Disappointing but hardly surprising.

I had the occasion this past weekend to attend the wedding of a cousin's daughter to her girlfriend (in Massachusetts), in a very traditional Reform Jewish ceremony. The sky didn't fall. The natural order survived. The hors d'oeuvres and dinner were fine. The DJ was a bit lame. A good time was had by all. The brides were beautiful.

Afterwards, I went back to the home (in the Boston suburbs) of a good friend and his husband of four years, where I was staying for the weekend.

Does kinda make you wonder what the big deal is. Oh yeah ... that "sanctity of marriage" thing. And the tyranny of the majority. And idiocy.

It is getting obvious that the end times are here. People are rejecting God's word and authority everywhere. They are saying that God has no right to tell them what to do, that they arent going to listen to it. You can see this all over our society, with disrespect that people have for authority and for one another, the different things that our youth are into, with the pornography on the internet and you name it. The Episcopal church is ordaining a second homosexual bishop. People are saying that is is ok for two people of the same sex to marry. Leaders of some Mideast countries are saying that Israel should be destroyed. Turkey has now turned from being an ally of Israel. We need to be ready for these times and the only way is to accept Christ. Christ said that wide is the path to destruction and narrow is the gate that leads to eternal life. There are many people who join churches and belong to them, but joining a church and being a God fearing obedient Christian are two different things. We can try to justify our behavior any way we want, but Christ is the One who will decide our fate after we leave this earth. We need to be bold and stand up for Him.

Clay,

I'd be worried, except for the fact that folk have been announcing the "end times" for at least two hunderd years. What we may be seeing (Hawaii notwithstanding) is the beginning of the end of faith-based bigotry.

Keep in mind, Clay, that what was proposed in Hawaii (as in every such case) is same-sex CIVIL marriage. Your prejudice is (or at least should be) entirely irrelevant. Your church would be entirely free to refuse the SACRAMENT of marriage to a same-sex couple.

Keep your dogma out of the Courthouse, and I promise to keep same-sex love and committment out of your church. Deal?

Oh...and by the way...I should correct my earlier posting.

What the twice-divorced Governor of Hawaii vetoed was legislation that would have allowed same-sex CIVIL UNIONS. So ... "marriage" wasn't even under consideration. Just fairlness, decency, and equality.

So much for the claim, "give them anything ... just don't call it "marriage." Apparently not.

And so much for the call for legislatures (rather than the courts) to champion this issue. Apparently not.

Clay – I seem to recall Christ saying no one include Himself knew when the end times were coming. That knowledge was reserved for the Father so how is it you know the end times are here? God has never told anyone what to do you miss the point of Christianity completely. It’s a choice. One chooses to follow God. God waits for us to choose to follow him and submit to his will. Christ also said love your enemies and those who despise you. He said not to judge others, but remove the log from your own eye. Where exactly did Christ tell us we should be God fearing? Helping someone turn to God and away from sin and judging others are also two different things and far too often you are doing the latter. Standing up of Christ doesn’t mean judging others, making biased and bigoted comments or making baseless accusations against people or other Christian denominations you know nothing about. Maybe you should spend more time looking at the path you are on before you comment on the path others are on.

It's fine with me if the “end times” are coming Clay. Though I'll miss our little chats.

About 3/4 of the comments I left above are from a sermon I heard yesterday on the local Christian radio station. The other 1/4 are from a sermon I heard today on the same station, different pastor. Thanks.

It seems to me that if you're O.K. with your relationship with God then the "end times" are nothing to worry about.

I wonder what your radio pastors are worried about!

Clay - That doesn't really answer my questions about the substance of your post. You don't mention the station or the names of the pastors whose sermon you are using. If you are going to quote the words of others you really should make that clear from the beginning. Personally I'd rather be a God loving Christian that a God fearing one myself. Regardless of whose words they are that doesn’t change anything I said in my previous response except to add two more people to my suggestion of spending more time looking at the path they are on before commenting on the path others are on. The best witnessing any Christian can do is by example and making “chicken little” like threats of the end coming and painting God as vengeful desiring to be feared in not much of a witness.

I think the radio pastors (who one is a pastor here at a local church the other has been on the radio for years) are concerned for the spiritual wefare of the listeners. Absolutely, they say that they arent concerned for themselves, that they know where they are going, but they want to spread the word. One said that once a man started coming to the church and seemed on fire for God and then all of a sudden dropped out. He died a little while later. There was no evidence that the ever accepted Christ, although of course we dont know that for sure. The pastor looked at it as a tragedy, and I am sure he feels a little responsible in some way because he feels that God appointed him to the position.

