I was having fun teasing the Ms on their blog site. Roch, posts appear immediately there, why not here?

I'm sure it's because of concerns over language. On rare occasion, I have to delete or clean up comments. Not yours, of course!

Whew. Thanks, Roch.

When the Cubs come asking for Roberts, it's (Rich) Hill and (Felix) Pie or say bye-bye.

Really, Gallagher, Marshall, and Cedeno for Roberts would have been highway robbery. Getting two twenty-five year-olds who were mediocre and terrible in the National League Central is not the answer.

Thanks for informing us it is inaccurate. The thought of giving up 103 runs and a .377 OBP with 50 SB's and our only All Star from last year and getting back a guy with a .203 average, a B prospect and a guy who never showed a winning record when pitching over 50 innings in minor league ball is too tough to take.

I have more faith in Syd Thrift than AM if he made that deal.

If he's going to trade Roberts to the Cubs, you've got to get something respectable such as Pie or Murton back to replace the loss of offense. This would qualfiy as the worst trade since Glen Davis if it occurs as reported on OH.

Is there any truth to the rumor that Brian Roberts wants to be dealt because Mayor Carcetti shut off the funding to the homicide investigation of the 23 bodies in the abandoned row houses.

Roch

McPhail is quoted in your blog as calling the rumor "Very Inaccurate". Could that mean that the pieces coming back are "very inaccurate"?

Dream on, there is no way your are getting Pie and Hill. First of all, Roberts isn't worth as much as Hill alone, if it were straight up it would be a ripoff in favor of the O's. Roberts is a roider whose stock has fallen, he has only hit over .300 once and 50 SB's last year was by far his career best. He is more like a .285/.350/.410 with around 12 hr's, 60 rbi, and 35 sb's. Definately a good player, but not worth the Cubs best young lefty and their CF of the future.

Earl Weaver - I am with you!

Why give up the best leadoff hitter in baseball for a SS who has seen his average fall .100 points over 3 years and another journeyman pitcher? Gallagher looks like a good pick up, but is not enough by himself to even out the deal.

Especially when you look at what Oakland got for Swisher, this is not a good enough return. If this deal happens and it looks like this then it is hard to argue this is not all a salary dump...

By the way, this is a typical experience at the Orioles Hangout. Their "insiders" say they know people who text message them (it is always a text message, never a call or email…) that a deal is done and people go nuts. Then, 3 or 4 hours later, when no deal is announced, the insider says some snafu happened like PA held it up or the other team changed the offer, etc. Funny how that happens.

There is one guy there who may actually have some real info but I think most of it is just BS.

I have something I think you all ought to know about. It seems that Mr. MacPhail doesn't think too highly of our worth. He put this team together because he thought we'd be bad enough to finish dead last, knocking attendance down to the point where he could move the team to Indianapolis... and get rid of all of us for better personnel.

Even you, Roch.

It looks like teams are really playing the Orioles for fools, expecting them to give up some great players in exchange for old minor leaguers.

(I can't blame 'em. The Braves offered the Orioles a player that they were about to release as one of two players for Roberts and Penn last year, and it took Angelos' intervention to block the deal. Plus, if the players' agents can consistantly fleece the Orioles, then why wouldn't opposing GMs think that they could, too?)

The smart move might be to hold Bedard and Roberts until the trading deadline, and hope that neither of them gets injured. That way, the teams looking to trade will feel their needs more accutely, and some other team whose starting pitcher or second baseman goes down with an injury might add to the demand.

It could mean a lot of things. We could be dealing in semantics here. Maybe the two sides are waiting for MLB approval - a formality here - or maybe the players involved are different from what's being reported. Or maybe none of it's true. Right now, at this hour, I'm just relaying what the Orioles are saying.

Jack-- You forget that Roberts has put up those numbers against AL East pitching. He will tear up the NL Central.

He will bring back Pie and Hill, or he won't be traded to the Cubs.

MacPhail is not Flanagan, Beattie, Duquette or Thrift.

This package does not excite me and I am guessing that the rumors are false. For Roberts, I want at least Felix Pie in the package. I don't see the Cubs including Rich Hill, but either Gallagher or Marshall along with Cedeno would be fine, but we have to get Pie. But with Pie, we have CF manned. It also allows us to consider Luke Scott in a a package with Bedard to get Jones and Clements along with the 19 year pitcher Chris Tillman and 17 year old SS Carlos Triunfel. We would have an outfiled set for the next four years at least and one that would include speed, power and defense with Nick, Felix and Adam. Now that would be rebuilding.

I can't believe that Aubrey pulled his groin working on his hand to eye corrdination. I am telling you we have to get Costanzo's mother on the case.

v is for Vote no on Gallagher, Marshall and Cedeno for Roberts.

if true they are past losing 100 games and targeting 110

It was just reported on ESPN1300 Balt. that Brian Roberts was traded to the Cubs. I am not sure how true this is.

Pie and Hill?

It's way too early to be drinking...

