Aside from the communication problem and usual response, illustrated by Msgr. Fisichella "no por mi culpa" we have the wrong order of priorities. Summarizing beloved St. Francis of Assisi, "Preach with deeds and use words only when necessary." Ministries need to be the priority and from that evangelization and catechetics will flow.

This faithful smells another unsucessful PR stunt, sorry to say. Hearts of the hierarchy aren't in the right places so how could minds be?

Maybe people are growing to think for themselves this is why they are seeing more secular views ,Religion has had thousands of years to prove it's point and it has failed to do so in so many ways,the reason why ? people are more educated then they were in the dark ages when only a certain class of people were allowed to read and write and when the people learned how to do so they started to ask questions that religion could and can not answer so the slow decline began .

Since when are Latin and Italian "relatively unknown languages"?

The official language of the Vatican is Latin and it is surrounded by Italy where they speak, OMG, Italian. Everything meant for international readership is translated into Deutsch, English, Français, Espanol, Italiano, Latine, and Português in a timely manner.

Presenting the question is either an example of Ms. Winfield's arrogance or her ignorance. Her record suggests the former. I would suggest that if she considers Latin and Italian "relatively unknown languages" that she should start reporting from Arizona or Tennessee instead of Italy and the Holy See.

The reason for the decline of religion has nothing to do with anything except man's desire to follow his own selfish desires. Nothing new it is simply a replay of what happened in the OT with Israel.

It has not been a slow decline Kwolf; it has been precipitous and spectacular, especially in the latter part of the twentieth century--except in the case of Anonymous and a few others to whom the dark ages have a never fading allure. And Anonymous are you telling me the religious are not selfish? Does god belief eradicate selfishness? I see your tete a tete with Robert in the other blog has resulted in quiet resignation and surrender from you. O why hast thou given up so easily? Where is thine spunk? Robert was most logical in his last argument with you about the sale of real estate in the hereafter and I have to say you were not too persuasive in your repartee.
R Anon

R Anon of course religious are selfish. It's part of human nature. Maybe you could explain how my comment suggested religious people were not selfish? All Littel did is his usual childish ridiculing. I already got from him, and you all I wanted. Admission that using human logic you can not make the absolute statements that you have and continue to make. I’m glad to see you don't let a little thing that get in the way of continuing your antics promoting atheism as somehow logical and ridiculing anyone who doesn’t follow them as religiously as you and Littel. You apparently missed the point of the exchange or more likely ignore it since it conflicts with your own beliefs. Someone whose mind is closed can’t be persuaded no matter how it’s done. That isn’t resignation, but acceptance of the reality that some people are too stuck in the limits the human mind to see anything beyond. If you want to view that as resignation and surrender be my guest. If makes no difference to me.

If the pope wants to revive Christianity in Europe, he could do nothing better than to encourage people to stop believing that rituals in this church are what is necessary to be saved and encourage people to have a meaningful personal relationship with Christ. In other words, he needs to tell them to attend a fundamentalist church, not a Catholic one. That is the best thing for people in Europe.

Clay I am curious on what are you basing your posts about the Catholic Church. Form an earlier it is apparent you have no real knowledge of the Catholic Church. I've gone to the Catholic Church for decades and not once have I heard what you claim mentioned.

Clay,

As you know, I am not religious, so "have no dog in this fight," per se. That being said, I try to be respectful of other people's religious faith, except when their faith/dogma intrudes on my rights. That is all prefatory to my asking you, by what right do you dictate which "brand" of religion provides any and all people "a meaningful personal relationship with Christ"?

We well know what brand you buy. Is fundamentalism truly "one size fits all"? And a second question: does fundamentalism always impart such incredible hubris to its adherents?

Clay, back out from under his rock, let the games begin.

