I agree with this Jewish group. Erecting something to Muslims says that what the Muslim extremists did is ok. It is not ok, and Muslims have no business erecting any monument at the site. Wouldnt it be better if they go to Mecca and erect a memorial to the victims of this tragedy? That would be saying something. It is really an ancient story. Abraham and His wife Sarah couldnt conceive and so Sarah gave her maid Hagar to Abraham for this purpose. After Hagar became pregnant, she grew angry at Sarah. Sarah sent her into the wilderness where an angel appeared to her and told her what to name her son and that a nation would come forth from her son and that her son, Ishmael, would be a torment to his brothers. After Ishmael was born, an angel told Abraham that a nation would come from Ishmael but that Sarah would have another child Isaac, who would be the child of promise. After Isaac was born, Ishamel became jealous of him and mocked him.This caused Abraham to send Hagar and Ishmael into the wilderness and when Hagar was out of water, an angel appeared to them and told them not to worry. Muhammed was a descendent of Ishmael and Muhammed's companions wrote the Quran. Today, Muslims pray towards Meccca five times a day. In Mecca is a shrine that Muslims say was built by Abraham and Ishmael. In that shrine is a stone with writing that was supposedly written by Abraham. It is the holiest site in the Muslim nation. Today, the ancient battle goes on. The leader of Iran says that Israel must be "wiped off the face of the map." Jews fight the battle with the Palestinians daily. Isaac was the child of promise, not Ishmael. God supports the Jews, He does not support the Muslims. The Muslims are mislead people who have many factions of troublemakers, including the leaders of Saudi Arabia. The bottom line is this. No one, neither Jew nor Muslim or anyone, gets to heaven without Christ. Christ said, "no one comes to the Father except through Me." The only proper shrine that has anything to do with religion to put at the site is one that honors Jesus Christ and asks Him for the love for our world to keep a mess like this from happening again.

We're glad you support the efforts of the ADL Clay. I hope you'll read the book "101 Ways to Combat Prejudice" and use it in your faith community. One of the ideas includes establishing a "diversity" club. Perhaps you might suggest that your child's school initiate classroom discussions of terms such as anti-Semitism, racism, sexism, homophobia, and bias. The ADL booklet is filled with ideas like this to help you build a hate free world in your workplace, your schools, and your community.

It is through the goodwill of people like you that we can build a world free of the prejudices that wound our nation. God bless you Clay.

One stop shop for everything you need to know about Islam

And, the reason why God created the Muslim nation as punishment for the Jews? What Hagar did? No. What Ishmael did? Not really. It is because of what Abraham did. He could have continued to pray about he and his wife having a child and continued to show faith in God. Instead, he took the servant woman and had a child with her. After this, God gave him a child, when his wife Sarah was well past the age. Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden for lack of fear, listening to the serpant instead. Now we are still being punished for it. Abraham had a lack of faith, as if the God who created us all wasnt capable of giving him a son. Now the Jews, and all of us really, are still being punished for it. Will a remnant of the Jews be saved even though they dont know Christ? I dont know, but if I was Jewish I would be like Neil Diamond and be Messianic Jewish, not afraid to sing "Jesus Christ paid the price" at his concerts. That way I wouldnt have to worry. If I was Muslim, I would refuse to participate in the childishness of harrassing Israel and all who support them, even if you think you are a peaceful person. If I was a nonbeliever, as many here are, I would also wake up to the reality of where I am headed. We all need Christ. He is the only way to heaven and, as He said, to the Father. God bless.

And if I were a believer, I would lie awake at night contemplating the evil and pain my religion has caused throughout history ... that when I wasn't contemplating the very real possibility that it is all an illusion and a fraud, perpetrated on the gullible and weak and sustained by the powerful.

Ouch! That hurt BankStreet.

Dear BankStreet,

What you say is very perceptive and hits the mark historically. The but the strangeness of history is -- especially arts history -- that religion has created a lot of beauty as well. Further, if we take the example of the religion that Dana and I were raised in, the Catholic Church, the issue becomes even more acute. For no organization in the history of the world has been responsible for more truly great art and music than the Catholic Church. No other organization even comes close by comparison. That said, I'm no fan of course. But the facts of aesthetic history mean something, the question only is what.

The answer is labyrinthine. But one can only start by quoting Bernard Berenson's famous admonition for analyzing paintings: "Mind the pebbles."

Peter, given that great cultural legacy of the Catholic Church, what on earth happened? It seems all the new music I hear is monophonic verses with wan refrains, and the visual art consists of banners. Perhaps I'm missing something. I rather hope so.

I like art, but art can be a distraction, especially where we are to worship God. Remember who started a lot of it in temples, the Knights Templar, a secret society. Remember who started a lot of it before them, the Egyptians, a mysterious society in many ways. And dont forget who had a big influence on the art of the Knights Templar, the Romans, an evil society whose influence is still basically the setting for today's Catholic church in many ways. Satan wants us to think of how beautiful a woman is instead of how great God is, and for you gays here, what a man's body is like instead of what God wants us to do. That way we are distracted. Look at all the art in Rome and Greece. Neither one was a Christian society. Did it get them anywhere with God? No, further from God. Not to mention how much money we can spend on it. When it comes to worship, the best way is the old fundamentalist way. Keep it simple. The more art and rituals, the further we get from God.

You don't sound like much of an art lover to me Clay. You must be a very unhappy man. God gave us a beautiful world and put us in beautiful bodies. And he gave some the gift of recreating his creations in painting, sculpture and music.

