This should be interesting.

WRT the Red Line, my wish is that the Governor concedes that mistakes were made in the process and that the MTA will proceed with an expanded Alternitive Analysis to include all reasonable alternatives, and eliminate those alternatives that are considered undesirable by the majority of interested parties--that means the City/County residents and transit riders.

Nate Payer
TRAC

This may be nitpicking, but why are these options being called "alternatives," e.g. "Alternative 4C"? They seem to me to be options or choices or, if you want to be specific, routes. There is no apparent preference among the routes, so I don't understand what exactly they are supposed to be an alternative *to*.

Thank you for your indulgence. I will now crawl back into my nerd cave.

Bus, bus, bus. More economical per passenger mile, and enviro friendly.

Run the redline straight across Pratt/Eastern, then down Clinton to Hale's project.

I really should be in charge. :-)

Paul,

I hate to nitpick, but the BRT options were either more expensive or significantly less cost effective per FTA guidelines, at least for the Red Line. So that is definitely not the way to go.

With respect to Nate's comments, I agree completely, but based on the attendees it seems that 4C is the champion to be announced tomorrow.

In any case, I still don't believe surface rail in Canton to be the devil. I'm sure it will work just fine.

The current proposals show the inability of this city to get anything right. Why they would want to run a train down the middle of Boston St baffles me, destroying property value (a major source of city taxes), driving homeowners away from what is now a prime waterfront location in the city, while adding to traffic congestion (traffic lights will have to be reconfigured to allow the trains to stay on schedule). While I realize its not in their policital interests to appear to be appeasing the "well-off" residents of Canton, they should also recognize where the tax dollars are coming from.

I think by now the worst thing that could happen is that nothing is built

I'd like to see the City and State develop a sound long term solution instead of these band-aid plans. We don't need another light rail, we need a real underground transit system similar to D.C. If you don't have the money for it now, save what you have and develop a strategic plan to get the rest. Otherwise you might as well revert back to the street car days of the early 20th century instead of giving the people of Baltimore a 21st century solution.

Yet again Baltimore / State of Maryland will make another bad choice, not allow proper public venting, and further expand the joke of a mass transit system we already have. Why do we have to do every thing half a**ed in this state? If Baltimore had a proper "metro" underground system this town could potentially be stabilized. It could lead to an economic boom to many of the neighborhoods and not to mention make is easier to get around this town. instead we will continue wasting natural resources on busing, wasting time in traffic, and doing nothing. Heck it would be better to complete the original rt. 70 plan then take away a major east west line for another useless "light rail"

Maryland doesn't seem to have enough money to pay for either project, and especially not for both. It looks like we're going to have to find a way - you don't schedule two press conferences at transit stations otherwise... I'm not sure if the No Build is better than 4C if we didn't have to pay for it, but it's certainly better than wasting nearly a billion dollars of Maryland tax payer money on a bad transit system.

While there are better options, I do think Cantonites will find that when 4C is operational, they will have a much better Boston St:

Less automobile traffic (assuming folks detour Boston St. in their commutes)

More tourists and city residents frequenting restaurants and bars (as opposed to people driving through on commutes)

Increased property values (proven near almost every light rail, subway, and streetcar line globally)

More people (like me) who love Canton and would buy there in a heartbeat if there was access to public transit (that is more frequent and better than the #11).

Assuming the above commenter is Marty Taylor--I applaud your involvement in the community even though our views differ on this. See you at a Gilman reunion!

I think most people in Canton aren't opposed to more/better mass transit going through their neighborhood...the issue is with it being above ground. A D.C. style underground metro would be well recieved, running an above ground train through the heart of the most vibrant area of Baltimore city is a poor option based purely on $$, not on the long term benefit.

The Red Line was supposed to be a SUBWAY, now its going to be a compromised light rail line that impedes the flow of traffic and adds to the area's traffic woes and annoys communities. Go figure.

Just like the new I-95/I-695 Spaghetti Bowl being built, this is just one in a long line of Baltimore traffic design FAILURES. That maze of multiple lanes is just a duplication of the failed traffic design of Washington's Mixing Bowl in northern VA.
Do the politicians and traffic planners ever learn ANYTHING?

But what would you expect from O'Malley?

He's screwed up Thornton education, CEG/BGE, the Slots fiasco, and raised taxes.

And what did we get in return? Another bad traffic plan. GEEZ.

