Let's see if the Swamp osters can comment on the message, not the messenger.

If the message is an accurate reporting of the facts, we, as ameicans, should be ashamed of our leadership for allowing this to happen.

"According to an article in today's New York Times, the U.S. Justice Department issued the authorization under Atty. Gen. Alberto Gonzales just months after publicly declaring torture "abhorent" in December 2004.

The second opinion, kept secret, provided explicit authorization to barrage terror suspects with a combination of painful physical and psychological tactics, including head-slapping, simulated drowning and frigid temperatures, according to the New York Times.

The Times reported that Gonzales approved authorization of "combined effects" over the objections of Deputy Atty. Gen. James Comey. Comey told colleagues the department at the time would be "ashamed" if the memorandum eventually became public, according to the Times."

And people like Brucey, JD, Jimmy D and Jerry White consider this human reject Gonzales a hero????

We really shouldn't torture people.

The other day Dana Perino (White house spokeswoman) was deriding Burma for locking people away without council and torturing people. The obvious question is, "If you can do it, why can't we?"

We used to have at least the appearance of moral high ground. No longer. We took the gloves off, they shrank, and now they no longer fit.

Atty. Gen. Alberto Gonzales just months after publicly declaring torture "abhorent" in December 2004.

Unless of course you need something signed and the signee is in the hospital.

This is clear-cut.

Anonymous, unnamed "officials" allegedly tell moveon.org's buddy, the NY Times, that the U.S. is engaged in what the Times terms "torture".

Cynics might sorta distrust what unnamed people are quoted on in the Times. Because it's impossible to check on the truthfulness, the motives, or even the sanity, of unnamed people. Or whetehr they were in any position to know about anything. But this is the NY Times--and everyone knows how unbiased they are...

And by amazing coincidence, "shortly after the article is published", the Boy Blunder's press office releases an obviously long-prepared statement. Could it just possibly be that the NY Times tipped off the Boy Blunder that this story was going to run?

This stinks, all right. It stinks of yet another press hatchet job on the Bush administration.

Head slapping?!?!?!? Ooooohhh, so mean!! Cold temperatures?!?!?!?!? Really, really mean!!!

Flying planes into building = good.
Chopping innocents heads off = good.
Blowing up cities with dirty bombs, killling tens of thousands = good.

Hey, but at least we have our principles left.

I've been ashamed of the mis-administration since the invasion of Iraq, and even before that. What liars, crooks, and losers. The height of evil hypocisy knows no bounds for these guys. They are very quickly starting to become the moral equivalent of concentration camp guards.

Bruce:

Once again your favotite - attack the messenger, not the message.

Since when is James Comey and "unnamed official"?? Have you not read ANY of his testimony the past few days to Congress?

It stinks, all right - it stinks that we had someone like Alberto Gonzalez making legal policy despite what the Justice Department said.

Yet another example of Bush's fine leadership. His entire administration should be tried and then punsihed according to the new "laws" they have forced through.

Why isn't Alberto Gonzales in jail?

We, as a nation, could gain so much credibility in the world by jailing those in the Washington who have dishonored this nation.

Gonzo would be just a start.

Johnny D,
You finally get it. If we don't have principles against torture then we are just like our enemies. Animals. And those things you said are good. They are not and the leadership who planned 9/11 should be captured or killed. But you want to preserve Bin Laden's life so he can distribute a video message every 6 months. Could Bin Laden have a better friend than Musharraf and Johnny D?

This stinks, all right. It stinks of yet another press hatchet job on the Bush administration.

Posted by: Bruce | October 4, 2007 11:16 AM

Bruce,
This article was months in the making so I'm sure many members of Congress got whiff of it coming down the pipeline. I'm sure the Bush Administration also knew it was coming because they approved the methods and they are tapping journalists phones in the true spirit of Fascism.

"BobinAtl", you're reading skills need a refresher course. While Comey was named in the article, he was quoted on points other than the key allegation. The key allegation was made by, and I quote, "officials".

Actually, quoting unnamed "officials" is fun. It allows someone to make any kind of allegation, and nobody can check up on the truth of what you allege. In that spirit, I will report that unnamed Justice Department officials told me that Senator Obama, "BobinAtl", and the ghost of Harry Truman, all approved of the interrogation memo.

"If the message is an accurate reporting of the facts, we, as ameicans, should be ashamed of our leadership for allowing this to happen.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 4, 2007 10:54 AM"

Many of us posters in the Swamp have been ashamed of the White House and Congress since 2001.

I felt such utter shame and disgust when I read the article, just one more example of a president who is completely immoral and without any conscience. This depraved and venal man has dragged the country into the gutter, he has demeaned the office, he has squandered our dignity. He and his entire administration should be brought to justice.

