny, I would have thought the Pedroia signing would support my argument. The O's are already offering Nick way more than that, so why are they the bad guys?

Pete, I know you understand this, but I think it's important. Orioles fans have lost perspective. More accurately, we've had perspective beaten out of us by basically 25 years of mismanagement and disappointment. Normally, no one would complain about a 25 year old player under control for three more years not getting a huge contract extension. For us, though, Markakis represents the only real hope of contending any time soon. He's a very good player on a team without many good players, and we've hitched our hopes to him.

Now, I think Markakis will be an All Star caliber player, but you're right. He's probably not Longoria, and he's definitely not Hanley Ramirez. He should be the second best player on a good team, just a notch below a superstar. Since we don't have those, we need Nick. Of course, if Rios' deal is the standard, Markakis should get at least as much, because he has shown far more than Rios has.

The point is, true Orioles fans are at the breaking point. The casual fans have already stopped caring, but the few of us left who are hardcore are starting to waver. It's been 11 years, and really we've only been competitive 3 or 4 years in the last 25. I've only been alive for a few winning seasons, and can only remember 96 and 97. We want to be proud and loyal to this team, but every time we hear something about the front office stalling or waiting or whatever pushes us further away. This isn't a real business. They need to get over the money issues and show the fans they are really committed to this team and the city.

Though I've always thought the Birds would botch the Markakis extension, I agree that there are two sides here and we could overpay. Markakis is a fine player on a dead team with a moribund fan base. That ups his value beyond his numbers on the field, which are pretty darned impressive. Hm. Maybe the Bird don't have an excuse, now that I've thought about it. Pay the guy!

How come the Red Sox can come to terms with Pedroia, the AL MVP and we can't come to terms with Markakis? This organization is so poorly run. I thought McPhail would make a difference. I'll give him more time to complete things this off-season before I make my final opinion. But so far, it looks like the Orioles are going to sit back and be too patient again. We will lose our own players to free agency like we did with Palmero, Mussina, BJ Ryan among others and then let the big fish sign with other teams. We will be stuck with everyone's elses second tier players. Here comes another losing season!

.............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Again, did you notice that Pedroia took about $25 million less than Nick wants?

A lot of people are so obsessed by the past decade's failure over all they automatically assume this is the end and Markakis will leave, but with a little reason, it is plain to see that is not the case. In the end, both sides will be appeased and that is what is really important, not just getting him signed to have him signed. I'm sure by spring training, no, by arbitration time, he will have a long term deal with the O's and all will be happy.

I am going to rant...

While signing Nick to a 6-7 year deal at about $10 million annually seems like a reasonable number based on other signings...it is just a crazy amount of money for any ball player.

With the US economy in distress and many people happy to even have a job (many probably without any raise this year), when do we say enough and not pay the ball players, actors, CEO, etc. these excessivly high dollars?

At some point salaries for ball players are going to have to decline. We as spectators are not going to be able to support a team, regardless of winning or losing, if this continues. Prices are already crazy and can only go higher with this continued raping of the fan. When does this salary bubble burst?!?

Okay, now that I am done with that...Pedroia just signed 6-years at ~$40 million and he is an MVP. Does that set the bar?

Ha! Look at all these foolish teams signing their young stars to extensions. Pedrioa, Longoria, Rios, etc. There teams should realize that they hold all the cards for their arbitration years and just pay them far below market value because they can, like the O's are doing with Markakis. It makes no sense to foster good will and let your cornerstones know you're in their corner when you can low-ball them and take them for everything their worth. Go O's.

.............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Conversely, no matter how nice you are to them during that period, the minute they get leverage, they go for the throat, too. It's just business on both sides.

Schmucky, I am so glad you are as rational as you are. It's not too surprising that they haven't signed anybody yet since, well, nobody else has either (funny how nobody's saying anything like that). Really, the only transactions around the MLB have been Holliday-to-A's, Coco-to-Royals, and Vasquez-to-Braves. All trades. No signings.

