Any person who starts a preemptive, fraudulent resource war to serve the interests of his corporate masters(Iraq), that costs the lives of over 4000 US soldiers and the lives of hundreds of thousands of mostly innocent civilians, IS IN NO WAY PRO-LIFE!

Sound bite politics coming back around to bite them in the butt. Ha ha ha.

War or not, any child who was born instead of being aborted because of the Bush administration will thank him for it.

What about those children who weren't born because of the war?

US Soldiers - over 4000 killed = Murder
Babies - over 46 million aborted = Genocide.

(Source: Allan Guttmacher Institute, 2005)

Those children not born because of the war? As Clay, our mastermind, would most probably explain it,--they made a pact with Satan--that's why they were not born in the first place--if they had been OK with God then they would have been born--don't you grasp that profound concept Rino?
Ravensfan Anon

I do not support abortion, but find it rather outrageous to see Bush get an "award" for being "pro-life" because his failures in foreign affairs, protecting the environment, and controlling the rich/poor divide destroy the sanctity of life. When "pro-lifers" ignore all of these problems, I wonder if they are smart enough to realize what being "pro-life" truly means.

Doug as Robert Littel and I have seen on these blogs, being pro life means forcing women to breed until the population of the world swells and fills every church across the land--environmental consciousness, peace instead of war, more science research to save lives, not spitting in the face of the poor or calling them parasites--you say such actions are pro life too? Well, Bush will call you wacko even as he rests his narcissistic body in a wicker chair, his vacuous brain and eyes fixed on the sere landscape of his rolling ranch in Crawford, Texas. My skin crawls thinking of the man. He was the worst thing that happened to this country --yes, he was pro life alright--pro his own life and Dick Cheney's--beyond that the man was an absolute minus zero.
Ravensfan Anon

As George W. Bush's actions speak volumes louder than his words, he is anti-abortion, but he has no problems sending 5000+ American soldiers to their early deaths during his eight year treasonous reign as Emperor of the Corporate States of America.
Yeah, he'll allow them to be born only to have them killed or maimed when they turn 18.
What's it called when human kill people?
When was the last time any of you took the time to go to you local VA Hospital and thank the soldiers even the ones who lost a limb or three?
We're waitin'...still

Perhaps if Muslims didnt crash planes into buildings the men wouldnt have been sent overseas to begin with. Maybe they should do some apologizing also. I am still happy for any babies not aborted. Thanks.

Clay - The fraudulent abortion of 4000 of our troops and all the hundreds of thousands of innocent a (and some not so innocent) Iraqi citizens in a fraudulent war, that had NOTHING to do with Muslims flying planes into the Twin Towers, is what makes George W. Bush not only NOT pro-life, but a mass murderer as well. If you are going to lie to push your twisted view of reality, at least try to make it credible sounding.

Anon - I asked Robert this question and he never was able to give an intelligent answer. Lets see if you can do better. How exactly to you know "pro life means forcing women to breed until the population of the world swells and fills every church across the land" It sounds much more like an opinion meant to divert from the real issue which is when does life begin and at what point does it warrant protecting.

Ravensfan Anon - I find it interesting that the forced breeder wannabes always want to frame any argument in a way that does not expose their culpability in the theocratist desire and crime of turning the country into a religious state.

ravensfan - Life begins, for the individual, when they consciously become aware that they exist. Any effort to make it sacred from the moment of single cell formation necessitates the presence of divinity in the process. Until such time as you can prove the existence of such deities and the role they play in the formation of the fetus, your perception has nothing to support it, and the force of constitutional law to prevent you from forcing your curious and unsupportable opinion on the rest of us. Now go away, your continuing attempts to force your will on us are becoming tiresome.

Robert - You are the one making the assertion about when life begins not me. Therefore the burden is on you to support your belief on that subject. Proof of God isn't irrelevant to the question of when life begins. We both know you can't prove you’re made up definition of when life begins. You are almost comical in the way you demand opponents prove their views to your satisfaction then come up with all kinds of opinions some outfight falsehoods and then act as no burden of proof applies to you. What makes it sad, however, is that you are too blind to see it, and claim to base your views on logic and reason.

ravensfan - As always, it does not matter because my opinion does not infringe upon your right to not have an abortion based on your spurious and unsupportable belief in god concepts. Yours however........

Robert - Once again you don't answer the question or support your claims. Instead you seek to change the topic. In this particular case I'm not discussing legality of abortion. It's already legal. I'm questioning your assertion of when life begins. Stop trying to change the topic. At least you did admit the obvious that it is your opinion.

Although I view Littel as either an extreme left wing nut case or puppet I have to agree with his first post here. Anyone responsible for the level of death suffered by US and Iraqis could in no way be considered pro-life.

ravensfan - I'm going to say this as plainly as I can and still get the idea across to you. I don't give a flying $#!+ about your concern about my interpretation of when, why, or how life begins, so stop trying to brow-beat me to death with something that concerns me not in the slightest way. You are just an absolutist troll, who has taken it upon himself to shut down someone who has the cajones to disagree with your "sacred" absurdities. Your ego gratification problem is bordering on manic and you probably should seek some professional help for your problem.

Robert - That really doesn't sound like the response of a reasonable logical person to me. It's always easy to see when you are backed in a corner. I simply asked a question and after dancing around and trying to deny the obvious that you can't back your opinion you lash out. I'm not the one resorting to petty insults about your views or getting all worked up over your narrow minded view so save the advice on professional help you need it far more than I. Now take a deep breath relax and enjoy your weekend.

ravensfan - I don't have to defend my opinion to you, or anyone, especially if you consider that if that opinion became the norm, your personal rights would not be infringed on in any way, except that old forcing women to breed against their will thing your opinion demands. You, and anyone who believes in your particular viewpoint would not be constrained in any way to exercise your right to not have an abortion. My opinion makes no difference personally to you, or anyone except those who would make women second class citizens and their opinion does not carry enough weight to justify that in the secular world.

I don't have to defend my opinion of the motives of your church. To me they are so obvious that they need no explanation. Your continued demand that I defend them is nothing but a smoke screen to mask your desire to grab the last word with a condemnation like the one above, that has no meaning except to try to shut me up by pretending I owe you something you do not deserve. If you think you can set the agenda for this discussion through such tactics, you are incorrect. As long as people like you argue for religious oppression, you will be held to the one requirement you cannot meet that would allow your view to prevail, you have to cough up this god of yours and prove that its nature is what you say it is, or anything you say, or demand from us is just so much rubbish, just like your stinking unprovable archaic beliefs.

Robert – No you don’t need to defend your opinions to me nor do I expect you to. As long as you admit what it is , an opinion, I really do not care what you choose to believe or not believe. Likewise your opinion of the church’s motive expressed as an opinion also means nothing to me as well. Had you said that in the first place instead of spending so much time trying to change the topic or personally attacking me we probably still wouldn’t be discussing it. My only demand as you put it was for your admission that it’s an opinion based on nothing except your personal views. Since I have never argued for religious oppression as you falsely claim simply shows how caught up in your own dogma you are. Exactly how many times does one have to say you are free to believe or disbelieve what you wish before it sinks in and you comprehend it?

ravensfan - I have repeatedly stated that you are free to believe any old pile of rubbish that you wish, as long as it doesn't negatively intrude on the beliefs of others. Religion, by its very nature is intrusive and you have mounted a non-stop campaign to engage me (and others) in an effort to stop our pointing out where and when religion crosses the line. Spare us your feigned impartiality and false Potemkin facade, it ain't selling here.

