Per Jon Kyl: “We’re beginning to see real, measurable progress in Iraq."

Well, yes, the key word in that sentence is "measurable." There is progress, as long as you change the way you measure things on the ground. Think about it, they say there have been fewer deaths since the surge, but then they aren't counting many of the deaths.

This is classic political b.s. If you don't like the numbers you're getting, stop counting.

The problem is that this administration is more concerned with the appearance of winning than actually winning. Maybe that's because they know they can't win and their goal is to shift the blame to the next President.

Frankly, this message isn't really extreme. It points the finger at government (the pentagon), not the soldiers.

And it targets the government for devaluing the life of our soldiers.

The average person gets this. We don't like our government anymore (Democrats or Republicans).

Well, Mr. James, I hate to burst your inside the Beltway bubble, but if you had read the USA Today/Gallup poll you would have seen this little statistic:

"A record 60% say the United States should set a timetable to withdraw forces and stick to that timetable regardless of what is going on in Iraq."

Move On is correct, and you and dimwit Kyl are wrong again.

From Michael Totten--who reports from Iraq:
"Some in the United States are unconvinced that Al Qaeda was really at the center of the conflict in Anbar. So I asked Colonel John Charlton how the Army knows Al Qaeda is really who they have been dealing with. He was supremely annoyed by the question.

“We know it’s Al Qaeda,” he said. There is no controversy whatsoever about this in Iraq. My question seemed to him as if it had come from another planet. “They self-identify as Al Qaeda. We didn’t give them that name. That’s what they call themselves. We have their propaganda CDs which have Al Qaeda written all over them.”

It’s not a dumb question, though, if a substantial number of Americans aren’t sure what’s going on in a bottomlessly complicated country eight or more times zones away. And not everyone who underestimated Al Qaeda’s presence is a fool.

I briefly met Army Reserve Lieutenant Colonel Eric Holmes from Dallas, Texas, while he was on his way home after volunteering to serve in Ramadi for six months. “I didn’t realize until I got here that the problem in Anbar Province was 100 percent Al Qaeda,” he said. “The old Baath Party insurgency here is completely finished. That war was won and Americans, including me, had no idea it even happened.”

For more that you'll never read about in the Tribune, see: http://www.michaeltotten.com/

Adopting Anne Coulter's over the top tactics will be inneffective in getting mainstream Americans to read the fine points of their argument. They seem to forget Coulter only appeals to the most depraved, lowest common denominators of society despite the mainstream media constantly giving her a platform to spew her venom, hate and invectives. Perhaps they could have considered showing one family preparing to lay to rest a loved one, a weeping wife left behind with a crying new child in one arm with overdue bills and a foreclosure notice in the other hand, both juxtaposed with President Bush deciding whether he wants to serve lobster or foi gras at his daughters wedding.

FRom the NY Times:

Mr. Bush, we fear, isn’t looking for the truth, only for ways to confound the public, scare Democrats into dropping their demands for a sound exit strategy, and prolong the war until he leaves office. At times, General Petraeus gives the disturbing impression that he, too, is more focused on the political game in Washington than the unfolding disaster in Iraq. That serves neither American nor Iraqi interests.

Mr. Bush, deeply unpopular with the American people, is counting on the general to restore credibility to his discredited Iraq policy. He frequently refers to the escalation of American forces last January as General Petraeus’s strategy — as if it were not his own creation. The situation echoes the way Mr. Bush made Colin Powell — another military man with an overly honed sense of a soldier’s duty — play frontman at the United Nations in 2003 to make the case that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Mr. Bush cannot once again subcontract his responsibility. This is his war.

General Petraeus has his own credibility problems. He overstepped in 2004 when he published an op-ed article in The Washington Post six weeks before the election. The general — then in charge of training and equipping Iraq’s security forces — rhapsodized about “tangible progress” and how the Iraqi forces were “developing steadily,” an assessment that may have swayed some voters but has long since proved to be untrue.

