I know what I've seen. I've read "The Ethnic Cleasing of Palestine" by the noted ISRAELI historian Ilan Pappe and his prima facia research from IDF documents. And there's the typical red herring of misdirection and false premise. The goal is not to punish Israel nor to delegitimize her. It is to have Israel do what is right and allow the Palestinians their rights as humans. It is suggested that the movie "Avatar" is an allegory for the Europeans taking over the continent from the Native Americans. It fits. It also fits the actions of the Zionists towards the Palestinians

American Jews should have the best interest of this country of ours, USA, first!

There is only one power which really counts. The power of political pressure. We Jews are the most powerful people on earth, because we have this power, and we know how to apply it.

- Vladimir Jabotinsky, Jewish Daily Bulletin, July 27, 1935

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."

-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

"When a Jew, in America or in South Africa, talks to his Jewish companions about 'our' government, he means the government of Israel."
- David Ben-Gurion, Israeli Prime Minister

...during an argument in an Israeli cabinet meeting, Shimon Peres warned Prime Minister Ariel Sharon that unless he would heed American requests for a cease fire with the Palestinians, he could cause America to turn against Israel. In a fit of anger, Sharon responded to Peres: "Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
- reported in Hebrew on the Israeli radio station, Kol Yisrael

The establishment of a religious state in Palestine in 1948 was a mistake. The world, in a moment of collective guilt and angst over what the Germans did to the Jews, and the part the rest of us played in not stopping it sooner, allowed the establishment of a religious state, a trend that contravened 500 years of the decline of religious political influence and the rise of the secular state. Once a religious state was allowed to come into being, others have, and are about to spring into existence in response. The progress of centuries is being thrown away as we allow intractable, inflexible and increasingly nuclear armed zealots, fighting a war against reason and logic, not only here, but in their imaginary spiritual realm, where logic and rationality does not exist (any more than their silly gods), to dominate our fragile existence. We are going to pay big time for this stupidity unless we correct this state of affairs immediately. The dismantling of all religious states must be accomplished, or they will lead us to their seemingly highly anticipated "end time" scenarios elucidated in their so called sacred books, and they will feel ignorantly justified in doing it.

Robert Littel - The only thing fragile is your reasoning skills. WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam I can certainly see the improvement in having a secular state alright. You are also woefully ignorant with how any of those sacred books mentions the end time. I don't think any call on man to cause it. You sound like one of those atheist nut jobs I've seen all over the net. You guys are more wacked out than any religious group.

Anonymous,
You are the one whacked out if you can't see the destructive role of religion and like most religious nuts masquerading as moderates you say the holy books do not dictate for men to bring about the end times. If there is a disparity between what the holy books say and what the followers of these books do in action, that disparity should be reconciled within the religious communities. For the outsiders, actions speak louder than words--here it goes--Hamas an all Islamic militant group versus Israel a Zionist state; Iran a Shiite state versus the rest of the world; Pakistan a Sunni Islamic state versus --India a nuclear state of majority Hindus--confronting each other over disputed Kashmir; Armenia Christian orthodox versus Turkey- Islamic; Armenia --Christian-- versus Azerbaijan-- majority Muslim; Bosnia-- Muslims--versus Catholic Croats versus orthodox Christian Serbs; Muslim Ottomans versus Christian Orthodox Greece; Turkish Muslim Cypriots versus Greek Christian Cypriots; Sri Lanka--Buddhist Sinhalese versus ethnic Hindu Tamils; separatist Kashmir--Muslims versus the Hindus of India; once separatist Khalistan--Sikhs versus majority Hindus of India; Sudan--Muslim fair skinned Arabs of the North versus dark skinned Christians of the South; Somalia--moderate Muslims versus extremist Muslims; Chechnya versus Russia--separatist Muslims for autonomy from Russia; Xinjiang--China--separatist Muslims for autonomy from China; Iraq--Shias versus Sunnis--versus Kurds; Iran--Azeris, Sunnis, Kurds and other minorities versus Shias; Catholics versus Protestants in the religious wars of Europe; WW2 Christians demonizing Jews and marking them for ethnic cleansing; Intifada 1 and Intifada 2--Muslim Arabs fighting Jews to vanquish the Jewish state; settlements on the West Bank--Jews trying to overrun and populate land slated for Muslim Arabs; colonies of North and South America--Christian Spanish missionaries converting animist native souls in the name of Christ while also selling their bodies into slavery; English missionaries converting native Americans to Jesus and forcibly driving them West--all in the name of civilization through Christianity; Australia-- the story repeats for the animist aborigines--acculturated and Christianized; Mughal invasion of India--razing of Hindu temples to the ground--mosques built in their place-followed by centuries of Muslim rule; Rome--persecution of Christians by the Roman pagans; Spanish Inquisition--burning at the stake of the infidels--you call Robert Littel a nut job Anonymous-- it is you who is the nut job--you pick up Vietnam and Korea as examples of secular states and then blame wars with those monikers on secularism----hardly accurate Anonymous--they were Communist states--in secular states there is freedom to worship God and freedom not to--you make the same mistake others do--calling Communist states secular-- Former USSR or North Korea or Vietnam or Laos were/are hardly secular. Robert or I or other Atheists do not want your right to spout rubbish or worship whatever fountainhead of faith you want to, be taken away from you or other religious nut cases--we want you to continue to pray to your phantom saints and gods--we are only saying that you cause havoc by and through your religious beliefs--the numerous examples I have given here Anonymous are ample proof of religion's molotov cocktail nature--you may protest Anonymous but the wacko cases are the religious--they are running around all over the world, recruiting, converting, proselytizing, warring, exploding and prophesying about the end of the world and the hereafter--the Atheist has nothing to say about the hereafter--no 72 virgins--no fire and brimstone--no Dante's Inferno--no Lucifer--no God the Allah-Yahweh--Buddha--Vishnu--Jesus-
Father--Son and Holy Espiritu--Anonymous my man or woman as the case may be--rest your case against Robert Littel--it holds little water--in fact it is an empty pot of know nothing rattle.
Ravensfan Anon

