The number of the dead has risen up to 94 Ahmadi-Muslims murdered while they prayed at Dar-ul Zikr mosque. The non-Ahmadi Muslims are so filled with hatred that the news coverage of the event, while they were being shot only refered to it as "a place of worship."

The non-Ahmadis do not call Ahmadis "Ahmadis" at all. That is offensive to them. Ahmad means "one who praises Allah much." Instead, they call us "a minority religion." Elimination through marginalization.

The government ruled in 1974, unanimously agreeing with all other sects, to label Ahmadis "nonMuslims." Hence they opened the door to "Sanctioned killing of Ahmadis."

While the Ahmadi-Muslims were shot during their Friday prayers, posters were fixed to posts near the mosque stating that Ahmadis "have three days to repent or they should be shot in a line up."

Ms Allison Knight Khan:
This is indeed disgraceful. There must be complete freedom of religion in Pakistan.
Pakistan as America's ally in the War on terror must introduce legislation guaranteeing complete freedom of religion.

We have many divisions in Christians and have sects like the Mormons etc but no one is murdered. This is insanity since we all pray to the same God.

Pleas ask more Ahmadi-Muslims like yourself to write a comment here to draw attention on the worldwide web.
The internet is a very powerful tool for spreading the news.

There must be complete freedom of religion in Pakistan.

WE must remember that it was the Head of the Ahamdi Jamaat who in a session of the National Assembly in 1974 declared that Ahamadis were separate from all Muslims and other Muslims who do not believe in their prophet Mirza Ghulam Ahmad are considered by Ahamdis to be non-Muslims.

As a result of this contentious argument by the head of the Ahamdi movement in Pakistan the Bhutto government of the time had no choice but to go with the majority view of the clerics that Ahmdis are non-Muslims and the Assembly passed an act declaring them so in 1974.

In any case this division between mainstream Muslims and Ahmadis should not lead to violence.
There should be complete freedom of religion and just as the writer says we are all born to different faiths by the will of God

It will not do to blame the Saudis for preaching jihadist Islam, even though they are in the forefront of that movement. You also mentioned Iran, that is, the Islamic Republic of Iran. They are Shiites, and they preach jihadist Islam, too. So does the Muslim Brotherhood which is more Egyptian than Saudi. The fact is that making war against non-Moslems for the purpose of spreading Islam has been standard mainstream Islamic doctrine since the time of Muhammad.
The Koran says:
-- Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme. (8:40)
Muhammad said:
"I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, ..."
In addition, the most popular manual of Islamic sacred law, approved by the highest Islamic religious authorities of Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia and Egypt, says: "Jihad means to make war on non-Muslims." What could be clearer than that?
From "Jihad in Islam" by Sayyeed Abdul A'la Maududi, one of the most prolific and most widely read and influential Islamic writers of the 20th Century:
“The goal of Islam is to rule the entire world and submit all of mankind to the faith of Islam. Any nation or power that gets in the way of that goal, Islam will fight and destroy.”

While I find myself along the view point as the writer's and deplore this senseless and brutal act of murder and could not agree more with the statement that an indivdual's religion is determined by the Almighty.
And would like add that more tolerence and proper education is whats desparately needed for future generation to make wise and sensible decisions,therefore learn to respect and understand that all are created equal and no individuals or groups can decide to take ones life based on heresay..
And would like to disagree on comment posted by Abdulmeer quote"The goal of Islam is to rule entire world and submit all of mankind to the faith of Islam,etc.
It may be his own interpretation or words of a narrow minded preacher and not of a learned scholar..
There must be total freedom of religion everywhere in this world and again my sincere condolence to everyone who has lost their loved ones in the recent killings in Pakistan and else where in the world in the name of religion...

Aiff

Mr. Abdul Meer:
Shame on you for using the death of Ahmadi Moslems to undermine the religion of 1.2 Billion people.
Your made up quote from the Quran is incorrect. whose translation are you using?
Please do not mislead and abuse this site. According to your post:
The Koran says:
-- Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme. (8:40)

There is no such verse. The verse is 8:39 and it is intended for self-defense.
For verses(8:39 to 8:40) here are three translations.
SOURCE:
UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH CALIFORNIA'
CENTER FOR MUSLIM JEWISH ENGAGEMENT:

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/008.qmt.html

008.039
YUSUFALI: And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
PICKTHAL: And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.
SHAKIR: And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.

008.040
YUSUFALI: If they refuse, be sure that Allah is your Protector - the best to protect and the best to help.
PICKTHAL: And if they turn away, then know that Allah is your Befriender - a Transcendent Patron, a Transcendent Helper!
SHAKIR: And if they turn back, then know that Allah is your Patron; most excellent is the Patron and most excellent the Helper.

These verses talk about self-defense if you are attacked.

You cannot quote a single verse in isolation I can show you many verses in the bible telling me to stone people to death and also kill. Christians and Jews do not quoted these out of context

It is sad that terrorist in Pakistan targeted the Ahmaedia Community this time, and such acts should and must be unequivocally condemned. However, we should not loose sight of the 800 pound gorilla - rise of terrorism in Pakistan. Over 200 terrorists attacks take place every month, resulting in deaths of 500 civilian and military personnel every month in Pakistan. Pakistan is paying a high price for war on terror. People of Pakistan must own and check the problem of extremism that is exponentially rising, the rest of the world must help the government and people of Pakistan to overcome this problem.

