10 wins would be GREAT for the O's and for Penn. I will take 10 wins from a 5th starter anyday! I'm hoping he can do it bcuz I will real disappointed when he got called up and then got sick before he could start.

Give Penn a chance to win a job in spring training. Then if necessary, carry him on the O's roster until a trade can be made for him if he doesn't pan out. I do not think he will pass waivers. BTW, how is he doing in winter ball?

Like everyone else,Iam not sure about Hayden Penn. I think this time around we need to find out.Make him the fifth starter and set back,it's time we find out.Let him sink or swim.can he do it  we need to find out.Hayden Penn has the stuff,the question is can he master it.

I think you're spot on. Even though the walks and HR's are of concern, there's no denying the stuff is there and he will be a very useful #5 starter. If he starts from ST to work his way into the rotation, it'll work I think. When I see Penn I see another John Maine, who we gave up too soon.

Boy, has the kid been through alot! Maybe all this adversity has toughened him up. If so, he could very well be the #5. I would like to see him make it and then win 8 games.

Let's be realistic here...Penn is 23 years old with good stuff. If you try to send him to the minors again, another team will gladly claim him. With the lack of pitching in the organization, the Orioles are FORCED to allow the kid to make the team this year. Since we have Guthrie as our only guaranteed starter right now, slot the kid in as the #5 starter and let him learn / adjust at the major league level. Since we have no expectations for Penn, he might just surprise us. If he shows ANYTHING, it's a bonus to the 2009 team and gives him (and us)confidence going into 2010. If he flops, he becomes trade bait for a more patient team.

He'll never amount to anything - with the Orioles or anyone else...see Matt Riley, Richard Stahl, Mike Paradis, Chris Smith, Beau Hale, etc.

Incidentally, you stated "I doubt anyone will be as optimistic as me". Well, I'm sure you have to put on the skirt & wave the pom poms in order to keep your job, but continually demonstrating blind homerism - aka Jim Hunter - does you no credit.

i think that penn will finally realize his potential in 2009. he will make the jump from minor league dl to major league dl.
he will have that opportunity due to the fact that he is out of minor league options and the orioles are not going to take any chance of losing him without making a thorough evaluation of his worth to the team. or to some other team, for that matter.
i don't think that they can outright him to norfolk. if someone is willing to take a chance on cabrera, someone will be willing to take a chance on penn.
i think that we are about to see the frustration of another pitcher being brought up too soon.

Jubal Early nailed it. Penn is just another in the never ending series of Oriole dud pitching prospects.

you'd hope that penn has matured somewhat over the last couple of yrs and there is no reason if he pitches well in spring training for him not to start the season in the rotation. it's not like the orioles have that many established pitchers ready to go this yr. guthrie, penn, albers, waters ( i think that's the guy..lefthander threw a great game against the angels and had one other really great start) and maybe one of the bowie pitchers could be the starting rotation. liz could be there. i can't see olson or burris starting again.

so the scenarios for Penn are:

a. minors, if nobody else is interested in him

b. majors.

umm. not really an option there. why have a guy go through years in the farm system if you're not going to at least see what he can do?

So, the rotation is Guthire, Penn, Olsen, Hendrickson, Liz?

I saw Penn pitch a interleague game in Pittsburgh in 2006. He went 6? solid innings, loaded the bases after running out of gas, Mazelli left him in the game against a left-handed hitter (Ward) who promptly pulled a fastball over the left field wall. It has been downhill since that time with injuries, etc. I agree, make him the 5th starter and let him sink or swim. In that game my favorite catcher Sal Fasano had two home runs and missed a third by a few feet.

If I'm in charge of the Orioles, then I release Mr Hendrickson right away, and give that spot to Penn and see what he can do with that opportunity.

My prediction on Hayden Penn's season is that he will get to Spring Training, trip on a pebble, tear a ligament in his knee and be done for another season. In all reality though, he will probably make it as the fifth starter and struggle because we don't and won't have a proven veteran on the team besides Guthrie, and he isn't really a veteran.

At this point without any other FA signings hate do we have to lose with having Penn as the #5 starter. IF healthy????? he would be a valuable member of the rotation. Living in Norfolk and going to a lot of tides game he did start to turn the corner a bit last year but the freak bat injury did set him back once again.

Hey Pete, why did your article take 9 paragraphs to finally get to your subject of Hayden Penn?

