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December 7, 2009

Report: Obamas balked at WH Nativity scene

The widely circulated e-mail claiming that the Obama White House was putting up a "holiday tree," bereft of religiously themed ornaments, in place of the traditional Christmas tree has been roundly debunked (see and, the latter of which includes video of First Lady Michelle Obama taking delivery of a clearly labeled "White House Christmas Tree 2009").

But a New York Times profile of Desirée Rogers, the currently embattled White House social secretary, suggests there was at least some discussion about backing away from Christmas tradition this year -- not as it involved the tree, but a Nativity scene.

When former social secretaries gave a luncheon to welcome Ms. Rogers earlier this year, one participant said, she surprised them by suggesting the Obamas were planning a “non-religious Christmas” — hardly a surprising idea for an administration making a special effort to reach out to other faiths.

The lunch conversation inevitably turned to whether the White House would display its crèche, customarily placed in a prominent spot in the East Room. Ms. Rogers, this participant said, replied that the Obamas did not intend to put the manger scene on display — a remark that drew an audible gasp from the tight-knit social secretary sisterhood. (A White House official confirmed that there had been internal discussions about making Christmas more inclusive and whether to display the crèche.)

Yet in the end, tradition won out; the executive mansion is now decorated for the Christmas holiday, and the crèche is in its usual East Room spot.

Posted by Matthew Hay Brown at 3:54 PM | | Comments (128)
Categories: Christianity, Church and State, Holidays, People, Politics


Lord, aren't the Obamas boring? Can't stand to be upstaged by a Mother and child!

One year down, three to go. What a mistake I made voting for Comrade Zero and his merry band of pickpockets.

This post is misleading. It seems to suggest the Obama WH did not display the manger, when in fact, at least according to the article; while they may have "balked" initially, they eventually caved and displayed it anyway.

They should have kept balking. Mythology and superstition have no place in government. Whatever happened to separation of church and state?

zelmn, the manger is America. You are a threat to my country.


I have little belief in Obama's real beliefs. When he says :God Bless America", I am wondering if he really means it.

Joseph J Wagner

I'm becoming really bored with people who don't know the difference between "Church and State" and "Faith and State". The Church and State understanding came to existence because of a Pastor. His intent was to keep any singular denomination of Christianity from becoming Established (in the formal sense) politically . It was never, EVER intended to keep a President or governmental office from expressing a publicly held belief.

There shouldn't be a manger in the White House just like there shouldn't be a pentagram and goats head in the White House. How about a Scientology display too? Keep religion of the White House please, it belongs to the people, not any one religion. If these people want to see a manger let them go to church.

Well it seems like Obama did the right thing in the end, he usually does.

KansasGirl it is American talibani like you that are the real threat to America. Keep it in your church. Not everyone believes in your invisible Sky Daddy

It is so tiring to hear the same thing every year. The separation of church and state does not mean people are not free to express their faith. It has become PC to bend to the wishes of the few, but think of it. The rest of us are denied our freedom of expression to please the few who cannot tolerate our freedom. They have theirs, give us ours. No one has to look at anything they don't want to look at.

David!! It's about time people realize the true meaning of the separation between church and state referring the the "Establishment of Church"!!!

Your statement that tradition won out is somewhat misleading. What won out is the fact that America is around 75% Christian. I would suggest that those people who have any problem with the religious aspect of Christmas not exchange gifts with their atheistic friends.

When America rejects Christ from Christmas, we'll have a lot more than the economy and health care to worry about.

Thank God they had the sense to include the traditional creche, without that Christmas would never have exisited in the first place. It is about the birth of Jesus and not all the secular items that are being brought out as "holiday decorations"

Really sad! Afterall, Jesus is the Reason for the Season. No Season. . .no Christmas!

It is sad that the strength of christianity is somehow measured by politics. The Christian church was at its strongest when Rome was persecuting it. We would be wise to let the heathen take care of gov. and focus more on loving our fellow man.

Where were all you "separation of church and state" people when Obama discussed at length of the Muslim religion, when he hosted a day of prayer for Muslim's and he denied our founding fathers only to turn around and imply that we are "more of a Muslim Nation"? No problems there huh.???? Rhetorical question-not interested in any of your corrupt replies.

I never fail to be distressed by the superb lack of logic of so many people. This country was founded by men who invoked (and without any embarassment) the Name of Christ; and Christmas is -- after all -- the celebration of Christ's Birth.

It's like continuing to celebrate someone's birthday while insisting that everyone receive presents except the person whose birthday it is, and -- in fact -- to tell that person we prefer He doesn't show up for the celebration. What kind of crass stupidity would that be?...preferring that the person for whom the celebration exists to begin with, fade away into oblivion and be excluded.

It's all rather a complete disconnect from history and reality, and the height of boorishness.

