News from the minor leagues is always cause for hope. Did Stockstill say anything about trying to establish some baseball academies in Latin America that can really compete for the elite players?

Thanks for the info on the Hawaii Winter League.

I had noticed the number of Asian players on the rosters and was curious about the playing level.

If our prospects are doing that well at that level they may be LEGITIMATELY two years or less from contributing.

I don’t understand the Etchebarren decision. It would seem this organization could use as many teachers in the minors as it can get. Even if they felt he was not “manager” material, why not let him teach from an organized plan?

ROCH,ANY TRUTH TO THE RUMOR THAT THE ORIOLES ARE GOING TO PUT FRED HOLDSWORTH AND JOHN FLINN ON THE 40MAN ROSTER SO WE CAN USE THEM FOR TRADE BAIT TO GET THAT NEEDED POWER HITTING OUTFIELDER FOR NEXT SEASON??????? ALSO CAN YOU GET DWIGHT EVENS ON ANITA'S SHOW FOR NEXT WEEK AND ASK HIM WHY HE DID THE LINEUP TONIGHT??? ORIOLE NATION IS UPSET AGAIN!!!! I'AM SURE ANITA WILL ASK HIM THAT HARD QUESTION ABOUT WHAT KIND OF MOTORCYCLE HE RIDES!!!!!!

If you guys want to follow Wieters and Snyder in Hawaii game by game, I've got a thread on OriolesHangout that does just that:

http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53708

Roch, Snyder appears to be in the lineup on a more consistent basis. He fouled a pitch off his foot so he was out a few games and he also attended his sister's wedding so he missed a few games for that. Snyder's problem is his lack of plate discipline as he is very aggressive at the plate and strikes out swinging a lot.

Andy Etchebarren is old. He was a part timer, never a fan favorite, and hasn't produced. Get over it. The Orioles have had plenty of Etch types over the last 10 years to replace him if that's what you want. I personally want a Grady Little type who managed the Suns A team. A winner who taught winners.

r is for do you really give a crap about this?

how serious of a prospect can snyder be if they are trying to move him to 3rd? Hopefully Billy Rowell is the 3rd baseman of the future then why are they having another 1st round pick learn that position?

Hey roch - I guess it's nice to hear all this stuff...but to be honest it reads like typical hype of prospects going nowhere fast that are "showing progress"...maybe it's just being an O's fan - you get tired of the company line and marginal high draft picks playing everywhere but the Bigs. I do think it's great that you keep tabs on it though...to bad about Etch...I remember him as an O when I was a little kid and it doesn't seem like the type of purge people are looking for - axing an Oriole oldtimer.

What about Matt Weiters?! Isn't he playing in Hawaii? Any updates?

Every time we see a shot of left field from Fenway, we see those lovely AL East standings. That 69 next to the Baltimore, yep, the team one up from the bottom, kinda dulls the picture.
I don't know how anyone can be complaining about almost any move McPhail makes re the O's minor leagues, for starters. At least he seems committed to begin cleaning up that mess, and if it means ridding the organization of guys who have gotten used to losing, and on top of that have not been so good at producing even marginal major league talent, well so be it. You can be a nice guy, be good at your job, be a good teacher, and be a winner too. Let's find those guys.

I think Andy is the first casualty of a message firing. Players, managers, and org officials alike would read the message similarly...Etch is a great guy, personality, teacher, coach, and longtime link to the Orioles way....but at the end of the day, he's consistently the holder of a losing record...it's not "okay" to lose; and, being a great guy doesn't make up for it...a great guy can be great on the sidelines...

...I loved Etch and still do...so did I love Elrod too...but we've just had waaay too many of these kinds of institutionalized "Oriole Way" icons entrench themselves into the organization and spin yarns of how great the Os were...it's as if the Oriole Way today has transformed into a dysfunctional legacy that distorts our collective memory...if you think about it, the good ole days never quite happened the way we now think they did...the Oriole Way was built on a lot of relative "no-name" hard-working types who earned their shots: players, coaches, management alike...

...today we suffer from over-protecting our precious vision of the Oriole Way...so in order to maintain our link to it, we have hired more and more former players of those days so we can never lose our that connection...in doing so, we've hired less and less coaches who have proven track records as good winning coaches...to me, this move and perhaps more to come, is MacPhail's attempt at sending messages, installing a meritocracy, and changing the culture of the organization...to me, these kinds of moves have been a longtime coming and more important than any big free agent signing can be in the longrun...

Thanks, Roch. Good stuff.

IN REGARDS TO SNYDER. IT SURE IS GREAT TO USE A HIGH FIRST ROUND PICK ON A DH. YOU MEAN TO TELL ME THAT WHERE THE ORIOLES PICK THEY COULDN'T FIND SOMEONE WITH MORE SKILLS THAN JUST HITTING?