What I have claimed is that the Catholic church raises traditions to be as important as scripture. For example praying to Mary, believing that the wine in the cup is the blood of Christ, calling Christ to come into the communion bread, believing that it is necessary to be baptized in order to be saved, etc. None of these things are biblical. This church teaches that Mary is the mother of God. Mary is the earthly mother of Jesus (John 2:1). It teaches that Mary was a virgin, before, during and after the birth of Christ. Mary was a virgin until the birth of Christ (Matthew 1:25.) Later she had other children (Matthew 13: 55,56; Psalm 69:8). The Catechism of the Catholic Church, The Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, The Papal Documents, The Code of Canon Law and The Liturgy of the Church are not only confusing to the average Catholic, but they are often in conflict with scripture. Satan has a good laugh on the whole mess. This church teaches that an infant must be baptized to remedy a deadly spiritual disease (1250), and that the infant receives the benefits of Christ's death through the sacrament of baptism ( 1214-1216, 1227, 1250-1252). The church teaches that through baptism a child is rescued from the power of satan, made innocent and stainless before God and born again. According to the bible, justification is a divine act. "God is the One Who justifies" (Romans 8:33). According to the bible, justification is an act of God in which He declares a sinner to be righteous in His sight (Romans 4:3). Biblical justification includes a positive reckoning in which God credits to the sinner's account "the righteousness of God" (Romans 3:22). From that point onward, God views the individual as "in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3-14.). Of course, we can be justified to begin with because of Christ's death on the cross. There, He took our sin that we may receive His righteousness. The Catholic Church teaches that an infant enters into the life of faith through baptism. The practice of baptizing infants is unbiblical. As far as adults go, through the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults, Roman Catholicism teaches people to approach God through their own righteousness and good works. This stands in direct contradiction to the bible which teaches that God justifies by faith, not by works and that God justifies the unGodly, not the righteous. In holy communion, this church teaches that the bread and wine become "God and man." The bread and wine contain Christ "whole and entire" (1374). Every drop of wine and every crumb of bread contain Christ's blood and body. (1377). According to scripture, there is not even the slightest indication that the bread and wine changed at the Last Supper. Christ spoke of the bread and wine as symbols, not the substance, of His body and blood. Jews were forbidden to drink blood. If the disciples thought for a second that they were actually drinking blood, heated discussion would have resulted. Yet there is no hint of such an occurence. I cant imagine bringing a child into such a confusing and therefore mostly satanic mess as the Catholic Church. Keep it simple. There is every indication in the bible that this is what God wants. If you havent heard of what I am saying, you should at least think and pray about it.

Hi Clay. It's so good that a decent God fearing man has joined the discussion. It isnt very often that Godly men speek up against the catholics and the homosexualist agenda. Me and my wife are new to the area and live in Columbia. Maybe you could recommend a local church that teaches correct values for our family.

Hello Cletus. I found a church for you. I looked on David Cloud's website which has churches that have filled out a questionaire asking if they agree with fundamentalist position. No guarantee but they give out the info on the churches. I called this one and talked to them. It is in Frederick, about 30 min from Columbia. It is Frederick Baptist Church. You take 70 to the 15/340 exit south to Leesburg. Then you get right off at Mt Zion Rd, go right and they are one mile on the left. The website for the church is frederickbaptist.org. It will give you service times and numbers. They have a new pastor(one year now)and the church has been growing. There arent too many fundamentalist churches in Howard County. There certainly may be others but this is one I can recommend. Let me know how it works out.

Clay. I’ve heard these arguments before usually by someone not familiar with Catholicism. Fundamentalists are sometimes horrified when the Virgin Mary is referred to as the Mother of God. However, their reaction often rests upon a misapprehension of not only what this particular title of Mary signifies but also who Jesus was, and what their own theological forebears, the Protestant Reformers, had to say regarding this doctrine.

A woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).

Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.

Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.

Some try to allege, erroneously, that Christ had natural brothers, in an attempt to contradict the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary. This error on their part arises from their ignorance about the vocabulary used in the New Testament. St. Jerome, who was fluent in all three biblical languages, refuted this error over 1600 years ago.