Robert - Intrusive is a relative term. I could just as easily say that militant atheist as you are intrusive to those of us who do believe. How many people posting have you mounted personal attacks on some who weren’t even engaging to you? I lost count of how many times you’ve done it to Clay and Pattycakes. Actually all I've done is point out when you do the very same things you accuse religion of doing. I've lost count of how many people you've maligned, mocked and generally treated disrespectfully so don't try and play the persecuted party. The only thing not selling is your hypocrisy and bigotry. Oh in case you hadn’t noticed this is a blog about faith so I’d venture to say religion isn’t intrusive here.

ravensfan - Religion, in my book, is intrusive when I have to wait until after noon to buy a lousy six pack of Guinness Stout, on the way to fish on Sunday mornings, because of religious Blue Laws. Clay, pattycakes and you, all want to impose more restrictions on the behavior of all in society, to satisfy your delusional beliefs and as long as you insist, you will be the target of our complaints. You, on the other hand, are not personally restrained in any way in your desire to follow your religion's principles by the secular rule that we insist prevail. It is religion's chauvinistic need to repress that makes us more determined to be irrepressible, and that is just something you are going to have to live with.

Robert - I didn't even know any of the Blue Laws were still in effect? Is that really the basis for your claims of intrusive? You can't buy beer on Sunday morning? I would have thought some bright atheist like you would have challenged those laws by now. That is unless the courts have held that there are non-religious reasons that make them valid. I can’t speak for anyone else but I have no desire to have any of my religion’s principals forced on anyone by secular law. I won’t deny there are those that do and they are wrong. That being said don’t play the injured party. You would force your views on my faith and would use the law to do it. In the end you are no better than those you attack which kind of makes you a hypocrite doesn’t it?

In my state there are still Blue Laws in place to coddle religious concerns. In many states, religious inspired restrictions on abortion have made it impossible for the poor to obtain the procedure and almost impossible for those with cash in their hand. And have you ever been to freaking Utah?

Robert - As long as the religious rights of workers aren't violated I'd support any push to eliminate any remaining Blue Laws on the books. Let's not get into abortion again since there are issues beyond religious beliefs involved. There's that pesky when life begins question which will always be a debating point. I've never been to Utah, but have heard a few things so I give you that one.

ravensfan - Abortion is the pivotal issue upon which religious interference is most illustrative of the violation of separation of church and state you are trying to sneak by. Your continued effort to sweep the issue under a rug by trying to disassociate the issue from the only point that would merit forcing women to breed against their will , that would necessitate making the fetus sacred , is not going to be ignored, or allowed to be foisted on the American people by subterfuge, or linguistic slight-of-hand.

You constantly say Robert, I or someone else is engaging people who are not engaging us--get over it--these blogs are part of a public forum--if someone does not engage you, you are at perfect liberty to engage him or her due to the nature of these blogs--besides, on these blogs a person is defined by his writing and what he exposes to those who read him--as such, he will be judged by the beliefs he professes--at least for this space a person becomes his professed beliefs--if he does not like being attacked for those beliefs he should get out of the heat in these blogs--not sob how unseemly personal attacks are--styles differ--an abrasive style does not necessarily become an unacceptable style--you are always able to rise to the occasion--in fact you have a penchant for the abrasive blogger, because it raises your hackles and exhilarates you to reply in a moderate voice--so stop whining about the personal assaults on the religious or the pro life camp--you are a self deprecating swaggerer yourself--oxymoron that may seem but somehow you fit the description.
Ravensfan Anon

Robert – You mistake my generosity for avoidance. My suggestion on avoiding the discussion was based solely on the fact that you and I see the issue differently and probably always will. Since you want to keep it going I’ll indulge you. That any religion has a position on any issue be does not make it a violation of separation of church and state. The issue is involved is when does life begin and warrant protection period. I often wonder why abortion supports like you try and duck that discussion. It's much easier to paint it as a religious issue than discuss the other I guess. Your continued crying over forced breeding is a nonsensical now as the first time you said it and I've already shot it down more times then I care to remember. We both know that the vast majority of abortions in this country are to avoid the possible natural consequence of having sex without using birth control. What would your position be if someday science proved life began sometime between conception and birth? Would you still support unlimited abortions? Since I don’t expect that anytime soon I expect the debate to continue. Why don’t you let it go you can’t convince me anymore than I can you.

Anon – I’m assuming you are referring to me. I don’t recall constantly saying anything about someone else engaging me or anyone else. I’m not the one complaining about people trying t silence or intrude on me. All I did was point out the truth that he and you do the exact same thing you complain about religion doing. Don’t confuse point out your tactics with whining. Like Robert you are a master of irrelevant conclusions. Maybe you should pass your suggestion about sobbing to your buddy Robert who thinks I’m somehow out to silence him from professing the truth.

The only way that science could determine that a person is created sometime between conception and birth, is if science proves the existence of that quality that makes a small mass of protoplasm take on a sacred nature that we normally assign to the self-realization aspects of person-hood at birth. In other words, a special quality that exists beyond understanding and implanted by an agent unseen and unknowable. No matter how you cut it, your notion of when we should extend person-hood rights to a fetus, demands the existence of a god that has NEVER been shown to exist. Your argument, therefore, is a pile of drek until such time as you produce proof positive that a god, ANY GOD, exists, or has ever existed. Your continued demand that a payment must be made for the mistakes made because sex is somehow a dirty evil thing, in your infantile parochial mind, is your problem, not society's problem.

Robert - Why exactly is self-realization the key aspect? Are you saying some mystical sort of self-realization aspect occurs at birth? If it isn't sacred after birth why would it be sacred before? Extending personhood before birth does NOT require any proof of God. When life begins is most certainly a scientific issue and your attempts to marginalize it into a religious one is simply a weak attempt at an irrelevant conclusion to avoid the real issue. I never said there was anything dirty or evil about sex don't put words in my mouth based on your own bigoted views on me. What I said is a potential consequence is pregnancy and that is a fact which is society's problem. You can deny it all you want but saying it ad nauseam doesn’t make it true. For someone who claims to possess a rational mind you sure make a lot or irrational statements. Do yourself a favor and drop it. We are both never going to reach an agreement on this issue.

There is a point during the gestational process when the fetus gains a degree of awareness that cannot be denied. Once we are thrust into the cold cruel world, slapped on the keister and take our first lungful of air, using it to voice our arrival and disdain for the process of coming into the world, there can be no denial of the phenomena of self realization, both in law and in the opinion of anyone who has witnessed the event. You are looking for a rationale to make the religious argument succeed in determining how we treat a fetus, because you know that in a frontal assault you cannot win the argument. You are trying to give flight to an idea that does not have wings and you are above all, nothing but a manipulating liar if you deny that is your position and goal. If it wasn't, we would have agreed to disagree long ago and moved on, but you, in a thinly disguised doctrinaire type of fanaticism, will not let it go.

Robert – No sadly the liar is you. This started as a discussion of blue laws and you brought up the issue of abortion. I’ve been politely looking for a way of saying drop it which apparently you do not wish to do. You are the one who seems to want to keep the debate on abortion going for some reason. I’ve already said neither of us is going to convince the other several times already. How many times do I have to say it before you get it? You just appear determined to try to brow beat me into accepting your narrow dogmatic views. You are great at projecting your own faults and issues on others. Go back and reread the posts and its clear which of us seems to have trouble agreeing to disagree and move on. I’ll try saying it again. Let it go and move on.

ravensfan - I don't give a rat's butt about what you personally believe, or don't believe, I just don't like the way you demand we respect the pile of crap you have managed to choke down and in doing so, made your self believe it is worthy of respect. It is not, and by your effort to make it gain a level of respect, neither do you.

Robert – Why change the topic to respect? I believe that’s called a fallacy of relevance. I guess you are too stubborn to admit you were wrong on which of us was keeping the abortion issue going. Instead you change the subject to respect. Your inability to conduct a logical rational debate is quite sad. You also seem to have trouble differentiating basic respect each of us deserves regardless of what we believe from respect for an idea or belief. I have never asked you to respect my beliefs. Frankly I could care less if you do or not just as I don’t care about what your misguided opinions are about my faith. Don’t confuse trying to teach a Neanderthal like you manners with any concern on my part about what you think or respect.

ravensfan - Manners? I mean really, is that what you are about? Is that the central core of what you are trying to do here, or is it just the excuse you are using in an attempt to shut someone up who will not roll over and let religionists and Rightists roll over them. I am fighting against the stupidity and ignorance that has infected our political and social institutions and your presence here is in answer to that threat. Manner, please, give me a break, is that all you have left? You are getting as pathetic as Clay.

