Here come the lawsuits. The Clintons have Harold Ickes on the case. He's to be underestimated at Obama's peril.

This is getting ugly fast.

You silenced your own voters, FL and MI guvs --you violated DNC rules and refused a re-vote. No way will your delegates be seated, not gonna happen. It is not fair, and I will be one of the millions of Americans leading the charge in protest.

I agree - seat the delegates, but hold a REAL election in both states first, and require the states' election boards to pay for it.

It's not the voters' fault that their elected officials in their respective states were more interested in power brokering than in running smooth elections, and it's not the DNC's fault that the states' election commitees were willing to give up their delegates for the primary in order to make a point. It seems the only truly fair thing to do is to set these primaries out a handful of weeks in the future, allow the candidates to be put on the ballots, and allow them to campaign actively in these two states. Give the voters a chance to participate in this historic Democratic primary!

Why not just strip half the delegates like the RNC did? There's a way to punish them without disenfranchising the voters.

Howard Dean - doofus of the year!

How could the DNC not imagine that their rules would let the Republican legislature and Governor in Florida disenfranchise Florida Democrats.

Voting in a party primary is not a constitutional right. Quitcherwhining and spare us the maudlin lickspittle.

If they don't seat the delegates from MI and FL, they certainly are disenfranchising those who voted.

But, if they do seat the delegates, they are disenfranchising those voters who chose not to vote. An argument along the lines of "if you didn't vote, you have no right to complain that your votes don't count" does not apply here because it was known a'priori that the votes would not result in any delegates.

The only solution - if there can be one - must make sure neither type of voter is disenfranchised.

Bemused...let me get this straight... The Dems screw the voters by knowingly and willingly moving the primary dates. They very well knew the consequences. Now that the Dems (Hillary) wants and needs these states, you want to blame the Republicans for the entire mess???????

The only do over should be Michigan. Florida vote with everyone on the ballot and only a national campaign ad by Obama hitting the market. I say yes to counting Florida votes as is -- it was a fair playing field.

Barak Obama's Accomplishments:

1. Bought a cheap house with free garden, saved 300k.
2. Successfully delayed 15 parking tickets for over 20 years (think how much gain he could have made investing it)
3. Invented a way to vote on tough issues without jeopardize his political future (voting present, he should patent it)
4. Secured most campaign funding among all candidates from big insurance co.
5. Successfully (for a while) fooled US voters on NAFTA rhetoric.
6. Made people faint in rallies. (repeatable results)
7. Made his wife feel proud of US for the first time.
8. Successfully held on to the subcommittee chair position for over a year without holding any hearings.

This is a horrible mistake by the Democrats and it will cost them dearly in Nov if they do not sit Florida and Michigan.

I'd be curious to know what people think of this compromise:
Obama camp says that seating the delegates would be unfair because many of his supporters didn't vote, thinking it wouldn't count. Why not give people who didn't vote, say, three weeks to request a ballot and mail it to the DNC? For people who already voted, it's done. For those who didnt' vote thinking it wouldn't matter, they get a chance.
Who does this hurt? (I think the citizens of these states are hurt by actions they did not commit)

I will also storm the gates in protest. It's a fair revote or nothing...no more sneaky Clinton shenanigans.

Clinton sure has Granholm working it for her--too bad Granholm hasn't delivered on her promises of more educational opportunities for MI unemployed.

If this does not set the case for national or regional primaries, I don't know what does. The Democrats want a few out of the way out of touch states (Iowa, New Hampshire) to rule the roost and choose the nom, while the larger states have to wait it out and have less influence. If they were allowed to campaign in MI and FL, Clinton would have had even larger margins. This is not "unfair". Why should it matter when a state holds a primary, unless the party wants these smaller states to have an unfair influence on the outcome.

C'mon, bemused, do you really think former Canadian Jen Granholm and the dem legislature in Michigan are all RNC moles? The democrats made this mess. No one to blame but themselves.

Irony: the "Look at me" folks in Florida and Michigan got what they wanted by moving their primaries up while thumbing their noses at the national committees. We looked at you, but instead of making yourselves appear more important, you look foolish.

Obama should take his delegates and run for President as an Independent .

Forget the Dems

The Clintons are such sleezy corrupt people

Do overs? Change the rules after the fact? Get over it! The states made their choices knowing full well what the rules were. If anyone is responsible for disenfranchising voters it is the voters themselves. They picked their leaders, now thay can live with the results of that decision.

Whether who gets more delegates is another thing. But it is a shame that these voices are silenced. These voices shall not and cannot be punished.

Al Gore is laughing his butt off at all of this. How great! Way to go Dems. Billary the Uniter fast at work. She has every right to run, but taking the campaign so negative is Clinton 101 - and also why she has Zero chance of winning a general election. Look at the polls - McCain v Clinton 50/50. As a Billary hater and an Independent, I don't have as many problems with a moderate McCain as I do the Clintons for a 2nd term.
Chelsea Clinton in 2020? How revolutionary!

