This tract sounds a little extreme, but there is nothing wrong with Chick tracts in general. If the Catholic Church follows many traditions that arent in the bible then they are always going to be under some criticism. The Vatican sits on a hill where prisoners were killed, etc. Some of the statues to pagans in the Vatican were renamed to be Christ's followers. If you have traditions such as this someone will always mention that satan controls at least part of the church. Thanks.

So, Clay...you're saying that EACH and EVERY particle of your religious/congregational experience appears verbatim in the Bible??

-Sunday School?
-A collection basket?
-"Rock of Ages"?
-paid clergy?
-a web page?

Your tepid disapproval of this tract is disgusting. Why do you insist on putting up barriers between you and your fellow Christians?

You know I am not a believer. Your brand of faith is reason enough for me to stay away. You are not a good advertisement for Christianity.

I thought this stuff ended in the 1930's. The old people in my family still recall the cross burnings at Catholic churches in Tennessee and Arkansas.

The tract is offensive, using the same vulgar references to the Eucharist that we used to hear from the K.K.K.. The cartoons are reminiscent of the vile caricatures that the Nazi's used to depict the Jews. The "tract" refers fo the "demonic power behind the wafer god," and refers to the universal church as the "great whore."

This comic book is not "criticism." It is hate speech. That said, it is protected by law. Protected in the same way that other comic books and pornography are protected.

We Catholics must take some ownership of the problem however. While the Jesuits were busy fighting for social justice and burning draft records they failed in their primary objective: To obliterate the Protestant heresy.

Ad maiorem Dei gloriam,

Peace,
Dana

This is what happens when people believe they have a monopoly on truth based on the accumulated, dogmatized, institutionalized myths and superstitions of their less than intellectual ancestors.

I give out Chick tracts for Halloween. I dont give out ones about the Catholic Church. Some are simple ones that show kids having dirt on them and then Christ washes them clean. I have been giving them out since 1995 and have never had a complaint from anyone. Last year I gave out 130. I also give out tracts that arent from Chick. Go to their website and read the tracts for yourself. If you have a complaint about the anti Catholic ones, write or email the company. You may also want to remind your priest that he shouldnt be giving a command to Christ during the service for Christ to come down into the wafer. I dont believe that Christ sees that as something that He should do. That is one of the things I believe that this one tract mentions. To call the church a "whore" is wrong. There are saved people in the Catholic Church who are very on fire for God. One thing we have to do when complaining about hate is to be sure we dont have any of it ourselves. Thanks.

Clay,

Mocking the rituals of other faithful people and calling those rituals Satanic seems pretty close to hateful to me.

Oh, and by the way, the Eucharist incorporates prayers ... not "commands" ... to Jesus/God.

The problem with Chick tracts in general is that they promote lies and distortions (misunderstandings?) of the truth. If the Catholic Church believed and taught any of the things the way Chick interprets them, no one would be Catholic. For a full analysis of Jack Chick's work compared to true Catholic doctrine, see "Catholicism and Fundamentalism" by Karl Keating. Or, for those with thin skins, instead read "Faith of Our Fathers" by James Cardinal Gibbons which is totally non-offensive.

I dont see any problem with Chick tracts in general. Read the tracts on their website. If they have been too strict in their criticism of the Catholic Church then that is wrong. I see many things in their criticism of this church that are true. This church was probably doing ok until Constantine. He is the one mainly responsible for associating the church with Rome and paganism. He did it for advantages to himself and his rule. The devil was able to move in and influence people. He was already involved with getting people to worship other Gods, mortal humans, etc with gargoyles or whatever and the church became associated with it all. The church is still associated with it. It needs to pull out of Rome and get rid of the whole mess. I like the renovated Basilica because I appreciate art in general. But look at how much money was spent on it and now Catholic schools are closing. Why? Because the church feels that it must honor these ancient traditions. Satan had his foot in the door and will until the church decides to kick him out. Look how much authority the Pope has and then all this stuff about making saints out of mortal humans. Who cares? What did Peter say when people fell before him? He rebuked them. The Knights Templar were the prestige soldiers of the Crusades. They became very wealthy and started the banking system essentially as we know it. They held secret meetings with secret codes for giving people credit. It is said that the Masons are what is left of them. Look at the symbols on the back of a dollar bill, the eye, the National Monument. They were also the second white men to reach North America, with the Vikings here around the year 1000, the Knights Templar were here in the 1200's and left markers in Minnesota and other places with their secret codes. They built a tower in Newport Rhode Island. Columbus in 1492 being the next white man here was associated with the Knights Templar because Queen Isabella had used some of their money for the project. If you ask a Catholic how it got started that people pray to Mary they will tell you that they dont know. Guess who first had images of Mary in their temples? The Knights Templar, along with gargoyles and images of Christ and you name it. It sounds all too satanic and complicated to me. I would rather keep it simple and just worship the Lord and follow His commands. It is a lot easier that way and a lot more Godly. Thanks.

