The problem is Daniel will NEVER get it. He has had Leo Mazzone and Rick Kranitz as pitching coaches. Each of them brought a completely different style of coaching, and Daniel did not get either one. His main problem is that he has been told his entire baseball life how gifted he is, and he bought into it hook, line and sinker. He does not feel the need to do the work to make it happen.

The other problem is that his velocity dropped significantly over the season, indicating a possible elbow problem, and it would be foolish of the Orioles to pay $4.5 Million to a guy who may not be 100% healthy.

I'd like to see Daniel back next season too. He seemed to get it early in the year. Then something happened and it all fell off. But there is no chance of getting any pitcher on the FA market that has thrown 380 innings the last 2 years for that kind of money. Might as well let Cabrera do what Trachsel couldn't and just eat up some innings until the minor leaguers catch up.

Sadly enough out of all the pitchers with 15 starts Cabrera did have the 2nd lowest ERA. I would like him to go back to trying to strike everyone out though. Sure he walked a few less but he let up a lot more hits this year.

I hear what you're saying, but when was the last time the Oriole's were concerned about $4.5M. My feeling is that you lose nothing by keeping him next year. He is not blocking one of the true prospects from breaking in. The O's have made it clear that those guys will not be up until late 2009, 2010, or later. Forget making Cabrera into a superstar. If they can build his consistency enough that he can become an inning eater, I think that would be great for the future of the club. If they don't see it by the end of next year, let him go to make room for the current Bowie pitching staff.

I agree with David Steele to a certain extent.

I know that some people think it's ridiculous, but having an "innings eater" can be a very good thing, especially on a team packed with young, unproven pitchers. And the last time I checked, unless Andy MacPhail goes out and signs a few veteran starters, the 2009 Orioles starting rotation is going to consist of Jeremy Guthrie and the four youngsters who look the best in spring training.

That said, the Orioles aren't going to win next year (unless they can convince Mark Teixeira, Adam Dunn, Manny Ramirez, CC Sabathia, Ben Sheets and Francisco Rodriguez that 2009 is the year of the Oriole). So what's the harm in non-tendering Cabrera and then offering him an incentive-laden contract to come back for one more shot? It's not like the 2009 team is going to be a 12-15 game winner away from the top of the AL East. If he's healthy, let Cabrera go out there every fifth day and toss six or seven innings. If he wins, he wins. If he loses, he loses. At least the team won't continue to demoralize minor league starters who have no business pitching in the majors.

Of course, some people may say that Daniel Cabrera is a minor league starter who has no business pitching in the majors...

The ship has sailed on D-Cab. I don't think we should invest anything else into him.

I would be very disappointed if they brought back Cabrera. I think the organization owes it to the fans and the players to put a competitive team on the field and you're not going to do that w/Cabrera pitching. He certainly does not deserve $5M...I personally think he belongs at Triple A...does he have options left?

I lived through a similar time with Dennis Martinez. Great potential, gotta stick with him it was said over and over. But then after a lot of years the Orioles parted company with him and sure enough, he became one of the best pitchers going at that time. That said, I still hope I never see Cabrera in an Orioles uniform again.

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Pete's reply: I also feel strongly both ways.

I agree. Danny has to go. He's been given more than enough chances to get it together and never has. We need a whole new organizational focus on throwing strikes, and having King Wildman on our staff is contrary to that philosophy. If it all clicks for him somewhere else, so be it.

For the kind of money he can get in arbitration, the O's can get a pitcher as a free agent that throws strikes and gets people out. Or in a trade. He may not have the "arm" Cabrera supposedly has, or had, but a real pitcher vs. the thrower that Cabrera never evolved from. Enough already.

The chances of him turning his career around are very slim. He walks to many batters, hits to many batters and loses his composure way to quick. Randy Johnson was just plain wild but he had the maturity to work it out. Even if he stays with the Orioles and has a nice season or two it would be difficult to erase the 5 miserable ones before that.

If the O's let him go, where exactly would he go? Probably to another team that has no chance of contending. The Yankees wouldn't want him, because he'd find a way to throw at Jeter and ARod. The Red Sox don't need him. The Rays might want him, but I seriously doubt it...the starters they got did just fine this year. And the Blue Jays also have no need for him. So I seriously doubt that a team in the division will want him.

He'd probably succeed in the NL more that he has or would in the AL, so I don't think the O's would really be regretting it all that much. It'd be like a John Maine thing, but the O's could have gotten a lot more than what they did for Maine had they known he was that good.

Good-bye, see you maybe on another
team, if anyone wants you, no more chances, no more money wasted.