Pakistan, plain and simple is a banana republic. There is no political gain for the Pakistani leadership--selfish, narcissistic and abhorrent, like much of the political leadership across the globe--in dealing with terror as it should and religious divisions as well as dissension, keep the restive populace diverted from the leadership's corruption and follies so why deal with it at all--works out well for the men at the top. Religious hatred is a good thing for politicians. The people should get savvy. They should not fall for political ploys but the religious are nutty. They split their hairs over what some megalomaniacal prophet or other said centuries back--"Ah!" they say, (and this Shaukat Malik does too) "This is what the prophet really meant!" REALLY, folks and how do you know that? Were you there with this prophet when he was spouting his truisms and anachronisms? Did he explain to you in person exactly what he meant? And then of course we have the all encompassing voices of Pikthal and Yusufali to prove to us what the prophet meant! What a bunch of malarkey! Come into the modern world folks. Extremism is only slightly removed from your foolishness. As long as long robed men who claim to have had visions are made into revered folks, as long as the words of many such are parsed and dissected centuries later for meaning, as long as one side imputes one meaning to this or that said when no one was around and the other side imputes another meaning, there will be no end to the mayhem. Drop all prophets in the waste bucket where they belong--move on. So Malik says there should be religious freedom in Pakistan, there should be no killings based on artificial religious divisions--great words! Presto, he waves a magic wand from his accountant desk in Maryland and the Pakistani leadership wakes up saying, "Malik has spoken! There should be no religious killings in Pakistan! Let's clean up this banana state1 Let's bring to it sanity! Let's tell the folks what the Prophet really meant--he really meant, folks that you should all get along, love one another--verse 2, chapter 3 of the Koran says....." And into that melee will enter a bearded imam carrying his Koran and he will say, "You damn political fools. How do you know what the prophet meant? I know what the prophet meant! I know it because I AM AN IMAM. The prophet meant for you to kill all the infidels and the Ahmadi community consists of infidels. They are not true Muslims. They did not exist during the prophet's times. The prophet never would have tolerated them. They don't belong with Allah!" So it is one "prophet said this or that group" versus another "prophet said this or that group." And presto Malik hopes the good group will one day prevail. It may--after centuries but only for a little while Malik. Dump all prophets where they belong. It is plain stupid to extinguish human life based on what some old prophet did or did not say. Religion is completely brainless.
Ravensfan Anon

The Ahmadis are not Muslims. They are an heraterical sect who claim to be Muslims. While that doesn't justify the violence against them, this article falsely claims that they are Muslims.

These killings are encourage due to state laws in Pakistan. I as an Ahmadi can go to jail for "posing as Muslim". Even if I say Assalamo Alaikum greeting, it can be construed as posing as a Muslim by the mullah and police. Thousand of Ahmadis have been jailed under Pakistan penal code for such "crimes". Those include quoting the verses of the Holy Quran, putting a badge of Kalima on their chest. Writing Bismillah on wedding invitation. Saying greetings to a cursed mullah.

Whether someone is Muslim or not is not the jurisdiction of the state. If someone is a true Muslim he should believe that only Allah knows whether someone is Muslim or not. Anyone who says he is Muslim, has the right to do so according to the Holy Quran and the Holy Prophet peace be upon him. So these mullahs and laws are against Islamic teaching and non-Islamic.

Khalid - Have you ever considered that your beliefs might just be a pile of goat droppings, because there has never been the tiniest shred of evidence that a god, any god, exists, or has ever existed. I'm starting to think, having talked with many members of religious sects that think they should kill each other over doctrinaire minutia, that you are all forms of what we call our own intractable absolutist fool......CLAY.

Bravo Robert,
Do you think anyone is listening? There are so many religion devotees here it is tiresome--they come in all shapes and forms and from all sects.
Ravensfan Anon

Robert Littel:
we are discussing the murder of 90 innocent citizens in the name of religion.
This act does not mean that all religions are bad.

U R an atheist. Fine. But please do not behave like Bill Moyer on Television.
U R perfectly entitled to your status as believing in nothing but yourself . That is a remarkable quality. What do you do when misfortune befalls you. What would you do if you became very sick.? Who will give you hope?. What if you lose everything like some Americans have in the Wall street crash of 2008.

What about close to one Billion Hindus who worship God through human and animal statues, what about all the Chinese and South Asia countries that follow Buddhism. What about over a billion Christians.
Are they all stupid?

It seems like you have all the answers.

What if your home is foreclosed?
How do you explain accidents and sudden death?
You are lost my friend. If nothing else Embrace Clay's religion.

Raymond--stuff your "What ifs". After all these terrible things befall you, you say on your knees, "Thank you lord for saving my life!" Then you close your eyes and pray fervently imagining that someone is listening--Robert will close his eyes, talk to himself and plan his next move after the misfortunes you describe--there is a saying even among believers Raymond, god only helps those who help themselves. Do you know why that saying exists? It is man's way of absolving his imaginary gods from all responsibility.. The god creatures are not only the fantasies of men, they have been made up in such a way and have been vested with such characteristics that when men suffer--men say--the gods have not done this--we have done this to ourselves through our sins--and when things go well, men say, the gods are helping us, and when things are middling men say if they pray to their gods things will stay middling and they can be thankful for the bread crumbs the gods throw-you see , no way are the gods responsible for anything according to the men who have invented the gods--then why do we need these gods Raymond? Since gods only help those who help themselves Raymond, Robert will help himself under the adverse circumstances you describe and set these imaginary gods free by not bothering them with pleas, praises, cries and calls. The gods would be thankful for that don't you think? As for the billions and billions who believe in god--come on Raymond you don't think the majority determines the wisest course for men do you? A majority of Germans joined with Hitler, a majority of Hutus went into a murderous rage and slaughtered the Tutsis in Rwanda--from when on did the majority become a barometer for what is right or wrong or for what is wise or foolish--man, the majority is often the mob and the mob is often blind. So don't preach conversion to Robert --go pray to your imaginary god--ask for some more wisdom than what you have before you blog. I doubt that your prayer will be answered unless of course you determine to help yourself..
Ravensfan Anon