Bemused

Good point, which many seem to be ignorant of. The Fl Dems had no role in changing the primary. The FL repubs did it all by themselves. This way they ensured animosity toward Dems by just enough voters in the GE to swing things their way. I do agree with Dean's 50-state strategy, but the man is clearly an idiot otherwise. He couldn't win his own campaign; why would anyone put him in charge of the entire party?

If Obama wants to win he only has to do three things:
#1) He is doing right now by pointing to the Taxes; but he needs to go further and point to her White House papers and Bill's financial dealings in TV Ads(in a nice way of course).
#2) He has GOT to point out the hurry-up and do nothing strategy she has for the White House. She says she is ready on day one, but when asked for specifics on most problems like housing she says she’ll have a hiatus and then convene a committee to ‘review the problem’. I would to see an add show her saying she’ll convene a committee as she has done over and over and over and then at the end ask, ‘Are these solution’s you can count on.’ I mean convening a committee is Washington speak for doing nothing and her people are buying it.
#3) Finally, he must put a TV add out in Pennsylvania directly attacking the Muslim argument. I talked to my Uncle last week who is a white Christian Minister in Indiana and he thought Obama converted to Christianity 20 years ago after being a practicing Muslim. I had to explain that he wasn’t a Muslim and only lived overseas for 4 years. This must be addressed on the air or you allow Clinton to continue her whisper campaign.

Just my thoughts, I am a die hard democrat, but I will not vote for Hillary because of what the Clinton’s did to our party in the 90’s. I mean they passed everything the Republican’s couldn’t get through under G. H.W. Bush and the DLC might as well be the Republican party lite.

Just when I think I have to vote Democratic to rid us of all vestiges of Bush, the Democrats remind me how their non-pragmatic, holier-than-thou, morally-gifted feel-goodism always backfires. As always they did not think it through and are now faced with yet another interference in the democratic process (as if the super delegates, and the Jesse Jackson inspired way of counting delegates hadn't already made a mockery of the voting).

Shannon Lynn, you are a LIAR. Hillary has received more money from Insurance companies than any other candidate. Don't take my word for it, check it out yourself:

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/select.asp?Ind=F09

The GOP governor in Florida has offered the Democrats a re-vote. They should accept the offer. Jennifer Granholm could have vetoed the legislature's vote to move her state's primary up to January 15th. She didn't. Tough. Either re-vote, or your votes don't count. Hillary Clinton vs "Uncommitted" in a race where most people didn't show up since they knew their votes wouldn't count doesn't matter.

Quote"

Shannon Lynn, you are a LIAR. Hillary has received more money from Insurance companies than any other candidate. Don't take my word for it, check it out yourself:

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/select.asp?Ind=F09
"

And let's not forget that Hillary has taken nearly TWICE the amount of money from REGISTERED LOBBYISTS than any other candidate. Solutions for tomorrow? Hardly! More like a return to the past.

Perhaps the voters of Michigan and Floriduh can also have a recall vote of the nitwits that moved the primary up in the first place. Representative government, means we elect people who should know better. Representatives in Michigan and Floriduh should be held accountable for there citizens being disenfranchised.

This post is just a blatant lie:

Bemused

Good point, which many seem to be ignorant of. The Fl Dems had no role in changing the primary. The FL repubs did it all by themselves. This way they ensured animosity toward Dems by just enough voters in the GE to swing things their way. I do agree with Dean's 50-state strategy, but the man is clearly an idiot otherwise. He couldn't win his own campaign; why would anyone put him in charge of the entire party?

Posted by: Heretic | March 5, 2008 5:00 PM

Almost all the democrats in the Florida legislature voted to move up the primary: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4610003

Even if this slander had a hint of truth, which it doesn't, you can't claim that Jen Granholm and the heavily democrat Michigan legislature didn't know what they were doing.

I hope both florida and michigan sue the shit out of the rnc and dnc and get a judge to for thoses votes to count, if you take away votes your one more stpe to becomming nazi's!!
Nazi's all of you fuckers

Let them vote

It is astounding how many people think it is perfectly okay to throw away votes of people other than themselves. The people in Michigan and Florida HAVE ALREADY VOTED! There does not need to be a re-vote or caucus or anything. The rules were wrong and faulty and DO NOT DESERVE to have been followed! Not to mention that in Florida the Republican legislature pushed the faulty rules. The rule was no campaigning in Michigan or Florida. No one campaigned there.(Although I undestand Mr. O had commercials running in Florida). The rules DID NOT say take your name off the ballot. Hillary, Mr.K, Mr. Dodd, and Mr. Gravel had the sense to keep their names on the ballot in Michigan. Sorry you folks who love the non-progressive, war-funding Obama so much. The people knew who they were voting for and their votes should be counted! What the voters of Michigan and Florida should do? Say "Count our votes and seat our delegates from our primaries or we will sit it out in November! Take your choice Democrats!" The idea that so many people want to throw votes away because they did not go for Mr. O is the same as so-called educators going along with the awful 'no child left behind' law. it is bad and should not be followed under any circumstances.

Clinton has demonstrated a willingness to lie to try and get what she wants,
and to break civility with Obama - but Clinton does not want to go down in history as ever breaking B.S. "civility" with John McCain and the Republicans!!!!