Gee, Why not just leave him in the minors, therefore bypassing the whole waivers thing??

Boy, maybe he can learn to pitch over 100 innings so that he may one day contribute to a major league team.

Yes, I'm sure I've heard it somewhere before. "Develope players in the minor leagues"...

Yes that makes sense to me. But for happy losers like the Baltimore Angleoses, starting 20-year old pitchers is the answer.

Why don't we curtail any Orioles Reports until September?

What's it gonna hurt to give him a shot IF he's healthy? Unless you're gonna include him in a trade, roll the dice and see what he can do.

Carry Penn as long relief through April when you only need four starters, then May 1 hand him the ball. If he is atrocious, he can mop up until his release or designation for assignment. A pitcher named Boddicker had a similar injury history and he did well once he was healthy and got his shot.

Trembley doesn't like Penn. It was apparent last year in Spring Training. Trembley will not give him a chance to succeed. Speaking of Trembley, do we have another Brian Billick/Kyle Bohler situation. Is Brian Burris dating Trembley's daughter, if he has one. Burris does not have major league stuff but yet he started last year. Trembley has got to avoid last years spring training when he pitched guys who were going to the minors instead of evaluating the guys who had a chance to stick in the majors. He needs to give a full shot at being a starter to Liz, Olsen, Johnson, Penn, Albers, Patton. He should be able to get three pitchers out of this group and perhaps a long man for the pen.. But he's got to keep an open mind to get the best of the lot. We need to see if any of these guys can compete before we bring up the Triple AAA guys next year. Regards!

Bob Norton

I have two words for Hayden Penn: long relief.
The only reason he ever made it into a major league rotation was that the O's were DESPERATE in 2005. Let's hope that they are not that desperate at the start of 2009. I do hope that he suprises me and blows everyone away in spring training but I will not hold my breath.

Why don't the Os ask that the opposing teams be allowed to hit off a tee? NO WALKS! The best pitchers will give up dingers, they just do it with 0-1 runners on. PLEASE, SOMEONE SEND US PITCHERS WHO THROW THE BALL OVER THE PLATE!

HP #4 in the rotation (probably help him to not be the guy who goes 11 days between starts) goes 8-14 with a 4.45 ERA. And throws enough strikes to keep sending out every 5 days.

I predict no future with the O's for Penn. Let's get real here- is he suddenly going to learn how to throw strikes? Doubtful. Cut the bait with this guy.

To be blunt, I think 10 wins makes Penn the #2 or #3 starter. I really think Guthrie is the 10+ win pitcher and Olsen is 50/50 for 10 wins. The rest of the staff forget it...

pretend that penn is a recent rule 5 draftee and go from there

My hope (not necessarily prediction) is that Penn is gone. I know the O's need bodies in the rotation, but I'm hopeful Penn won't be one of them.

Penn is not unlucky. He is jinxed. Somebody, somewhere, sometime put a curse on that man. Harpooned by a broken bat! Send to Pa Dutch country for some Hex signs they hang on their barns. Put one around Penn's neck, another in his locker, two in the shower, another at the bat rack, and definitely another in the knife drawer in his kitchen.
He should start the season in the long relief role like Albers in 2008. As time goes by he may move into the rotation.

maybe 3rd time's a charm....go get 'em Penny! Long relief is always an option, too......would love to see Liz win a slot, too.

Penn will definitely not pass through waivers. He has to go on the 25-man roster or they will lose him.

He should get at least half a season with the Orioles. If he doesn't have a great spring, then long relief/swingman, but he needs innings to show whether the talent was still there. Until recently there was a LOT, and that's why he rates this chance.

He definitely has the potential to be a solid MLB starter. If he doesn't do it with the O's, it may well happen with somebody else.

I hated the Hendrickson signing in part because he goes into competition with Penn. There are only so many spots on the pitching staff, and the O's have now made a $1.5 million commitment to Hendrickson, which pretty much guarantees him a roster slot.

What a horrible move for a supposedly rebuilding team.

I think if it is a choice between having Penn on the major league roster or losing him to another team, I think he has to be on the roster. My prediction: Penn starts out 2-2 but finishes the year at 13-5.

I saw Penn pitch one game for Norfolk here in Louisville. He looked like two different people over the course of the game. One minute he was bouncing the ball to the plate. The next minute the Louisville batters were so overwhelmed they couldn't even foul off a pitch. He hit at least 97 on the stadium radar gun (highest I've ever seen aside from Bob McCrory). Strangely...he pitched best LATE in the game.

