A hopeful new year?

This is a perfect example of why statements from JohnD, that only so many lives are lost and that somehow makes this war palatable, is so terribly
wrong.

Bill r its only going to get worse. You know just because I had two letter published about how they are not taken care of troops with PTSD like discharging them say they have PD they broke my window called my house and said some very nasty things to my son. Paulo John D and Bill have made a enemy for life because they are just like these people. Beleive in lies and don't stop thinking Bush and these so-called Republicans walk on water.The are the biggest danger to you me and the country. They are just as bad as the people who attacked us on 9/11

Excellent graphics from the NYT. 3000 isn't merely a number:

http://www.nytimes.com/ref/us/20061228_3000FACES_TAB1.html

The Bush administration's attitude toward Iraqi casualties is that they are just " rag heads" and there are too many of them anyway.Their losses are not counted in the cost of this war.

bill r,

I think we would all be willing to make this sacrifice for the right cause... The question is, is this the right cause? The answer is in two parts: Sort of "yes", but more "no".

1) Yes, getting rid of Saddam Hussein -- in and of itself -- was a good thing to do. He was a vicious psychopath who was a threat to the people of Iraq and the region. The WMDs (or the lack of them) are really beside the point.

Unfortunately, however, an oppressive but relatively stable and quiet police state has been replaced by anarchy and random violence, with no end in sight. True, SH imprisoned, tortured and murdered thousands of people who got in his way, and I DON'T want to downplay that. However, before the war most Iraqis who kept there noses clean just got on with their lives.

The bottom line is that in prewar Iraq children could walk to school without getting blown up, there was a functioning economy, pure water, sanitation and electricity. Now these things look like a hopeless dream. So we struck out there.

2) Sensible people (including military experts) said BEFORE we went in that a victory (meaning winning the peace) was "iffy" to begin with and would certainly require an enormous sacrifice, with AT LEAST twice as many boots on the ground to begin with, plus a large international coalition. We didn't do that, and we can see the result today.

Three years ago friend and i would go around and around arguing about going to war. He would tell me endlessly about SH's brutality, his repeated violations of UN sanctions, the threat posed to Iraq's neighbors etc, etc. I would always counter with, when it comes to war practicality trumps morality. If the enterprise fails (and this had "failure" written all over it) so that the result is more death and suffering, less regional stability, less security for our own nation, then it would be better not to topple this admittedly evil regime. Or at least to act less rashly.

It gives me no satisfaction to say this, but: I told ya so!

Now we have to turn to how to get out while minimizing the damage. The plans I've seen floated in The Swamp range from the astonishingly stupid (just leave and all of the violence will magically end) to the astonishingly callous and shortsighted (just let them fight it out like dogs in a ring).

The problem with the former is that it's demonstrably untrue. Our presence did not foment sectarian violence, it unleashed it. These tensions were always there, but the secular Baathist regime kept them in check. If we just walked out now the murderous chaos would go on. The problem with the latter, ie redeploying to the borders and just letting them fight it out is that (besides the obvious brutality) in the end this will result in a Shi'ite dominated client of Iran. That means less regional stability.

The best ideas I've seen floated by our illustrious politicians are Barack Obama's -- withdrawal on a flexible schedule (not fixed, but tied to events on the ground) plus a greater commitment of time, effort and money to repair the Iraqi infrastructure and economy.

I'm waiting for one of the NeoCon Chickenhawks (Paulo,JohnD) to come on here and tell us about how this is a low amount of casualties,and we shouldn't worry about it until we reach WW2 proportions of soldiers killed.

Of couse these NeoCons are the same guys who would have found a way to sit out WW2 while their fellow Americans died for the cause.

These same kind of NeoCons thought we should have stayed the course in Vietnam.

It's almost like we have given the highest office in the land to a 4th grader who is playing "Army" in his sandbox.
W. has been a disaster as a leader,and the locksteping GOP is also to blame.

Juan,thanks for coming clean on the war.You have admitted it was ill-advised and been a dismal failure for the Republicans.

Your endorsement of Barack Obama is a wise choice,and one I totally agree with.

Welcome back to the Democratic party Juan,this is a great way to start 07.

Who's next?

This should be a better year than we've seen in the last six.As the Dems take over Congress later this week,the Neo-Wackos are in their last "Throes" of ruining our great country.

The same ideology that sent our troops to die over lies,the blind followers who term this war as a street gang battle,the idiocy that says running up a 9 trillion dollar debt for our kids and grand kids is actually "Good",and the fact that "Only" 3,000 soldiers dying isn't bad because we lost more in World War 2,will be replaced by a Congress that will focus on American citizens.