Clinton isnt talking about any re-vote at all - Clintons numbers out of Florida and Michigan from the un-official vote, are as good as they could ever get.

I call b.s.

These posts about seating Florida and Michigan delegates without any how and why are Repub. trolls.

I don't blame you though.

With Dubya hanging in there at the 25%-30% approval ratings and Democratis elections pulling in historically high turnout you have to be desperate.

No, "What," that is not what I said. It was the Republicans who moved the primary date in Florida. It was the Democratic Party rules that didn't consider that Republican legislators (who moved up the primary date) could end up punishing Democratic primary voters.

Seat their delegates after they decided to disregard the rules? What about Edwards and all the other candidates who are not now in the race?

Dean needs to stand on his word and make them pay for the ill doings of their legislatures. If the people of Florida and Michigan are upset then show them how angry you are by voting the all the bums responsible out.

Here come the lawsuits. The Clintons have Harold Ickes on the case. He's to be underestimated at Obama's peril.

This is getting ugly fast.

Posted by: Jeff | March 5, 2008 3:24 PM

LOL.

Ickes, pooie.

He's been in presidential politics since backing that loser Eugene McCarthy in '68.

He didn't even back Carter.

So he's lost every election in 40 years but 2.

That's a .200 batting percentage. Are you sure his name isn't "Mendoza"?

What about the fact that Barack and John Edwards didn't have the opportunity to campaign in either state against a "household name". Barack has made major gains against polling in every primary and caucus, if not actually overcoming that polling and winning those events. To bypass that process in Michigan and Florida is criminal. Did Hillary just forget to take her name off the Michigan ballot? Maybe we should assume all the non-Hillary votes should go to Barack. This whole campaign is getting scary. Worse than politics as usual. It's starting to take on shades of fascism. Are we going to blow up the Democratic party and hand this mess back to the Republicans? Hell hath no fury..............

So now the governors are arguing for changing the rules after the game has been played. In their cry that "disenfranchising" their states' voters is unfair, they are being unfair themselves. Only one candidate, Clinton, will benefit from a decision to reverse an agreement of the DNC regarding the counting of delegates. Ironically, Obama, the one who played by the rules, will be penalized for doing so. Unless the governors are willing to conduct a re-vote, the only fair way of resolving the problem, despite the cost, unfairness will be the result. It's up to the governors to put their money where their supposed priority is: a fair result from a fair election. Otherwise, they're guilty of letting stand a bogus result. They have the proverbial egg on their faces now because they didn't fight the DNC decision when they should have and consequently have angry constituents on their hands. So in essence, they're trying to cover their butts. Either the DNC has validity and authority or it doesn't; accepting before an election then reversing afterwards is the basic unfairness. In such a close election for the Democratic nominee, this amounts to skewing the results in favor of one candidate, ironically, the one who violated the agreement. Ah, politics! And you wonder why people shake their heads in disgust? Shame on you, governors. And shame on you, Hillary, for stooping to dishonesty to win. For you, trust must be just a word--and an empty one at that.

Shannon Lynn knows nothing how the "present" vote works in the IL State Legislature or that the Obamas made the highest bid on the house (15% below asking price) and the sellers accepted it--perfectly fair and legal. Fainting took place at rallies because of the crowds. Sharon Lynn's kind of silliness is based on willful ignorance.
Kinda like how Bush got elected.

Of all of the problems with this scenarion, such as Clinton and Obama both promising not to campaing in these states, one of the most glaring ones is that Obama's name was not on the Michigan ballot.

So, does anyone here think that it would somehow be fair to the voters of Michigan or the rest of the country to just give Hillary the delgates from Michigan that she won in an uncontested election that the rules said would not count?

Also, what about Edwards, Biden, Richardson, Kucinich etc who might have been able to turn their campaigns around with a win in Michigan?

Bemused and Heretic,

The Florida legislature moved the primary date up for both parties by a vote of 37-2 in the Senate (4/27/07) and 118-0 in the House (5/3/07). Bemused, your comment that
Fla Dems had nothing to do with this and it was all the work of the GOP is absolute BS. As you can see, the idea to move up the date had nearly unanimous backing of both Dems and Reps in Fla. Your conspiracy theories are nonsense too. First, the GOP is not this clever. Second, they would have never done it if they knew half their delegates would be stripped. The fact that Howard Dean and the DNC made the bizarre decision to strip all of the delegates from Florida surprised everyone, especially those in Florida. Now if this is not made right somehow, Fla Democrats are disenfranchised, and I wouldn't blame them for boycotting the general election. That is what the DNC gets for putting a loon like Dean in charge of the DNC.