Freddy,

Snyder was initially a catcher, then suffered a serious shoulder injury (torn rotator cuff, I believe). Since then, he's been bypassed in the organization by Wieters - so, time to learn a new position. No point on being a catcher any longer.

Hey Jim66. I noticed the same thing with the Fenway scoreboard standings...talk about rubbing it in!!!
Why is that still there? Maybe the O's management team sees it too and it will be a stark reminder how bad things were last year! Sort of like a 'motivator' to do better...

Freddy

Snyder WAS a catcher, and a darn good one. He hurt his shoulder and had it surgically repaired. Catching is out for him now, so they are trying to find a spot for him and his potent bat. Please leave the Trolling on "the Hangout"....

I just hope that Ubaldo (Jimenez or Kubatko) never loses his hair. With that name, such a fate seems inevitable.

Roch, thanks for the info from Stockstill. The Dominican Republic is so yesterday. What are the O’s doing to get a foot in Asia? They need to do something there. In case anyone hasn’t noticed, major league talent is coming from there.

Jim66: I was thinking the same thing about the shots of left field at Fenway. Don’t forget the “27” next to Baltimore under games behind. We’re worried about the Kevin Millar situation and how it affects the super intense Red Sox-Orioles rivalry, and what we should truly be enraged about is those standings. They’re roughly the same every year. That’s the cold hard reality of what we’re dealing with. We are light years behind the good teams and have been for awhile.

The saddest thing about Snyder and his lack of progress is that both Red Sox Rookie CF Jacoby Ellsbury & Yankee Rookie RHP Phillip Hughes were drafted a few picks after him in the first round. Ouch!

I agree with jim66. We need some new scenery, but I think it should be started with pitching. Hey who am I to tell you Roch. Or Andy.

Bob, I tend to agree with you on the Marks show. I was stuck in traffic heading home last night & stumbled onto the program on 105.7. It was dreadful, but not all Marks fault. It sounded as if Mr Thompson played a few games without his helmet on.... so the co-host thing isn't helping.
I recall one segment where Mr Thompson said , "well you don't see Bellichick or Dungy calling the offensive plays but Billick does, see the good teams let the coordinators do it, I don't know why Billick does it, but these other 2 don't...." that happened twice! It drove me nuts. IF Marks knew her sports well enough , & this has nothing to do with local sports, we are talking 2 well known Coaches, then she could have corrected this comment & it's major flaw.... Bellichick AND Dungy were DEFENSIVE coordinators, thus they don't call plays for the offense for good reason. They may very well be involved in the defensive signals though. Billick WAS an offensive coordinator so he feels qualified to call plays for the offense. He was labeled an "offensive genius" when he came here, but all I have seen is the offensive portion so far... but I digress. The point here was the premise of this subtle swipe at Billick's acting as offensive play caller was all wrong. I partly blame the Producer too, he should have caught this. I called in & got through & brought it up. Later some other "Side Kick" gently corrected these 2 on it , maybe it was the Producer or the guy I talked to.... in any event, the program was amateurish for the most part.
Anita probably fares much better on TV than radio, there are...shall we say, innate physical attributes that serve to distract the viewer from focusing on the various verbal & content faux pas. I can see her doing very well on a talk show like the View or Ellen.....

Roch, excellent blog! Nicely done... It sounds like Snyder could be a good BACKUP C in the bigs, to Weiters hopefully, plus serve as a utility guy playing 1B & 3B as well. Someone who could play all 3 positions would be a good asset if he can hit decently too. Maybe he plays 3 days a week & spells other guys ? I wouldn't get too worked up about finding him one position & hope he makes it as a regular there, many don't, especially O's draft picks. If he can make it up here & serve the before mentioned role, I'd consider that a success.

Sounds like dumping Etch was not a Stockstill idea....

Roch, remind those guys out in Hawaii that O's players don't have alot of success with Sushi. Their Asian teammates probably try to drag them to it alot.
I bet when they all get together to sightsee the trip to Pearl Harbor is a tad uncomfortable... :-)

I noticed those standings listed too Jim66. Too bad they weren't over Millar's shoulder on TV when he made his first pitch toss.... maybe we could send Millar back for more reunion BS & he can sneak out to the back of the scoreboard & eliminate those numbers or mix them up....ala John Beluchi in Animal House when he was in Dean Wormer's office with the horse.

Nice pt Dan

When Millar was thowing out his first pitch you think he looked out at the monster (and the O's record) and was proud to see what he helped accomplish for the O's this year? Or was he too busy living in the past and yukking it up with his Red Sox buddies?

ofanh,

There was a question the other day about the playing level of HWL. High A seems to be the consensus. The Japanese send a lot of players over, I don't know their level.