They will focus on the oil co's,who have been the "John Dillinger" of the last 6 years,address the 40+ million of un-insured,go after the CEO's,who are over paid for slashing the pay and benefits of average Americans,and shipping their jobs to Communist China,and win the Presidency in 08 because of it.

Yes,I finally see a little light at the end of this Repub;ican tunnel.

Sorry to jump in on an established conversation that's gone elsewhere but I'd just like to reiterate to Frank and Mark that many of us here in The Swamp are fervently hoping to get the aforementioned "Civilized Insult" post in the New Year. This is hope for a New Year, after all, right? C'mon guys, make it happen!

Posted by: Dale Peters | Jan 1, 2007 9:43:52 AM

=============

You should start writing under a pseudonym, Dale.

Bush's approval is down to 30 percent, but these are the true crazies who can't stand any direct or indirect criticism of Bush.

And, they're dangerous too. These are the same people who were bombing Olympic Parks and Federal Buildings or running around in militias in the 90s.

They know Bush is losing ground, and they'll strike out at anyone they see giving him problems.

Be careful, man.

Well, as a symbolic figure, the 3k dead Americans certainly moves this war into the middle ranks of US wars. I pointed out long ago that in Vietnam from 1959 until 1965 there were about 1k US deaths, suggesting that the worst may be yet to come.

Here is a link to a related subject. It's a Washington Post article by Richard Clarke. (Thanks Unl.)

'While we were Fighting the War'

http://www.goodharborreport.com/node/875

------
Here is a small excerpt.

"As the President contemplates sending even more U.S. forces into the Iraqi sink hole, he should think that staying on there is not just about the thousands of fatalities, the tens of thousands of casualties, the hundreds of billions of dollars of unproductive debt generation, it is also the opportunity cost of taking his national security barons off all of the other jobs they should be doing to address critical problems whose window of opportunity for solution are slamming shut unheard over the wail of Baghdad sirens."

Dale,

Sorry to say bb is right.
The unheard, unseen extremists will 'Gaslight' you without you knowing who is doing it. It's how fascism works. Try getting caller id if you can afford it. Then you can turn them in to the law at least.

Other than that, get out the old Mini-14 and wait for a righteous chance. Lots of states are passing 'fast kill' laws at the behest of the gun lobby. Maybe you can make it work for you.

Really, Dale? I'm as bad as the people who attacked us? I'm sorry about what happened to your home and the calls you received Dale, but me and the republican party had nothing to do with it. There are extremists on both sides of the political spectrum. I can tell you some stories about republican poll watchers from Wisconsin that I know who had their tires slashed and suffered other indignities at the hands of activist democrats.
If you're willing to level an accusation like that it makes me wonder what else you might be capable of.

Dale,just because I have different views than you,"I'm not one of those people."But,c.morris is wrong on the caller id,unless they're really stupid,if someone is going to call you with threats,they're going to block their number or call from a pay phone.He's right on the mini-14 though...I live on a wooded lot with a 250 foot driveway and on the two brick column's at either end of the drive-way,one has my address and the other has a sign,No Dogs,Just Guns...never had a problem.If you live in Chicago,forget it and move.
Paulo

C bb Thanks but let them come remember I was Recon they will meet their match. My Family got hit lost and hand and foot. The Anger right now will not go away they lied to take us there. They can care less who gets hurt. You can see that by their ugly little post

Loon C bb as a thank you for your concern I post this enjoy

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1263904595241260331

Dale,

I'm sorry that your son was hit,but thank god that he's alive.

I'm not going to give up the fight against this "war" that was started based on lies from Bush,and his GOP thugs,until our guys come home,and don't you give up either brother.

bb-- your post is looney...Bush's approval rating is at 38 and climbing,if he wasn't so far to the left and stood tall like Reagan did,he'd be in the 70's! America still wants and yearns for a positive leader and he can still do it!!!
It's people like you that want America spelled Amerika and want gloom and doom...sorry sir,but you'll always lose.....We,the "good and noble" people of The United States of America will fight for freedom on the battlefields anywhere,take your left wing crap back to the hole you crawled out of....sissy!Oh,and don't hurt your battle hardend keyboard.
Paulo

WHAT!?

Loon, how have I "come clean"? My position on the war has not changed a bit! Everything I wrote above is consistent with what I have been saying since the first day I posted here, you moran.

As for Obama, shortly after he made his speech on the subject I posted here that I liked what he had to say, and I've repeated that several times since.

So what's different?