Sounds good, Jack. If Roberts is so mediocre why have the Cubs been salivating over him for the past 3 months? It's pretty easy to make the AL all-star team so I see where you are coming from. I had Rich Hill on my fantasy team and he was solid--he's not an ace by any stretch. Don't know much about Pie other than his production numbers are fairly pedestrian. His numbers suggest he is a good fielder with speed. We could always resign Patterson if that's what we want out of CF. Jack--you don't fill a glaring hole without giving up someone in your organization that you like. You also conveniently omitted Roberts ability to produce runs on a team that has a very hard time producing them.

I would agree with Jack somewhat! I think Hill is a special talent who had very similiar numbers to Bedard, although pitching in the NL Central. Hill still has top rotation potential. However, I would be okay with Pie thrown in there with Gallagher and Marshall or Cedeno. With Soriano and Fukodome locked up for like 11 years combined, the only void is in center field, where I think Tyler Colvin will soon fill.

Gallagher-Marshall- Cedeno- That is a fact

I have a pretty dirty mouth. Thanks, Roch, for cleaning up my language.

O's should not trade E. Bedard or B. Roberts. Pitching, developing pitching, and good defense are the ways the O's can win right now. The O's will not outslug anyone. Good defense begins up the middle - Baseball 101. Roberts/Hernandez is fine. Ramon should bounce back. The O's should sign C. Patterson to a two-year deal.

I would never curse here Roch, you know that..... :-)

How about Brian Roberts to the St. Louis Cardinals for 20 year-old AA prospects Colby Rasmus (CF) and Jaime Garcia (SP)?

The Cardinals now have Adam Kennedy at 2B, and Roberts would be a huge upgrade.

As a Cubs fan I have to say I am in tears laughing so hard over some of these posts. First off Andy MacPhail is an awful GM (Cubs fans know from experience). So if he is really pulling the trigger on these trades nothing is out of the realm of possibility...and I mean nothing.

For those of you crooning over Pie I really wouldn't get your hopes up. If I remember correctly don't you already have the services of a former Cub 'can't miss CF prospect' in Cory Donald Patterson, because thats exactly what Pie is.

Roch, check out today's Chicago Tribune, Sports Section story on Roberts, second line, "This deal is almost certainly going to happen-the only question is when and how much is it going to cost the Cubs." Methinks Roberts is gone!

Dave,

Please stop speaking here... Hill, and Pie? Rasmus and Garcia?

Are you insane? Rasmus is the best prospect in baseball... we are talking about a good, not great player in Brian Roberts...

Marshall is a long-shot to be a successful AL starter, but he is someone that could give you 100 IP out of the Pen... Gallagher is good prospect, with the upside of a 3rd starter... Cedeno has fanastic range, a great arm... and between last year in AAA, and his Winter ball numbers this year there is reason to believe he has improved offensively... onbase% wayup..

I wanted Murton, EPatterson, and Gallagher.. but this trade is more than fair.

I love how all the posters on the Tribune web page hate the trade also. They think they're giving up too much, and all of us think we're not getting enough. I guess it goes to show how tough it really is to be a GM.

I agree Alan. I think Roberts is gone and I agree with the article, including Gallagher, Murton, and Marshall or Cedeno in the trade.

Here's a view from the "other" side...

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2008/01/looking-like-a.html

These don't seem like rumors...Roch, any word of any press conferences being scheduled?

Roch, the Rays are definitely looking better offensively. One thing to consider that this is not an overnight thing—they’ve been improving in that area incrementally over the last few years. They will take a step up when their pitching does the same. Last year, James Shields made some big strides and he and Kazmir make a decent young two for a noncontender. If any of the rest of their pitchers come along, they might leave the O’s in the dust.

Speaking of Tampa, you would think that their good offense/bad pitching (in terms of homegrown players) in theory might make them good trade partners with the bad offense/good pitching O’s. The O’s are on the wrong side of this one—who wants to deal good young pitching to another team in the division—but you’d think that maybe they could work something out.

The Huff stuff—I’m just not even going to go there. I’m sure at minimum three jokes come to everyone’s mind.

Despite the trade rumors, I’m still sticking with Roberts and Bedard not getting dealt before the season starts. I know that this means that, two minutes after I hit “Post,” one of them will get dealt. But I’m comfortable with that.

Chris,

First off, this is an open blog. Grow up and get over it, dude.

Second, what makes you think that Rasmus is the best prospect in baseball? Baseball America gave that honor to Reds CF prospect Jay Bruce. What's your source?

Third, the fact that you "wanted" Murton, Eric Patterson, and Gallagher for Roberts shows the extent of your baseball knowledge. Are you a Cubs fan?

Comparing this trade to the Swisher trade is just ridiculous and would lead me to believe that the rumors inaccurate, maybe the teams have something in place but we don't know everything yet.

I also have always had a problem with the Orioles need to get "BIG League Ready" talent in trades... I would rather get the best guy than the most-ready guy. I think that is why we get jacked in all these trades.