Clay - The problem is you aren't following His commands. By trying to take the speck out of someone else's eye while ignoring the log in your own you are actually doing exactly what Christ said not to do. I won't even get into the numerous errors and inaccuracies in what you said.

Clay - Maybe instead of worrying about the Catholic Church you should worry about the Baptists a bit more. Considering the Westboro Baptist Church hateful protest during a funeral, the willful violation of both Hatian and International Law by the group who tried to illegally sneak kids across the boarder and the group then burned non KJV Bibles and books ny Billy Graham and Mother Teresa. That kind of goes back to that idea of removing the log from your own eye that Christ taught.

I dont go to a Baptist church and I dont support any hateful acts. I believe the people in Haiti were released? And I only gargoyle with Listerine. Thanks.

Clay - My point with the Baptists is simply that you should focus on yourself and your own church rather than make comments and judgements on others. All but the leader have been released, but I suspect they will release her as well. While I don't believe she should be punished she did violate the law and lie to authorities.

I've always bemoaned Chick's virulent anti-Catholicism. I read his other works wherever I find them. He's just about the only American comic artist I really like, but since he slanders the Church I just stick to manga.

That pastor should acept grace from god not to hate him tell him read through out the 2000 years of the church and in which the animals even bowed down to it sheep, horses Eucharist it is christ, one prist doubt it a baby very young not talked yet said its frist word which is something like jesus something and he put out a couble of ones that have not been consecrated
yet and only one that has and he pointed out saying beautiful jesus to the consecrated host everytime.

Craig,

Huh?

Three things:

1. Father Hatcher and his congregants need to man up and ignore this idiocy.

2. To Dana: I would hestitate to call this "hate speech," a left-wing term meant to silence anyone who disagrees with the left, including orthodox Catholics.

But Dana is correct, this Chick tract and others, undoubtedly, is just more Protestant heresy that needs to be fought with objective truth of the Magisterium.

Mr Flegenheimer,

Hate speech is very real. The left did not invent Fred Phelps.

Intelligent, rational people can distinguish between between disagreement and hatred. Intolerance and rigidity breed hatred. Speech inflamed by intolerance and rigidity can quickly become "hate speech."

Mr. Flegenheimer,

To speak of the Magisterium as "objective truth" belies some arrogance, I'd say. While it may be *your" truth, that alone makes it something other than "objective." Confidence in your personal convictions, while admirable, doesn't endow them with universal validity.

God Clay--you mean you only gargle with Listerine--or are you punning? Christianity, I see, does little for one's ability to spell.
Ravensafan Anon

Anon – 12 years parochial school didn't much for my ability to spell. I guess Catholic education isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.

ravensfan - 12 years of papal programing explains a lot about your intransigent nature.

Robert - You mean that I expect someone to support accusations and claims? Actually those 12 years were spent not only being taught my faith but being challenged to examine against others and the secular world you tout so much. Maybe if you had had a similar one you wouldn't be so loud of voice and narrow of mind.

