If you arent praying to the right Guy, the amount of prayer wont make any difference.

Clay,

Your posting is most offensive.

This blog is a forum for people from various religious perspectives and backgrounds. It is not your personal playroom. If someone posts a message from a heritage different from yours, consider quietly reading and perhaps learning. Your "witnessing" is hardly going to change this author's mind and will only make you (and by extension, other Christians) look foolish and rude. Give it a rest, Clay -- you are not doing your mission any favors!

DEAR MS. J SAMIA MAIR
We have freedom of religion in America but, public displays of religious practices are intrusive and invasion of privacy. Why not say your prayers in a group when you get home; you yourself told us this can be done in one hour. Besides it will help you get more work done at your workplace.

I am sure God will understand since by his will you live in a country where there are more churches and fewer mosques and Synagogues.

Since Jesus is a prophet of the Muslims and churches can be found on every corner why don't you pray in a church . A church is a perfect place for a Muslim to pray . You could do it siting on a pew, or by its side.

I am sure the priest will have no problem. You will be surprised at the welcome reception you will receive. Many hospitals have chapels where people from different faith pray througout the day. The priests in these chapels who counsel dying patients are always accommodating welcoming to Muslims saying their prayers.

I think I have solved your problem.

Thank you and good luck with your prayers and please pray for America's economy and for the Oil spill to stop damaging our country.

Christ said that if we deny Him before men, He will deny us. Why would I not say the truth here? It may not do the author any good if he decides not to accept the advice, but it surely wont do him any good if the advice is not offered. Thanks.

Clay:
I have offered a solution to Ms. Samia. Why don't you comment on that.

There is only one God and who gave us the message through Abraham and his descendants.

We are all praying to the same God.
Your Rhetoric about right and wrong God and "Jesus only Salvation" is getting to be boring.

We can all get our salvation from God from within our religion of birth. This is true for Hindus
I wish you would stop this.

Christ said, "no one comes to the Father except through Me." The truth should never be boring. Thanks.

Dear Ms. Samia:
We have many religions that work together in a work place. We each have different times, and rituals for worship.

In this very competitive world even ten minutes in place of business can very crucial.

I think at a workplace we should focus on work and leave religion at home.

Only Muslims have these demands. I have never heard of Hindus or Jews or even Christians asking for time of during the day to say their prayers.
I am sure we all would like to pray. But Muslims have made a meal out of this prayer business.

Miss Samia, You should pray at home.

Clay's postings have taken on a graffiti-like quality. Mindless scribblings that serve no purpose other than to advance the "artist's" ego at the expense of the platform he mars. Tiresome.

Concerned Citizen,
You are right--religion is a private affair--it is not for public display--5 times of prayer interruptions--the Muslims should make up for this at the work place and not skip work due to prayer time and then expect their colleagues to pick up the slack--that wouldn't be fair even by the Prophet's standards. This religion sorely needs reform.
Ravensfan Anon

Hi All,

First, thank you for your comments. Let me address them.

Clay, we pray to the same and only God, who created us all.

Concerned Citizen, I have prayed in a hospital chapel and on church grounds. You are right, people have been most accommodating. The problem is that sometimes one needs to pray and not conveniently near these locations. So, while your suggestions are helpful, they do not solve the problem, especially when someone is at work.

If a Muslim is working in a profession where taking a 5 minute break would be unfair to other workers because they are working longer hours, that Muslim certainly could and should work out something with his or her employer to make up the time missed, such as during the lunch break or arriving 5 minutes earlier or leaving 5 minutes later.

Dear Concerned Citizen,

Your comment "Only Muslims have these demands. I have never heard of Hindus or Jews or even Christians asking for time of during the day to say their prayers. I am sure we all would like to pray. But Muslims have made a meal out of this prayer business" completely misses the point.

Praying 5 times a day at specific times is not optional for Muslims. We believe it is a requirement from God.

Dear Anonymous and Concerned Citizen,

While I agree that what religion one chooses to practice (or not) is a private affair, I disagree that religion must be out of the public view. There is a public display of religion all of the time--church steeples; Christmas music in malls and other places where the public visits; people wearing crosses and various religious head coverings, etc. etc.

I do not really see the difference as far as offensiveness is concerned between a display that might identify a person with a particular religion and other personal identifying public displays -- e.g., wearing Goth clothing, break dancing or playing an instrument on the sidewalk, soliciting money for a favorite cause, or doing Tai Chi in a park.