OLD? Roberts is going to be 30 and the Orioles might get three guys none of whom are older than 25.

This trade is about getting younger and stockpiling young talent. We aren't going to win with Roberts next year and when it comes time to re-up or let him walk, well do YOU want to pay him the money he will want when he is 33-35?

Roberts' main asset is his speed, that is usually the first thing to go. I love Brian as much as the next O's fan but this is the type of deal that needs to be done.

Given the age and the timing of where the Orioles stand as a team right now Roberts and Tejada HAD to be moved.

Some of these comments are hysterical. Did anyone bother to look at ANY of these guys stats before mouthing off? The fact that someone called the three players in the rumor OLD just proves that some need to do research before jumping online.

Man, I read an article on the sun.com Sports home page too quickly and thought that, beginning at 10:00 a.m., they were going to start "demolishing the Orioles", but I didn't see the very key word, "Jumbotron". Whew!

Then I read about the Roberts trade and thought that maybe my first reading was accurate.

A for ahhhhh...

Roch,
Thie Roberts rumor is blowing up Roch. Phil Rogers from the Trib is reporting that this is not dead yet.

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2008/01/looking-like-a.html

Please offer some clarity here.

We are rebuilding people, we need to make this deal. The pitchers the Cubs are offering are solid prospects. Let B Rob take his lies to Chicago.

Replacing B-Rob at the top of the lineup won't be easy; if he's traded, he'd better bring excellent return.

Chorye Spoone. That's a pseudonym, right? Gotta be.... LOL

You have to trade Bedard & Roberts, they dont want any part of this freak show. They are out of here once their contracts run out. Trade them now for prospects.

Angelos will probably nix it anyway since he has such a huge man crush on BROB

Here is what they are saying in the Chicago Trib blog:
http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2008/01/looking-like-a.html

Roberts plays 2b...expendable

James - so by your assumption would Jeter not be worth what he wants because he commands big money at age 33-34 and range is one of the first things to go? Perhaps we should judge players on their individual performance basis and not use some ridiculous age limit to determine a player's worth.

aweful deal...and the steroid issue should have no bearring on this deal. That was 2003, Roberts made a heart fealt appologie, and has made up for his actions both on and off the field in my opinion. Also, he took them in 2003 according to the story, and has still put up solid numbers offensively and defensevely in the years since. If thats what the Cubs are offering, a new trade partner would be wise.

So how many people are going to cut and paste the link to Phil Rogers' blog. I count three so far - not including Roch's link at the top.

r is for redundant

Tracy - The falw in your example is the idea that Jeter was ever a good SS!

Good hitter? Absolutely? Good SS? The product of 1 play in the WS and great PR. Jeter has always been little more than a mediocre SS with a pretty face.

A better example would be Brooks at 3B - he was well over 30 when he proved his HOF credentials on a national stage but, if age is the sole criteria, the O's should have DFA'd Brooks before 1970 because he would have had no value.

This is my complaint about all of the stat geeks - if you take this stuff out of context you end up being convinced of things that are illogical or just plain silly - "and [you] have the stats to back it up!!..."

JWBBZ's - WHAT?????????

"James - so by your assumption would Jeter not be worth what he wants because he commands big money at age 33-34 and range is one of the first things to go?"

ah...yea Jeter is getting up in age for a middle infielder and his defense, despite the gold gloves, has been at best average, in most years clearly below average. He has little power as well.

I do think he is a good player but 20 mil or so a year? Only the Yankees can afford to pay that for the overall production Jeter provides.

Tracy - Roberts is not Jeter. Jeter is a HOF player, Roberts is not.

Jeter has a ton of rings, Roberts does not

I HATE Jeter, but there is no way Roberts is anywhere near Jeter's caliber of player.

The Yankees aren't rebuilding, the Orioles are. We need to think about the future of this team and, unfortunately, Roberts does not fit into it. I wish it were different, I wish Javy Lopez continued to hit 40HRs and became the center piece we thought he would be. I wish huff belted 35 HRs last year. I wish Sammy Sosa came in here and hit 30 and bouyed this team up none of those things happen.

When you rebuild you need to make moves like this. It is terrible, but it needs to be done. We need to get younger and Roberts does not fit into those plans.

There is no glaring hole at 2B for the Cubs. This will be a marginal offensive upgrade, giving them the speed and left handed bat they are looking for. This is a trade Hendry wants to make, he doesn't NEED to do it, we have an above average 2B already.

Wow most people in Chicago would hate this deal because they are giving up a 4th outfielder and 2 back of the roation starters for an all star 2nd baseman in the prime of his career....I guess 100 years of losing will make you a little crazy, they want the Orioles to "throw in" Bedard too!

Roch: With all the innuendo flying around the internet concerning the Roberts trade to the Cubs, it seems appropriate to mention I just heard that the grandfather of a certain Orioles message board publisher was the headlines editor for the Chicago Tribune during election year in 1948. Can you confirm?

