On the other hand, word of this comment must've done some real damage to her numbers among that portion of the Delaware electorate who is sane and rational.

As to the "double standard" she sees: simply put, I don't think so. This has NOTHING to do with the fact that she is a woman, conservative or otherwise. A fruitcake is a fruitcake, regardless of its gender.

This woman has a right to say that God is in control of things without being ridiculed. Heck, if she said that she still dabbled in withcraft, many Democrats would think she is the coolest candidate around. That is why we can have Halloween parties in public schools. Dont come dressed as Christ however. It is unconstitutional..

So are you saying that she is not a witch, or that the people in Delaware should vote for her "because" she is a witch, or that she deserves to be in the Senate "in spite of" the fact that she is a witch?

What I said Daisy is that she regrets ever dabbling in withcraft and that unfortunately some liberal voters still think that this kind of thing is cool. She should get votes because she is not afraid to speak the word of God. You cant speak the word of God in public school without being cut down fot it, but unfortunately people dont speak out against a kid dressing up as a witch. Now dont try to bewitch my words.

Clay the only reason anyone should vote for her is because they believe her to be the best candidate for the position. Since she will be representing not only Christians, but Muslims, Jews, Buddhist, Atheist, Agnostics and other groups her beliefs should not be the deciding factor for or against her.

However, since God tells us to tell those Jews, Atheists, Agnostics and others about Christ, if she doesnt then she isnt doing her job. Thanks.

Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan were both proud to proclaim their Christian faith without stomping on the rights of others. That's not what we're talking about here though. Miss O'Donnell is claiming that prayer meetings boosted her numbers in the polls. That kind of magical thinking is usually associated with witchcraft. In Miss O'Donnell's case I suspect “prayer meeting” is a code word for “coven.”

With all due respect Mr. Clay I don't think “Blessed Be” is the word of God, especially when it comes from the same lady who says that mice has got “fully functioning human brains.”

Here in Hazzard County our mice got teeny-weeny little mouse brains and anyone that says different is either stark ravin' mad or has been hangin' out with the old woman down by the swamp. Some say that old swamp hag is a witch, others say she's brewin' corn whiskey in that rickety old double wide. But they all agrees to one thing certain: She's a 'publican.

And that ain't never no good!

If a Christian cant proclaim that prayer boosted their numbers in the polls without being called a witch in some way, they arent as free to practice their religion as they should be. Satan is the one who wants people to believe that prayer to God is crazy, and, believe it or not, some of the people who say that are witches.

Clay,

The great thing about our Nation is that any idiot can run for office, any idiot can say idiotic things, and any idiot can "proclaim that prayer boosted their numbers in the polls." It's a free country ... so far, anyway.

The challenge for us sane, rational people is to make sure idiots get nowhere near the steering wheel.

Maybe she should start praying again.

http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2010101028018

Can't hurt.

The thing I like most about Christine O'Donnell, besides her faith, is her honesty. It makes her like myself. If I feel that something is right or wrong, I say it. I dont worry about being politically correct or pleasing anyone or not pleasing anyone. What I am concerned about is what God wants. If God doesnt want us to have premarital sex, even masturbation, I say it. If God wants us to pray, I say it. I dont worry about whether it will or wont get me votes. The best thing to do is to follow Him. If He wants me in office, I will be there. If not, I wont. Christine O'Donnell is probably the most honest candidate in the election. Barbara Mikulski would never say, "I have a girlfriend who is my lover" even if she feels that strongly about it. Why? Because she isnt honest. People are always harping about candidates being honest, unless what their candidate wants to say doesnt support their cause. I can honestly say that Christine O'Donnell supports how I feel about how a politician should behave. As far as the brain comment is concerned, does anyone think that this woman actually believes that a mouse brain and a human brain are equivalent? Wasnt she trying to say that mice have fully functioning brains, as do humans? Regardless, if anyone has any doubts, then call her office and ask about the comment. The number is 302-468-7010. Christine O'Donnell is probably the only totally honest candidate that has ever run for office in the history of this country.

