Guest post: The image of Islam, under siege
Shaukat Malik is a certified public accountant who lives in Potomac. He is also an entrepreneur and a business and political strategist.
Extremist Islam has done so much damage to the Muslim image that during the 2008 U.S. presidential election opponents of Barack Hussain Obama tried to scare voters by declaring that he was a Muslim and supported terrorists.
President Obama’s being labeled as a Muslim for political advantage is a wakeup call for Muslims everywhere, as it clearly confirms the pariah status of the 1.2 billion people who were born in a Muslim home.
As a religion of submission and acceptance of other religions that gave refuge to the Jewish people running from persecution in Europe to Iran, Egypt, Turkey, Morocco and Tunisia, today, unfortunately, it has been hijacked by the oil rich theocracies of Iran and the Middle East.
The great Rabbi Maimonides -- also known as Rambam – became leader of the Jewish community in Egypt in 1183 and was subsequently appointed physician to King Saladin’s vizier. He lived all his life in an Islamic society and died in Egypt. Harmonious co-existence between Muslims and Jews in 1183 confirms the existence of an Islam that was inclusive and welcoming to all, much like the United States of today. There is no reason why we cannot have Muslim states that are inclusive and welcoming to all.
The question we must ask is this. Let us imagine for a moment that Barak Hussein Obama is indeed a Muslim. Would this suddenly take away his intellect and his loyalty to the United States and transform him into an Osama bin Laden-like terrorist living in the White House?
No religion teaches you to harm another human being. The aim of all of the great faiths is to promote a just and fair society. We cannot say that Moses and Jesus were wrong and Prophet Mohammad is right. They were all God’s messengers who brought his message and wanted to spread peace, love and understanding.
Children are born into different religions all over the world. Clearly God wants you to practice the religion of yourth birth. He wants us to leave the judging to him.
Whenever and wherever religion is combined with government and politics, it leads to atrocities being committed in the name of religion. A theocratic state is the model state for political Islam. Saudi Arabia and Iran are examples of one-party theocratic states.
Dictators are fully aware of the power of religion and have devised methods of employing it to their own advantage. They have substituted religion for a legislature or a free court system by giving the clergy the power exercised in functioning democracies by elected legislators and courts.
As English is the global language of business, Arabic has become the monopoly language of the religious clerics and the practice of Islamic law. Islamic clerics funded by Saudis insist that the Quran should be read only in Arabic, thus keeping close to 800,000 non-Arabic-speaking Muslims in total darkness. An Arabic word, like words in other languages, can have more than one meaning, thus enabling Arabic-speaking clerics to monopolize the translation of the Quran to suit their point of view.
A cleric from India, Indonesia, or Pakistan will narrate the Quran in parrot fashion and impart whatever he has been told by his teacher without fully understanding the context of the verse. His listeners can read Arabic but do not understand the meaning and will accept whatever the cleric tells them.
Doctored translations of the Quran and made-up sayings of the prophet have led to propagation of false interpretations to justify polygamy, the hijab and other violations of women’s rights. In this way, a suggestion is conveniently converted into a requirement; a caution becomes a prohibition.
A woman is considered a sexual predator that has complete control of the desires of the man she will invariably lead astray. She must be stopped: prohibited from appearing in mainstream society unless covered, and even then, only if accompanied by a man she cannot marry. She should not drive, as this is will bring shame!
Give us all a break!
By declaring some groups as non-Muslim, dictatorships and pseudo-democracies in Muslim countries keep populations busy in petty vendettas and battles. This is evident in Iraq, where Shias and Sunnis –both Muslims – are fighting each other. The same is true in Pakistan, where Muslim sects target each other. This is a devious way of diverting attention from the failings of the dictatorships and kings who are usurping and spending their country’s resources on the well-being of the ruling elite.
By abusing and falsifying the image of Islam, terrorist organizations such as the Taliban and al Qaida have forced peace-loving countries to view Islam with suspicion. After the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, and attempted attack in Times Square.
As the example of Turkey shows, kings and dictators cannot survive in a functioning democracy. The military dictatorship in Turkey finally had to give in to the Islamist Justice and Development Party (AKP, for its Turkish initials). By embracing democratic values and freedoms for Turkish citizens, the AKP has succeeded in keeping the power hungry-generals in their barracks, where they rightly belong.
A new chapter in Islamic party development and evolution has been written in Turkey. It must be used as a benchmark by Islamic parties everywhere.