Far from being ashamed, I am in full support of such tactics. We are dealing with a force that will nuke us if they can. We need to be stronger and more aggressive, not always pussyfooting around and apologizing for being tough where it is required.

Johnny D, you make a good point. Planes crashing into buildings, chopping heads off, blowing up cities with dirty bombs are all bad but if that is your argument what are we doing in Iraq? Shouldn't we be invading Saudi Arabia? Since that's is where Bin Ladin and the rest of the terrorist are from and receive support. I don't think you understand what the actual discussion of this thread is...it's about use of torture by Americans.

Use whatever means required to extract information that can save American lives. The rest of the world can kiss my American butt!!!!!

You either believe we have people who want to kill large numbers of Americans or you don't.

If you do, then you either want to do everything you can to find out the information necessary or not.

If you don't want to find this out, then just sit down with the terrorists and have a cup of coffee ask them nicely. Then, you may want to send them on their way.

However, if you want to get information that will save the lives of thousands, it might be a good idea to employ more effective interrogation tactics. This may be represented as terror, but had they given us the information prior to the utilization of the methods being employed, the methods would not have been used.

I say do what needs to be done to get the information ... YES ... even if it means putting dirty panties on their heads if necessary!

We as a country are better than that or should be better than to allow or support torture.
I do not want our soldiers tortured with the world pointing at us for torture we support

Additionally, If torture is needed to save the country(ie jack bower of 24) Then the individual should be punished.(there is always a presidential pardon if he saved the country)

The country should not support torture in any method

If you do not think these methods and the others in use are torture -- volunteer to undergo them. It will change your opinion faster than any reasonable words.

John D, you obviously love the Republican party more than you love America! You blindly goosestep to your furor's whims, ignoring the destruction your party has strewn across America's landscape.

Fact is torture is UNAMERICAN! No matter what anyone does to us! We're AMERICA DAMNIT!!! Aren't we supposed to be better than the terrorists, not mimicking them?

Ron Paul gets the most donation from military members, even more than Obama. I laud Obama's stand on torture, but Ron Paul actually served in the USAF and knows what it's like to serve this country from the field.

This country is soooo doomed. Nobody realizes how good we really have it here. I frankly don't want to know what the government does to keep us all safe. What all you libs don't understand is that the scum that they are interogating WANT TO KILL US ALL, they are not petty criminals. You libs better start learning Chinese or memorize the Koran, because if you guys get in power we are all doomed.

Obama will give America away to the terrorist if he is elected. American??? Not hardly.
Wimpy Liberal... exactly.
OOOO let's don't hurt our enimies. That's just not right is it?
Bah!!!!!
Elect him and you'll get what you deserve... morons.

The quote says it all. "Those who sacrafice liberty for security deserve neither".

Tortue is not an effective tactic for getting information. In point of fact Omar Nasiri a mooraccan spy details the procedure captured jihadists use during torture in his book, "Inside the Jihad: My Life with Al Qaeda, A Spy's Story" In his book he tells how the U.S. trained the muhadjine fighters to tell believable lies to the enemy if they were ever captured and tortured. They used this against us when we captured one of their senior leaders and he indicated falsley that Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein were in fact woring together. Of course we know now that this wasn't true, but at the time of our torturing him we believed every word. Why? we taught them to do this, why couldn't we see our own trick being played?

When it's all said and done, tortue is not the best way to extract useful information out of an enemy. In fact it may just be the worst possible way, as it's bad publicity hurts our cause just as much as the bad intel it provides.

Headslapping....frigid temperatures....oh my. So when parents rap their kids upside the head for doing something stupid they can now be tried under federal court jurisdiction for "torture"....or how about anyone that lives above Kansas sues the government because of "frigid temperatures"...oops forgot about global warming, nevermind.

You want to support our troops, take their gloves off and stop whining about every little thing. I bet you wouldn't have a problem with these tactics if they saved your a$$ or one of your loved ones from the next attack

Brucey:

Have you heard what Comey has said, both before Congress and in the past?? How Gonzales wanted to overrule Ashcroft on the Terrorist Act while he was in critical condition in a hospital room?? And you don't think he (Gonzales) was capable of what the Times says here??

The only reason we do not know more about Gonzalez's idea of "justice" is because he ran away before he had to testify under oath to Congress.

From some of the comments above it appears that some people just can't get past 9/11. The attack was indeed reprehensible both from the loss of life and from the property damage perspective but it wasn't the end of the world. NAtural disasters cost more and traffic on average kills more every two weeks or so.