Her exact words were: “American scientific companies are cross-breeding humans and animals and coming up with mice with fully functioning human brains. So they're already into this experiment.”

Yes, she said it and she believed it. I would hope that by now she has been more fully informed and no longer believes it Clay. But at the time she said it she was fully convinced. It wasn't a joke Clay, it was debate on stem cell research on Nov. 15, 2007. I agree that she is like you when you say “It makes her like myself. If I feel that something is right or wrong, I say it.”

But just because you “feel” that something is right or wrong doesn't make it wise to throw in your two cents. There is something to be said for checking the facts first. That is, something that neither you nor Miss O'Donnell feel compelled to do. You are correct that she is extremely honest.

Because of that honesty we can see how brutally stupid she really is, and keep her out of office.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph7jb4humhE

Clay - The embarrassment factor you should feel after making that last post would make peeing your pants in public, merely a lateral move.

I've never been able to comprehend how this "prayer' thing works. Surely, God is not in his heaven fielding requests, like some harried DJ. How many small children have had their faith dashed when the prayed-for pony did not materialize? Much more poignant and telling it is to contemplate how many parents have had their faith dashed when the prayed-for cure did not arrive for their child. Indeed, I am sure that many parents have prayerfully beseached their god for an explanation as to why their child was stricken at all. While I am sure that some have found solace in their faith (and may even have the sense that they came to an understanding with god), there must have been millions of parents over the millennia who received only silence in return. And this from a loving, omnipotent, omniscient god. Ms O'Donnell's pleas -- and those of her minions -- seem just as futile.

After all, I kinda think god is a progressive Democrat. At least his son seemed like he was.

Clay,

By the way, I am glad to see you back. Good to see your fascination with homosexuality hasn't diminished. Maybe you should rent some videos or something. You know ... just to relieve the pressure.

BankStreet In Catholicism the “Our Father” and the “Hail Mary” are typical prayers, and the most popular. Note that they do not make material or corporeal request of God.

“Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil. Amen.”

“Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.”

Also consider this invocation often said after reciting the Rosary:

“HAIL, HOLY QUEEN, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!

V. Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God.
R. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Let us pray. O GOD, whose only begotten Son, by His life, death, and resurrection, has purchased for us the rewards of eternal life, grant, we beseech Thee, that meditating upon these mysteries of the Most Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary, we may imitate what they contain and obtain what they promise, through the same Christ Our Lord. Amen. “

I agree with your assessment BankStreet. The “prayer thing,” as you call it, doesn't work in the situations you describe. Prayer, in my view, is a quest, not a re-quest. It a spiritual journey that brings us closer to the divine. That said, some years back during the Cold War, I prayed for the Pole's too, and along came Lech Wałęsa.

BankStreet - It is perfectly simple. Prayer works when an individual uses it for something important, like perhaps making a foul shot, but curiously only about as often as it works for those who don't pray at all. However, when done by a mass of people, say the hundreds of millions who prayed for god to stop Hitler before he killed 50 million during and before WWII, it is another story. Evidently those prayers were not worthy of say maybe this god putting a tiny little blood clot in some strategic spot where it could have done some good, or maybe some tainted food, or perhaps some engine trouble in a plane he was taking. Gee, god works in mysterious ways, don't he.

If Christine O'Donnell didnt check the facts in the stem cell statement, I forgive her. If the bible tells us to pray, I believe it, and so does she. Neither one of us will ask God to check the facts first. The final thing to consider for all of us here is, will God forgive us for not believing and following Him when we are judged? The answer is no. That is a fact that obviously needs to be rechecked by many.

I forgive her too honey buns. I just don't want a really dumb person in the senate. Senators have to make decisions based on complicated data, often scientific data. Yeah, I know, she looked really cute in that little ladybug outfit and you just wish you had been the guy dressing up as a Boy Scout.