Petraeus has been a good partisan foot soldier for the GOP. We could argue that his assessments are suspect and his inevitable call for another Friedman Unit laughable.

More than 190,000 weapons have gone missing in Iraq since lap dog Patraeus took command. Where are they?? Who is accountable??
What is exit strategy?? Why is current Iraqi government so powerless, corrupt, and incompetent??
What about bin Laden, the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks?? Al Qaeda in Iraq?? Didn't exist before US occupation.

Remember, you are judged by the company you keep. And now, some leading Democrats choose to align themselves with the extreme left Move-On, Kooks Over-Stressed (KOS), and even Osama Bin Laden who baited the Democrats in his video for not doing enough after being elected to a majority in the Kookgress. Yet, the NY Times poll shows today that 68 percent of the American people trust the military more than Kookgress to end the war honorably. Man, and to think that I used to be a Democrat. Talk about being left by a party.

"Hi, I comment on the SWAMP blog, and I am smarter and more in tune to military and political decisions than both the top military commanders and top washington senators and congressman. I will not observe facts in postings, but will skim over said facts so that I can make a partisan comment regarding why I know better than the previous factual statements. If need be, I will completely move the topic in another direction rather than commenting on the facts at hand, if it does not fit my thought processes."
-Signed; most all backslappers on this board.

General Betray-Us is only the latest in the line of murdering monsters that are the hated Cheneybush Regime. Regime change needs to begin in Washington with total impeachment and imprisonment of Satancheney and his little dog, georgie, too. Satancheney's hobby is murder and mutilation & his dog, georgie's is licking up blood and practicing his smiles in the relfection of open wounds.

I guess, the good Dr. General has decided that he, too, wants to be part of the mayhem.

Well, I don't like the headline but the ad text contains entirely legitimate questions. If you say there are measurable gains, what are you measuring?

I am getting a little sick of the faux outrage from the like of Senator Kyl. Questioning Petreaus's report is not attacking our troops. We do not have a military dictatorship in this country. Despite Bush and Kyl's trying to say that we must support the Generals without question, the Constitution says we still have civilian control of the military. And if Bush really believed in supporting the Generals, too bad he wasn't listening to Shinseki and Zinni warnings before we started this fiasco.

Man, and to think that I used to be a Democrat. Talk about being left by a party.

Posted by: A. Hamilton | September 10, 2007 12:45 PM

Nice try goofball,
You do remember that your guys (GOP) let Bin-Laden get away AFTER W. claimed that he was going to get him "dead or alive" and then to top that off, he quit looking for him in Afganistan and started an uncalled for war in Iraq.

....and as far as Bin Laden being holed up in a cave goes, that must be one hell of a cave, he has a personal barber, a sound studio, a media room.... must be the most hi-tech "cave" since the Bat cave...hahaha!

Funny that Bin Laden pops up with a video everytime W. needs to scare the crap out of people.....and of course the usual dittohead Republic Party followers immeadiatly jump in line for him and get real scared.

I want the Left to keep all of this up. It will only help the GOP come 2008.

Thanks, Loony Left!

Apparently the Baltimore Sun doesn't mind the misleading reporting of Frank James. You apparently indicate that a majority of Americans don't still want an immediate withdrawal. So, let's look at the POLL YOU SITE:
When asked how much longer Americans would be willing to stay in Iraq:
54% say LESS THAN A YEAR!
22% say 1-2 years.
So 76% (more than 2/3s for Frank James who doesn't know how to read apparently) want us out in two years or less. A solid majority want us out in less than a year.
So, who are these American Frank James sites as being not part of MoveOn's message? They exsist, but they are a minority. The exact opposite of what Frank James says. Is he an idiot? Or a liar? Or a propagandhist? Obviously, his editor is an idiot for publishing this without checking out the very poll sited in the article.
A majority of Americans, also believe the Democrats are better suited to deal with the war than republicans. Why? Because they want a pullout. As the poll shows. A majority also believe Iraq IS NOT part of the war on terror.
So, we know while in charge of training Iraqi troops that Petruaus let several hundreds of thousands of weapons disappear (most likely into enemy hands.) Then why should we believe a word he speaks on behalf of the political arm of the white house?