This: you have, at long last, actually read and comprehended what somebody else has posted. Yes indeed that is a "first". We should all definitely pop the bubbly and celebrate that one!

Oh, and don't welcome me back to the Democratic Party. I've never been one and I'm not one now. I've said here repeatedly that I have voted for both Dem and Rep candidates in my life. Let me now add I have also voted for Communists and Libertarians -- but those were really protests. I am not affiliated with any currently existing party. Also I still believe that this nation desperately needs the electoral reforms that would make a multiparty democracy possible.

_____________________________________________

Yet again, the Loon inadvertently illustrates what I find wrong with this forum. Too many posters in the Swamp are only talking and never listening. You have to do both to have a conversation, people.

I'm tired of the people here who are in love with themselves, who get a woody going seeing what they type being published, but ignore the golden opportunity to hold a conversation, to exchange and develop ideas with total strangers from all over the globe.

But besides the aggravation of putting up with the many Loon types, I simply don't have the time. Too many other things are happening in my professional and personal life to steal the time for this. I will definitely miss some of you.

I started saying goodbye several days ago. Now that the holidays are over, and I'm back in the saddle, I will say again and with finality...

I'm outa here.

I've been saying this for years now. And, you not only have the problem of the physically wounded, you must also deal with the mentally scarred.

I have a friend who works at the VA who often tells me about the inner anguish that the Vietnam Vet feels--waking up in the middle of the night with fists and jaw clenched, for example, ready to defend against an enemy that will never be there again.

Every president who decides to enter a war should continually heed the warning of one of the best (if not the best) generals of all time. "War is Hell," said Gen. Sherman.

The problem all along with this crowd in the White House, though, is they have no sense of history -- military or otherwise.

Juan,real White Sox fans don't quit.When things got tough at the end of 05,Ozzie and the boys didn't quit.

Wilbur Wood had to pitch both games of a doubleheader,he didn't quit.When things got tough for Richie Allen,he didn't quit.

When Jimmy Pearsall got beat up by Tony LaRussa,he didn't quit.

Now,you call me a moron and walk out of my life!

My, is Raving Loon a Sox fan too??? I thought us Sox fans were smarter than the average Loon!

Anyway, not surprised to see the hysterical BS from John E about "chickenhawk right wingers," but Dale Peters? Dale, you really have been drinking from that Loony Left Wing Kool Aid Well too long! Funny how, though that a 26-year-old Air Force vet, who is now in school and spent one tour of duty in Iraq, doesn't feel the same you Dale and John E. Is he a chickenhawk too? Or the 21-year-old Army vet, who currently is in Iraq and married to a friend of mine's daughter, doesn't feel the same as Dale and John E? Are they chickenhawks too? Or what about the 43 year-old National Guardsman, a brother of a friend of mine, who spent time in Iraq but is home, why he doesn't feel the same as Dale and John E. Is he a Chickenhawk?

The venom dished out by the ignorant left is so ridiculous it is scary.

If any of you care to read, here's a interesting column from the Wall St. Journal: http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB116767372393163913-HkYO2RxH5RcJtN7jSklt8zxxWxI_20080101.html

You lefties will be happy to hear that a conservative newspaper like the Journal is comparing Iraq to Vietnam.

Dale - the events you describe sound similar to the same kind of tactics I've seen employed by left-wing extremists...there are extremist idiots on both sides of the aisle whether you care to see it or not. I choose not to assume you are like those people, however.

My humble thoughts to all "representatives" who have willingly sold America to the highest bidders. I don't believe I am alone in my thoughts.

I am an American mother
Protective of all I hold dear
My rights, privacy, and even my children
Being taken for reasons unclear

You’ve sold your souls to the devil
No longer willing to do what’s right
To hell with me and the land of the free
Special voting held late at night

Tell me what price my son brought
For the year that he spent in Iraq
Invading at will, orders to kill and
Ignoring him when he came back

Illegal wars with no end in sight
Bills lining your pockets the norm
No oversights, screw human rights
With Katrina, you killed – not the storm

My safety ignored at the borders
And you’re selling away my land
Crime after crime, I believe it’s time
For this mother to take a stand

Lady Liberty has joined beside me
Two mothers with children in need
We see through the lies and your corporate ties
What a shameless depth of greed

We are ready to take to the streets
Informed and within our right
We won’t be alone, our numbers have grown
We The People, will bring forth the fight

no name,
No one is happy that US soldiers are being killed and maimed in Iraq while Osama Bin Laden is free.

Juanito, if you're reading this, know that you'll be missed.

