Roch - I'm with you. Liz should be put in the pen for now. The Yanks are doing it with one of their prized starters -- Joba Chamberlain -- and Boston did it with Papelbon....I'm not saying Liz is on par with either of those guys at this point and the Os are not in the middle of a pennant race, but the object is still to win games, no? This constant losing, by softball scores, will surely turn off potential free agents...

Roch,

Just go ahead and take the rest of the year off. Nobody cares anymore about this pathetic team. Who's the #1 overall prospect for 2008 so we can starting "looking ahead to next year".

When it was announced last week that our interim manager had been promoted and was now hired for 2008, I must admit I was seriously conflicted. On the one hand it was very obvious that new policies had been implemented that improved the teams focus and they were playing far better baseball, but it was also hard for me to watch one blown call after another as the manager sat quietly in the dugout apparently oblivious to the disadvantages that his team was being unfairly forced to deal with. A manager that does not stand up and fight for his team will eventually lose their best effort and I firmly believe we are watching the results on the field that are a result of a perceived lack of intensity emanating from the dugout.

I'm not sure putting Liz in the pen is worth anything right now. You're not in a pennant race. Call up Doyne when rosters expand and just make due for the rest of the season. I'd rather find out what we have with Liz and Olson as potential starters for next year than use them out of the bullpen. If we wind up with 6 or 7 starters next year, absolutely let them be relievers, particularly Liz, who could be a great closer. For now, if you think they have the chance to be starters long term you let them start.

Roch: I just commented in a post to your previous blog how I think closing probably isn't the right thing for Liz at the moment and that getting the experience of starting would probably be more valuable.

Having read this one, I'm going to stick by my guns regarding not using him as a closer, though for a different reason.

You brought up the point about Olson coming back soon, so he should go back to his spot in the rotation. I agree.

As for Liz, though, right now it's a question of what the O's need most and it seems to me that the answer to that is middle to long relief. It makes no sense to have an electric closer if you can't plug him in, as last night's nightmare luridly demonstrated.

Consider: If the Orioles were prepared to let him throw 80 pitches at the start of a game, why not 80 latter on? Let Baez and Walker continue to handle most of the closes, but maybe let Liz come back out in the ninth for a few. Let's get some W's!

Does anyone know who was taken off the 40 man roster when Liz was called up?...All that was said was James Johnson was sent down to Norfolk. Since Shuey was DFA'ed yesterday its back to 40, but for a few days I think it was 41 on the 40 man....Thanks.

Tom D: Thanks for the Cabrera info. Something’s obviously wrong there. We can hope that someone is working on it, but with the way this club operates, why would anyone assume that?

JPA: I’ll take your valid player development theory with the pitchers and take it a notch further and say it applies to position players as well. How many pitchers/players have come from the minor leagues, get a very limited chance to succeed, and get sent packing once they predictably don’t? Has the club just overhyped a bunch of poor prospects, or is there something going on that’s killing the psychology of players who might very well find some big league success if they weren’t in the Orioles system? Really, as you suggested, these guys arrive here and just look completely overmatched, like they have absolutely no business being in professional baseball.

There have been exceptions to this, of course, such as Bedard, Markakis, and Roberts on the current squad. But it’s hard to believe that the Orioles mentally ruining their young players, and not just poor player selection itself (or even the dreaded “bad luck”), isn’t a factor in its poor player development track record, since that poor player development has been going on for a long time. Throughout baseball, there are plenty of late round, after thought draft picks who are successful big leaguers, but that doesn’t ever seem to happen here.

Given the sorry state of the entire Orioles organization how about pitching your editors a proposal to do an in-depth series about the ENTIRE group that is responsible for the annual mess they are passing off as a major-league calber team.

Start at the grass roots level . Who is recommending potential players for signing?

Who is handling and monitoring the progression through the minor leagues?

And above all, for Pete's sake, exactly who is recommending the free-agents they are signing each year and the reasoning behind each signing?

I ask this as it is now blatantly apparent that whoever these chaps (a perhaps a lady or two?) are, they are abysmal failures and are really deserving of pink slips.

Parent club sucks!

No help available from the upper-level farm teams!

No real hope of much even down the road a year or two!

If they aren't candidates for firing, then by all means promote the bunch!

BUT DO SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!

I think the last thing the O's should be worried about is potential free agents, mostly because outside of Arod, there isn't one or two on the market that can drastically improve any team, much less the O's... bring up Olson, keep Liz in the rotation, lets see if they both can get better over September... Traschel has been good but what is the point of having him if he isn't in next year's plan... 2008 started after the trade deadline...