America used to be a country to be admired for its freedoms and generosity. Today it looks like any other nation trying to gain hegemony over others. The on-going beating of the war drums,the constant efforts to instill fear in the population and the duplicity of the people in relinquishing their civil rights is to say the very least a sad sad state of affairs.
The experts say torture doesn't work so why is it being advocated and condoned?

People who believe that Torture is an acceptable practice have been watching too much "24". There is no evidence that ANY information gathered is good.

If we believe that it is any way acceptable for us to torture our "enemies" then we are saying it is acceptable for our enemies to torture our soldiers.

The bottom line is that Torture is wrong and just as importantly IT DOESN'T WORK.

About time to bring Gonzo, Cheney, et. al. up on war crimes charges. Never in my lifetime could I imagine a bigger failure than Bush and his criminal cronies have been. Obama is correct. Torture produces bad information. And stolen elections produce terrible presidents.

I wonder how many of you condone torture would be so quick to say it if this had come from the other end, namely that of our enemies. If it was American soilders being tortured, would you then still support the use of it. Would you think to yourselves "Well of course, all is fair in war and even our enemy must do whatever it takes to get the job done."? Or would you think "Barbarians!"?
We must always stop to remember that there are two sides to every coin.

Perhaps the "Conservatives" would understand this topic if they listened to one of their own...

"Obviously, to defeat our enemies we need intelligence, but intelligence that is reliable. We should not torture or treat inhumanely terrorists we have captured. The abuse of prisoners harms, not helps, our war effort. In my experience, abuse of prisoners often produces bad intelligence because under torture a person will say anything he thinks his captors want to hear-whether it is true or false-if he believes it will relieve his suffering. I was once physically coerced to provide my enemies with the names of the members of my flight squadron, information that had little if any value to my enemies as actionable intelligence. But I did not refuse, or repeat my insistence that I was required under the Geneva Conventions to provide my captors only with my name, rank and serial number. Instead, I gave them the names of the Green Bay Packers' offensive line, knowing that providing them false information was sufficient to suspend the abuse. It seems probable to me that the terrorists we interrogate under less than humane standards of treatment are also likely to resort to deceptive answers that are perhaps less provably false than that which I once offered.

Sen. John McCain
Newsweek Nov-2005

Who should we believe about the value of Intelligence gathered through torture in a time of war? A decorated vetran with first hand experience or a "Commander Guy" who spent his war years keeping the skies of Texas clear of enemy aircraft?

JV, Aubrey, Johnny D, and the rest of the zombie cohorts believe John McCain deserved to be tortured. After all he was the enemy to North Vietnam and he had information that could've saved North Vietnamese lives.

The closest Bush ever came to Waterboarding was playing "Drink or Drown" at a Yale kegger party.

Cheney went to a similar party but he got a deferment from the game... guess he had "other priorities"

Have most of you forgot about what happened on Sept. 11th? Afghanistan was a retaliation for sept 11th, just like the bombing of Japan was a retaliation of Pearl Harbor. Also everyone of us knows Saddam was a brutal dictator that needed to be removed from his position. I may not agree with the way is was done but it had to be done.

Hey, but at least we have our principles left. - Johnny D

I'll just quote Se. Mc Cain again. i think he answers this question much better than anyone else can.

"Many of my comrades were subjected to very cruel, very inhumane and degrading treatment, a few of them unto death. But every one of us-every single one of us-knew and took great strength from the belief that we were different from our enemies, that we were better than them, that we, if the roles were reversed, would not disgrace ourselves by committing or approving such mistreatment of them. That faith was indispensable not only to our survival, but to our attempts to return home with honor. For without our honor, our homecoming would have had little value to us."

JV,

One problem with your whole theory there, which the media tends to ignore: TORTURE DOESN'T ACTUALLY WORK. This has been proven. A tortured individual will tell you what you want to hear to make the pain stop.

This isn't a matter of squishy liberalism, though it is clear that torture is expressly forbidden by the Constitution and the Geneva Conventions. More importantly than that is going with what works, and torture doesn't work.

You've been watching WAY TOO MUCH 24!!

WOW!

First Barak comes out against mercenaries getting drunk and shooting civillians...

Then he condemns torture...

This is courage and bold decisiveness that says "presidential" to me! I mean, nobody else has said these things... this makes him stand apart, right?

!BOGAMA!