I think I am a sucker too. For some reason I would not give up on him yet. I wish he would do some offseason training and actually learn how to pitch.

Peter, there have been over 128 postings on the subject already, i was hoping that nobody else was going to chime in because as far as i am concerned this is a dead issue. Anybody that Say's that Daniel should be back here pitching again is dilusional. END OF SUBJECT.

Isn't it great though, that we have sports to distract us while congress is throwing so much of our money towards investment bankers and giving fascist powers to the executive?

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Pete's reply: I know I feel better.

I have to agree with Mr Steele, but for a somewhat different reason. We should bring back Daniel as a stop gap to help buy time from bringing up someone from double A to soon. Despite the nearly 5 million he'll make in arbitration, thats a minor investment when you consider that to bring in a pitcher better than him you need about to offer that much for multiple years. Let him try one more time and if he gets hot, that's a bonus. Otherwise let him buy us sometime for the next wave of arms to mature.

Cabrera is dead to me.

I think it is time to cut bait as well. He can't field, hit, or hold runners, this was accepatable when he could throw in the mid 90's and strike out a batter an inning. Now however, he has seemingly lost his velocity and his strikeouts have been steadily decreasing. He no longer shows the promise to be worth the bother.

This is whats wrong with baseball. One of the worst pitchers in the game gets a big raise. UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!!!

Let Cabrera become a superstar elsewhere.

Enough of this guy.

Peter - long time reader, first time writer. I'm a NJ die hard Oriole's fan...so you can imagine what my life is like up here it Crankee & Mut land. Still, I bleed Orange...and will continue to do so until the day I die. (Then we'll really find out if I bleed Orange).

Anyway, that being said....we are brought to my next point. Begrudgingly, I must agree with Mr. Steele on this. That is not to undermine your valid points, and they are valid. However, one thing stands out in my mind: I was at the Crankees-O's game 2 years ago (I think it was 2 now...) where Cabrera made that 225 million dollar team look absolutely silly with that 1-hitter performance. My lord, it was brilliant to be an Oriole fan that day, even if it was just one day.

27 is not old, especially for a kid as big as him. I say we sign him for 1 more year, but have someone (McPhail, Angelos, Flannagan) sit down with him prior and have a VERY direct and (almost) curt conversation with him to let him know that he can rest on his laurels no more. This is his last shot with the team who has nurtured and stuck with him for a decade. The heck with it, throw a little guilt on there to boot, about how "we" are just at wits end. Basically what I mean is... "Crap or get off the pot".

No matter how upset or frustrated we are, there remains one constant: Daniel DOES have that much talent. I hate to use the proverbial 'Randy Johnson' example, but it is applicable. The team is most likely not going to contend too strongly next year anyway, so the only person Cabrera is in a position to truly hurt is himself at this point.

We have a good manager now, a good person running the decisions, and a good core of young players. So if they take the risk and lose on him they can just cut him and move another rookie in his place - I say that because if he reverts to his atypical self there's not much difference between how he pitches and how a rookie would fare.

To quote Bugsy Seigel... everyone deserves a second chance. In this case, maybe a 3rd of 4th. But if he leaves...and becomes another Schilling, Moyer, or Johnson...it will hurt. Alot. Because we STILL haven't gotten over the Glen Davis deal... and that was 17 years ago. Imagine what would happen if at 28 or 29... Carbrera finally turns into a 15-20 game winner for 4 or 5 years? Yikes. That thought alone is enough to make me say invest the 4 million and give him 1 more shot.

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Pete's reply: Thanks for the thoughtful post. It is a tougher decision than it must seem to some people (including me sometimes), but it's basically the same calculation you make when you're GM stock is going down. Do you sell it and feel bad when it goes back up, or keep it and feel worse if it goes down further? I've reached the point where I just want to cut my losses with Daniel.

To me it is actually very simple. If he can still hit 95 like he once did, then sign him to eat innings. If he is a 90 mph pitcher, then there is no longer an up side to wonder about!!!

Like is said ..... simple

Cabrera should get paid what he is worth. His value is determined by how many fans buy tickets to watch him play and the number of fans who watch him throw on TV. Because Cabrera induces fans who normally watch the O's to tune out and pursue other interests, his value is regretably negative. Any chance the arbitrator will rule that Cabrera has to pay the O's 4 million per year for the privilege of destroying the good will of fans?

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Pete's reply: I don't think so, but it sounds totally reasonable to me.

Pete, do you know the date that the Orioles would have to tender Daniel by? Just wondering if maybe they have a chance to pick up another pitcher or two in the meantime. That could make the decision a bit easier.

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Pete's reply: The mandatory tender date is Dec. 20, I believe.