America the beautiful, land of the free and home of the brave, should prepare itself for a revolt in this country if the Democratic leadership permits Senator Hillary Clinton to successfully argue that she has won the delegates from Michigan and Florida. Senator Clinton has arrogantly subverted the Democratic Party’s decision to not seat the delegates of these two states because they ignored the decision of the party regarding holding early elections. Whether overtly or covertly, Senator Clinton elected to insert herself and her politics into these state primaries because she plays to win at all cost to everyone, including her own party. Senator Obama will essentially be punished by the states of Michigan, Florida, and Ms. Clinton for that matter, because he abided by the rules of the Democratic hierarchy, was a team player, and did not campaign in the two restricted states. On the other hand, Senator Clinton has flaunted the ruling of the party in the Democratic leadership's face and has charted her own “lone ranger” course just as she has done throughout this election and everyone had pandered to her wishes, including the media. If Senator Clinton and the governors of Florida and Michigan wish to honor all citizens in their states, then schedule a bonafide, legitimate Democratic primary. Otherwise, Florida and Michigan’s primaries are nothing more than contests modeled after Cuba, Russia, and other socialist countries; rigged before they ever take place. Enough is enough.

The only people unhappy with the rules are Hillary supporters or Republicans trying to screw up the Democrats.

Everyone knew what the rules were BEFORE the election.

No do-overs. Just suck it up.

In Florida the remaining 2 candidates were BOTH on the ballot. They didn't campaign there but both were a choice for Florida voters.

In order to avoid a deadlocked convention, those delegates should count.

Michigan is more problematic. The only choice the Michigan voters had was Clinton or uncommitted. (And the voters are still furious with Granholm as Edwards had an enormous amount of support here.)

THe Michigan Democratic Party told voters to mark uncommitted if their choice was 'other than Clinton.'

If those delegates are seated, the 'uncommitted' delegates should be given to Obama and the rest to Clinton per the vote.

(And other sanctions should be imposed on those 2 states for their conduct.)

How many of you live in Florida? The Repukes in Tallahassee pulled this one; they control both chambers of FL government. We have seen this now in 2000, 2004, and 2008. Hopefully, the turnout will finally defeat these sewer lowlifes from pulling this off again.

Just because I voted for Bill, does not mean I must vote for Hillary. Now that I have seen more about the character of both, especially the extent that both are willing to smear Obama to get back in the White House, I do not know if I would vote Democratic this time. Obama is the clearest and most likely chance for the Democrats to regain the White House. I hope that women, who are admitedly voting gender, do not allow the Republicans to regain the White House. The average citizen has faired poorly under the second Bush administration. I am thoroughly confounded why the average voter does not get it.

They should not be seated...period. A "do over" would be an insult to the other Democratic candidates who never had a chance to campaign. If the Florida and Michigan electorate has a problem with the process the should fix it before the NEXT primary. (remember 2000?) Also Charlie Christ should keep his Republican nose out of it.

I'm so disappointed in you Lib's....you guy's are losing your touch...I miss the good ole day's when you nut cases would just blame everything on Dick Cheney and Haliburton......maybe the little weasel who runs the DNC in Michigan has a distant relative in the "big oil" industry!!! Hey..you never know!!! Keep sitting up all night next to your computers..I know you can find a way to blame Dick Cheney.

Let's have no more talk about counting the Florida votes. The candidates have a right to campaign in any state that is seating delegates; otherwise, the vote is more a metric of name recognition than of which candidate better represents the voters. A vote without a campaign just doesn't make sense.

I must emphasize again that Michigan had NO CHOICE. Obama was not a choice for us, therefore it wasn't a fair primary. Those of us who cannot abide Hillary were unwilling to leave an "uncommited" vote to chance, since it could have gone to her.

If the 5,163,271 Americans who turned out to vote in primaries where they knew their delegates wouldn't be seated, they will proudly turn out in double or triple the numbers to exercise their constituional right to vote in the General Election. They owe it to their country.

"PRIMARY CONCERN: Florida and Michigan"
Op-Ed by Congressman Jesse L. Jackson, Jr.

At her campaign celebration last night in Ohio, Hillary Clinton
raised the specter of a nasty, divisive fight at the Democratic
National Convention, claiming that she should be the party's nominee
based on her big state victories, rather than on the pledged-delegate
count. It was a slick and sophisticated attempt to change the rules
in the middle of the game and declare herself the winner.

She said, "You all know that if we want a Democratic president, we
need a Democratic nominee who can win the battleground states just
like Ohio. And that is what we've done." Then, she listed the states
she "won," boldly including Florida and Michigan in the litany.

Weeks before her boast, Julian Bond, the Chairman of the National
Association for the Advancement of Colored People, and one of my
heroes, penned a letter to DNC Chair Howard Dean noting that he is
“deeply concerned” about the “will and intent of the Florida and
Michigan voters.”

But, both Clinton and Bond leave several important facts off the
table.

First, the rules. They were known and agreed to by everyone
involved, well before the first votes were cast in Iowa. All the
campaigns, including the Clinton campaign, pledged to honor the
“early window” that included only four states: Iowa, New Hampshire,
Nevada and South Carolina. Enforcement of the primary timing rule
against Florida and Michigan was necessary to prevent the 2008
nominating calendar from falling into chaos. Moreover, a decision to
overturn this action by the DNC could destroy our nominating process
for 2012 and future years, as states realize that there will be no
penalty for violating the primary timing rule.

Second, the DNC’s Rules Bylaws Committee gave both Florida and
Michigan a full and fair hearing, plus an open and transparent vote,
and their efforts to “jump to the head of the line” were soundly
defeated. No other state party organization or Rules Committee
members supported them. None of the campaigns—including the Clinton
campaign, which is very well represented on the Rules Committee—spoke
up for the principle of allowing Florida and Michigan to go ahead of
the other states.