If Brian Roberts is truly leaving the Orioles, I feel the most sorrow for the young fans in Baltimore. When I was growing up following the Birds, my friends and I always had a Brooks, Frank, Boog, Eddie, Mark, Jim or someone like them to embrace as our heroes, and it always gave us a reason to look forward to going to the ballpark to cheer them on - it didn't matter that they didn't always have a great season, it was simply a child's love affair with the sport. Granted, free agency and its revolving door effectively changed the landscape on that way of thinking, but occasionally someone still comes along who embraces Baltimore and the "Oriole way", giving the fans some hope for "something better". Cal Ripken was one of them. Brian Roberts was quickly becoming one also, but alas, it appears that now that's being nipped in the bud. Oh, well, let's rebuild... the heck with all the disappointed youngsters (and young at heart) who now have to find a new hero. Filling the stands involves not just winning games, but also winning hearts, and with this latest move the Orioles are showing that they have problems doing either.

Imagine if BRob and Bedard were playing for other teams, and we were in hot pursuit to get them, almost everyone in this blog would be giddy and would be saying the Orioles are finally turning the corner. I think it's insane to trade BRob, and we should do everything possible to keep Bedard here. The rumored trade with Chicago would be a grave mistake. It would take us to a new level of mediocrity.

To those people who are complaining about trading Bedard and Roberts, what would you have us do? Bedard seems certain to test the free agent waters after 09 unless we overpay for him by an enormous amount now. In all seriousness, to get him to give up his free agency years, we would have to guarantee him around 18 mil annually for 6 or 7 years. The longer we wait, the more it will cost. You can debate all you want whether that's a worthy investment, but I don't see Angelos shelling it out. The longer we wait to trade him, the less his value in prospects is, and the longer we have to wait to complete the rebuilding process.

As for Roberts, the package we'd be receiving from the Cubs is weak in my mind, so I'm not all that keen on the trade. However, I do still think we need to trade him. He's 30, about to enter his decline phase, and would require another 2-3 years guaranteed after 09. It would basically be a repeat of the Melvin Mora signing. Hold out for a good package for him with at least one "long term piece of the puzzle" (Pie, Hill, etc) and make the trade. What we need are guys who are under club control for 5-6 years and will be impact players during that time.

Roberts for Pie and Gallagher

Bedard for Jones and Tillman

Roch, got a sighting of your boy....

http://www.tmz.com/tmz_main_video?titleid=1372119266

http://www.tmz.com/?sem=1&ncid=AOLTMZ00170000000001

On that second one, scroll down a few entries.

I guess Hyde is an upgrade from the Hippo in Balmer.... :-)

Tom - Kind of my point...Jeter is worth more to the Yankees than just one particular aspect of his position (which in your opinion is overrated). But you did provide a better example with Brooks...although back then we didn't throw players away as early because of expected decline, because contract prices weren't anywhere near the issue they are now.

Jeff - The Yankees overpay for everyone. And I don't think that Roberts would ever expect to be paid $20MM a year. The point was that how many teams with a guy like Derek Jeter would look to replace him simply because of his age? When he starts to show that he can no longer handle the position then so be it.

James - I'm not sure what difference it makes how many rings a guy has...if Jeter had played his career on a team like the Rays would that have made him less of a player because he played on a bad team, I'm not following. I still don't think that there is any reason why Roberts can't be a guy who stays through the rebuild...if we get a big enough return for him that's one thing, but personally I don't think the proposed trade package from the Cubs really helps the rebuild.

Ryan CMU-- Kudos on a strong post!

To accept anything less than one top prospect (e.g. Pie, Jones) for Roberts or Bedard would be foolish. Really, I think Bedard should bring in two top prospects, though.

And if the Orioles didn't already have Bedard and Roberts, but acquired them this offseason, it would get them to....fourth place!

As for when to trade that pair, it must be done before next offseason, but I think that injuries and unexpected teams in and out of contention will increase the value of Bedard and Roberts during this season. A late July deal will probably bring back more in trade than what we're currently seeing, provided that you're willing to take the risk that one or both of them get injured. I'll take that risk, given the paltry offers currently on the table.

Larry Stone of the Seattle Times is reporting the following:

Bavasi is said to be trying to keep Morrow out of any deal, but asked in general terms Tuesday if Morrow was untouchable, he replied:
"By definition — no-trade clauses — there are very few untouchables. You can't take that approach and get much better. Obviously, certain guys on the team are untouchable, but generally speaking, they're not young kids."
Does anyone else think that Seattle might be blinking?
Seattle has insisted the reason that they wanted to hold back Morrow was they needed him in their rotation; however, if they add Bedard they would not have a place for him. What they really need is a seventh or eighth inning guy. Why not offer Bradford, too, if it will get us a package of Jones, Clement and Morrow.
Trading Jones will leave Seattle thin in the OF, and Their FO is concerned that Balentin is not ready for prime time. Adding Luke Scott and Payton to the package for Balentin would meet their current needs and give us three solid prospects (Jones, Balentin, and Reimold) for CF and LF with Brandon Tripp and Keiron Pope a couple of years behind them.
Yes, that will take more power away from THIS YEAR’S line up but look at the potential for the future.

