I absolutely agree with allowing priests to marry. Now this church would be better off continuing in this direction by allowing priests to wear civilian clothes, allowing them to use other versions of the bible, allowing them to outlaw drinking and gambling in the church, allowing them to encourage confession to be between the congregation and God and not between the congregation and the priest, allowing them to discourage prayer to mortal humans like Mary, allowing them to not have to listen to anything from Rome, allowing them to teach being saved as being an acceptance of Christ and a turning over of your life to Him and not to the church or its rituals, and of course allowing them to allow standing up and praising God during the service, if appropriate. If this is what the Catholic church was all about, I would "convert" to Catholicism myself. Of course the conversion wouldnt be necessary.

Tibi gratias agimus te invita Clay

(Thank you for your approval Clay)

The thing is, Rome isnt doing anything for this church unless it allows things like letting priests marry and so on. The best thing is for Rome to leave this church alone. It borrows money from the mafia? Come on, lets kick satan out of this church. We wont be able to do it entirely but the church can sure make more of an effort than it does. It has to start with the priests and the congregation supporting them. People need to believe that change is needed, not a continuation of traditions that dont work for Christ but instead work for an institution. The sign outside of the church can even still say Catholic if you want. People will be more excited to do God's work. Real revival will take place. More will come to Christ. Lets get going. I care about the people of this church. That is why I have made the comments on the blogs that I have made. Its time to stop waiting for Mary to appear and get ready for Christ to appear. One of the lines in American Graffiti is, "rock and roll has been going downhill ever since Buddy Holly died." This church has been going downhill ever since it went to Rome. It has become more steeped in tradition that people feel they must follow. It is nothing but the devil's control. Well now its time to kick his butt out. God bless.

I dunno. Something about this "marriage" screams disfunction.

Clay you still continue to make mistatements about the Catholic Church based on nonsense you likely picked up by anti-Catholic bigots. I'm not going to go through listing all the errors in your comments since I've done that and you don't seem to be interested in learning the truth. All I will do is say that you really need to worry more about you and less about the Catholic Church.

I dont see how it could be considered as nonsense. Confessing to God, praying to Him and not mortals also, not having drinking in church, becoming no longer associated with the mafia and other unGodly influences and considering scripture more important than traditions (if it is a tradition God wants us to follow it is in scripture) seems more like common sense to me. Actually it is God's sense. God bless.

Clay no church practices violate anything in scripture. In fact without the Catholic church the NT would not even exist.. Under the guidance of the Spirit and the tradition you attack the NT was put togetherand broken into chapters and verses that you now recite. Go back and look at how many times in his letters Paul mentions the word tradition. Catholics pray to God the same as you. Have you ever asked someone to pray for you Clay? That is all Catholics do with Mary or the Saints. It would be no different then if they asked you to pray for them. I have never seen any drinking in any Catholic Church. If you are referring to social functions I need to remind you that Christ and all his disciples drank. We are warned to avoid excess. There is no prohibition against drinking in the Bible.

The reason it should be considered nonsense is that you are condeming what you do not understand. You know little to nothing about the Catholic Church and what you think you know was likely aquired from questionable sources. You are casting judgement on other Christians in direct violation of the words of Christ. You are bending Christianity and the Scriptures to fit what you want it to be rather than accepting it for what it is.

I am sure you are well intentioned, however, you actually further Satan's cause by stirring up dissent among Christians.

Yes I was referring of course to social functions like crab feasts with beer, etc. I still dont see the advantages of having Rome dictate things. I still dont see why people cant come to Christ and have their lives changed all at once as I have seen happen. In the Catholic church, it seems to be a process of going through certain routines. It isnt up to a priest to ask Christ to come down into the communion. I suppose there is nothing wrong with confession but it of course isnt up to the priest to say to anyone that they are forgiven. Doesnt the Pope use that language? Does Christ ever say to ask the deceased to pray for us? Isnt that more of an Old Testament tradition of asking father Abraham, etc? Christ tells us how to pray with the Lord's Prayer. I am not getting any info from questionable sources. I am getting it from looking at the practices of this church and asking myself why it takes place. I get it from looking at Rome now and how evil it also was back when. I also question the neccessity of all the money spent on unneccessary things in this church. I am also cetainly not trying to cause dissention among Christians. I am trying to help Christians. And I see them as being people not into having changed lives and working enough for God. Of course all churches have that problem. It just seems to me that all of these traditions, instead of getting up and getting excited for God, encourage that attitude. If I go through my mass commitments and take my Holy communion and I have been baptized into this church then I must be headed to heaven? It isnt neccessarily so, and to have people think that only allows the devil to sneak in and do what he wants. Thanks.