President Bush ordered the slaughter of 100,000 personal pets and animals following Katrina so that residents would have much less motivation to return to the area and possibly resettle. 100's have testified that Blackwater, military, and sheriff's shot and killed dogs and life long companions while they were still in the arms of the owners. The police ran out of bullets and shotgun shells and had to have them shipped in from surrounding States. Everything can be heard and seen from transcripts at any time from Aug 28th-Setp18th 2005. (Bush has violently refused transparency because it would be "too embarrassing" for the White House) Ordering US military to kill US civilians, pets and property, on US soil, is an immediate impeachable offense. There has never been ONE SINGLE media report on the crimes ordered by Bush during this time period for fear of retribution. Torture is so far down the list of crimes carried out and ordered by this administration.....though it is essential to contiune to talk about it since NOTHING can be done and it will NEVER harm the President.....even though he says the US does not toture. What about Bush's drug arrest for cocaine trafficing in 1985 at the Miami International Airport with his brother Jeb? What about Bush's friend Victor Ashe whom he had sexual relations with throughout college at 2 different all male schools when they were both cheerleaders and roomates?

Bush is the "Furur"? Our military "concentration camp guards"? As if they do this for some sadistic gratification. Boy, what's up America? What a weak and whiny country we have become. What a sad ending. Goal by the left accomplished. Oh, by the way, torture is "severe" pain physically or mentally. Keyword "severe".

A little too late OBAMA!

The Senate just signed off on The administrations PL110-55 SIX MONTH JUDICIAL RETRO REPRIEVE TO THE CONSTITUTION.

This is an impeachable offense and I'm sure SWIFT BOAT VETERANS are going to have their on interpretation of the constitution EXPELLED TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC as though it really doesn't say that, but UNDER EXECUTIVE ORDER, we will never know. OH YEA, AND THE FBI IS NOW INVESTIGATING IT, SO WE CAN'T TALK ABOUT IT AS IT IS AN ONGOING INVESTIGATION. SO GET IN LINE WITH THE REST OF THE HABEAUS CORPUS LOVING COUNTRIES.

But in retrospect, at least a Senator made public comment.

SO HERE'S DANA!

oOOOOOOOHH yOU BLANKETY BLANK, BLANK, BLANK. HOW DARE YOU CROSS THE DECIDER. HE'S LISTENING, HE KNEW WHAT YOU WERE GOING TO SAY!

Obama will give America away to the terrorist if he is elected. American??? Not hardly.
Wimpy Liberal... exactly.
OOOO let's don't hurt our enimies. That's just not right is it?
Bah!!!!!
Elect him and you'll get what you deserve... morons.

Posted by: Aubrey | October 4, 2007 12:09 PM

Wow, that was an impressive rant, Lil Johnny D'estructo!

Those who recall the way American soldiers were tortured by the Japanese during World War II and the reaction of American troops would realize that torture of any sort is a zero sum game at best. Many Marine units stopped taking prisoners after they saw how their fellow Marines had been treated at the hands of their Japanese captors. It's also informative that the British intelligence officer who successfully broke Klaus Fuchs, the nuclear spy, did not employ any such tactics.

Doesn't it feel great to be a bully and flex our muscles? Yeah!!!

Problem is, it doesn't work. John McCain has told about his experience with torture, he said whatever had had to say to survive, not the truth, and not accurate information. That's what the CIA has discovered, as reported in the NYTimes article. Being a bully just creates resentment and backlash. It justifies all the horrible things one has heard that causes a person to be a terrorist. However, talk with them, show them kindness, show them their opinion is wrong, use the prisoner's natural tendency to sympathize with the captor.

A bigger picture, even more horrific than the torture that it justified, is an administration that sees itself above the laws and rewrites and reinterprets the laws according to it's own needs, justified or not.

It is only a short step for this to be unleashed on Americans who oppose the current Adminstration. Already, people loose their jobs, receive death threats. They can be termed military combatants and held without trial. This operates against the Constitution, against laws passed by the US Congress.

Unlawful behavior should be prosecuted, whether or not it was justified by the Justice Department.

Members of Congress, we are watching.

And Bush is fighting children's health care tooth and nail.

This adminsitration isn't 'like' a monster, it is a monster.

This is a horror.

First Barak comes out against mercenaries getting drunk and shooting civillians...

Then he condemns torture...

This is courage and bold decisiveness that says "presidential" to me! I mean, nobody else has said these things... this makes him stand apart, right?

!BOGAMA!

Posted by: YAWN! | October 4, 2007 12:42 PM

It certainly makes him stand out from the current Republican President and the Current Republican 2008 Presidential candidate... both who are pro-torture and pro "privatization" of everything, including our military (i.e. pro-mercenary).

Better wake up. As sad as it is, Barack clearly denouncing torture and the hiring of mercenaries DOES make him stand out (I can't believe we've come to this point in our country).