You are so cute sometimes. You won't let a woman preach in your church but you want one making day to day decisions about the economy, the environment, and world peace. Your a such a complicated man Clay.

With all of the educated and knowledgeable Christian men in the world I will never understand why you tea party guys keep picking idiots to represent you. It must be in your jeans.

Dana,

The "Our Father" *does* make a material request of god, that of "our daily bread." Perhaps you see this as a sort of expression of gratitude for our daily sustenance, but it is an unabashed request, albeit for most of us here in the west anyway, something of a low hurdle. Similarly, the "Our Father" asks god to "keep us from temptation," which may be be, strictly speaking, a "material request," but it certainly is a request, the denial of which might well be immediately manifest. While the "Our Father" may not include requests for ponies, a cure for a child's spina bifada, a favorable election result, or world peace, it is still a catalogue of "wishes."

Yes women shouldnt preach and they shouldnt run the country either. I thought that Sarah Palin hurt John McCain. However, at this point I would surely rather have a Christian woman in office than some of the liberal men and women that we have. It cant hurt.

Of course, I meant to say,

...the "Our Father" asks god to "keep us from temptation," which may NOT be, strictly speaking, a "material request," but it certainly is a request...

Forgive me.

My dad was a very sad little boy when his father moved the family out of the city into the big house in Pelham Manor in New York in 1933. He thought as long as he had to live in the country he at least deserved a pony. So he PRAYED REAL HARD.

Within a few days his dad had bought two ponies. His dad reasoned that he should be able to go riding with the pretty girl in the neighboring estate. Riding alone was still, after all, quite lonely. And heck, they should have a swimming hole too, like Tom Sawyer. So his dad had a stream redirected and built and a pond put on the property. His dad built subways for a living so he had both the clout and the wherewithal to do this.

True story.

The moral of the story is this: Pray hard and hope for the best. But also have a rich daddy on earth in case your father in heaven is too busy with other stuff. And if you don't have a rich daddy – heck, go get a sugar daddy.

And if you trust in riches instead of God, you tend to end up in the wrong place after this life.

You got me there BankStreet. I was thinking more along the lines of some people I met when I let a born again transsexual drag me to a fundamentalist prayer meeting. This Christine O'Donnell clone was going on and on about how she prayed and laid her hands upon her car for the resurrection of a faulty turn signal. She got very animated and stood up before the captivated crowd:

“And I felt the immense power of Lawd Jesus and his love for ME! And when I got in my car the next day the flasher was working.”

The crown said in reverent unison, “Praise the Lawd.”

Besides me the only other person who said nothing was a biker sitting next to me. He was a Pagan. The gang, not the belief system. He turned to me and said quietly “Do you believe that sh**? She does!”

I couldn't figure out why a biker who reeked of stale ethanol was even there. I was there because I had a crush on my friend. I found out at the end of the evening that he was married to the crazy lady and this is how I found out:

I was a smoker back then and he and I were in the parking lot having a few puffs while the crowd had a few more “praise the Lawd's.” He said he had changed the turn signal bulb and didn't have the heart to tell her. I laughed.

“Oh yeah,” he continued, “she is real hot when she's on fire for the Lord.”

Just then she emerged from the building and grabbed his hand. As they walked away he turned to me and said, “Yeah, I married the crazy lady.”

Putting ourselves in a world of make believe doesnt work either. The word of God is never make believe. The Holy Spirit is real, and we are at a loss if we dont take advantage of what the Lord has given us. Satan also understands what needs to be in out hearts for him to be in control.

There is nothing wrong with riches Clay. God doesn't look down on down on the girl who shops at Cartier and up to the girl who shops at Kmart. It doesn't work that way.

Good or bad comes from what you do with those riches. Some people might think it was too ritzy to have two chauffeurs. Well that's nonsense. Chauffeurs have families to feed too. And during this recession that is one profession that really hit rock bottom.