If all the Gallagher/Marshall/Cedeno talks happen, it's a good deal for Baltimore and a bad deal for the Cubs.

Gallaghers a potential 2/3 type pitcher (probably more a potential solid 3, decent 2) that can eat innings and has good stuff. He's somewhat underrated, even by Cubs fans. He can run the fastball up into the mid-90's, although he's better off in the low-90's and getting good downward movement on the 2-seamer. Marshall has to work on his endurance, but there's no reason he can't be a solid back end guy that, in a best case scenario, is a decent 3. Cedeno's more of a gamble right now. The tools are there, although I wonder if he isn't more of a utility guy at the next level. THat said, there aren't that many shortstops available, and the Orioles could use one at the upper levels.

Yes, I know Orioles fans love Brian Roberts. But ... his offensive production has skewed upwards when his BABIP has been high (05/07). In the other two years when he's been the main guy at 2nd (04/06) his offense at 2nd just doesn't make this worthwhile. The chances of his BABIP coming down from .329 last year is high. I can buy 04 as a "first year as a starter" numbers, and I think most can agree his 05 power is unlikely to ever show itself again. I think his real numbers are somewhere between his 06/07 performance. Even if he puts up his 07 performance again, he's only a marginal improvement on Mark DeRosa for the Cubs, which is why plenty of Cubs fans don't like this deal. There's some other interesting data out there, but his 05/07 years, he was more of a flyball hitter. The PED's thing isn't even a huge issue, as I think most fans know that there are just too many folks that have potentially used PED's.

Short of it is, if this trade happens, this is a good deal for Baltimore. It'll be nice to see some intriguing young talent at OPACY in the next few years. And getting two arms is probably better for Baltimore considering the hit and miss rate on arms. This deal would be, from a relative perspective, better than what the Orioles got for Tejada (Gallagher would probably be the best prospect in this, although some folks might lean Patton, but I tend to think his average stuff and whether or not he can eat innings makes Patton more of a 3/4 projection). This could free Baltimore up to take another position player instead of Brandon Morrow from Seattle (Morrow's a risk, although he's underrated as well, largely because he was rushed and thrown in the pen). If the Orioles can pull off a package of Jones/Clement and one, then this would've been a heck of an offseason for them.

Need to pull this trade off...if they offer Sean Marshall and Sean Gallagher and Ronny Cedeno and Matt Murton.

Are the ORIOLES trying to get rid of any player who might demand 'big-bucks'??? The O's need an owner who is willing to spend on some talent!!! NOT TO MENTALLY MASTURBATE ON FICTICIOUS TRADE SCENARIOS!!!

Tracy,

Roberts has SAID he's not interested in staying through the rebuild!

"Are the ORIOLES trying to get rid of any player who might demand 'big-bucks'??? The O's need an owner who is willing to spend on some talent!!!"

The one area where Peter A has actually done well over the years is spending money. Baltimore was actually leading MLB in payroll in the late 90's and even last year they spent a ton per win. They were actually 10th in payroll last year, which, given the size of the market, seems fairly generous.

As for this year, I would expect a rebuilding process to include dumping of payroll.

Now if payroll were to dip under say 50 million and stay there for multiple seasons you would have a valid point.

Tom D, please never , never again make that kind of analogy using Brooks Robinson on this blog. DFA Brooks? No value?
This is treason at best, absurd for sure. I will have to hunt you down if you that again. :-)
That is simply nuts. Brooks nothing before the 70 Series? He was an annual all star by then , had several gold gloves by then, & had been the AL MVP in 1964!

Roch,
Just out of curiousity, what blog post got you the most comments?

Tony, you can BABIP all you want, but two # 5 starters in the NL Central, plus one utility infielder, does not come close to equal value for a 50 SB, .800 OPS, 100+ runs All Star infielder.

If it does, then the Orioles should trade Garrett Olson, Hayden Penn, and Luis Hernandez to the Mets for Jose Reyes.

No Jeff, Roberts said he doesn't know how he feels about a rebuild because he wants to win and young players don't neccessarily translate to a lot of wins right away. But he also said in an article later that same week that he still wouldn't mind spending his entire career as an Oriole.

Roberts is far more likely to stay around if the situation is handled right than most believe Bedard to be.

Look, this is just a flat out awful trade. Cedeno has had more than ample time to prove he can hit NL Central pitching. He'll be a disaster against the Sox and Yankee and Jay and Rays staff. Forget him.

Marshall is less than adequate and an unnecessary addition when you consider we just added Patton and Albers from HOU.

Gallagher is a "B" prospect according to Sickels. Not B+, Not A-. A "B".

Would someone tell me how this replaces Roberts 103 runs last year, his 50 SB, and his .377 OBP?