I would never get on the religious highway of judgementalism , but I also believe that marriage is a union between a man a woman and as weak as it is it should be protected, To the religious inclined put your religious text away the earth does not care about your man written text .

Clay – What does that have to do with my comments? I never assumed what their motives were in what was said. I am in no position to judge their motives that is for God. I am questioning what was said not why it was said. You seem to be attempting to take the discussion in a different direction rather than address my concerns. How can they or anyone else know the end times are coming if Christ said only the father knows? Where are we told to be God fearing? Does God want us to fear him or love him? It would appear neither you nor the pastor know if the man accepted Christ. Yet you both presume he did not based solely on the fact he dropped out of the pastor’s church. While that is one possibility it is also possible he simply found a different church. Who are is he or you to comment on the faith of others? What tends to drive people away from evangelicals is their preoccupation with judging and focusing on the negative. Do you remember what Christ said were the greatest commandments? One word is in both and I didn’t see it anywhere in your post of the pastors comments.

If they say that “they aren't concerned for themselves, that they know where they are going” I would be immediately suspect.

Presumption on God's mercy is vainglorious and therefore sinful. I think the real tragedy is that one man would presume to guess, even while admitting that he doesn't know for sure, whether another had ever accepted Christ. It starts out as none of his business and ends up just plain gossip.

If the end is near I pray only for the attitude of St. Elizabeth Ann Seton:

“In the meantime, that Kingdom come. Every day I ask my bête-soul what I do for it in my little part assigned, and I can see nothing but the smile, caress, be patient, write, pray and WAIT before him. Oh, God, God, God, my blessed God, that Kingdom come!” (Emmitsburg, MD Aug 1818)

kwolf443 when did you become the Earth's spokesperson?

ROBERT GEORGEOUS TV ALERT:

Hi friends of banjo playing and traditional marriage, I am having my employee Tom post these alerts to let you know that I have appeared yet again on the Glenn Beck Show. Everything I discussed there will help us understand the brave work of the governor in Hawaii. But first did you know that I am such a specialist in Natural Law that I can both occupy an academic chair named after a famous President, and participate in defaming and denigrating his name? Yes, it's true. I occupy the Woodrow Wilson Chair, and I appear regularly on Glenn Beck's show who calls Wilson the source of all American evil in the modern era. Glenn even referred to Wilson' great evil when he introduced me. Did I protest greatly. of course not. You see, this is the special talent I have developed. I both praise religious freedom and specialize in a philosophical view which doesn't fit obviously with it. That is similar to how I occupy the Wilson Chair and yet participate in the destruction of his reputation by way of Glenn Beck. It is all part of being a conservative and being able to read deeper meanings into things which you can explain to others. Most people can't understand these paradoxes
but they can understand hating gay people. Ooops, I mean loving gay people by fighting their rights, and for traditional marriage. This is why they especially shouldn't be able to get married in Hawaii and why I am making a special push to have people sign my Manhattan Declaration there. Hawaii connotes fun and good times to people, and we especially don't want people to think that being gay is fun. It follows by Natural Law that gay people should be unhappy and if they live in Hawaii they should be celibate. This is why I occupy the Woodrow Wilson Chair, to engage in great thoughts like this!

Robert Georgeous, Projected American Principle, Inc

Check out the video of my appearance on Glen Beck's show on our website, along with postings about those rich, fat -cat ,overpaid Federal employees whose pensions should be cut. When I realized that some of them make more money in the government than a right-wing professor, boy was I pissed!

Georgeous, you sound worse than Jim Morrison at the Miami concert. Speaking of government, did anyone hear about the provision in the health care bill that would add the contribution of your employer for your health care to your federal income next year on the W2's? It would certainly decrease what we are getting back. It is supposedly section 9002.

Anonymous (coward) : because I got a message from the and it said your nuts.That's why I am the spokeman for the earth your just mad because I am not agreeing with your gay point of view that's all If I we're saying hoorah for gay marriage you would not have anything to say.

Clay,

But at least I didn't show my penis.

Robby Georgeous

Clay,

Not that health care and tax policy are at all germane to this discussion....but you should know that you are mistaken (or outright lying) about Section 9002.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/HR3590.asp

Clay, perhaps you shouldn't get economic news from radio pastors.