To all the liberal numbskulls and other crackers on this blog: The nativity scene is NOT ABOUT CHURCH - it is about the birth of Christ documented in the bible, period ! You can resent it and butcher it up all you want, it doesn't change a damn thing ! This is the SAME Jesus who died FOR ALL OF YOU ON THE CROSS so that your a--ses are saved.

Does it really matter if the white house puts a manger scene or a pagan related so called "christmas tree" or not? its all hypocrisy anyways..all theory,no action..just like Obama..but seriously have you ever considered why we even have "christmas trees"??? are they relevant to the life of CHRIST?? NO! just like half of he church's tradition is not one bit relevant to Yeshua..wait ..who is JESUS? i thought he was Isa or Yeshua..ITS SMELLIN FISHy in modern babylon....

This is for you don't believe in the "big Daddy in the sky"? When you deny God, HE will also deny YOU.

The poor Obama's. They couldnt put up a holiday tribute to Muslims and their causes. I suppose they figured it would be too disrespectful to those American troops who have died in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Merry Christmas to all religions. Muslim, Jewish, non-believers, buddhists,

You are all loved and saved because of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Or Not if you so choose

I'm having a bit of trouble trying to find the part in the bible where it says Jesus was born on December 25th -or for that matter, where he exhorts his followers to lose their marbles when confronted with ideas that challenges their beliefs.
Could anyone point to where "God" is in the Constitution or where in the Constitution it states that the executive branch must display a Manger?

Thanks for your help!

I believe in GOD i don't believe in obama

The part in the bible where it says Jesus was born on Dec 25 is right next to the part where rocks are carbon dated with such amazing accuracy.

The word God is not in the Constitution nor is there a mention of the manger. There also is no mention of a White House, a department of Energy, the Federal Reserve, the EPA, etc.

Common sense indeed is no longer common. Traditional piety is just as valid as self worship. I like the former, you prefer the latter.

In Christ, Fr. Kloster

"she surprised them by suggesting the Obamas were planning a “non-religious Christmas” — hardly a surprising idea for an administration making a special effort to reach out to other faiths."

This is the kind of babble the elitist mental manipulation of modern morality and their watered down version of Christianity tries to feed us as open minded compassion.
When in reality it is an overt attempt to downgrade and devalue Christian traditional values and it's monumental contributions to mankind.

No where in the Bible does it say that Jesus was born on December 25.

I like Christmas because that's when the atheists go into spasms, and all kinds of contortions. Maybe some day atheists will learn to live with all peoples despite their beliefs or disbeliefs.

It atheists think they created themselves, let them think that way. If atheists believe that matter is eternal, let them believe that way. If atheists believe that there isn't a First Cause called God, let them believe that way. But why do atheists have to go into contortions and spasms and begin to ridicule because people with a brain believe that there is a First Cause called God?

Zelmn and "Phil" should be subjected to the old Grcian penalty of Ostracism! Get the hell out of my country, commie rats!!

You can take CHRISTmas out of the White House, but you can never take CHRISTmas out of the Hearts of those who BELIEVE.
MERRY CHRISTmas everyone and GOD bless us ALL.

BRAVO Father K.

There is no law that the White House must display a manger. It is up to the president to decide what he displays in the White House while he is in office.

However, a president who claims to be Christian ought to act like one. For that matter people who claim to celebrate Christmas should embrace what they're celebrating. To do otherwise is hypocritical.

There may not be a law stating that the White House must display a manger. It may not state in the Bible that Jesus was born on December 25. God may not be mentioned in the Constitution. You may not believe in God.

But as most of the country is Christian and most, if not all, presidents before the one who presides at the moment were Christian, it would be wise for the current POTUS to display the manger.

We celebrate everyone's birthday every year. Why not Jesus'? December 25 is the date that's been designated as the day we celebrate Jesus' birthday. On March 25 (at least in the Catholic church), we celebrate the day Jesus was conceived. Do the math.

As I've already stated, most, if not all, previous presidents were Christian. Christians believe in God. Whether it's in our Constitution or not, this country was founded on the belief that God exists and is a part of our lives.

If you don't believe in God, check out laminin on Wikipedia. If nothing else, it will cause you to think.

My religious beliefs are mine, and if "I" choose to show them to others, I can. As for the president, he can decided what he wants to publicly display.

In this day and time it is not suprising that the "world" is cutting Jesus' birth out of the public eye, but as for me and my house, we will serve our Lord.

JanP. - Get your head out of your butt. You're actually a bigger idiot tha Obama.

I'm so sick of the liberal bull - get a life already and face the facts - America is a Christian nation....

Reverend Father Donald Kloster,

Thank you and have a Merry, Merry, Christmas. This is how We will overcome!

