Maybe they could add the add Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck and make it a real right wing nut job convention.

This makes me so proud to be a Tennessee native.

We dont have to be paranoid that every Muslim is out to destroy us and Israel. However we should never be banned from being able to say that many Muslims are out to destroy us and Israel. The less of these people there are in The U.S. the better. Thats not being hate fulled. Thats just common sense. If someone doesnt support America, the have no business being here and we shouldnt be letting them in. As far as $549 to hear Sarah Palin, thats not too bad of a price for someone to pay me for hearing a female candidate, as long as they are willing to pay for gas and hotel also.

One would have to pay ME and much more than $549 to see Palin.

Clay -- Do you mean someone would have to pay you to listen to any female candidate? Or do you just mean one in particular?

Any female candidate. Why? God wants men to run the churches and the country. Actually I dont really mean it. I wouldnt hear any female candidate live for any amount of money, unless I could convince myself that the benefits to the poor or whomever I could give the money to would override the problems.

wow Clay, wow.

marf,

You must new in these parts, if Clay's pronouncements surprise you.

Marf, I believe that you have accidently attributed my comment (LouisVA) to Clay. It is my comment that reads "One would have to pay ME and much more than $549 to see Palin." The point I was attempting to make (with tongue planted firmly in cheek) is that I am not a Sarah Palin fan. IMHO, Ms. Palin may have the best of intentions; however, I don't believe she has the intellect needed to run our country. Her statements often sound shallow and not very well thought out. We have already suffered thru 8 years of Bush - we DO NOT NEED another nitwit running our country!

Yes, wow. We really need to be obedient to God. I have seen churches that let women preach go downwards in attendance and donations. Of course women are the backbone so to speak of the church. It would fall apart without them. But God rewards us when we listen to Him and it is a shame that many dont follow it because they dont realize it. Thanks.

So, Clay, you think that our loving Father demands that the leadership skills, talents, grace and ideas (in a temporal arena) of half of His children should be dismissed summarily? That listening to women is somehow "trouble" that can only be ameliorated by giving alms.
Is it possible that your interpretation of His message is based on your own personal feelings? Just a little bit?

Marf, although I am not personally a religious person, I am in total agreement with your assessment regarding females in church leadership. Sexism abounds! Clay, I don't mean any malice but MAN, this is no longer the Beaver Cleaver 1950s. You really need to make an effort to join the 21st century. "The times they are a-changin" (thank you Mr Dylan) and you need to change with them or get left behind. I hope you take this in the spirit in which it is meant - advice via constructive criticism.

No one is saying that women's leadership skills should be dismissed. The Lord is saying that they shouldnt be the church leaders but that the men should be. There are plenty of ministries that they can lead. They should not be the main leaders of the church. No one said that listening to women is trouble. I am saying that I am not listening to one who is running for office if God doesnt want her to. The biggest trouble is caused by those who are disobedient to God. Thanks.

Clay - evidently I have to say it because you are too incredibly stupid to see it yourself. Your are a horse's not so sweet end of 70 feet of digestive tract.

I likely disagree with Clay as much as or more than most people here. But name calling is ignorant, as are those who indulge in it.

Clay there is no word "Fulled" but that said, "You Clay are fulled with clay at the very top of your head beneath your skull!"
Ravensfan Anon

Thanks, Dana, for that. I've been feeling bad about the tenor of the conversation. It wasn't my intent to turn this nasty, but looking back at my words, I did sound snarky. Which opened a door to other ugliness. For which I apologize to Clay.
I'm trying to understand where Clay is coming from. Church leadership is a separate issue (and one with which I still disagree with Clay), but my main issue was wondering why he thinks women shouldn't run for public office. Why he thinks the Father doesn't want them to run and contribute as leaders in public affairs. How is that disobedient?

Clay, my friend, once again (with absolutely no malice intended), I still have to respectfully disagree with your assessment. I try so very hard to engage people in civil discourse rather than name-calling, blaming, finger pointing, etc as I deplore this “us against them” mindset that seems so prevalent in our society today. This sad situation is now even present in our US Congress and that is something that I find extremely disturbing as this is a body that is supposed to lead the world in an intelligent, democratic, exchange of ideas, followed by a give and take discussion (compromise), and finally an up or down vote based on the merits of the various ideas presented. The unfortunate reality is they are just as guilty as the general public – Republicans vs. Democrats, liberals vs. conservatives, etc. With that said, the following is, of course, an assumption on my part (and granted, making assumptions can sometimes get one in trouble) but I get the sense that you are a Biblical literalist (please correct me if I am wrong). I, myself, was born into a typical white, Anglo-Saxon Protestant family, raised as such, and was also born in the south (Memphis, TN) where Biblical literalism was not only prevalent, but the norm. I am now 60 years old; however, and I began questioning my faith back in my mid-teens during the tumultuous 1960s. I also questioned the accuracy of the Bible (KJV version of which I am most familiar), when I started to discover so many contradictions in the Bible. As a result, I began to consider myself an agnostic; then, as I matured and was able to think more critically, I became a full-blown atheist. If you wish to explore these contradictions see a fairly comprehensive list @:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