Robert - Fighting against stupidity and ignorance? How by insulting, mocking and attacking anyone who questions your narrow minded dogma? What you are here to do is spread your own doctrine of intolerance and hate of anyone who questions your opinions which you spout of as if they require no justification. Spare me the fighting the good fight speech in the face of persecution. It’s a load of crap. Unlike you I have no specific agenda here. You need to get some professional help you appear to be suffering from some sort of persecution complex. Since you seem to have a need to feel you got the last word in I'll let you have it. I wouldn't want you to keep on crying how I'm trying to silence you.

Littel - You are the voice of stupidity and ignorance trying to infect political and social institutions along with your counterparts on the extreme right. The only threat you pose is to common sense.

rino - Still pretending to be a "centrist" even though it is clear that you are a lunatic fringe Rightist, trying to sucker the center over to the Right where they can vote against their own best interest. You are lucky they are easily distracted and generally a-political, all you have to do is lie to them in a convincing sounding way, and the Right is so good at that.

Littel - Coming from a deluded left wing nut job that sees right wing corporate elitist takeover nonsense your opinion is worthless. For someone who has spent so much time railing against religion as being deluded beliefs you seem equally willing to the deluded fantasy of the extreme far left. Fortunately for society wing nuts on both extremes represent a small insignificant number of the people. That’s why you attack them as being less intelligent. It’s how extremist minority justify imposing their will on the majority. You and those like you pose as big a threat as intolerant uncompromising nut jobs on the other side like Beck & Limbaugh. The only people who buy your nonsense Little are your fellow wing nuts. I’m sure it goes over great at rallies. To anyone with even the slightest bit of common sense it’s beyond stupid.

rino - You do not fool anyone. You are here to make anyone who exposes what is actually going on as being extremist. The last thing the corporatist accumulators of 1/2 of ALL the wealth in this country into 4000 or so pockets (statistics gleaned from "Forbes" magazine, who proudly admitted them) want, is for the common man, (who is being fleeced) to understand what is going on in this country. Your side just wants the voter to be , dumb, disinterested and distracted enough so you can continue the con without any mean old centrists like me rocking your boat. Sorry, that ain't going to happen.

Littel - The fact that we have extremely weathly people proves nothing. If that is all you have to support your theory then you have NOTHING. Come back when you have some real evidence and we'll talk. Until then save it for your fellow left wing extremists.

rino - The distribution of wealth is what is causing us to become an oligarchy. The average wealth of each of the 4000 wealthiest of our citizens is equal to the average total wealth of 79,000 of the rest of us. If wealth is power (and it is), the we are a totally corrupted society and you are arguing for that corruption. One half of all wealth in the hands of 4000 people, is the definition of institutionalized corruption and to support that (especially when you are not one of the lucky few) is as radical and stupid as one can get.

Littel - You fail to show how this oligarchy is occuring. In fact you fail ro support the figures you are throwing around. It;s rather ironic that someoen who has attacked so many over their religious beliefs having no proof that you so willing embrace the fantasy of the far left. You need to prove some sort of connection or show how the fact that we have wealthy people creates your oligarchy. You fail t support your claims of a corrupted society. That's the sort of claim I'd expect to hear from a religious person and not an atheist. Littel support your claims with evidence if you want then taken seriously. Otherwise you simply sound like a left wing sheep bleating.

rino - If you think that a system where about 4000 people control 1/2 of all the wealth of the country, isn’t corrupted by the effort of so few to control so much, when they have the ability (wealth = power), then you are either totally gullible, totally insane, or willfully in on the con. Our entire political system has been turned into a theater of the absurd. It exists to service the few at the top and they have gone to great pains (and expense) to make sure the play proceeds as they have planned, without too much ad-libbing. To offer you the proof you demand, I would need to take you by the hand and lead you through the entire rise of corporatism, that began during the frenzy of wealth accumulation that occurred during the effort to supply the troops during the Civil War, and the rise of the deliberate effort by these people of great wealth to put in place the mechanisms to insure that their interests became synonymous with the perceived and constructed perceptions of our entire political system, our educational system, and our societal myths.
The dictatorship of wealth is already in place and was put there over time by manipulating everything from our banking system, to the very economic principles tauted as sacred and inviolate by the flawed falsehood called the free-market. Our economic principles were not laid down by wise sages who understood the good of free-enterprise, it was a cob-job, made up as we went along. Profits were the only concern, no matter how ill considered our policies were to extract resources and dispose of the waste, of a plan to extract as much wealth as possible as fast and efficiently as possible, with no concern for the devastation to the environment. To insure that the wealth of the elites could increase without interruption, the “Expanding Pie Theory” was invented. In theory,(and early practice) it works to give everyone more by giving them a lager slice of an increasing pie, so that everyone gets more and no one has to take any away from someone else to increase their relative amount, as every-one’s slice grows. This is the basis of our economic system and in an effort to feed it in a world of shrinking finite resources, it is necessary that the ruling elites (the “Uber-Class” as I call them) maintain as much control over all aspects of society so that the lower classes will, when called upon to do their “patriotic duty”, march their sons and daughters off do die in resource wars, to keep the pie growing in what can only be described as the largest and cruelest Ponzi scam on Earth.
Now that you are totally confused, it gets much worse and complicated, and unfortunately, this forum does not allow enough time to explore all the factors, nor will the attention span of the average American reader, who has already dropped off the page. The complexity is deliberate, allowing the very real conspiracy being carried out by the “Uber-Class” to consolidate their own position, to progress and go unrecognized by the masses. The entire system is doomed to failure unless radically altered and it is the radical nature of the solution that has grabbed the unimagination of the masses to feed their denial. The “Uber-Class” full well realizes what is going on and they have decided to run the system into the ground enriching themselves on the way, rather than face the hard facts the the world is no longer the candy store they have always believed it to be, even in the face of the sugar running out. They have taken the easy path, and are dragging the rest of us along, to be discarded as excess baggage when no longer needed. The sad fact is, that so little concern has been given to collateral damage being done, that the rampant greed and the allowed expansion of world population (customers) means that we, as a species, may not survive it at all as we choke the planet to death in an effort to extract the last bit of blood from it. The proof you want takes 10 years of higher education and a mind open to the fact Humanity is being used. I cannot give that to you here, sadly.

rino - “Forbes Magazine” proudly declared that the top 400 richest Americans personally controlled 1/3 of all the wealth in this country. They also stated that they were all billionaires or multi-billionaires and that many who did not make that august list were also billionaires, but not rich enough for a spot on the list. If you take the next 3600 or so, of the next richest Americans (billionaires and those unfortunate souls that only control mere hundreds of millions of dollars), you will have to grant that given “Forbes’” figures for the 400, when added to them, the next 3600 bring the total up another 1/6 of all wealth, putting one out of every two dollars (1/2) of wealth in the pockets of a group that would constitute a mediocre crowd at a AA baseball game in Muncie. This is the “Uber-Class” and if you think they are not manipulating as much of our society as they can to maintain their dominance, you are insane.

Littel – I never denied the existence of wealthy people. That is true in any capitalist system. You claimed 4,000 people own ½ the wealth and as support you offer a story in Forbes on 400 and approximate the rest of the way. Have you even bothered to check where Forbes gets their information? My guess is no since you view it as supporting your claim. Even if you could support assertion on wealth concentration that doesn’t prove any corrupt society of oligarchy claims. There has always been a disproportionate allocation of wealth in this country as it is in most especially capitalist ones. Calling yourself a centrist would be like calling Limabugh and Beck moderates . Centrists look at both side and question both you only question the right. You cling to the notion that only your views are correct and anyone who disagrees is either paid by the right or being fooled. That son is an extremist. Now why don’t you go out and get some real proof and I’ll take you seriously. Until then you are Chicken Littel crying about the sky falling.

rino - Taking my figures directly from "Forbes" magazine, is hardly pulling them out of an anti-wealth partisan source. I stand by the figures and I stand behind the assertion that that much wealth concentrated in that few hands, negates any possibility of our being anything less than a wealth controlled society (Oligarchy) instead of the representative democracy our propagandized society purports us to be.