Or at least do some research before you publish unfounded rumors.

The radio pastors werent the source of the info on section 9002. What does section 9002 say? I cant get it here because it is surfed out. And Jim Morrison never showed his either, a lot of guys here seem to want to though. Thats one of the reasons I get on here and witness.

Kwolf443,

Glad to hear that you aren't on "the religious highway of judgementalism."

I guess that means you have no problem with CIVIL same-sex marriage, since it has NOTHING to do with religion or your own marriage.

Clay, I tried to cut and paste the contents of the Snopes page here, but, apparently, Snopes doesn't allow that.

Here's the gist:

In general, beginning in 2018, HR 3590 imposes a 40% excise tax on the value of employer-sponsored medical insurance that exceeds a given threshold (inially $27,500 annually). ALthough "the aggreagate cost of applicable employer group health coverage" will be reported on the employee's W2 forms, the excise tax will be paid by the insurance company, not the employee, and is initially expected at affect fewer than 10% of families covered by health insurance.

* * * * *

The $27,500 threshold is well above the current average of $13,400 for a family plan. By 2016, more than 80 percent of all family plans are expected to fall below the threshold. In the following years, the tax threshold would rise more slowly than the likley rate of inflation in medical costs, which could mean the plans of millions of workers -- a small minority of the workforce -- would be subject to the tax in theory.

More likely, insurers will drop their premiums just below the threshold. They could do that by setting higher deductibles and co-payments, amnaging access to care more tightly, or reducing benefits.

Media Madness: Larry Mahoney saw the makings of copy first, his article appeared on March 3, 1969 as a review of the concert in The Miami Herald. "The hypnotically erotic Morrison, flaunting the laws of obscenity, indecent exposure and incitement to riot, could only stir a minor mob scene toward the end of his Saturday night performance." The rhetoric went on to fill three columns; "It was not meant to be pretty. Morrison appeared to masturbate in full view of his audience, screamed obscenities and exposed himself. He also got violent, slugged several of Thee Image officials and threw one of them off stage before he himself was hurled into the crowd." Once the article appeared in print, the press fanned the
flames by calling local politicians and demanding to know what they intended to do about the outrage. The police were turned to for an explanation of their indifference to the well-being of the community youth. A group of high school students decided to hold a Rally for Decency at the Orange Bowl. The event caught national attention, prompting a letter of appreciation from President Nixon and offers to appear on national television. The FBI played it's own clandestine part by issuing a report on "Possible racial violence major urban areas" documenting "Morrison's effort to provoke chaos among a huge crowd of young people."

On Wednesday, March 5, the city of Miami issued a warrant for the arrest of James Douglas Morrison. The complaint was signed by an office boy who had attended the show and worked for the state attorney. Officially, six warrants were sworn out by the Dade County State Attorney's Office: A felony charge of lewd and lascivious behavior and five misdemeanors; two counts of indecent exposure, two of public profanity and one of public drunkenness.

The effect on The Doors future was immediate. Miami was to be the beginning of a major tour of the United States. Once the news spread from Miami, one by one the concert halls canceled their upcoming contracts with the controversial rock group. Even Morrison's long standing allegiance with the rock press disintegrated. RollingStone led the circus by publishing the infamous "Wanted in Dade County" cover photo and followed up with an article entitled "Morrison's Penis is Indecent." Radio stations began to drop air play of their records. In the agonizing 18 months that lay ahead before Morrison stood before a jury to be judged, the masses were seduced into staging their own collective crucifixion.

kwolf443 or should I call you the official spokesperson for the earth? I haven't stated my point of view so how do you know you are disagreeing with it? Do you possess mind reading abilities? is that how you know what the earth wants? You're just pissed because I question your arrogance in anointing yourself spokes person rather than simply stating the obvious that it's nothing but your own opinion.