If we don't have the money for both projects, then where the hell is all this stimulus money for roads projects going?

Certainly not to a decent plan in Maryland.

Where the hell is Bob "I Told You So" Ehrlich when you need him?

I guess I should have paid more attention a few years ago when the foundations of this project were being discussed. Why was heavy rail eliminated from evaluation? Purely because of cost? I agree with the other poster, if you can't pay for something worth using save your money until you can. Has anyone that thinks light rail makes sense even for free ever ridden the line we have? My grandma can ride her bike faster than it.

And I can already feel the pain from these people in Canton, et.al. Having lived near light rail and bus stations all you hear all day and night is "Thank you for riding the MTA", "Please stand clear of the doors" blasted so semi-deaf people can hear it. Then as the train moves the bell rings continuously. Hello earplugs.

I almost worry Marty and Jed are smoking something funny.

What did light rail do for Howard Street again, other than turn it into practically a ghost town?

Who's frequenting Howard street via light rail again?

ANSWER: Almost NOBODY except people passing THROUGH! HAha!

Pete, the guy who mentioned I-70, said a mouthful.

Finishing that highway actually would have done more for west Baltimore than these other nutty plans will ever do.

Somewhere in my house I have the original Baltimore SUBWAY plan from the 1970s.

It was like 5 SUBWAY lines, only 1 was ever built, unlike in DC, where every SUBWAY proposal got the go ahead.

And yes it includes I-70 being built too.

The only bad thing on that 1970's plan was the idea of running I-95 across Canton and basically the harbor. That would have been a disaster had it occurred, mainly for tourism and the harbor development, just like this Canton light rail plan is. So I hope this plan is ultimately scrapped.

The rest of Baltimore's 1970s Subway plan was an excellent plan. Maybe I should mail it to one of today's idiotic politicians who keep coming up with these "compromise" ridiculous traffic ideas like The Spaghetti Bowl or more light rail that only increase traffic confusion, devalue properties, and fail to serve any of the intended purposes, to reduce traffic congestion.

Every time a new DC subway plan comes out, I'm impressed.

Every time a new Baltimore light rail or stupid interchange idea comes out, I just shake my head.

Yes Jed that's me. I was hoping when I read previous posts that there was another Jed Weeks around - I think you've been lost in the details, and you're basing your ideals on things that will never happen. Traffic will be worse, not better. The crucial issue is that there is no real way to detour Boston Street, and the light rail system proposed has such a low max capacity (approx 1/2 of our current metro's utilization) and speed (MTA estimates average around 20mph, which seems to be based on some unrealistic assumptions) that it cannot be an attractive alternative for commuters. Since it won't reduce vehicle loads, where do you think the cars will detour to? The only other truck route on the east side is US-40, and it's already congested. Should commuters take the tunnel then clog 395 instead?

Tom - Heavy rail has never been on the table. In the DEIS, the MTA evaluated one of TRAC's proposals. They picked the most expensive one, then crippled all the mass transit connections so that ridership was minimized, and double-billed a few things. Even with all that, it was barely more expensive than 4D (the max-tunnel alternative). There are heavy rail alignments proposed that could have more riders than 4C with 1/2 as much tunnel - but they don't connect the developers' dots.

We're trying to put more online about this so people can get the real facts, but in the meantime check out www.baltimoreredlineunderground.org if you want to learn more.

Oh, I forgot to mention something...

Originally, Boston Street was supposed to be TWO LANES WIDER, but they compromised on that too when the street was redone and never even finished it to I-95 as originally planned.

If Boston street had been built as originally planned, light rail on it actually might work, but the way its currently built?

NOPE. Not gonna work.

They need to scrap this mess before it gets too far along.

God I hope we have a new governor before this disaster breaks ground.

The update from Dresser is not encouraging, though I'm not surprised.

My take: O'Malley will select and endorse 4C as the Locally Preferred Alternative (LPA). The FTA (feds) will chew it up and split back a "medium-low" rating, meaning "not recommended" and ask the MTA to address issues: X, Y, and Z (which are the points TRAC has called them on for 6 years). The current incarnation of the Red Line will sit and then be reborn later as project more akin to real transit that we everyone can work with. By this point, having given up on the Red Line, the denizens at the GBC will have moved on to another government-based development scheme...