I don't think you understand Clay. I once loved a man who had a business with twelve employees. He was very successful and he even drove a Rolls Royce. He never missed a day of work. I said to him one day; “Boris why don't you ever take time off?”

“Some people say I'm a workaholic but they don't know the secret,” he said.

“What secret dear?”

“Most men have a family to support. I have TWELVE families to support.”

Saint Augustine once said “Pray as though everything depended on God. Work as though everything depended on you.”

I know we've all met some arrogant and selfish rich people Clay. But money didn't make them that way. When decent people have money they stay decent. I know that goes against the popular myth but it really is true. When men and women who love their neighbors as themselves become wealthy they end up on those lists of “major donors” of our favorite charities.

Oh I give up on you darling, let Liza explain:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkRIbUT6u7Q

p.s. If you see me at Christie's don't wave. It could be a very costly wave.
Ta -ta.

Sounds like fantasy to me. The bible says it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God. Too many distractions. If you are rich, be like the man who owns Chick Fila. Give at least ten percent to the Lord and stay closed on Sundays. At least they used to be closed on Sundays.

Jesus said "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor....” He never said anything about giving “at least ten percent to the Lord and stay(ing) closed on Sundays.”

There you go again adding stuff to the Bible that just isn't there.

Clay (and the rest of you, for that matter),

What is your response to my point that the world is full of clear evidence that prayer simply does not work? That, if it did, we would see daily manifestations of god's largess, doled out to the prayerful? Miraculous cures for sick kids, restored limbs and marriages, and yes -- ponies....

We can't have a controlled experiment on the effects of God's grace or on the power of prayer BankStreet. We would have to be able to set up two groups for the study. One group whose prayers are ignored by God, another group whose prayers are heard. But since God hears all prayers that just will not work.

We can't know that prayers were not heard, only that they may not have been answered to our satisfaction, or with the outcome we expected. Emerson Lake and Palmer, in the hymn “The Only Way”, pose the question “Why did He lose, six million Jews?”

To which we have every right to ask why our prayers did not mitigate that number. Or to which God might answer that without our petitions the number would have reached sixty million.

We petition “Thy will be done.”

Daddy's Girl's father prayed (real hard) for a single pony. But he got two ponies and a pond in the backyard and a pretty girl. So where is this “clear evidence” you say proves that prayer does not work?

The catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that prayers of petition are heard by God but that “Our Father knows what we need before we ask him, but he awaits our petition because the dignity of his children lies in their freedom. We must pray, then, with his Spirit of freedom, to be able truly to know what he wants.”

Also inherent in your notion that “prayer does not work” is the inference that the purpose of prayer is to get that which we asked for. That might be our purpose, but no necessarily God's purpose.

I am reminded of Thomas Jefferson's quip “I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have.”

Perhaps we could reword the agnostic founder's words as “I find that the harder I work, the more I find that my prayers have been answered.”

For Daddy's Girl's father it turned out that his father's hard work (he dug ditches and shoveled manure and became rich) answered the prayer for the pony, and the grace of the extra pony and the swimming hole in the backyard. An explanation from the point of view of the Catechism might be:

A. Little boy's petition : One pony
B. Prayer : Free will
C. God's knowledge of the boy's true needs : Two ponies, a swimming hole, and a female companion
A+B=C

Now what I want to know is did that pretty girl in the neighboring estate end up being Daddy's Girl's mommy.

The old testament talks of tithing and I dont believe Christ changed that. It also talks of respecting the Sabbath. Christ sort of changed that when he and the disciples were picking grain on the sabbath. However, the ten commandments are still there. One of them says, "remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.' I dont think Christ would object to someone respecting that by being closed. Think about the scriptures before responding. Thanks.

Clay I quoted scripture for you. Why don't you do the same for me rather than these vague comments. Quote the scripture that says "Give at least ten percent to the Lord and stay closed on Sundays."