I love the idea of seeing Muslim at prayer, demonstrating that faith (whatever faith we have) is important to us and an important part of our diverse society. There are many people who harbor odd notions that "all Muslims...this, all Muslims...that" The more that the Muslim faith is a visible part of everyday life, the more that non-Muslims will gain understanding of one of the world's major religions, and one that is intrinsicly related to the Christian and Jewish faiths that a majority of Americans share. Pray in peace, my friend!

Yeah. The more prayer the better. I don't think it matters much what faith or what language.

It does matter what faith. Otherwise we deny Christ. Thanks.

Clay - Christ called. He said you're doing a swell job and to please come home right now.

To the author -
Your own examples of appropriate pubic displays trumps your argument. While I someone can be recognized for their religious choice (a cross, a yamulka, etc) I have a hard time with permitting the "any time, any place" prayer as you suggest. Panhandling and soliciting is not allowed anywhere one pleases; walk into a theater and try to pull that, and you'll find yourself asked to leave. Likewise, going to a park to practice Tai Chi is fine, whereas a theater lobby is absolutely inappropriate. As an invitee to a private business, your presumptiveness as to your right to prayer is not offensive so much as unreasonable and immature. Ironically - you and Clay would seem to quite a bit n common in that regard.

I absolutely believe you have a right to pray as many times a day as you like, in any way you like. But not anywhere. A movie theatre is not a publc place, nor is a work place. YOU DID NOT ASK! Your finding of "a quiet place" might have seemed ok to you but why not ask permission of a manager BEFORE doing so? Be reasonable - a patron is observed walking down a darkened hallway (where presumably no one else was walking), and (presumably) kneels or crouches....what would you have the staff do? You did not ASK to be accomodated and you weren't. I'll offer that as unfair as it seems, asking after the fact is too late. You don't get to do whatever you want to do when you enter private space, regardless of what you are doing.

Your righteous indignation would prevent a business owner from running their business as they choose. You were not barred as a Muslim from praying in a movie theater. Everyone is barred from praying in a movie theater. Singing in a library is discouraged for the same reasons - because it is not the place for it. Once I belt out my acapella rendition of Oklahoma in the chldren's book section, I'm fairly sure I won't be accomodated by library staff, no matter how nicely I ask.

I disagree with offending another customer (the guy in the hallway was not exactly the VP of company policy), but have no problem with a company not permitting religious displays so long as that is consistently enforced.

How about you take some responsibility for precipitating "hostile behavior" towards you and recognize that
1.) You could have asked in advance as you have previously but did not, and
2.) You could have stepped outside the theater to a truly public space if they declined.

Constitutional issues aside, exercising religious rights in a private business is a privilege, and not an entitlement. You were not denied accomodation everyone else was being given so much as you made yourself un-accomodatable by your conduct.

I never said that anyone has a right to go and pray anywhere. I help give out Christian tracts on a public street where we have permission. If people dont want one, they dont have to take one. We have no right to go into a public business and give out tracts, at least as far as the law goes, and we dont do it. Anyone can pray to themselves anywhere anyway. I do have a right to talk about God to someone anywhere. Please dont categorize me as someone forcing anything on anyone. It is an easy thing to do when someone doesnt want to accept the Lord. Thanks.

Dear Cannot Believe:

I never said or suggested that I have a right to pray anywhere and anytime or as you term it "'any time, any place' prayer." My exact words were "Should businesses allow Muslims to pray? The short answer is ‘of course’ if the request can be reasonably accommodated." I certainly understand there may be times when a request to pray cannot be reasonably accommodated. As an attorney I also understand there can be limits on Constitutional rights and for example, falsely yelling "fire" in a movie theater is not allowed. To suggest that I am demanding a right to pray "anywhere and anytime" is simply inaccurate.

FYI, I could not pray outside--it was raining that day.

As far as asking permission first, I agree with you that asking is the better course. Before this particular incident, I usually asked first. Sometimes I did not--but I never had a problem. But there was no need for hostility on behalf of the theater employee. He could have told me the same exact thing in a non-hostile manner. So, I feel zip responsibility for his initial hostile behavior.

Also, your statement "Everyone is barred from praying in a movie theater" is inaccurate. I was told by the highest ups of the national chain that there was no policy barring religious displays. I also was told that if I need to be accommodated in the future, just to ask.

Finally, perhaps the children's book section in the library is not the place to belt out your acapella rendition of Oklahoma, but I would certainly support you if you wanted to belt it out at the Harbor. :)

Thanks Momof2 and Dana--the world could use more prayer.