The word used in St. Mark 6:3, stating that Christ is "the brother of James and Joseph and Jude and Simon," is "adelphos." It is known from St. Matthew's Gospel (27:56) that the four "brothers" mentioned in the quoted passage from St. Mark were not natural brothers of Christ, but rather cousins. James and Joseph are called sons of Alphaeus in Luke 6:16. Moreover, James, Joseph, Simon and Jude are never called "the son of Mary," as Christ is (Matthew 13:55).

That is just one proof that "adelphos" cannot be taken invariably as meaning "natural brother" -- and certainly not in this context. There is no question that in Greek, both classical Greek and Koine (biblical) Greek, "adelphos" can mean either a natural brother, or a relative who is not a natural brother, or even a spiritual brother (as Christians among themselves).

In Hebrew, cousins of the first and second order were called "ab" (brother) and "aboth" (sister), so that Christ was said to have many brothers and sisters, although in the strict sense, he had none.

Nothing in any of the documents you mention contradicts scripture. Of course no where does scripture declare itself the sole source of authority either. For that matter without the Catholic Church you wouldn’t have the NT to quote from.

There are errors in your other assumptions as well but this post has run too long to go into. I suggest you actually learn more about the Catholic Church before making comments as opposed to listening to fundamentalist. What you think you know is not correct.

Cletus you may want to do some reflections and prayer. Anyone spending time attacking other Christians is not following the words St Paul emphasized in his letters nor are they following Christ's teachings to remove the log on their own eye before worrying about the speck in anothers.

Hi Anon. How could Mary have supplied half of the genetic matter for Christ's body when Christ was planted in her womb by God? Why do you pray to her when no scripture tells you to, regardless of whether she had other children or not? I am not horrified by someonme saying that Mary is the mother of God. It just makes me think how people are mislead. Why are men like Peter and Paul prayed to when Peter rejected those who fell before him to worship? Why are infants baptized when no scripture commands us to do so? Why do you believe that the communion wine is the actual blood of Christ when no scripture can be used to show that this is what the disciples believed? What is the point of the statues of Mary in churches that are sometimes larger than a statue of Christ? Why are people taught to approach God through their righteousness and good works when the bible says that we are truly saved by faith? Why do priests think that they have the authority to tell Christ to come down into the communion bread? Why is confessing to a mortal human used in church instead of confessing to God? Why not have people confess at the altar? What is the point of the pomp and ceremony in Rome? Isnt this a distraction? Why have the headquarters of a church on top of a hill where people were slaughtered? Shouldnt this be more of a memorial site? Why do you believe that God doesnt want us to pay attention to scripture or what He reveals to us through the Holy Spirit as the sole source of authority when His Son isnt back yet? Arent the rules laid down by this church often confusing to the average churchgoer? God certainly doesnt want us to be confused. I disagree with you about not being able to criticize other churches. To not do so is to let satan run amok. I suggest that Cletus attend your church and the one I have suggested also, then decide for himself which one he wants his family to attend. Thanks.

Cletus - The one and only real Christian church can be found at www.landoverbaptist.org

Well think you Mr. Littel.

And Cletus, if you are still on here from time to time this just goes to show you how far satan goes to keep people from the true word of God. Thanks.

So why do you need those "tracts" Clay?

You've shared them with us here before and they add a great deal of nonsense that isn't in the Bible. You and Bob Littel are so similar in that you both think your way is the truth, the only way, and that everybody else is misguided.

But when you start saying really hateful things about my religion (or any religion) I have to say that it is just plain wrong. Learn to act like a gentleman Clay.

In Harper (her friends called her Nell) Lee's novel To Kill a Mockingbird the Methodists and the Baptists have decided to have a football match:

“The Methodists were trying to pay off their church mortgage, and had challenged the Baptists to a game of touch football. Everybody in town's father was playing, it seemed, except Atticus. Jem said he didn't even want to go, but he was unable to resist football in any form, and he stood gloomily on the sidelines with Atticus and me watching Cecil Jacobs's father make touchdowns for the Baptists.”