Third, the new 2008 primary calendar was painstakingly worked out for
the very purpose of increasing early voting diversity. Along with
Iowa and New Hampshire, most Democrats agreed that both Latinos and
African Americans should be added to the early voting equation.
Adding Nevada and South Carolina to the early calendar increased
regional and racial diversity while protecting the grassroots, small
state nature of the early primary process. The DNC was right to
protect these two states from encroachment in the calendar by Florida
and Michigan.

Fourth, since there was no campaigning in either Florida or Michigan,
and neither the names of Obama nor Edwards even appeared on the
Michigan ballot, the idea that the votes cast there represent “the
will and intent” of the people is nonsense. We must not allow the
uncontested primaries in Florida and Michigan to “nullify” the will
of the large mass of voters in all of the hotly-contested primaries
and caucuses around the country where the candidates did campaign and
the voters had the chance to meet the candidates, ask questions, hear
their message and make an informed decision on who would be the best
nominee for the Democratic Party.

Finally, I want to be clear that this is a disagreement between the
DNC and the Florida and Michigan State Democratic Parties. This is
not—and should not become—an argument between Senator Obama and the
voters of Florida or Michigan. Senator Obama will reach out to the
voters in Florida and Michigan as the presidential nominee of our
Party, and will work hard to carry these two important states for
Democrats in the November election.

###

Congressman Jackson is serving his seventh term in the US House and
is a National Co-Chairman of the Obama for President Campaign.

Again, if you're so dedicated to the lie that the Republicans in Fla. are behind this (despite the voting record which shows all but 2 people in the state house AND senate voted for it), then answer as to how Jennifer Granholm and the majority democrat legislature of Michigan got bamboozled?

Thought so.

One poster also said the voters should file suit against the DNC and RNC. What possible case could anyone have against the RNC? The republican Florida and Michigan primaries counted. They lost half the delegates but the voters in both places have no problem with how the elections were counted.

Expected cheating by the Clintons. I'm sure they'd want the states seated if they'd lost. A very PLANNED strategy to cheat.

The Clintons are as bad as Rove. They seem to find a way to get into office any way they can other than actually winning with the most votes. Hasn't Florida done enough to this country?

Barack needs to stay cool and let the process play out.

If Hillary wins, she'll have to take him as VP and he can make strong demands - i.e. real power-sharing.

Absent that, she runs on her own and loses.

Either way, this isn't looking good for the Dems.

I can't blame Hillary or Obama, it's just the way it is.

But if the Dems can't decide among either of them, it's not time for a change.

By the way, let's stop the nonsense about McCain being a great military or foreign policy expert based on his being shot down in Vietnam. And being shot down and captured doesn't make him a hero. He was just captured and he suffered the consequences. Too bad but that was part of the deal.

McCain knows next to nothing about anything, really, and yet he's hailed as some kind of genius. He's not.

So we have 4 more years of an idiot in the White House. How do we hope to get beyond Iraq if we can't make a good choice (Biden) for president because women want a woman and blacks want a black?

While it's true FL Dems had no control over their primary date, the DNC should have noted that and let their primary count from the beginning. Hillary should have made that point clear from the beginning.

Neither the DNC or Hillary had the sense of fairness to acknowledge the FL Dems situation and so you can't just give Hillary credit for her "victory" there now.

Hillary prides herself on being "ready from Day One," on having "experience," but her poor judgment is once again exposed.

There are no "do-overs." She made a mistake in the 90s with her healthcare plan, she trusted GW on Iraq, and she NOW wants to count FL instead of standing up for Floridians earlier.

No. Sorry. Poor judgment once again exposed.

No do-overs.

The MI and FL votes have taken place...anyone could have remained on the ballot...Hillary was smart to do it. Barrack should have done it in both states. The delegates already tallied, even if "unofficial" should count regardless of what the DNC said ahead of time. Why do you think anyone in MI and FL bothered to vote? To not have it count? Come on people, no recount, no hanging chads, and no more whining...let what the people in MI and FL have already done count for something. Oh, and Bush sucks...duh?

Congressman Jackson, did you REALLY just post here?

shame on you that don't think the voters of Michigan and Florida deserve the say...Didn't we see enough of that with Bush...shame, shame, shame.

It's kinda funny you get 2 republicans, 1 who endorsed McBush, now want a sham of votes cast to count after they SIGNED off on the rules themselves. Talk about sniff test. This stinks and remember this when McBush chooses Foley er I mean Crist as a running mate.

“The right to vote is at the very foundation of our democracy.

Then why did they sign off on it and then change the rules?

What's 20 million or so wasted in each state between friend right.

Hey Hillary, if ya can't win it, steal it!!!

Sigh...apparently Hillary wants to lie, cheat and steal her way into the presidency.

She and every other Democrat knows what the rules were in this DNC ruling, knew it beforehand and lived with it until the unanticipated Obama surge.

So IF these delegates want to be seated, it had better be after a scheduled election, and BOTH candidates get to work the states, or this will be the most blatant "dirty trick" worth of a Richard Nixon election.