Hi Dan,

Daniel Cabrera is not a good example. In fact he is far from a good example, he is not a control pitcher and no amount of time in the minors could have fixed that. For every Cabrera I can pull ten names that succeeded at young ages.

Penn is a little different. If he is healthy and throws well in the spring he should get a shot unless the Orioles sign a few pitchers. However he does not impress me much, but who knows he cannot be much worse than what we had. The free swingers of the minor leagues do not uncover the weakness of a pitcher that has control issues. So last year his stats might have been a little better on control but you should expect that. I do not expect much so time will tell.

I watched Penn in Norfolk last season. He doesn't have the fastball that he had a few years ago. He was learning how to pitch...becoming more of a finesse pitcher. I don't think he has the control to be a major league starter, yet...but who knows, he may surprise me. In the mean time, I'd rather see Chris Waters in the rotation.

I think he will be a long reliever/spot starter similar to Hendrickson. If he stays healthy he will be made a starter. The best route might be to make him a reliever like we did with Jim Johnson. It would put less strain on his arm.Season stats (starter)5-3 with a 4.39ERA(reliever)2-2 with a 3.14ERA

I would keep Penn and put him on the active roster. For the most part his injuries have been non-pitching related and shouldn't hold back his further development. Penn has more potential then some of the other pitchers we sent out at the end of last year.
I wont go as high as 10 wins but he will have a good season. First out of the bullpen then into the rotation.
Surprise pick going into 2010 he is the #2 behind Guthrie.

I still have yet to hear one scout say that Penn has a great fastball, a great curve ball, or a great out pitch. He still walks to many people and gives up to many home runs. So why are we suddendly agreeing that he is the man for the 5th spot in the rotation? I hope he makes it and does win 10 games, but I wouldn't get your hopes up. That would be a real long shot.

After an incredible spring, Penn is named the opening day starter, but he is struck by lightning while walking to the mound in the top of the first.

let the young kids go for it. if we can't sign a quality pitcher don't sign a has been or a never was. deecent pitcher with the ability to eat up innings. just a thought on d.cabera. i watched him throw that one hitter against the evil empire. his slider or curve in that game came in literally fell off the table. next year after malzone that pitch had no movement all. just my opinion. they tinkered with him to much!!! his out pitch was gone.

This year may not be as bad as we think. Guthrie will continue to do OK as our #1 starter. Assuming Patton recovers, he might be the big surprise. And I like the analogy with John Maine for Penn; let's not give up on this guy too soon. By the way, what is the story with Sarfate? I haven't heard a word about him. He started the year like gangbusters then really crapped out. But apparently he was hurt... Any word?

Penn had an off year in 08. But overall, he has dominated in the minor leagues. I think it would be best to introduce him to the majors as a middle-reliever. He won't get any better in the minors anyway. Give him more experience pitching to major leaguers.

CycleBill: How does a left-handed hitter pull a fastball over the left field wall? I'd pay to see somebody do that. Think about it.

The more he pitches in the majors the worse he gets. Another bust like Riley, Stahl etc etc.

If Matt Albers doesn't have a sound labrum then Hayden Penn could be a member of the starting rotation on opening day.

I'm amazed at the number of people responding to this post! Here I am, thinking -- or hoping -- that baseball would just go away.

It's January 6, 2009, and there are 12 teams in MLB who have NO shot at just making the playoffs: Baltimore, Toronto, Washington, Cleveland, KC, Cincy, Pittsburgh, San Diego, San Francisco, Colorado, Seattle and Texas.

That's a terrible commentary on a sport.

First, thanks, Dean, for all the updates. I don't think a hundred years in the minors would have helped Cabrera. As J. Palmer pointed out, the kid's just not athletic. As for Penn, I side with those who want him in long relief (with this team he should get lots of innings) and spot starter. If he proves he's no good, no one should take him on waivers; and we can send him down.

I say put him in the big leagues. What does the team have to lose? They just signed a perennial losing pitcher with an era over 5 runs a game and a 34 japanesse pitcher who played part of last season in the minors in Japan.

I think it is pretty obvious Penn deserves a shot with that sort of competition.

The best way to bring a young pitcher along when he's already in the majors is to bull pen him. Look how well Johnson is doing. Use him there, because we can always use a young arm in the pen; he wont have the pressure or the stress of seeing players 3 or more times; and most important...the time he gets there gives him a better chance to gain confidence as well as experience.