"Separation of church and state" as it is so often interpreted today was originally meant to prevent any denomination or religion from becoming the ESTABLISHED government religion for the nation. It was never intended to be used as it is today and certainly wasn't meant to prevent our government heads from expressing or honoring his/her own personal religious beliefs. Our Founding Fathers certainly did not refrain from expressing their own personal faith in God in their writings, speeches, etc. And I do believe that the phrase "separation of church and state" is not found in our Constitution (for what its worth these days) or the Bill of Rights.

whats the big deal muslims always balk at christmas?

Thanks Barb. People who criticize Christians and our beliefs are by far in the minority which they can't stand so they just stand up and holler (or type) "Look At Me..I want to be important " and the only way they can feel important or even have people notice them at all is to do exactly what they are doing which is to stand up and holler (or type) some more. Otherwise, NADA.

This shouldn't be surprising. He is the most un-American prez. ever. Shameful.

Obama is not a Christian. This is only more proof. Zelmn, America will not recover from the leftist disease that currently afflicts until we are rid of infections like you.

I really hate it that the Obama's decided to have a Christmas tree. Since they don't believe why not have an evolution scene like maybe a Karl Marx image. That would be more approiate for them.

A very, very Merry Christmas to one and all.

"Our Founding Fathers certainly did not refrain from expressing their own personal faith in God in their writings, speeches, etc.

Correct you are!

"Every man ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience." - George Washington

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god." - Thomas Jefferson

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."
-James Madison

"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

Treaty of Tripoli June 7, 1797


That is a guarantee!!!!!!!!!!!!


He will not be in office in 3 years.

I always smile to myself when Obama yet again proves by his words and actions that he is a liar,and that he hoodwinked the American people into believing he was a Christian..The biggest group to fall for the lie were Christians themselves,without whose vote Obama would not have been elected,and he knew it..Thats why this muslim posed as a Christian to get into power..Compare his glowing and passionate speeches about Islam, to his tepid,and derogatory statements about Christianity..The man despises the Christian faith,and it shows in his non participation in the Christian festivals,WH National Day of Prayer,his regular non attendance at ANY church by him and his family,his first act as POTUS was signing the born alive Abortion Law(something a REAL Christian would never do), and many other telltale signs that are a dead giveaway that he's no Christian..I think America is waking up that they have an Islamist in the Oval Office

The Constitution states there will be no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ; It is the first amendment. There is not one word that states separation between church and state.

Thank you Lord for your Son and Mr Obama, Merry Christmas

Sorry flowergirl, I am a proud athiest and don't believe in god, winged angels, demons, heaven or hell. I don't believe in faeries, leprechauns or the tooth fairy either. So your silly incantations and metaphysical threats mean nothing to me.

If you want to believe in superstition that's fine, just keep it away from me and my children. Hopefully one day you will realize, that the sooner you take responsibility for your own life and destiny, and stop looking to ghosts and imaginary friends for divine intervention, the better off you'll be.

LOL, All the people claiming that the Constitution was founded on Christianity need a little history lesson it seems. Not that you xians were ever influenced by facts or anything. But FWIW, the founding fathers were Deists, not Christians, this is pretty common knowledge. Deism was quite popular in the 17th and 18th century.

Ever heard of the 'Jefferson Bible'? Authored my Thomas Jefferson? From the wiki entry:

"The Jefferson Bible begins with an account of Jesus’s birth without references to angels, genealogy, or prophecy. Miracles, references to the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus, and Jesus' resurrection are also absent from the Jefferson Bible."

As one commenter noted:

"Jefferson's recasting of the four Gospels of the New Testament…was an interesting (or not) bit of play intellectualism. Many claim his "translation" amounts to little more than a paraphrasing of the parts of the Bible with which he agreed...He decided that the rules of the club to which he wished to belong were not the rules he wanted to play by. So instead of changing clubs, he changed the rule book by literally cutting and pasting together only the sections that he found relevant to his interpretation."

Customized bibles? Is that the way christianity works? Just copy and paste whatever parts of the bible you like, discard what you don't, then make up the rest and use it your own personalized bible? Something tells me Sarah Palin wouldn't approve LOL. Sounds cool though. If that's what christianity is maybe I need to convert. Not!

I just wanted to say that I'm glad to hear that Barack and Michelle did the right thing, while trying to be fair to all. Good call Mr President and Merry Christmas!

Praised be Jesus and Mary!
Now and forever! Amen


Sounds like you are threatening the POTUS. I've forwarded your comment (among others) to the Secret Service and the FBI, I encourage others to do the same. Every post logs an IP address, it makes it very easy to track down traitors like you.

Believe me, the Secret Service cant wait for him to get out of office along with the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard and the Odd Fellows. Thanks.