The MAIN problem Baptists have with catholic teachings is that MILLIONS or more will NOT be saved thru Jesus Christ and will not be in heaven when they die! Those who trust "the church" and trust THEIR teachings and not the Bible's are why Chick tracts are passed out; to reach those people! The Bible is CLEAR: "No man cometh to the Father, but by me" John 14:6 for just ONE EXAMPLE! The "priest" cannot intervene for ANYONE! This is only one small example here! Also, the Bible teaches "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" which puts holes into catholic teachings on purgatory! If those who are SO upset over these "lies" in Chick tracts would just READ the Bible and not put trust in their priest to do it for them maybe THEY would be able to see! Whose the unintelligent here? And "hate speech"? Have YOU READ the Council of Trent?? And an obvious catholic just wrote here that there was a failure of Jesuits to "obliterate the Protestants"; is THAT not "hate speech"??? People, just READ THE BIBLE! There is NO teaching from Jesus there where we are to let a man say words over a wafer and call it His body! HE SAID to take this bread in REMEMBRANCE of Him and He was ALIVE and present at the time! He DID NOT CUT HIS FLESH OFF! We just want EVERYONE to accept Christ into your heart, let His death, burial and resurrection SAVE you! NO ONE and NOTHING ELSE WILL! The third from the last verse in the Bible says NOTHING is to be ADDED to the Word, therefore, NO MAN or "church" is above His Holy Word! And Mary was a BLESSED VIRGIN, but NOT God's "mother" because God was and is and always has been! Just read it in the Bible if you don't believe little ol' me! In Christ, J.

Amen Jaime. It is hard to get Catholics to change their hearts towards God when the devil has told them for so many years that their way is the only way. When they follow this instead of God's word in the bible they are being proud and pride comes from the devil. The best to hope for is to be loving and to point out things in their own bible to them and pray. Thanks.

jaime c - Your knowledge of the Catholic Church is flawed. Catholic teaching comes from the Bible. In fact it is the Catholic Church who is responsible for putting together the books in the New Testament you quote from. The Church does teach Christ is the only way to the Father. By the way you do not understand the meaning of 2Cor 5:8. You might want to read the surrounding verses and reflect on the complete meaning rather than simple quote a single verse out of context. Do you remember what Christ said about judging others? That seems to be an area many Baptists seem to have trouble with. Maybe you could explain the Baptists at Westboro or the group in NC who burned books including works by Billy Graham and Mother Teresa as well as all non KJV Bibles. In the end no one denomination is going to save any of us. Instead of looking outward might I suggest you look inward at yourself and your own Church and look for ways to walk closer to Christ. Dave Armstrong wrote a book “A Biblical Defense of Catholicism” He’s a former Evangelical Protestant who originally did research entice his Catholic friends out from under the yoke of Rome and ended up becoming Catholic. It’s certainly better then one line quotes twisted to say things not intended. If that’s not your thing try reading CS Lewis he wrote some good books which are favor no denomination. Clay you would do well to follow that advice as well.

Anything that divides Christians is not of God. Jack Chick is a man blinded by hate. He knows that he misrepresents the teachings of the Catholic Church and just doesn't care. He is more interested in making money. The more inflamatory he is, the more money he makes.

Anyone with intellectual integrity, and by that I mean anyone with an open heart and an open mind, who studies Catholic doctrine and the biblical and historical foundations,for those beliefs will eventually join the Catholic Church. Jesus started only ONE Church and the Catholic Church is the only religious body that can legitimately claim to be that Church. I invite you to prove me wrong,and so, challenge you to take an honest look.

If you want to know what the Catholic Church really teaches. go to www.evangelizationstation.com

It is one of the most comprehensive Catholic sites on the Internet. You can also ask any question tou want concerning the Catholic Faith and get an answer from an expert.

Like Jesus, the Catholic Church's goal is to unify, not divide.

Victor Claveau - In as much as there is not one tiny shred of evidence that a god (any god) exists, or has EV ER existed, then your entire premise that Catholicism represents any kind of absolute truth, is patently absurd. God is the end result of a failed search for truth by a very shallow mind, provided any such search was made in the first place, instead of just signing on to the vat of bilge fed to you as a child by an archaic hierarchical institution, more focused on the concentration and exercise of power over deliberately created clueless minions.