Man, the bullpen is really screwing the pooch lately. Its a wonder some of them haven't been arrested for arson with all the fires they keep starting. My opinion is that a lot of the pitchers don't have enough of an attitude. You have to have a mean streak if you have average stuff. At least back some of these guys off the plate. The others teams are digging in like they have a backhoe. Try Liz. He can't do any worse than Larry, Moe, and Curly.

Tom D-- great post on Cabrera. We may be the one organization that has pitchers go DOWN in the number of pitches in their arsenal. Looks like signing a coach isn't better than signing the talent!
CRB--I completely agree with the position player angle as well.

Do you think these guys would be as nervous if the staff told them, "Get your feet wet kid. You have two months to feel your way around the big leagues. We'll give you daily feed back and try to help your adjustment to the highest level of baseball in the world. We have tons of faith that you'll work it out, but remember that most guys (including HOFer Cal Ripken) take some time to put it together. When you struggle, we have your back. Have some fun and show some intensity. Welcome to Baltimore."

Nope, after one bad performance, it's back to Norfolk or banishment to the bench for 3 weeks.

We can't have it both ways folks. It's time to lose with the baby Birds. That's the problem with this club--they have never made a dedicated movement in any one direction. Even now the management wants to maintain the illusion as it has for the last decade that we are only a year or two away (with the addition of a crusty veteran or two). By the time we get there the players who are good now will be gone or too old to be solid contributers. Ahhh... those planning and critical thinking skills eluding us again. But at least we have a sweet cable deal. We're rich, b*&#@.

OK, now I understand Birkins getting called up - Olson is going to be recalled and the Yo-Yo Du Jour, Birkins, is boarding a Southwest to Norfolk.

Even though it is a short hop I bet he has enough miles to take his family to Australia.

I would not use Liz as a closer - too many walks - but a setup man would work.

Look at the Yankees with Chamberlain. He is not in their plans to stay in relief but he is the tonic their bullpen needed.

But Joba Chamberlain also has always had control.

If the O's have anyone at any level who throws over 95+ and does not walk batters I would consider him a candidate for the pen - well, except Guthrie.

With the sad state of affairs of our pitching staff, I think it's premature to say that Trachsel doesn't fit into our plans for '08. He's been a decent pitcher this year and what's wrong with having a veteran around that can give up 5-6 innings? If the young starters all establish themselves, why not keep him as a long reliever or an extra starter in case of injury/ineffectiveness etc?
As far as Liz, I'd keep him away from the closer/setup role for now. He's projected as an eventual starter so what's to lose by keeping him there, or perhaps middle relief?
It's a pretty sad state of affairs when we have to use young pitchers out of their projected roles. If Hoey is going to relieve then keep sending him out there. As far as the 'nervousness' factor, it's better to deal with it now and a solution is to keep him away from close games.
Things are likely going to stay pretty ugly from here on in, but there's no point in sacrificing the future for the sake of a couple of extra wins. We can only hope that the starters can pitch deeper into games and then bring in the few reliables(Walker & Bradford) to finish.

mpg62 - the O's had an open spot on their 40 man that Liz filled.

McFail likes to keep the roster at 39 in case.

Since Shuey was DFA, once his time in purgatory (10 days, I think) is up they will be back to 39.

So I see that the Yankees recalled our old buddy Chris Britton. I've never been a Yankees fan, but I liked Britton when he was pitching with us last year so I kinda like to see him do pitch well against the Red Sox.

Tom,

I'm going to agree and say great article. But i must ask WHAT FREAKING ARTICLE IS EVERYONE TALKING ABOUT. Tom D did not post a reply to this entry. You would make more sense to thank him in the actual post he replied to.

Mark - Great article man.......you NAILED it with your comments.

other than ripken, markakis and roberts in the field and mussina and bedard on the mound have the orioles developed any other good players in the last 25 years. get rid of any scout who has been with the team longer than 4 years. overpay for scouts who now work for the marlins, devil rays, twins and oakland. find good instructors who can develop talent. get rid of flanagan. with macphail here there is no need for a former pitcher with no previous upper management experience. put him to work as an instructor in the minors and/or during spring training. start conditioning starters to pitch every 4th day. stop using relief pitchers for one inning or one batter. if a guy is pitching well let him go another inning or two. this tony larrusso style of handling pitchers doesn't work for many teams. think back..flanagan would piTch and if he didn't do well sammy stewart would come in and pitch 3-4 innings and then someone would close. why use 5 average to below average journeyman pitchers when their total value is worth about 2 baseballs and a rosin bag. there are too few good pitchers around to begin with. get rid of these 5.00 era pitchers and let the young pitchers learn in the bullpen. they can't do any worse. bring brooks, palmer, frank robby, eddie and other retired ex birds to spring training. let them work one on one with some young players. don't give up on cabrera. he has no baseball background as a kid. he has little minor league experience. was rushed to the majors. has played for about 5 different managers and pitching coaches and he has never pitched for a team that has been any kind of a winner. and at 6'9" he needs time to get his mechanics corrected. of course if the little man would sell the team to ripken we'd see a far better run operation.