As far as I'm concerned he already betrayed us.

EXACTLY what I expected from you clowns!!!!

Admit it...you had these comments typed up and ready to go the DAY the SURGE was first brought up.

Ooops I'm wrong....you had them ready on 9/12/01 and have been waiting for the right moment....

Remember UNITED WE STAND?...No didn't think so

Sing kum bye ya and buy the world a Coke....just hope some of your friends don't pack the cans with nails and explosives and blow you up while your shopping.

Better yet get a job and stop wasting your time typing your loon tunes dirvel !!!

Shorter BOB: Frazzle! Pink! Corn Nuts! Diaper! Huh?

Bruce,
You've done very well to adopt several new alter egos. I was concerned that Sierra and Damen sounded too, how should I put it...ethnic. Now I see you have added BOB and Matt M. to the mix. Way to go! We are far along in creating the impression that Republican ideas are relevant and not stale. See you at the Country Club on Wednesday! Perhaps we could play a match of tennis or hit the links?

Sincerely,
RNC Deputy Minister of Propaganda

So, Frank James can't read a poll. He had to scroll through PAGES AND PAGES of numbers that ABSOLUTELY REFUTE the point he is trying to make, and finds a question at the bottom of the poll, that is being asked for the first time.

A question that if you look at what's being asked it's obvious what answer you are going to get. Basically, "Who do you trust more, Politicians or Military Generals?" Well, that's a no brainer. Only an idiot trust a politician!

But he does skip the pages of facts that make his point inargueable.
-A majority of Americans want a pullout within the year.
-A majority of Americans don't trust Bush's plan in Iraq (which is what the General was parroting in Congress today.)
-A majority trust the Democrats and not the Republicans to control policy in Iraq.
-A majority think it was a mistake to go into Iraq.
-A majority think our pullout should take less than a year.
-A majority think that it was not worth it to remove Saddam.
-A majority do not believe Iraq is part of the "war on terror."

Then there's the BBC poll that came out today:
-70% of Iraqis think security has worsened in the area of US "surge."
-62% of Iraqis think attacks on US troops are legitimate.
-49% (A majority) of Iraqis want an immediate withdrawal of all US troops. With the percentage increasing almost half when pullout within a year is asked.

Frank James is a political propagandist. Ignoring the facts and mispresenting statistics to promote his political view. He is no better than Joseph Goebbels.

Out of all the things you could have written about today, you chose MoveOn.org.

It sounds like they've succeeded getting their message across to me.

"Route Irish" is the only credible measure of success or failure. Some 8 miles of deadly highway stretching between Baghdad International Airport and the Green Zone which are about 10 miles apart, Route Irish has NEVER been secured by U.S. forces. All the rest is wishful thinking, politics, and military lip service.

Colonel Joe Repya has a response to all this moveon.org hate-spreading:

"... Sorry to state the obvious, but General Petraeus is one of “Our Troops”. To imply that he is untruthful, misrepresents the facts, manipulates the numbers or allows intelligence reports to be “cherry picked” is an insult to all of us who currently serve, have served or will serve in Iraq.
...
I have met General Petraeus a number of times while on active duty. I knew many of the officers who trained, mentored and molded this brave warrior. He is a brilliant tactician and our top expert on counter insurgency warfare. Questioning his integrity, for partisan political purposes, is nothing less then shameful. It is terribly troubling that at a time of war we would have elected officials so willing to perpetuate their political agendas that they would assault our military and its leaders in this manner. I only wish that these partisan politicians in Congress were held to the same ethical standards as our military.
... Now MoveOn.org has called General Petraeus a traitor, an insult to all who serve in our military."

from www.captainsquartersblog.com

Bruce-

"Our military organization today bears little relation to that known by any of my predecessors in peacetime, or indeed by the fighting men of World War II or Korea.

Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States corporations.

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."

President Dwight D. Eisenhower 1961.

Failure to question our military leaders is the true treason.

Move on . Org received the attention it sought. It also gave the Repubicans the diversion they needed to not ask the witnesses relevant questions.

401-293-0008. whoever wrote the innane 'petraeus betray us' ad: call me. you're an utter dumba--. you stupid s---. please let me share my thoughts with you-really, i'm not kidding.

Tony, you say, "Failure to question our military leaders is the true treason." Of Course, no American should have a problem with questioning our military leaders, and the military should answer to the American people.

However, the MoveOn.org psychotic fringe went beyond questioning. They shamefully maligned and accused General Patraeus of being dishonest because he has an opinion different than theirs. General Patraeus deserves much better than this.

Gen P is a Great Military mind, I served with him, he is a credit to the US Army. Its a shame that the far left kooks have to discredit him to make their point. These kooks discredit the Demacratic Party. Its a shame

General Betrayus IS dishonest. Wake up.

Most Americans don't buy Petraeus's spin anymore than they buy the White House's. No wonder, it's one and the same, he wouldn't have gotten the job otherwise.

It shouldn't take more than 6 months to get all coalition troops and their equipment, civilian contractors and US civilians out of Iraq.

Patton turned a whole army around and marched it in the dead of winter to Bastogne in 48 hours during the Battle of the Bulge.

Stephen Biddle, a member of Petraeus's advisory panel said the other day, that the strategy in Iraq would require the presence of roughly 100,000 American troops for 20 years — and that, even so, it would be a "long-shot gamble."

100,000 troops in Iraq for 20 years for only a "long shot gamble" at success costing the US taxpayer $10 billion a month, not to mention the lives? For what? So the Republican party can save face? So the delicate feelings of the chickenhawks who know nothing of war won't be hurt? That's insane.

We have almost a $9 trillion dollar national debt. We're mortgaging our country to the Red Chinese, Japanese and Saudis. Our military is on the verge of breaking down. Our infrastructure here at home is falling apart. New Orleans is still a mess. Osama bin Laden is still alive lecturing us while he plots ever more destruction. We simply can not afford Bush's fiasco any longer.

It's long past time we end the occupation of Iraq. Let them settle their own problems. No matter which president gets us out, whether it's in a month or 20 years, one thing is certain and it's not genocide. They will be dancing in the streets of Baghdad celebrating their victory over the occupiers. Whatever Iranian backed stooge is the titular head of the government will condemn the USA if he expects to hang onto his job. That's a sure bet, not a long shot. Bush knows it and he'll waste however many dollars and lives it takes to run out the clock on his second term so he can blame the next president for "losing" his
war.

That's not worth one more American life, limb or dollar.

Correct me if I am wrong - but didn't the general receive just about a unanimous confirmation vote from congress?

Fight the war in Iraq, or fight the war here? Your choice knuckleheaded cowards!

Funny - haven't seen a post from Doug Zook on this. I'm waiting for this one.

Can we all agree, that when Bush fakes another "terrorist" attack right before the '08 election, then tries to use that as an excuse to stay in power or cancel the elections that we rise up in arms and kill all that believe in the fascist unitary executive? Can we at least agree on that?

Yes - lets all believe MoveOn.org over a four star general serving in Iraq. Moonbats are sure a wacky bunch.

Hey CB! You're an idiot. I'm already fighting religious extremeist idiots for control over the constitution. It's you fascist right wing christian's that support the "unitary executive." Currently, you are more of a threat to my freedom and government than any Muslim. So should I fight you here before I have to fight you in my bedroom?

If you actually read what Bin Laden has said to us, it's "We will continue to kill you as long as you support dictators in the middle east and kill us." So, I have a solution, STOP KILLING THEM. Stop supporting the genocide committing state of Israel. Stop supporting monarchs and dictators. Stop overthrowing democracies (ie Iran 1950s)

So, let's fight the religious extremist at home, the christians, and not the ones overseas.

