This is a bad decision that goes directly against the teachings of the bible, with certain people in this church deciding to give into political correctness. Homosexual pastors are kidding themselves if they believe that it is approved by God, and so is everyone else who does the same in any other church. Marriage is clearly defined by God to be between one man and one woman. Anyone who practices otherwise is being disobedient to this and does not set the correct example as one of the leaders of the church, regardless of whether or not we are all sinners. It is no different than a pastor saying, 'well I still drink and I am making an effort to cut it down, hic, but I dont believe that God doesnt want me to, hic, lead this church. So lets, hic, start off with a prayer." It is no different.

Gee, isn't it wonderfully convenient for Clay that both he and his god hate the same people.

You are wrong Mr. Littel (if that is your real name). I dont hate homosexuals and neither does God. Thanks.

No, Mr Littel, Clay (and his ugly little self-created "god") doesn't hate homosexuals. He just hates everything we are, do, and know to be the truth. Not that I understand that fine distinction.

That being said, I am (even as a non-believer) glad to see the ELCA acknowledging the pastoral potential embodied in these folk. I have many friends who are devout Christians, some of whom have found spiritual homes in congregations that have no problem with their homosexuality. Only some of those congregations are parts of denominations that have "officially" welcomed Gay people. People find spiritual sustenance locally; the hierarchical admission of this reality may take more time.

BankStreet - With Clay there is no distinction, just his twisted excuse to justify his bigotries.

Clay,

I assume you oppose cooperation between Christians and the military (the chaplaincy, for example), because Jesus' explicit teachings on war and killing clearly discourage that. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Oh...I forgot about that grand show at the Pentagon you got so bent out of shape about some weeks ago . Never mind.

Yes, the sins are different, but in each case, the pastor is saying that he is living a homosexual or drunken lifestyle and that he is making little or no effort to rid himself of this disobedience to God. There is no way that God approves of this attitude in the leader of a church. Scripture tells us that. "In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." Romans 1:27. I left this here before and someone tried to say that the original Hebrew text wasnt talking about sex but men having some other sort of relations. This isnt true, and here is something from a Hebrew text in the Old Testament. "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." Leviticus 18:22. People who are non believers and always will be wont listen to the scriptures anyway. However, people who say they are Christians and attempt to make an effort to obey scripture need to take heed to what scripture says and not kid themselves into thinking that whatever they do in this realm is ok. People who always will be non believers (and of course only God knows who will or who wont) really dont have business attempting to come between Christians who are trying to help one another. What is their point? I suppose the best thing to do is to pray for everyone. Thanks.

Clay,

Nothing to say about your gross violation of the NT's teachings on peace and nonviolence? The Church of Clay seems to thrive on hypocracy. And on an inordinate interest in the sexual activities of strangers...

Clay, why do you equate a gay pastor with a drunk pastor?

You never make sense, but this time you are way over the top. You are describing a pastor who is drunk at the altar and expect us to believe that is somehow equivalent to a pastor who preaches a good sermon then goes home to his loving partner. That's obscene Clay. None of us want to see anyone doing their job while drunk, it doesn't make a difference if they are pastors, lawyers, store clerks, or construction workers.

We know you don't like gay people Clay, you have proved it over and over again. You manage to post something against us several times a week. Making a statement like “I dont hate homosexuals” in the midst of all your homophobic postings just shows more clearly how very confused you are.

"However, people who say they are Christians and attempt to make an effort to obey scripture need to take heed to what scripture says"

Good words Clay maybe you should consider following them yourself and leave the judgements to God.

See Clay's religion in action at
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/2008/april/conservation.html

Mr Littel,

In the spirit of full disclosure, perhaps you should have pointed out that the Landover Church is a satire site. Some folk have mistaken it for a real church.

On the other hand, it might have been fun to watch Clay apply for membership.

BankStreet - Clay wouldn't know the difference. The parody is just as outrageous as his belief. Reading their mail-bag every month is a treat.

It is you that didn't know the difference Robert. Clay is smarter than you.

Now THAT'S scary.

In fairness to Mr Littel, nothing in his post indicated that he was not aware the Landover Church was a parody site.

Thank you BankStreet. Only a fool would think Landover Baptist is a real Baptist site and the letters in "reader mail" there, are a testament to the number of fools that exist in the delusional world of religion.