In addition to the above, most objective Biblical scholars agree that the New Testament was written well after the birth and death of Jesus – approximately between 60AD through 150AD by MEN who have the same imperfections, flaws, and biases as we have today. Men and women are by nature imperfect – it just comes with the territory. In addition to the contradictions that still exist in the Bible today there is another issue I feel compelled to touch on; and that is the Council of Nicea and various other councils called by the Catholic Church during the early days of Christianity, which as you well know, dominated western society (Europe) during this time period. These councils met to “improve on the Bible.” In essence, they decided that “this stays because we believe this to be accurate – this goes in the trash because it is not ‘correct,’” etc. In summary, I believe that the accuracy of the New Testament is deeply flawed and the Old Testament is – well, what can I say that would be delicate – hmm, let’s face it - I cannot be delicate. It is my firm belief that it is nothing more than mythology much like Greek gods/goddesses, Roman gods/goddesses, Norse gods/goddesses, fairies, ghosts, leprechauns, the Easter bunny, etc. Please understand that I do not in any way mean to offend; I am merely stating a deeply held personal opinion. I look at the Bible much in the same way that I view the old kindergarten game where the first child in the row whispers something to the second and this, in turn, is done to the end of the classroom. The last child then reveals what he/she heard and it is ALWAYS far, far removed from the original statement.

Given what I have said above (I apologize for the length), I find it impossible to put much stock in the Bible. In my opinion, it is the world’s best selling work of fiction. To finalize, and get back on track , how can believers possibly know “God’s” true intentions regarding women? We must keep in mind that Christian culture has, in the past, been a VERY patriarchal set up where men lead, women follow, and the opinion of women is simply not valued or considered. If there is a supreme being, and that is a very big if, how could he/she/it possibly discount half of the population that he/she/it supposedly created? Is “God” a sexist? It sure seems so as “God” is depicted in the Bible.

Louis VA--you are a wonderful poster--kind words, nasty words--all the same to Clay. The man is waterproof. Not to worry about him--his god protects his prejudices and will raise him up on judgment day into the enfolding arms of heaven. He needs no one's defense. So he has said in the past. He is tenacious. The polite ones on these blogs are just as virulent as the impolite ones and they too are tenacious. It's all OK --Clay will not only survive, he'll say the same things over and over without compunction or embarrassment--and that's OK too.
Ravensfan Anon

If I say the same things over and over it is obviously because I feel that the statements are what God would want me to say. The bible was written by men inspired by God and it says that all scripture is good for doctrine and reproof, etc. You either believe this or you dont. To analyze the bible for contradictions etc. is to say that we dont believe. There are also many statements in the scriptures that were made by God and His Son directly.

Hi Raven,
Thank you so much for your kind words of support as they encourage me to believe that there is hope for mankind despite these troubled times. I do not know if you recall, but a few months ago Clay, you, and myself had a similar conversation. Even though there are times when I cannot help but be cynical, I try so hard to be a voice of reason. Deep inside me lies an eternal optimist and I will never give up trying to mediate between folks that cannot seem to get along. Every human being deserves kindness, respect, and dignity regardless of their views. Thanks again.
Louis in southern rural VA.

Clay,
If nothing else, I do in fact admire your tenacity (smile). With that said, you cannot possibly KNOW that the Bible was inspired by God as you were not there. That has to be taken on faith. In addition, you cannot possibly KNOW that God or Jesus are directly quoted in the Bible - that also requires faith, not knowledge. To me, faith is just a synonym for no proof. My scientific mind needs proof before I believe anything. Just one more thought related to the above; how in the world can you possibly believe that God or Jesus were "quoted" when the Bible was written many years after the death of Jesus? I'm sorry man, but you make no logical sense - it is all conjecture.