And if she does pull this off, I'll be throwing my vote AND recruiting efforts, posting signs etc towards John McCain because I would not reward her with the office of the president by these old tricks.

It's a shame but I think it's correct for Obama's campaign group to get in the mud and fight back. And when he's trashed Hillary (won't be hard to do either) don't be surprised to see her passed over for the VP spot. He can't very well pull her back onto the bandwagon after trashing her the way he'll have to to counter her gutter politics.

Where was Charlie Crist in 2000 when his predesessor Jeb Bush was busy blaming the voters and refusing to enforce Florida's very clear election laws that required that the uncounted votes be counted? Our country wouldn't be in the disaster it's in now had Florida's election laws been enforced. All of the uncounted votes would've been counted and Al Gore would've been in the White House while Bush would've been back in Texas where we the people had voted for him to be.

I have to say, I get a big kick out of all you Obamamaniacs who are making such a big deal out of the Clinton's "dirty tricks". Like this is anything new. None of you had any problems with it when Bubba was in charge!

If a state pays for the election to take place, then the state should determine when the election will occur. If the DNC/RNC wish to dictate election dates, then they should pay for their own election.

I voted in Michigan. It's not my fault there are stupid people running Michigan, at least they aren't involved in corruption. Obama and Edwards choose to remove their names. They would fall under uncommitted to give them that share of delegates. Unless the DNC wants to pay for another primary election.

To anyone wanting to seat the Florida and Michigan delegates without a do over. It would be totally unfair to Obama especially since his name did not even appear on the ballot in Michigan.

The Clintons are complete and utter scumbags, of the worst order.

And yeah, I had a LOT of trouble with it when Bubba was in charge - considering that I'm a libertarian conservative. My choice was Ron Paul, but as an old white man, he was all too easy for the MSM to destroy. I have no use for McCain, and that leaves Obama as the only realistic choice, for those of us who are tired of the way things currently are in America.

I really do not have words to describe how much I despise the Clintons. They believe they are ENTITLED to power because they're some sort of superior beings. (Just watch how they act if you don't believe this.) They'll break any and every rule there is, they have no shame and no decency. They serve the ultra-wealthy just like Bush does.

If she wins, we're doomed. Guaranteed.

I have never heard about changing the rules during or after the game. What a "democratic" mess...
However, if it is justified, the game could be repeated at the cost of those who messed up.

The DNC and RNC have too much power. They should not be allowed to determine whose vote counts and whose does not. States are allowed to determine their own election laws so why are they not allowed to determine when they hold their elections.

The time has come to end the monopoly New Hampshire and Iowa have on determining the outcome of presidential primaries. What does it say when we have candidates dropping out of the race after less then 1% of American citizens have voted.

On the issue of Florida and Michigan, I believe that Florida has a better argument then Michigan to get its delegates seated considering that the Florida democratic party ran a full ticket primary and none of the candidates campaigned there unlike Michigan where only one candidate was on the ballot. However, as JP pointed out Edwards and Obama chose to remove their names from the ballot.

So I say seat them all and let the people's voices be heard.

That's right, let's just go ahead and seat delegates 'won' in lopsided contests where major candidates stayed OFF THE BALLOT because they were playing by the established rules. FL and MI should hold repeat primaries in June as Howard Dean advises. That is the only path to fairness that will allow the voters' wishes to be considered.

Help me understand this:
To all those that think the votes should "count" in MI: Obama and Edwards removed their names with the understanding that the delegates wouldn't be seated. HOW IS THIS A FAIR AND LEGAL VOTE? DO YOU THINK THEY "VOLUNTARILY" REMOVED THEIR NAMES JUST BECAUSE? No. They wanted to make a statement, part of which is ABIDE BY THE RULES. And now that Clinton needs these delgates, so she's willing to do what ever she can get them counted. This is back handed and it makes my stomach turn. If I still lived in Michigan, I'd be upset that the MI Dem Party and their fabulous governor really screwed me out of having a fair chance to FULLY assess the candidates (since they didn't spend much time there - because the DNC already penalized the electon!)and is continuing to do so.
Clinton and her campaign is conniving and wrong. Despite the fact that I have always voted Democrat, I will have a very hard time doing so if she's my choice. Way to divide the party WITHIN itself, Clinton. Granholm, you really blew it.

Quote"

Shannon Lynn, you are a LIAR. Hillary has received more money from Insurance companies than any other candidate. Don't take my word for it, check it out yourself:

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/select.asp?Ind=F09
"

And let's not forget that Hillary has taken nearly TWICE the amount of money from REGISTERED LOBBYISTS than any other candidate. Solutions for tomorrow? Hardly! More like a return to the past.

Posted by: Gonzo | March 5, 2008 5:27 PM

No kidding Gonzo. As far as Michigan goes it was more like a Cuban election than one that represents the USA. A caucus is a possibility. Less than 50% chance that Michigan will do it over.