The time is here for Islamic parties in Muslim-majority countries to seek guidance from Turkey, a country transforming itself into a force on the dividing line between East and West, and to gradually embrace the Turkish model of separation of church and state and freedom of religion.
Through this model, the Muslim world can deliver the inherent rights of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness that every citizen – notwithstanding his or her religion – deserves to enjoy.
Comments
Obama + Intellect? First, let's seem fair by not bestowing on someone a title.
If Iran and these Muslim radicals are to be open like the "US" so-called is, than one simple question.... what about Israel?
When will Israel be open?
Posted by: Humble | July 22, 2010 5:15 PM
Actually you subtracted more than 300 million from the muslim population. Now official figures confirm they about 1.55 billion.
If the United States wants to fight against such gigantic number of people who (unlike the chinese)are residents of every corner of the globe, then good luck!
Posted by: Siam Erzuah | July 22, 2010 5:30 PM
If Mulims want a holy war they are out numbered by world wide Chrristians who number 2.1 Billion. Add to that other faiths which Islam has no tolerance for like Judaism, Buddism and the number is more like 4 Billion or more.
Posted by: Anonymous | July 22, 2010 5:42 PM
What is amazing about the simultaneous trendiness and paranoid fear of Islam is the lack of interest in its actual history. People prattle on by way of TV without any knowledge that Islam represented, at least for a while, one of the great civilizations on this planet. But not having had a real Enlightenment, as the West did in the Eighteenth Century, is a real drag on their current history. That fact only bolsters the tendency to fanaticism. But surely Islam is not intrinsically more regressive than many parts of Christianity. But, what is fair to say is that the two faiths, Christianity and Islam, are at different points in their evolution. Of course to see that you first have to admit that religions have evolutions, and are not the same through their histories.
But people will go through elaborate lengths to not admit such evolution. So really we a have few distinct players in this drama. On either side you have fanatics. But in the West the garden variety fanatic is so immersed in a culture with elements of Enlightenment thought that they ape the jargon of the Eighteenth Century for their essentially regressive views. Witness Glenn Beck. In the Muslim world apparently only the very cream of society is trained in such a way that they can entertain Enlightenment viewpoints.
This creates a sort of comical situation, except that it is not funny. You have right-wing idiots in this country speaking an Enlightenment vocabulary of freedom and rights, while their actual positions are
actually crypto-authoritarian (usually vaguely theocratic) while strangely being paranoid about "the government". In the Muslim world you have delusions that are a match for the right-wing here, only they cannot conceptualize it in Enlightenment
rhetoric. Thus the multitudes in the Muslim world, logically speaking, tend to appear more backward than they are. In every age the mass of people just want to have an everyday religion and life, and that usually does not include pogroms. Hate usually has to be fomented. That is why the real fight really is against fanatics like Al Qaeda and others like them. They can whip people up. I think President Obama is doing a better job dealing with that central focus than the previous guy.
Still, it is always important to realize that we are not fighting the whole of the Islamic world. Those who agree with that sometimes say it is because they are interested in lovely democratic spirit. Perhaps they have perhaps not grasped their persistent pre-Enlightenment culture. What more realistically makes it likely that we are not fighting all of them is just the everydayness of religion. That's all.
Finally, since I mentioned Glenn Beck let me add that watching him for a moment today trying to defend against his sleazy Gold-hawker troubles left me with a final impression of the guy. Strange as it may sound, I am convinced now that he suffers paranoid schizoid elements , a delusional disorder kinda guy, unmedicated. As those who have some knowledge of this through their families will know, delusions are usually more weird at depth than the person lets on. Beck goes on about overwrought government. But I feel certain that he is hiding a much more weird delusion. Something along the lines of "Everyone around me is secretly a robot"
or "All of life, including the weather and my personal interactions are synchronized by a computer which the government is trying to control" Strange as it sounds people can go for years believing these things. And it is important to see that the stuff which they say day-to-day is really just a cover for deeper delusion. Glen Beck is going on about Obama trying to do the nasty thing of giving everyone health care. What he really thinks is "They are trying to control my brain again with robotic sciences.' He stares off into the distance constantly as if he knows much more than he is even letting on. Only he sees the deeper terrible truth. He should be taken simply as a very sick man.