The "Lord" is not the Methodist or Baptist or whatever church Clay. Tithing was the way the ancient Jews supported the synagogue. It is never mentioned in the bible in any other context. Nor is Sunday ever mentioned as the sabbath. Paul's view reflected that man's spiritual dignity is dependent on his free will when wrote.

Romans 14:5: "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind."

So rather than exhorting me to think before I speak maybe you should read your bible before you speak. Show me where the concept of "Give at least ten percent to the Lord and stay closed on Sundays," is either said or implied.

Either admit that you are wrong or supply the biblical verses. You are the Sola Scriptura guy, not me. So I don't want to hear you babbling that even though it isn't in the Bible it must have been what Christ intended because some tract you substitute for the word of God says so.

Man up.

Dana,

My "clear evidence" lies in the fact that despite what I think we can safely assume is at least a millennium's worth of supplication, on behalf of a nearly infinite number of folk, the world continues on its merry way, subject to famine, war, pestilence, natural disaster, and greed. Surely god would have seen fit to answer at least some of those prayers. And no, it is not sufficient to respond by saying that 'it would have been much worse, were it not for prayer." For many, it is horrific *with* prayer. And to suggest that the murder of six million innocent people in the Holocaust was somehow the best bargain a benevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent god was able to strike with the prayerful is ... disturbing.

It is indeed very disturbing. I don't know how we can quantify the answers to our petitions though. You speak, for instance, of "a nearly infinite number of folk" who have prayed for a thousand years.

"Nearly" suggests that the number of people praying is somehow close to not finite. Now that's a confusing concept.

I don't know why God would ignore petitions for world peace while answering one for a pony with two ponies, a swimming hole, and a pretty girl. My grandmother would have simply said that God works in mysterious ways.

I'll wait for Clay's response before offering a more serious answer.

Clay:
With all due respect Clay you don't know anything about my grandfather. Jesus' comment about the camel passing through the eye of a needle was a big exaggeration. He always did that. Like when he said the thing about removing the great big plank from your own eye before you try to remove somebody elses splinter.

You just made a mistake. That's O.K though. A lot of people make mistakes about what Jesus said and the best remedy is to read the bible Clay. That way you will not make mistakes that put people on the wrong path.

What Jesus was saying is that rich people have to let go of their emotional attachments to material things more than poor people. That's because they have more material things, not because they are worse people. I don't know how you could miss something so obvious.

I will not say how much money Warren Buffett has given to charity because the number is so big it is obscene. But it is in the billions. How many poor people give away billions of dollars Clay?

Of course “none of them” is the answer because they don't have much money. But that doesn't make them less charitable than the rich. The point is you can't judge people by how much or how little money they have. If you think that's what Jesus meant then you need to go back and read your bible again Clay. That is as mistaken as judging people because they are black, or immigrants, or gay.

In other words it is just plain wrong.

BankStreet:
I will never know if the ponies and the pond in the backyard were a direct answer to my daddy's prayer.

But what I do know is that my grandfather paid for all of it. He came here as an immigrant and he worked hard at everything he did from shoveling horse manure to digging ditches and he made a lot of money at it. In a country that hated immigrants as much as Arizona does today he got both rich and accepted in the best social circles. That was a gift from God for certain. Maybe the ponies were just coupons clipped from that gift for the next generation.

Dana:
Heck no! That woman was not my mother. She grew up to be a self centered little gold digger. My daddy said that all she had on her brain was “country club” and a “great big house down the lane.” He said he got “wise to her scheme” and ditched her.

OOPS

Dana,

My reference to "a nearly infinite number" was indeed sloppy. Good call.

Blame election-day fatigue. Maybe I should've just relaxed and watched TV.