So Bankstreet, you meant to say 2011 and not 2018? By 2018 the costs of health care plans could be above the threshold anyway. What will the threshold be before 2018? I read that the amount paid by employers for health care will be on the W2's next year, even if it isnt added to our incomes. Also, it is obvious that health care costs will rise if the companies are going to pay this tax. That makes it more expensive for health care for everyone who currently has it, to cover the cost of health care for those who dont. The president sees minorities (like himself) as getting the short end of a stick and feels that the middle class should pay for them and be sure to not pull anyone over in Arizona because they are a minority and that the state should not have a right to do so. It is important to let people know this is what is going down in our current government under Obama. If people gave what they are supposed to for their churches, we would have more than enough to care for the poor. But we cant mention that because of the seperation of the churches from the government that is supposedly in the constitution and isnt? Also these people who cross the border into Arizona are breaking the law. But they cant be pulled over because they may be darker in skin color like Obama? Are these things fair? Of course not. I believe you will see some changes in the election in the fall and the one two years from then. We need Mitt Romney.

And Brickell, from what I heard no evidence ever surfaced that Morrison showed his penis. He was going to trial based on a pic of him kneeling down in front of the bass player. Out on bail, he died of a heroin overdose before the trial came up. I saw The Doors at Merriwether and it wasnt that bad of a concert although from what people said you could hear him scream a lot of obscenties from the rear of the pavillion. I do remember that he once took the microphone and put it in front of his crotch area and then thrust it out towards the crowd. According to a guy I went to high school with who hung around them for awhile while they were in the area, Morrison would drink whiskey when he went behind the amps and then I remember he came out and put his hand out towards the girls and ran in front of the stage, etc. He was almost always smoking pot but he did a lot of acid and that was the problem in Miami. I dont think he was doing it at Merriwether. I think he just did pot and booze, making for a fairly normal concert to a certain extent. Then later he got into heroin which was the final straw. I believe that he was a very talented performer, but he was very satanic. Why? Mainly because of the drugs and booze. He also said that the spirit of a native American entered his body when his family passed an auto accident out west where a native American was killed. He definitely was different from the get go, and he always blamed the strictness of his parents who he said that he hated. The perfect formula for making money at the time people were looking for something different, but of course money wasnt that important to him. It is a shame what drugs and booze can do to people. Satan loves it when we get high or drunk. What Jim Morrison realized was just that, and he unfortunately agreed to become an agent for the cause.

Clay,

The clause does not go into effect until 2018.

Clay,

You are hopeless. I weep for my nation if you represent what passes for an informed electorate. I mock religion if you are its best representative.

Clay,

As a someone who has just been watching the proceedings here for a while, I must say you are my favorite. Your take on what is satanic seems a tad broad. But for giggles can I suggest that you go to Youtube and check out the following video, quite brilliant I believe, which treats a conundrum of modern religion very well. The meeting of undirected energy of youth, and the potential corruptions of established religious figures. Somehow it seems right on point for this discussion.

Check it out: on Youtube

"Vatican Vision TV with Father Flannigan, SJ"

Clay,

Let me give it to you in the Dick-and-Jane version (apparently anything above a fourth-grade reading level is too tough for you):

- The law goes into effect in 2018.
- It applies only to very expensive ("Cadillac") health plans.
- The insurance company pays a 40% tax (not the employee).
- It may have the effect of reducing benefits to those employees with those benefits.
- It will probably have no effect on you or me.

Your racism is repugnant. I hope you enjoy your lily-white heaven. I'm sure glad I won't be there with you.

Clay – How did we get on Health Care from a post on Hawaii's governor vetoing permitting same-sex civil unions? Since you decided to raise the issue health care costs were already raising at an alarming rate before the government got involved. While I don’t think the plan passed is the answer either you need to stop listening to conservative pundits who misrepresent what the legislation does and does not do. How do you know what the president sees? Who said minorities can’t be pulled over in Arizona? The issue is does the state have the right to make and or enforce immigration laws. Your comments sound racist Clay. The only one talking skin color here is you. Tithing will not solve poverty Clay. Far more would need to be done in terms of giving to do that. Clay what exactly do you think the establishment clause means if not to keep church and state separate? Did you know Mitt Romney was heavily involved in creating the nation's first universal health care program while governor. He has also supported abortion and gay rights in the past. Just thought you might want to know that about the man you keep touting so heavily.