I do not know what everyone is so upset about. Haven't we come to expect to be misled by our leaders and media? It is a given these days. All numbers, information, and media released by our leaders will be biased.

Jooggo,

NO

Borat need to know why American left need instant gratification for EVERYTHING. When is moonbat people at Move-on. org and like going to realize that good things come to those who wait?
Why pick on general who lead brave troops? Sound like throwback to Josef Stalin and boys.
Borat have good idea: how about US congress peoples go throw them self under Metro bus in Washington DC?
I think war will be won by brave American soldiers who do fantastic job under rotten condition.
Thank you, American soldiers. You the best!!!

Actually, under US law all the soilders in Iraq are war criminals for accepting illegal orders. Under the constitution signed and ratified treaties are the law of the land (ie hold equal weight with the constitution and US laws). The Iraq war is an illegal war under international treaties we have signed and ratified. Soilders, refuse to mobilize or we may have to hang you after war crime trials.

Yer research sucks buddy- majority of Americans disagree with Betray Us.

What an absolutely sick comment here from clearly a nonsoldier:

Actually, under US law all the soilders in Iraq are war criminals for accepting illegal orders. Under the constitution signed and ratified treaties are the law of the land (ie hold equal weight with the constitution and US laws). The Iraq war is an illegal war under international treaties we have signed and ratified. Soilders, refuse to mobilize or we may have to hang you after war crime trials.

Posted by: AmericanSoilder | September 11, 2007 12:23 AM

Keep it up, Lefty Loons, keep it up. You're just going to kill your Demoncrap party and continue to expose yourselves as the anti-American folks and haters that you really are!

Tell you what Mr. Soldier: You try and hand U.S. troops for "war crimes," cause it'll be the quickest way for you to get your ass beat to a pulp.

You are "born" into the muslim "religion of peace". Conversion to others will result in your death.

Let them be and they will kill each other and the mid-east will be free.

Saying that Gen. Petraeus was "unanimously confirmed" is irrelevant. Questioning his effectiveness months after that confirmation is not unpatriotic. Being caught reciting a White House written press release that is doctoring the facts IS relevant.

[quote]
from www.captainsquartersblog.com

Posted by: Bruce | September 10, 2007 2:56 PM
[/quote]

Since Bruce just loves to dig into the messenger that anyone he disagrees with posts, lets look into his "Capt. Ed":

[quote]
Captain Ed started Captain's Quarters in October 2003 and was fortunate enough to "meet" many kind people in the blogosphere. Thanks to the efforts of nationally-syndicated radio host, columnist, and author Hugh Hewitt, Captain's Quarters joined the Northern Alliance, a coalition of conservative bloggers in Minnesota who are regular listeners of Hugh's radio show.
[/quote]

So Bruce cites a far Right Wing source who's in bed with Hugh Hewitt, but didn't want you to know that.

I don't know General Betraeus. Do you? Why would anyone blindly trust someone who is obviously speaking from a subordinate position to the people who are ordering him to speak. After six years of the endless lies, corruption, and arrogance of this republican regime, how can anyone respect anything Petraeus - or any other general - has to say? - especially about this subject. His report was predictable and predicted, almost down to the last syllable of his speech. It's not about the individual himself. It's about any general officer on active duty being ordered what to say.

The "report" was intended to give the appearance of legitimacy to the present regime's steadfast refusal to face the realities of this civil war. Their position has never changed in the face of all the unrelenting evidence that the entire ill-advised involvement in Iraq has been a disaster from the first day to the present. The regime understands that they're losing support even from some republicans in the face of their endless lies and obfuscations, so a damage-control tactic was in order. They kept us waiting for a "report" from an expert source that would appear to be an honest assessment, legitimate and believable. Expert, yes. But honest? Could you imagine Petraeus telling the truth? Think about it. Imagine.