Posted by: Peter Paul Fuchs | July 22, 2010 6:27 PM
Turkey liberated herself from Islam with ditching the stupid Arab religion. Kemal idea on Islam is pretty vicious and bitchy; although of course, that great Turkish man Kemal was right.
So, go follow Kemalism and throw away the stupid Bedouin Moon-God stupid Arab-cult.
Posted by: JD | July 22, 2010 7:14 PM
USA must put pressure on Islamic parties in Palestine and Lebanon to adopt the Turkish model if they wish to settele their dispute with democratic Israel
You can never have a party on the basis of religion as to oppose it would be tantamount to opposing God
Turkey has done the smart thing by setting aside 1400 years old draconian laws and embraced separation of Church & state.
By recongnizin and doing business with Israel Turkey has shown the light to the rest of the Muslim world.
However for there to be any succees the kings and dictators will have to go.
Posted by: charles martin | July 22, 2010 11:43 PM
More and more planned mosques are being protested around the country as I read it in today's news. Americans have a right to say that too many mosques in this country have been headquarters for terrorists and those accused of it, regardless of their religious views. The mosques are just another sign of our Christian heritage being attacked and another sign of the end of the age. Christ will be back to rectify the situation. Thanks.
Posted by: Clay | July 23, 2010 6:27 AM
Dear Mr. Clay:
The whole world including Jews, & Muslims await the day of Judgement.
I thnk Muslims should pray in their homes.
A Mosque should be re-named as a community center and used for that purpose.
Please let me know the date when Jesus will arrive on the Mount of Olives and the World will come to an end.?
Do you have any dates for his arrival.
What Rubbish?
Do you really believe all this made up fantasy?
Nobody is coming. When you R dead like millions before us you are dead and are returned to the Soil. If you are a Hindu as ashes and converted into dust .
Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust.
There is no dooms day. It is all made up. Please understand.
I apologize if I have sunk your " Belief Ship"
The only use for religion is self-control /Meditation and there it ends.
Thank you
Posted by: Charles Martin | July 23, 2010 7:52 AM
Clay, if Jesus has duct tape in one hand you might consider hiding behind a larger Catholic, Muslim, immigrant, or gay person.
Posted by: Augustine from the Hippo | July 23, 2010 8:36 AM
Clay, if Islam ever becomes the majority religion in America, perhaps then you will appreciate the wisdom of Separation of Church and State.
Posted by: Camille Quelquejeu | July 23, 2010 8:49 AM
Problem is, every time someone here or anywhere else supports the rights of people in America to build mosques they end up supporting terrorism.
Posted by: Clay | July 23, 2010 9:19 AM
Clay you have no idea how bigoted that statement is. You have no way of knowing that and show why the religious right in this country pose the biggest threat to our nation. By the way what happened to turn the other cheek ot love your enemies. Don't post back you love any believer in Islam because if you did you wouldn't make such comments. Try living the Gospel and not just reading it.
Posted by: Anonymous | July 23, 2010 11:33 AM
When I read the gospel it tells me that the Muslim nation was created to be punishment for the Jews for something Abraham did. When I reads the news it tells me that many terrorists here in the U.S.A. have taken refuge in mosques. So when I live the gospel, one of the things I do is to get on the Sun blogs and tell it like it is.
Posted by: Clay | July 23, 2010 12:30 PM
Islam is the only major world religion whose holy books demand that Muslims set up a govt. that makes Muslims superior to non-Muslims and institute Sharia, a horrible way of life that includes polygamy, slavery, mutilation and beheading, stifling all freedoms we cherish in the West. Muslims are one-quarter of the world's pop., one of the most backward quarters, and if it weren't for oil they would be among the poorest also. It's time Americans took time to study Islam's little-known history to see its track record of always working ceaselessly to foist Muslim political and social superiority on all others, then granting them limited rights but never equality. Master Islam's complete history free anytime on your browser with the Historyscoper at http://go.to/islamhistory
Posted by: Historyscoper | July 23, 2010 1:01 PM
Clay Where is that said anywhere in the gospel. I don't remember reading it in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John? It's not in the Bible anywhere. You can't be living the gosel and making false statements like "every time someone here or anywhere else supports the rights of people in America to build mosques they end up supporting terrorism. " How is that loving your enemies or turning the other cheek?
Posted by: Anonymous | July 23, 2010 1:04 PM
Hi Anon. If you read Genesis where Abraham sent Ishmael and his mother into the desert you will find when and why God created Ishmael's "great nation" which has been a thorn in the side of the Jews ever since. Thanks.