They walked in tandem, each of the ninety two students filing into the already crowded auditorium. With their rich maroon gowns flowing, and their traditional caps, they looked almost as grown up as they felt. Dads swallowed hard behind broad smiles, and moms freely brushed away tears.
This class would not pray during the commencements, not by choice but because of a recent court ruling prohibiting it. The principal and several students were careful to stay within the guidelines allowed by the ruling. They gave inspirational and challenging speeches, but no one mentioned divine guidance and no one asked for blessings on the graduates or their families. The speeches were nice, but they were routine, until the final speech received a standing ovation.
A solitary student walked proudly to the microphone. He stood still and silent for just a moment, and then, it happened. All ninety two students, every single one of them, suddenly sneezed!!! The student on stage suddenly looked at the audience and said, "GOD BLESS YOU!" And he walked off stage.
The audience exploded into applause. This graduating class had found a way to invoke God's blessing on their future with or without the court's approval.
Please pass this story to all your friends. This is a true story. It happened at the University of Maryland.
God bless all of you and have a great Memorial holiday.

God must be pleased. His name invoked by feigned nasal congestion.

What a bunch of nitwits the religious! The world could use less prayer, less witnessing about the lord and less of facing Mecca, no matter when, where or how--direct order from Allah to pray-- according to attorney Samia--man o man! In the middle of court proceedings as the jury is belting out the sentence, "Excuse me, your honor, God asketh me to pray and I am ready. Hold on. Where's Mecca?" Down on the knees! The Muslims make a big fuss about their prayer sessions. What god ordered them to do--what a fat myth--the whole world must come to know and accommodate--the same for witness Clay--"The lord wants you to come to the Father!" he will spout "And only through Jesus can you achieve that!"--what a moron.

Attorney Samia, you certainly have a right to pray any place you want to and I, by the same token, have a right to be free of your prayer sessions--right in the middle of an airplane aisle, guess what, the Muslim will insist he wants to pray. Which way Mecca then won't matter but the show, the show must go on. It provides an entirely different kind of thrill, this prayer.. "It is a divine command" is only part of the compulsion. The other is the attention the compulsion brings--then there is the fodder for writings--the intimidating shoe, the furrowed brows of the opponent--all fiction material. Samia wasn't about to let this opportunity slide--wrote all the way to the top, received apologies and assurances that her prayer would be no bother at all. The worst thing about this five times a day prayer is not just the public display--it is absolute audacity for Muslims to think that the world should revolve around their prayer sessions. What about a Muslim athlete? Should he ask and be allowed to pray in the middle of a game? What about in the middle of an exam? Should proctors allow Muslims to exit for prayer and return after prayer--all done unsupervised? What about a doctor in the middle of a long surgical procedure after dusk? Should the operating table be facing Mecca in readiness for the prayer yet to come and then who should take over for the main Muslim surgeon? The anesthesiologist or the patient's stockbroker? What about time lost working when in prayer? What about Muslims overcome with emotion for god who want to pray longer? Do they get rudely interrupted and ordered back to work or should they be allowed to keep on praying? What about the Muslim recruit in the army who wants to pray in the middle of combat? Nice thought--prayer being better than war but what if this happened? Leave him in the trenches to pray while the rest march forward and get killed? Attorney Samia, you've looked at the world through your attorney prism--but just like you want the right to pray 5 times a day, no matter where, because of some divine injunction, for which there is no proof, except your faith--and we've argued this one before--LaRocca is expert at faith--anyway attorney Samia just like you want the right to pray--businesses have the right to be free of the need to accommodate you, to be free from doubts about whether you are using Allah to goof off-- surely there are Muslims who are goof offs or are there none according to the book of Samia?--then worry about how you are making up the work missed during your prayer sessions--if the work ethic of the praying Muslim is strong then of course there will be no problem--but if the work ethic is weak, if the prayers are long, if the work is not made up--and a firing ensues--it would be attorneys like you who would be writing all the way to the top for the slothful Muslim and arguing a case of religious discrimination-- a praying Muslim--or a praying Hindu--or a praying Christian--who wants to address the lord several times a day on company time is a drain on its coffers and a pain in the behind of his (or her) compatriots..
Ravensfan Anon

Bank Street, she said "reasonable accommodations" in the workplace, not jumping out in front of a judge and prostrating herself in open court. Do you really think that's reasonable, or are you just using extreme rhetoric to force your point? I respectfully ask that you take a minute to think about that BEFORE you respond. Maybe even take some time to research how Muslims pray... there are many circumstances when the religion allows them to make up prayers at a later time when its important to continue uninterrupted with what they're already doing.... watching a crappy movie probably wouldn't qualify, but thats only my opinion.