I am a christian and love GOD THE FATHER. the purpose of the birth of Christ was and still is for Him to be born of a virgin and DIE FOR OUR SINS. so if he hadn't die there would not be any for giviness of our sins so the most important part was his death which washed away our sins. if you want to no the truth Easter is the most inportant Holiday where he was bureid and rasied on the third day . his blood washed awayed our sins.

Wow, all these comments are really what makes america , america! People who disagree can express themselves freely without the Gestapo knocking there doors down. You know my issue with the comments is really only with my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who commented negatively about Mr. Obama or other commentors. Just remember Our Lord left us with 2 commandments. (paraphrasing, sorry Ms. West) Serve no other God's and Love your neighbor as yourself! This is the fulfillment of the Law.
God have compasssion on whom you have compassion and mercy on whom you have mercy in Jesus Name!

What part of the bible mentions Santa Claus? Haaaa?

Don't kid yourself Que. If you read the comments in this thread it's obvious that if the Christian Taliban had their way, they'd deport and/or execute any non-believing heathen who had a problem with their narrow viewpoints. Just like Iran. The irony is they call themselves "Americans". Shameful.

Doesn't matter; They're damned if they do and they're damned if they don't.


Those who voted for Obama are only reaping what they sowed a year...


Shame some folks can only see what they hope for.. Not facts...

Folks, Isn't it,"MAY God Bless America"?.. At this point in time God IS our only way out of this..mess...

According to recent statistics, 93% of the American people participate in CHRISTMAS. This is true whether they accept the Biblical account of the Birth of Christ or just like to give/ receive presents.

Christians designated this season to celebrate the birth of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Christian traditions prevail in the US because America was founded by Christian people (Puritans, Pilgrims, etc.).

It is due to Christianity that people of other religions have been welcomed into this country. Therefore, it would be good if persons of other religions could accept what American has offered them: Freedom Of Religion -- Not Freedom From Religion.

Since the huge majority of Americans celebrate Christmas, there is no reason for anyone to shy away from saying "Merry Christmas" to strangers on the street, as as has been done for centuries.

There is very good reason for our government entities to acknowledge the religion upon which America was founded. For those who choose not to participate with our "REASON FOR THE SEASON", it is not required.

Hanukka is a minor Jewish celebration whose customs might include the giving of small gifts. But many Jews have adopted the tradition of presents so as to have something to celebrate along with the rest of us.

Kwanzaa was invented in the 1960s in an effort by a con man to deter Blacks from celebrating Christmas. When it was realized that they prefer to celebrate in the "old-fashioned" way, the idea was adapted to stress African cultural ties -- after Christmas. No Problem!

Most of us don't worry if people of other faiths want to participate in their customary rituals - as long as they are safe. We worry only when Christians are expected to deny our own faith.

zelm, find out what the context of separation of church and state is in all of the references, and find out what the Supreme Court has said about it before you say silly things.

Hey, secret svc: Obama won't be in office in three years. Pass my post on to the Secret Service, please.

You fool.

Unless this is some kind of a spoof, not too understandable.

[come and get me, Janet and Rahm]

Hey RG,
You sound like the gestapo. Heard of the 1st amendment?

The aformentioned "Treaty of Tripoli June 7, 1797" quote is not to be confused with the Constitution. It was a treaty with another country containing some questionable translations in Article 11. So yeah.

J.T., you will believe in hell at judgement time.

Gee Klaus, aren't you juvenile.

Someone please explan to this poor old country boy how the statements 'reach out to others' and 'make the holiday more inclusive' work. It makes no sense at all to exclude those who believe in Christ and the traditions practiced in observing His birth just to make those who don't believe in Christ feel more included in celebrating His birth.

Hello secret svc please do looks to me that their trying to hurry it up too because they are just letting anybody walk in off the street come into the white house and get close to the president. you moroon.

secret svc= idiot!!!!!

How sensitive are these believers whose religious conviction is contingent upon public displays of faith?

Before they get all righteous about people wishing them "Merry Christmas" they might pause to realize that those well wishes might be coming from an atheist who nevertheless continues to embrace the seasonal trappings of their Christian upbrining, including that traditional greeting.

Christmas isn't just for Christians any more!

I think the arrival of Obama is a wake up call for Christians (Obama's description of his "faith" does not truly quality as Christian). For too long we've taken our majority status and the fact that this country was founded on a Judaeo-Christian foundation for granted.

People like Obama can only be elected if there are enough people to vote for them. Someone with Obama's views/beliefs would *never* have been elected even a couple of decades ago. We Christians are failing to pass our faith on to the next generation, failing to effectively spread the "Good News" to non-believers.

On the whole, those who self-identify as "Christian" in polls are contracepting and aborting their future at similar rates to non-believers. The future belongs to the fertile, not the sterile - a simple, inconvenient fact of nature. And the number of true, practicing Christians is far lower than the nominal number cited in the media.