RAYMOND - Fortunately, I'm not so brain dead that I must have infantile god concepts to give my life meaning, and to act as a crutch when the normal events in life go against my better desires. You are just not evolved enough yet to give up your silly incantations and delusions, that makes you the pitiful creature here because you live in a fantasy world THAT IS NOT REAL.

Yes Robert Littel and friend from your posts we can all se how much meaning your lives have and it's one big zero. Instead of admitting that which is obvious to everyone else you go around attacking others who disagree with your jaded view of the world and life. Why would anyone choose to live in what you have deluded yourselves is the real world. To be like you? The two of you are the best adverisement for faith here.

Ravensfan Anno; ravensfan; Robert Littel;

If there is no God then I guess the Communists who shun religion have it right.
Billions are stupid!
Please write to POPE and tell him he has go it all wrong.

How do you explain life and death and purpose of life?
Are we like any other animal roaming this world?
Please illuminate the lost and stupid Billions with your extraordinary insights into life.

Anthony - Faith is the excuse for ignorance. Awareness of that fact is its own reward. The opening of the mind to the possible and the limitations of the impossible, is liberating in ways that superstitional delusionalists, like yourself, can ever know. My only crime, in your eyes, is not seeing the world through the myth and delusion clouded glasses you have been conditioned to wear, perhaps since childhood. The search for truth cannot be accomplished if you are carrying the baggage of religious lies, but truth is the last of your concerns, you just ascribe to the mindless joy that comes from the delusional self deception, a pitiful waste.

Raymond - I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion I don't believe but I do. I happen to be Roman Catholic. I'm sure Robert or Anon will be more than happy to answer your questions with their own dogma on the subject.

Robert Littel - Nice rationalization and I'm sure it works on your atheist friends and maybe you've even conviced yourself of that. However, if that were true you would not resort to such rude, nasty ridiculing of others. You post are far too full of venom to be from someone liberated. I never said you are guilty of any crime rather that you live a meaningless life which comes out in your posts. Your life clearly lacks joy, meaning or any meaning. Deny it all you like I've seen your type many times over and you all sound the same. Bitter, angry and desperate.

Anthony - I would not be happy if I was tied to a rationale for life that was dependent on belief in the accumulated myths and superstitions of my less than aware ancestors, that were dogmatized, institutionalized and then mounded into the colossal mound of drek that religionists have the gall to call ultimate truth. It may give you some personal comfort, but the institution of religion is now doing great harm to society in general and it is far past when we, as a species, should have begun unburdening ourselves of the luxury of delusionalism. It is not my fault that you have a need for such foolishness and I understand your need to make all us evil heathens go away, or at least let you have your way by remaining silent. Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen. Atheists throughout history have been constrained in an effort to silence them (most brutally at times) and now that we have found our voice, the abuses of religion are not going to get a free pass anymore. Call it hate if you must, vilify the messenger in your frustration, but you will not be getting away with keeping this fraud going without being called out about it.

Robert Little Do not confuse my pointing out that your choice gives you no comfort or satisfaction so you lash out at those who have it with wanting you silenced. The only things harming to society is selfishness, greed, lust, intolerance and other vices. The only harm cause by religion is it interferes in your spreading your own myths and drek. Funny for someone playing the martyr card you sure make a lot of nasty inflammatory statements. If not hate then what do you call routinely calling people abusive names, ridiculing and insulting their beliefs. It’s certainly not the actions of someone with compassion; love of fellow man, life or of any piece of mind or logic. The only fraud here is you pretending that you have piece of mind and are happy in your life. Do not flatter yourself that you or any other atheist gives me cause for concern. I’ve had discussions and debates with many from coolly logic rational thinkers to the loud emotional who resort to ridicule like you. At the end of the day all you can do is ramble on that God doesn’t exist, hang your hat on human science and knowledge and challenge me to prove God exists. I doubt you can present anything I have not already seen.

Ravensfan:
I thought you and Ravensfan Anon are the same.
It is indeed very confusing when another gentleman is using your pen name at the end of his lectures.
See below"

"Robert --go pray to your imaginary god--ask for some more wisdom than what you have before you blog. I doubt that your prayer will be answered unless of course you determine to help yourself..
Ravensfan Anon."

Maybe you should change your pen name to ravensfan original

Peace

Robert Littel I apologize I was not trying to mock your name on that last post. it was a transposition on my part.

Anthony - I don't doubt that anything you have seen has had any effect on your thought processes. The delusional mind is capable of ignoring the glaring inconsistencies inherent in belief in ghosts, goblins and gods, and be very self-righteous about it at the same time.

Responding to this particular thread was more of an effort to mix it up with the even more intransigent Muslims, who seem to take particular offense when someone disparages their silly beliefs, but when faced with direct challenge, they either scream Fatwa, or go into hiding, as all the Muslims and Muslim like delusionalists seem to have done.

