"The Orioles are making the bullpen a priority this winter."

Haven't we heard this before? Like 2006?

I'd agree with the poster on the previous topic about a penalty for losing teams that make money. I say a story about the Pirates where they are recipients of the money shared by "small" town teams and even though their attendance is bad, they still make a significant profit.

There should be a limit where if the team is continually bad, they lose the right to the money.

I don't like to see a team like the Yankees spending so much money where it is unfair but at the same time there has to be an incentive for trying to put a winning team on the field.

Rich, that would just give Angelos another excuse to never get better, because he would lose that money right away.

My outfield for next year is Tike in left, Corey in center and Nick in right. Why sign anyone else? We need a catcher who runs balls out even though Ramon has been hitting the ball well lately.

Resigning Bedard has to be the top priority...The bullpen is next in line after him.

Bill in Elkton has to be kidding! Redmond is probably a flash in the pan who will hit 5 home runs and drive in 50-60 runs while hitting .260 if he plays left field on a regular basis in 2008. Couple that with Patterson who will probably give you what he gave us this year, a .260 average with 8 home runs and 45 RBI's, and you have no power or run producer in either of the key positions. Plus, you probably have seen the last of Patterson as he will be to expensive for the Orioles to retain in 2008.

Why sign another outfielder? Are you kidding me? We definitely need at least a left, Patterson can't seem to put an entire season together, so maybe a lf and cf. Can we just get an entire new team minus Bedard, Roberts, and Markakis? haha We definitely need a big bat, if not two.

So, Roch, who is available on the market for a closer, set-up man, a number 3 starting pitcher, a power lefty, and a big bat?

Whew, we'll be all drinking Kool-Aid with something-something in it.

Z is for ZZZ-ing when the O's don't really do anything this off-season... again.

Well? Who was on the list that Trembley wiped his...uh...tears with?
Who's on YOUR list, Roch?
There are 2 Victors on the s list at present.

Roch, remember to tell our great trainer [ 760 casulties so far this year ] let our guys rest and grow naturally during the winter. The most a pitcher can do is rub his ladies back or maby a little more. Others put on some weight till February then start running and swimming laps. Leave the dumb bells alone. If our pitchers would only swim and have more sex then me, we'll be fine and less will go down. Dr. Herb.

PF - Very good points about long term contracts. My ideal would be to stick to 3 year deals on the players you really want and 1 - 2 year deals for the role players.

The practical matter is, however, the Orioles have actually taken this approach for years and we see what happened. But, if you look at the teams the O's need to compete with or should model, you see those teams have a number of players - most no young - locked up in long term deals.

I won’t bore you with all of the details, you can look all the deals up, but NY, Boston and Toronto have more long deals than the O’s do. Of course, these are better players than Mora and Gibby (well, most). And that is part of my point!

Detroit - a team that provides the model for the O’s – got some of their key players with the extra years. (And for those who argue F.A.’s won’t sign on a losing team or need a marquee manager – Pudge and Ordonez signed before Leyland was hired, as did, I believe, Guillen!) To their credit and an example to O's NEED to follow, they signed Bonderman and Verlander to a 4 yr and 5 year deal.

Again, while it is romantic to build the team from the minors, that is always a crap shoot. We pine for the arrival of our new C, LF, 3B, 1B and pitching staff, but we have to also remember Sam Horn, Jim Fuller, Bob Bonner, Beau Hale, Ryan Minor, etc. Sometimes the best laid plans of mice and men….

The quickest way and best way for the O's to get better is to bring in proven performers and supplement them with our youth. All of the teams the O's need to shoot for got there with FA signings and a couple strategic trades. The kids will be ready when they are ready. If we have a BETTER player in their way then we have a great trade opportunity – one of the two can help fill other needs.

The problem with the Mora deal is the no trade. Lots of teams would love to get a guy like him but it will cost $ to move him - and you can't blame Mora for that. Gibby never should have been offered more than a 2 year deal. But signing Hunter to a 6 year deal has little in common with the Mora and Gibbons deals. Hunter is not a guy with just 1 good year.