FWIW, and based on some of the knowledge I have, for the MTA to make cost-effectiveness, they would have to

--Kill UMB station (rename Poppleton Station to UMB, so UMB isn't slighted); it's an underground station and expensive

--Ax Fells Point station, or at best, combine it with Inner Harbor East station; I'm sorry but never did that alignment warrant or justify two underground stations in that area so close together. Of course, losing Fells Point would destroy convenient access to most of the places along the waterfront most wanted to go to as Canton Station would be all the way down near Tindeco Wharf. This basically nullifies the purpose of a waterfront line other than to serve Inner Harbor East and Canton Crossing--a place which is little more than one office tower at present.

--Worse still, they may combine Charles Center and Howard St LRT station to one station which might require an outside 2.5 transfer from the Red Line to the Metro, or a 3 block pedestrian tunnel to the same. Right now it's bad enough that the proposal has a 2 block transfer--the most of any system built in the publicly funded era.

--Cut one of the two SSA Stations. I don't think anyone would care too much, but I think SSA didn't want it.

--And of course the unprecedented Deathtrap single-tracked tunnel under Cooks Lane.

How else does one get the cost-effectiveness down from $31.98 to $24.49? That requires a combined decrease in costs and increase in benefits to yield a 23% improvment in cost-effectiveness.

If you drive by W. Balto. MARC station, honk if you don't like third-rate, top-down planned transit projects with deathtrap tunnels.

Nate Payer
TRAC

Nate - good points all around. I agree with you, the FTA will see 4C as the no-build option that it is. If they don't, the City will have successfully done what it has gotten so good at: shooting itself in the foot. By destroying the waterfront and congesting traffic on both East and West sides without creating a viable alternate route. In doing so, this system will do more harm than good. I guess it's our job to make sure the FTA knows this and isn't fooled by the MTA's dog and pony show.

Monorail is the only way to go, lower cost, smaller foot print, no traffic displacement.

I, for one, see that you have to break some eggs to make an omelette. If Baltimore, or any moderate to large city, is going to have a future they need to set the stage for folks to live here without the need for a car. Rails show more commitment than bus lines, and I believe that it is close to universally accepted conventional wisdom that property values as a whole rise when you make them rail accessible/commuter friendly. That said, I hope the planners are doing an efficient job and that the implementation will achieve its goals of striking the sweet spot between cost-effective and convenient.

I applaud the folks taking this issue head-on, keeping the MTA and local govt. honest!

"Tom - Heavy rail has never been on the table. In the DEIS, the MTA evaluated one of TRAC's proposals. They picked the most expensive one, then crippled all the mass transit connections so that ridership was minimized, and double-billed a few things. Even with all that, it was barely more expensive than 4D (the max-tunnel alternative). There are heavy rail alignments proposed that could have more riders than 4C with 1/2 as much tunnel - but they don't connect the developers' dots."

Marty, I agree with you there.

The Governor has chosen the 4C Alternative. It's not the best plan out there, but it is much better than BRT and the non-alternatives touted by naysayers both on and off this board.

One thing I hasten to bring up: If your only experience with surface Light Rail is the Howard Street corridor, please stop trying to act as though you're an authority on this subject. You are not. There are plenty of successful surface Light Rail systems on urban streets throughout both the country and world which have either had no impact or even increased business and property values in the corridors they were constructed. A few examples are the Muni in SF, Phoenix's new Light Rail system and the much touted Portland, OR system.

The Howard Street corridor is in such a sorry state for the same reason the rest of the West side of downtown is in a bad way. Many businesses moved out and frankly the proximity to the actual West Side of Baltimore, for reasons we don't need to go into now, scares them from moving back in. The Light Rail had as little to do with these events as it does with blight on Park Ave, Franklin St., Mulberry St and numerous other roadways in that part of town.

While all of you suburban commuters and million dollar waterfront homeowners are complaining, let me give you the prospective of those of us in the Canton area that are closer to Eastern Ave than Boston Street... YEAH RED LINE!!!! We have been waiting for a way to ferry us to downtown for years, and while the water taxi from Korean Memorial Park is "cute" it's not really effective or viable in the winter months.

While I may have paid about 1/5th the price as those who are sitting right on the water, there are about 10 times as many houses in my area, and they all are screaming for a fast, convenient, railed transit to downtown for work, shopping and to connect to the current yellow and blue lines. I currently park in Hampden and take the light rail to baseball games, which is a pain in the butt, and I'm sure people in Hampden don't exactly appreciate me taking their parking spaces since I live in southeast... I'd rather walk the half mile and take safe, reliable transit than unlike a bus isn't subject to stadium traffic.