The time has come to end the monopoly New Hampshire and Iowa have on determining the outcome of presidential primaries.
Posted by: Brad | March 6, 2008 10:45 AM

Your arguement is a bit confusing. You say end the early primaries and caucuses, yet because FL and MI change the rules and move theirs up it's OK?
Why don't we start the process for 2012 now. Rules are the rules...they signed off on them...I don't understand what the problem is here.

Lets all cry for Obama, boo hoo. It's his own fault, along with the other candidates, who didn't leave their name on the ballot in Michigan. This falls under the CYA category just in case what is being discussed now were to happen

And for all of you misinformed people, Hillary DID NOT campaign in Florida and now word is coming out that Obama DID and he still got beat badly!!

Logic Prisoner, Hillary might have millions of registered lobbyists donating to her and still be beaten in the total by Obama because we'll never know who he's selling his office to since Obama skirts campaign finance law by taking money from lobbyists wives and business partners rather than from the registered lobbyists themselves.

The charlatan then has the gall to see "we don't take lobbyist money." Absolute BS. The only difference between Hillary's and Obama's lobbyists is Hillary follows the law and doesn't lie about hers.

And for all of you misinformed people, Hillary DID NOT campaign in Florida
Posted by: Darrin | March 6, 2008 11:50 AM

This really isn't about Obama or Hillary. This about the voters. Again, if they signed off on this 11/2 years ago and change the rules, what is the problem?

Lets all cry for Obama, boo hoo. It's his own fault, along with the other candidates, who didn't leave their name on the ballot in Michigan.

Posted by: Darrin | March 6, 2008 11:50 AM

Keep hitting the crack pipe Darrin. Your WAY out there.

"Hillary Clinton won big victories Tuesday night in Ohio, Texas and Rhode Island. But she's now even further behind in the race for the Democratic nomination. How could that be? Math. It's relentless.

To beat Barack Obama among pledged delegates, Clinton now needs even bigger margins in the 12 remaining primaries than she needed when I ran the numbers on Monday—an average of 23 points, which is more than double what she received in Ohio.

Superdelegates won't help Clinton if she cannot erase Obama's lead among pledged delegates, which now stands at roughly 134. Caucus results from Texas aren't complete, but Clinton will probably net about 10 delegates out of March 4. That's 10 down, 134 to go. Good luck."

http://www.newsweek.com/id/119010

Help me understand this:
To all those that think the votes should "count" in MI: Obama and Edwards removed their names with the understanding that the delegates wouldn't be seated. HOW IS THIS A FAIR AND LEGAL VOTE? DO YOU THINK THEY "VOLUNTARILY" REMOVED THEIR NAMES JUST BECAUSE? No. They wanted to make a statement, part of which is ABIDE BY THE RULES. And now that Clinton needs these delgates, so she's willing to do what ever she can get them counted. This is back handed and it makes my stomach turn. If I still lived in Michigan, I'd be upset that the MI Dem Party and their fabulous governor really screwed me out of having a fair chance to FULLY assess the candidates (since they didn't spend much time there - because the DNC already penalized the electon!)and is continuing to do so.
Clinton and her campaign is conniving and wrong. Despite the fact that I have always voted Democrat, I will have a very hard time doing so if she's my choice. Way to divide the party WITHIN itself, Clinton. Granholm, you really blew it.

Posted by: FORMER Michigan Resident | March 6, 2008 10:58 AM

For real FORMER. Hillary is queen of division, as in divisive. To bad she can't add. Judging by the comments her supporters post I'd say allot of then can't either. Yep, they opened the republican trailor parks in Ohio the other day and had them come out and vote for Hillary. Know your enemy Democrats. Even if it is the enemy within. a.k.a. HC

http://inkslwc.wordpress.com/2008/03/01/limbaugh-tells-texas-ohio-republicans-to-vote-for-clinton/

IMHO, this is one of the reasons why people get fed up and don't vote. All that matters is who the delegates vote for. It doesn't matter what the voters say or want. If this were a true democracy, ALL elected officials in this country would be determined by what the people themselves voted, not delegates or super delegates.

"WHAT" it is not Hillary that is fighting for Florida and Michigan to be counted, it is the govenors and the people of the states. Don't you people ever read what is going on before you comment?

Ken, I agree totally.

I can understand the MI gov. asking that deligates from her state be places in the pot, but Charlie Crist the FL gov. he still takes his directioin from the Bush leaugers. Fl went 5-1 for Hillary.

Hey patti, did you see Hillary coming out of the meeting on FL and MI in Washington DC yesterday, neither did I. Maybe she was there in spirit, maybe not, so how can she be pushing the re-vote. Give me a break.

Carl, Did you mean McCain and Hussein?

Gee Realty, isn't that the exact reason Hussein doesn't want the FL and MI deligates seated. Oops because he lost.

To by the math for Hill, etc. Easy there you are about to bust an artery, you started getting a little frantic there.

Has anybody noticed that there are super delegates who had pledged to Clinton but now switch their support to Obama, but not the other way around? Does it make you wonder why??

After reading the posts here, I think nearly everyone has missed the point. It is the voters who should pick their party's nominee - not the elite DNC chairpeople. Who are they to determine whether MI or FL get to vote first or last? This whole ridiculous nomination process loses sight of the fact that people pick candidates and winners - not the DNC or RNC or other power brokers!