Just a disaster. I am not reluctant to trade Roberts, but for a fair return meaning you've got to get someone who projects to actually make it...not might make it. I'd feel better if Pie or Murton were in the deal to replace some of the lost offense. Personally, I'd rather keep Roberts. McPhail said he'd have to be really impressed to deal one of our top players. Well if Ronny Cedeneo, a "B prospect and a guy who couldn't consistently win in the minors is "impressive", then welcome back Sid Thrift.

James From Hampden - If greatness were determined by how many WS rings you acquire we would only have NY Yankees in the HOF. Similarly, it is often hard to separate Jeter's HOF status from his uniform.

With his offensive ability but defensive weaknesses, if he were playing for KC, St Louis, Atlanta - even Baltimore - he would be respected but he would not be one of the highest paid players in the game. He might not even be mentioned as a HOF candidate. Like, for example, Sweeny in KC and Helton in Colorado.

Put Jeter in a different lineup on a different team and how many WS rings will he have? If you play for the team that has the highest payroll in baseball history season after season you are going to win a few rings and have a few more opportunities to excel than someone who does not.

Roberts is a different hitter. He has played most of his career on a mediocre team that lacks offense. He has been over 600 AB only twice in his career. In the seasons where he has been over 600 AB his numbers look very comparable to Jeter's. Roberts is also far superior defensively (something you think might be important for a middle infielder). If Roberts played for the Yankees his whole career instead of the O’s the stat geeks would be pasting his picture all over the walls of their parent’s basement.

But, finally, that wasn’t Tracy’s point anyway. His point, I believe, is that basing an evaluation of a player primarily on his age and not his overall performance is short sighted. And he is right.

ofahn - I like your thinking but MacPhail has said he thinks Scott is the key to the Tejada trade. I do not see him being traded.

Why are we writing off Gallagher and Marshall as #4 or #5 starters? Gallagher is only 22 and had very good AAA numbers. It is far too soon to categorize him as a #4 or #5. Marshall had a respectable 3.97 ERA last season, and is left handed and only 25 years old, but already with a few years of MLB experience. As for Cedeno, most reports I've read feel he has the ability to be a ML starter at SS. He had far better success at AAA than Luis Hernandez.

FWIW though, I would rather have Eric Patterson than Ronny Cedeno. I'm fine with the 2 pitchers. I'd be okay with Murton, but he wouldn't really have a place on this team, assuming we acquire a CF, unless he or Scott are flipped to Seattle to beef up that Bedard deal. If we get Cedeno instead of Patterson, we would need to get Jose Lopez or Chen from the M's to play 2nd.

DMG, trades like this are based off value. And Gallagher's value is much better than you might think. There isn't really a huge negative on Gallagher that would suggest a huge bust potential. BA mentioned in late 2007 that he was a possible 2 projection, not a 5.

The other thing is that 2nd base is actually one of the easier positions to find capable talent. Now, not saying Roberts is easily replaceable (I think he had a very good VORP this past year), but if his production drops, as most anticipate, then he becomes an average 2nd baseman.

DMG, trades like this are based off value. And Gallagher's value is much better than you might think. There isn't really a huge negative on Gallagher that would suggest a huge bust potential. BA mentioned in late 2007 that he was a possible 2 projection, not a 5.

The other thing is that 2nd base is actually one of the easier positions to find capable talent. Now, not saying Roberts is easily replaceable (I think he had a very good VORP this past year), but if his production drops, as most anticipate, then he becomes an average 2nd baseman.

Tracy,

Get real. He's signed for 2 years. Read what he said...young players don't translate to wins right away, and he wants to win. He'll be 32. Figure it out.

Brian - Calm down!!!! I was using Brooks in refrence to James' arguement. The point is Brooks was a great 3B up to his final season - regardless of how old he was.

Also, WE (Baltimorons) knew Brooks was THE 3B. The rest of America was stuck on Clete Boyer until the 1970 WS proved them wrong.

Jeff - It was Mora who said he would not want to stay through a rebuild. Roberts only said he would have to see what happens.

Not exactly the pledge of loyalty many seem to want but not a threat to bolt, either.

If they trade Roberts, who plays second base? What about getting Mike Fontenot back in the deal?

Can McPhail pull off a significant trade with another team besides the Cubs?

I really feel that the Orioles should hang on to Roberts. Not only is he an excellent defensive second baseman, but maybe more importantly to this club, an accomplished leadoff hitter. Who bats leadoff if they trade him? Make the Bedard trade, but hang on to BRobby.

Ok Tom, but any negative comments with Brooks in the same sentence makes my blood boil......

Clete Boyer??? LOL.

TomD

While I understand MacPhail’s reluctance to give up the one bonifide power source he has acquired SO FAR, I still think he might consider it if the player has as much upside as Balentin. Scott was a good pick up; however, he is basically a player without a plus defensive position. If he could make the adjustment to 1B and field the position adequately, I would say keep him. That may be want happens.

That being said, if I were Andy M and I could land Jones and Balentin from Seattle by including Payton and Scott, I would do it in a NY minute. The more quality prospects you have to choose from the greater the chance that at least one of them becomes an impact player this year.