As to the mindset of centrists, we are quite aware of what the ultra-left is all about and how far we as a society would have to move in that direction before we become even slightly ultra-leftist. You on the other-hand, are on the far lunatic right and only one step away from donning Brown Shirts, Jack-boots and goose-stepping into an economic system just like the one established in Germany in the 1930's. Perhaps you should make the effort to actually study the paradigms of fascist economics and maybe you will discover that our right-wing, fake free-market, union busting, corporate centered system is becoming exactly like theirs, with socialism for the rich and free-enterprise for the rest of us.

Lastly, I am hardly "son" to anyone. I turned 21 at the original Woodstock and have an academic record that I would be glad to hold up against yours any day of the week, with a concentration in political and social theory, and enough economics thrown in to make it all interesting.

Littel – Well your response was what I expected. Continue to hold up concentration of wealth to support your paranoid delusions. Since you couldn’t actually support your radical views you then engage in name calling and personal attacks. All that does is confirm what I already knew that you have nothing else to back your radical left wing claims.

“I stand behind the assertion that that much wealth concentrated in that few hands, negates any possibility of our being anything less than a wealth controlled society (Oligarchy) instead of the representative democracy our propagandized society purports us to be. “ That’s straight off the a left wing platform Littel. You are no centrist and claiming makes you either very ignorant on political science or a first class liar. There can be no other choice. Here’s a fact for you one of the biggest contributors to the party currently in power is organized labor. So far you have provided not even the slightest bit of proof to your claims.

The fact that you need to brag about your academic record simply proves what I said on a different topic about the inverse relationship between talking about intellect and possessing it. Since you have no idea what my education background is making such claims is beyond stupid on your part. What makes you “son” is your childish immature posts which have less actual substance than my middle school son’s report on government. You want to be taken seriously or as an intellect then make an intelligent case and provide some support for your claims and save the rhetoric and ignoratio elenchi for your left wing political meetings.

rino - GFYS

Littel - Not really the response of an intellectual centrist. More like an angry extremist who has no rebuttal.

rino - Try someone who has about had it with your manipulative lying butt. Your purpose here is quite clear to anyone with even a tiny amount of common sense. You are spewing pure BS and your denial is only muted by your unending desire to shut up those actually speaking for the center, and yes, the left of center, who want this country run by the people, not by your stinking corporate masters.

Littel - You are a real piece of work. A true self proclaimed intellectual completely delusional and unable or unwilling to make an intelligent argument. The pathetic truth is you probably do think you are just left of center. Considering you are still pushing your never proven far left claims that corporations and some “Uber-Class” manipulating America trust me you are nowhere near the center. You couldn’t find the center with a map and guide that’s how far away from it you are. You are to liberals what Rush Limbaugh is to conservatives. You can’t defend or support your views so rather than try you make personal attacks and question the intelligence of people. Only extremists (right or left) call for “radically altered” economic and political systems. Centrists don’t advocate extreme changes . I challenge you to prove your radical views. All you respond with ad hominem and ignoratio elenchi statements. Keep telling yourself I’m the liar. Maybe if you say it enough you actually convince yourself.

rino - It is the center that turned on George W. Bush and the corporatist Neocons. They did so because it had become clear that mismanagement of the economy, handouts to the rich and to corporations, that brought our country to the brink of depression and the fraudulent costly and cruelly run resource war in Iraq.

The center is the prize and they can be cheaply bought because they are fear driven and impatient enough to want change when it is called for, but not sturdy enough to stick it out for the time necessary to fix a problem your side took decades to create. You are here to sell them a bill of goods for one purpose only, and that is to re-seize power and continue the rape your side had going before being turned out in 2008. You don't give a rat's butt about them outside of the use you can make of them by LYING them into voting against their own best interests. The center you are trying to con is heavily invested in the security they perceive to be a reality if we just don't rock the boat, but they are so politically naive, that they do not understand that people like you are punching holes in the bottom of that while exhorting them to remain calm and don't rock the sinking stinking boat. You are a fraud who offers nothing but contrived attacks against the real center and the slightly left of center reality you are trying to paint as a pariah.

Littel – What a surprise more ad hominem and ignoratio elenchi statements. Other than being partially right about Bush the rest is straight off the extreme left song sheet lacking any basis in fact. I’m not going to waste my time pointing out every inaccurate statement in that sermon of yours. What I will challenge you to do is show how asking you to prove your claims make anything you claim about me true. You did confirm my original remarks about your distain for the true center and moderates in general. You can’t convince them you delusional ravings have any value so you belittle them an accuse them of either being impatient, unintelligent or manipulated or some combination. I’m still waiting for you to provide any reasonable support for your paranoid fantasy besides disproportion of wealth. Give it up Littel you are outmatched and lacking ammunition to support your maniacal paranoid fantasies. Instead of attacking me and the real center try backing up your claims with FACTS.

rino - I seem to stand against much of what you seem to support, although whatever you stand for seems to be a nebulous undefined "middle ground" that defies definition. You seem to be playing both sides against the middle, but we all know that isn't your game. If I were a dishonest operative of the Right, who wanted to con the a-political disinterested voters in the middle to vote my way, I would pretend to be one of them and paint both sides as evil, knowing that the maintenance of the present status quo favors those out of power on the Right, who created the mess we are in in the first place. The failure of the current administration to fix everything in a short period of time, while being under attack by the Party of "NO", is being used by the Right as a weapon to play upon the impatience of the electorate much the way as was done by the victorious side in the political struggles in early 1930s Germany. We run the same risk of succumbing to the same type of outcome, because the politics of expediency always leads in a totalitarian direction.

If compassion for my fellow citizens, a sane foreign policy, freedom of choice on a wide level of topics, and an end to the dictatorship of the almighty buck in favor of democratic principles, makes me a screaming, fanatic, liberal, socialist pig in your eyes, then so be it.

Littel - What makes you, in your own words, "a screaming, fanatic, liberal, socialist pig" is nonsense like "the dictatorship of the almighty buck in favor of democratic principles" or your "(Oligarchy) instead of the representative democracy our propagandized society purports us to be". I happened to stumble on this post of yours on the blog on atheists offer porn for Bibles.
"The Buy-Bull is a book of fairy-tales. It is fiction with a smattering of historical content, pushing an idea that cannot be shown to be true. Unless you can cough up this god invention in a demonstrable way, there is no way that the imperatives of people who subscribe to it as the word of a make-believe god should be allowed to have any affect on those not corrupted by such infantile beliefs."
Maybe you could try coughing up in some proof of the fairy-tales you've been pushing here. Try following what you preach. You have no compassion for your fellow citizens unless they subscribe to the same load of far left liberal crap as you. Wishing someone dead because you find their political views abhorrent is hardly compassionate. I find both his and yours abhorrent and I would even consider saying that I wish you dead. You’ve done nothing but blow off the center as unable to make educated choices and worse. That’s why we need self professed intellectuals like you to make the decisions for all of those poor mindless sheep. The reason you can’t fathom where I stand is you are so far to the left you couldn’t see the middle with a telescope. You and the far right wing nuts stand for what we don’t need and most Americans don’t want. That’s why you discount them. I’m still waiting although not expecting you to back your claims. Instead you’ll probably accuse me of being dishonest operative of the Right some more since you don’t have any thing else.

rino - You are now dipping into a very dark and psychotic pool of absurdities in your effort to shut me up. I realize how important it is for the Right to silence the voices that are exposing what is going on in our society because heaven forbid the masses ever figure out how badly they are being screwed to the wall to keep the current con going.

You have even gone as far as accusing me of wishing someone dead because they don't agree with me, which I find an unusual way to justify your wishing me dead, as I don't recall making such a proposal at all. As for being an Atheist, you will find that not only is it a logically sound position to adopt, but is also a constitutionally guaranteed right in this country. I find your attempt to assassinate my character on the basis that I don't subscribe to any of the currently popular "ultimate truths", to be a pathetic and bigoted effort on your part, that is starting to show your manic need to be a control freak. I can only hope you were not able to talk someone into marrying you, as their life would, of necessity, end up being a living hell. You are a very sick puppy, get some help.