Robert, well put--and how many times have you been saying this--not one religious nut has changed--I believe the religious are inured to slavery. If the current Pope declared an emancipation proclamation--which he won't because he is a despot-- the Catholic devotees will kill him and get another pope to give out edicts. Slavery is a very addictive phenom. Religion is a creation of slaves--if released the slaves will go berserk, run amok and annihilate the world in one fell swoop. It is better that they have their their god fixes and annihilate the world at a slower pace in fits and starts.
Ravensfan Anon

Robert & Annon - Somehow you both seem to be living under the logical fallacy that something needs to be proven to your satisfaction in order to exist. Actually the evidence is there. You both just refuse to accept it and go on your way convinced in your own superiority. That’s why few try to offer any. If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away. Just as close biased and bigoted minds like Ahmadinejad can be rationalize or explain away events like the holocaust so can anyone who wants to do the same with God. Maybe that’s why you both spend so much time and effort on abusive ad hominem attacks and appeals to ridicule to people who aren’t even discussing God or faith with either of you.

ravensfan - So far, not one person from your side of the delusion chasm has been able to offer up one bit of proof that a god (or gods) exist, or have EVER existed. Our (Anon & I) have standards of proof that require at least something you could put forth that is not dependant on faith ,wishes, fairy-tales, accumulated myth, superstition, or outright lies. As yet you have not offered anything that passes the sniff test of reliability, it amazes us that you persist in maintaining that such "proof" exists, if only we would accept it. Cough it up if you can, we'll examine it.

Robert - I'm not interested in Anon's or your undisclosed standards. If I were interested I’d want you to clearly define what those standards are since I don’t like people making up the rules as they go. However, as I've said many times I have no interest in or obligation to prove anything to you. What amazes me is you somehow feel that I should actually be concerned with your personal opinion on the subject as if you are the final arbiter of truth. I’ve already witnessed your response to people who attempt to logically present information to you. It usually ends with a diatribe from you full of abusive personal attacks and appeals to ridicule. Anon isn’t much better. Based on those exchanges I see no reason even try. If it makes you feel better to view that as a victory for your views it’s of no consequence to me.

Why Littel how strange to see you here demanding proof from others when you did everything but provide any for your own delusions of corporate uber wealthy takeover you blow so much smoke over. You take that on faith since you’ve yet to provide ANY proof. I guess besides being a liar that makes you a hypocrite as well.

rino - The proof that we are being taken over by corporate wealth is as plain as anything can be. The Republican Party doesn't even make a pretense of denying that they are the party in the pocket of monied interests, and now that the so called Supreme Court has all but handed over the government to those with the most money, we are now on the verge of becoming, if not in name, then in fact, "The Corporate States of America".

When the forces of wealth can fleece the economy for their own benefit, trashing it in the process, then get the fleeced schlubs in the middle to blame the poor for all their troubles, the depth of their control is all that more obvious. That you are working for corporate interests (possibly being paid to do so) is not something I would want hanging around my neck if the silly delusionalist happened to be correct (biggest long-shot in history) and you end up explaining your actions to their vain vindictive god creature.

When people turn to the Bible as the sole centerpiece of their faith, then they must trust themselves to interpret it correctly. How many people lose their souls for an improper interpretation of the Scriptures? There are hundreds of protestant sects, each claiming their own understanding of the Bible. They can't all be right. You know what it says about anyone who changes even one iota of the verses therein.
The true Catholic Church was founded by Jesus in the year 33 A.D., and has remained. Since 1960, it exists only in exile and in the remote wilderness, because the time of evangelization is over, as is the age of grace.

"The proof that we are being taken over by corporate wealth is as plain as anything can be" - then you shouldn't have trouble proving it should you. Everything you said is a vague and unsubstantiated as anything anyone has said regarding God yet you demand proof. Face it Littel you operate with two standards. One for those you agree with and a different one for yourself and those who share your radical views.

rino - Each of the richest 4000 or so Americans, who as a group control 1/2 of ALL the wealth in the country, has an average wealth equal to the average of 79,000 of the rest of us. The Right-wing magazine of wealth, "Forbes", is the source for that bit of information (the concentration of 1/2 of all wealth) and it was a point of pride, on their part, when they revealed it. This is all the proof we need to show that corporate America has been acting as a money funnel to the top, and you KNOW THAT ALREADY. You have just chosen to serve the criminal operation, maybe hoping to collect some crumbs from their table, but they really don't give a rat's butt about you as long as you can be used. I will not be played by the likes of you, so you might as well get used to it.