Peter,
You know as well I do that the interest level around the majors in him in nil. You also know that he is not bright and that this isn't a case of one day he might just get it.

He won't get close to the money in free agency that he would get in arbitration.

For every pitcher that some people say will get it, there are 5 that have seen their best days.

Carbrera has lost more games that Tejeda or Bedard or any of the other pieces that the Orioles have tried to separate themselves from, and $5M is to much to spend to walk people.

Are you kidding me. We could barely finish the season this year. WE NEED ARMS!! No matter how tired you are of watching him pitch, we cannot afford to let him go. Not even close. Give him one more year or at least until some of our younger guys are ready to pitch 150+ innnings.

The major leagues should not exist to develop pitchers. This is why there are minor leagues! Send Daniel to the minors and let him stay there until he proves he is a major leaguer.

Hey Pete; all I can say in regard to your assessment of Mr. Cabrera and what to do with him is.....AMEN

Actually $5 million is fine enough to spend on 180-200 innings. The O's are paying Gibbons $6 mil for Gibbons to play in the minors of the Brewers system. Paid Jay Payton $5 mil twice to have OPS of .668 and .637.

Oh and who said the O's could get a guy that could throw strikes for that money. Paul Byrd seems to be a guy everyone thinks of for this. He made $7.5 mil this season. And will most likely get that plus more.

"giving fascist powers to the executive"

Ben, could you tell me what fascist powers you're talking about? Easier, could you even tell me what a fascist is, without looking it up?

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Pete's reply: Where else but The Schmuck Stops Here can you have this discussion inside another discussion about Daniel Cabrera?

Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but a lot of what here I'm reading is incredibly shortsighted and one-sided (even from you, Pete).

Those having fun playing "kick D-Cab while he's down" are honing in on bad stats--and yes, I know, there's plenty of them from which to chose.

All I ask as you is that in your final preparations to run Daniel out of town on a rail, you at least consider the following facts, which I believe have largely been ignored in the above discussion.

Through May he had 12 starts in which he went 5-1 with a very respectable 3.60 ERA (by comparison, Guthrie's ERA was 3.63 for the season) . Cabrera's wins came against the Yankees (2), Red Sox, Royals and Mariners; his loss against the Angels.

As far as walks went in April/May, he had a couple of really ugly outings, but remarkably, eight times he was able to kept the free passes down to three or less a game (0 BB--3 times, 1 BB--once, 2 BB--3 times, 3 BB-once).

Over that span he gave the Orioles quality starts, pitching six or more innings in 10 of the 12 games and seven innings or more on six occasions. (Of note, only eight AL pitchers finished the season with more complete games than D-Cab. His 2 CGs not only put him in the leagues top ten in that category, but was best on the Orioles. That surely counts for something.)

So, over nearly a third of a season, Cabrera showed definite signs of improvement as a pitcher. So, unlike what many have tried to argue, this wasn't a passing two or three game streak, but a more meaningful 12 game sample.

Along with strong outing after strong outing, Daniel looked comfortable, confident, self-assured. As soon as he got the ball back from the catcher, he was toeing the rubber, ready to make the next pitch.

He had all the signs, then, of a pitcher who had really turned the corner and found himself on the mound. Some Sun sports writers were commenting as much, declaring that at long last Daniel had arrived.

The two secrets to this early success were Cabrera going nearly exclusively with his fastball and a more compact delivery that ended with him striding more towards home than first--two things that Rick Kranitz worked with him on in spring training.

So why did he fall apart from June on? You critics (Pete included) have your own answer and that is he simply reverted back to the "Bad Daniel," who always seemed to be lurking in the shadows.

If you're right, then cutting him loose is the wise thing for the O's to do, because he its likely he'll never get it.

However...

For me, the pitcher we saw early in the season was not a mirage: Daniel was much better. I hold that the rest of the season was not the step backwards that it seemed to you ; rather, than the yearly implosion we've come to expect from him, this was but a temporary setback I believe can be attributed to factors other than "Bad Daniel," namely: 1. He became too predictable, staying with the fastball-only game plan, so that teams seeing him on his second or third start against them were looking "dead red" and he was serving it up for them; 2. After 10 or so games of getting lit up consistently, he realized he needed to use his off-speed stuff more, but by that time he'd been away from it for the better part of the season, so he couldn't command it, then lost his command, composure and mechanics in short order, and bad went to worse; and 3. He was beset with injuries to his back and elbow that severely affected him for the remainder of the season, knocking the speed of his heater down to a pedestrian 88-90 mph.