“If there is a disparity between what the holy books say and what the followers of these books do in action, that disparity should be reconciled within the religious communities”

If you believe that then why do you duck and cover over clear cases where atheist states started wars. In fact you are doing the very same thing you say I am doing wrongly. That makes you a hypocrite doesn’t it. You want it both ways. Robert Littel would end all religions if he had his way he’s as much as said that in various posts. I read his sermons of hate long before I ever posted. The bottom line that you don’t want to accept is the cause for suffering is humanity itself. It is humanities pride, greed, lust, anger, gluttony, jealousy that causes the misery. My case against Robert is dead on accurate and you know it as well as he does. You just refuse to admit it like him. I will not speak for any religion except Christianity. Show me where Christ commanded his followers to do anything remotely similar to you list and then we’ll talk about your views on religion

Give me a break Anonymous,
For me this is not about Christ--this is about the actions of the Christians and the actions within all religions that lead to wars--religions are incendiary, man made, and causes of the wars I have highlighted. I do not believe Robert Littel would want all religions off the table--I certainly don't--you can blab as much as you want to about your religion--you have a right to-- keep at it but don't try to tell me anonymous that men's nature alone leads to these abysmal conditions--it is the same nature that has led men to invent religions and gods that don't exist--for you the invention of religions is a natural and good thing Anonymous--for me it was the most destructive thing that men did to themselves. Yes, there are states that deny religious freedom and exert total control over their populations--the USSR was one such state but the USSR fought with the allies in WW2 remember? Even acknowledging your hypothesis about Atheist states the number of wars started by your "so called" Atheist states is small compared to the gigantic list of religious wars. You are the person who derided Littel and called him a nitwit for ignoring WW2, WW1, Korea and Vietnam Anonymous--my reply to you was, "Brother, or sister, as the case may be, take note of all these wars caused by religion." And your predictable broken record reply--Christ didn't ask people to do this. Heck, I don't care--it has nevertheless been perpetrated by men who made up religion--you're telling me that the made up religions are good--that the made up gods are lovely--same as the Taliban Anonymous --they say the same thing too--and when the Muslims excuse their terrorists they say the same thing--that Allah never asked people to commit suicide bombing--that the acts of violence are a great veering away from the Prophet and from Allah--same old same old Anonymous--you say it, they say it--every religious nut says it--not my religion, not my god, not my book of prophecies and yet it is Christians versus Muslims versus Buddhists versus Hindus, Catholics versus Protestants-year in and year out in killings and wars. Human nature alone?-- Man made religion the one big reason for all the slaughter and you want to sit pretty in your great pot of certitude chewing the cud and asking me to prove if your god asked anyone to be belligerent. He is your god not mine Anonymous. You do the proving--I'll judge the Christians, in the meantime, by their actions.
Ravensfan Anon