My neighbors and I have been following this closely for over a year now, and while we aren't as vocal as the minority of southeast baltimoreans who don't want this project, we are 100% in favor of the project. If there ever were a rally FOR the redline I think you'd be surprised just how many people would show up. Our only point of contention is that the current configuration goes down Boston Street instead of Eastern Ave, but you can't have everything I guess.

Hold the phone. O'Malley is going with the single track tunnel option for Cook's Lane.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Oh my god these people are stupid. Unbelievable.

O'Malley does it again! How did Marylander's vote him into office? The alternative 4C is a horrible idea. Light Rails don't work. How can we the people stop this?

Honestly, if you're just posting on this blog because you heard O'Malley did something, then please save your keystrokes. There's a certain type of political observer that has developed recently, the constant naysayer in both Maryland and National politics. Generally they're Republicans and their brilliant observations amount to if O'Malley or Obama did something everything about it is automatically wrong.

4C is a decent plan. Light Rails work fine. The big problem here is the single track tunnel under Cooks Lane which is really foolhardy. But don't try and tie this, like everything else, into your political agenda folks. Your arguments just fall flat given that there are never any viable solutions being put forth by the right and that there is always incessant criticism regardless of what the Democrats do.

Let's reason this out a bit here. Boston Street is congested with cars because commuters do not want to pay tolls for coming to and from downtown areas. On top of that, people park on both sides of Boston Street, leaving the 4 lanes road down to two from time to time. So now, the city want to add on to this congestion by permanently adding a surface red line in Canton? And why on earth did the city spend money to beautify Boston street with trees and proper urban planning just to tear it down and install cabling messes for the surface red line? This makes no sense what-so-ever! Wouldn't it make more sense to: 1. allow NO parking on Boston Street, unless designated; 2. have the underground tunnel come up near the Cann Company; and 3. create dedicated lanes (with fencing or concrete barrier - similar to what was installed in NYC on Broadway Steet to let out tourists) for smaller bus type transportation from the Cann Company to end of "red line". This way, Bus stops could be re-used, minimum construction will be required (rework of side walk for dedicated bus lanes on both sides of Boston), and we can keep the successful out come of the original urban planning of Canton and Boston Street. I hope that FTA will shoot down $1B request; so that Baltimore MTA could rethink their design and involving the communities more properly.

It's a shame that cost-cutting the project will create the single-track tunnel under Cooks Lane. If it gets the Red Line built then it has to be that way. However, there should be a provision to build a second tunnel once the Red Line is finished, under a Small Starts program.

I still think if the project was phased construction, the Red Line could be everything everyone wants it to be.

I am a Canton resident as well as a project manager for a construction management company. I am involved with owners of various projects on a daily basis and ALWAYS suggest biting the bullet and building things right the first time. This whole proposal , the proclaimed "band aid" act, is what Baltimore is famous for. It’s inevitably going to fail miserably and become engulfed in the glorious foliage that landscapes a majority of the city. I am a huge believer of public transportation and would love the fact of being able to jump on the “metro” to go to the O’s game (and probably come back disappointed, spend some money guys… common theme around town? -sidebar). I’m perplexed at why the city wants to ruin some of the most scenic areas of the city with train tracks (and single tracks for that matter!). This is going to be a never ending money pit. It will cost a 1/4 of the amount to install the second track at the same time rather than two years later after its deemed completely unproductive. It’s about getting the most value for your money, not spending the least amount. Spend the money, do it right, put two tracks underground! Lets take pride in our city guys, build something we can pride!

On the red line: Boston st is one the busiest streets in balt from the east side from 95. They have no parking on either side of the 4 lane road during rush hrs in the am and pm. A light rail in the middle of the street will block off 2 lanes leaving 2 lanes and no parking. Canton is comprised of recent college graduates and young urban professionals living on or near the water. We have cars and we dont need mass transit. Who needs it is the employees coming and going from bayview hospital and points north. Last, Hale's bank is failing and he needs revenue. He wants tthe red line to bring people to his proposed metropolis that he intends to build near his Canton Tower. What this will do is get him to sell and lease commercial space and make more money. What he is forgetting is the these retailers dont want or need people that ride on the transit. They need people with money ie people with cars and incomes. Its a good idea to run it north and then down to Hales properties, not bring crime to Canton and bring Property values down.