I never said that giving ten percent to the Lord is in the bible. You should go back and read what I said. I also used scripture when quoting one of the ten commandments. If the sabbath for anyone is now Sunday, they should make an effort to keep it holy. What is wrong is not what I said, what is wrong is attempting to jump on someone out of anger without even making much of an effort to think about what they are saying. I dont want to argue on here though. Thanks.

Clay,

You "don't want to argue on here"? This from a man whose every posting is an incendiary attack on other posters' religious beliefs or secular values? A man who does not seem to know the meaning of concession or compromise?

Please!

What you said, Clay, on October 30, was “I have gone on and on here about how simple it is to follow Christ and God's word in the bible without adding things to it. So simple in fact, that the last sentence is all you need to know about my faith.“

You have consistently said that you believe that we should not add anything in our practice that does not come the Bible. So make up your mind. If you want to give 10% to your church (Which is not, btw, “the Lord.”) and not do any work on Sunday that's fine. But since it is not in the bible you sound like a fool telling me not to ask Mary for intercession because it's not in the bible. And babbling against infant baptism which IS in the bible just puts icing on your cake.

I am certainly not “jumping on you” Clay. I don't hear you giggling, purring, or begging for more. So it is quite obvious that I have not yet pounced. Nor am I angry. I'm merely corrected your biblical errors and oversights in the hope of your salvation and everlasting life.

Clay I have to agree with Bankstreet. For someone who doesn't want to argue you sure make a lot of incendiary attacks on the Catholic Church and others who don't share your narrow intrepretations of scripture.

Even though you don't see it you also add things to scripture besides Dana's point there is nothing that prohibits alcohol which you have preached.

Obviously God wants us to give to the churches. Ten percent is my opinion of a good amount, and other people may have a different opinion. There is a large difference between deciding what to give, and deciding to be disobedient and pray to someone like Mary when scriptures tell us where Peter and Paul rebuked those who fell before them when they were mortal humans. It also doesnt tell us that baptism can save anyone. It also says in the scripture to keep the sabbath holy. The only thing that is my opinion in these three things is deciding what amount to give to a church. I am not adding anything to the bible. When we pray to mortals and believe that baptism does something to make a person closer to God or ignore that it is the sabbath, we are adding things to the bible, because we are being disobedient to what the bible says. God bless.

Clay how can one be disobedient when the Bible does not mention something. Peter & Paul rebuked being worshipped. I’m quite sure they had no problem with people asking them to pray for them. The Catholic Church does not teach Baptism saves anyone. Until you mentioned it I had never heard that and I’ve been Catholic all my life and was educated in Catholic schools. If you are not adding to the Bible then please quote for me where the following are in the Bible

Prohibition on drinking
Prohibition on asking Mary or the saints to pray/intercede for us to God
Prohibition on having any statues or artwork in churches
The Bible contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness. (Sole Source or Sola Sciptura)
Prohibition on gambling

Clay you actually elevate the Bible to the same level as God. That in itself is an addition to the Bible. You also draw your own conclusions from the Bible and judge Catholics and others by their adherence to your interpretations.

Things dont have to be specifically prohibited in the bible in order for them to be distractions from Christ. There are passages that mention drunkenness so I dont see how serving beer in a church helps. Christ tells us how to pray with the Lord's prayer. He doesnt mention praying to mortals for intercession. Why would He want us to do that? I dont think He does. People who gamble are often spending money they dont really have to spend, and although the proceeds go to the church, it doesnt exactly discourage problem gamblers. If pot was legal, would it be wrong to have pot at the church picnics? I think so. So why is alcohol ok? Many say that it is worse than pot. I like art myself but I think it can be a distraction. I wasnt saying that a chuch should have no art but rather that Mary is probably in heaven rolling her eyes around every time someone prays to her or erects a statue of her in the church yard etc. Why would she want this? There is no way she would want this. I think it is disrespectful to her more than anything. One thing about Catholics is at least they go to church and make an effort to follow God's will. I dont mean to sound so angry at them and dont mean to be picking on them. Most of my responses have been to others trying to defend the practices. God bless.