I recognize that some of your past postings have supported adding FAs instead of trading our marketable talent and starting over but I think that adding REAL young talent and clearing out the deadwood BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY will allow this team to compete for the post season in the 2009 season.

Regardless of how it works out we are relegated to being hopeful bystanders.

Here's the full text reprint of the Q&A with Brian Roberts. He's not resigning here!

President of baseball operations Andy MacPhail has said he would like the team to get younger and cheaper. Are you willing to be a part of a rebuilding process?

Young players at the major league level, they don’t usually translate into lots and lots of wins. I think the people in charge will weigh that option of do we have a better chance of winning for a long period of time doing that or do we build around the people that we have. That’s not my call. But do I want to be a part of a total tear-down and rebuild? I don’t know if that was necessarily what I had in mind a couple of years ago. We’ll see how it plays out.

You chose last offseason to eschew a multiyear deal and sign only a one-year extension because you wanted to see the direction of the team. Did what happened this past season make you glad you kept your [long-term] options open?

I did think that we were going in the right direction with our pitching ... but certainly if you take [Erik] Bedard] out of the mix or take some of those other pieces away, that definitely changes the landscape of the team. I did give up a year of my free agency because I really believed that either this past year, this coming year or next year, we would have a chance to compete at a very high level. Obviously, the next month or two will certainly give us a better indication where we’re headed.

ohfan - Your logic is precise and you get no argument from me.

One problem I have with all of the trade rumors is that they are very pitching heavy. While you can never have too many pitchers, the O's have very few position players to look forward to.

If we have to trade Bedard and are not getting a #1 or #2 starter in return the O's should push for position players. Your scenario of getting Jones and Balentin makes more sense.

If Balentin is not yet ready he would look real good in Norfolk.

If we start 2009 with a glut of really good young guys who are ready to step up (Jones, Balentin, Reimold, Yan, Kennard Jones, maybe even Murton or Patterson) it would be a good thing. As a worse case scenario, they could trade surplus guys for the pitcher they need....

I still think MacPhail is taking us down the wrong road and I am not hopefull he will get enough in a trade for either guy. If you read the comments about MacPhail the Chicago bloggers have been posting....

I hope this turns out well but I just don't see it.

ohfan - PS - re: Dead Wood: Almost overlooked are the equally hot trade rumors of Millar to Texas and Payton and Hernandez somewhere, anywhere (which makes the pursuit of Clement from Seattle make more sense).

I have said all along that a good portion of the O's problems were not the weakness of their prime players but of the supporting players.

Even if we were not going to rebuild by dumping Bedard and Roberts, clearing out Payton, Bradford, Cabrera, Gibbons, Fahey, Huff and even Millar (sorry, Jennifer) would be necessary

These Chicago Cub fans are nuts. Reading your link, they want Roberts and Bedard for Gallagher, Marshall and Cedeno. Oh, they offered to throw in Matt Murton. Just what we need, another OF/DH type. Good thing McPhail in charge because Flanigan would have been suckered in.

If you want a good laugh, go over to the Chicago Tribune website and read some of the posts on their blog. I thought that we had some stupid posts here, you won't believe what some of their posters are writing!!! Morons!

Tom D - I'm actually a "she", but thank you for understanding the point I was trying to make.

Jeff - I've already read that article, thanks....and here is an excerpt from one not long after right after Miggi was traded. (oh and just because YOU choose to view it one way doesn't mean I need to get to "get real")
------------------------------
Orioles owner Peter Angelos wished Tejada "great success in the future."

"He's a wonderful athlete, and he gave his all for the Orioles," Angelos said. " I will miss him. He's a great guy."

Several Orioles had the same reaction, including Roberts, who had listened to two years of trade speculation about Tejada.

"My initial reaction was shock ... but then you start thinking about what is next," Roberts said. "If this is the rebuilding or retooling of our team, I highly doubt it ends with Miggi. It's sad that I probably won't play on the same team with him ever again. But I don't know what the future holds for me. I love it here and I'd be happy to stay, but I may get traded for a couple of prospects, too."

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/bal-sp.tejada13dec13,0,4195629.story

Being pitching heavy is never bad. Find out who is worthy of being kept, if you have excess you can almost always trade a healthy decent pitcher for an everyday player.

I don't see the concerns with MacPhail. Ten+ years of trying to patch the team with marginal veterans hasn't worked. Unfortunately the minors are so barren you now need to step back further before moving forward.

Being 70-92 or even something closer to .500 for the next 10 years shouldn't be the goal. Trying to get to a consistent 85-95 win level should be the long term goal. Then you are consistently in the playoff hunt and regain fans in the stadium.

AGH!...Seattle must be one of those places where short-term memory runs amok, because I don't know how many times I've read:

"Seattle has offered Jones-Clement-[Some lesser prospect who's name escapes me] to trade for Bedard"

...and each time this rumor is reported, the reporter announces it like he just invented butter for the first time...