Bankstreet, you are starting to sound like Judy Garland at Merriwether. She was too drunk and high on pills to perform. Before the show they brought her up on a golf cart to get a hot dog in hopes of sobering her up. A buddy of mine was working the stand and gave her a napkin and said, "here Judy, sign this." He was money oriented and thinking of what it may be worth in the future. She signed it, and he later sold it for 350 dollars I believe. What a tragedy. And booze and drugs got her also. Another problem that she had was that her husbands were bisexual or gay or whatever. She was never happy, and ended up becoming associated with the gay movement. It doesnt seem like you are happy either. I dont believe my post above shows racism at all. If anything, it shows racism on the part of Obama, who seems to believe that if people are a minority, that perhaps we should look the other way if they break the law. The bottom line about the insurance thing is that anytime a company like these companies has to pay more, they can jack up the rates for all of us, under the threshold or not. That way guess what? Poorer people can end up paying part of the increased health care cost for the wealthy plans that are now being taxed. The companies may not want to just jack up the rates for them. After all, we all know how the rich get their breaks. That doesnt sound fair, even coming from non Christians.

Clay,

Unlike Judy Garland, I don't need drugs or booze to perform. Nor do I sing, so I doubt I "sound like Judy Garland."

I am a happy Gay man, Clay. Coming out as a Gay man was the best decision I ever made. I am completely comfortable with my sexuality. I know how this must frustrate you.

OK...I'll come clean....

I'd be a lot happier if --

- I had a man in my life
- I could pay my bills more easily
- I got more satisfaction from my job
- I lived in a world without idiots

“Out of common sense and fairness, our laws should allow willing workers to enter our country and fill jobs that Americans are not filling.” (George W. Bush)

"I believe it is far more compassionate to turn away people at the border than to attempt to find and arrest them once they are living in our country illegally." (George W. Bush)

It doesn't have anything to do with Mr. Obama Clay. You don't like Mexicans. It is that simple. You would have no reason to mention skin color if that were not so.

Clay how could "But they cant be pulled over because they may be darker in skin color like Obama? " be interpreted as anything but racist? As for your comments regarding Obama and the Arizona immigration law even Fox news hasn’t distorted the story as much as you. Where do you get your information?

Clay gets his "information" from radio pastors, Chick tracts, MittRomeyFetish.com, his overheated recollections of Jim Morrison at Merriweather, and the voices in his head.

Clay are you kidding? You don't see how your mentioning skin color is racist. It's obvious you have a problem with the president being Afrian American how else do you explain the "darker in skin color like Obama" comment." Here;s a thought for you. Instead of looking for Satan tripping up others look in a mirror because you certainly are doing a great job making Christians look like petty narrow minded racists.

BankStreet. Men can be a whole lot of work. Choose carefully.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Njv9CtLHG1o

If the president says that there should be no racial profiling in Arizona, how could anyone racial profile if they dont pull over someone of a different race? If 99 percent of the Mexicans coming into the country illegally are Hispanic, how could someone be asked if they are in the country illegally, by asking them for papers, without being able to be accused of racial profiling? What I asked above was that is the president saying that we shouldnt pull minorities over, just because they look Mexican? Yes. He is concerned about racial profiling. What else could he mean? What I am asking is how they could be asked for papers, when they are stopped for whatever, when a non Mexican person probably wouldnt be asked for papers because they dont look Hispanic, without the police being accused of racial profiling? It isnt possible. The president is the one who brought race into the issue, otherwise there wouldnt be as much of a fight over it. If the people being stopped were white, would he be as adament about the issue? Lets suppose there was a national law against something that 99 percent of the time was committed by whites. A state wanted to get involved and start arresting people for it. Would he be concerned about racial profiling of whites? You wouldnt hear a word from him. It is only, at least as he and many others feel, racial profiling if you stop people who are non-white. Lets get real about the situation. I hate Mexicans? My neighbor, who is originally from Mexico is one of my best friends. What satan likes to do is to accuse Christians of the usual labels. If I say that whites shouldnt be discriminated against, I am a racist. If I agree with what the bible says about homosexuality, I am a redshirt. If I say that we may have to pay more for health care, at least some of us, because of the new plan, I am listening to crazy right wing people who want to do away with everything and everyone that isnt like them and I have been led by these crazy people into misrepresenting the new plan. Dont listen to satan. Read what someone says here and think about it a bit before you respond. And if Mr. Romney supports abortion when he runs, he obviously wont have my vote. Thanks for your comments.

Clay – Do you even know what racial profiling is? Here’s a definition from Wikapedia

“Racial profiling refers to the inappropriate use of an individual’s race or ethnicity by law enforcement personnel as a key factor (or sometimes as any factor at all) in deciding whether to engage in enforcement (e.g. make a traffic stop or arrest).”