Posted by: Clay | July 23, 2010 3:11 PM
Clay, Jesus said ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about Islam. For obvious reasons. Stop using Christ to justify your ill-will. Seriously. Believe or don't believe. But stop slinging hate in Jesus's name. It's ugly.
Posted by: marf | July 23, 2010 3:29 PM
Clay leaving your misinterpretation of Gensis aside the Gospel is in the NT. Aren't you the same person attacking Catholics for stretching the meaning of isolated Bible verses and using them out of context?
Posted by: Anonymous | July 23, 2010 3:42 PM
please check out http://www.islamicsolutions.com/islam-a-quick-introduction/
Posted by: liza | July 23, 2010 11:34 PM
Mr. Malik has hit the nail on the head. I think Islamic parties everywhere should learn from the Turkish Islamic party if they want to have a role in government and mover forward from being identified as factories for producing terrorists.
Today Islamic parties across the world are identified with killers and self-exploding mad-men.
We should persuade Islamic parties in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq to make a start.
Through this the terrorists will be marginalized.
Posted by: RAYMOND | July 24, 2010 12:14 AM
The are times to still use the Old Testament as well as the new one. I havent misquoted or mislead anyone. Abraham sends his son Ishmael into the desert because he got into an argument with the favored son Isaac. It was a mistake on Abraham's part. Ishmael and his mother Tamar have no food or water. An angel appears to them and says that a great nation will be made of Ishmael's offspring. That great nation has been nothing but a thorn in Israel's side ever since. Do you think it may have something to do with Abraham's mistake? Many of that nation want to see Israel destroyed. Israel, originally known as Jacob, was Isaac's son. It is an ancient battle that only those who accept the God of Israel and His Son will win. Abraham was commanded by God to offer up his son Isaac as a sacrifice to Himself as a test for Abraham. Abraham was never commanded to offer up Ishmael. Thanks.
Posted by: Clay | July 24, 2010 2:28 PM
Clay you are an irredeemable nut case--I believe Jesus would run away from you if he would run into you on a street somewhere. That said, it is a waste of precious time to argue with you because you make circular arguments about the same things over and over and you weave a thicker web of prejudice around yourself every time you do it. What the Islamists must do has been clear to many for a long time--democratize, give their citizens more freedoms, respect their women as equals, stop sharia dead in its tracks, open up to Israel--trade with the Israelis--exchange ideas--let the youngsters from both countries meet, mingle and intermarry, stop all the idiocy about recapturing their old glory or ruling the world--the Turkish model need not win the day--each Arab country could form its own unique model but nonsense about world hegemony, demolishing the Western Satan and converting the globe to Islam have to cease. Will not happen anytime soon. Terrorism is a business enterprise. It makes a lot of money for those who create it--it reduces unemployment in the Islamic world--it gives excitement and purpose to those who have nothing else to do other than pray to Allah 5 times a day as commanded by some prophet they never saw--the terrorist in the Islamic world is a double agent--he happily creates terror--sows mayhem and then also becomes the protectionist of those he threatens--making money both ways--as is happening in Afghanistan where men in the pay of the CIA are the very same ones threatening and extorting money from the local populace . Terrorism is not a political enterprise--hardly--it is big business in the Islamic world and Malik with his sanctimonious lectures is on the wrong track to imagine it can be controlled by politicians or governments.
R Anon
Posted by: Anonymous | July 24, 2010 10:06 PM
"The are times to still use the Old Testament as well as the new one."
Too good.
Posted by: Caldwell Hall | July 24, 2010 10:48 PM
At last! Mr. Littel believes in both Jesus and the concept of redemption:
"...you are an irredeemable nut case--I believe Jesus would run..."
Praise the Lord!
Posted by: Anonymous | July 24, 2010 10:51 PM
The worst blow to Islam’s image came from its prophet Muhammad, who ordered 65 military raids in ten years, killed captives (Uqba), raped women (Banu Mustaliq), enslaved children (Qurayza), and made Holy War mandatory (Qur’an, Sura 9).
Posted by: Gina R. | July 25, 2010 7:26 AM
You can never be prejudiced by quoting the bible or the Quran. They say what they say.
Posted by: Clay | July 25, 2010 9:30 AM
Abstinonymous - Having yet to post in this thread, I'm curious as to how you came to the conclusion expressed above, or are you now so clairvoyant that you can discern my thoughts before I even have them?