Why not have a hybrid system? Part BRT and LRT. Nix the Security Blvd / Woodlawn portion of the system as no one will ride on the weekend and start at I-70. Run BRT or some of the 60 foot long buses from a transit hub on the I-70 commuter lot and new rail stop out to SSA and CMMS during the week. Not sure of the savings but minimally, there may be an opportunity to double tunnel under Cooks Lane. Finally, I've never understood the rationale behind not using the existing tunnel downtown as a beginning piece for an east-west "Red Line" maybe entering downtown from a connecting tunnel at State Center or Lexington Market with the new line continuing east to Shot Tower and on to Harbor East and Canton in a tunnel. That just makes so much more since to me instead of builiding a new non-intersecting tunnel a block or more south. The cost to build the "Lombard Street" tunnel, if not built,could potentially fund a new tunnel that connects at Shot Tower and runs totally underground out to the aerial portion proposed in Alt 4C. Of course what I am suggesting is just a layman's/non engineer's perspective understanding that there is a whole city of storm/sewer, electrical and other utility systems running under Baltimore -- which is a very old city; a fact that exacerbates the engineering challenges and in turn increases the cost -- so this is probably not a dollars to dollars/ apples to apples reality -- but it just makes sense. Not sure why the "powers that be" are rushing this -- there will be other funding cycles. Do the planning and get it right. Other cities have figured it out -- we should be able to do so in Baltimore. As it stands now, looks like we are going to get the 4C plan -- I guess it beats a blank --onward!!

Joe,

I live in Canton closer to Eastern than Boston as well, but I know it's the development and increased property values along the waterfront that has gone a long way to help raise the attraction to and value of the surrounding neighborhoods. Anything that drives away demand for housing in the area is bad for all property owners in the area. Our values are tied to theirs.

I support the plan if it stays underground up to or past Canton Crossing.

Steve,

I'm not sure why I am even taking the bait. There is so much wrong with what you just said.

There are many people out there, even in Canton, that want transit. They just don't want it above ground on Boston Street.

Your crime argument is just wrong, but there's no arguing with folks like you. You're worse than birthers.

I'm offended by the implication that anyone who wants transit has no income and cannot afford a car.

Where do you work? How much do you pay to get there in gas? How much do you pay to park?

Let's speculate and expand this discussion for a minute to do something not often done at the MTA: thinking ahead.

Let's say the Health Care Reform package is passed this Fall by Congress with a Public Option included in the legislation. Again this is speculation, but it stands to reason that the administrative headquarters for the Public Plan could well be based at Woodlawn near the existing Federal facilities for Social Security and Medicare.

If this is the case, putting that single track tunnel under Cook's Lane becomes even more stupid than it is right now. Also getting leverage for Federal funding for the full Red Line gets that much easier as the new employees need a good way to get to work.

Just food for thought folks...

HEAVY RAIL IS THE ONLY WAY TO GO FOR SUCH A LONG ROUTE. PERIOD.

How long will it take to get completely across town on light rail that stops at red lights & only 20mph?

What? 2 hours? Somebody give me an estimate. Amuse me.
The current light rail system has had nothing but problems and low usage and has turned an already dying Howard Street into a ghost town.
Did we not learn anything?

This compromise plan is so DOA its not funny.

You've got people on both the east and west sides of town willing to fight it and the opposition even crosses racial lines!

It's almost as if Gov. Martin O'Malley is just BEGGING people to not re-elect him in the next election!

Where is all the Federal infrastructure money going?
Obviously NOT HERE!

I'm the ONLY person, including Michael Dresser I'd bet, who has a copy of the original 1970s Baltimore Subway map design plan in my hands directly from the State Legislature.
Is there anyone here posting that even knows that the Charles Center station was originally designed to be a hub for like 5 subway lines?

That 1970s plan is STILL BETTER than ANY Baltimore traffic plan SINCE!
The stupidity of our politicians and traffic planners continues to amaze me over the decades!

I wish I could post Subway map pics here. You'd all be amazed at the BALTIMORE METRO that was originally planned but not built, while Washington DCs was completely built out.
The original Baltimore METRO plan was just slightly smaller than the original DC Metro,
BUT NONE OF IT EXCEPT HALF OF ONE LINE WAS EVER BUILT!