If the scenario I've presented is the correct one, then getting him back on track is truly something attainable, something that he and Kranitz can put back together in spring training.

This is the intriguing mystery the O's must unravel: Were Daniel Cabrera's impressive two months a glimpse into a very productive future or a backward glance to a tantalizing, but ultimately frustrating talent that never quite developed?

Because that question is not easily answered, it benefits the Orioles to hang on to him at least one more year, especially as the team doesn't figure to contend and also as it better to err on the side of caution than to sever ties too quickly from a pitcher with the raw talent possibly to still become an ace. Granted, the team can't afford to do that indefinitely, but D-Cab showed way too much upside in 2008 to drag him out to the curb just quite yet.

Pete, do you have any sense of which way the O's are leaning concerning him or is it too early to tell. My gut says they'll probably keep him, but much may depend on how well they do in signing veteran starters over the next couple of months.

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Pete's reply: I don't know what kind of budget MacPhail will have, but I would guess it would depend on their success finding free agents pitching. If they sign two starters, I would assume they would assign his projected salary to them and let him go.

I'd keep him. He'll be overpaid, but I see it this way: we need the arms, and his is only a one-year commitment that won't cost us any draft picks. Any free agent pitcher we sign will also be overpaid, will require a multi-year deal, and would likely forfeit draft picks. Daniel can take his lumps for a year and give our Bowie rotation that extra time to develop and replace him.

For everyone who says that we should dump Cabrera, I challenge them to tell me what 5 starting pitchers that we have ready to pitch in the majors that are better. I'm not thrilled with Cabrera, but he is durable and relatively young and has talent. Sure, he's no ace, and his control problems are well-documented and frustrating. But other than Guthrie, I'm not sure if anybody else in the system has shown that they are a better option. That is more of an indictment of the O's pitching talent than an endorsement of Cabrera, but if we were willing to throw $5mm/year at Jay Payton, then surely Cabrera is worth almost as much.

Hold your nose and pay him. Replacing the innings with a free agent, even a "stop-gap", will cost 2-3 times as much. Suddenly everyone is concerned about paying millions of dollars to poor performers? It happens in every major sport these days - one of the reasons I just don't care that much anymore. Burnett had an ERA over 4 this yr and has pitched over 200 innings just twice in the last 6 yrs; only 3 times in 10 yrs. You don't don't get burned paying Daniel $5 M for 1 yr; you get burned paying the Carl Pavanos and AJ Burnetts of the world $10-12 million for 3-5 yrs.

Resign Daniel. Hope and pray that that moments comes when he does real well. Talk about how great he is and trade him to the Yankees? for 4 prospects and walk away. It likes being at a slot machine. Get a good win and don't back. Look forward with your prospects.

dude,
i don't have the inclination to research your stories but i don't remember you writing anything about daniel having a 'chip on his shoulder' during spring training. I remember your opinion piece of course, (but maybe remind me one more time). i remember daniel having a pretty solid start to the season but i don't remember any baltimore reporter providing me any useful or foretelling insight into the psyche of daniel cabrera at a time when i could have used the information.

can you please find out if i should start willis mcgahee?

and also, welcome to the internet fatboy. Its cute that you appreciate conversations within a conversation.

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Pete's reply: Can't tell you, thinboy, unless you tell me who else you have. Willis will play, if that's what you want to know.

I am not over the dumping of Bradford to save some money and that was a guy who was very effective in his nearly 2 yr. stint in Baltimore. I do however feel that signing Daniel would be a huge mistake. Potential is just that and if the O's are looking to save money for real pitching than D Cab has to go.

Daniel isn't the innings eater anymore because you need to actually stay in the game by not hitting batters or walking 5-7 guys. I am not kicking Daniel when he is down because I was a big supporter, but you don't keep paying money because there is a chance he might get it. Look at the dumb contracts that teams throw at players in the NBA and NFL because the guy was a high draft pick and they thought he was in the wrong system and how many times do those guys get better?

I hope Daniel succeeds, but it wont be next year and what if it is next year? Do you trust him enough to lock him up long term? I don't.

There is only one way this team can contend and that's with 2 proven starters to go with Jeremy and Daniel isn't one of them.

Please don't put AJ in the same group as Pavano, as that's a joke!

Pete. I'm sorry robertdel called you a "fatboy". Pesonally, I don't think you're all that fat. And by the way, shouldn't it be fat boy?

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Pete's reply: I would have been more offended if he had called me fat man. Fat boy made me feel younger.

I'm not sure what tie-in fascism has with this conversation, either. As Crash Davis might say, strikeouts are fascist, but Daniel doesn't strike people out anymore. Throw ground balls. They're more democratic.