I am not Muslim, first of all. But where I work, all those who work 8 hours get a 30 minute lunch in the middle of their shift with one 15 min break sometime before the lunch break and another sometime after... plenty of opportunities for a Muslim to pray, since the 15 minute breaks are more or less left to employee discretion, and I'm told the prayer needn't be longer than 10 minutes. Also only 2 of the 5 prayers fall within "normal" business hours, but with three breaks anyways if another slipped in it wouldn't be that hard to pray. So the employer and fellow workers are in no way being put upon in this instance, the Muslim would just take her breaks like everybody else, and pray instead of rushing out for a smoke or buying snacks. Finding a clean, private (to avoid harassment or offending someone who doesn't understand) area is a little more tricky - which is the author's whole point. Employers already are required to provide this for employees who are breastfeeding mothers (to pump) or diabetics who would prefer not to use a public restroom to medicate themselves. Obviously, these are medical, not spiritual, matters, but if the employers already have to have a clean private space, surely it wouldn't burden them to let someone use it twice a day for 10 minutes, so long as it doesn't conflict with others who need it too? J. Samia, in my opinion, was only affronted by the hostility she was met with for doing something that she does everyday, as do millions of others, all over the world.

To Clay: I respect your desire to save people - I think its noble, even. But the way your going about it is actually hurting your cause. You will reveal more truth if you speak and act with empathy and compassion then you ever will with absolutism. I have been drawn to religions before, like yours and like Islam, and every time I am driven away again by the extremes of zealots. I know you are not Muslim, Clay, but you are displaying the zealotry that will forever prevent me from following your words or the words of your Savior. I humbly suggest that you think about what is more important to you... spouting dogma, or spreading the word of God.

That being said, I AM interested in learning more about Islam. J. Samia, are there any resources you could recommend? I am hoping to learn about Islam as the Quran says, not what others - zealots - have turned the religion into. Are there any liberal or progressive resources out there?

Sorry Bank Street! I thought you wrote the post before mine but I misread and now I see it was from "Anonymous". I apologize for the confusion, and I give permission to whoever manages this blog to edit your name out of the entry. Again, very sorry.

Coronis--religion and prayer are private affairs--they should not obtrude in the public space. I am glad that Muslims can postpone their prayers until a more suitable time and the divine command is not non negotiable. It seems to me, increasingly, religion is more about show than about substance--an employer is cooked these days. No wonder so many are tearing their hair out and not providing jobs---recession is only one reason for small businesses going under--all the constraints placed on them and the constant threat of bias law suits in the wings are other reasons. The whole point is this Coronis--10 minutes everyday, 2 times a day, may not seem like much--but there is little guarantee that these prayer sessions will not be long drawn or that most Muslims will make up for work lost.. Religion is not the same as a disease like Diabetes Coronis (or is it?) and breast feeding is not an everlasting state like Muslim prayer. The analogies are not accuarte..
Ravensfan Anon

Hi Coronis. So you die and stand before Christ to be judged. Your name isnt found written in the book of life. You say to Him "I'm sorry Lord. I would have followed You, but that Clay discouraged me from doing it. If it wasnt for him, I swear I would have accepted You as my saviour." What do you think He would say? In spite of what you may think, I am not advising it. Thanks.

Clay - Maybe you should ask yourself a similar question. Do you want to be standing in front of Christ saying you're sorry you didn't mean to drove someone away from him.

Coronis is right we will reveal more truth if we speak and act with empathy and compassion then we ever will with absolutism.

Just something for you to think and pray about.

If I "drove" someone away and that person didnt make their own decision, then that person should be allowed in even though they havent accepted the Lord. It doesnt work that way. The gospel says that God is revealed to all of us, and we have a decision to make. Coronis says "you are displaying the zealotry that will forever prevent me from following your words or the words of your Savior." That is a decision that Coronis has made. It is not mine. Thanks.

Clay - You miss the point. It's not about someone else's choice but what impact your words or a ctions had in them making that choice. Something we all need to ask ourselves as Christians is am I bringing others closer to God or causing them to move further away.