So Clay, you sayin' I oughta not go to church?

You some kind a wise guy?

Clay as has already been stated the Bible makes no prohibition on drinking. Social events aren't church so your prior comment was misleading. What do you think went on at the wedding feast in Cana? The advantages of having a central authority is to avoid diverse interpretations of Christian beliefs which occurred in the early church. How exactly do you know anyone’s life was truly changed? Unless you possess some spiritual gift of being able to see into that person there is no way to know how much anyone’s life is truly changed. Someone jumps around and shouts out and you believe they are suddenly on fire for God. You obviously have no real knowledge of the process as it works in the Catholic Church so I’d suggest you refrain from criticizing what you do not understand. For all your criticism of the Eucharist you cite no biblical references to support it. We’ve been down this road before and I’ve already gone through the scriptural basis that shows your error.

Christ never prohibited drinking, but somehow you’ve see that as wrong. Christ also install Peter as the head of the church yet you don’t accept that either. You seem willing to pick and choose or in some cases add to Christ’s teachings.

In truth you know nothing about the Catholic Church Clay. On more than one occasion I have posted links and even suggested books including one written by a former evangelical Christian who converted after a careful study of church practices and the Bible.

Here’s a site from Orthodox Christian.

http://users.nni.com/jrblack/Ortho_Evang.html

Because you don’t understand something doesn’t make it against what God wants. You are not the arbiter of what God wants or expects. Your understanding isn’t needed to validate doctrine. You confuse theatrics for enthusiasm for God. Nothing in Catholic doctrine teaches that if one makes their mass commitments and takes Holy communion and I have been baptized into the church they are headed to headed to heaven. The same is true of those in your church. No one is saved by the church they belong. It seems to me that you are the one allowing the devil to sneek in and do what he wants by making comments on things you do not really understand. If you are truly concerned then take the time to learn about the Catholic Church and what it teaches not what you think it does or what someone else tells you it does.

Of course no one knows for sure who is saved and who isnt except for God. However, it is never up to going through a certain number of procedures, as required in the Catholic church. I suggest you familiarize yourself with what the Catholic church's doctrines are. Of course this church doesnt teach that making mass commitments and being baptized and taking communion gets someone to heaven. Unfortunately, due to the number of rituals and procedures in this church, the members often take it to be that way. Less tradition and more scripture and honest preaching discourage that in any church. Thanks.

God is the reduction of all that is illogical to the simplest possible non answer.

According to the bible, "it is the power of God leading everyone who believes in it to salvation." Romans 1:16. The Roman Catholic Church preaches a different gospel by demanding additional requirements for salvation including sacraments (1129), meritorious masses (1405), church membership (846), purgatory (1030), indulgences (1498), and baptism (1256). The bible teaches that "Salvation is yours through faith. This is not of your own doing, it is God's gift, neither is it a reward for anything you have accomplished, so let no one pride himself on it." (Ephesians 2:8,9). The Roman Catholic Church teaches salvation through faith plus works. People can obtain their own salvation and at the same time cooperate in saving their brothers through good works and indulgences (1477, 1479). The bible teaches "He has put all things under Christ's feet and made Him, thus exalted, head of the church" (Ephesians 1:22,23). The Roman Catholic Church teaches that the Pope, "by reason of his office as vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire church has full, supreme and universal power over the whole church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered" (882). It sure seems like old satan has sneaked his way in there to me. Obviously it is better to keep it simple, obey scripture and refuse to keep adding rules to what the scripture says. God bless.

Clay I've studied Catholic doctrine for a long time. I've probably forgotten more than you know. That's why I know what you say is flawed. You aren't the first non-Catholic I've encountered to make such inaccurate comments.

"Unfortunately, due to the number of rituals and procedures in this church, the members often take it to be that way"

What exactly are you basing that on Clay. It sure sounds quite a bit like a personal opinion to me. No one I know takes it that way. No church service I've ever attended or Catholic school teaching before that ever even hinted at such a thing. You are making up things now to rationalize your own ignorance about the Catholic Church. I noticed you didn't address my comments about the parts of scripture you seem to ignore.

"Less tradition and more scripture and honest preaching discourage that in any church"

Are you now saying that the Catholic Church's preaching isn't honest? Funny because Paul mentions tradition quite a bit in his letters. It was that tradition that was taught long before the NT was even formed. It was that tradition that actually is responsible for the NT. As for honest preaching you might want to check where you are getting yours. You seem to have no problem questioning the faith of others or a church you know little to nothing about all because it doesn't fit into your idea of how things should be. It might be a good idea for you to spend more time reading scripture especially Christ comments on judging others and 1 Corinthian 11:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 2 Thessalonians 3:6

Littel of course you can back that positive statement up with proof right? What am I saying I forgot your statements are factual because you say so. No proof is required.