We are losing ground, brothers and sisters. And we are reaping the results of our collective complacency.

In a Democracy, you get what you "deserve." No one forced Obama upon the country. Unless the tide of ambivalence and practical apostasy changes (and soon), we are in for far worse than Barry Obama.

Lord, have mercy.

But all things are possible with God. There is no room for despair in the heart of those with an Easter faith!

time for the current occupants of the WH to move on------------

Hey Paul George washington and was a big christian and prayed every chance he got. He also believed you must belive in someform of god or you could not be trusted. I wonder if these athiest are taking the holidays off ummmmmm its ok to use it to get presents and take time off to see family but not to call it what it is, remmebering the baby who would take the sins of the world away. Its sad a few that speak louder than the many get all the press. Obama is decieving and is not a christian at all. "you will know a tree by its fruit"

Don't care what anyone says the bible says that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that JESUS CHRIST is LORD. So coming very soon Obama and all the rest of the unbelievers will have to stand before God and give an account and be judged. The bible truly says that there is only one way to GOD. And its not allah,buddah,muhammad or any of this scientology junk. One day every eye will see. Can't wait.Its coming fast. just keep watching Isreal and Russia.

JOE: You are a delusional nut. get help, seriously

This is what happens when you offend adherents of the "official" religion of the USA: Dogmatic Atheism.

Unfortunately, the above-mentioned are also byproducts of our top-notch public education camps and are unable to define the difference between mythology and history.

Sara I respect your comment because everyone has a right to their opinion. I just pray if you are not a believer I pray that you get saved before JESUS'S return. Because we can tell by all the signs of the times that are taking place that it will be in our generation. This is called the Rapture if you did not know. Just read your bible. And keep a watch on Isreal and Russia it speaks of this in the bible. The stage has already been set. Everything has already been fulfilled for his coming.

You see you can look for example at our economy. The bible tells us that it will not get any better, but will get worse. And eventually we will go to a single monatary system alot of people teach it is the euro. Also Sara keep a watch on the middle east. You might need to read your bible more if you have one. Again Everything that is happening today is setting the stage for the rapture and the 7 year of tribulation that will be on this world. Sara just to let you know that if you dont make it in the rapture don't take the mark of the beast. You can still make it into heaven. It will be difficult much more than it is now. Because you can not buy or sell if you dont have the mark of the beast. I pray that you give your heart to JESUS and know that he died for your sins.

I also pray that Obama accepts Jesus
Christ as his personal savior. I would love to see him saved and go to heaven too. You see we need to repent and turn from our wicked ways while we still have time. There is coming a time that we will not be able to. I wished everyone man could see this. We need to see that all these religions do not lead to heaven. The bible clearly states that no man cometh to the father except by me. John 3:16 says that For God So loved the World that he gave his only begotton son that whosoever believeth on him shall not parish but have everlasting life.

I believe the above referenced report states that Laura Bush is the one who came up with idea to remove Christainity from WH at Christmas, not the current residents. I think you are just looking for road kill in this administration. But I do concur that this is a Christian nation.

You are all suckers to believe in me! Bwahahaha!

A question for the theists: how many dinosaurs did Noah put on his ark? Sarah Palin and Mike Huckabee tell me Jesus rode dinosaurs around like horsies.

Because, you know, Adam and Eve were here first and the earth is only 6000 years old lol

Who the hell cares what's in the front yard of the White House? It's votes that have always mattered to the occupants. Give the Christians what they want--a nativity scene, the Muslims what they want, a good word for the Prophet and a quote from the Koran, the Hindus what they suck up to, a bowing from the waist hands clasped and lighting of the Diwali lamp, let the Buddhists place a mandala on the White House veranda and let the Jewish children come play with their dradles in the Oval Office or light a minorah at a White House window--then laugh all the way back to the White House, enough votes in hand from the fools who believe in the tooth fairy called "god"--such are the ways of politicians. The Obamas are politically correct fools. Bush and Cheney were better at the game. Bible in hand and knavery at heart, they knew how to keep the Christian religious menagerie penned and pleased they were being ruled by two of their own.
Ravensfan Anon

These are truley exciting times for christians. Keep working and looking up for it says that at a time unknown to man the Son of MAN Shall appear in the clouds at a time you think not LUKE 12:40. Be ready. Just keep watching the middle east intresting things are happening that are exciting because we are so close for his coming. It will happen in our generation, you can feel it in the atmosphere.

So president Obama believes the way to have an "inclusive""HOLIDAY" celebration is to exclude all symbols of Christmas. Perhaps he should consider eliminating December 25th's national holiday status. Happy Winter Solstice.