RAYMOND - It is the need of religionists to have answers to questions that we have not evolved enough to answer, or earned the right to, that makes religion as pitiful as it is. False rationales are just that, false. They may be cute stories, but that is all they are, fairy-tales, but they are in no way ultimate truths.

The lack of imagination, the simplicity of your statements, and your obvious lack of comprehension about the real world, show me that you are only going to get chewed up in any discussion regarding your silly beliefs, so the better part of discretion, would be a retreat. Making a frontal assault against people arguing from the logical perspective is only going to end badly for you. Either that, or you are only twelve and need a few more years before you play with the grown-ups.

robert little how little you brain is, it is quite easy for a lame brain like you to hurl question but next time try at least to site an example. to the rest of the lemos merely looking to the past we see a lot of misdeeds on the part of christians leaders/believers but it hardly warrants calling them evil look at the slavery of Africa on a wantom scale that left us improvished till today, was n't it your christen ancestors that did such horrors? where were you leaders to provide moral guidance to the deluded souls that view africans as half humans?

stalwart- When have I EVER made the case for my Christ cultist ancestors? I blame them for giving us the continuation of institutions that should have been gotten rid of long ago, including slavery. If you are trying to make a salient point, it escapes me, if you are an African Muslim (which I suspect) , you have been purchased cheaply by a pernicious form of intellectual slavery, by the only religion that still practices slavery, especially against women.

Robert Littel - Your attempts to ridicule me and what I believe prove that everything I have said about you is likely true. The inconsistency arguement only works on fundamentalist who have literal intrepretations of the Bible. I do apologize if I sound self-righteous that was never intended. I am no more or less righteous than any one else. By all means mix it up with whoever you like. I encourage people to question their faith and values. Blindly following it does nothing to strengthen it.

Anthony - Being even a little bit religious is like having just a little bit of syphilis, only the cure for that is far simpler than what is needed to cure your affliction.

Anthony. Correct on all counts.

Robert Littel - I'll give you an A for effort, but it's still just another Ad Absurdum effort on your part. It does nothing to try and show that your disbelief is superior to my faith.

Anthony - I do not have to show the superiority of my beliefs, because my beliefs are all about questions searching for answers, while yours are about questions answered with make believe fairy-tale pap. So flawed are your presumptions, that to me they are just something to scrape off my boot, so it won't get tracked into the house.

Robert Littel – You do if you are trying to convince someone with different beliefs that yours are better. No one has the answers. Certainly not any one I know.

By definition, no one knows what lies outside their tiny circle of knowledge. To claim you know there is no God is to claim you have exhaustively searched every part of every universe and dimension with an infallibly accurate method of detecting every non-physical entity that could possibly exist. The claim that God has taken the initiative and chosen to reveal himself to some people is not nearly as unbelievable.

Don’t be like a blind person trying to convince himself that because he has never seen, everyone else claiming to see must be mistaken. In the realm beyond your present experience amazing things could dwell - even a God poised to shatter your insensibility to him

Your constant need to ridicule only gives the impression that you have no means of expressing your views or that you are not as sure about them as you want people to believe.

Anthony - I always am amused when religonists point out how far someone has to go to find a god. Evidently the total lack of any proof that a god exists, or has ever existed throughout our entire history, is not enough to be allowed to be a total skeptic about the existence of such a creature, but that dearth of justifiability somehow is enough for people to dedicate their entire lives to an idea that is patently absurd. If we measure the value of my actions against theirs, I'm the sane one in the room.

To Anthony: Being 100% sure that god exists, is like being 100% sure that flying pigs exist. Without proof, how do you know god exists?

To Robert Littel: You do not know how the universe is created. Yes god being a "creature" sounds like a very primitive thought for this modern world, all the religious stories sound like fairy tales. But god in the form of energy sounds fair to me. What Anthony is trying to make you realize is that since you do not know EVERYTHING about the unvierse, the "unknown" and the "unimaginable" COULD end up being god (in what ever form). So keep a little bit of an open mind.

To all of my fellow atheists: Being 100% sure of god's lack of existence is just as crazy as being 100% sure of god's existence. Try to be humble about what you "KNOW". As Socrates said, knowing that you know nothing....is proof that you know more than most. ;)

In the realm beyond your present experience amazing things could dwell - even a God poised to shatter your insensibility to him--and they do dwell dear Anthony and these amazing things are all physical--constellations, exploding stars, stellar nurseries, plumes of smoke and fire, ever expanding spiral galaxies, black holes, red giants, quasars, pulsars--you name it they are all there-- very physical--measurable, although indirectly, their motions and speeds calculable--even a god poised to shatter your insensibility toward him? Keep hoping and believing Anthony that there will be retribution for those who do not believe--retribution in the form of a shattering appearance of this insubstantial creature you and others on this blog call god, an appearance set to shake and splinter the insensitivity of the non believers. We non believers wait breathlessly for this seminal around the corner event. No one has the answer? The god believers DO have the answer--there is definitely a god--that IS the answer. When you start with the premise there is no god then the material world is a conundrum--that is far more humble a position than the absolute claim there is a god.. It is far closer to "I don't know yet!" than "There is a god and I have experienced this god!" To claim you know there is a God is to claim you have exhaustively searched every part of every universe and dimension with an infallibly accurate method of detecting this non-physical entity that couldn't possibly exist !"
Ravensfan Anon

Rohit - I have always said that the major flaw of religion is not being able to say these simple words, "I don't know.......YET!". They have their silly answers, that they have not earned and which have such a low probability of being correct that to ask of me any respect for their made-up "ultimate truths" is not a matter of having an open mind, but of being so brain-dead that I could give it any credence at all. I don't know the ultimate truth and man may be a long way from ever knowing it, but I damn well know the pile of crap they are selling is pure BS.