The O's have time to work out the details, but this extension sure better get done. It will be another indication that this franchise is not the same nut house it has been for far too long. Evidence is mounting that there is some coherence in the front office, but most fans are still wondering if it will last. A Markakis extension will be another mark in the organization's favor.

Personally, I'm still watching this off season from a distance waiting to see if I should bother to go to more then a game or two this year.

Pete,
That's because most people are idiots.
He's signed through 2011. There's no point in rushing the process. And hey have plenty of time to negotiate a contract before the arbitration period. The only thing the Orioles have to realize is the longer they wait the more valuable he'll be - It would be stupid not to sign him to an extention this offseason. But this is how MacPhail works and people need to sit back and be patient.

Looks like Pedroia's deal would be a good place to start...

Pete's reply: You're professor left out the other side of the risk vs. reward equation. The possibility that you do sign him and he suffers a career-threatening injury. That has to be factored into the price. I guess you'll get to that in Business 301.

Uh..that was my first point, read much Pete?

Anyway, all the Front Office appologists seem to think the O's have some sort of track record that allows them ANY benefit of the doubt here.

News flash...they don't!

Go ahead and low ball your franchise player when other teams seem to be able to sign theirs. Or, if Nick is coming in with some outrageous demand, understand he doesn't want to be here and trade him while his value is SKY HIGH right now.

But when Pedroia sings for about $7/mil per year and the other studs for about $10/mil, does it make ANY sense that Markakis is asking for more?

Not hardly.

Logic and the O's track record indicates they are using thier self-proclaimed "leverage" when they have it to low ball their franchise player. They are willing to bet that in three years, this tactic won't backfire in their face. They will probably hope to get a "hometown" discount in the bargain as well.

Pathetic. That water streaming down my face isn't orange kool-aid either.

...............................................................................................
Pete's reply: I think I read too much. I can't figure out where you're coming from. I believe Nick has been offered a great deal of money. I wouldn't assume he's being low-balled.

MAKE A FAIR OFFER AND IF THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH LET HIM TAKE A HIKE TO NEW YORK.
WHO REALLY CARES

It also says something about the state of the franchise that just because we've finally sniffed the closest thing to an all star outfielder since Brady Anderson (see: 1997) fans are wanting to throw gobs of money at him and will be mad at the front office until he's resigned.

The McPhail front office has shown nothing but an ability to competently handle contracts and trades. Why not give them a chance to do so without banging the door down.

I agree that Markakis needs to get paid, but I don't think the situation is as urgent as, say, finding a starting rotation for next year. You know, the guys that stand on that little dirt thing in the middle of all the grass? That we DON'T already have under contract for 3 more years? Just a thought.

I think you're smoking something if you think every exec would trade Markakis for Longoria straight up. Longoria went through an awful slump this year - Nick has actually never had a slump - he has been one of the most productive hitters with very little support. The ages are similar - I can see where every exec would consider it, but to say most would do it is ridiculous - makes me wonder what you're watching?

Pete, I realize the current fad in baseball front officies is to sign these 2-3 year players to 5,6,7 year contracts. I am willing to bet a years salary that in 5 years more of these will look bad then good. We don't yet have a history on these players over a 5-6 year period yet to know, but we do have some history on other players who have signed big long term deals. Long term deals lock a team into deals that they wish they could get out of. Can you say Albert Belle, Barry Zito, A-Rod, Jason Schmidt, Carl Pavano and Kevin Brown to name a few. The O's signed Melvin to a long term and it took a no trade to do it. Hasn't that hindered us more then helped since we can't trade him and he has had a couple of mediocre years before last year.