You are on the verge of a mental collapse--life ain't going too well for you pal? You seem to be hung up on the apocalypse and your calypso swan song about the lord isn't the same type of witnessing to which Clay is prone is it?--It looks like you are having some petit mal seizures--"laugh" you will say, "when the lord comes I will have the last laugh"--don't do it even if you are tempted--say something different--like the "the lord spoke to me and asked me take some strong meds to calm my delirium down!"
Ravensfan Anon

Anonymous just read your bible if you are a believer you can not deny it. If you are not a believer then I'll pray for you too.One day everyman will see including you and will have to stand before God alone and give an account of what he has done. Then if you name is not written into the Lamb's Book OF Life Jesus will say depart from me I never Knew you and you will be cast into the lake of fire. It is coming. and we can not stop it. I pray that you find salvation before this takes place. Find a good church to get involved in. Because what is really going to be sad once the Rapture of the church takes place People are going to be running to the churches but it will be too late. The churches will be packed then. But Praise God I'm not going to be here tom see that.

I am no where near as articulate as you folks, wow! I love these posts. I'm drinking my morning coffee cracking up! thank you for your insight and perspectives.
I have to AGREE with all the intelligent minded Christian writers here. I feel as if the Obamas being elected into office was just a teaser for what's possible....Ie: woman president one day, black, asian, whatever...I know they are not the best, they were just the first (lucky them enjoy it won't last 3 years).


Joe - You make the perfect argument for not allowing two Christians to operate as pilot and co-pilot on commercial air flights, because if your rapture occurred mid flight, all us heathens back in coach would die in the resulting crash, possibly killing many on the ground as well. There are many other areas that need attention too. We wouldn't want an entire crew at a nuclear power plant to disappear all at once either and no telling how many would die if a surgeon and the doctor assisting disappeared as well, right in the middle of a delicate procedure on say, a wrong type of Christian, or a Jew. We better pass some rapture exclusion acts right away to protect those left behind. Maybe we should mandate that Hindus, Muslims, Jews and Atheists are the only people who can drive buses and big rig trucks, hell, maybe Christians shouldn't drive anything at all, just to be on the safe side.

Might i suggest that Jesus may be less concerned with idolatrous portayals of himself in the white house than things like....oh i don't know...war starvation torture pedophile priests in his church....just guessing

Maybe the two gate crashers got into the White House because they were Hindu. Someone thought that it was politically correct and therefore they must have been invited.

Christmas started out as a pagan holiday, celebrating the Winter Solstice. The Romans Christianized it because it was easier to do that than try to stop people from celebrating it. I really don't care how people celebrate it or what decorations they put up. Let's talk about something that really matters.

Yes Amy. Instead of being concerned about decorations, what really matters is having Christ in your heart. Where would you go if you died now? That is what matters. We spend a tiny bit of time here on earth and eternity afterwards. Thanks.

Robert Littel you are right about a pilot and co pilot and people on the ground. The bible tell us that two will be working in the field or as you say will be flying an airplane and one or more christians on the plane will go in the rapture. Thes same thing will happen with people driving cars. When it takes place there will be alot of caoss and destrucion on the earth and people will be confused about what has just taken place. You see people maybe like yourself has heard of it but just don't belive that it will happen. You see after the rapture and all of this caoss it sets the ground for the anti-christ to come on the scene and calm everyone down. US as christians know that the anti-christ can not come on the scene until the church is raptured out of here because right now we are still praying and basically the salt of the earth. I can tell you that we are really close and that he the ant-christ is probably a man right now and he knows what he is going to do. Whether you believe ME OR NOT IT WILL HAPPEN.

Robert Littel so be ready if you can don't wait until it is too late to give your heart to JESUS. He is coming back. And now it will not be as a baby. He is coming back as the conquering king and riding a white horse. Just read your bible and be ready. Every morning I get up I think to myself could this be the day? Becasue he will come in a twinkling of an eye. If you want to see an example of this just go to youtube and type Rapture. It will show a video of a preacher preaching and people at church. Then all of a sudden you hear a crack of thunder and some people in the church have been raptured and some left behind. This shows that just because you go to church doesn't make you a christian. You need to fully give your heart to JESUS and turn from your wicked ways and follow him. The word tells us to take up our cross daily and be a witness for him. And just because you are a nice person or do nice things doesn't make you a christian either. You have to be saved and born again. All you have to do is ask Jesus to come into your heart and he will forgive you of your sins. And live your life for him. It is called faith. Read your bible daily and pray. Because like I said whether you belive it or not it is going to happen the bible tells us this. And there's nothing that man can do to stop this event.

Robert Littel also one question. If you die like right now before the rapture takes place where will you spend eternity? HEAVEN OR HELL?