Supposedly it is a strong pitcher's league, so Snyder's numbers are impressive, although I think he has played just 15 games or so. Wieters has no HRs but several doubles, has been hitting about .300 and looks like he knows how to take a walk. He had good power in college so I assume that will come around.

I am curious to see where Wieters starts 2008. As good as he was in college, he shouldn't stay too long in A ball. It's not a stretch to see him in Bowie before the end of '08 and then a September callup in '09, starting lineup Opening Day 2010.

I wonder who represented Ellsbury and Hughes out of college. That's major talent to be dropping that low in the first round.

Phil, it would not be a stretch to see him in bowie no later then the all star game 2008, a callup in 2008 and in the majors by 09. Most scouting reports, predraft, had him listed as being a definite possibility for opening day 2009.

He is supposed to be major league ready defensively out of college, although the amount of passed balls he has in Hawaii has me wondering about that a bit.

freddy kallens - Snyder was drafted as a catcher and had pretty high marks at that position.

However, after signing, he suffered a severe shoulder injury and catching is now "off the table."

It is easy to trash the O's for the Beau Hale's and Chris Smith's who get hurt after they are drafted because we see the reports on these guys routinely.

But injuries are part of baseball and they happen to all of the teams. Every team has horror stories of high picks who either bomb out or get hurt. It is not just the O's.

It is all part of life in the large urban development.

So, the O's draft a guy who is rated as a top catcher. He gets hurt and can't catch. You are saying the O's are chumps because they are finding another role for the kid to get his talent to be major leagues?

What would you do? Release him?

So another team can sign him and, when he gets to the bigs and hits 35 HR you can scream "HOW DID THEY LET THIS GUY GET AWAY????"

Who would be the chump then?

I understand frustration. A lot of people on this blog never saw the O's win a World Series game. As far as they are concerned, The O's are right there with the Cubs in post-season failure.

Heck, a lot of people here don't even have a memory of an O's team finishing above .500.

But if you just b!&(# about everything you just become a part of the background noise. Use your mind from time to time! You might be surprised.

Roch - Just out of curiosity, does Stockstill have any Cubs connections? Just checking to see if his job is safe or not.

Does he have any timeline for when we might start seeing some of these kids in Oriole uniforms?

I realize he might not want to comment because word travels fast and some of the guys might take things different ways.

There are all kinds of sites that do projections that have Reimold in Baltimore anywhere from 2008 to 2010. It would be nice to hear what the team's thinking is.

For a guy who is supposed to be the MVP of the NL, Holliday has not looked really impressive in the post-season.

Despite the great batting stats, he also has 11 K in 36 AB, which projects to 180+ for a season.

Aside from his terrible slide into home against SD, he has not played some balls terribly well in LF, not run the bases terribly well (how "unfocused" do you have to be to get picked on such an obvious move? Papelbon could have walked the ball over to 1st and Holliday would have broke for 2nd...), and swung at a lot of breaking balls in the dirt.

And when and why did he shave his head? He looks like an extra on Prison Break.

On the other hand, .340, 36 & 137 is nothing to sneeze at. He must be one of those guys you need to see over time to appreciate.

PhilF - I would expect him to start in Frederick and be in Bowie after a month or so.

No matter how much talent he has, playing professionally is very different from what he is used to. The travel, being responsible for your own well-being, the whole deal.

I expect they will get his feet wet in as low a pressure situation as possible and then get him to a level suited to his skills ASAP.

Do not be surprised to see him in black and orange in '08, either if they feel he is ready, but I would not expect it.

HEY ROCH

MY CAPS LOCK KEY IS ON

WHAT SHOULD I DO?

A quick check, Snyder and Ellsbury were 05 picks, Hughes went in 04 as a 17-year-old. The Yankees' 05 first-rounder was HS SS C.J. Henry, 17th overall, who went to Philadelphia in the Bobby Abreu trade.

The O's drafted just 13th in 05. Some great players went ahead of Snyder: Justin Upton, Alex Gordon, Ryan Zimmerman, Ryan Braun, Troy Tulowitzki, Cameron Maybin.

Pretty remarkable to have so many picks make an impact so quickly. Upton and Maybin haven't really gotten there yet, but it's just a matter of time.

Great talent, but I think many clubs are getting past the idea that even really good players need 400-plus games in the minors before they can be considered for a callup.

I don't understand why they are moving Weiters around. This guy is the heir apparent to Hernandez behind the plate and could be a rookie catcher for the O's in 09. Surely, it is easier to find a good power hitting first baseman...

