Before they are shredded, the secret files of each parish, rectory, and even those of the Vatican must be open to law enforcement agents and investigative journalists. It will help remove the dark cloud that hangs over the Pope and his church. No pedophile should be left behind.

Silly Melvin. The "law enforcement agents" at the Vatican work for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF), formerly known as the Inquisition.

LaRocca,
What is your point? For ever the Vatican's papers will remain sealed? Or should remain sealed? Or what you, I or anyone else thinks does not matter--the Vatican is a sovereign nation and the rest of the world must take it or lump it when it comes to Papal decisions? The Vatican even though it is a sovereign country has diplomatic ties with many nations and missions all over the place--these nations can threaten to sever diplomatic ties with the Vatican unless and until the Vatican opens up its archives of rich obfuscations. The Pope can also be arrested, as some other heads of states have been in the past, during diplomatic visits to other nations. The International Court can open a case of large scale international abuse and human rights violations involving the Vatican and its leaders and demand a more thorough investigation--subpoenaing suspects, perpetrators and Vatican leaders to come defend themselves. Where there is a will there is a way--but there is no will. Melvin is not silly Larocca--you have repeatedly told us what is not possible and always included in your list of impossibilities the psuedo--invincibility of the Pope and Vatican sovereignty--so the Vatican is not subject to any rule of international law? Perhaps the Vatican thinks so but it is up to the citizens of this world to prove that the Vatican too must obey international law--even as I write, a German priest who worked in a school in DC has been recalled for molesting a girl in Germany when she was a minor and he may have abused other girls--what did the German diocese do? Transfer this guy to DC to take care of the German diplomatic pastoral flock--the Vatican must open its records--the Pope must stop weeping in Malta and other places--he must step up to the plate and vote for Vatican transparency--the torrents of ignored complaints, the threats to the bishops who would have cooperated with outside law enforcement, the consensus about the transfers of abusive priests, the obstruction--all must be laid bare--the Catholic church has been a top down institution for a long time now--the Vatican may have been set up as an impregnable old boy network whose inner unseemly workings are protected by laws made by people intent on keeping the outside world--outside. It is time to storm that fortress.
Ravensfan Anon

Anony, I don't think Dana is trying to write paeans to the "invincibility" of the Papal enterprise, but trying to be realistic about what can be expected. It is not like a living in the USA where FBI agents can suddenly show up and seize all the files for the prosecution. At the most, an indictment will be issued. Well in advance of that happening, or in anticipation of it in other words, there will be a massive destruction of files in Vatican City just in case. It is just logical. This will happen in Chanceries all around the world too.

The only realistic good that could come out of it is that the decent nations of the world could then reasonably lobby for the removal of sovereignty for the Vatican State. They could keep everything the same in the center of Rome, just not be a nation-state. Because they have a feeling of impregnability from their nation-state status, that leads to callousness in their affairs. "Storming the fortress" really means creating the considered, deliberate opinion that the nation-state itself is anachronistic. But I think this is probably what you meant anyways. If not, please don't damage any of the beautiful art objects when you use your cannons!

Cannons?!

I misunderstood. I thought r-anon was a "loose" cannon! I didn't know they were saying he "had" cannons!

It must be me. I don't always get it. Like last year when I marched for the right to "bare" arms. Everybody else was in fatigues. I was the only one in a sleeveless top.