In 3-4 years I am willing to bet that signing pre arbitration players to 6-7 year contracts will not be the thing to do. Most of the "just sign him now crowd" would crucify the FO if after signing Nick to a 7 year deal and for whatever reason after a year or 2 he flops or is injured etc will be screaming that he should never have been signed to that deal ... We have become a short-sighted people. We want it today but don't think about how it will affect us tomorrow. We FINALLY have a FO Exec that is doing it right. Last years 10 for 2 deals should mean that Andy gets some time to put the puzzle together. Let's remember folks it takes TWO to sign. Andy can't just say Tex sign this, A.J. sign this, Nick sign this. If they want something (like a no trade) that Andy thinks will hurt more then signing them helps than so be it.

Everybody gets worked up about it because of the media putting out these stupid articles constantly. This isn't even news, this deal will get done eventually. but the way roch and peter report on this garbage it feels like the orioles are in a constant failure situation one after another. How about doing some interviews with some prospect guys or something worth reading?

Peter Angelos, and by extension the O's braintrust, seem like they would rather win a negotiation than a Pennant Race.

As fans, we shouldn't be expected to know or care about the lengthy and often ugly process of getting an athlete to sign a multi-million dollar contract with our home team. That's why teams invest even more millions into the front-office payroll. And I get the Hot-Stove season and all of the money and buzz that generates for lots of fans. But in Baltimore it feels different. The Hot stove here is rarely about hype or signing successes its become more about saving face. Every year there's an article appealing to the fan base's patience with contracts and signings. For me, the O's need to start winning ballgames, maybe even have a winning season once this millenium, before I give them the benefit of the doubt in the off-season... Until we win, I'll be raking them over the coals for just about EVERYTHING!!!

I'm with Pete. The minute the players get the leverage you are done. Once they are a free agent you hear their agents reminding you that there is no hometown discount. The ONLY time the team has much say at all is when they are under their control for the first years. It's business. Both sides try to get the best deal and have to weigh future value with possible future injury/decline in play,
There is a reason the owners have more control the first 5/6? years and then the pendulum goes the players way. It's in the bargaining agreement both sides signed.

Pete, you've got admit that MacPhail's "deliberate" approach has nearly burned the Orioles several times. The O's were 3 minutes of losing Matt Weiters and came to the deadline with Matusz as well. Not to mention the deals that have failed at the trade deadline, wasn't Aubrey Huff almost certainly getting traded at the deadline and then the clock ran out with MacPhail on the phone?

What you guys continually call "deliberate" seems like the same foot-dragging approach O's fans are used to from this front office. I'm not saying it's MacPhail's fault, I think he definitely has a plan for this team, but someone up there in the warehouse is dragging their heels on a lot of matters, this just seems like one more.

Personally I don't see the urgency in the deal, he's locked up for a while and there are more pressing needs in Tex, Burnett and locking Roberts up and finding a short stop, but at the same time you have to understand why O's fans in general aren't happy when they see the front office failing to deliver, especially when this has been talked about for over a year now.

Settle down people. Comparing the Pedroia to Markakis deal is apples to watermelons. A lot of frustration coming from not making a big signing yet. No other team has made a big signing yet. The front office is facing such an uphill battle with the big free agents. 11 losing seasons doesn't make you overly attractive. Save the venom for February when we sign David Segui for 4 years at 58 million.

Business 101 teaches that there is a revenue side to consider as well as an expense side, I can't imagine the news that Nick's contract talks have stalled is good for season ticket sales. I'm not saying you hand Nick's agent a blank check, but the O's have a shrinking fan base to consider. The team needs to be aggressive this winter or they will be playing in front of 20,000 empty seats again. Get back to the negotiating table...now. Give the sales team something to work with.

It is apples to oranges now. It was apples to apples if they would have been proactive like the Rays were. Enough fruit comparrisons. They are not risking a considerable amount if Longoria gets hurt. The Orioles thought Markakis would be a star from the beginning.