Another note is that the last time I heard the comment of having a lot of young arms and being "pitching-heavy" was in 2003. Take a look at these names:

Jason Johnson
Sid Ponson
Rodrigo Lopez
Eric Dubose
Matt Riley
Erik Bedard
Kurt Ainsworth
Damian Moss
Rick Bauer

Those were the guys who were all vying for spots to help a rotation of veterans, Omar Daal and Rick Helling. Between injuries we ended up relying on a lot of those guys. The very next year we ended up relying on rotations of:

Erik Bedard
Daniel Cabrera
Sidney Ponson
Rodrigo Lopez
Eric Dubose
Kurt Ainsworth
Matt Riley
Bruce Chen

Out of 11 names, 3-4 years later, only 1 pitcher (Erik Bedard) has turned out to be special. 2 of those guys turned out to be Average Pitchers (Rodrigo Lopez, Jason Johnson). Daniel Cabrera is still a story being told. 1-out-11 is just about what developing pitching goes for no matter what the hype.

Please tell me that the Cubs just sent us Kosuke Fukudome for B-ROB. Just being able to say his name every day would be a wonderful gift. Speaking of the Cubs, I just signed up today to the Cubs season ticket waiting list(really!). This is the waiting list to buy tickets for the full 81 game schedule. I am now number 77,642 on the waiting list. I wonder if having 81 guaranteed sell outs actually HURTS a team's chance at winning the World Series?

TomD

I agree that the trade we have already made and some that we are considering are pitching heavy. My hope is that some of the young pitching talent we’re bringing in and some that are already in our system will step up and become impact pitchers at the major league level. Adam Loewen has real number one pitcher potential. If Daniel Cabrera ever understands the concept of changing speeds and locating his fastball he can also be a number one pitcher. After that, potential number one candidates are down at the Frederick level.

If over the next couple of years several of our younger pitchers step forward, and others develop into the type of quality that other teams are so interested in, we could use that excess pitching to obtain some of the position players we’re going to end up needing. If this off-season has shown anything, good to young pitching is always in demand and if we develop it we can sell it.

That being said I would be happy if MacPhail can get quality players regardless of what position. I firmly believe that if we put enough young, talented, motivated players on the field we’ll get exciting baseball from Orioles who want to win.

What in the world are we going to do with Mora's and Gibbons's contracts? I can't put up with Mora another year talking about his Silver Slugger Award from several years back.

When did Cubs fans become as annoying as the Evil Pigs in Boston and New York? Must be a big city thing.

TOM D—Why should we concern ourselves with the posts from the Chicago bloggers? Since Andy MacPhail came to Baltimore, you have been dumping on him (e.g., “he was strictly mediocre in Chicago”) nonstop.

You say: “I hope this turns out well but I just don’t see it.”

Would you want it to turn out well? Or would you rather put your love for the Orioles aside and hope to see MacPhail make moves/not make moves that you can denigrate?

You’ve clearly articulated on several occasions that those who post here should not make personal attacks. Rather, they should discuss or argue points.

You finally gave up writing MacPhail’s name as “McFail” when enough people told you that your thoughts were being undercut by it.

I don’t doubt that you love baseball and want the Orioles to regain their prominence. But I don’t understand why you can’t get over your fixation with MacPhail as the leader you don’t want, and express positive thoughts about your hopes for the Orioles.

I sense that you have those thoughts to offer. If MacPhail does something you like, will you be able to post your approval?

Tracy - My apologies.

Cubs fans have always been annoying. You guys don't hear about it/see it because you guys don't play em. Everybody in the NL Central knows they are the worst fans this side of NY(ask fans of any NLC team, they will tell ya).

Eddie in NYC -- Thanks (I think) for the reality check on 'pitching-heavy.' Dubose, Ainsworth, Helling, Daal, Riley, Bauer...wow, those were names to conjure with (but conjuring as ineptly as Mickey Mouse in the Sorcerer's Apprentice).

At least Bruce Chen was pretty funny and for the better part of a season wasn't half bad on the mound, either--until the other teams figured out he was getting them out using smoke and mirrors.

Barry.... I still use MacFail. Until he shows me something worthy, I will stick with this. He wasn't all that great in Chicago & few tears were shed when he was ....fired.

"Even if we were not going to rebuild by dumping Bedard and Roberts, clearing out Payton, Bradford, Cabrera, Gibbons, Fahey, Huff and even Millar (sorry, Jennifer) would be necessary"

Tom D.. You are killing me. If Millar is not playing at Camden Yards this season, who else will entertain me. : )

I wanted to post the 100th comment on this. Thanks for keeping us up to date. Good job on the Anita Marks show today. That Lou Gehrig remark was classic Denis Leary.

Nothing has change with this organization. Don't kid yourself Peter a put the nix to that trade because brian is the little golden Boy. I thought that andy had full authority to do what he wants with this team and i was fooled into thinking that way. Peter is still interfering with this and until everybody wakes up in this town and just stops going to the games nothing will ever change. As long as peter owns this club it will be a second reate operation.