Posted by: Robert Littel | July 25, 2010 2:36 PM
Bigots say what they say also, Clay. And the Devil can quote scripture. In fact, he does so often.
Posted by: Dana | July 25, 2010 2:48 PM
It was my error Robert. Please don't blame the anonymous you think I am. It was R-anon who now loves Jesus, not you.
But you are next.
Posted by: Anonymous | July 25, 2010 3:49 PM
Anonymous (whomever) - Pick a damn name, I like to know which stupid Anonymous is saying which stupid thing. As to R Anon's feelings about your god/Human hybrid abomination, I think we both have contempt for the ridiculousness of it, and anyone so disposed to swallow that vat of bilge.
Posted by: Robert Little | July 25, 2010 8:49 PM
Bobbie - There are more than one or two of us here obviously. Maybe if you stuck to commenting on the post as opposed to worrying about your usual bullying insults which Anonymous it was would not be such a problem for you.
Posted by: Anonymous | July 27, 2010 11:54 AM
For those claiming that new mosques should not be open...how about churches being closed because they enable pedophiles to pray on innocent little boys. Or they can spawn neo-Nazis...How about we stop repressing one group of people that sounds like a better idea.
Posted by: Anonymous | July 27, 2010 1:18 PM
Clay - That great nation was the Arab populations which grew up around Israel well before Islam. At the time Islam was born Israel didn't even exist as a nation. That's what makes your intrerpretation wrong. I said nothing about quoting OT. My point is that you said "When I read the gospel it tells me that the Muslim nation was created to be punishment for the Jews for something Abraham did" There are only four books to the Gospel and none of them are OT. None of those the true books of the gospel make the statement you made. It sounds more like you are twisting the scriptures to rationalize your own anti-Muslim bias.
Posted by: Anonymous | July 27, 2010 2:36 PM
Well if you dont believe the old testament that is your choice, but I of course dont recommend not believing it. Have a good one.
Posted by: Clay | July 28, 2010 6:39 AM
Clay I said nothing about belief of unbelief in the OT. Why is it so hard for you to simply admit that you made a mistake linking the Gospel to your Islam. It's you not the Gospel I don't believe.
Posted by: Anonymous | July 28, 2010 11:56 AM
Well since Islamic traditions consider Ishmael to be the ancestor of Arab people and the Quran was written later between 610 and 632 and Muslims dont consider the previous books to be as important as the Quran, it sure seems like Ismael was an important figure in the Muslim world to me, especially since Muslims consider themselves as "children of Abraham." I didnt say that there werent tribes of Arabs before all this happened, but it appears to me that Ishmael was the focus of this nation starting, especially since God said that a nation would be created of his offspring and that they would not get along with his brothers. It is apparent to me. Thanks.
Posted by: Clay | July 28, 2010 8:58 PM
So in this particular instance since the Qur'an offers the opinion that you prefer you will let it trump the bible as far as historical accuracy. Is that what you're saying Clay?
Also, since your theory is based on a lineage, a bloodline, and is not based on religion, then it would be fair to say it is not an anti-Muslim statement. Instead it is just outright racist.
Thanks for the clarification Clay.
Posted by: Dana | July 28, 2010 9:45 PM
We have 1400 years of Islamic history to learn from here, folks. It led to the end of a thriving Christian population in the Middle East and to the domination of others by Islamic supremacy, i.e. Sharia law, led by a long series of caliphate rulers. The last caliphate just ended in 1924, shortly after the murder or starvation of many Christians - the Armenian Genocide.
Global efforts today to gain power for Islam is very evident and we should learn from history or we will be doomed to repeat it.
Posted by: Brandi | July 29, 2010 9:54 AM
Clay - None of that has anything to dowith your linking NT books to Islam. I guess your own pride is keeping you from admitting the obvious that you were wrong making any connection between the Gospel and Islam.
Posted by: Anonymous | July 29, 2010 10:41 AM
Anon, as I have said before, it about sums up Islam, not totally but the Old Testament says a lot about it. Perhaps you could put here why Muslims dont consider Ishmael to be that important and why they really dont call themselves "children of Abraham." And also why the Quran wasnt written in the 600's by the followers of Muhammed. We would be curious to know. All you say is the same thing over and over. Thanks.