Littel - Dec 31,2009 thread: Group urging Obama to visit ailing Limbaugh you posted

“Obama should not visit the fat Nazi gas-bag. 2009 was a very bad year that could have only been improved if we woke up today to the newspaper headline, "Rush Limbaugh Dies, Goes to Hell".

Did you honestly think I didn't do some research before I made the claim? Unlike you I don’t make claims I can’t support. The only person damaging your character is you.

You really are a trip you see no problem making claims of vast right wing corporate fascist conspiracies without any proof and yet attack others for not having proof for their religious beliefs. Explain why your claims shouldn’t have the same standard applied to them. For you to talk about assassinating character is hypocritical since that’s all you done to me from the start because I’ve challenged you to back up your claims with actual evidence. Are you ever going to actually try backing up a claim or make an intelligent argument? Calling me names and belittling the average voter because he doesn’t support your radical agenda doesn’t lend any credibility or support to your claims.

The best thing you could do is move on and use your attack the person and ad absurdum strategy on someone else who might be intimidated by you or buy into that nonsense of conspiracies and takeovers you rant on and on about. Here’s another question for you to answer if you want to keep this going. Tell me how I am trying to silence you. By challenging you to back your radical claims, by pointing out you aren’t centrist; by pointing out pointing out that you aren’t the intellectual you claim? You are the one perpetuating a con and you can’t stand having someone else expose it for what it is.

rino - You are, of course, assuming that Rush Limbaugh is a Human being, a condition that he has been working very hard to dispel for several years. Rush Limbaugh is a bigoted, self-serving, ultra right-wing piece of (insert favorite term for fecal matter here). He is not someone I disagree with, he is the enemy of all that is good and just in the world and any misfortune that comes his way is small reward for the crimes he is committing against Humanity, that unfortunately, will not be carried out in the non-existent afterlife, that I also don't believe in, which was part of the tongue-in-cheek comment you quoted.

If you knew anything about the way power is manipulated within a society (which I believe you do and serve for your own selfish ends), then you know that any propaganda effort that calls for the free operation of a market system with limited government interference, that favors unlimited wealth accumulation in a very few hands, is by definition a conspiracy. Greed being what it is, not having enforced rules of behavior, or having such rules controlled by the very elites who benefit the most, always leads to corruption and in our case ,an entire system created to facilitate the flow of wealth to the top in an unnatural system that ignores the side affects of rampant resource extraction at the lowest cost in a world of shrinking finite resources, and as a result, a poisoned environment, a rigid class structure and control of the information system by these same forces, which includes forums like these where you dare not let the voice of reason catch hold.

The Corporate controlled Right-wing (which you completely support, despite your denials) does not care for the fate of the individual, it does not care about long term negative impacts their policies cause to the environment and the general heath of the population, nor do they give a rat's butt about addressing the problems they are causing be it personal, or in a societal nature. The government exists to be used by them to achieve their goals, or as a scape-goat when someone has to be blamed for the problems they themselves have caused. This phenomenon has been clearly illustrated by the events occurring during the periods of times when the corporate Right has been in power, stripping regulations, instituting legalized theft ( socialism for the rich tax cuts), utilizing the lives of the masses to carry out resource wars (in which their children never serve, or suffer), all to consolidate their power (wealth) and when the price has to be paid, the opposition is handed the trappings of government which is then painted as the cause of the mess corporate policies have caused. The current campaign by the owned minions of the Right (who don't even pretend they aren't owned anymore) is a clear example of the above mentioned mechanism of using the government as the fall-guy until they can again take it over, strip it of more regulatory power, and continue to pillage the economy unobstructed until a complete collapse occurs and the government can be done away with altogether.

The most necessary component to any manipulated and contrived system is a compliant and pliant mass of voters, who though they vote, have little knowledge, or inclination to gain the knowledge, about what is actually going on. You attack me for identifying them for what they are, which I can understand, because you need them to be clueless and easily manipulated by slogans that appeal to the general jingoistic patriotism that has been instilled by the corporate controlled educational system, and disinterested enough to have more empathy for who is going to win "American Idol' than who will be their chosen leaders. You condemn me for telling the truth, a truth you full well know to be the truth, but a truth that allows the Right to use the very people you pretend to represent, as you use them to continue the flow of wealth to the top, hoping no doubt to get your hands on a bit of it along the way, no matter whose pocket it has to be taken from. These people you pretend to empathize with as you use them, may very well fall for your feigned show of support, but their interests are better served by those who realize their shortcomings and who really support their best interests, despite their misdirected and easily distracted impatient need for simplicity in a complex world. You are as always a fraud and in the Karen Hughes mold at that.

rino - Go ahead, come back at me. The Republican Party just had itself exposed for everything I said it is, by the documents that fell into the hands of the media. If you try to stand on the myth that they give a damn about the middle, other than how they can be used, I'm ready for you, thanks to their own stupidity. What was obvious, has now been documented and I was right all along.

Littel – I’ll give you that you are right about Limbaugh being a bigoted, self-serving, ultra right-wing gas bag, your term I think. When did being that become a crime? The only thing he’s guilty of is pollution, every time he runs his mouth.

You are also correct that I am well aware of the theories of how power is manipulated. What you seem to ignore is that manipulation goes both ways. The left uses similar tactics to push it’s agenda playing on rears rather than issues. Many a Democrat including our current president was able to parlay dissatisfaction with the failures of the Bush administration to gain control no only of the White House but both Congressional Houses. While I would agree that there are those voters who are not as informed as they should be on issues there are also far to many who simply vote party line either Democrat or Republican. In the end none of this actually proves your claims of a The Corporate controlled Right-wing takeover. This same nonsense was spouted for most of Bush’s presidency as well and guess what the voters put the Democrats in power.

Free market with minimum government interference works. The key there is some regulation is required. Either expreme too much or too little regulation creates problems. Left unchecked corporations and the wealthy will put their interests first. That’s where government needs to step in and define boundaries for the good of the general citizenry. The government trying to redistribute or control wealth accumulation will not work. Socialism, communism or whatever you want to call it can only work in a situation where the state has absolute power and where it’s been tried it has failed. Capitalism is by no means perfect, but I’ve yet to see a better economic system. You sound like someone who has little or no experience working in management in the private sector. For your information I was against the Bush tax cuts and the Iraq war.

“These people you pretend to empathize with as you use them, may very well fall for your feigned show of support, but their interests are better served by those who realize their shortcomings and who really support their best interests, despite their misdirected and easily distracted impatient need for simplicity in a complex world”

It sounds like you think the ignorant masses would be better served by having the knowledgeable minority tell them what they need. That is the same logic used by people like Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Castro to name just a few. Sorry based on track record I’ll pass on that. What you appear to advocate is a Socialist controlled Left Wing dictatorship for the good of America.

As to your second post all that did is post the fact that the Republicans plan to use fear of Obama turning America socialist to their advantage. I can’t stand the strategy, but both parties have used similar tactics in the past. Democrats took control using similar tactics and you use them in your own arguments. At the end of the day both parties goals is to win elections and control the government. You simply choose to treat the side you disagree with as somehow evil.

rino - Limited government only benefits those who control the actual power. Why do you think they are fighting so hard to weaken the government? Is is the only threat that has the hope of helping the common man by limiting the rolling rape that would occur if corporations get the rest of the control in their hands.

Would the disinterested middle be in better hands if they were controlled by people who treat their own low end supporters as ignorant idiots that can easily be controlled with slogans and simple doctrine (see the new document), and who are robbing them blind, or would they rather be guided by the enlightened who continue to struggle for the rights they themselves don't seem willing to defend? If they were a little brighter, my job would be so much easier, I have to educate them, all you have to do is play to their fears. I have to win, you only have to not lose, which is always the case when the hard choice is the correct choice because easy and stupid is such a whore.

Great Rino and Robert-simply exhilarating discussion.