OK everyone is comparing Pedroia to Markakis but baseball's arbitration system means that Pedroia should be cheaper because he was not eligible for arbitration until 2010 whereas Markakis is eligible in 2009 (next season). Boston basically bought out 3 arbitration years and 2 years of FA for $40 million. Last year, Toronto signed Rios to a 6 year $64 million deal, buying 2 years of arb and 4 years of FA. Markakis is right between those two in service time and given his position as "building stone" of the franchise, probably deserves a slight premium. So I think Mr. Schmuck's 6 year $63 million guess is a good (and fair) one.

I can understand fans getting antsy to lock up our homegrown superstar, but let's all remember how MacPhail's slow pace/patience in the Bedard deal netted us quite the catch - Jones, Sherrill, Butler, Mackolio, Tillman.

I think the O's will eventually get The Stick signed before the 2009 season. I'm more interested to see if we can defy the odds and sign Tex.

Not only would I not hastily trade Markakis for Longoria, I question whether "most people" in baseball would do so in a second as well. In the end, the deciding factor, at least for me, wouldn't be talent (where I think they're comparable) but years of experience and thus the dollars each player might command, which is where Longoria has more appeal.

lets put ourselves in nicks shoes for just a second. he knows he is going to get paid either buy the o's now or someone else in 3 years. i am sure that nick wants to play for a winnning team and if i were nick i would not sign with the o's until i was sure that management was going to try to put a winning team on nthe field. that means signing a big bat or two and a big arm or two. in other words if i were nick i would wait and see what the o's were going to do with the couple of big free agents out there. if they sign them i may consider staying with the o's. if not i just bide my time until i can play for a better team because we all know the o's are one of the worst in baseball right now.

For me, this is a reality check. Can we just all agree that 40 million is just an incredible amount of money. Really. We throw out these numbers like they don't mean anything and say, "Pay him what he wants!" 40 million dollars for bunting and running and throwing and hitting "maybe" 30 home runs a year. 40 million dollars. None of these players should feel slighted or unwanted in the least. 40 million dollars....

The Union some time ago made the rules which cover a player's progression through the ranks of status from drafted free agency through arbitration into unrestricted free agency.
The owners, having some time ago agreed to these rules, are left to work within them.
The system is designed to pay a player just starting out a minimum, but gainful salary, while guaranteeing him eventual eligibility to enter that elite group of players who, for their individual accomplishments on the field, have been rewarded much larger sums of money and in some cases guaranteed the same.
Ahhh... but that's not good enough for some agents, players, or fans.
If the Orioles want to keep Nick Markakis for a long time, then it's going to cost them several millions of dollars to do so. Anyone who really believes that salaries are not way out of wack (and have been so for some time now) is just not paying attention.
Therefore, why does it make a GM, working within the Union's own guidelines, who tries to minimize that player's salary for the five or so years he is allowed to do so before having to surrender to the wacked out salaries a BAD GUY?
How many of you people started your careers at the mid to upper pay scale?
There is a process which needs to be implemented here in order to keep things at least close to equitable for a little while between ownership and players and I think we should all realize that and be patient.
In the meantime if teams like Boston want to throw little babies like Pedroia an extra bone, then fine. Can you just imagine little Dustin sitting down on second base waving his hands in the air and screaming "WAAA... WAAAA ! ! ! !" Man, I sure can. And I'll tell you who else: Jonathan Papelbon. That guy is a tantrum waiting to happen.
Boy Peter, apples and oranges is sooo right. Only not only so far as the players and situations.... but also the two teams.
Boston has a history of whiners and sobbers.
The Orioles do not.

The Dude-

Wow, there's alot of almost's and nearly's in that post.

Point is, they DIDN'T lose Weiters or Matusz. Point is, they robbed Houston and Seattle blind and ended up with a CF for the future and a 30+ save closer.

Give them a little bit of a break. The "deliberate" method seems to be working so far. Remember, this is not a team that will be a contender next year. This is a rebuilding team and we need to have patience while the Architect works. The finished result will be worth it. Remember, rushed workmanship got us the leaning tower of Pisa, and Albert Belle. Maybe it's time we tried the slow and steady approach.