Peter Fuchs,
I have nothing against the art objects--you don't proceed with justice based on what the other party will do--not good for some victims so must be slow, Vatican will destroy the papers anyway--so go slow or don't go at all--I am talking of the International Court Fuchs--is the Vatican beyond the reach of that court? As for taking away the sovereignty of the Vatican, I am all for that--if the hubris and the smugness, if the secrecy and the invincibility come from the sovereignty then the sovereignty has to go--but that won't happen any time soon--watch every mafia type Italian leader kowtow to the Vatican--it plays well in Italian politics to plunder the state, have many affairs if you are a guy like Berlusconi and then throw in a reverential word or two about the Vatican and Catholicism to seek vindication with the public--the Vatican, in other words is a useful tool for the political rascals of Italy, as are the political rascals useful tools for the Vatican--you see any light at the end of this tunnel? Most Catholics on these blogs are spending a heck of a lot of time enlightening the rest of us what is not possible to do about this church--just how far the world can go--as I myself have done in the preceding sentences-- to me the unequal justice is what is appalling--look what happens to the pedophiles who are not Catholic priests--they are either in prison--as they should be--or they live among us, branded for life once they are caught and convicted. There is no trial or conviction for these priests. Atrocious! The one thing that is possible is this: The International Court can and must look into prosecuting this church for human rights abuses. And what will I get for saying that--I am an anti Catholic zealot! The die hard Catholics want soft justice for their church--they think the church's good works balance out the bad--and they also remind us--paeans or no paeans--that from the time of the Inquisition, the church has been a clever puss--they wish the rest of us luck, these Catholics--"Good luck they say! It won't happen even if you wish it! JMJ! Can't you see we are not in favor of this church? But tread carefully because the victims will suffer! Go not where the angels fear to go--but even if you go there the Pope is guarding the gates and you will be repulsed!" Marvelous Fuchs!
Ravensfan Anon

Thank you Larocca for your compliment--of course you would describe me as a loose cannon considering I have not swooned over what comes out of the typing fingers at the end of your sleeveless bare arms. The worst loose cannons are those who roll at you with a measured cadence.
Ravensfan Anon

I don't think you're an “anti-Catholic zealot” R-anon. Though it is pretty clear you are not very fond of Italians. That may explain much of your unpleasantness toward me.

You asked Mr. Fuchs: “I am talking of the International Court Fuchs--is the Vatican beyond the reach of that court? “

Yep. Pretty much ymous.

You didn't specify which international court you meant so I'm going to assume that you meant the International Criminal Court since the International Court of Justice doesn't get involved in these matters.

Four conditions would have to occur for that to take place:

1. The crime would have to be one of genocide, crimes against humanity or war crimes.
2. The crime would have to have been committed on or after 1 July 2002
3. The offending state would have to be a member state of the United Nations. (The Holy See is just an observer)

4. You and your brain trust would have to convince the court that hiding a few documents is as important as the situations in Darfur or the Congo. While you're at it you might press our government to ratify the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. Since the U.S. And Somalia are the only countries who haven't ratified it we will look pretty silly getting all up in arms about children's rights.

“...so the Vatican is not subject to any rule of international law?” you ask. I wouldn't say it isn't subject to “any” rule of international law. Surely it is subject to the treaties it has signed, for instance. I would like to give you a better answer. So maybe you can tell me specifically what international law the Holy See has violated.

You are right in your assessment that “the Catholic church has been a top down institution for a long time now--the Vatican may have been set up as an impregnable old boy network whose inner unseemly workings are protected by laws made by people intent on keeping the outside world—outside.”

Yep. It has worked pretty well for two thousand years that way. Napoleon was able to get his grubby little hands on the Vatican Secret Archives for a while, but that didn't last very long.

Anony,

""you don't proceed with justice based on what the other party will do."

Well, you have summed something up here, but maybe not something to do with the Pope in Rome. Because in fact justice between state-actors -- nations --- is different from individuals in a civil society. For instance, we are unlikely as a country to seek justice against North Korea because it would be dangerous to do so. So proceeding against the Pope is different than our society proceeding against its own citizens who happen to be Catholic priests. I agree Anony that not enough of the perpetrators have been prosecuted. There are complicated reasons for this but none as important as this. Individual dioceses are willing to fight tooth and nail legally to get out of trouble. That is why I have always assumed that the only successful way to criticize the Church is by applying at least as much cleverness as they do. Or more so, if you got it. But beyond this the reasons they get away with it is that Catholics don't really care. Catholicism is basically only an "identity" for most at this point. This is even so for the most conservative types as well. Look at the Catholic blogs you mention. Ask yourself, who are these people? They are mostly people whose families make livings off the Church. They will continue as long as they can make the identity pay in some modest way. But they will be on to something later after they have remade their personas for a new identity. Meanwhile the clerisy is there to provide a bulwark for the identity. This is all, in a cultural sense, so far from what religion was in the past as to be like night and day.