I don’t recall anyone but you mentioning race. By the way here is some more information about it from Wikapedia.

“At a Federal level, racial profiling is challenged by the Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution which guarantees the right to be safe from unreasonable search and seizure without probable cause and the Fourteenth Amendment which requires that all citizens be treated equally under the law.

In his February 27, 2001, address to a Joint Session of Congress, President George W. Bush declared, "Racial Profiling is wrong and we will end it in America. In so doing, we will not hinder the work of our nation's brave police officers. They protect us every day -- often at great risk. But by stopping the abuses of a few, we will add to the public confidence our police officers earn and deserve."

On February 28, 2002, Attorney General John Ashcroft said "This administration... has been opposed to racial profiling and has done more to indicate its opposition than ever in history. The President said it’s wrong and we’ll end it in America, and I subscribe to that. Using race… as a proxy for potential criminal behavior is unconstitutional, and it undermines law enforcement by undermining the confidence that people can have in law enforcement."

In June 2003, the Department of Justice issued its Guidance Regarding the Use of Race by Federal Law Enforcement Agencies forbidding racial profiling by federal law enforcement officials.”

The legal issue with immigration law is do states have the right to pass or enforce such laws on their own. I suspect this will end up with the Supreme Court before it’s over. I can’t speak for anyone else but my questioning of your comment being racist is what you say. Only you are making references to skin color. I have never heard the President mention race. If you have something that contradicts that by all means supply it and I’ll look at it. However, don’t say you heard it somewhere and can’t recall the source because that simply makes you look like you can’t admit being wrong. The reason people accuse you of being a racist or anything else is because of your often misinformed comments. You clearly don’t understand the health plan yet comment on it. You also clearly don’t understand the man you are touting for president. Maybe you should consider following your own advice and think a bit before you respond.

Dana,

Thanks for the sage advice.

However....I fear I'm much more like the guy with the wayward coffee cup than I am like the guy with the gloves.... Maybe that's my problem.

Great video, by the way.

Clay, each time you post you dig the hole deeper. Saying you have a Mexican friend doesn't mean anything to us because we've been listening to your rants for a long time.

Try saying, “Hey guys, I should have worded that differently....”

Take the quotes that Ravensfan provided to heart. They should make it clear to you that racial profiling is not an issue created by liberals, nor was it created by Mr. Obama.

The perps behind the financial crisis were almost exclusively old white men. When they are finally hauled before the bar of justice, I don't think there will be cries of "racial profiling," Clay. But there would be, if dragnets went out looking for old white men based on this evidence.

In the case of the Arizona law, folk are being detained because they "look illegal." Tell me how the physical appearance of a person signifies their immigration status. That is racial profiling.

Clay - You are one of the most racist, ignorant, inflexible, chauvinistic poster I have EVER seen post ANYWHERE, and you do it all in the name of your stinking make-believe god creature. YOU ARE AN IDIOT.

Bobbie Littel - If we replace racist with bigoted it's a good desription of you as well.

It has been on the news that the White House is concerned about racial profiling. If you ask Obama if he is concerned about it, do you think he would say no, that he doesnt care about it? I think sometimes we should do other things than to get on blogs. The best thing about my non white friends is that they are Christian. That may be a good idea. Have a good one.

As Ravensfan pointed out Clay, President Bush was concerned about racial profiling also. The reason our presidents, both Republican and Democrat, have been concerned about it is because it is wrong, un-American, and driven by irrational motivations.

(Fake) Anonymous - Clay is a certifiable nut case, an intractable, absolutist idiot, who broaches no criticism of his deeply held misconceptions of reality. That you are like him, to a degree, is illustrated by your willingness to defend him, even when you know much of what he spews is infantile fanaticism, to which you also, to a lesser degree, subscribe.

I think we have all noticed that Clay ignores you when you rant against him. Many of us disagree with him and he argues back. He does not resort to name calling or personal insults.

You show us again how you have marginalized your self. You choose to attack the one man you know will turn the other cheek.

Perhaps you think that shows you have character. Nonsense, you are weak and conceited.

Mr Littel,

You must admit that you are every bit as intractable as Clay. You broach absolutely no criticism of your own conception of reality. The only difference I see between you and Clay is that he does not indulge in personal attack, whereas you do.

I don't think the posting by Anonymous was a defense of Clay. It was, rather, intended to point out the irony of your characterization of him.