I am not sure that the O's issue is really that the "parent club sucks."

Lost in all of this chaos is that the team has been pretty effective scoring runs of late and the starters have kept the team in the game.

The issue is now as it has been almost all season: the bullpen.

Of course, to compete there will need to be a number of improvements, but the millstone dragging the team down is the bullpen.

"ripken, markakis and roberts in the field and mussina and bedard on the mound"

Add Steve Finley, Segui and Harnisch and I think that covers it.

Paul Shuey - Hey man, I know you are still dealing with the emotional let down of the DFA, but stop a moment and take a breath.

I realize you have been involved with figuring out how to pitch in the bigs with 1 hip and have probably not had time to go on-line, so its cool. But you need to know blogging pretty fluid.

Whenever the spirits move and Roch gets an inspiration he puts it down. Each time he does that the topic changes.

If you want to keep up with the crowd you have to post to the latest topic.

And we all want to keep up with the crowd.

Only those of us vain enough to want to see what someone may have said to our posts goes back to look. I mean, not that I do that or anything....

If the pace is too fast go back to the clubhouse and grab some of the coffee marked "high octane." That might help.

Oh and please, please, please sign with the Yankees!!!!! We would love you if you would!

Thanks.

I can't wait to see our future 1st baseman next week. And it's about time. Don't let me down Flanney. Luis Jimenez is the guy. I was told by a friend in the warehouse that Nick gets stopped at air ports more then any Oriole. So maby he looks a little like a Saudi, you can never be to sure. If we lose again tonight I'm sending my oldest daughter to be a missionary in India.

Robert--I like your thinking. It seems like the minority owners are all too willing to bring in the profits and let Angelos take the lion's share of the blame. I can't believe that none of the minority owners has ever spoken up about this nightmare of a FO. The group is hard to get tabs on but I'm pretty sure they include Tom Clancy, Stephen A. Geppi, Barry Levinson, Jim McKay, and Pam Shriver... I guess the term "silent owners" is applicable.

While it in no way compares to other organizations, such as the Twins or A's, the Orioles aren't quite as dismal in producing major leaguers as freddy callens states. Without any research I can think of several in the last 20 years or so: Arthur Rhodes, Steve Finley, David Sequi, Estaban Yan, Armando Benitez, David Dellucci and John Maine. While none of them are Hall-of-Famers, they all are/were proven major leaguers that came from the Orioles system.

Difference between Os fans and Yankees fans: Yankees fans want to kill Mussina because he's been performing horribly. Os fans are sympathetic, sad and still sorry that he left us. Or that we forced him out. Well, that PGA forced him out.

I would like nothing more than for Mussina to be released, sign for a day with the Orioles and retire as an Oriole. It would not cure my disenchantment, but like the Wieters signing, it would help. A little bit.

"Seriously, what are their options now?"

Make Walker the closer and Bradford the primary set up man. Instead of having these guys come in tough situations, have them start the inning. Walker does fine against righties. He'll done fine in the closer role. Bradford is weak against lefties. If there's a tough lefty in the inning, then use Burres as a LOOGY. Move Baez and Hoey to the 7th inning. If Bradford needs a rest, then use Baez or Hoey in the 8th. Hoey is really nervous right now. The 7th inning should be a little less pressure for him.

After the 8th inning last night, conversation in the stands turned to whether this would be the wake-up call for the organization. The sad thing is that the consensus was that nothing would change. I don't mean to bang on Trembly, but I didn't understand the hiring when it occurred. They keep changing managers, but maintaining all of the coaches. This team has a culture of losing. It is time for drastic action. At this point, they need to fire every coach associated with the team. They need to change everything. I would even look at a uniform change.

I don't know if I want to renew for next year and I am a die-hard fan. I need to see something bigger than hiring another career minor league manager that the players like. How are they ever going to lure free agents to this mess.

Nothing will change until everything changes.