Littel – You’ve already used this invalid justification. The fact that wealth is spread disproportionably does not prove your claims. You've proved nothing criminal Wealth has always been spread disproportionably in this country. That’s pretty much true in all capitalist economies. Maybe you should consider that quite a few on the Forbes list you quote like the Bible did not start out wealthy. Quite a few of them had rather modest beginnings. That would indicate that it is possible to change wealth. There are those who have managed to go the other way as well. What’s hypocritical is you claim that Forbes article is all the proof you need yet someone who quotes the Bible or some other historical texts you ridicule as providing inadequate proof for God. You are quite the hypocrite aren’t you. You can call me all the names you like that doesn’t change the truth and the truth is you can’t prove your delusions. You also still fail to offer any solutions for your deluded theory. You ignore the power of unions, trial lawyers, and other liberal organizations while crying about this deluded fantasy of corporate takeovers. Maybe you could explain how asking you to prove your claims and what solutions you would offer is playing you. The only one playing you is the radical left who have you bleating like a good little liberal sheep. You are about as out of touch as the right wing lunatics who rally behind idiots like Limbaugh, Beck and Palin.

rino - I WILL NOT BE PLAYED BY THE LIKES OF YOU! BITE ME!

Littel - You are being played but it by the extreme left not me. All I'm doing is asking you to actually provide proof of your claims and suggestions for what yuo think could be done about them. You unwillingness to do either and instead attack me pretty much confirms what I suspected you can't provide any proof and you have no ideas.

rino - You are not going to play me because I know exactly what you are doing and why. I have made the case for the allegations I have made, even using sources that even you cannot refute, because they are from your side of the track. Your tactic is to dismiss them out of hand and launch again on your personal vendetta designed to wear me down and give up. There is nothing I can offer you that will get you to concede a point because that is not why you are here. I have dealt with you before in other forums under a plethora of names, or someone just like you using names like AlbertJ, Jim Hargrave, silverbrunogate2008 and many others, all trying to manipulate the forum to paint the truth as being beyond believability. You are all using the Karen Hughes handbook on battering an opponent when they are in possession of the high ground and lying is one of the primary tools employed in the process. You have to put me on the defense, so that I will waste my time justifying my position, when it is yours that needs the attention. You disgust me here, or anywhere you you try to infect.

Littel – I know you know what I’m doing that’s why you blow so much smoke and make personal attacks and lie about me in order to avoid what I’m trying to do. Get you to actually provide reasonable, rational and logical proof of your fantasy. All you made the case for is that wealth in this country is not evenly distributed. You haven’t offered anything yet so you can’t possibly know how I’d respond. I have no idea who those other names are and what other forums you go on but we have never corresponded until the Sun blogs under faith. If you were on the high ground you would have provided more than an article showing uneven wealth distribution. You also would have answered my question about what you would do to fix your perceived problem. The only one trying to manipulate anything is you. Like most far left fanatics you cry about alleged crimes, conspiracies and produce nothing to back it up. You seem to feel it’s true because you say so or some liberal talking point memo contained it and that if you cry the sky is falling long enough the rest of us will believe you. You are on the defense because you can’t support your claims. If you could you would either have me on the defense or agreeing with you. I really don’t care what you think of me Chicken Little. What I care about is the combination of bilge and misinformation you spread. I won’t call it lies because you are too stupid to realize how far from reality you really are.

rino - Like any member of an organized society, you are invested in the maintenance of the currently operation system (status quo) , as long as you personally can derive benefit from that system's continuance. You will persist in that, even if it becomes heavily imbalanced and mass numbers of others have to suffer, or be repressed, (classic Right over Left argument) in order to maintain it. The difference is that you , like the Patricians of Rome, defending, righteously satisfied, by what at the last was an Empire collapsing all around them, continued on as if all was as it should be. I find no common ground on which we can communicate, because what is needed at this time, if we are to have anything meaningful coming out at the other end of our now spiraling, exploding world, is decisive and radical solutions (radical meaning new and functionally possible) to replace the trainwreck the status quo is heading us into, the status quo you are demanding we all bow to in reverence. We have met the enemy, and he is you.