You've generally been one of the posters here who presents a few verifiable facts to back up his arguments, unlike many whose ravings, if supported at all, are backed by "facts" that sound much like urban legend or Internet rumor.

The rest of us will have to carry on without you, but it won't be the same.

"no name,"

I don't think you supplied the right link in your post from 10:43 am.

John D read Army and Navy times 3/4 of the Military feel the same way I do.

I hear ya, Juanito. I've tried over the years to promote intelligent conversation on this blog and limit the amount of name-calling, political sloganeering, and baseless argument. But, like you, I have to concede that it's been a losing battle.

There are just too many people that would rather exhaust the exclamation mark key on their keyboards than actually discuss the merits of the issues.

"I'm tired of the people here who are in love with themselves, who get a woody going seeing what they type being published, but ignore the golden opportunity to hold a conversation, to exchange and develop ideas with total strangers from all over the globe."

I couldn't have put it any better. I'm done, too.
I can honestly say I've enjoyed conversing with most of you. Juanito, C.Morris, Bryan, Dienne, a blinkin, John D, RRD and Bruce I'll surely miss. Those of you who just post here to rant and rave, you know who you are.

It's been real, people,
Bill

Dale,
John D. prefers anectotal evidence as opposed to empirical evidence.

First Juanie,now Billy,what the heck is going on here.I noticed I wasn't on your list Bill,what exactly are you telling me,it's over? Well,i'm truly humbled and sorry it had to end.So,in the words of the late great George Harrison,this is the best I have to say:

Wah-wah
You've given me a wah-wah
And I'm thinking of you
And all the things that we used to do
Wah-wah, wah-wah

Wah-wah
You made me such a big star
Being there at the right time
Cheaper than a dime
Wah-wah, you've given me your wah-wah, wah-wah

Oh, you don't see me crying
Oh, you don't hear me sighing

Wah-wah
I don't need no wah-wah
And I know how sweet life can be
If I keep myself free from the wah-wah
I don't need no wah-wah

Oh, you don't see me crying
Hey baby, you don't hear me sighing
Oh, no no-no no

Wah-wah
Now I don't need no wah-wah's
And I know how sweet life can be
If I keep myself free - of wah-wah
I don't need no wah-wah

Wah-wah (repeat and fade)

Looks like it's just me and you,Little Johnny.

Brother Dale, Tin Soldier video was very humbling.Should be required watching for all war mongers.Thanks Bro.

Are you guys really going to leave us alone with Paulo?

Now we're left with fish in the barrel of stupidity.

I feel so....empty.

I hope you change your minds. It's been fun.

See ya Bill and Juanblabo,it's been real.

Will you take JohnD and his rightwing gang of peronalities with you ???

Obama in 08 !!!

Bill! And you a Rolling Stones fan??!!

Hey, I am posting one of those 'flowery insults' here after dinner. Just for you. You gotta stay tuned buddy!

You play the sane man to Paulo and John D's insanity, man!!

Bill! And you a Rolling Stones fan??!!

Hey, I am posting one of those 'flowery insults' here after dinner. Just for you. You gotta stay tuned buddy!

You play the sane man to Paulo and John D's insanity, man!!

Bill and Juan,

As is good and true in any debate, small differences of opinion may at times come to the forefront of the discussion, and said differences may lead to harsh and bitter language that said participants may regret, yet having uttered such declarations are unable to retract and or repudiate.

Having said ' said' disclaimer, I find you lacking, short of starch, and in need of bucking up! May you find a bone of strength in your spines! May the god of determination infest your spirits! How dare you deprive us wanting and ignorant masses of your informed rambling and silly posits?? In what universe would your fine and just mutterings not be sought out and desired by the ignorant and uneducated!?

How dare you abandon our fine and nobel discussions, debates and otherwise cogent rants and ravings in this time of national crisis! We want and deserve to hear the hard opinions, and indecisive ballderdash, pleadings, exhortations and otherwise unrelated bleating of the both of you!

How have you arrived at such a low, perverse and singularly foolish decision?
How can two such fine, refined, educated, trustworthy and staunch defenders of the Republic abandon us all to our own follies, foibles and farces?

My good fellows!
It cany be weakness of mind, carelessness of the intellect, an affirmation of the predestination of the ages that force you to make such a capricious choice.

A fart upon you and all your posterity! May it linger in your halls and hauntings for a fortnight! Shame on you for giving up the shout out!
How can you call yourselves Swamp Rats! You must never quit!

Gooday, Gentlemen, and have a productive and profitable day.

Your Humble Servant,

C.Morris

RL,

Thanks for the Harrison. You know how I feel about him.