For someone who claims to be a rational thinker you sure make a lot of illogical irrational statements.

Clay, after our Mafia meetings, Templar orgies, and Opus Dei conspiracies we go to Mass.

We read from the Old Testament, a Psalm, a reading from the New Testament, and one from the Gospel (the word of the Lord) at every Mass. You can read our doctrine here: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

How does that work for ya?

And Anon, it would be a good idea for you to respond to the church practices I have referred to above instead of just using my personal opinions that I have included. What I have mentioned includes referrals to Catholic teaching. It goes against what a lot of the bible says. It isnt going to change by myself reading more passages. It is what it is. The bible teaches that Christ expiates our sin. "Through His blood, God made Him the expiation for all who believe" (Romans 3:25). The Roman Catholic Church teaches that sins are expiated in purgatory through "a cleansing fire" and that we must "strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace" (1030,31; 1472-75). The bible teaches that Christ's life, death and resurrection provided the only way to be saved. "There is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name in the whole world given to men by which we are to be saved" (Acts 4:12). The Roman Catholic Church denies this by claiming that the Catholic Church "is necessary for salvation" (846) and claiming "the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims" (841). It sounds like some of it is coming from the White House. Who wrote this stuff? Why should they dare to say that they know what God wants? Because they have done it for years? Stick to the scriptures. It is simple. If I stray from them then I am wrong. I am not wrong about this church being better off sticking to them also. God bless.

(Clay) Anonymous - A clearly negative assertion that you somehow think you can twist into a positive assertion. If my statement is untrue, you should have no problem discrediting it by showing the "non answer" that is your (or any )god really exists, as you positively state it does., and which you clearly cannot do.

You made a positive assertion that "God is the reduction of all that is illogical to the simplest possible non answer" A negative assertion would have been to question God's existence.

Wow now you are doing what you accused me of.doing I have to prove your truths to be not true. All I am doing is asking you to do what you ask. Prove your assertion true. At no time have I ever said I could prove God to you. The level of proof you require does not exist. That's where faith comes in. You are the one claiming the rational, logical high ground I just expect you to follow the same rules. The only thing twusted here is your ability to use logic.

Clay your quote in Romans doesn’t say how that happens does it? What bothers you is the Catholic Church has given some specifics on how “the power of God leading everyone who believes in it to salvation”. Baptism is an important sacrament expressed throughout the NT. Christ himself demonstrated that by having John baptize him. Most every Christian Church practices some form of baptism.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=simple&format=Long&q1=baptize&restrict=New+Testament&size=First+100

On the subject of the Eucharist look at 1 Cor 10:16 and 1 Cor 11:27-30.

On the subject of Reconciliation and Indulgences look at Matt 16:19, Matt 18:18 and John 20:23.

On the subject of purgatory try looking at 1 Cor 3:11-15, Heb 12:29, Rev 21:27

The Catholic Church also teaches salvation is a gift of God not something we earn. I once suggested you read a book and I am going to resuggest it. It is called “ A Biblical Defense of Catholicism”. It was written by Dave Armstrong a former evangelical. His original intent was to study Catholicism and the Bible in order to save Catholics. What he found ended up causing him to convert to Catholicism. The book go through many of your issues discusses scriptural references as well as current and ancient church teachings.

The problem with your keep it simple approach is that is what led to many heresies in the early church. Also the Bible does not address in specifics many areas. The gospels themselves indicate that Christ said and did things not recorded in them. Clay you stray from the scriptures when you question the faith of other Christians. You stray from scriptures when you attack other Christians based what you think the scriptures say. You stray from scriptures when you ignore things like judging others. If you want to keep it simple then follow the scriptures, don’t bend them to suit what you want to believe.

You criticize the Catholic Church for saying what God wants, but you do that countless times here. Why is it ok for you to do it? Clay you need to worry about you and less about other Christians. If you want to learn about the Catholic Church the learn about it. If you are happy with your faith life then great. You do Christianity a grave disservice when you go on about things you do not understand.

If salvation is a gift from God and not something we earn, according to the Catholic Church, why the writings in this church that I have quoted above? Baptism may be important but it isnt necessary for salvation, Why does this church teach that the church itself is necessary? The bible may mention purgatory and communion, but they arent necessary for salvation. You dont defend what this church has written, about salvation, the Pope or any other area. Thanks for your comments.

Two questions for the both of you (Anonymous and Clay):

- Can God make a stone so heavy He can't lift it?

-How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Discuss among yourselves....