Littel - Like a true left wing radical you assume that those who do not subscribe to your unsubstantiated paranoid ravings must support the status quo. There are more than just your deluded views and the status quo. Yet again instead of making the case for your claims and giving workable solutions you simply resort to trying to discredit me. You are a true disciple of the radical left wing. You make judgments about me solely based on the fact I don't subscribe to your deluded conspiracy theories. Since you haven't actually put forth any ideas for radical change I really can't comment on them.

rino - And what would make you think I would be even the tiniest bit interested in hearing the comments that a committed corporatist like yourself might make in regard to any solutions I may put forth, which would, out of necessity, challenge everything you criminally stand for? I have NOTHING that needs defending, because it is your side that is in need of full accounting and correction. My solutions would be pragmatic and centered around the health of all of society, while your chosen perspective requires suffering and death on a massive scale, all to facilitate the flow of wealth into a few lucky pockets, without concern for the environment, the health of the planet, or the social turmoil that will result from the maldistribution of wealth (within and outside of our country). People as short sighted, or co-opted as yourself, make me sick.

Littel - You have no valid ideas that's why you don't mention them. All you know how to do is echo the same radical left wing nonsenses over and over. If you want to cry the sky is falling then you DO need to give ideas. Anyone can complain. You still presume to know about me solely on the basis that I ask you to PROVE what you say. In the end you are part of the problem. The really pathetic thing is you are too blindly stupid to realize it.

rino - It is my ideas that you are trying to mitigate because they expose the criminality you have signed onto. Saying they don't exist is not going to make them go away. You are a dogmatic Rightist whose political ideology requires a fundamentalist, religious like, acceptance of doctrine, with no room for flexibility to deal with a changing reality. If something doesn't fit your intransigent mindset, it is anathema. In the real world, that makes you the butt end of a donkey.

Littel - You have put forth no ideas so how could anyone mitigate them? What you have put forth is unproven radical left wing propaganda that you've bought into. You are quite the liar as well. You are the one claiming no middle ground, no room for compromise yet you say I'm the one with no room for flexibility. You can't produce ideas or support your radical claims so you resort to the only thing left character assaination and reductio ad absurdum arguments. You are pathetic.

If you are going to call every idea that doesn't agree with your rigid doctrinaire world view "radical left wing propaganda" and then dismiss it out of hand, then you have clearly made the point of my last post. Thank you for making the case that you are a complete dogmatic dolt.

Littel - You have made no ideas other than your deluded conspiracy theory which you never supported with any evidence. All I’ve done is disagree and suggest if you could prove them I would consider maybe even agree with you. Instead you choose to make personal attacks proving that can not support your theory. Let me simplify this down to your level. Lets hear some specific ideas of things that you think are wrong, and what you propose should be done to fix them. Drop the rhetoric and the abusive personal attacks and show me you can actually have an adult level discussion on real issues without resorting to mindless name calling.

rino - I have, over the months that I have participated in this forum, already made my case several times over. I have made the case and aside from idiots saying that it is "left-wing propaganda" and dismissing it, or like you are trying to do, put me on the defensive when it is your side that is committing the criminal acts that have bankrupted and even killed, all to serve those of ultra-wealth at the top, a case I have made several times and have no interest in making it again for your turn at dismissing it, just because it strays outside your infantile perception of political reality.

It is not "theory" that 1/2 of all wealth sits in the pocket of less people than live in the small village where I currently reside.That is proven FACT. the only way such accumulations of wealth (which is power) to end up in so few hands, is by deliberate manipulation. No free and democratic society would freely choose to allow such a disproportionate maldistribution of wealth and power unless the game has been rigged. We are a owned and cheaply bought nation whose current direction, if left unchecked, will more represent the type of paradise currently enjoyed in Guatemala, where rigid Right-wing dogma is all that is allowed and 98% of all wealth sits in the pockets of 2% of the population. We are not far off that mark here and with people like you doing the job your doing, it may soon come to pass. The only saving grace for us is that the total amount of wealth is so large that the average person has yet to come to grips with the fact that their average net worth is 1/79,000th of that of the average of the richest 4000. You demand that I defend a "theory" that I'm afraid is already a reality, and a reality you support. You have some explaining to do, not me.