Posted by: Clay | July 29, 2010 6:48 PM
Anon, as I have said before, it about sums up Islam, not totally but the Old Testament says a lot about it. Perhaps you could put here why Muslims dont consider Ishmael to be that important and why they really dont call themselves "children of Abraham." And also why the Quran wasnt written in the 600's by the followers of Muhammed. We would be curious to know. All you say is the same thing over and over. Thanks.
Posted by: Clay | July 29, 2010 6:48 PM
Friends what difference does it make whether Isameal is the leader of the Muslims or what was done by Jesus, Abraham and Mohammad.
To be honest no one really knows a whole lot about some of these stories people believe in.
The fact remains that there is only one God/Power/Source out there that is making things happen and religion gives us some hope to carry on in this miserable recession and stupid wars we are fighting to protect ourselves from terrorists living 8000 miles away.
Let us resolve to practice our faith to create a loving society.
Let us get out of Afghanistan and reduce the risk of terrorism.
I do not understand why God needs to experiment with billions before sending us to heavan for a life of eternal bliss.
I think it is all made up.
I am totally confused by all your arguments!!
Posted by: Charles Martin | July 29, 2010 8:12 PM
Hi Charles. The bottom line is Christ. If you read the old testament it tells you about Abraham and why the Muslim nation was created. Abraham had Isaac, Isaac had Jacob, also known as Israel, and Israel had 12 sons, one of whom was Judah. Christ came from the tribe of Judah, although of course He came from God really and was planted in Mary's womb. God gives us free choice. Of course many do not make the right choices. Christ is coming back to straighten it all out. We are in the end times now. We need to accept Him, and not accept the temptations of the world. Thanks.
Posted by: Clay | July 29, 2010 9:40 PM
The bible makes no mention of the Muslim religion Clay. That's because everything in the bible happened long before the Muslim religion started. So when you say “If you read the old testament it tells you … why the Muslim nation was created,” you are wrong. First you are wrong because Muslims are not mentioned in the bible, second because “Muslim” is a “religion” not a “nation.”
I don't understand why you want to cling to this belief that is so obviously just plain un-biblical, and historically wrong.
Why don't you just man up and say, “oops, I made a mistake.”
Posted by: Dana | July 30, 2010 7:41 AM
Like I said, if you can explain why Muslims call themselves "children of Abraham" and also why they consider Ishmael so important without using the old testament I would be curious to know how. It isnt possible due to what the old testament says. They were the beginnings of the Muslim nation and religion. Muhammed added to it later with the Quran. And he was one of Ishmael's decendents. Muslim historians have traced Muhammed's line to Adnann, a descendent of Ishmael. Ishmael was the father of Kedar. Twenty two generations later was Muhammed., with Adnann coming after Kedar. It is never good to let anger get in the way of the facts. Thanks.
Posted by: Clay | July 30, 2010 9:13 PM
Also, Ishmael is a very important person in the Quran. Each year in Mecca, pilgrims reenact his mother's search for water in the desert, after being sent there by Abraham. Abraham and Ishmael are said by Muslims to have built the foundations of the Ka'aba, the sacred shrine In Mecca, the most sacred site in Islam. Muslims throughout the world face the Ka'aba five times a day during prayers. In Genesis 17 God promises Abraham that He will make a great nation from Ishmael's descendents, but God also says that His covenant will be established with Isaac. Perhaps the nation from Ishmael's descendents wasnt created for punishment for what Abraham did by sending Ishmael and his mother into the desert because this promise was before that happened. However, before this promise, in Genesis 16, Ishmael's mother Hagar becomes pregnant because Sarah, Abraham's wife could not bear children and therefore gave her servant Hagar to Abraham for this purpose. Now listen to this. Hagar despised Sarah, who out of anger sent Hagar into the wilderness, where an angel appeared to her and said, "You are now with child and you will have a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the Lord has heard of his misery. He will be a wild donkey of a man. His hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers." Later when Abraham's son of promise Isaac is born, he was mocked by Ishmael, causing Abraham to send out Ishmael and Hagar into the wilderness. So the nation wasnt created for punishment because of what Abraham did by sending Hagar and Ishmael into the wilderness. However Hagar despised Sarah to begin the whole mess. Then after Hagar is sent into the wilderness the angel says that her son to be born shall cause trouble for others. Then after Ishmael is born Abraham is told about Ishmael becoming a great nation and that his son Isaac will be born who will be the son of promise. Then after Isaac is born, Ishmael mocks him. Then he and his mother are sent into the wilderness where again an angel says that a great nation will be made from his offspring. So this is how it happened. Now does this show favoritism towards Ishmael and his offspring or Isaac's? The favored is clearly Isaac. Perhaps God saw Hagar's anger towards Sarah as a bad sign, turning Ishmael into a troublemaker. The Muslims consider Ishmael to be extremely important in their nation, as I have stated above. They say that Abraham really was asked by God to sacrifice Ishmael instead of Isaac. Do I need to explain anything else to you or anyone? You made a mistake, not me.