@ Rohit, Ravensfan Anon, and Robert Littel, do you make a distinction between the terms "atheist" and "agnostic"? Is it anything beyond semantics? I'm not trying to challenge your beliefs, just curious about the intersection of logic, language, and communication.

Camille - Agnostics are chicken $#!+ Atheists, straddling the fence, not knowing if they should choose superstition or rationality. They are, however, far superior intellectually to those who blindly subscribe to the myth and superstition shoved into their skulls as children.

Robert,
I don't know why people are so mad at you--you made me laugh heartily with your last two posts--the religionists have no sense of humor whatsoever--I will exempt the Papussed, Larocca and sometimes Ravensfan from the humorless category--and of course Augustine--he is marvelous.
Ravensfan Anon

Ravensfan Anon - They are so entertaining. Makes coming here so much fun, but it is starting to feel like shooting monkeys in a barrel. Wish some intractable Mussies would enter the fray, to make it more interesting.

By definition, no one knows what lies outside their tiny circle of knowledge. To claim you know there is no God is to claim you have exhaustively searched every part of every universe and dimension with an infallibly accurate method of detecting every non-physical entity that could possibly exist. The claim that God has taken the initiative and chosen to reveal himself to some people is not nearly as unbelievable.

Don’t be like a blind person trying to convince himself that because he has never seen, everyone else claiming to see must be mistaken. In the realm beyond your present experience amazing things could dwell - even a God poised to shatter your insensibility to him.

Abstinonymous - Unlike you, I'm not trying to sell an entire rationale for existence on the slim odds that what your illiterate ancestors, thousands of years ago, came up with because they wanted answers they had not earned, to questions they did not understand, and who made up your ultimate truths and beliefs, are worthy of their effort. I'm comfortable not knowing all that is still hidden from Humanity and just unwilling to call it by the name of your made-up god without proof.

Those ancestors you wish to mock as illiterate managed to write considerable amounts much more than your unbelieving ones were able to do. You can define it however you wish it still comes out as the blind person trying to convince himself that because he has never seen, everyone else claiming to see must be mistaken.

Robert Little – You are allowed to be whatever you wish. If it is your desire to deny God because He hasn’t revealed himself directly to you that is your right and I have no desire to deny it to you. What is absurd about things like love, compassion, sacrifice and putting the needs of others before your own? Even atheist could learn a lot from the teachings of Bible like the Ten Commandments and those of Christ even if they rejected God. I am sorry to say there is far more value there than in anything I have read of yours.

Rohit – Are you saying until something is proven it does not exist or occur? Darwin's Letter to his friend, Sir Thomas Thompton, 1861: 'I believe in the theory of evolution, not because I have proof, but because it helps me in classification, Morphology, Embryology, and rudimentary organs..."

Anthony - You have nothing to do with what I believe, or don't believe. What is of great concern is the rubbish your kind are shoving into the minds of children, which is exactly how you were programmed to believe the monumental pile of crap associated with your delusional beliefs.

Atheists don't have a buy-bull like you religionists. We don't have a myth driven rationale for existence that has to be reinforced with fairy-tales, written by a power driven Catholic Church 325 years after the death of your supposed god/Human hybrid abomination.

Robert Littel – Perhaps you could elaborate for me what is rubbish about teaching kids things like not killing, stealing, lying or love, compassion, sacrifice treating others as you wish to be treated, and turning the other cheek. If you see that as delusional I feel truly sorry for you. It offers far more for children than your reality does.

The atheist I have encountered are like burns patients smashing mirrors; like people who fear they’ve got cancer refusing to see a doctor. They are living in denial. No matter how sophisticated they pretend to be, in spiritual matters they are driven by fear and guilt. In truth there is no such thing as an atheist rational or at least none I’ve ever encountered. Most atheists resort to ridicule and mocking rather than even attempting to offer a more compelling argument because deep down they realize they don’t have one.

Anthony - Spiritual matters do not exist if there is no realm of spirituality. There cannot be a spiritual realm without a spirit, or a god if you must, so my having any fear or guilt over such nonsense is ridiculous.

Do you think that Atheists don't teach their children about what is right and what is wrong? Do you think our ethics, intellectually derived and logically applied, are inferior to your guilt driven need to behave because if you don't, some vain vindictive god creature will banish you to an eternity of suffering, in some kind if anti-heaven?

We teach our children to stand proudly for the benefits of facing the world from the rational perspective, rather than from the narrow , limited, and in some cases, stupid rationales that have caused so many of your kind to kill others, and even kill among your own kind , over doctrinaire minutia. The main difference is that we do not "turn the other cheek" when doing so is used as a further excuse by religionists to continue to spread their institutionalized insanity. All the supposed good that you use as your justification for the perpetuation of your delusional mindset, is freely available (without doctrinaire excess baggage) to anyone who can subscribe to the social contract. We have the valid argument, you have the accumulated myths, superstitions, hatreds, bigotries and manipulations of a power hungry Church to feed what has proven to be a very screwed up world view.

Robert Little – If you were truly without fear or guilt you would not be attacking Christians or other faiths so vehemently. Your response speaks for itself. People sometimes say they don’t need God. They hope it’s a sign of strength. Sadly, all it indicates is a fear of getting hurt, and the result is a hollow life.