I guess I'm an optimist. I have trouble believing most Muslims would use their religion to cover up laziness. I'm not saying NONE of them would, there are lazy people from all walks of life. But several religious leaders in the Muslim world have spoken AGAINST taking longer than 10 minutes to pray because it causes an undue burden on the faithful and those around them. I personally feel it would cheapen the prayer itself if it were used to avoid work instead of to be closer to God. If someone really wanted to pray longer, they would have 5 chances.... usually only two would be at work, so I'm sure a reasonable Muslim would use a different prayer time to break records. I am not advocating the abandonment of personal responsibility, I just don't think spirituality and responsibility are mutually exclusive terms.
My point was that there are ways to find a balance between spiritual and secular life with a little common sense. We don't have to throw prayer OR sensible business practices out the window. At my workplace in particular, due to the break schedule already in place for all employees, if I were Muslim I could probably pray daily without most of my coworkers ever even knowing about it. Running a business isn't easy, but I have real trouble believing that the Muslims prayer schedule is central to the issues surrounding America's economic problems. And I realize that the medical issues I mentioned were not comparable to religion ("Obviously, these are medical, not spiritual, matters") but I was trying to point out that a clean, private space is usually available to certain employees anyways, so why not let your Muslim coworkers use it occasionally?
This country was founded on the principle of religious freedom, not of strict secularism. I would defend the rights of anyone (including Clay) to follow their religion, so long as its not used as an excuse to do unkind things or hurt people.

Your right, Clay, I do choose who to follow and who to avoid. I chose to give you what insight I have as a longtime "nonbeliever" who still isn't hooked - you can choose to take it or leave it. And Clay, thanks for the warning about eternal damnation, I'll keep it in mind. If I ever do meet Jesus, I hope he and I can have a good long talk. I think it would be an interesting one, whatever the outcome.

It would be a good idea to have that talk before you pass away. Thanks.

Coronis,
I repeat religion should be private--it should not obtrude in the work place--that said--I really enjoy the way you write--you are a terrific voice on these blogs--keep writing,
Coronis. Different people pray differently--Muslim prayer may be silent--others use incantations during prayer--I once traveled on a plane with a man who prayed and boy did he pray--he kept muttering his prayers to himself loudly driving me to drink. I gotta tell you Coronis, freedom of religion notwithstanding, I prefer that people keep their prayers to themselves--I don't want to see or hear them praying and when they make a show of it and say they do it because of a direct command from their god or their prophet, I have to wonder if sanity has not fled the planet Coronis..
Ravensfan Anon

Christ tells us not to make a spectacle out of ourselves when we pray. Thanks.

Hello everyone,

This is a really good discussion. I am a Muslim and do believe it is my right to pray when I need to. Why should I not be allowed to pray during my break time at work? My praying during time when I wont be working anyways will in no way hurt the company. Besides which every company gives time off for Christmas and Easter, etc. Those are days that are given for the followers of Christ. But we cant get permission to pray during breaks? That seems a little unfair, doesnt it? As for praying in public places. Islamic prayer is generally very quiet, much more so then most people are in these public places. Would you be offended by a nun quietly praying to herself in public? I doubt you would. Yet when a Muslim does it, it becomes a problem. People are offended. Clay I truly respect your fervor, although telling people they will go to hell if they do not accept your Savior is just not nice. Only God truly knows who will and who will not go to hell. As for your comment about making a spectacle of yourself during prayer. You are absolutely right for the most part. Only I dont believe I am making a spectacle of myself. I am prostrating myself to God. Not to anyone else. Their are Muslims who would use prayer as an excuse not to work, or just to make a spectacle of themselves. Which is truly awful. But because of them the rest of us should not be allowed to pray?

Coronis,

Your posts are great, and I respect your opinions greatly.

I would love to discuss Islam with you in more detail if you like. I am not a zealot. Let me know, and I can also help you get some resources as well.

Telling someone to accept Christ to get to heaven is the nicest thing you can do for anyone. Thanks.

I am a Muslim and I do accept Christ, his name in Arabic is Isa (peace and blessings be upon him). I accept his message and books as well as the messagesof the hundreds of prophets of the People of the Book,(Christians and Jews) to include Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joseph, Jonah, Noah and everyone of them back to the first ;Adam may peace be upon them all. As a Muslim woman I am guided to keep my prayers a private affair - the best of which is to be done in the innermost corner of my home. But I work outside my home and therefore must plan or make sacrifices - of course this does not include skipping prayers!

However, additionally as a Muslim I believe there is no compulsion in religion and that my faith is not for everyone nor will I try by force or display to make anyone accept it. Everyone can accept religion or not as we are all human beings with free will.