It must be very sad to be you.

Dear Clay,

I am a liturgical specialist, so I want to help you with you misunderstanding of ritual. Let me draw your attention to the rituals of the Knights of Columbus which were developed aboard the the Nina, the Pinta and the Santa Maria. Therefore these rituals are central to our identity of America as a Christian nation, which is no doubt a notion near and dear to your heart. These rituals involved reading the entrails of of the various fish that Columbus' sailors caught to eat. Also they were good to eat.

When Columbus landed he asked the Indians, where did you get that great-looking giant feather, I want some for the hats of my Knights of Columbus. The Indians replied: "If you save us from our overly complex idolatrous religion we will give you all the giant feathers you want"
Please spend some time researching this, Clay, and get back to me with a report.

Wow, Camille, you have raised a question that fascinates me. When I was in the seminary i was involved with the editing of our school publication called The Canticle. I tried to write an critical article on music aesthetics. The idea was shot down by the older seminarian in charge, named Joe Waters, on the order of Bob Lynch the rector. ( Joe seems to spend his time now getting arrested for drunk driving nowadays. And of course one's natural ecclesial punishment for being thus arrested is being PROMOTED to being head of the local Cathedral! Typical! ) Anyways that is my anecdotal background from my own personal experience in the Church on the music question. Actually this is a surprisingly very ticklish matter for the Church. My interpretation of that ticklishness sort of follows Plato's ideas on music. Music has a profound effect on the Polis. The Polis of the post-vatican Council Church has to be simultaneously lulled into accepting the continuance of a very deadening spirituality, yet made to feel up-to-date. Yet the very real vigor of the old music would in the modern temper stir up too many critical faculties. Presto-Change-O, a new unprecedented musical style was brought forth like a Frankenstein from an evil genius' laboratory. It was a meeting-point between a plaintive whine and a baby's temper tantrum. To wit, I very strongly recall a song called "I am the Resurrection" that we sang in grade school. It had a slightly Tarzan rhythm and a rotting-sweetness of the worst folk music. Incredible. All the kids would shout Rezzzzuuurekkk -SHUN !! The closest thing to it phenomenologically is on Professional Wrestling now when people stamp their feet and say "Cena Sucks!!!" When I see liturgies on TV where they are still singing this sort of thing, it really does make me believe in the Devil.

Not true Anon. I actually have spent too much money on art in my lifetime. God bless.

PPF,

I will agree that the Church has provided much that is beautiful. I am reminded, though, that, under Mussolini, "the trains ran on time."

Even beyond art, I will agree that the Church has inspired true "saints," who have done good works. Ironically -- but tellingly -- many of those "saints" were in rebellion against the established Church, though, and were acknowledged as saints only after the passage of centuries and a bit of revisionism by the established Church.

The goodness of man does not require the Church -- and sometimes persists despite the Church!

As an aside, PPF,

I have noticed that you tend to "name names" in your postings. Do you give any thought to the injury you might cause these individuals as you cast their reputations to the fickle winds of the blogosphere?

Just not something I would do....

Dear BankStreet,

Somehow I knew, even as I was writing it, that mentioning a guy arrested for drinking would cause at least a little gulp. A lot of us like to drink, and it just so happens this guy has been all over the fickle blogosphere for this issue already. If that were not the case, yes, I would think twice. But I already knew this when I wrote it. As it is, if you put in "Joe Waters priest" in Google the DUI arrest is one of the first things that comes up. Anyways, that was my reasoning.

But since you asked, there is more. It is amazing to me that the guy was promoted so soon after the arrest. Not that he was promoted at all. Surely, a DUI arrest is not the end of the world. But to be kicked upstairs SO SOON really is ridiculous and typical of the Church. But I happen to know these people, and I know why, in all likelihood, it was done.
I surmise Joe was falling apart and becoming loose-lipped. He and Lynch were really close, and he knows all of Lynch's untidy bits, and so Lynch wanted to have him close at the Cathedral where he could keep an eye on him. It feels tragic even speculating about it. But this is the reality of the Church.

BankStreet, but let me address your question more broadly, because I don't want to appear to have thrown it aside as
an unworthy larger social stricture. In general I agree with you. If there is no deeper reason, it is pointless to single people out in print anywhere. There are many reasons for this, but perhaps none more important than privacy. But, please note, that the case of the Church is different. I thought one thing philosophically a bit humorous. You condemn the millions and millions of poor choices that have lead religion to be such an often destructive force in human history "perpetrated on the gullible", yet you scruple the bits of info that could inform the gullible otherwise! . But as to my strategy, if I can even call it that, it is more modest. The Church has been able to get away with so much for so long, because those who had direct personal experiences of it did not name names. The fact is there are a million ways in which the Roman Church does not act like a normal member of society. Being promoted for drunk driving is just one. Having a priesthood filled with gay men and fighting gay rights is another.

Yesterday, I saw a video of my erstwhile friend Joe Tyson leading a Corpus Christi procession in Washington State, It was lovely with singing and a cool monstrance and evident piety. I thought to myself: Why can't they stick to that? Have beautiful processions, enjoy your religion. But no, they want to insert themselves everywhere to fight other people's right to conduct their lives in a pluralistic society. BankStreet, this is the reason why I have named names. I just can't abide their attempted intrusions into a pluralistic society with their own attempt
to control everything. I am claiming no perfect even-handedness in doing so. But I do think the cause is just.

Peter