You are like a delicate fish in an aquarium blissfully unaware of its dependence because it thinks it is simply the nature of food to suddenly appear everyday and that water quality, temperature and aeration take care of themselves. For years you have acted like a parasite, sucking everything you can from the Creator and more or less treating him as if he doesn’t exist. God in his kindness has let you abuse his generosity, giving you time to come to your senses.

I can not speak for what any person atheist, Christian or any other faith teaches their children. Your ethics were derived from religion despite your assertion otherwise. Your rational perspective killed millions in countries like Russia, China and many other places. Your rational perspective treats right and wrong as relative. Actually, atheists easily hold the record for mass killings - Lenin, Stalin, Mao. War is horrific, and yet by sheer numbers the slaughter of millions by these atheists dwarfs anything done in religious war. When looking for the cause of war, try greed, selfishness, pride, hate, unforgiveness - the very opposite to Jesus’ teachings.

If you assume that killing and exploitation are wrong, you have unconsciously appropriated Christian values. If, as atheistic evolutionists teach, advancement comes through the survival of the fittest, why not let war take its natural course? Dig into many non-Christian religions and you will discover the teaching that all things are one - including good and evil. Why work for justice if nothing - exploitation included - is evil? It is Christianity that provides the rational basis for pursuing justice and peace. It makes so much sense that non-Christians often end up sidestepping the logical implications of their own beliefs. They tack Christian values on to their anti-Christian base, like trying to graft rose buds on to plastic roots.

Many people imagine they despise Christianity when they are merely rejecting aspects of ‘Churchianity’ that Jesus himself would reject. A major theme in Jesus’ teaching is that we can enjoy the wondrous transformation that God’s forgiveness brings, only to the degree that we are willing to forgive people who have hurt us.

Hypocrites are people who claim to be morally better than they really are. Authentic Christians claim to be so bad that they deserve to be sentenced to hell forever. Are you saying they are even worse than that? Not realizing that genuine Christians have such a low view of their own morality, you attack them. What drives you to despise Christians is not unkindness so much as a desperate attempt to drown the shrieks of your own conscience.

Anthony - I have not been suckling at the teat of your made-up god. To make such a statement is absurd unless you can demonstrate that such a creature exists, and that I have been committing that act. The religious institutions that exist, are based on the quaint notion that some invisible god creature is at the center of all that there is and that somehow we are special because of our desire to get close to this invisible, never seen (EVER), and considering the suffering in the world, a cruelly dispassionate god.

According to the American Atheist Association, most of those who classify themselves as Atheists, also call themselves Republicans. This is strange, because one would think that anyone who could be rational enough to be an Atheist, couldn't possibly support the blood sucking Right-wing. Your dragging out Lenin, Stalin and Mao as your rationale for the murder of millions is disingenuous, because one, as shown above, does not have to be a Communist to be an Atheist. There is no monolithic Atheist organization or dogma, and in as much as all those people were killed over political dogma, there is a definite disconnect between non-belief in silly gods and collectivism.

As to the origins of the notion of good and evil, we have to remember that religion has been around for a long time and as control of the masses is their main game, rules that facilitate that control were codified into codes of conduct. It is their absolutist nature that makes them so obnoxious and in many cases stupid. My friend, Shabir, was having cup after cup of soup at the restaurant we were working at (forty years ago) and he finally said, "What is it that makes this soup taste so good?". In as much as it was split pea soup, we said it had to be the ham. He spent the next hour vomiting in the men's room because of the food superstitions of his infantile beliefs. We all suffer at times when facing our notions of good and evil, but the silly notions of those two conditions become most acute when religionists insist on using the coercive power of the state to enforce the sillier moral precepts that religion brings to the table, like abortion.

The Atheist has to live by the social contract that offers no reward (bribe), or no punishment (god's heavy hand of retribution) if they fail. Our rationale for behavior, therefore, is based on intellect, not Pavlovian games of chance, where the payoff isn't made until after you are dead. We also don't have to hand over 10% of our income to pay for that postmortem payoff. (Damn, I should sell real-estate in the afterlife, with the same guarantee). I wonder why religion is not held to the same standards other businesses are that try to get away with such obvious fraud, and I wonder how anyone can be stupid, or ignorant enough to buy it.

And Anthony, it is the very Christians you extol and exalt who have supported wars they have called good wars! WW 2 was one such good war, despite the numerous dead --and the Christians fought it, one versus the other--there were fascist Christians and Nazi Christians. Communism was a political connivance and a political convenience of the progeny of so called Christians--a power grab with the support of masses of renegade Christians. You can tweet all you want about the purity of Christianity and in your ignorance you can speak of religions other than your own with disdain--you can also say that all concepts of truth, honesty, empathy justice and so on would not exist without Christianity--that's a laugh considering that canon law sprang from Roman law--and Catholicism reared its head over the ashes of Rome but poured a lot of those pagan ashes over its own ritualistic head and imitated the pagans in more ways than one can imagine--anyway for you to glorify Christianity as the well spring of all virtues has no bearing in truth--truth existed well before Christianity and so did mercy and love--so have cruelty and barbarism, anger and fraud continued after the birth of Christianity, Christians often the perpetrators of such outrages-- Christians fought some of the most bloody wars in history--the Thirty year war--Catholics versus Protestants, the Crusades, WW 1 and WW 2, and all the numerous petty wars of Europe over succession and succor--endless wars in the name of the lord! Now you will insist that the people who fought thus and violated Christ's teachings were not true Christians--I say "Phooey!" to that dear Anthony--because that is an escape valve religionists-particularly the Christians reserve--if a guy is good he is part of the flock--if he is bad then he is not following the lord and he is an outsider and cannot be counted as a vile Christian--as such there are no vile Christians--only good ones--those who have accepted the lord and behave themselves are real Christians and those who don't are not really Christians and cannot be statistically included as such. That way when I say Christian communist or Christian fascist--you can always say--Christian communists and fascists don't exist--each of those terms is an oxymoron. Why? A true Christian would never be a communist or a fascist! Case closed! Your gobbledygook deserves a bin titled, "Come and get it----fraud!"
Ravensfan Anon