As you know, I am a skeptic when it comes to religion. I know I can be blunt in the face of Clay's fundamentalism, but I try to remain civil. This blog should be about reasoned argument, discourse among grown ups. Let's keep it about ideas, not personalities.

As Clay would say...thanks.

Clay does not respond to me because he can't. He has no rationale outside of his blind subservience to the improbable likelihood that his god exists and that he is compelled to behave in the manner that that made-up entity demands, according to a book written by men, long ago, who thought the world was flat and disease was caused by demons. I have no problem with any individual who harbors such archaic notions, as long as they do not try to shove them down everyone's throat and as long as they do not try to use the coercive power of the state to do so. I will point out the stupidity behind anything such people say, any time they say it, until they stop trying to make everyone just like them. If you don't like it, especially if you also subscribe to such notions to a lesser degree, then you are going to have to put up with people responding with indignation every time you utter nonsense in support of what the rest of us (the truly aware) will not have become the societal norm, enforced by governmental edict. If you are against abortion, then don't have them, if you are against homosexuality, then don't become one (as if you had a choice anyway), and if you think that a form of Christian sharia law is what we need , then brace yourself for a kick-back that will make our ire here, seem like a picnic.

Correct Anonymous. I was not defending any of Clay's position. I do however, defend the way he ignores the small one.

Littel is like the middle school bully. He thinks people are "avoiding" him because they're scared. But they are ignoring him because its an embarrassment to be seen in his company.

Some try to keep him talking so he makes a bigger fool of himself. That's so cruel. Effective. But still cruel.

(Fake) Anonymous - I can understand your trying to make me seem irrelevant, due to the fact that you have no way to refute anything I post. If I was sitting on a rationale that had no basis in fact, no proof, no demonstrable way to back up, then I would do what you and Clay do, ignore the problem, or try (as in your case) try to make it go away through mindless insult. You are no better than the head in the sand denier of realty who goes by the name of Clay , who denies the real world out there, in the fantasy that infects his mind.

Then go right ahead, show us your "basis in fact," your "proof," your "demonstrable way to back up" whatever it is you are trying to prove.

So far all you have proved is that you can call Clay names. Is that what you set out to prove?

Boy Anonymous, Robert is back and you are in your element--he wakes you up from your slumber and gives you a reason to live! Welcome back, Robert. these blogs haven't changed much--God is still the central theme--the existence of this god is a given--those who don't believe are in the margins. Polite dialog is all the rage with the religious and the irreligious--except when it comes to heckling back at the same pace and intensity of the so called rude, the religious can't be beat. Your friend Ravensfan is at it at an infuriating speed. Never a dull moment--LaRocca is master of catholic ceremonies--she simply cannot be dwarfed when it comes to catholic trivia--Anonymous cannot hold a candle to her--it's frightening--I am actually, because of this woman, becoming quite the expert in many things catholic--she witnesses shrewder than Clay--you don't even realize this is what she is doing. The Protestants have a lot of canniness to learn from the catholics. Cannot be beat the latter--years of practice at sleight of hand I suppose. Yes, clay won't go away! His zeal won't fade for the witnessing process--and Abstenonymous has practically withered for want of you Robert! Did you hear? Hitchens may be paying for his irreligiosity--if there is such a word--he suffers now from esophageal cancer--the religious are praying, most magnanimously for his soul and his recovery. Why? They will tell the Atheists that unlike the unbelievers they are guided by the mercy and benevolence of the lord.. thus goes life! Where have you been? Did the carping mob and Abstenonymous drive you out or were tired of the cat calls for politeness from you? Sometimes the dialog here smells and tastes like Aunt Jemima's syrup. They want you Robert, to be molasses on their plates. "Ah!" you must say, "I love you all! I return a new man! I have discovered god while I have been away! A spirit entered my soul on my way to Cyprus as I sat in the business class of British Airways! It came to me with blinding force! It spoke to me in many tongues and told me it would crash the plane where I was seated unless I accepted Jesus as the only begotten son of god. I trembled in my boots! I fell to my knees! I turned my eyes heavenward--or where the heavens are supposedly located. There and then I accepted the lord! My plane did not crash! I have returned a new man to parlay with all of you and lay bare my redeemed soul to you pilgrims. Accept me!" Now if you said something akin to that Robert the mobs will get off your back and give thanks to the lord for your transformation and your transcendence! But alas that would never occur and for the rest of your time on these blogs Abstenonymous will be at your throat and everyone will be lecturing you ad infinitum on your manners or lack thereof. But again welcome back! You do enliven these blogs with much chilli powder on the Aunt Jemima mode of embellishment. Ravensfan will secretly revel he has you to roast over his catholic coals and LaRocca will deliver you a stern lecture or scold you in her prim and proper pedantic fashion--pedantism? that is her specialty--but what shocks me is this--BankStreet an unbeliever not in your corner? All is lost! The religious control the world and rule as authoritarians and when they join hands Attila the Hun is a pussy cat in comparison.
R Anon

Shocking isn't it.