Posted by: Clay | July 30, 2010 10:14 PM
No Clay. You said that the Old Testament tells us “why the Muslim nation was created.” As I said earlier, Muslims are not mentioned in the bible because they did not exist. “Muslim” is a religion, not a nation.
If you are trying to say that some middle eastern nation was formed from the tribe of Ishmael and that his tribe conflicted with his neighbors then that is possible. But it has nothing to do with Muslims. If you want to base your argument on the Qur'an that's fine Clay. Toss the bible aside, that's your choice. But your first argument was: “...the Muslim nation was created to be punishment for the Jews for something Abraham did.” That is neither in the bible nor in the Qur'an.
You don't like Muslims and you want to manufacture a biblical reason for your prejudice. You're not fooling anyone Clay. You do the same thing with every group you dislike. It isn't Christian and it isn't nice. All the groups you dislike are going to share this planet with you so you had better get used to it.
Posted by: Dana LaRocca | July 31, 2010 12:01 AM
I dont know how much clearer it could be. The old testament does tell us how and why the Muslim nation was created. Like I said above, it may not have been punishment for what Abraham did but more for what Hagar and Ishmael did. Muhammed and the Quran came after Ishmael and none of this can be counted out. Also I forgot to mention that inside the holy shrine in Mecca is supposedly something on stone that was written by Abraham. I think it would be easier for you to say that God has made you look foolish on the blogs and for you to admit that perhaps your support of homosexuality and devil pleasing practices in the Catholic church may have something to do with it. Ask Christ for forgiveness. There is no way that He supports homosexuality if His Father was so adamantly against it. He never threw out what His Father commanded, only what people practiced as far as worshiping God goes, for example punishment etc., to encourage people to be more loving. That doesnt mean that Christ is saying that what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah is wrong. Quite the contrary. God bless.
Posted by: Clay | July 31, 2010 10:48 AM
Oh! O.K. Clay, now I get it. It doesn't have anything to do with Islam. You're arguing with me because I'm gay. We have already established the fact that you hate Catholics and that you hate gay people. No need to wear that out again on this topic. Right now we are trying to nail down to origin of your hatred of Islam. Now back to the facts:
Identify the place in the bible where Muslims are mentioned. Identify the rational for your argument that “Muslim” is a “nation” as opposed to a religion.
You wrote: “When I read the gospel it tells me that the Muslim nation was created to be punishment for the Jews for something Abraham did.”
Point out chapter and verse where it says that in the gospel. Rather than attacking my sexual orientation or my religion just support your statement or say that you were wrong. Act like a man. And I definitely mean “act.”
Posted by: Dana | July 31, 2010 11:52 AM
I have said over and again that it was punishment for what Hagar and Ismael did, including in the post right above what you just wrote. Why are you bringing it up? Why are you bring up my supposed hatred for homosexuals? I told you that I dont hate them. It seems to me that you dont have any arguments here, and the reason for that is because you are attempting to argue with the word of God. Muslims dont have to be mentioned in the bible. Enough about Ishmael is, and he was an ancestor of Muhammed. The angel mentions about the nation to come from Ishmael's offspring. The Muslims will tell you about how important Ishmael is. I wont explain it to you again. You are going to have to admit that you are wrong about me and what I said if you are going to get anywhere with Christ, not just with me specifically but with everyone you talk to about these subjects. Stop kidding yourself and get real with Him. God bless.
Posted by: Clay | July 31, 2010 12:09 PM
If your argument is that Muslims don't have to be mentioned in the Bible in order for you to project your hatred against Muslims onto God then why do you insist that the bible says “...the Muslim nation was created to be punishment for the Jews ..?” You can't have it both ways. It either says it or it doesn't. Since you refuse to give the chapter and verse yet insist it is in both the New Testament and in the Old Testament then the inevitable conclusion is that you are wrong.