Wait a minute - 25 years ago is 1982!!!!!!!

Are you guys just too young to know or have you lost your freaking minds??????

Try these names (* means still active):
Larry Bigbie*, Gregg Olson, Billy Ripken, Larry Sheets, John T-Bone Shelby, Jim Traber. Mike Young, Joe Borowski*, Mike Boddiker, Storm Davis, Ken Dixon, John Haybyan, Chris Hoiles, Jose Mesa*, Ricky Gutierrez, David Delucci*, Jerry Hairston*, Jeff Hammonds*, Willie Harris*, Alan Mills, Arthur Rhodes, Chad Paronto*, Greg Zauhn*, Joe Kerrigan*, Jorge Julio*, Josh Towers*, John Maine*, Esteban Yan*, Luis Matos*, even Ben McDonald.

That is without looking them up. Julio may have been a Rule V pick and so may have Mills, but the rest of them came up in the Baltimore system. There is also Geronimo Gil*, who just got sent down by Colorado.

If you think a "good baseball player" is a potential HOF candidate you really do not know baseball. When the average career is 4 years, anyone who has been able to sustain a career that long or longer is a "good player."

Most organizations do not develop Great Players or develop only 1 or 2 a decade. The Orioles are ahead of most organizations.

I understand that some people are too young to know what happened over the last 25 years and that some have only lived during the recent 10 year Reign of Error Angelos has wrought upon us.

But don't go passing judgment when you don't have any information.

And it is not that hard to get good information.

If you are 30 are over and you are this clueless about the team history you really ought to be embarrassed.

If the Orioles want to contend next year, then they should go after A-Rod. I don't like him but I love his numbers and the Orioles need some numbers like that. Offer him $184 million for 8 years and increase that if necessary. The dollar isn't worth what it used to be, but like most of you, I know there's about a zero percent chance of the Orioles doing something dynamic like that.

Now, I want to see some brown paper bags at the game tonight and for the rest of the season. Where them over your heads with a true lack of pride in your hometown team! Angelos Must Go signs are also welcome. Will the Seat-Nazis kick you out for that?

COMMENT ON JIM P'S COMMENT.

I SHOULD HAVE BEEN MORE CLEAR. DEVELOPING PLAYERS THAT PLAYED FOR THE MOST PART AS ORIOLES. THAT SAID. ARTHUR RHODES HAS HAD A MEDIOCRE CAREER. STEVE FINLEY HAD A REAL GOOD CAREER. DAVID SEQUI HAD ONE TERRIFIC SEASON (THANKS STEROIDS) THAN BROKE DOWN AS SON AS WE GAVE HIM MILLIONS. ESTABAN YAN..PLEASE. HE COULDN'T MAKE THIS ORIOLE PITCHING STAFF AND ANYONE WITH A PULSE CAN MAKE THIS MAKE THIS BULLPEN. BENITEZ HAS BEEN A DISAPPOINTMENT EVERYPLACE HE'S BEEN, DELLUCCI FOR ALMOST HIS ENTIRE CAREER HAS BEEN A RESERVE AND JOHN MAINE UP UNTIL HIS LAST COUPLE STARTS HAS PITCHED WELL FOR THE METS. SURPRISED YOU DIDN'T MENTION JAYSON WIRTH AND JERRY HAIRSTON

I love the O's, have for 30 years. With that said....keep Jaime Walker, let go the rest of the 'pen, all of them.

Red Sox: Kevin Youklis, Jonathan Papelbon, Dustin Pedrioa

Angels: K-Rod, Garrett Anderson

Indians: Fausto Carmona, Victor Martinez, Jhonny Peralta

Mets: David Wright, Jose Reyes

Mariners: Raul Ibanez, JJ Putz

Yanks: Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, Robinson Cano

Padres: Trevor Hoffman, Chris Young, Jake Peavy, Khalil Greene

D-Backs: Brandon Webb, Justin Upton, Stephen Drew

Brewers: Ben Sheets, Prince Fielder

These are big-name players on most of the contending teams right now. All of them were brought up through that team's farm system and are still playing for that team. Considering the O's players below, the O's scouting and player development offices aren't doing a shabby job.

O's: Erik Bedard, Brian Roberts, Nick Markakis, Daniel Cabrera

It's the free-agent signings that have made all the difference and the O's just won't spend the money on the sure-thing players out there. They make bad decisions on the borderline players that agree to come here ($42 mil bullpen) and as a result, fail to contend year after year. When will that finally change?

Wow, great analysis RBF.