Lets see if I have my choice of having my head slapped hard or being blown up in a building while at work I will take option A. Listen if they have the right man I find nothing wrong with using these described pursausive measures. If you had Bin Laden would you not agree to do this to extract as much info as possible.

Don't you whiney libs know that torture is only evil when Forners do it?

When we do it, it's OK because we're Americans. Duh.

You are missing the point Carl L. Slapping someone in the back of the head and cutting someones ear off are 2 majorly different things. THe torture McCain is speaking of is 100X worse then what these TERRORISTS have been subjected to. Get a grip on reality and stop making such a huge jump from a head slap to death by torture.

Well as for attacks on the "unnamed sources" well 1. there have been some out spoken named sources. 2. so you are saying deepthroat was wrong about watergate and a proper investigation should not have been done after such 'unnamed sources' yak!

Vinny, I wish I was the one who "doesn't get it".

The sad truth is that we have absolutely no idea what our "detainees" have been subjected to.

The administration said they abhorred torture and then condoned it.

They ran/run secret prisons (which the President has admitted) in other countries so as not to be bound by US law.

Why do you think we continue to keep people in Cuba? Because no one can see or hear what we really do.

p.s. I hope you get that “slap in the head” you voted for. I hope it happens after you experience an “Extraordinary rendition” courtesy of the white house. As you sit at some Black Site prison in a foreign country which uses a more liberal definition of “slap in the back of the head”. You can occupy your time by wondering if you will ever have the opportunity to speak to a lawyer or at least face the evidence against you. As the years roll by you might not think it is such an easy choice.

Vinny, I wish I was the one who "doesn't get it".

The sad truth is that we have absolutely no idea what our "detainees" have been subjected to.

The administration said they abhorred torture and then condoned it.

They ran/run secret prisons (which the President has admitted) in other countries so as not to be bound by US law.

Why do you think we continue to keep people in Cuba? Because no one can see or hear what we really do.

p.s. I hope you get that “slap in the head” you voted for. I hope it happens after you experience an “Extraordinary rendition” courtesy of the white house. As you sit at some Black Site prison in a foreign country which uses a more liberal definition of “slap in the back of the head”. You can occupy your time by wondering if you will ever have the opportunity to speak to a lawyer or at least face the evidence against you. As the years roll by you might not think it is such an easy choice.

I can't agree with those of you who would have us act like the terrorists. Even if you disregard the fact that the information you get is often false, or that it turns people against us, torture is just plain wrong.

Janet, dear, John McCain was not a terrorist and represented a legitimate country and government. The terrorists do not represent a legit country nor government.

To the one who said no evidence torturing a terrorist netted good intel, well that is wrong. The torture of Kaleil Sheik MOhammed (spelling may be wrong) did net good intel.

Folks, I do not believe torture should be used all the time or in most circumstances, and there needs to be some limits on what is allowed and not allowed. But there are times where it may be necessary.

Tortured subjects do not provide accurate information. They will do anything to make the pain stop. Therefore, information gathered from torture is likely to be misleading and inaccurate.

You foaming-at-the-mouth torture advocates really need to turn off the Rush Limbaugh and "24" and start doing a little research for yourself.

Torture doesn't work. End of story.

What do we accomplish if we are willing to not stand by our principles as Americans? Will we really be any better than they are? We ultimately create more terrorists by doing things like this, instead of the desired effect - less. I for one think that America stands for something great. I will never forget the seathing anger I saw in a Pakistani-American friend of mine when the facts about Abu-Graub (spelling?) came out. We had lost our moral standing in the world and he could no longer tell foreign friends about the pride he felt in becoming a US citizen. What a shame.

"We have met the enemy and he is us."

Pogo

Whoah, Johnny D!,
You lost me. If an Iranian agent has information about a plot to set off a dirty bomb in NYC you won't torture them because they represent "a legitimate country and government". You're not even making a consistant argument. You have ignorant arguments, but not consistant. My head hurts.

John D., Aubrey, JV and the rest of the folks who think torture is reliable, safe and fun…

I imagine you would approve of Police beating confessions out of suspected criminals. It’s really the same thing. They’re only doing it to make us all safe.

And if torture is a reliable method for getting the truth out of our enemies it should certainly work against criminals. Don’t you think?

We should allow the police to beat suspects until they confess or they provide us with the information we are looking for?

After all, if it is good enough for the Dept. of Justice it should be good enough for the Chicago P.D.

I can’t believe that either one would abuse such a power.

A question for all the torture supporters:

What other war crimes would you like to the the United States adopt as policy?

Targeting civilians?

The use of civilians as human shields?

Use of prisoners as slave labor?

Genocide?

Tell us how far you are willing to go if myou think it would help the US or if you think there should be amy limits at all.