Robert Little – You can deny the truth all you wish that does not change it. A tree falling in the woods makes a sound even if you don’t hear it. Nno one knows what lies outside their tiny circle of knowledge. To claim you know there is no God is to claim you have exhaustively searched every part of every universe and dimension with an infallibly accurate method of detecting every non-physical entity that could possibly exist.
You are like a blind person trying to convince himself that because he has never seen, everyone else claiming to see must be mistaken. Human suffering is the result of human actions or inactions.

Using suffering to deny God is just an atheist myth. No one is touched as deeply by humanity’s anguish as its Creator. No one is as aware of suffering humanity as God. Even when the cause seems beyond human influence, all heartache can be traced not to God’s will, but to rebellion against God’s will. Many things are murky or unknown to us - the view from eternity, the non-physical realm, the intricate chain reaction set off from person to person and generation to generation whenever anything happens. We vainly pit our puny intellect against the Infinite Mind, using brain cells he gave us to try to out-think him. If God’s ways don’t always make sense to us it merely confirms that our combined brainpower couldn’t light a single galaxy.

I am not concerned with political affiliations of atheists or anyone else. Although you yourself did make a statement which is made up That all Republicans are blood sucking. I’ll agree that one does not have to be a communist to be an atheist and that the majority of the killing in the world is not over theological differences The point was to show you how flawed making random accusations that theism or atheism in responsible for such atrocities. The real culprits are greed, selfishness, pride, hate, unforgiveness - the very opposite to Jesus’ teachings.

What made your friend vomit in the men's room had nothing to do with God rather silly additional conditions we flawed humans added to what is a fairly simply set of laws. Christ summarized them into two from which everything else flows and not eating ham was not one of them. I do not believe in anyone should be forced by any means to God or Christianity or its concepts except for the obvious ones like killing, stealing ones I think even atheist could agree are wrong.

Your atheist social contract is one nothing more than trying to follow Christian morals while leaving out God. For the most part it leaves the follower empty and unfulfilled which comes out in your posts crystal clear. Its what drives you to continually try and assert your intellectual superiority which is nothing compared to God’s and your need to try and bring Christians down to the level of unfulfillment and emptiness that burns inside of you.

Anonymous – Atheists were on both sides of the WWII as well. I conceded to Robert Littlelthat the wars causes were not theological therefore it was not right to make the atheist comment. Now if I accept your WWII comment that would make my original comment valid would it not. The number of deaths from that far exceeds the wars you mentioned. All of which were fought in the name of greed, selfishness, pride, hate, unforgiveness just as the death caused by Lenin, Stalin & Mao. The canon law of the catholic church came along well after the concepts I mentioned. The catholic church’s canon law is an administrative tool used by flawed human beings to try and run the structure of the catholic church.

You are correct about my response to your incorrect statement regarding Christianity and wars. The same could be said for politicians & politics, but politics cannot be eliminated from society; we can only try to find the right political formula. Neither can we eliminate our religious need; we can only find the right religion. A good start would be to find one committed to a leader who said, ‘Blessed are the peacemakers . . . love your enemies . . . bless those who curse you . . . turn the other cheek. The causes of war as I have stated already are the greed, selfishness, pride, hate, unforgiveness - the very opposite to Jesus’ teachings. You can not refute that which is why you resort to child like name calling and ridicule in a vain effort to feel better your choice to refuse God.

Anthony - As you have fully invested your existence in a highly unlikely improbability, have decided that any deviation form the dogma of this man made improbability is indefensible, and that anyone who stands against your subscription to a notion that has NEVER, as in ever, been shown to have any validity, is somehow anathema, I am constrained to admit that you are just as intractable as the inimitable Mr. Clay, who has stated his absolute support for what he believes on the dubious the strength of the absurdity that he believes it. You are worse than a con man, because you believe in the con you are trying to sell.

Robert Littel – The fact that you seem more intent on insulting and ridiculing rather than offering any sort counter points says a lot about you. I have actually said nothing about you except that you live a hollow unfulfilled life. That much is obvious from your posts. The difference between us is I don’t see this as a battle to be won as you do. I see this as an effort to help others. Of course that can’t be done if the person does not want to be helped.

It is impossible for us to know conclusively whether God exists and what He is like unless He takes the initiative and reveals Himself. We must scan the horizon of history to see if there is any clue to God's revelation. There is one clear clue. In an obscure village in Palestine, 2,000 years ago, a Child was born in a stable. Today the entire world is still celebrating the birth of Jesus.

MURDERED IN THE NAME OF Religion

I thought the article is about Ahamdis being unfairly targeted in Pakistan
The fact is that all religions teach good and have been given to man by God.

Tell me one religion that teaches murder.

No. None Zero

It is mans exploitation and cunning that uses religion to invade and occupy neighbors lands and property.