Dave makes an excellent point. There are apparently 10,000 sheep that will go "baa" at anything the O's throw out at them: legitimate prospects rushed before they are ready (Ponson, Cabrerra, Liz); legitimate prospects traded for flotsom (Maine); overvalued prospects paraded as major league starters (Bigbie, Matos), mediocre free agent signings (Trachsel, Millar, Payton), etc.

What they need to do is start worrying about the 20,000 that stoped buying into that nonsense.

Good place to start would be to get "Tex" in here and sign Markakis to a long term deal. They have nothing else to offer so they are going to have to overpay..sorry, that's the way it goes to overcome years of mismanagement.

As for everyone clammoring about pitching; there is plenty coming in about 1 - 2 years. Certainly enough that dropping money into the mediocre free agents on the market would not make any sense. Especially if you're going to keep totting out the pathetic line-up we have now.

There are no (with the exception of Weiters and maybe Snyder and Reimold) bats in the minors that are going to make a difference. However there are a number of talented arms at A and AA.

Put the money into the bats, let the young pitching come and in two years you have a complete package.

Pete--
In Andy I Still Trust.
Hey, if Nick signs for 6, does that mean starting in 2009 or 2012?

..............................................................................................
Pete's reply: 2009.

Allow this process to play itself out. Remember it is only early December and the winter meetings haven't even started and the O's may want to see how that plays out before offering a final contract to Nick. Maybe Nick told the O's to try to sign these players now and if they can, he may be more willing to take a little less money. No one knows the scenario, but it is a little too early to be getting nasty and pointing fingers. Don't you think MacPhail wants Nick in Baltimore?

It is not a good idea to just open your check book for Nick. Whatever money they can save on him, they can apply to acquire other free agents such as Tex or Burnett. It is very important to get a deal done so Roberts extends his contract too. We have to prove that we are headed in the right direction in order to sign them. That will show other agents for higher profile players that we are serious about getting a deal done. I have faith in the Front Office. I believe MacPhail is doing the right thing. He stole Sherrill, Albers, and Jones. We still have Patton and Tillman who both have upside potential.
My lineup would be: Roberts 2nd, Jones CF, Markakis RF, TEX 1st, Huff DH, Scott LF, Mora 3rd, Weiters C, tbd SS.
Starting Pitching: Guthrie, Burnett, J. Johonson, Cabrera, Bergensen
Relief: Patton, Albers, Mickolio, Baez, Walker, Sarfate, Ray, Sherrill

soapbox, as soon as you can find a way to get fans to shell out 60 bucks to watch the produce guy stock the bins, or to watch a history teacher write questions on a blackboard, then those people can ask for 10 million a year. Its called capitalism and it is one of the principles our country was founded on. As long as me and millions of other fans are willing to pay for season tickets and buy products hawked during the telecasts, the players salaries will continue. You say no player is worth 10 mil a year, but think about this. How much was Cal Ripken worth to the O's when he was the ONLY reason that people were coming to games and the ONLY player marketed by the team. You dont see it because you dont understand supply and demand. Thats really Econ 101.

Dave,
Why would it affect ticket sales. He's on the team for the next three years no matter what unless they trade him or he gets hit by a bus and becomes a cripple. That and Nick was the one that said lets take a break from the negotiations. I'm sure the O's want to take care of this as soon as possible. Just relax people. Opening Day is still 5 months away. The offseason is just starting. Things will get done. Just have some faith for a change instead of panicking at every little tid-bit that comes out. You all are going to blow out an O ring (pun intended) if you keep this up for the next couple of months.

Nick is not only a great player, If you notice last year, He's clubhouse Gold.
He is doing the job of some of the coaches with the new players. He could end up the greek ray lewis of baseball. (although I doubt anyone will be intimidated by him during a game)
This team needs not only great players but leaders. Now if only they could sign that veteran pitcher (jamie moyer anyone?) to do the same with these young guys.