General Petraeus: "...and there is no way we can ever attain any acceptable goals in Iraq, and achieving victory is not only impossible, but irrelevant, because there is nothing to achieve victory over. The people there hate us, because we've killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians (many more in 3.4 years than Saddam Hussein did in 34 years), sent 2 ½ million of their people into exile as refugees, destroyed their infrastructure, and caused the introduction of Al Quaeda and other terrorist groups, who were not there before our invasion. We've started a civil war, and ignited a calamitous instability in a previously stable country. With this new "democracy", we've disturbed the balance of power with a shift (for the first time in 1,500 years) from Sunni to Shi'a, creating a budding fundamenalist Islamic republic (out of a previously secular nation) and a new ally for Iran. Our continued presence there is inadvisable and would further undermine the interests of the US and Iraq. Thank you."

Back in the real world we can see that everything Petraeus actually said was predicted, and (as Richard Nixon once said about his own remarks) "at variance with the truth".

Please keep it up! You idiots are the best thing that ever happened to the Republican Party.

This ad represents the low point in American politics. Shame on MoveOn.org. Have they no conscience? And I donnated to them last month...never more.

Moveon is right. What's with all the whining about the poor feelings of a General. Screw that.

"The attack ad on General Petraeus is despicable. No general would ever lie to the American people at the behest of his Commander in Chief" _General Colin Powell

"General Petraeus is a decorated combat veteran. It is an absolute disgrace for anybody to vilify a man who has served his country in war" -Swift Boat Veterans for Truth

"Soilder" (sic) obeying illegal orders? Our Pres ordering fake pre-election attacks on the USA? Where does this garbage come from? The lefties constantly invent data to provide proof of their ludicrous ideas and cite invented facts to support their lies. Rosie O actually said it was the first time fire melted steel. Huh? How do you think iron ore got to be steel in the first place?
Where did one idiot get the idea that 190,000 weapons have gone missing in Iraq? C'mon, show us your proof or your source of information.
The amazing amount of ignorance exhibited above is proof of the failure of our education system-or proof of the need for more and much larger mental institutions.
Moveon attacking the integrity of a General Officer? As a retired Officer, I happen to know that one does not get stars if they lie, cheat, or steal. An Officer's word must be an absolute bond. Those who violate this do not rise in rank. Gross violations of this code result in dismissal. Period.
The implication that Petraeus' report was written by the Executive Branch is an insult to every SOLDIER who has ever worn a uniform. He was asked to render his own opinions and he has done so.
Keep providing us with invented facts and stats. Keep up the ridiculous looney toons attacks. Please continue the Hate Bush rhetoric. Your pants drop down a bit further with each stupid statement, and your exposed bare ass will finally bring the American public to realize what you are.

For Joogoo: Your asshole is barely visible. Your head is in the way.

W. Rich

GET OUT! GET OUT! GET OUT!
then what?
Don't ask the Dems.
General Patreus' leadership is the best thing that has happened to the American military in a long time.
I strongly believe that if the US had not gone on offense we would still be playing strictly on defense - as in before 9/11. You can't score and win the game if you only play defense. Offense is the only way to score.
Respectfully,
A Republican

"Where did one idiot get the idea that 190,000 weapons have gone missing in Iraq? C'mon, show us your proof or your source of information."

We got the idea from the United States Government Accountability Office.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d07711.pdf

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/05/AR2007080501299.html

You can apologize at any time.

"You do remember that your guys (GOP) let Bin-Laden get away AFTER W. claimed that he was going to get him "dead or alive" and then to top that off, he quit looking for him in Afganistan and started an uncalled for war in Iraq."

Do YOU remember that Klintoon had three occasions during is his regime to capture Bin Laden, even handed to him on a silver platter, but he refused? Do you remember when Klintoon sent cruise missiles to destroy an Al Quida Camp, only to destroy nothing? Do you remember when Klintoon sent troops to Bosnia when there was no threat to America from Bosnia?