I am not in Mr Littel's "corner."

This is not, however, because I have somehow been seduced by the believing community. I am not convinced of the existence of God. I regard the Bible as, at best, a (very) selectively useful moral guide and, at worst a collection of myths parallel to numerous other such collections amassed over the millennia by men seeking meaning for the universe. The Bible is used by many to inflict pain and injustice. In sum, I believe that religion has wrought more harm than good through history and that the world would be a better place without it.

But I am not in Mr Littel's "corner" because I regard this forum as neither a pugilistic arena or as an undisciplined brawl. Rather, I see it as an opportunity to share ideas about religion and how it manifests itself in daily life and how it affects us all. I don't need to "come out swinging," spewing invective. Those who have read my posts here know I am not a believer. My thoughts come from my confidence in my position. I realize nothing I say here will make an unbeliever of a person of faith. I also know that mockery and personal attack is a sign of weakness (or of a paucity of other more credible argument).

So, no, I am not in Mr Littel's "corner." I there not be "corners" at all.

R Anon - Sorry to have left you in the lurch. I was busy with my annual fishing trip to British Columbia. Didn't use a bit of technology (outside of a fly-rod) for weeks, except on trips between rivers.

Religionists are so predictable, but I did have some Mormons and some Jehovah's Witnesses try to engage me while on the road, so I did get some entertainment out of their attempts to corrupt my mind.

Ah BankStreet,
Let there be pugilism and invective, let there be corners full of light and darkness--like the Hindus say what is life without contrasts--how would we even recognize treacly gooey politeness without the harshness of impoliteness to contrast it with. Robert speak on brother--the polite are sooooo boring that they can bring you to tears--but the religious are really not polite--let me tell you they can be bedazzlingly rude- though the rudeness is usually well varnished with and by the lord--do you find Abstenonymous to be polite--a man is truly polite when he is polite to even those who are rude--but has Abstenonymous ever won you over with politeness Robert? And LaRocca she carries vengeance in her heart. As for Ravensfan--he I must admit is sickeningly polite--if a robber is choking Ravensfan to death he will thank the robber for not shooting him to death. After he reads this he will get on this blog and tell me I am not funny at all, I am acting like a juvenile delinquent--and when he reads that--he will say that I have a good assessment of who I really am--and then he will proceed to tell me he does not really care what I think about him--blah, blah, blah. As for Clay he is truly, truly polite--all homosexuals are disobedient to the lord--thank you--all Muslims are apostates and unpatriotic--thank you-- Obama loves the apostate Muslims and is also unpatriotic--thank you--America hates all Christians--thank you--all Catholics are pagans and not really Christians--they do not obey the lord when they treasure relics and revere saints--thank you--you see Robert he is more beloved than you because--you know why--thank you! Did you catch any fish Robert? Obviously you did not succumb to the seductions of the Jehovah's Witnesses and held your own but I hope you shared some of the fish you caught with them while they were trying to convert you to the lord--now that is politeness-- and I mean horribly bony fish that even the lord cannot keep out of their witnessing throats and even the lord will find difficult to "Heimlich" them out of when they are choking--on that note Robert I leave you to the mercy of the religious merciless.
R Anon

R Anon & Little Bobbie - My last post was July 9, 2010 2:54 PM. Although I agree with the other Anonymous posters comments as the relate to you Littel. You are right about one thing there is no way to refute anything you post. It's not possible to refute the mindless illogical raving bullying name calling rants you go on. As for relevence you are completely irrelevant. About the only person who buys into your nonsense is R Anon.

BankStreet - It's unfortunate that there are those who feel the only way to get their point across is by personal attacks against those they do not agree with. I agree that this as should be an opportunity to share ideas about religion and how it manifests itself in daily life and how it affects us all regardless of we do or don't believe.