And I would say Left, Right, Center -- those false demarcations don't work in real life--for a person who favors government control of commerce can be a social conservative and be anti abortion as well as anti gay marriage, and a social liberal, quite to the left of center, who favors gay marriage and accessible abortion may be a fiscal conservative who desires less government intrusion in commerce.

But are the uber wealthy trying to take over America? Indeed, they are. Ever since Roman times, it has been bread and circus for the underclass and exclusivity and luxury for the upper class. To say that the wealthy simply belong to the Right would be to lie.

Look at Hollywood, the entertainment and celebrity ridden kingdom of the West. Most people who inhabit this illusory world are uber wealthy and a majority of them support Obama, government takeover of industry, government hand outs to the poor and social programs galore. Why, does the wealthy Left--and there is a wealthy Left--don't forget George Soros who hit the ground running with hedge funds galore that fetched him his dollars in billions--why does the wealthy Left want these social programs--for such programs keep the underdogs in underdog status for ever--obligated to government, minions voting with their stomachs instead of with their heads--for their daily bread, not for progress--and when the taxes are collected and redistributed in the form of social programs do the poor really benefit? Do they actually climb out of poverty?

And does the Left when in power rescind or repeal all the laws that benefit the rich? Does it take away all the favorite hideouts of the rich, abrogate all the tax shelters? No sir. I posit that the Right and the Left are one and the same when they are wealthy--that wealth creates a mentality indistinguishable in the Right and the Left. The idea is to prevent a revolt of the underclass. The Left throws them bread crumbs and the Right throws them circus--it is not true that the Right emaciates government to the point of disappearance--under Bush government actually grew--spending was the equivalent of runaway squandering--both the Left and the Right allow the uber wealthy to plunder with little control exerted on their thievery and knavery.

Banking reform is being considered in Congress right now. Do you think the Left is writing a bill with heft to throttle the bad boys of Wall Street? A hesitant and shy bill is being crafted and before it emerges from both houses of Congress it will be so watered down that you won't be able to smell the acid that was supposed to be in there to stay the hands of the Wall Street moguls.

Same with CEO pays--those guys who underperformed and drove their companies and investors into the ground but earned millions anyway, even Obama's pay Czar was hesitant to touch them.

And don't forget Joe the stupid Plumber, who emerged out of the wood works to humiliate Obama, he was one of the underclass, not a master plumber, not an anything, but gas bagged his way to fame by opposing all government control of business--he himself an underfed prisoner of the system--this is the type Robert speaks of--a gullible minion who supports the very Right that oppresses him and his kind.

Well, I think fantasy works wonders in America. While the wealthy from the Right, Left and the Center make money for generations to come, the poor gawk at them and eat up their celebrity stories because one day they think, one day soon, their sons or their daughters will be one of the wealthy class. Capitalism has a way of clouding the mind--even as the population grows and opportunities shrink, the poor keep dreaming wealth is possible in America without redistribution of wealth--many of them repudiate government interference or remediation through laws because they don't want their progeny to be so controlled, in case, just in case this progeny strikes it rich--winning the lottery always a possibility. And those poor who want things to be done for them, who find all the hard work and scheming capitalism requires enervating, sit on their butts and vote for those who will keep them propped up without having to work for the props.

Same all over the world folks--worse, much worse in South Asia--when the socialists take over a state in India, you can be absolutely sure that the government coffers will be plundered with generations to come among the powers that be, turning wealthy overnight, followed by the poor being kept mighty happy with bags of free rice, clothes and TV sets thrown in for good measure.

Right, Left, Center it does not matter --the purloiners are at the gates in all sorts of guises--they mesmerize the poor and the middle class with this thing called hope--the hope of becoming rich beyond dreams one day--nothing more intoxicating than that lie.
Ravensfan Anon

Ravensfan Anonymous - Wealth and Uber-wealth are two different things. A basketball player that gets a $130 million check may be said to be wealthy, but it is the guy who writes that check who is in the controlling "Uber-wealth" category. Anyone under that threshold is just a cheaply bought (for the most part) minion, who will defend the system that made them personally well off. They have been cheaply bought and paid for, are held out as the hope of the American dream and serve very little purpose outside that function, with just the promise of riches enough to keep the rest the masses invested in the con and feeding at the trough of improbabilities.

@ Annoymous:
I reproduce your last paragraph.
"Right, Left, Center it does not matter --the purloiners are at the gates in all sorts of guises--they mesmerize the poor and the middle class with this thing called hope--the hope of becoming rich beyond dreams one day--nothing more intoxicating than that lie.
Ravensfan Anon

Posted by: Anonymous | March 5, 2010 9:03 PM

Why do you sign off as Ravensfan Anon.

Who are you?

I notice someone replying to Anon and signing of Ravensfan. I reproduce:

Anon – I’m assuming you are referring to me. I don’t recall constantly saying anything about someone else engaging me or anyone else. I’m not the one complaining about people trying t silence or intrude on me. All I did was point out the truth that he and you do the exact same thing you complain about religion doing. Don’t confuse point out your tactics with whining. Like Robert you are a master of irrelevant conclusions. Maybe you should pass your suggestion about sobbing to your buddy Robert who thinks I’m somehow out to silence him from professing the truth.

Posted by: ravensfan | February 18, 2010 12:23 PM

Why are you two gentlemen hellbent on confusing members of these discussions. Please come clean and stop signing off as RAvensfan Anon. It does not make any bloody sense.

Littel - Spare me the corporate takeover nonsense. What you call educating voters is actually left wing propaganda to combat the equally stupid right wing propaganda. You still spout your nonsense as if it’s an established fact. The only problem is you have offered no credible proof. Wealth is wealth Littel that you even attempt to differentiate shows how completely asinine your position is. The disinterested middle is simply not interested in your left wing lunacy or the lunacy of the far rights. Since you can’t convince them you discount them. In the end you have no clue or no real solutions for the countries problems. Like your counter parts on the far right you shout out rhetoric under the delusion that you need to out shout the idiots on the other side. I’ve wasted enough tome on your. Come up with some logical, rational and reasonable solutions and we might have something to talk about. Otherwise I have no desire to continue to debate someone so far out of touch who only talks and doesn’t listen. Fortunately those like you are a minority and always will be.

rino - How stupid do you think the American public is? Evidently enough to buy your deception that you are anything but a right-wing operative, who NEVER offers any solutions, and who only posts when someone is telling the truth you do not want to be heard. NEVER do you refute the allegations , but instead launch into a denigrating attack meant to make the opponents of the corporate takeover of the country (that both you and I know is happening) appear to be living outside the realm of reality. You are a liar, a fraud and a loathsome excuse for what a citizen of this country should be. You are a tool and a fool, cheaply bought by the interests you serve and if anyone is to be dismissive of the others actions, then that person should be me.

concerned citizen - I don't know why I'm bothering to say this yet again. Ravensfan Anon and I are different individuals with very different views. He signs off as Ravensfan Anon because early on I got on him about posting without an id. He then decided to sign off as Ravensfan Anon because of that. We are not the same person. The only who appears to be confused is you. It's quite simple if you see Ravensfan shown as posted by then it's me. If you see Anonymous and the last line in the post says Ravensfan Anon it's him. I really don’t know why that seems to cause you so much confusion.

Thank you ravensfan for clearing this up.

Dear Annoymous, singing off as Ravensfan Anon:

You right such informative material and then confuse its source by singing off as Ravensfan Anon.

Why not use a simple name like "Sage" instead of ravensfan's name.
Thank you.

Catholics for the Common Ground is group that recieves money from pro-abortion people like George Soros and Warren Buffet. Don't think that is too pro-life.