I will say though as far as prayer for those of us that are Muslims that work we are commanded to pray five times a day and as Samia stated the best way is to plan that out. I have worked in a variety of environments in schools, offices, grocery stores etc. Each one I plan where I will pray when I agree to work there and have chosen a life where I am close to home relatives or a masjid. Sometimes I have even had to pray in my car when traveling.

Our prayers that fall outside of those that one would usually pray at home fall almost year round in the U.S. during the lunch hour or otherwise between 3:00 and 5:00. I have always asked employers ahead if there is a room where I can pray and have shared that room alternating prayer times with others of other faiths. Fortunately this has never been an inconvience for me or any one else Muslim or otherwise that I have shared prayer/meditation space with.

It is disheartening to hear the disgust, fear and intimidation people feel from seeing others pray but everyone is entitled to their beliefs, particularly when it comes to religion. My prayer is a personal conversation between myself and God and I definately do not want anyone interrupting that whether they beleive or not. I'll take a secluded area any day to public view. This is something that requires planning in this country and permission but still should be allowable.

If you accepted Christ as saviour then you could call yourself a Christian. God bless.

Clay - If you are trying to convince others to accept Christ you need to do more than simple little one sentence repsonses.

http://net-burst.net/hot/witness.htm

Not everyone's a closer.

Anthony, do you think this lady was ready for a long response on why she should convert?

Clay - Probably not, however, I'm not suggesting a long response simply more than one sentence. Since you seem interested in witnessing I thought that link contains a lot of useful information you could use.

I give out tracts under a pastor who has a lot of experience. Thanks for your help. It never hurts to learn more.

Clay you are amazing......So this is how a Christian bigot speaks...I was wondering they were extinct.
Looks like some people think a Muslim prayer is like a Martial art practice.

But great comments btw usually I come across more bigoted comments on these issues.Samia I would like to see more articles from you keep it up.Coronis whatever book you get, dont forget to get the Quran. and read the chapter on Mother Mary,and also explanation of water cycle,earths creation,and embryo development.

You are never a bigot when you spread the word of Christ. To do anything else is to do people of other religions a disfavor. Thanks.

Clay, if "all" one did was spread the word of Christ that would, I agree, not be bigotry.

On the other hand, if one spread a small part of Christ's word while ignoring the fundamental values of treating ones neighbor with love and ignoring the admonitions against judging others, then it would be bigotry.

If Christ's words were used to pull people apart rather than bring them together it would work in the opposite direction from what Christ intends.

If God's word says that homosexuality is wrong, you are never pulling people apart by telling them that. If people who are told that say that one should be more kind and gentle, what they are ultimately looking for is for God to approve of their behavior and for Christians to accept that behavior. Nothing Christians could do spiritually could hurt that person more. If someone yells or cusses at them while proclaiming God's word, then that is wrong. I certainly have tried not to do that here to anyone. Have a good one.

Clay,

Once again, you bring the conversation to a discussion of homosexuality. One might think you were a tad ... obsessed. Or ... maybe ... curious?

That is what myself and Dana have basically been talking about. I spend as much time here on other topics as well. God bless.

That's a little disingenuous Clay. We may have discussed it in other threads but the entirety of what I have posted on this thread is as follows:

“Yeah. The more prayer the better. I don't think it matters much what faith or what language.” (May 27)

“Clay, if "all" one did was spread the word of Christ that would, I agree, not be bigotry.
On the other hand, if one spread a small part of Christ's word while ignoring the fundamental values of treating ones neighbor with love and ignoring the admonitions against judging others, then it would be bigotry.
If Christ's words were used to pull people apart rather than bring them together it would work in the opposite direction from what Christ intends.” (June 28)

That's two posts in the span of a month, neither of which have anything to do with gay people. BankStreet is correct in his assesment. I think you turned the subject around to homosexuality because you know I am queer from other posts. You fail to see me as a total person but see me only in terms of assumptions you have made about my sexuality.

That isn't Christian Clay. It was Jesus Christ himself who promoted tolerance Clay. It is He who told you “that one should be more kind and gentle. It has nothing to do with gay folk, or Muslim folk, or any other brand of non-Clay folk wanting “God to approve of their behavior,” but has everything to do with Clay thinking that others need Clay's approval.

But not in this particular thread, Clay. Not every issue dicussed on "In Good Faith" centers on homosexuality, but you seem to take it there, eventually.

Okay pop quiz Clay according to the Bible the earth was created before the Sun.Definitely you should believe in that right.My point is before believing anything you should try to be a bit logical.Certainly you agree that God does not make mistakes.How come he made such massive errors in the Bible?