Peter- I'll attach my resume, I have a BS in Accounting and and MBA at College Park. I took business 101. Also, business ethics, that teach us to treat our employees well. Do we really ever have to worry about the O's paying anybody whatever they want? I just think that Markakis is the cornerstone of the O's now and hopefully into the future. More-so than Roberts and just a tier under Ripken. I think everyone in this City is going to pick the player over the team. We have lost for 11 years. And its not like we were tearing up the MLB before that. 96 and 97 are the only reason we are not saying 25 losing seasons.
My point is, I think you might cut your only fan attraction some slack. Maybe show the rest of the Free Agents that signing with the O's isn't like a colonoscopy using a blowtorch. Did you just see the Sox sign Pedroia for 6 years? It took them a week. I just have a sneaking suspicion that the O's are pinching again. That, is the biggest reason we have and will continue to lose. Just like they talk about Arrieta and Matusz, Tillman, and Bergeson as the next rotation to carry us into contention. Didn't we just hear that about loewen, Cabrera, Penn, Bedard, and others? It's the same ol story. You said last time that I have a bleak outlook. I think the Ravens are gonna win a title in the next 3 years. They spend their max and draft well. Now they have a QB that I think now has what it takes to be a LEGENDARY one.
If I am wrong about the O's, I swear, I'll admit it. See me in 5 years.

..............................................................................................
Pete's reply: The only problem I have with the tenor of this discussion is that anyone could think that offering Nick about $60 million for six years is somehow lowballing him. Is it possible he might be being unreasonable? Pedroia got signed in a week because he took $40 million for six after winning the MVP award.

Peter- One more thing. I get frustrated because, where under normal circumstances, yes, it would not be a rush. But, on a losing team, when you are claiming you are trying to rebuild there SHOULD be a sense of urgency. The sox gave Papelbon 1$million bonus last year with his contract negotiation. And before you reply to that with the Red Sox have money, the Marlins did the same thing 2 years ago with Hanley. The Marlins have won 2 WS in the last 11 seasons.
It all simply smells of Orioles Standard operating procedure. There was no hurry with Moose, until he was gone. There was no hurry with BJ Ryan til he was gone. No hurry with Bedard. No Hurry with Roberts.
I happen to be in the state of mind that chances are it is the Orioles that are on the wrong end of the situation.
If they are not offering somewhere around 10 a year, then they are dreaming and we might as well all cancel our season ticket orders because they are still playing in the 80s and 90s. We will continue to get sold on Jay Paytons and Kevin Millars and 27 year old minor league journeymen.

...............................................................................................
Pete's reply: I understand the frustration, but it still isn't fair to blame Mike Mussina on Andy MacPhail. MacPhail doesn't rush into anything, but he got the Bedard and Tejada deals done....and if he didn't move quickly to re-sign Bedard, then he's even smarter because we'd all by angry about him sitting out the first year of his new contract with an arm injury.

It's apples and oranges alright, but not Longoria and Markakis. Rather, it is Angelos and everyone else.

And, yeah, Markakis might be interested in something The Warehouse has seemingly forgotten: trying to win.

Fair money may not be fair enough if having to play for an organization that not only loses but is apparently okay with losing is part of the deal.

No-trade clause? Ha! Taking more money to forego a no-trade clause sounds like a win-win situation to me. Who is going to trade for Markakis if he's making good money? A good team in the thick of it.

And please don't tell me about risk-reward. The Orioles haven't risked anything since Albert Belle prior to the 1999 season. That's TEN years ago.

Bottom line: There's no risk in losing.

..............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Now,you're getting silly. The Orioles spent over the market to get Miguel Tejada and spent too much on a lot of free agents since Albert (who really didn't cost them that much because his contract was insured). I know people are discouraged and have a right to be, but the answer is not to fall right back into the panic mode and start spending wildly again just to make people feel good. I don't know if the O's every get off the floor, but the people in Tampa were making the same complaints about their team 18 months ago.