All you atheists. Are you suggesting that the Kaabah in Mecca built by Abraham, The Wailing Wall in Jerusalem and the Aqasa Mosque are all fake.

What about the all the Hindu Gods and Buddha. Were they all fake.
How could they make up the history of the world in books.
Why do people have faith/hope?

How does an atheist have hope?
Look you got me going.

Mujahid - The Kaabah, the founding rock of your silly religion, enclosed by the large black edifice in Mecca, was expropriated from another minor religion, practiced by an obscure tribe Muhammad absorbed at the point of a sword. It is a nickle/iron meteorite that was first noticed because of the fact it was metallic and differed in color from all the other rocks in the area. It has as much meaning as the Irish Blarney Stone, and is only significant by the numbers of clueless idiots who worship it. Your religion is no more valid than any of the other supposed "ultimate truths" that have been foisted off on Humankind. You would be far better off without it, and so would the rest of us.

Anthony - So your final coup de grace, your big proof to justify your infantile beliefs, is the made-up god/Human hybrid abomination you call Jesus. I have no doubt that a Jesus character did exist in some form, as there were any number of supposed saviors popping up all the time back then, with very few even catching on for even a short period of time, among more than just a few people. That one of them was marketable outside of the small group of devout cult followers, after his death, is only a function of persistence of chance and the zealotry of fanatics no different than those now trying to sell a similar scenario about Sun Myung Moon, until an organization could be constructed that could force this belief of others. Your Catholic Church has been the agent of coercive forced belief, virtually unchallenged until equally deluded dissidents (Protestants) ended your Church's monopoly on the spread of religious pap. That you actually subscribe to the notion (curiously borrowed from multi god pagan traditions) that a god and Human would breed a hybrid creature (son of god), is only a throw-back to paganism. Everything you believe, and seriously want to spread to the rest of us, is a doctrinaire mound of drek, that is made out of smoke.

Robert Littel – For someone who claims to be so sure of his position you sure seem to like to ridicule in order to deflect the attention away from your own justification for denying God. Actually your explanation for how Christianity took root and spread is far more unrealistic than accepting the truth that it happened because it was the work of God. The catholic church is not the sole bastion of Christianity and well before the protestant reformation there was already a great schism among Christians that resulted in the catholic and orthodox churches. Your lack of understanding of the Trinity concept leads you to draw erroneous conclusions about its formation. In the end there is nothing in your words except some trying desperately to deny truth by using ridicule and comparing apples and oranges.

Robert Littel – For someone who claims to be so sure of his position you sure seem to like to ridicule in order to deflect the attention away from your own justification for denying God. Actually your explanation for how Christianity took root and spread is far more unrealistic than accepting the truth that it happened because it was the work of God. The catholic church is not the sole bastion of Christianity and well before the protestant reformation there was already a great schism among Christians that resulted in the catholic and orthodox churches. Your lack of understanding of the Trinity concept leads you to draw erroneous conclusions about its formation. In the end there is nothing in your words except some trying desperately to deny truth by using ridicule and comparing apples and oranges.

Abstinonymous - I don't need justification for not believing in something that has never been shown to exist. It is those of you who have to justify how you can believe so much based on so little (all of it superstition and myth), considering that your side of absurdities is working so hard to force it on the totality of Humanity. You will have to forgive us if we resist, as you are trying to force something on us that is nothing but institutionalized crap.

Robert Littel - The post you are responding to came from me. Your refusal to accept has been written and preached is your right given to by God. What I believe is based on far more than your empty meaningless self created beliefs. No one has forced anything on you or anyone else. No one is forcing you or anyone else to read what I say or respond to it. Your use of combative terms like forcing and resisting reveal how little you understand of the true message of Christ. No insults or ridiculing you can do have any affect on me and your denial of God's existence has no affect on me only you so from my view there is nothing I have to forgive. I’m watching someone drowning and offering to toss you a life preserver. If you’d rather drown there is nothing I can do about it except pity you.

Anthony - It is the mission of every Christian to spread the myths of your infantile god concepts, and I see every effort being made to accomplish that ignoble goal in everything you post. What threatens the spread of delusionalism is the very presence of those of us who point out the vacuous and empty nature of the various "ultimate truths", that have about as much truth attached to them as "Alice in Wonderland". You have two choices, one is to silence us with rhetoric, and failing that, paint us as being anathema. You lose on both accounts.

I am not Ahmadi but I still must confess that I often find other muslims to hate and denigrate Ahmadis in the worst possible way both referring in vulgar terms to their leader but also causing pain by calling them non-muslim. Something dating back to Zia's government in th 1970s where also the Hudood ordinance came to be. I have met and spoke to Ahmadis and sure I disagree with some of their views, but this said, disagreement should not unleash such hate and animosity. I agree with Allison's observations and in my part of the world such terrorist attacks against these muslims, is not even covered. But I know many sunnis who spend their time preaching against Ahmadis. This makes me wonder - is that what muslims have come to be about? On one hand we ask the west to show tolerance and let us practise our faith as we like, but on the other hand we can not afford tolerance when it comes to the very minorities who live among us. This saddens me. Even in the Quran, God asks us not to debate religious differences but rather focus on the common good. Imagine, now, how much good we could do just in our immediate society or neighbourhood, if we instead shifted our focus from intolerence and absurd occupation with those different to the suffering and welfare issues in your society.

Bobby wrong Anonymous. One more thing unless you suffer from some sort of multiple person disorder stop talking as though you represent anything more than one person.