Tom D,

I am betting that you have had plenty of arguments about this before, but I don't care how a guy makes his outs, as long as he is putting up the numbers. You take the whole package. I'm sure that he could cut down on strikeouts, but do you really think he would still be hitting 36 HR? Doubt it.

However, you also cannot take at face value the numbers of a guy who plays 80 games a year at Coors. Holliday is an excellent player, but put him in a different park and those numbers will go down.

Oh and BTW his 1.000-plus OPS impresses me more than the 137 RBI.

Weiters getting his first MLB at-bat in 08 would really surprise me. If he played another position, maybe, but I bet they intend to work on his catching mechanics for at least a year. Sept 09 is more like it.

I do hope you're right about the scenario of Bowie by June. Could be. Overall they couldn't have asked for more than what he has showed in HWB.

Snyder had surgery to repair a torn labrum. This is a very difficult injury to recover from as far as throwing is concerned.

Here's a quote from a slate.com article about pitchers and labrum injuries -

...nothing taxes a shoulder like throwing a baseball. Even if a pitcher has an ideal throwing motion, the labrum suffers. Unlike the rotator cuff, a series of four small muscles that holds the shoulder in place and decelerates the arm, the collagen-based labrum can't be strengthened. As of yet, there aren't any reliable techniques to prevent labrum injuries.

The article is a little outdated (2004) but as far as I know, nothing has changed to improve recovery.

http://www.slate.com/id/2100895/

I had labrum surgery about 2 years ago as a result of a hockey injury and still have problems with the joint when trying to throw. I'm not sure if I will ever be able to throw hard again.

-Will

PhilF - Good info on the '05 draft!

Will - Good information and great article!

Keep in mind that Snyder also lost essentially a year in rehab. Given that, you could say he was an '06 pick for comparison purposes.

If he starts '08 in AA and finishes in AAA then makes the O's 25 man in '09, it would be similar to him getting there in '08. That would be pretty darn good.

Even if he does not make it until 2010, he is still doing well.

Lets hope.

PhilF - You have to love Holliday's numbers. The thing about strikeouts for me is that they are absolute 0 at bats.

What I mean is if he "had" to make the same number of outs and flew out or even ground out instead runners could move up or score, errors could be made, etc. Of course, he could also hit into double plays as well, but I think more positive would happen.

Then again, he might not have 36 HR if he made more contact... That is the quandary.

The question I have about Holliday is that I am not sure the elevator always makes it to the top floor. You do not need to be a scholar to be the MVP, but a sometimes little thought wouldn't hurt.

Getting picked off in the 8th last night was brutal. It wasn't even Papelbon's A move!

Making the weaker armed Taveras take the throw early in game one guaranteed everyone would move up another base. Holliday would have had a tougher throw, but he has an A+ arm to Taveras' B arm.

That's why I say that maybe you have to see him over the course of a season to really appreciate him.

I think where a Manny Ramirez overwhelms you and makes a lot of noise, Holliday sort of sneaks up on you.

Manny gets the oohs and aahs but when the season is over they both have 30+ HR and 110 - 130 RBI.

Papelbon's move was not even a move. I think he was just looking over and then saw how far off Holliday was. You could almost see the surprise on Papelbon's face.

Complete brain fart on the part of Holliday. How often do you see a guy get caught so far off that the 1Bman's glove blocks his hand from reaching the bag? Holliday never did touch it.

That said, I would love to have both him and Manny.

The "productive out" concept has been well-exposed as a fallacy in today's game. You either accept the stats or you don't. My gripe is with reaching out of context to downgrade a guy because he happens to have a lot of strikeouts. If he is getting on base 40 per cent of the time and slugging .600-plus, he is being incredibly productive. Looking at his strikeouts and saying "yea, but there were times when he didn't advance the runner from 2nd to 3rd" is like downgrading him for being a bad bunter. At that level of production, it's totally irrelevant.

Some folks need to get over the Kevin Millar throwing out the first pitch. Geez, if that was the only problem we have I'd let him do it every night!

Jim66... agree with your view on the McPhail moves. As bad as this team has been, we shouldn't be too quick to judge. After all, what should we do, reward all who have been with the organization the last few years for the outstanding achievements and progress the O's have accomplished on the field?

I'm an old school bird fans, go back to the sweep of 66', and I don't have an issue with the team letting Etch go. Loved him as a player, however I as well as others need to let go of the past. Brooks, F-Robby, Blair, Boog, Palmer, Cuellar, & McNally aren't trotting back onto the field. Times are different, and we just need to teach the young kids to focus on the fundamentals, and above all, RESPECT THE GAME!!

Wish I could report better news from Phoenix, but I attended yesterday's Phoenix Desert Dogs game against the Chinese national team. Reimold was 0-4 with 4 strikeouts and looked like he had no clue. Can't wait to see what he does against major league pitching.