If pot were legal it would be alright to have it at church picnics as long as a separate smoking area were provided. I can't imagine how being high on pot could possibly interfere with sharing a meal with Christians. If it were a pot luck it would actually bring people closer together. Pot heads will eat anything. We would no longer have little old ladies with hurt feelings because nobody ate their ambrosia salad.

It would be inappropriate during Mass. Though we might make an exception during a solemn mass when incense is used. Those sensitive to smoke and those with asthma will have already chosen not to attend. Hashish would be the marijuana of choice for a solemn Mass “with its sweet-smelling perfume and high-ascending smoke, is typical of the good Christian's prayer, which, en-kindled in the heart by the fire of God's love and exhaling the odour of Christ, rises up a pleasing offering in His sight (to paraphrase the Catholic Encyclopedia).”

I have forwarded your idea to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments and was pleased to find that it was already being considered for the Easter celebration. Cannabis intoxication, they conclude, captures the whole Easter mystery placed within the context of the economy of salvation, if I read that correctly.

You sound like the drug baron who built the church in Mexico. If drunkeness is a sin, so is getting high.

Jesus Christ Clay, one day you're claiming the Templars built churches and now you think the grand inquisitor is a construction worker also.

The Templars were involved and influenced the construction of the churches in many ways, one being that they were the first to have images of Mary in their temples. Tomas is an example of what I have been complaining about in the Catholic church. If drinking and gambling is ok, why not drugs? Why not homosexuality? I think it is a shame that people justify these things and they cant see that they are doing wrong. Now you know why Baptists and Fundamentalists preach what they do. God bless.

Clay you’ve attacked the Catholic Church for adding things to the Bible which you claim is unnecessary therefore wrong now you do the same thing adding your own views subjects like distractions from Christ. Reread your first sentence. You basically admit that what you have been saying is nothing more than your own opinion. You seem to want to force your own beliefs on everyone else. If those are your views on alcohol, art and other things that is fine, but there is no basis in scripture to support them. Why compare something illegal to something legal? Could it be your realize that scriptures don’t support your alcohol free comments so you need another way to try support your views. You’ve spent large amounts of time on scripture as the basis for everything then when you are shown much of your criticisms have no basis in scripture you basically try and say things don’t have to be in scripture to be a problem. How can you then attack the Catholic Church for adding things not in scripture when you are doing the same? For that matter how do you know what distracts any Christian other than yourself. That brings us back to that whole judgment issue that you seem to want to ignore. Maybe you should consider that it’s you who are the one distracted. Distracted by your need to criticize any Christian denomination which does not see things they way you, and I presume your church does. That sounds rather prideful wouldn’t you say?

"You sound like the drug baron "

Clay do you think making such comments is something Christ would approve of doing? I'm pretty sure what you just said is a sin as well so maybe you should worry about the log in your eye.

Clay,

Not to beat a dead horse, but if gluttony is a sin, then is it wrong for churches to host meals? Surely, people overeat at church suppers -- probably a lot more than get drunk at Zion Lutheran's beer taps. Or is this just another case where, if Clay doesn't do it, it's a sin?

Clay,

I ralize it's tough to sling sanctimony with your mouth full, but when you can pull yourself away from the church-basement buffet, I'd be curious as to your response to my question.

Clay,

Your silence speaks very loudly. You give new meaning to "cafeteria christian." As I suspected, it's not a sin if Clay likes it.

Sorry if I disturbed your meal. Here's a napkin. You have gravy on your chin.

Gravy. Indeed.

Lord knows it's not beer. Heaven knows, that would be a sin.

I wasn't recruiting him BankStreet, were you???

Certainly not.

Just trying to get him to admit his inconsistency and/or hypocrisy.