First of all, the Jews were keeping records of what God said to them. Second, so were Christ's disciples. I believe these records to be accurate representations of these quotes. Why would God want the bible to be put together with misrepresentations? Third, there were thousands of people who heard Christ speak and who saw what He did. There were thousands who saw what God did in the Old Testament. There werent just a few people who witnessed these events. Lastly, there are millions who witness what God does today, including people praying over a child's brain tumor that disappears, leaving doctors with no explanation. For some though, it doesnt matter. Some saw the miracles that Christ performed and still agreed to crucify Him. All of this makes perfect logical sense to me (although of course I disagree with what they did to Christ), however what is in the heart is always more important than logic. If not for the evil in men's hearts, He wouldnt have been crucified.

Clay and Raven,
I would like to add a couple more thoughts. Here in south-central rural VA there are a lot of “Clays.” I am smack dab in the middle of the “Bible-Belt.”
My domicile is approx. halfway between Falwell World and Pat Robertson Land, kind of a bad place to live for a secular person . In fact, if my world-view was known by my friends and neighbors I would at the least be ostracized – at the most run out of town on a rail. You folks may not see the connection to the above content but, in general, I can see a comparison with so-called “Supplementary, complementary, and alternative medicine” which I abbreviate as (SCAM). Most of this is absolute bunk that I laughingly refer to as woo-woo. With that said, when one of these “alternatives” is scientifically proven by valid double-blind, placebo controlled, REAL unbiased scientific study, then and only then can it enter mainstream medicine. I cannot bring myself to take things on faith. I need proof. If “God” somehow becomes scientifically proven I will gladly and willfully change my views. If that in any way offends anyone, I’m sorry, but as Walter Cronkite (sp?) used to say – “that’s the way it is.”

Clay, again, please explain why you think our Father doesn't want women to seek public office.

Louis as a Christian myself I have to say it's unfortunate that some Christians seem to confuse the concept of spreading the faith with forcing it on those who choose not to accept it. While I don't agree with your world view myself I respect your right to it and to live your life as you choose without having to concern yourself with being ostracized or run out on a rail.

Louis, a home halfway between Falwell World and Pat Robertson Land, would be a bad place for anyone to live. If I were you I would call a Catholic priest to bless the perimeter of your house. If you don't believe in that sort of thing you might try garlic. I have heard that boric acid will will keep cockroaches at bay. Its effect on fundamentalists has not yet been adequately studied, however.

Welcome to the fray.

Clay said:
“First of all, the Jews were keeping records of what God said to them.”

Clay, that is an outrageous statement as folks who “hear God speaking” have to be either delusional or schizophrenic (Pat Robertson, a charlatan extraordinaire, is a good example of this phenomenon with his daily “conversations” with God). I would not trust him as far as I could throw him. He is a fraud that dupes decent people into making him a wealthy man. As the musician, composer, and philosopher Frank Zappa once said in song “there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over.” If I heard God speaking to me I would not seek out a Rabbi, preacher, or priest – I would head out to the nearest loony bin and have myself committed. Does God speak to you? Man, I sure hope not or you are in need of some serious psychiatric help.

You go on to say:
“I believe these records to be accurate representations of these quotes”.

Clay, you may believe this to be true but once again you cannot possibly KNOW that. Therefore you are taking this on faith. If you do, in fact, KNOW this to be true, then you are engaged in what the jazz-rock band, Steely Dan, called “pretzel logic.”

Next you say:
“Third, there were thousands of people who heard Christ speak and who saw what He did. There were thousands who saw what God did in the Old Testament. There werent just a few people who witnessed these events.”

That is indeed true; however, the words that Christ spoke and his deeds were passed down orally for many, many years before the words were written in the Bible. Once again we are back to the kindergarten game I mentioned above.

You go on to say:
“Lastly, there are millions who witness what God does today, including people praying over a child's brain tumor that disappears, leaving doctors with no explanation.”

Yes, a tumor has disappeared with no KNOWN explanation. The key word here is KNOWN. Science does not have all the answers; however, what seems to be a “miracle” is more than likely explainable – we simply do not know how as of yet. In addition, several years ago a “scientific study” of intercessory prayer was published in a highly respected medical journal (I can’t remember which but that is beside the point); however, after the fact it was found to be riddled with errors, mistaken facts, and bogus data that was simply made up to fit the conclusion. This is faulty, backward “science.” A real scientific study does not state a conclusion and then insert data that “proves” it. That is not science Clay – it is just plain old falsification – something that Christians are not supposed to do – they lied – if I am not mistaken, your God kinda frowns on that as it is well stated in the Ten Commandments that lying is a sin. Since then, this study has been universally discredited. Finally, there have been many, many documented cases of spontaneous remission of horrible diseases. Do you think this has only happened to Christians who have been prayed over? I think not, Clay. These cases have happened worldwide to people of many faiths and I’m sure it has also occurred to those with no faith at all.