We stick him in the long relief role until something pops up in the rotation. The last several seasons something has popped up every season within the first few months. We did something like that with JJ and he carved a role out for himself in the 8th.

We haven't finished a season with the same (or similar) rotation we started with on Opening Day in eons, so having as much depth as possible, and planning for it makes sense. We cannot afford to let any kind of pitching leave this organization for cheap (Cabrera was the exception).

I think Penn should either be given a legitimate shot to earn a roster spot this year or traded in a package deal that may get the Orioles some prospects that are a year away from contributing. If they give him a shot in spring training and he performs well, he should be in the rotation. If he is merely average, then he should be put in the bullpen--of course, depending on what other pitchers do. If he performs poorly, then they probably should release him. At 23, he may be able to return to the dominating pitcher he once was at Ottawa in 2006, but he may also be just one of those guys that do not have the makeup to be a major league pitcher. If he isn't cutting it in spring training, then let some other team try to develop him.

Oh, I forgot. Please look at Daniel Cabrera's minor league numbers and ask yourself why he was "rushed to the majors." His numbers weren't that good. So, why was he pitching in the majors? I think it had to do with the fact that he could hit 100 mph on the radar gun. These so called baseball "evaluators" that the Orioles had working for them the past 10 years (not the current crew led by McPhail) were enamored with how fast a guy could pitch and how good he looked in the uniform, rather than actually doing an honest, objective analysis of whether a player has true baseball talent. Bringing Cabrera up early didn't ruin him. Cabrera wasn't good in the minors and he wasn't good in the majors. He shouldn't have been brought up at all! If Billy Beane had been here, he would have traded him very early on to other teams who value guys who "throw hard" over guys who can pitch.

I agree, if Penn stays healthy, he will be with the Birds . He will not sneak past 29 teams. 2 or 3 years ago it would have been hard to think that he would be in this situation. He was healthy for most of 2008, lets hope it holds up and he come start approaching his old potential. He is still young,

If he wins 10 games for the O's he won't be our 5th starter / He will be our ace !!! Don't bet anything you can't afford to lose on Penn winning 10 games. What in the world has he done in the last 5 yrs. to make you think that ?

I'd put Penn in the bullpen in long relief. If he does well, put him in the rotation. If he doesn't waive him.

  I would like to see the O' sign one more starter and have Hayden Penn either be the fifth starter or long relivef It's time to find out if can pitch or not. I know he been hurt alot and had some bad timing ,but it's time to find out about what he can do.                   Thanks !  Curt

Token middle reliever.

Penn is going to be a very good major league pitcher. The O's would be foolish to let him go. He will someday be a star - mark my word!

give him work in spring training...if
he is decent...make him a starter...
if he fails in spring training then let him join the other O's duds. let him
go

Penn is the guy we should have traded to the Mets instead of Maine. That says something about talent evaluation.

Penn is not showing me any improvement. Dont get me wrong. I like the guy. I just dont think he's got what it takes.Let's quit fooling around. I'm tired of being a laughing stock! Release him.

I'm embarrassed by some of the comments here. These are so-called O's fans. Yes, we had some 'busts' but let's face it...it was ridiculous to have considered any of them prospects to begin with; these kids we have now...there's actual talent there!!! Yes, I'm concerned that- apart from Matusz- command remains an organizational issue (something in the water?), but I have faith that in two to three years, we'll have a strong staff...health being the lone caveat. As far as Penn goes...Of course he should be in the rotation!!! Who else are we going to trot out to the mound every five days? Alfredo Simon? Mark Hendrickson?! Chris Waters!!! At least Penn has talent. Why would you dump a legit arm to send some d-bag like Waters to the mound. Kid has two decent big league starts and people think he can pitch in the bigs. I GUARANTEE that if Waters got a season of starts, he'd have an ERA north of 6! He simply lacks talent. I'm sure he's a nice kid, but...c'mon! Until we have someone better...who's ready...keep on throwing the Penn's and Liz's out to the wolves. Sink or swim time! What's the alternative. OK, Liz can get a little more minor league seasoning, but not Penn. There is no reason he shouldn't be in our rotation; no better alternative. Even if it's the better of two evils...at least it's the BETTER. You never know; kid's got a hell of an arm; maybe he just needs a chance.