Say what you want about the Pedroia deal , 2 years in MVP thats great , think about it the Orioles could of had Markakis for the same money at the end of the 2007 season , but McPhail doesn't do contracts to players with 2 years in , so now he is going to pay the price for Markakis .

I think 6 years 60 mill is just about right, and might even be a little high with Pedroia just signing for 6 years 40 mill.

The people that are just saying "pay him what he wants" knows absolutely nothing about business.

How much Nick gets is a question..I think the $63mil est will be close. I just don't know why everyone is so all fired up about the O's addressing their immediate needs first. We HAVE TO make some moves this winter and the GM meetings are coming soon. The FA clock just started ticking. I think McPhail and the rest of the front office has more on their plate right now..so what's the deal if Nick gets signed B4 Spring Training starts??

So, the Orioles should have tried to lock Markakis in a few years ago when it might have been cheaper? Ahh, but that would have been risky.

Now, it will cost more. And now it is even more risky?

So the built-in excuse of it not happening before is MacPhail wasn't around so don't blame him. And now it might be getting too risky so, again, don't blame MacPhail because it is what he inherited.

Reasonable enough. It is not he who I blame.

By the way, my responses are not emotional. That was happening when Peter the Grate saved us all by vetoing Pat Gillick, not compromising with Davey Johnson, telling future Hall of Fame broadcaster, Jon Miller, anyone can sit in front of a microphone, telling loyal Rafael Palmeiro no one makes $10 mil as an Oriole then signs surly Albert Belle at $13 mil per, and stiff-arming Mike Mussina at the negotiating table because ... well, that's what Peter does. My two 81-game plans have long since expired.

I do want the Orioles to get better. Some day. But, honestly, this feels no different than the void between the Colts and the Ravens. Reading about what the Orioles are not doing is really no different than reading about the NFL not expanding or not wanting Baltimore if it is expanding.

But I will continue to read.

I would like to know one thing. If the Orioles and Markakis are REALLY within "spitting distance" of each other, why the projected long void between negotiations? And who is that really supposed to help?

..............................................................................................
Pete's reply: I'm pretty sure Nick could have $60 million for six right now. I don't hear anybody in the O's front office saying that signing Nick is risky at all. It's just a matter of what's the appropriate salary.

6 years, $60 will end up getting it done. He won't get a no-trade clause and he shouldn't. The O's should retain the flexibility to trade him. It will get done, player and team will be happy, and in the meantime half of the posters here will walk around in a lather.

The Pedroia deal is good news. It sets a framework for Nick's negotiations. Gaining that perspective on market value will accelerate the deal, no doubt.

Also, those who are, please stop talking about Nick "needing to see a winner" to sign. He is a young kid who wants to trade his success for lifelong security (see Adam Loewen). If all goes well, he'll be young enough to get another strong deal when this one is done. If it doesn't (injury, regression), he's still got more than enough money to be fat and happy the rest of his life and then some. This deal will get done by February, by spring training no doubt.

In the immortal words of Waterson from Dazed and Confused, "Patience Darling, Patience..."

waspman-

IIRC the "void between negotiations" was brought about by the agent. He wanted to wait till after the free agents started getting signed to get a better handle on estimated value.

Ryan.Following your logic, if the O's extended/gave into contract demands of those players mentioned, they would have won some/lost some. Extending Bedard in hindsight would have been a bad move, in light of his arm troubles. Getting into a bidding war or coughing up major $$$ for BJ Ryan was also questionable, in light of his lost season and the fact that how much should you pay for a closer? It didn't seem to help the Jays get much better and for 47 mill I'm sure they expected to.
Fans are rightfully getting impatient but to suggest that the solution is to just throw $$$ at every decent player is far from a guarentee to winning. A competitive team needs the right combination of veterans, rookies etc and with the shot-gun approach there is likely going to be more failures than successess. Look no further than our track record dipping into the free-agent pool.