That seems a much better way for people of differing beliefs to behave with one another Clay. But Atticus wasn't going to play football and his son Jem, short for Jeremy, was not very happy with his father. The official story is that Atticus was fifty years old and the other fathers were in their thirties. Since it's Harper lee's book we pretty much have to go along with her reasons. We don't say “well those Methodists must have been bad Satan worshiping types and that's why Atticus wasn't playing on their team.”

But that's what you do with our catechism Clay. You pretend it has some hidden unpleasant meaning. It's our book and it means what the authors say it means, just like Nell's novel. If you want to study the catechism do it. But don't read what some anti-Catholic author “says” the catechism teaches. Besides being wrong it is also incredibly lazy.

Here is my gift to you Clay, your very own catechism search engine. You can look up anything at all and find out directly from the Vatican what is written in the catechism without any misquotes or interpretations.

http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=017244302729534703680:v_mibv-qc_e

Clay have you ever asked someone to pray for you? Ever had someone ask you to pray for them? That is all Catholics do with Mary & the Saints. No one is worshiping any one except God. That is where you are being misled. The title mother of God should not horrify you. Mary was Jesus’ mother right. Jesus is God right? Leaving everything else the connection is pretty obvious. The only time I’ve ever seen a statue of Mary larger is if the infant Jesus or Christ as a child is being depicted. The church teaches salvation is a gift from God that we can never earn. Faith is not like a bus ticket that once punched guarantees admission. That is how many fundamentalists preach it. The bible speaks to the connection between faith and works. As for the Eucharist you really do not understand it. I’d suggest your read this link.

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/scrip/a6.html

As for Christ’s presence in the Eucharist you are being misled by false teaching. The priest asks for Christ to grant us the privilege of his presence in the sacrament. Pomp & ceremony I need more specifics before commenting on that one. Most Christian denominations have some degree of that. What difference does the location make? You seem stuck on Rome for some reason. If you go back to scriptures Christ gave the apostles the authority to forgive or bind sins. That has been handed down over time. For that matter where does scripture call itself the sole source of what God wants. The first books of the NT weren’t even written until 50 – 100 years after Christ ascended. They were accepted as scripture even later by the same Catholic Church you are attacking. Paul’s letters contain references to following tradition passed on by him and the apostles. The rules the comment on came about to prevent heresies which was a common problem in the early days of Christianity. If you believe it ok to criticize other churches then you aren’t following scripture. Paul’s letter cautioned the early churches against such behavior. What church Cletus chooses to attend should be his choice based on which one brings him closest to God. It doesn’t matter if that is a Fundamentalist, Catholic, Orthodox or other Protestant denomination. I’m sorry to say the only person being misled is you.

Clay you would do well to spend time using Dana's link and learn the truth behind the Catholic Church as opposed to the misintrepretations of others.

There are too many misleading ways and errors in the Catholic faith. Errors leading away from what the scriptures say. And if Cletus isnt a creation of someone on here, he certainly can decide which church to attend. The site suggested to him above is anti-Christian. Since he thanked someone for it before checking it out, it makes me think that he is a creation of someone. Regardless of what anyone says, I know which church I want to attend and what it does for me. I also have three men in my bible study who will tell you that they left the Catholic church and why. And of course there are saved people in the Catholic church. Another thing about that church is that it's members are often too quiet. Why do they not protest the governor's support of abortion rights for women? I dont see any of them on here saying anything about it. Prayer is important of course, but sometimes God wants us to stick up for what is right, and I know they are involved with anti abortion activities. One of the biggest things with the Catholic church is thinking that you have fulfilled your weekly commitments to them so now you are ok. You have gone to mass, you have fulfilled your communion requirement, you were baptized in the church, so you are ok? Not so. It never hurts to stress a daily commitment to Christ and knowing for sure that you have given your heart to Him. Thanks.