Clay, I'm still waiting for your customarily twisted rationale for how you can enthusiastically support the US Military (as long as the Pentagon brass gives full access to your bud, Mr Graham and keeps Muslims in the parking lot, that is), despite Jesus' very clear and explicit rejection of war and militarism .... while you continue to hammer away at loving same-sex relatonships, despite the fact that Jesus said NOTHING on the subject. And don't cite Leviticus or Romans to me. And don't tell me about "rendering to Caesar" -- tolerating a military is regrettable; celebrating it is not very Christian ... or is it?

Tell me about your love affair with the military, Clay ... and tell me ... WWJD, soldier?

I'm waiting.

Interesting that so many are so very tolerant of everything and everyone, except for those they believe to be intolerant. "Tolerance" has become the new religion of the intolerant.

A good friend counseled me years ago to be tolerant of intolerance. I've never had much luck untangling that conundrum, let alone success in following the advice.

I do think of myself as fairly tolerant. Although not a believer, I accept the fact that religious faith is meaningful to many people. I will, in the proper context (this blog for example), cajole, question, and even challenge believers... maintaining what I hope is a respectful posture all the while.

Dealing with Clay is difficult. He couches his intolerance in piety ... and wraps his piety in intolerance. His rigidity is (ironically) matched only by his inconsistency. And yes, sometimes, he inspires "snark."

My challenge to him here, to which he has not thus far responded, is not indicative of intolerance. It is, rather, an opportunity for him to address the charge of inconsistency. His faith, in fact, demands such a challenge.

If Clay were right, you'd think God would stop calling homosexuals to ministry, wouldn't you? As long as God insists on calling laborers to work in his vineyards, the church, as steward of those earthly vineyards, is bound to find them work worthy of their gifts.

Van

Anyone who thinks that God is calling homosexuals to lead churches is making it up in their own head. That doesnt mean that God doesnt want homosexuals in church. No one who refuses to attempt to change a sinful way of life that is so obvious to the congregation has any business leading that congregation. And that is never called intolerance. It is called obedience.

No Clay. It is called intolerance. The rest of us are going to let God decide who He calls rather than let you speak for Him.

Clay,

Good to see you've revisited this thread. Given any thought to my question about your very-un-Christ-like infatuation with the military?

I mean, if you model your life along the lines suggested by Jesus, shouldn't you be working AGAINST the military machine, instead of parking cars for Franklin Graham as he pimps God to the Pentagon?

Or, are you able to rationalize your way out of this one?

As I said earlier, tolerating a military is regrettable; celebrating it is not very Christian ... or is it?

If you think I am happy about war and having to have a military you are wrong. A military in today's era of terrorism is unfortunately necessary for protection. If someone wants to preach Christ to the military there is certainly nothing wrong with that. If everyone in the world listened, perhaps no one would have a military would they? I have never said things here for someone to say that I have an "infatuation" with the military. In fact, I dont even remember leaving that many posts about the military. I do remember supporting someone preaching Christ to them, especially if people of other religions are allowed to preach to them. I have therefore "celebrated" having to have a military? Not so. It appears to me someone is angry about God not accepting their sexuality. Thanks.

Clay,

So. Answer my question. Are you as actively engaged in the anti-war movement as you seem to be in homophobia? Again, the words of Jesus would seem to require that of you, especially since Jesus never mentioned homosexuality but made much of his disdain for war.

By the way, I long ago stopped worrying about god not accepting my homosexuality, since, in the unlikely event god exists, he provided me with my homosexuality at the time of my conception. Would be really weird if he didn't "accept" that one part of his creation. If, as is much more likely, your god is your own creation, the only acceptance that matters is my own -- and, trust me, that is certainly assured.

No anger here, Clay. Even though, I realize you'd much prefe me to be seething with rage at my perference for men over women. Nope (just checked). Just a somewhat bemused regard for your own conflicts, inconsistencies, and yes -- anger.

I guess I would be angry at god, if I believed he existed. But not for making me Gay. Oh, no. I'd probably thank him for that gift. I'd be really pissed off at god for creating kids with Down's Syndrome, cleft palates, spina bifida, cerebral palsy, etc. Those strike me as just reasons for anger at a theoretically benevolent, omnipotent god. To say nothing of the anger I'd have for god creating starvation, war, disease, and abject economic disparity in his world. It's tough enough being angry at nature and mankind for causing these things, but at least without the diversion and distraction of blaming some guy in the sky, those issues could be tackled directly and effectively. I have yet to see any convincing demonstration of divine intervention to reverse -- or even mitigate -- those horrors.

And here we waste time and energy condemning people simply for who they love, based on a few lines of ancient text.

That is madness!