If you want to accept the Islamic tradition that the prophet Muhammad descended from the tribe that Ishmael founded then, for the sake of argument, I'll accept that. But ancestry isn't the issue here. Your argument is that the Muslim “nation” was created as punishment for the Jews. You don't identify what “nation” you are referring to. You blame poor Ishmael. The same argument could be made against Abraham. After all it was Abe who was philandering, Ishmael was not the bad actor, his daddy was.
Now, again, support your argument that “...the Muslim nation was created to be punishment for the Jews..”
Try to do so without the proto-nazi racial lineage allusions.
Posted by: Dana | July 31, 2010 1:43 PM
Ah Anonymous you lack imagination--for you to conclude that I have fallen prey to both faith in Jesus and redemption because I have told Clay, that Jesus the god he believes in, would run away from him--Clay--if he--Jesus would run into him on the streets- is a big leap of logic--I was simply telling Clay the believer that Jesus--the historical figure, the man with scant respect for the Roman Empire, the man who supposedly went among the poor, the dispossessed, the diseased and the abjectly degenerate would not tolerate a sanctimonious and monotonous broken record of the caliber of Clay--redemption and belief were farthest from my mind when I said that--you like Clay are deluded Abstenonymous! You need to get yourself the pills you have advised Robert. In fact you need more potent pills than Robert would ever need--to cure your muddled head or you need a good dip in the waters that rushed out of the dam that ruptured in Iowa.
R Anon
Posted by: Anonymous | July 31, 2010 9:39 PM
Clay the only thing you summed up is your own pride that prevents you from admitting there are no references close to Islam in the NT.
R Anon - I never concluded any such thing about you. Your opinions of really mean nothing so other than showing your own inability to use logic to everyone you aren't really accomplishing anything by using personal attacks or insults.
Posted by: Anonymous | August 2, 2010 12:55 PM
Ah Anonymous whenever you lose you go Ravensfanish in your whining--if you didn't care about what I thought Abstenonymous you would not have gotten so excited about the possibility I have accepted Jesus and I am becoming a convert to your foolish beliefs--tells me that you care a lot more than you accept you do about acquiring converts to your stupidities Go chase Robert--the marathon awaiteth for you to run where when you reach your goal post, you can pin down Robert and let a wild howl to release the tension from your overwrought bosom.
R Anon
Posted by: Anonymous | August 2, 2010 5:35 PM
R Anon - You need to work on the ego. You think far too much of your own importance. Sorry to disappoint you but I never commented on any supposed conversion on your part. You have me confused with someone who cares about you. I didn't get excited over that or anything else about you.
Posted by: Anonymous | August 2, 2010 6:23 PM
R Anon, it was me who applauded your Freudian slip when you said "...you are an irredeemable nut case--I believe Jesus would run...." It wasn't that other anonymous person as I already pointed out to you buddy Robert:
"It was my error Robert. Please don't blame the anonymous you think I am. It was R-anon who now loves Jesus, not you."
I am correct in my assessment, again you say: "...I have accepted Jesus and I am becoming a convert...."
God bless you.
;
Posted by: Anonymous | August 2, 2010 6:29 PM
OK Dana,
Now that you are playing Anonymous too I will pay closer attention to the nuances of Anonymouses parading in this blog. That said, you seem happy chewing on false crumbs when it comes to conversions--whatever turns you on--to dissuade you from falling for your own lies is too arduous a task to attempt this AM--if all you want to do is be an agent provocateur my reply to you is--YAWN!
R Anon
Posted by: Anonymous | August 3, 2010 10:18 AM
I'm hardly “playing Anonymous” silly man. Sometimes I just don't sign my posts, other times I sign “Dana” and still other times I sign “Dana LaRocca.” All three of us are happy that you found Jesus.
If paying “closer attention to the nuances of Anonymouses parading in this blog” makes you happy, then by all means, pay attention.
Posted by: Dana LaRocca | August 3, 2010 4:18 PM
Like I said before, Anonymous alias Dana alias Dana LaRocca, chew on your false crumbs about conversions to Jesus--agent provocateur--you are more like Robert than you think you are--in fact you are a religious Robert and he is an irreligious one but you both love to tweak, pinch and provoke just for the fun of it....No harm in that--I love it.
R Anon
Posted by: Anonymous | August 3, 2010 8:44 PM
Were you addressing me or him or her R-anon?
Posted by: Anonymous | August 3, 2010 9:29 PM