Littel - I shouldn't bother responding since you’ve offered nothing new, but what the heck. Based on our exchanges you are the only who questions the intelligence of the public giving them far less credit because they don’t by your load of bilge. Exactly what solutions have you offered? Making paranoid unproven accusations of right wing corporate takeovers isn't offering anything truthful, useful or constructive. You have still yet to provide any credible evidence to even support your outlandish claims including the ones you've made about me. You have some serious emotional issues Littel get some help. Let me end with the same challenge I keep making and you keep ignoring prove what you say and we'll talk. Post some actual possible solutions instead of left wing paranoid BS and we'll talk. Otherwise save it for someone who is as far to the left as you if you can find anyone.

rino - As long as you consider the truth to be "paranoid left wing BS" then there is little point in trying to have a conversation with someone so incredibly clueless that they can ignore what is going on right under their nose. You will be a useful pawn in the new order that is taking over without a whimper from those who stand to lose the most. It is the the disinterested middle that will determine whether we become a fascist corporate state in a crumbling over-crowded world, or whether we start dealing with our problems in a rational caring way to reverse our slide to oblivion. Your side may win this struggle, but that would be the shame, for then, we all lose.

I love you Ravensfan--I totally adore you.

Robert, I understand what you are saying--the uber wealthy versus the merely wealthy, versus the rest. The uber wealthy have put a crimp on the gut of this country. They have no idea how the rest of us live, struggle or survive.

Supposedly one of the TV networks has a reality show wherein CEOs go undercover to observe their underlings only to discover the shocking abuse meted out to ordinary folks at their places of work. One CEO discovered that one of his minions was being judged on her productivity and would have been marked down if she had taken a bathroom break- she brought a cup to work and urinated in it, so her productivity score would remain respectable.

Those are the types of torture chambers in which workers toil and moil in America, all for a pittance, no job security, poor health care coverage, no assurance of retirement benefits and absolute misery their companions.

You are right Robert about the uber wealthy--many of them are the robber barons, the kleptocrats of the US but they come from all walks of life and from all persuasions. The uber wealthy also suffer from guilt about their uber wealthy status--look at Bill Gates, you could say he is from the left--he is an Obama supporter--he has given away a lot of his wealth to global projects--from Africa to India the man has been a philanthropist--ditto for Warren Buffet--an Obama supporter--or for that matter Oprah Winfrey--or the Gores--very wealthy--Democrats-- Obama supporters all--can we mark all the uber wealthy as coming from the Right when they seem to come from the left and the center too?

And how do you eliminate the influence of the uber wealthy? Do we simply tax them into impoverishment? Or tax them into oblivion? Or tax them until they spiral down into middle class status? And why are the poor, poor? Is it because the uber wealthy exploit them and keep them there? Is it because they lack incentive--although lacking incentive seems to be a big lie--because it is endlessly difficult these days to be upwardly mobile--instead of a having a mere class system, America seems to be evolving an entrenched caste system. A coal miner's son will shaft downward into the dark pits and an actor's son will find the contacts that will catapult him in Hollywood--ambition and talent are not adequate in today's America to get where one wants to go--contacts and pull are needed and the uber wealthy followed by the wealthy are buying their kids' a permanent place among the aristocracy and meritocracy.

I see why you are mad Robert--there are supreme examples of right wing corporate misdeeds and takeovers--the oil companies that made obscene profits and laughed all the way to the bank--bringing about a false oil shortage---they were Bush's pals, alright-- Halliburton, Bechtel, Kellogg Brown and Root and Blackwater, they too laughed all the way to the bank, the Pentagon's largess jingling in their pockets, the beneficiaries of the Iraq war.

But by the same token, GE a mammoth corporation, an Obama supporter, is offering loans to doctors who will buy its electronic medical records software--GE is going to make a killing on this one because it is ahead of other aspirants--it comes from the left, its maw wide open to gulp the market for this software in one fell swoop--to demolish the competition-- and it has the current government's support in this monopolistic venture.

And look at Goldman Sachs--saved by Obama and Co--many of its executives are in the current administration--it was too big to fail; in what can only be described as an ironic move it was saved by the left and even more ironic, it is now being pursued by the left for misdeeds--the embrace and the rejection have come at such dizzying speed that it is impossible to divine whether the left is for or against the big banks and bankers.

And the new health care plan of Obama is actually a fine bonanza for the insurance companies--30 million newly insured--they are smacking their lips for this-- mandatory insurance for all being actually essential to widen the pool of insured and keep cost down. Little by little though, the insurers have gotten what they wanted and these concessions have come from the left--the line between the left and the right has blurred and this is because many in Congress come from the uber wealthy class or if they don't they are willing to be bribed and bedecked by the uber wealthy.

Rino keeps asking what the solution is--even if there is a revolution the revolutionists will overthrow the uber wealthy, guillotine them and then and aim to be uber wealthy themselves. The problem Robert is this:everyone, even the poorest bastard in a hovel salivates over the possibility of becoming uber wealthy--like I told you--winning the lottery is a mania among the gamblers, many of these dice throwers actually being uber poor.

But we can't forget, many among the uber wealthy have not only shared their wealth through plenty of altruism, they have actually worked their butts off to get uber wealthy--Bill Gates is one of these, Warren Buffet has been an ingenious financial strategist, the owners of Google provide a casual and creative home for many young techies, make marvelous innovations and stay one step ahead of their competitors, Steve Jobs of Apple Computers has worked his butt off through his pancreatic endocrine cancer--a debilitating disease--of course the uber wealthy have access to superior health care-- Jobs continues to unveil brilliant applications for his i-phone and his i-pod has revolutionized the music world--giving tiny unknown groups and independent artistes a chance at the limelight--same with the social network inventors--the Face Book guys from Harvard keep reinventing their product to turn a profit--the modern millionaires come from the left, right and the center, Robert and we can't demonize all of them--several are environmentally and socially aware, started out as geeks made it with blood, sweat and tears and many support Obama.

The Right accuses the Left of a takeover and the Left does the same to the Right--question is what type of takeoevr would you prefer--not that such takeovers should be prevented or avoided--not that they are even avoidable--in fact these takeovers are always in the wings, they are cyclical and unavoidable.

I myself would puke if the Right triumphed totally--the social constriction from the Right, the moral superiority, the Biblical edicts, the jingoistic patriotism and the flag waving all drive me nuts--by the same token the Left's sanctimonious embrace of government as saint and solver of all problems, social, environmental and economic also seems non viable to me, because it grows our national debt enormously, and generates edicts a billion that are not enforceable.

Are you from the center Robert? I think you are left of center-- you want universal affordable health care for all, you want social justice, the promise of upward mobility for the poor and middle class and you are opposed to the concentration of wealth in a few hands, government supported and abetted, because you see such concentration as inimical to equal opportunity for a majority of Americans.

You are also right from this point of view Robert--while the line between the Right and the Left is blurring, the Left seems to think about the common man at least once in a while, about the environment more than once in a while and about health care as a possibility for all at least here and there. The Right seems comatose to all these matters of social justice and its morality seems tightly wound around "anti abortionism" and anti gay agendas. The Left on the other hand never seems to have any clear cut idea as to how it is going to pay for all of its grand ambitions. The Right sees the Left's fiscal arrogance or recklessness or whatever you want to call it as an Achilles heel to bloody, masticate and swallow. This is as it should be--push and pull---essentials of government--but the phenomenon is so polarizing and exaggerated these days, with the Glenn Becks, the Rush Limbaughs and the Keith Olbermanns, that gridlock chokes America.

The issue is quite complex and I want to know Rino--do you think we are in a bad way? If so why? And what do YOU think are solutions?

It is very obvious what Robert's solution would be (although you, Rino, seem not to see it) to eliminate the Right from the seats of power or if that is not possible to swat the Right down ruthlessly when it is in the minority in order that policies to address and rectify the follies of the uber wealthy and advance the cause of the increasingly trepidatious underclass may be promulgated.