Joe - In as much as there is not now, nor has there EVER been the tiniest shred of proof that a god, or gods, exists, or has EVER existed, everything you have just spouted, is a made-up pile of drek. That any Human-being can be so ignorant, so vacuous, so easily conned by so little (as in none) evidence, is a testimony to the power of stupidity and its persistence throughout time. I have nothing but pity for the likes of you and would suggest you investigate a true miracle called "spell-check", it will make a real tangible difference in your life.

I went into a rapture reading your post--if this is what Joe's rapture feels like, it is exhilarating--I just fell over laughing--my ribs ache and I can't bear it. What a blast--total caoss, man, total caoss is what will engulf the world if the primitives carry on this way. Do you think Clay is actually Joe and Joe is actually Clay--but spelling is not one of Clay's weaknesses--the lord taught him how to spell--they are two distinct human beings after all but they sound frightening alike. Of course Clay will tell us when the day comes for rapture, spelling will count for peanuts--it's what's in your heart that will count Robert--do you have Jesus written in blood across your heart? If you don't then you will not rapture--you will be left unraptured in hell, my friend--are you prepared for this dire consequence? I am--I certainly don't want to be for an eternity at the same address as Clay or Joe even if that address is HEAVEN.
Ravensfan Anon

Well Robert you do have a right to your opinion and I respect that. Well one day we will see who is right! Well if I'm wrong what do I have to loose? If you are wrong then what happens when you die? Merry Christmas to you and your family.

Joe you have a screw loose and Robert has plenty to lose if he does as you say--he loses himself by falling into the trap of your mumbo jumbo. Get a grip on yourself please.
Ravensfan Anon

Everyone here have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Enjoyed the debate.

Answer:I personally wonder why someone doesn't at the very least believe there is a God. There is no evidence or proof that God isn't real.

With out God we are saying:

Nothing produces everything

Non life produces life

Randomness produces fine tuning

Chaos produces information

Unconsciousness produces consciousness

Non-reason produces reason

None of which makes sense!

The only option left is that God exists!

Let us all rememember that Christ's birth is what "Christmas" is all about. Merry Christmas and may God bless us all!

No manger scene in the White House? Separation of Church and State? O.K., how about no paid Christmas vacation for all government workers. After all, we would never want to be accused of violating the so-called "separation of church and state, would we? By the way, the posters who keep insisting that Christmas should be kept in a church only, should, on principle, forgo their Christmas holiday with pay, and refuse their Christmas gifts unless they receive them in church. As they say, "Religion belongs in church."

Since there is a PROFIT being made from a 'religious holiday' (Christmas) but, it is not to be mentioned as a 'religious holiday'...I feel that the companies making the PROFIT should have to contribute a % of the profits to our churches. It is because of 'religion' that these people make their $$$$

Joe - So any time you do not know the answer to any question, it automatically can, and must, be answered by invoking your made-up sky monster (aka god)? That is the process by which god concepts were first created by our feces flinging fore-bearers, when they climbed out of the trees, first stood upright and asked the question, "Why?". That so many of our species have not yet evolved beyond that less than efficacious view of reality is of great concern when we are now faced with a complicated world in need of a more pragmatic approach if we are to survive at all. When everything crumbles (with your help, no doubt), you may be comforted by believing it is some god's will, as you beseech your made-up deities for deliverance from the world you have destroyed by the application of your archaic view of reality, but at that point it will be far too late to do anything about it.

Robert you are so full of it. I really enjoyed the debate here. Hope you and your family have a MERRY CHRISTMAS and a great New Year. Lets hope it is a good one. Oh yes lets hope santa is good to you this year. I hope you've been a good boy this year. I am still laughing at your comments. Your inteligence is shocking to me. I bet you amaze yourself. Oh and since you do not believe in CHRISTMAS you can forward your CHRISTMAS bonus to me if you get one but I doubt it.


Oh and Robert it is God and not god as you type it.

Robert Littel - Pragmatism is nothing more than the religion of fools who want man to be the center of creation. It does nothing but promote chaos and death.

Look around you--nothing but chaos and death--sown mostly by religion--most people in the USA supposedly believe in a God and what do you have--murder, mayhem and pandemonium--and bin Laden--he believes in a god--and the men who shoot abortion docs--they believe in a god--and the men who perpetrated the Holocaust aligned themselves with the Catholic Church, and the Turks who persecute the Kurds love Allah, and the Turks who killed the Armenians prayed 6 times each day, and the ones who took up arms for the lord in the Crusades killed lots of men but loved god--and so on and so forth anonymous, the list is endless--stop preaching god as an antidote to man's follies--god is an invention of men and is a cause of dissension and incalculable damage to the men who fight over his name and his game. Pragmatism is the antidote to people like you who burst on the scene with the message that god is an antidote to chaos and death. With not a shred of evidence to support that outrageous statement anonymous you should put a lid on it.
Ravensfan Anon

Ravensfan Anon – You are correct there is much chaos and death and it’s sown by people not religion. Like most supporters of pragmatism you look to place blame for the world’s sorrow everywhere & anywhere but where it truly belongs on us flawed human beings. Saying you believe and living the life of someone who believes are two entirely different things. Anyone can stand up and call themselves a believer, but true believers live the life and that would include respect for all life including those who hate you. None of those you mention actually followed their faith rather they bent or bend it to suit their own interests. There is plenty that supports what I say, but someone whose mind is closed to the truth will continue to deny it. You show me where Christ called on any of his followers to kill in his name and I’ll put a lid on it. Otherwise you might do well to follow your own advice.