Hunter would come from an organization where winning is expected and he IS a team leader. Hunter is also a Gold Glove CF with a serious RBI bat and HOF numbers. He is not a middling player. Even if his skills go by the end of the deal, so? It is not going to happen overnight. He would retire in an Orioles uniform and may even wear our hat in the HOF.

It is not like we have never had a great player in the twilight of his career on the team.

My point is this - if we are going to sign guys like Kenny Lofton (PLEASE NO!!!), Cliff Floyd, Jeff Weaver, even Sean Casey, keep it to 1, 2 year (with performance options). But if we have a shot at a Tori Hunter (and we do), we should not be afraid of a 5 or 6 year deal.

Sorry about the length.

Come on now Roch... Trembley's pitching wish list is nothing more than a eerie replay of 2006 plan. The architect of that should be given the phone number of the nearest Mayflower moving service.

I suppose if i'm in DT's shoes that i would want a bunch of veterans to help with job security. But...what's that expression about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?

This team is multiple pieces away (i.e., a first baseman, a third baseman, a shortstop, a DH). We should trade Tejada and Millar for some young hitters and rebuild or else we are likely doomed for the next 5 years.

I often do agree with you, Tom D, but there's no chance Tori Hunter makes the HOF. He's 32 years old, has 1215 hits, a .271 career average, and 192 HR. He's not worth more than a 4-year deal. This year is probably his career best, and it's not much different than Markakis.

The Orioles need to make thie rline-up a priority. No bull-pen can succeed with a team whose line-up is this bad - none.

Why? Too many high-stress innings. Since the Orioles can't blow anybody out, because they can't score runs, everytime a bull-pen pitcher comes out there the game is, at best, riding on his performance. Bull-pen pitchers need to be able to have outings where they can get knocked around a little and it isn't the end of the world. It's good for their confidence, and good for their arms, too.

Improve the line-up, and then you work on the bull-pen. Doing it the other way is guaranteeing disaster.

The Orioles are long on demands and the FA market is short on supply. They (we) need to suck it up, plan on losing till 2010. The most important thing we need is a blue print. Unfortunately there was none for the last 10 yrs. Trade Tejada and Mora for players on the ML bubble.. Dump Gibby and Payton for whatever you can get. If Bedard doesn't up for us--trade him. Keep your eyes on the Tex prize on 2009. And most importantly--STOP GETTING PLAYERS FROM OTHER LOSING TEAMS SCRAP HEAP. They are discarded for a reason. And please--I hope the scouts have a good first pick in mind for '08.

Dave Trembly's comments are very distressing. Sounds like we are going to invest lots of money on veteran relief pitchers again. That worked out real well last winter, huh? What exactly is the point? Do Trembley and MacPhail think the Orioles are on the verge of competitiveness? If they do, then clearly they are the wrong men for the job of rebuilding the Orioles. All I am hearing is more of the same old philosophy that has gotten the Orioles 10 years of losing so far.

2008 should be a season long tryout for our top prospects - Nolan Reimold in LF, Luis Jimenez at 1B, Jim Hoey, Radhames Liz, Jon Leicester, etc. in the bullpen. Don't waste money and roster spots on veteran guys!!! Trade (or release) anyone on the current roster who is unlikely to contribute from 2010-2014 for prospects who can reach the bigs by then. Once the Orioles are only a couple pieces away from contention, then is the time to add a couple of veteran free agents to complete the puzzle. Best case scenario this will be following the 2009 season. How hard is this to understand?! After ten years of doing the same thing over and over again and having it continually blow up in their faces, do they think this winter will somehow be different? What little hope I had for a brighter Orioles future is diminishing with every passing remark by Trembley and MacPhail.