Bill,

I've changed my mind.

PLEASE COME BACK!

I'm afraid for the rightwing with Little Johnny and Paulo at the wheel.
It's going to look like Saddam's hanging...only worse.

Please come home Bill,we can moderate the GOP, I'm sure of it.

The best ideas I've seen floated by our illustrious politicians are Barack Obama's -- withdrawal on a flexible schedule (not fixed, but tied to events on the ground) plus a greater commitment of time, effort and money to repair the Iraqi infrastructure and economy.

Posted by: Juanito | Jan 1, 2007 11:23:41 AM

I hope you are still out there juanito. I was wondering why back in...oh...say October when I mentioned the very same plan, you said that it would not work? Why have you changed your mind?

"Over? Did you say 'over'? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!"

-Bluto

yep, I screwed up...although it was an interesting story...here's the link: http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/bminiter/?id=110009469

All angry criticism aside, I'd be interested to see some thoughts on this article. Iraq is still out there and needs to be addressed.

"no name,"

Very cute, laying the failure for the Iraq War anywhere but where it belongs: on George Bush, Don Rumsfeld et cetera who chose the wrong war at the wrong place and fought it the wrong way.

You should note that nowhere in the article does it quote anyone who thinks adding troops will quell the violence, as there are few serious strategists who believe this is the case. It simply disparages Democrats and other naysayers for stating the obvious: what we have done hasn't worked and American lives are being lost at an all-too rapid rate for all-too vague of a purpose.

Tell me, "no name," what is our mission in Iraq? Is it to mediate a civil war? Is it to install Shiites in power? Is it to secure oil fields for our country?

And perhaps you could tell me how more troops will effectively mediate the civil war. Or, for that matter, where those troops are going to come from other than more stop-loss orders that lay bare the farce of an "all-volunteer military."

The revisionism will never end. As Joe Biden said, this is indeed George Bush's war, but the implication that Biden wants us to lose because he's not interested in sending more troops (which, by the way, neither is the American public or the overwhelming majority of military experts) is the same ol' BS propagated year and and year out by the Bush Administration.

It goes like this: either you support every aspect of George Bush's policy or you are a terrorist-loving, freedom-hating, anti-American surrender monkey. Well, almost every single aspect of Mr. Bush's foreign (and I would argue domestic, though we can leave that debate for another time) policy has been DEAD WRONG, so where does that leave us? I guess all those Americans who voted against the GOP in 2006 were either misinformed or hated America.

Mr. Biden does not want America to fail, but that doesn't mean that sending more troops will help us win. I fear our chances for winning ended with the widespread looting that followed the takedown of Saddam and the disbandment of the Army and civil service. THe Iraq War was an ill-planned debacle that is and always will be, George W. Bush's War of Choice.

Good luck, Bill. I hope you grow up a bit and maybe grow a tougher hide. In my last go-round with you, you acted like I was trying to bait you when I wasn't at all. At least you tried to be reasoned, unlike Paula and his evil triplet JohnD/JD.

no name

Looks like an interesting link. There are many compares to Iraq re. Vietnam. I need to spend more time on it.

Yes, post '68 the VC were decimated and demoralized, but the much harder NVA replaced them.

Problem: The ARVN never stood up so we could stand down.

This is too short, but all I have time for now.

The ARVN divisions were hollowed out. Plus the Saigonese generals and political controllers were so corrupt and compromised there never was a farts chance in Hell that they could face a hardened NVA combat battalion and win.

The Iraqi forces that are supposedly on our side today are compromised and infiltrated. It's a sad sad situation.

I have no solution.

Check out;
A Bright Shinning Lie
Flashback
Dispatches
Mai Li 4
Anything by Caputo
Meditations in Green (Fic)
Free Fire Zone (Fic)

"You should note that nowhere in the article does it quote anyone who thinks adding troops will quell the violence, as there are few serious strategists who believe this is the case. "

Bryan,

Here are my questions for the 'surge' party;

1. Will 30k more troops secure the borders?
2. Will 30k more troops secure the road to the airport?
3. Will 30k more troops secure the Bag. power grid?
4. Will 30k more troops secure the oil infrastructure?

I think we know the answer.

I might also add that the stupid mishandling, perhaps purposeful, of the SH hanging will certainly infuriate the Sunni insurgency ever further. This is just one more monumental blunder committed by our perceived puppet. He , Maliki, seems to be continuing the Bush method.

Are we supposed to seriously think that Maliki could not 'execute' a clean execution??

Thanks, Maliki and the Shiite gang. You are a real bud!