And you wonder why we have a problem today?

Baltimore deserves one decent Subway line. The current one is a joke and parallels an interstate, which defeats much of its purpose and its not even a finished line!

I've had conversations about Baltimore's mass transit and I always argue that if Baltimore had a good metro like DC, this city would be much more attractive to large businesses and people living down here.

We need to do this right but we also need to do something quickly. Whatever is put up should focus on how it can attract the IBM's of the world to move HQ's to downtown Baltimore and help the morning commute for people. If it doesn't give us that, then spend the money somewhere else.

And I'm liking the monorail idea. I don't know why they don't take that more seriously. Is the technology just not there?

You can see all those subway plans online here, along with the history:

http://www.roadstothefuture.com/BRRTS.html

It's expected to take 44 minutes to traverse the line, not 2 hours.

Also-note in addition to lack of funding, most of this subway was nixed due to NIMBYism

Having ridden the current light rail many times, you can take that 44 minutes and just discard it immediately. With single track and so much above ground, times will be completely determined by TRAFFIC, not traffic planners and stupid politicians' pie in the sky wishes.
And I'm sure that 44 minutes is based on REDUCED traffic, which of course any sane person knows is not going to happen!

I'm not sure who's to blame more, the politicians, the traffic planners who come up with these failed compromise plans, or the policy wonks who post here and blindly state gov't stats that they know will ultimately prove to be untrue.

For instance, is there a sane person who really believes the compromise I-95 Spaghetti Bowl I-95/695 interchange is actually going to reduce traffic? If so, commit yourself into a facility now. On a map, it looks like a child's maze game where you have to find your way out alive from the maze. Unbelievably stupid. HOV lanes are a proven failure in Northern Virginia and more expensive to build then just widening a road. Traffic confusion leads to more backups, the extra lanes are underused. Often you drive down there, and I-95 is a standstill and the HOV lanes are practically empty and unused. What a waste of money.
Will these environmental nutjobs ever learn a lesson?
You cannot force people to do what they do NOT want to do.
As a result the I-95 toll road will prove to be a failure and a traffic snarl just like with DC's Mixing Bowl and a complete waste of taxpayers' dollars.

Mark my words, the people of Baltimore will NOT pay the TOLL on I-95 and those lanes that cost a fortune to build will be EMPTY most of the time at the cost of millions of dollars of wasted money.

These compromise plans always cause 5 things to happen...

#1 Traffic confusion. It seems to be something traffic planners don't study or refuse to study.
(see DC's Mixing Bowl or visit Howard Street if you have any doubts on this)

#2 Constant unexpected elays due to single tracking with light rail.

#3 Increased traffic on the roads that will have light rail tracks.

#4 Increased accidents on roads never designed to handle light rail in the first place and in single tracked tunnels.

#5 A complete waste of money that ultimately has to be fixed at a much greater cost later.

All of these things make the RED LINE proposal completely DOA.
They should just wait until the money is there for heavy rail instead of coming up with another failed plan. This plan is a complete joke that will cost a fortune to fix and make work immediately AFTER it's FINISHED, just like with the previous light rail project!

Who are these people posting here that they like this plan?
Did no one learn anything from the current light rail's problems?
Or does O'Malley have his people on BaltimoreSun.com blogging for support for this mess ???
Gotta be the later. Too funny.

Jed,

IIRC, the second phase of the Metro was to be a southern line to Glen Burnie intersecting at a temporary terminus at Charles Center. That was the only line killed due to out and out NIMBYism.

By that point it was the early eighties and the original all-heavy rail plans (1965, 1968, 1972ish) had started to fade after Anne Arundul NIMBY backlash. Non-Baltimore area legislators didn't want to spend money on the City and traffic just wasn't bad enough yet. (Then we opened the McHenry tunnel). An LRT proposal from Otterbein to Towson/Timonium was in the works. It would forgo the critical upper Charles/York corridor in favor of the Northern Center RR, but would have built a diversion to inner Towson and gone THROUGH Penn Station eventually entering a tunnel to meet at Charles Center downtown and then to Otterbein/Fed Hill (not Camden). Howard St wasn't involved. Some lesser variations used some surface downtown streets along with a portion of the old ROW along the Fallsway. But all had a direct Charles Center connection. (Interestingly, Ed Cohen and I developed thumbnail engineering for our TRAC alternative that mirrored what the MTA was looking at circa 1982).