Fact: CWS are ready to trade Jon Garland and Marlins are willing to listen to offers for Dontrelle.
Scenario 1: Chicago wanted Miguel, so lets see if they would take him, for Garland.
Scenario 2: Marlins are looking for young pitching and catching. So offer Cabrera and Hernandez, and see if they might want Gibbons, Payton, or Huff, as a throw-in.
Even if you don't get both of them, try to pull the trigger on 1 of those deals, and then place eithere of them into the #2 slot behind Bedard and ahead of Guthrie. Heck of a 1-2-3 pitching staff, and then you can add Loewen and Burres, or maybe keep Benson, at a redeuced rate, and use Burres as a reliever.
We can always find a catcher in free agency to give us a year, until Wieters is ready. And Hernandez would provide solid defense, better than Tejada, right now.
And that could give us a start in building a team around the idea of Pitching and Defense.
As far as Patterson: Offer him a 2 or 3 year deal, but don't give him 20 million. He compliments Roberts, when he is in the lineup, and look how the team played when he was following B-Rob in the line-up.

Hey Roch,
Was this Jay Payton's best night as an Oriole? OY!
'i' is for Irrational hopes for the future

Will the O's get any insurance money for the season (& for some contract) ending injuries this year and next?

I'm thinking of Loewen, Wright, Baez & Ray to determine if eating salary on Gibbons, Payton and others would be as feasible as it seems to be desirable.

Hayek (is that Friedrich or Selma?), has got it right. This team is going nowhere, and never will until it is blown up and started over, Marlins style.

Everyone of any value, except Markakis, should be traded for the best prospects they can bring back in return. Yes, I said EVERYBODY, that means BRob, Tejada, Hernandez, even Bedard. Go ahead, offer Bedard 5 for 75, and when he rejects it, trade him.

As it is, this team is hopeless. All money spent for the next 2 years should go into the scouting and minor league system, not a nickel should be spent on any free agents.

Going back to my post of a year ago, hire the best coaches and scouts available to instruct kids and find talent. Let the major league team lose 100 games for 2 or 3 years.

Do this, and you can build a perennial contender. Ignore this advice, and wallow in 4th place forever.

HEY ROCH, TONIGHT AFTER THE GAME WHEN ALL 6500 FANS WENT HOME THE SIGN BEHIND HOMEPLATE WAS CHANGED TO THANKS YANKEE AND RED SOX FANS

Nice to see Jeremy Guthrie have a very solid outing, one that's better than the line score suggests. It was nice to see him pitch out of trouble after Dave Trembley came out.

Andy MacPhail is describing the free agent market as "thin," so that means there should be some dealing going on this offseason. It's time to see the Orioles come out on top in some trades for a change.

Letting go of Cory Patterson would be a huge mistake, in my opinion. After getting rid of outfielders like Gary Matthews Jr. and Eric Byrnes (who, for the record, before he resigned with Arizona was quoted as saying he wouldn't mind returning to the O's), only to see them blossom into quality players elsewhere, the last thing the Orioles should do is let that happen again. And whatever criticisms people may have of C-Pat, the one thing no one can honestly deny is that he has considerable potential. Wouldn't it be nice to see a talent develop in Baltimore for a change?

giving away draft picks again for the bullpen would be so stupid. we are so scared to finish last we are stuck finishing 4th........

Hayek, John Galt, and Danny hit home runs with their posts. Isn't it obvious that the Orioles won't compete before 2010?

I wouldn't rush the young players, but I'd certainly spend money on better talent scouts, facilities, and training rather than on expensive stopgap free agents who cost draft picks and wouldn't be nearly enough to put the Orioles within shouting range of the playoff race.

Signing a 30 year old for his range in center field is like eating a bag of M&M's to lose weight. Neither Torii Hunter nor Aaron Rowand is the answer.

Center field defense is very important, though, so retaining Patterson makes sense. But giving him anything more than 4 years at $5 million per year is senseless.

A bullpen is only as good as the number of innings it throws. The most overused bullpens tend to have the worst era's. Our starting pitching was the problem. Too many injuries and leaving after 5 or 6 innings. That's why the yankees bullpen was in such bad shape the first half of the season. It got better when the starters got back on track and the same will happen for us. One quality starter added to bedard, guthrie, lowen and whoever wins the 5th spot will work wonders. Then add a big bat.