How Sad,
Our President has lied to about who he is (a Christian ?) and he still can't be honest about it because he's got to pass health care before Christmas. For a man who said he would not play manipulative politics he seems to be especially annointed for it.

I don't have a problem with the president saying they didn't want to have a manger in the WH because of family beliefs, but that wasn't the case. My problem is that they said they didn't want to have a "religious" Christmas... Christmas is supposed to be religious, it is about the birth of Jesus, even our seven year old son who has never been to church understands that one.

OK. Let's remember a number of things.

First, the White House is the President's personal home. How he and his family want to observe Christmas is his personal business. Face it, in the United States today, Christmas is largely a secular holiday (and a merchants' bonanza). What some of you think Christmas is "supposed" to be is, I'm afraid, more nostalgia than reality.

Next, surely even the most strident Christian religionists among you know observant Christians who don't have a creche in their homes at Christmas. It happens.

Next, the White House is also a Government building. Just as constructing a stone "monument" to the Ten Commandments on the Court House lawn is offensive in a pluralistic, officially secular society, erecting a Christian-specific "monument" in the White House has the potential for offense.

Finally, unlike in the United Kingdom, the President of the United States is not the head of the Official State Religion and has no obligation to observe Christmas at all, let alone in any specific way.

Give it a rest.

If the staff members and students who want porn at the University of Md. student center want to pay for the yearly maintenance, utilities and upkeep of the student center then maybe they should have more say in what is shown there. Until then, most Md. taxpayers dont want porn shown at the University and it shouldnt be shown. If the president wants to pay for the maintenance and utility bills, etc. for the White House then maybe he can have more say in what is displayed there. Until then, the White House is paid for by the American people and most American people celebrate Christmas. If people who criticize churches and God want to tell the churches that the churches cause more problems then they solve, then those people need to be more powerful than God and go create people and planets. Until then, they need to make an attempt to be happy and celebrate the holiday season. Merry Christmas to all.

Fascinating, Clay.

So, you are calling for mandatory "celebration"? Merry Christmas, indeed!

BankStreet - I agree that people need to give this whole topic a rest. What the president does or doesn't do with his personally is his and his families business. Far too many people seem more concerned with what he is doing about Christmas rather than what they are doing. Too many of us also seem too preoccupied with religious displays rather than living their faith with their words & actions.

Encouraging people, including the president, to be on fire for God, telling the truth about what God wants for our country and sticking up for Christians when they are attacked is not all inclusive, but it is very much a part of what I see God wanting people to do to show their faith with their words and actions. It certainly wont be mandatory. Mr Obama has a choice in what he wants to display. I think he should take into consideration what most Americans have chosen, and he decided to do that, even if he possibly did it to save votes in the next election, and I dont know that for sure. What will be mandatory is when we stand before Christ to be judged. When He decides to send us to heaven or hell, it will be mandatory. What better Christmas message could a Christian send to non believers than that? Have a good one.

Muslims have a term that is used when they want to lie in order to preserve the Islamic faith. The term is known as a "Hudnah" . Should a Muslim say that he is a Christian in order to forward the cause of Islam he may tell such a lies and receive the Blessings of every radical Muslim

To The President, Government, Etc. Any that DO NOT Celebrate Christmas in Any way. Should Not Be given Any Holiday Time OFF, Should be Made to WORK EVERY Day. Or Discounts when Buying. For Those Who Celebrate Christmas/ Hannakka/Etc.

Jesus is the reason for the season. We would think it strange to celebrate someone's birthday with a party without them being there, or not recognizing them. The Obamas need to realize this and give their hearts to Jesus and repent.

Thus Jesus is the reason for the season; not the presents, the Christmas trees, Christmas wreaths, Christmas parties, etc. We only celebrate His birthday with these items just like we celebrate our birthdays with cake and ice cream, party hats, and balloons. Merry Christmas to all!

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About Matthew Hay Brown
Matthew Hay Brown writes and blogs about faith and values in public and private life for The Baltimore Sun. A former Washington correspondent for the newspaper, he has long written about the intersection of religion and politics. He has reported from Africa, Asia, Europe, Latin America and the Middle East, traveling most recently to Syria and Jordan to write about the Iraqi refugee crisis.

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