The City/MTA might have gone with that, but TPTB wanted new transit for the new Camden Yards NOW!!! And we rushed through our good friend the Central Light Rail.

That fiasco soured Baltimore on further mass transit for years, until a legitimate attempt to design a system starting around 2000 started to go awry shortly after the start.

Chris,

See my comments on Dresser's monorail post for the 2 important technical reasons why they aren't a good option.

Nate Payer
TRAC

Joe,

It's not worth debating with you because you have your mind made up and are using transit simply to discredit O'Malley.

Just two notes: the interchange is not HOV, It's HOT. I think it's a boondoggle, but I'd definitely pay extra to avoid traffic. So would others. It's a boondoggle because they are expanding the highway AND putting in HOT, instead of just putting in HOT.

Also, many of the streets the Red Line will travel on were actually designed with rail transit in mind, and transit actually traveled on them at one point.

OK, back to your O'Malley bashing.

Corrections to Jed, etc...

Boston Street was NOT designed for RAIL TRAFFIC.
It was actually originally designed for I-95, but that was abandoned because of multiple reasons, one of which would have been a huge bridge across the Inner Harbor that would have ruined much of the harbor development we now have today.

It's not really O'Malley bashing, the original HOT I-95 proposal is actually an Ehrlich proposal if I'm not mistaken. Regardless, Ehrlich didn't actually begin the plan and its unknown if the I-95 mess that is being built would have been built if O'Malley hadn't been elected, so there's no way for him to not get the ultimate blame. And btw, I predict few people will pay to use these HOT lanes other than possibly out of state travelers, and the lanes will probably be EMPTY just like the HOV lanes often are in NoVA!

If you stand there with a shovel to dig dirt for a bad traffic plan, guess what?

YOU TAKE THE BLAME.
That's how it works in politics.

As for the Red Line, its a big mistake and waste of money and the same re-hashed light rail plan that failed the first time around with the current light rail.

Will we ever learn anything from history?

If these traffic planners used these same techniques to design buildings and stadiums, they'd all be falling down right now.

I'd rather have the Inner Harbor Gondolas! And they'll probably make more money!

Even building I-70 to completion would do better for traffic than this current Red Line plan.

Joe,

Boston St. had rail traffic, albeit before redevelopment. Call it what you will, you may be right.

I take issue with your I-70 claim. If we had (or do) built (build) out that proposal, crime will skyrocket in this city. There is nothing like a physical barrier between communities to ruin them.

Do you propose we also tear out Mt. Vernon and do I-83 as planned? Rip out Fed Hill? Canton? Fells Point?

The highway expansion plans for this city were some of the most ludicrous, 50s-60s automotive based travesties that have ever occured in US transit planning. Bringing them back now would be like looking a gift horse in the mouth, then shooting it down and sending it to the glue factory.

Please, please don't advocate for more inner city highways.

To Jed:

I-95 as it ultimately was built turned out to be a total success. As it was originally planned through Boston Street, it would have been a disaster just like the Red Line will be and will destroy development plans just like that I-95 bridge never built over the harbor would have destroyed the Inner Harbor.

As for I-70, how can you destroy a neighborhood already falling down that needs help?
There was no valid traffic reason or even neighborhood related reason that I-70 was not completed. The parts that were completed don't even separate any neighborhoods.
It just became a racial issue further hyped by the change in the I-95 plan back then and no one's gotten over it since.
The only difference is the I-70 proposal would have been a success and brought more people into west Baltimore just like the later I-95 proposal ultimately did. This idea that inner city highways don't work is policy wonk traffic planning liberal BS. I-95 transformed Canton & Fells Point in ways that are unimagined by narrow minded politicians and traffic planner wannabees.

I-83 is a success in the way it was ultimately built on many levels. I am however in favor of tearing down some of the bridges, and lowering the highway to a street grade boulevard south of Mount Vernon. In my opinion, once you're downtown, you're downtown. At that point there's no need for a highway.

By the way, I've never favored the ORIGINAL 1960's Baltimore highway plan, let me get that straight.
I only favored the original SUBWAY plan. But I do think I-70 would have done for West Baltimore what I-95 ultimately did for Canton and Fells Point.

These are of course my opinions, your mileage may vary. :-)