But as to the Pope, well he is a nation himself. I loathe the Pope and his arrogance. But I am not sure what prosecuting him will get the world. Frankly, if you are looking for an epitome of the widespread sleaziness that brought on this scandal, logic tells me it is unlikely to be with this hyper-vigilant intellectual. Still that he was involved at all is reason enough for a resignation. But frankly, as a said, I would prefer to see the world keep its powder dry for the real fight which will be getting rid of their nation state. That would be done by showing their dangerousness in the world and their inability to truly regulate themselves with such a powerful, wide -reaching system. And, by the way, these are my views and reflect no one elses! But believe me I would not weep if he did get prosecuted.

Dana LaRocca,
Wouldn't abuse and rape of so many minors qualify as as crimes against humanity? The Vatican has not been involved in the rapes directly but it has been a systematic accessory to the crimes and its own crime is obstruction of justice that has enabled the secrecy and the shielding of the criminals. When the torrent of complaints started rolling in that's when the Vatican should have seen the clear and present danger of inaction and secrecy--a continuation of the abuse. The Vatican also has shown a callous disregard for what is common knowledge about pedophilia--that is not an easily cured condition--that offenders are likely to offend again and again. The Vatican took a "repent, weep in sackcloth and ashes, be forgiven and pedophilia will disappear--pedophilia is a sin that could be confessed away or a devil possession that could be exorcised away" attitude toward the abuse. You are right about the United Nations convention on the Rights of the Child--we need to ratify that. But barring the US so many European countries are also involved in this scandal and have ratified this UN convention. They certainly could take up this issue as an international crime against humanity--children-- to the International Criminal Court. What has probably-- happened in the Third World--the same kind of abuse--in Africa, India and so on---where there is blind deference to authority-- is yet to come out. The abuse certainly did not stop and I am sure has continued until now because old boy networks with easy access to children are natural magnets for pedophiles--doesn't matter the year--1990 or 2002--but I see your point about 2002--my own answer to that is this: there is no evidence that these crimes have stopped even today. The Vatican should be prosecuted for
aiding, abetting and later hiding crimes against children--a large and unprotected part of humanity. Countries that have ratified the UN Convention you speak of should bring the case on behalf of the abused and the International Criminal Court should do the prosecuting. Certainly the preachers of Rwanda who helped Hutus slaughter Tutsis during the Rwandan genocide were prosecuted by the international community. Crimes against humanity don't necessarily have to be dramatic like war crimes or massacres--they can also be insidious, occur over many years, occur behind dark curtains--like what Stalin did to the Soviets he sent to the gulag. That man should have been prosecuted for crimes against humanity--so too the Vatican--and Fuchs--one will not be so easily able to strip the Vatican of its sovereignty without also bringing charges against it in an international venue--to achieve the former one would have a better case if it pursued the latter.
Ravensfan Anon

Yes, rape could be considered a crime against humanity in some circumstances. That said, the cases of rape that have been brought before the court thus far are of a distinctly political nature accompanied by violence and sexual enslavement.

So perhaps charges could be made of rape or sexual violence. Of course this would exclude many cases that were consensual and others that involved fondling or similar conduct. Article 7, 1 G defines “rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, enforced sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence of comparable gravity” as crimes prosecutable. But article seven also insists that the party charged must be a national of a State which is a party to the Statute.

In all cases these accusations have made against men who were not nationals of the Holy See. Additionally, the Holy See is not a party to the Statute, formally known as the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.

So that's all there is to it my friend. The court has no jurisdiction. It just is that way.

My guess is that the Vatican will respond to sustained and long term political pressure. They don't think about things in terms of election cycles like we do. They think in terms of generations. If the current Pope is allowed to be the fall guy while at the same time the Cardinals push a man to the front who has no connection to these scandals then we might see a complete turn around in the next Papacy.