Littel - All I have seen you do is take the reality that wealth is not even distributed among everyone and use that to make unfounded and unproven allegations. You have offered no proof of anything criminal as of yet. You have offered no proof of what the total wealth in the country or world is although I will concede it disproportionate. You have offered no evidence of how that causes any of what you allege. It's mere existence doesn't prove anything. You entire basis for support is an article from one magazine Forbes. What is not a FACT is that "accumulations of wealth (which is power) to end up in so few hands, is by deliberate manipulation" You need to prove manipulation on a large scale which you haven’t. You need to prove how voters are conned or manipulated which you haven’t. All I've done is challenge you to prove what you claim. I also challenged you to offer solutions to correct the things you rail against and have NEVER heard anything from you. Instead personally attack me and make baseless accusations because you can do nothing else. A perfect example of left wing idiocy and makes a nice contrast to right wing idiocy. You've bought into the paranoid ravings of the left so much that your brain is closed off to reality. What we need is real workable solutions to fix our problems and brain dead morons like you will never come up with any because you’re too busy attacking anyone who questions your dogma of ignorance. Here’s some advice. You want to convince people stop saying the same old nonsense over and over and drawing Ignoratio Elenchi conclusions. Either provide some valid evidence to support your claims and produce some solutions I’ve wasted enough time on you.

rino - Strange that you continually try to paint yourself as a centrist, making mention of the "radical right" but NEVER attacking anyone, or anything, that smacks of radical Right-wing nature, when it is posted. You seem to be playing a game where if you can get away with claiming to be a centrist, then centrists might start identifying with you and become sympathetic to the idea that those who in fact are arguing for the causes of the center (affordable health care, equal rights, freedom to make their own breeding choices, and not being bled to death by a banking system that pretty much robbed us blind and is now holding us hostage as they reset priorities that give them back all the leverage they abused the first time around). If these are radical leftist positions, then the center is in fact radical leftist by your definition. The center is becoming aware that things are not working well and that they are taking the brunt of the economic beating being meted out by those who control our economic system. Unfortunately, a good number of them, having never to face this reality before, have latched onto the easiest sounding rhetoric they can find to explain what has happened, they are blaming the poor and the "evil government" with people like you giving them a false rationale to win them over to the corporate side, where they can be used and abused some more and if you are successful, they will remain clueless as to how they are being manipulated. Your fear is that enough of them will figure out what is really going on right under their nose and begin to hold our entrenched and highly organized "Uber-Class" responsible for the collapse occurring, due to their undue influence (wealth/ power) and self-serving meddling in every aspect of society, all to benefit THEIR bottom line.

The fact that the problems are complicated makes addressing them all the more difficult, due to the natural tendency of the mass of society to not want things complicated. To most of the country, the simple answer, even when totally wrong, is preferable to the complicated, hard correct answer. When you are arguing for the maintenance of the status quo (even though highly corrupted) is only a matter of making those asking us to face the truth sound like they are outside the realm of reality, because what they are demanding is that we face up to the reality that eventually will slap us in the face, no matter what we, (as you are asking) don't do.

We can either make the difficult choices now to deal with the mounting problems facing our society, or we can defer to our "betters" who control the mechanisms of society at the moment, and whom have shown no interest in where we are headed and how bad it is going to get if we sit in our complacent ignorance while reality rushes toward the inevitable societal ass-biting we are sure to get, if we do exactly what you are asking us to do. You are the problem and I would not be surprised if you are being paid to carry out this function.

Littel – I’ll give you credit for getting me to respond again. How many times have I called people like Limbaugh and Beck as big a problem as the extreme left and you? Once again if you intend to lie research what I’ve said in the past. I have never defended the status quo simply your extremist view of some sort of uber rich corporate control nonsense. Centrists don not say things like there is no middle ground or compromise. That is actually what we look for. You also never criticize anything on the left on what you call the radical right which is anything to the right of where you are. Extremist call for radical changes with no room for compromise and paint anyone not with them as against the. Here are two pretty good definitions I found some time ago.