Pete's reply: Now,you're getting silly. The Orioles spent over the market to get Miguel Tejada and spent too much on a lot of free agents since Albert (who really didn't cost them that much because his contract was insured). I know people are discouraged and have a right to be, but the answer is not to fall right back into the panic mode and start spending wildly again just to make people feel good. I don't know if the O's every get off the floor, but the people in Tampa were making the same complaints about their team 18 months ago.
- - - - - - -
Miguel Tejada was a good signing. (In fact, the O's should have tweaked it up a bit to get Vladamir Guerrero that same offseason. I know he accepted less to play for Anaheim.) Vitamin viles aside, Tejada gave the O's some good years and then had good trade value.

Your point about Belle is well-taken (although he did take up a roster spot on the DL so the insurance would kick in). That should ENCOURAGE the O's to try to do a significant signing or two.

The "bad" free agent signings of more recent vintage than Belle are the mediocre types getting multi-million dollar deals. As nice of a year as Aubrey Huff had with the bat, it is getting one-dimensional folks like him that is dollar-foolish. But no one --even the Orioles -- were proclaiming Huff, Millar or anyone of that ilk as being a difference maker.

Teixeira could be a difference maker. Burnett could be a difference maker. Markakis could be a difference maker.

I understand the team -- and Markakis -- want to sign at the right price in the market they are in. But some team has to do something first for there to be an indication as to what "the market" is.

And the Orioles are a unique circumstance. They are approaching on having a full generation's worth of losing seasons. And unlike Tampa Bay, the Orioles aren't exactly gushing with outfielders at the minor league level. Their "market" is different.

Every year there is some team who the Orioles are supposed to model themselves after. If it is not Tampa Bay, it is Oakland. Or maybe Minnesota. Whatever.

I'm all for home grown talent. I'd like to see the Orioles do better in that regard. It's getting harder to go to Frederick, Bowie and Norfolk with each passing year much less the place where I once had a pair of 81-game tickets.

But here we have exactly what we want more of. If the Orioles end up signing Markakis, fine. I will be the first to apologize. But each passing day of doing nothing is a day closer Markakis will get more money, and probably from someone else.

Meanwhile, the team is also doing nothing to ensure that even if he does sign, he won't be part of a further regress that sees triple-digit losses.

..............................................................................................
Pete's reply: Markakis will sign. Stop worrying.

Chris E.:

I understand supply and demand and Capitalism just fine -- took my economic courses and did very well thank you.

You are right -- as long as there are people with very little common sense that keep spending the money, players will get paid.

That spending is sure working well for many homeowners, banks and car companies.

Sorry that I happen to be fiscally responsible with my money and believe that the balance is out of whack. We are seeing we had an artifical demand due to low interest rates and too much easy credit. Our economy is now suffering...most people do not have the money to keep escalating the demand, therefore supply of money for salaries may not contunue to be there...my point -- when do the players salaries finally adjust.

I've rarely seen a more emotional thread...and that includes subjects like politics and the environment. It amazes me that people are so adamant about the Orioles. Forget business 101 or 201 or 301...Psych 401 is in play here. I'm one of those baseball loving fans that had the joy shred from the game at the hands of Peter Angelos and this local "baseball" team. Anyone who thinks that Markasis' contract is about money is losing site of the fact that it's really about commitment to winning baseball. Consider it an incompetency tax and pay Nick more than he's worth...and tell the baseball fans of Maryland that you understand what winning baseball is: pitchers that understand changing velocity and location is truly pitching and that thing that Cabrera does is called throwing. Willing to put up with a weak hitting shortstop because his defense helps the pitchers (it was good enough for a man named Belanger)...how about some team speed and the realization that we don't need the "OBP" of players like Millar or Huff because we'd rather have baserunners that are fast enough to go from first to third. McPhail has a great track record and pedigree but I'm personally going to stay away from Orioles "baseball" until I see them moving in the right direction. Maybe I'll just drive down the parkway and watch the Nats. Take that Angelos! --- such an emotional thread.