DS. You had it half right about Payton-he his best game offensively but he probably cost the O's at least 2 runs with his shoddy defense. He clearly misjudged the first flyball and turned it into a generously scored double, igniting a 3 run inning. He then proceeded to drop a flyball and likely had a shot at the runner coming home if he caught it because everyone runs on his weak arm. This raises the valid question-Do the O's have the guts to sever ties with this guy? That would be the first step towards credibility. We O's fans shouldn't have to suffer through another year of his terrible, unispiring play and it's not like he's indispenable!
Ken Francis...I agree with you about Patterson. What's wrong with some speed and defense in centrefield? He can hit .270-.280, steal 40-50 bags and combined with Roberts, can cause some havoc at the top of the order. I realize the outfield is missing a power bat so why not go after Adam Dunn? I know he K's alot but man-40 HRs every year could kick start our offense.
A lot of you are pushing for Rowand but he may be a one year wonder, Hunter isn't likely to be lured here and Jones looks to be seriously declining. If Jones is in the O's lineup, he'll be the second coming of JD Drew. I say offer Dunn 3-4 years at 10-12 mill per.

Terry P - Dunn is not a free agent unless the Cincinnati Reds don't pick up his $13m option (they will).

Geoff - Not bad, though I think getting Garland from Chicago is much more plausible than getting Willis from the Marlins. I personally would go a different route, trading Tejada to th Reds (if they'll take him) for any combination of Jay Bruce (stud young OF), Homer Bailey(top prospect at SP), and Joey Votto (young power hitting 1B). If you could get 2 of those guys, MacPhail should be exec of the year.

I think the Orioles will go hard after Francisco Cordero and Scott Linebrink. I'm not as sold on Linebrink, but Cordero has been a pretty solid closer, and would definitely give the bullpen a presence at the end of games. Linebrink is the best free agent setup guy out there, and the free agent reliever group is not very deep. We'd be better off trading Jay Payton for a solid reliever (now there's an idea!).

C-Pat
Not a prospect
Less than a .300 career OBP
Declining power numbers
Avg. 40-50 RBI
Nice speed
Average baserunner despite speed (I include decision-making here)
For a center fielder--average defense

Bottom-line is that on a contending team, he comes off the bench as a SB threat and a defensive replacement for the slower more powerful outfielder who produces consistently.

Could we do worse--absolutely. Do I appreciate Corey's effort and attitude--yup.

Anthony-- you mention that old "injury" word again. I think the second part of what you said was more accurate that our 5-6 inning starters wore down the bullpen. The pitchers who were injured were mostly 5-6 inning guys (particularly Wright and Loewen). Plus, the issue is complicated by the fact that the horribly ineffective bullpen led to their own overuse. By not getting anyone out, they kept forcing Perlozzo's hand. The starters overachieved in the first half. Let's not forget that. With excellent starting pitching we were a sub-.500 team. With better bullpen pitching and excellent starting pitching and mediocre hitting we approach .500.

And like eveyone is pointing out now, the FO still doesn't want to bite the bullet and rebuild.

Ok may I suggest something ? One resign Patterson thats a must. Two I've said it before sign Aaron Rowan from the Phillies .302 26 82 from Left field would be nice and lets be honest of course you are going to have to over pay no other way to repair 10 yrs of losing. Tike is no.4 outfielder . Trade Tejada plug in Hernandez. Rotation should be Bedard, Guthrie, Loewen, Benson, and I hate to say this Cabera. Leichester and Burres 6&7 inning guys. Penn and Olson need to be in the bullpen to learn how to pitch at this level they really have nothing to prove at the AAA level. Hoey should pitch the 8th . Most importantly the Orioles must get some type of better instruction in the minors to teach better mechanics to these young pitchers there is absolutely no excuse for a 24-25 year old pitcher to practically run to first base and the ball practically ends up in the stands instead of landing and following thru correctly (Bedard & Guthrie). The Orioles need to set the market prices this year and be aggressive early don't wait and let the market set the price, for crying outloud can't they get this right just once !!!!!!!!!!!