Did anyone ever consider that most of the posters here are a bunch of unhappy guys, probably mostly single, who dont make many efforts to date women? If gay people are so happy, why do they use so much alcohol and drugs? A past friend of mine from high school (I havent seen Bob in quite awhile) said that as soon as his (gay) friends come over "they head right for the liquor cabinet." And people are complaining because I dont believe it is right for alcohol to be served at church functions, even though Christ drank wine? The men I saw at the Catholic church were kind of falling all over one another, and it wasnt due to homosexuality. Keep away from temptation and it is easier to not sin. It is sort of like Europe in a way. They dont allow guns, so less people are killed by them. Thanks.

You didn't see people “kind of falling all over one another” drunk at a Catholic church Clay. That is a lie and you know it. The same little demon that you worship who told you to plagiarize in the previous thread told you to lie in this thread. You poor little man that you must stoop so low. Push the little red dude off of your shoulder and tell him to take his Catholic baiting gay bashing forked tongue with him.

And thanks for wiping your chin, btw.

You seem to be the unhappy one hear Clay. BankStreet is a non believer and I am a devout Catholic. Take a clue from how we can get along well and even share good humor. Anonymous has a slightly more scholarly tone but it could not be described as unhappy. Torquemada is a fun loving inquisitor.

Clay,

I'm glad you're back, but you still haven't answerd my question:

If gluttony is a sin, then is it wrong for churches to host meals? Surely, people overeat at church suppers -- probably a lot more than get drunk at Zion Lutheran's beer taps. Or is this just another case where, if Clay doesn't do it, it's a sin?

And ... for the record, I am a Gay man who doesn't care to drink a lot.

This is where you get it wrong Clay: “people are complaining because I don't believe it is right for alcohol to be served at church functions.”

No Clay. People are telling you that you are entitled to your belief but that it is not biblical. Others are telling you that alcohol consumption is not the same as drunkenness. BankStreet points out that banning beer because some people are drunkards is equivalent to banning food because some people are gluttons.

Nobody is telling you to abandon your deeply held beliefs, only that you are an obnoxious bore when you insist that the Clay way is God's way. It isn't.

I didnt say that it wasnt biblical to have alcohol at church functions. I said, as you say above, that drunkenness is a sin and if people struggle with it, why have alcohol at church functions? The men I saw were intoxicated enough to bump into me without noticing. I was there. No one from these blogs was. Why say it didnt happen? It is like I said in the other blog. If I went to a Catholic service and actually thought that what I took in Holy Communion was the actual blood and body of Christ, how could I liike at someone from a non Catholic church and believe that they were as close to God in their service as I was in mine when they werent partakers? It would probably be pretty difficult to do so. If scripture says that Christ told the disciples that He would return to earth and didnt say that it would be daily in the form of commmunion, why should we believe that it is so? If the disciples were told that what they ate and drank at the Last Supper was the actual body and blood of Christ they would have saved every drop and crumb. There is no indication that this is what happened and if it did, why would it have been left out? Adding things to scripture is not what God wants us to do. If keeping alcohol out of church functions helps people, even with real wine served at a communion where we dont add to the service that it is the blood of Christ, I am sure that God would be in absolute approval. Why wouldnt He? God bless.

Clay,

If gluttony is a sin, then is it wrong for churches to host meals? Surely, people overeat at church suppers -- probably a lot more than get drunk at Zion Lutheran's beer taps. Or is this just another case where, if Clay doesn't do it, it's a sin?

Clay so because someone bumped into you with out noticing that means they must have been drunk? Your intrepretation of scriptures with respect to the Eurcharist is common among misguided non-Catholics. Since you insist on cherry picking scriptures you will never have a complete understanding of the biblical basis for the Eurcharist and I'm sorry to say the loss is yours there. If there was no significance in the the meal why did Christ say this is my body as opposed to this symbolizes my body. Why does Paul make the comments he makes in 1 Cor 11:23-29 regarding the Eurcharist. No one has added anything to scriptures except you. You also seem to conviently ignore the words of Christ on removing the log from your own eye first.