People need to quit living in the past. Klintoon is no longer president.

Bush failed to find WMD or capture bin Laden. His decisions cost us over 3,700 soldiers and $450 billion.

If Petraeus was around during the Vietnam War, we'd still be there today fighting wave after wave of Chinese and Vietnamese labeled as insurgents and enemy combatants in their own land by the U.S. media.

OK Tony, I apologize for my error. IAW GAO, the USA cannot account for 190,000 weapons given/sold to Iraqi forces. True statement. The sloppy bookeeping applies as well to the Iraq government, such as it is. Once upon a time, I well remember that two helicopters and a tank went missing at Ft Hood, TX. It took almost a week to "find" them even though all 3 items were physically present in plain sight. My point is that in the military, "missing", "lost", and "not accounted for" do not mean gone or stolen.

I appreciate that, though you may be a liberal and against the Iraq war, you are probably not in the same category as the looneytunes lefties I was addressing in my tirade.

Al Qaeda not in Iraq before we invaded? As a former Intel officer, I happen to know that is wrong.

Our basic problem with Iraq and the entire Mideast and N Africa is that we do not comprehend tribal/village mentality. A man's first loyalty is to the village. All other allegiances are secondary, which is why central governments cannot operate in the manner of western governments. Villages may decide to unite in order to gain control of larger territories, but are still independent of central powers unless there is an advantageous reason to cede some power to the central entity. That reason may be money, religion, or fear. Obey or be cut off or cut down.

From personal observation while living there, government officials are expected to require gratuities for their services, as they are paid very little. Fees/taxes collected are skimmed off up the chain of comand before reaching the central power. We call it corruption, they call it normal. They've operated that way for far longer than we have existed as a nation.

A portion of their income is inevitably given, voluntarily, to their village. The village will take care of them in times of hunger, illness, imprisonment, or old age. Attempting to make Iraq or any other country in that region into a mini-USA is an exercise in futility. Add in the Jihadists, the oil money, and the indoctrination methods of the Wahabi schools and you get a clear and present danger to Western democracies and values.

Sorry to report this, but the only way to defeat the radicals is to kill them off until their influence and power is minimized. Even then a continuing effort is required to keep their numbers down to manageable levels.

I still do not understand the vicious attacks on Petraeus. The report he was required to present was to be his own opinions based on what he has seen. I have no doubt whatever that is what he saw. Do you?

Joogoo: My opinion of your garbage got thru uncensored, which surprised me. I offer my apology to anyone-besides you-who was offended by my language. My opinion of your unhinged, unjustified, nonsensical, and frankly STUPID implications remains unchanged. Yes, this is a personal attack for which I offer no apology.

As a Democrat, I have to agree, MoveOn miscalculated on this, and I don't see any shame in telling them so. Are we so myopic that we can't even distance ourselves from the most radical members of our party? If so, we are going to hand the presidency to the Republicans in 2008. D*mn shame if you ask me.

I am not furious with the crazy, far left Moveon.org types; I expect no more (or no less) from them. I am FURIOUS; however, that a U.S. free press is so biased and is pushing its agenda! It is no better than the govt run press in China! We are not dumb citizens; we want professional, quality, fair journalism (just the facts; we'll figure out the rest). The NY Times is arrogant, unprofessional and now fully exposed to the world for what it is (and is not...a professional paper). No wonder its readers have been leaving in droves. A full apology by the Times is warranted...an apology to the professional general and an apology to the Amercian people (the non-nutty ones, at least:).

It makes no difference what any of us think about the conflict in Iraq. Whether you are for the conflict, or not we still must stand behind our military personel without restraint. The comments that have been made are absolutely barbaric. This is a man that deserves our complete respect. Whether we like him or not, he is, and continues to devote his life to our freedom, and those of you who cannot respect that need to leave, because you do not deserve to be here. The very words that MoveOn printed are only aloud because of a soldier's blood. How dare any of us disavow that, and see it as nothing...how dare us. It never ceases to amaze me how low americans seem to stoop. We are a country full of hypocritical, winey ass children. GROW UP!