Clay no there are not what there is misunderstanding among many about the Catholic faith. I don’t know if Cletus is legit or not, however, if he is I agree he should choose what church to attend. He could well pick a church different from either of ours if he is sincere. I am not trying to get you to leave a church you are happy with. If your church fulfils you spiritually then I am happy for you. My guess is those three men had some problem with the church and if they feel more comfortable at yours that is great. Three men feeling more comfortable is hardly a reason to make attacks on the Catholic Church. Clay one doesn’t just become saved. Being a Christian is a life long commitment. I see far too many fundamentalists talking about being saved reminding me of the proud Pharisees Christ talked of in his parables. All our saved if they put their faith in Christ and accept him. However, that means living as he instructed. That’s the interconnection with works which most non-Catholics confuse as somehow being justified by works. One of the things He didn’t tell us was to go around judging others. I’ve been to fundamentalist churches and they did not lift my spirit. If they did for you great.. You confuse the thinking of people for church teaching. The Church does not teach that simply fulfilling as you put it weekly commitments or being baptized means your ok. The Catholic Church has been one of the most outspoken groups against abortion yet you attack it considerably. No one expects you to change. However to continually about misleading ways of Catholicism even after it’s been shown that your understanding in flawed is not something Christ would condone.

Clay, the Governor has no authority concerning abortion law. Use some common sense. No state official can change a supreme court decision.

Leave the Catholic Church alone and talk about what you believe rather than about the people you don't like. This is getting old. Start acting like a man.

The governor has the responsibility to act as the Christian he claims himself to be. His is Catholic but supports a woman's right to choose? Is he really Catholic? What does it mean if someone calls themself a Christian but doesnt follow what God commands? It is the same with the crab feast with beer on tap that I saw at the Catholic church near here. Some of the guys there were feeling pretty good. Yet God says that drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Yes, we are supposed to follow a Christian life after we become saved. And the Catholic church, as an institution, is encouraging this with beer and gambling in the church? It is no wonder that homosexuals want to think that the Catholic church accepts them. If it allows other forms of sin in the church, why shouldnt they think that what they do is ok? We are all sinners. However, this church has institutionalized sin to some extent. What type of Christian would I be to ignore that? To "leave the Catholic church alone" and not be the proper witness to fellow Christians is to ignore the word of God. Thanks.

The Constitution of Maryland demands that he swear (or affirm) an oath of allegiance to the constitutions of the United States and of Maryland.

His personal opinions about abortion are only interesting as far as getting to know the man. It makes no difference in his ability to do his job. There is nothing in his power as governor that could enable him to change Roe v Wade. It is entirely a national matter.

There are more important things about him Clay.

1. He is damn good looking. That counts in his favor.
2. He is married. That counts against him.
3. He is Irish. Buy the man a bottle of Guinness and stop whining.

Clay,

You might have enjoyed the recent sour-beef-and-dumplings dinner at Zion Lutheran. Great food, great fellowship, Spaten on tap, and nary a drunkard in sight!

Clay what exactly does the governors actions or inactions have to do with the Catholic Church? As for the crab feast did you see anyone drunk there are you assuming? A drunkard in that context is someone who regularly exhibited such behavior. There is nothing in the bible that prohibits drinking. In fact the wine used in those days contained alcohol. I don’t recall the bible prohibiting gambling? Could you quote the text, chapter and verse for me. Did you see gambling somewhere or is that an assumption on your part. What type of Christian goes around making false accusations based on false information and when it’s shown to be false still makes the accusations? I seem to remember something about removing the log from your own eye before trying to remove sliver from your neighbors. What you don’t get is you are ignoring the word of God by judging other Christians and doing it based on wrong assumptions.

If the bible says drunkeness is wrong and that drunkards wont inherit the kingdom of God, it isnt a good idea to serve beer on tap in a church. Probably some of those there do have drinking problems. Is church a place for them to drink? It sends a wrong message. Well back to work. Thanks.

Clay, the average person can drink maybe five beers during the course of four hours (a picnic) and if they are eating and moving around they will not get drunk.

If occasionally someone has a drink or two too many it doesn't make him a "drunkard." He is no different than the person who ate too many slices of pizza. Remember that they called Jesus “a glutton and a drunkard,” because “the Son of Man came eating and drinking.” You are doing the very same thing.