Oops because he lost.

Posted by: RFB | March 6, 2008 1:40 PM

Oops...because there was no campaigning. The delegates don't count. They broke their agreement on when to hold the primary. What part of that don't you get? Why would a candidate campaign in a state where their vote doesn't count. The real issue is the voters not the candidates. I would settle for either candidate...I just put Hussein in there for dimwits who use it to make some nonsensical point. Know anyone like that?

The Trib is losing major cool points with me on these comments. Your disclaimer at the end of the posts is meaningless. If you're screening for obscenity and over-the-top personal attacks you need to put your glasses back on and read again.

Why I won’t vote for Sen. Clinton.
1)Sen. Clinton voted for a war without reading the National Intelligence Estimate because she would rather have been briefed. So in the most important decision in her life she, to make an analogy, she watched the movie instead of reading the book. Is this a policy wonk? If she would make that decision without research I guess she would listen to a lobbyist instead of the evidence too.
2)She hasn’t released her taxes since she left the White House, but won’t release them until after or on April 15th?
3)She is claiming she has experience from the White House, but won’t release both her travel itinerary OR her papers.
4)She claims the Bush White House won’t release them, but do you really think, in an election year, Bush would pass up the chance to open her papers to scrutiny?
5)Sen. Clinton claims to have executive experience from Arkansas, but she worked at a law firm and served on the board of Wal-Mart. So was she in the State House or not? If she was, lets just say if you make her a College Quarterback the NCAA would investigate?
6)When running for President Mr. Clinton released all his taxes, except ’79 and ’80, when they made a 10,000% profit on cattle futures. In other words if they invested $1,000 they got Ten MILLION Dollars. Why can’t we see those records?
7)Sen. Clinton claims national security experience, but when she was First Lady she didn’t have high-level security access.
8)She claimed to help bring peace talks, but wasn’t at Camp David. She claims to have helped in the Kosovo crisis, but she was on a plane with celebrities.

With so much to hide, how are you vetted. I don't care who you are, women, white, black, Samoan, when your hiding something I don't trust you!!

They can be seated when they have a fair campaign and election solution for BOTH candidates. They cannot be seated by results of a Soviet-style election as in Michigan where only one name was on the ballot.

I live in Michigan, so I will only speak about the situation in Michigan. The DNC did not disenfranchise anybody; that was done by the arrogant leaders and governor of the Democratic party in Michigan. In this life there are rules and like it or not, if you don't follow the rules, then you pay the consequences. Let us stand tall and show our CHILDREN and the rest of the world that the DEMOCRATS stand for something. We stand for order, honesty, and following the rules. The leaders in Michigan didn't care about how the party would look or what problems this may cause; they were only concerned with "ME". If the DNC backs down and seats these delegates, I will vote for the Republicans in November and will raise a camoaign to get all Independent voters to do likewise. The Democrats are espousing CHANGE, CHANGE, CHANGE. If you really mean what you say then let's show the nation that we are not playing the old games anymore; the heads of the National Democratic Party established the rules and announced the consequences of breaking those rules. The Delegates must not be seateds.

I voted in the Florida primary for Senator Obama; however, I would not feel disenfranchised if the delegates were not seated. Why? I know of several people who chose to not vote because all they kept on hearing was that the delegates would not be seated. Neither Senator Obama or Senator Clinton campaigned in Florida and due to this Hillary was able to capture many votes due based solely on name recognition. Yet, I can guarantee you, had Senator Obama campaigned here he would've pulled in many more votes. I say allow them to campaign and hold another primary in Florida. This way the delegates can be allocated as per the real intent of the people. Senator Clinton is shameless in signing a pledge and agreeing to the DNC rules to not count the delegates and then turning around and saying she doesn't want to disenfranchise the voters of Florida. She didn't seem to care much about the voters in many states when she set out on her "insult 40 states" campaign and even chose to not even campaign there. Shame on you Hillary Clinton!

Hillary, Hillary, always gaming things, always hustling, always spinning. What a great nominee you will make. Hello, President McCain.

Read that LA Times column today, please. Drop out and do us all a favor. I know you won't.

Thanks Hillary, thanks a lot.

"What the voters of Michigan and Florida should do? Say "Count our votes and seat our delegates from our primaries or we will sit it out in November!"

I'm in Michigan, and I say the votes don't count. This state f'ed us over, too bad... no do overs and no crying in politics.

Nor do I intend to "sit it out" in November.

sweet deal for Hillary, wait until the election results are in, then argue that the delegates should be seated. wouldn't it be great if all elections could be run that way? i say no. if she wanted MI and FL to count, the time to speak up was BEFORE they voted. a lot of dem voters probably stayed home anyway, knowing that their vote wouldn't count. to say now that their state counts, after they were tricked into staying home, would be grossly unfair.

Michigan and Florida should boycot the November election or vote for McCain as punishment to the DNC.

The democrats have a GENIUS for doing the exact wrong thing at the exact wrong time, except this time they are DEMANDING IN ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS that they be allowed to get with it. And then if this silly little ploy works they will probably DEMAND an apology.

And they expect us to take them seriously?