Finally you say:
“Some saw the miracles that Christ performed and still agreed to crucify Him. All of this makes perfect logical sense to me (although of course I disagree with what they did to Christ), however what is in the heart is always more important than logic. If not for the evil in men's hearts, He wouldnt have been crucified.”

Clay, Clay, Clay – if this is logic to you then you lack the concept of what logic is. Once again, these stories of so-called “miracles” were passed down through oral means long before the Bible was written. Here we are back at the kindergarten game. As to your second sentence above, the heart cannot think – it is simply the organ that pumps blood through the body. It is the brain that does the thinking and it is the source of the evil you speak of. What “is in the heart” is a metaphor – the heart is an organic, mechanical device that pumps blood – nothing more, nothing less.

Please don’t misunderstand me. I admire and respect your faith and beliefs as I have respect for ALL beliefs. However, religious beliefs are unprovable and will remain so as long as this world exists.

Hi Raven,
I also have the utmost respect for you as well. I am in total agreement with you as regards having someone force their views down my throat.

Hi Dana,
Thank you for your sage advice, lol. I will certainly take this advice and consider which method I need to persue .

Aw man, I hate it when that happens. Change persue to pursue.

Good morning to you and yours, Ravensfan,

You said above:
“Louis as a Christian myself I have to say it's unfortunate that some Christians seem to confuse the concept of spreading the faith with forcing it on those who choose not to accept it. While I don't agree with your world view myself I respect your right to it and to live your life as you choose without having to concern yourself with being ostracized or run out on a rail.”
-------------------------
Raven, I am obviously aware that I thanked you for your support above; however, at the time I was multi-tasking with some additional issues – something that I am not very good at doing (smile) – and I don’t feel that I went deeply enough with my thanks to satisfy myself as regards my growing respect for you. I do not want in any way to generalize about Christians but I am constantly bombarded with insults and hostility from SOME Christians concerning my world-view once it has been revealed. You, however, seem to have an open mind and a realization that there are many, many views and I have NEVER felt any hostility from you on this issue. In short, you display what I feel to be a true Christian attitude of forgiveness, humility, dignity, and respect for everyone without prejudice toward those that differ from you. In my opinion, you do what Jesus would do, thus I feel that you try very hard to live your faith and “hate the sin but love the sinner.” I sincerely thank you from the bottom of my heart for treating me with respect and dignity despite our differences. Although I am a nonbeliever, I do try very hard to live a moral life and I do believe there are many valuable moral lessons in the Holy Bible that is just plain good advice to all no matter what faith you are (and to those with no faith as well). I attempt to follow the wise advice given myself – the ones that immediately come to mind are the “Golden Rule” and the “Ten Commandments.” I am sure there are many more examples that escape me at this time as I am in no way a Biblical scholar. To those that attempt to ram their views down my throat and make such a big deal about their piousness, I think that they are guilty of cherry-picking what they want to believe and ignore other things that they are uncomfortable with. To those that display that type of behavior I would like to remind them of Jesus’ own admonition in Matthew 6, 5-6:

6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Finally (and I realize this is off topic) but I am also a Raven’s fan secondary only to the Redskins, lol. Virginians are nuts about the Skins, sometimes to the point of obsessive/compulsive behavior (insert big grin here). Since we do not have a team I consider the Redskins to be my home team – then secondarily the Ravens and Carolina Panthers.

Once again, thank you, thank you, thank you.

Sincerely,
Louis in south-central Virginia

Louis , Thanks for the kind words I really appreciate it. For someone who does not believe you know the Bible quite well. I’m no Biblical scholar myself. I like to think a have a decent understanding of it. Sadly what many Christians, including myself sometimes, forget is we are all sinners. It’s always easier to point out the perceived flaws in others rather than look examine our own. I believe that was the basis for Jesus emphasizing not looking at the spec in someone else’s eye, but taking out the log in our own. I do agree there are many things in the Bible like “Golden Rule” and the “Ten Commandments.” that could be used even by non-Christians. I was fortunate enough to be able to study a little bit of other faiths and the same can be said for many of them as well.

I was a Colts fan before the move to Indy. I never gravitated to the Skins as many did when the Colts left so I went through a period with no home team myself.

Thank you for the comments. I’m sure we’ll have exchanges in the future. Take care my friend.

Ravensfan my new friend,
You give me WAY too much credit re my Biblical knowledge. I feel compelled to set the record straight as what you read above is just about the extent of my knowledge (smile).

Louis my friend I've found that more often than not there tends to be an inverse relationship with regards to what one claims to know and what they actually know. Often the more one claims to have the less one actually demonstrates. Conversely those a bit more modest usually know more than they realize.