You have something better on your mind Rino or are you satisfied to leave things as they are? Or are you just happy to go on giving Robert tit for tat--from exhilarating to execrable--to meaningless--that is where that argument seems to be headed.
Ravensfan Anon

Anonymous - I think we are in a bad way. Our economy is not recovering and spending money we don't have isn't going to provide any long term fix. Too many times we launch legislation where revenue or savings is over estimated and cost under estimated. I also want to see health care reformed to provide affordable quality coverage for all who want it. We are stuck in two wars that I don’t think we can win both courtesy of George Bush. I don't see it as the governments job to redistribute wealth rather to level the playing field so that no one has an unfair advantage or isn't able to use wealth to deny opportunities to others. I never claimed to have all the solutions. To get them we need to check egos, abusive personal attacks, irrelevant conclusions at the door and start with what we can agree on and move from there. Littel seems to be of the opinion that his way is the only way and anyone opposed or even questioning it is on the side of what he calls the “uber” rich and corporations. I view him and all extremist as part of the problem shouting out and keeping any serious discussions about how to deal with the problems and challenges we face from happening. He is no where near the center. I know people slightly to the left of center and we manage to agree on some things and not on others. One thing we don't do is get into the sort of abusive personal attacks and other vitriol that Littel spews. Unless Littel manages to actually say something intelligent or support some of his claims I have no intention of keeping it going. I believe Einstein said “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”. I have no expectation that continuing exchange with Littel will produce anything different or useful.

rino - We have already reached the point where the corporate interests have seized , not only half of ALL the wealth in the country, but have secured also the mechanisms necessary to maintain control over this "favorable to the few" system that has given so much to so few, while making sure that the majority are excluded from the "American Dream" altogether. The century+ propaganda war has been carried out so that the average citizen has values and perceptions that they defend to the death, that have no connection to what is really going on. We are mere pawns in a Ponzi scheme that is being run to benefit a power structure that is looking out for its own narrow interests because dealing with reality and taking care of all our mounting problems is not cost effective FOR THEM.

Our entire political discourse is nothing but political theater, meant to entertain at best, or bore the hell out of the masses, so that they will not take an active interest in who and how they are being screwed to serve the rich, and when their curiosity is stirred, they can easily be convinced the fault and blame is the nebulous "them", the poor, the left, socialists, or any other boogeyman they can come up with that takes the blame off of them. The muddiest part of this political pond is the great middle, where no one takes a stand, no one questions authority and the enemy is anyone who rocks the boat. This is exactly what the "Uber-wealth" ruling class wants, because it is the easiest situation to control, and in as much as they already own the media, the educational system (look who controls textbook production) and they have made allies out of the most dogmatic and intransigent institutions in our society by playing to their unquestioning patrio-jingoism and their basic fears.

You are arguing for keeping the discussion (nationally) at a level that does not foster the change we are going to need if we are going to fix the broken (from the viewpoint of the masses) system that is nothing but an uncaring money funnel to the very top. You are arguing for a status quo that can no longer be fixed by compromising with the dealer that is holding all the cards. There is no middle ground left, it has all been cheaply bought and now serves (ignorantly) the wishes and the will of those who don't give a rat's butt about anything but themselves. This is what you are trying to sell us and I think you may even be ignorant of how cheaply you have been purchased to do it.

Little – I debated if I even wanted to bother responding since you really offer nothing new or any substantial credible evidence to support your extreme liberal views. I decided to do it one more time. It’s apparent that you are so far to the left you have no idea of what reality is. You have nothing to support your claims you make so passionately. You also seem to be out of touch with the reality that your views represent the small minority on the extreme left. That entire post was nothing but left wing propaganda which has been screamed to counteract the right wing conservatives who want to keep the status quo. You have yet to provide any credible support other than concentration of wealth which you use to draw hasty generalizations. Even if what you said were even close to true you offer no real solutions to change the very things you rail on and on about. It sounds good I’m sure at left wing gatherings but means nothing in the real world. If I had to guess you probably have little real experience in the business world and little practical economic experience outside of reading liberal theories. You discount true centrists as either uninformed, ignorant or manipulated by your fantasy of the "Uber-wealth" ruling class. In the end you have no proof to support your views, no practical workable ideas for change, despise the 80% of the population not on the extreme left and the 10% over on the far right. You are part of the reason nothing gets done in this country. You are one of the all or nothing extremists. Hopefully the majority not on either end will realize that it’s the extremist on both ends that keep meaningful change from happening and you and those like you will be reduced to the insignificant background noise you actually represent.

rino - You are a shill for the corporatist right, that is hell bent on maintaining a status quo that is running this country into the ground, while the richest elements get what they can, while the getting is good. You do not give a damn about the middle, who are being dropped from their health care, denied when they get sick, bankrupted when they become desperately ill, fight the resource wars, do all the work and then, because they have little time to figure out how badly your side is screwing them to the wall, they opt for the simplistic lies your side is telling them as you dig your greedy hands deeper into their pockets. You are a lying pig, and if I had to bet, I would bet you are being paid to do just what you are doing because I don't know how anyone could be stupid enough to sell their soul for free.

Littel - Nothing new same propaganda and bilge you've been spewing. Still waiting for you idea on how you would fix things as well. All you seem to be capabale of doing is screaming the sky is falling like chicken little or maybe chicken littel would be more appropriate. Instead of calling me names why don't you try proving what you say is true. If you could do that I'd agree with you.

rino - We are way out beyond where anyone is still reading and I know you won't get paid if I keep responding, so my only option at this point is to deny you collecting your pay. You are a Rightist shill who is here just for the purpose of shutting down those exposing the ongoing con being carried out against the American people and any more Karen Hughes type blathering, like your last post, will be dismissed for what it is, just an attempt to fool the easily fooled to surrender what's left of our freedom to the corporatists you serve.

Littel - I noticed that other than lie and insult me you didn't bother to either prove your assertions or offer what you would do to fix those problems. I think your response says all that needs to be said about you and your views.

rino - GFYS

Littel - Like I said before your post says it all about you and your ability to make a intelligent, rational, logical arguement.

rino - I've noticed that you make no stand at all except to oppose those who speak out against the corporatist con being waged against us all, by pretending to represent a middle ground that is nothing but fertilized ground for the infection you are trying to spread. To state that I prove nothing I say, is a convenient tactic, but it is a lie. In all my posts over the last few months, I've made the case for what is happening, have shown who the victims are, who is benefiting from the current corrupted system and why it is happening. That you would dismiss the body of evidence that has been poured out in the recent health care debate, in favor of a status quo that is killing people, all to funnel wealth to the top, is a measure of your corrupt nature and I have no use whatever for people who try to manipulate the discussion to favor a system that is murdering people for profit. GFYS.

Littel - Read my response to Anonymous I outline some of my stand there. If you are going to lie at least be smart enough to do some elementary research. As for health care the system needs to be fixed. Somehow I doubt any idea you have could be the answer. I'v read a lot of your posts and it's the same tired lunacy over and over. You cry about the uber rich as you call them and corporations and corruption offering no proof or potential solutions. Your constant use of personal attacks pretty much shows you can't handle someone who is prepared to question your far left rhetoric and ask you to back it with something. I find it quite hypocritical that you demand others to prove God to you yet feel your delusions of the uber wealthy corporate takeover doesn’t require the same level of proof. Face it son you’re an extremist spreading nonsense you can’t support and that’s why you resort to childish name calling and lying about me.

rino - Reread my last statement and then go jump off a cliff.

Littel - Why I read it the first time has something magically changed since then?

Littel - Instead of continuing to engage this excercise in futility, neither of us is getting anywhere, lets try and refocus and be a bit more constructive.

Read this

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/19/opinion/19brooks.html?src=me&ref=general

I'd be curious on your thoughts on it

Mr. Brooks, at times, can issue forth with some interesting ideas and some of them do, from time to time, make a lot of sense, but he does ultimately represent that segment that has been able to accumulate 1/2 of all the wealth. This segment has little interest in remaking society in the manner he proposes, because this group at the top is disinclined to let go of what they have been able to purloin. As long as society is structured to funnel money to the top, and as long as the government can be counted on to facilitate this flow (or stay out of the way), and hang around to take the blame when things get out of control, the mass of our citizens are going to have to settle for hind teat., dysfunctional government, and the use of the individual to make a few lucky/crooked/born to wealth individuals even richer. He argues for the reestablishment of an idealized and simplistic status quo, and all the values that allowed the disproportionate distribution of wealth to occur in the first place.. Arguing for meeting on common ground at the center, is of little value when the center is already under muddy water.