I would like to know WHO within the Move On organization placed the ad and how early it was submitted.

Actually, from an advertising/promotional standpoint it's as brilliant at Geico's Gecko.
Petraeus/Betray Us. Who will ever forget the connection?

Petraeus is presumably Greek....as, I believe, was Spartacus, a valliant slave of the Roman Empire.

If Move On was saying to our America's leading General...."say to an illegitimate leader 'I am Spartacus,'" then what's wrong with that?

We still have freedom of speech, don't we?

If, on the other hand, no one will come foreward from the Move On group to take credit for the placement of the ad....look to the Bush camp...particularly Young and Rubicam, the Bush related advertising and public relationtions firm that created the Willie Horton ad. Such whinning has all the earmarks of a cutout plot, as well.

Presidents and Generals who can't take the heat should stay out of the kitchen...particularly when the best of the cooks have already bailed out because the KITCHEN IS ON FIRE!

More importantly, what would Col. Theodore Westhusing, the beloved ethics teacher at West Point and lover of Greek contributions to Western Civilization say about the ad were he alive? And if you don't know who Col Westhusing is, you haven't read Christian Miller's BLOOD MONEY.

Speaking of Gecko's...that pretty well describes the spinless US Senate. Senate...repeat after me..."I am Spartacus!" "No, I am Spartacus." "No, here I am."

WHC

What nobody seems to be talking about is how Petraeus is in the line of fire. Bush hides behind him and the sword of Damocles is over the General's head. If you're talking about civilian control of the military, then stop the administration from hanging him out to dry. There is no reason he should take the hit for the poor decisions that this administration has made. He is put in the position of having to adopt the current administration's line of garbage, or be discredited. In no other administration, has the president so blatantly hidden behind the military. Hell, he's more protected than we are!!! Shame on you Mr. Bush, for not taking the heat like a leader of the free world should do...

As a non American I must say I once believed that being free to criticise your leaders (including military ones) was one of the key freedoms Americans have that many other people in the world aspire to get. But now I see that many Americans, as represented in your Senate, would prefer that your leaders, especially generals, are not criticised too harshly.

I am surprised that the Senate didn't welcome the criticism considering that so many troops have already died and been maimed in a war which has only benefitted America's enemies (like Iran) and the U.S. war equipment suppliers. Surely your leaders can do with some thorough questioning and critical advice to help improve their military effectiveness and the U.S. image abroad.

Now, should we in the rest of the world still look up to the U.S. for leadership of the free world if American leaders so readily discourage free public expression on such an important issue as the Iraq war?
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Why is it OK for Republicans to run attack ads like this but the moment some non-republican group does, then it is somehow wrong. Republicans shamelessly did this to war veteran John Kerry during the 2004 presidential campaign, they currently do it by manipulating disfigured war veterans to garner support for their lie based war and they will do it again and again. In retrospect, I'm surprised that the common ordinary US citizen would even care about the Moveon.org Petraues ad. We all knew that General Petraues was going to write his own speech, in his own words, saying exactly all the things that he knew the Bush administration wanted to hear in a form that sounded acceptable to all republican politicians. If these spineless rich republican chicken hawks want their war so much, they should start funding it themselves instead of strapping the wasteful war debt on the backs of middle and lower class children for the next several generations. If these spineless republican chicken hawks really think that their illegal unconstitutional war was and is justified, then they should send their young college republican sociopath offspring to go fight their war. MoveOn.org should be commended for their willingness to present the facts and stand up for the truth.

Say what you will, but the republican faciest do not represent the people anymore, just the big money and corparates. The right religion fanatics are definately a part of putting Bush in office, and contributing to the loss of life in a war based on a lie, enough is enough of the right wing betrayal of real America,(THE PEOPLE)!!!!