You'll just have to live with the fact that most of us read all of the bible, not just the parts that you approve of.

Clay except for the portion about drunkards inheriting the kingdom of God nothing else posted is based on scripture. It is based on your own intrepretion. Are you now saying beer was served in the church? I don't believe I've ever seen that. I've seen it in church hall or outside, but neber in the actual church. Someone making baseless accusations also sends the wrong message about what Christians should be doing? Maybe you should reflect and pray on that instead of continuing to make accusations that you don't support with actual occurences.

It wasnt in the chapel it was in the church hall. That is like seeing "remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy" and so deciding to cut half your lawn on Sunday instead of the whole thing. Thanks.

No comparison Clay. Again, the bible warns of the effects of being an habitual drunkard. It does not say not to have a meal at the church hall with your fellow believers. Most of the civilized Christian world consumes beer or wine during their meals, and perhaps an after dinner cocktail.

If you prefer to drink an ethanol free beverage that is your choice. We respect your preferences. Just stop pretending your opinion is God's opinion. It isn't. God is embarrassed every time you post.

Some of the guys I saw in the hall were getting drunk, and the bible says drunkeness is a sin. God is never embarassed at hearing His own words repeated. He never gets embarassed anyway because it isnt possible. Thanks.

Clay how do you know they were drunk exactly? Are you saying no one else in the hall has committed sin yourself included? While you seem to want to point out scripture on the topic of drunkeness you seem willing to ignore what Christ said about casting judgement on others and who should be casting the first stone?

Clay not sure what you were trying to say with that lawn example. Again where in scripture is alcohol prohibited? If you want to no drink or your church wants to practice that good for you. However, not everyone who drinks is a drunkard even though you seem to want to make the two interchangeable.

Thomas à Kempis suggested that you turn “your attention upon yourself and beware of judging the deeds of other men, for in judging others a man labors vainly, often makes mistakes, and easily sins; whereas, in judging and taking stock of himself he does something that is always profitable.”

Tomas you are being an example of what I have talked about here on the Catholic church. If drinking and gambling are ok (and yes not everyone who drinks has a problem with it) then why not drugs, as you suggested in another post, why not homosexuality? People will use what the church does as examples to justify their own behavior, even if that behavior is wrong. Now you know why Baptists and Fundamentalists preach what they preach. If we sound too judgmental, it is because we care about fellow Christians. Most of all, I am not afraid to look satan in the eye and tell him what he is and what he stands for. God bless.

Clay I forgot to ask how do you know they were "getting drunk"? Did you seem them get drunk or are you assuming they did. Either way it sounds like they weren't the only one possibly committing a sin.

Clay you are wrong with that comment about everyone who drinks has a problem with it. It is you who has a problem with it. Christ drank, the Apostles drank that is in the Bible. You seem to want to equate drinking with drunkenness which is an inaccurate view. That is why you have to resort to bringing up completely unrelated things such as drugs and now sexual orientation. You yourself are using your church to justify you own wrong behavior of judging others. Baptists & Fundamentalists sound judgmental because the judge others based on their own interpretations of scripture. What you should be afraid of is doing Satan’s work by violating Christ’s teaching about judging others and casting stones. You come off sounding like the proud Pharisee in Christ’s parable in Luke 18:9-14. You aren’t looking Satan in the eye, rather you are looking your brother in the eye and worrying about the splinter in his eye while ignoring the log in your own.

Clay. The gospels are filled with so much joy and love, yet all you see is heartlessness and hate. Take a look around this blog. Only you and Robert show bitterness and lack of compassion for your neighbor.

It must be very sad to be you. I hate to see you sad. I need a tissue.

Yet for all the hateful words you say about our Church, awe respond to you with love. Come on sugar, take a walk on the wild side.

Have a drink on me baby. I'd like to help loosen you up Clay. No strings attached. Just you and me saying our rosaries together and praising the Lord and, you know, whatever happens when saint meets ain't.

How about it Clay?