Centrists espouse a "middle ground" regarding government control
of the economy and personal behavior. Depending on the issue,
they sometimes favor government intervention and sometimes
support individual freedom of choice. Centrists pride themselves on
keeping an open mind, tend to oppose "political extremes," and
emphasize what they describe as "practical" solutions to problems

Liberals usually embrace freedom of choice in personal matters,
but tend to support significant government control of the economy.
They generally support a government-funded "safety net" to help
the disadvantaged, and advocate strict regulation of business.
Liberals tend to favor environmental regulations, defend civil liberties
and free expression, support government action to promote equality,
and tolerate diverse lifestyles.
You are the far end of the liberal end. You are no where near being a centrist. Those ideals you want I want as well. Where we likely differ is on the solutions. You would probably have the government take over I prefer some government involvement and regulation. My only concern with the current health care bill being signed is can the it work fiscally the way claimed. I would have preferred more of a tax increase and less reliance on Medicare savings. I’m pro-life but do not see any need to change abortion laws unless science is able to prove human life begins earlier.
You still offered no proof or ideas for change. Instead more lies and personal attacks on me because you have NOTHING ELSE to offer.

Rino,
You are good--I like your style man--
you think things through--but I believe Robert gets exasperated with the middle because he sees the middle fence sitting--he thinks with his heart not just his brain--he probably thinks--to change things--to truly bring about revolutionary ideas into being no one should fence sit--throw everything you've got in the fray and then some--his arguments about the uber wealthy ring true--here's why Rino--explain this--Phds are still looking for jobs--Main Street is languishing--houses are foreclosing--infrastructure is crumbling but the DOW keeps going up--explain the chasm between our reality and the reality of the corporate breed--not that we are all not invested in this shit one way or another--through our retirement funds or something--but this discrepancy between the common man's reality and the reality of the big banks and the schemers, the movers and shakers is astounding--I agree with you Rino that the Left too is complicit in all the things happening--I am amazed that no one Rino, no one, except Madoff and a couple of others have gone to prison over the biggest Ponzi scheme in history--our economy before the collapse--aren't you?
Ravensfan

rino - What you argue for (and I believe you are being deceptive and duplicitous) is for a middle ground that has become the perfect killing ground for our rapacious blood sucking, and manipulative corporate Right-wing, who would love nothing better than a pliant Kumbaya centrist herd of sheep they can pillage and while doing so, make them think the blood they are losing through the wound in their back, is feeding someone else instead of them.

Anonymous - Thanks, I like yours as well. You raised some very good points a while back when Littel and I were going at it. He is passionate about what he believes I will give him that. I would not disagree with anyone saying that corporations and the rich wield too much influence. You yourself pointed out that one of Obama's connections to AIG. As you said the Left is also a party to the problems. To answer your question I think part of the problem is a mentality in the market where too much fixation is on stock prices as opposed to looking at the companies operations. That leads to companies fixating on how to keep their share price up leading to trading long term improvement for short term gains to impress the market which in turn leads to idiotic bonus and compensation packages. I’m sure that isn’t the only problem of course. You would think after the last crash or any of the others throughout history we would learn about the danger of too much speculation. In some ways the market is almost like legalized gambling. Not a pleasant thought when someone is playing with your retirement money. I have to agree I am surprised Madoff is the only one in jail. I guess all the other crooks managed to slink away under cover. We do need government to overhaul financial market regulations. Although somehow I can’t help feeling having Barney Frank do it is a little like asking an alcoholic to guard a liquor cabinet? I'm also surprised more exec's weren't cut loose from mismanaged firms. I was also not happy that the government did not scrutinize executive pay and bonuses more before using taxpayer money bail them out. I’d also like to see more fiscal responsibility from the government as well. Both parties share the blame, but it’s taxpayers who will end up paying the price if government doesn’t start learning to live within it.

Robert Littel - Nothing new just personal attacks on centrists as well as me. Not even an attempt to support your claims and still no statements of what changes you think are needed. With each post you prove more and more that I have you pegged.