So the Bishops are talking about sex and marriage? It would be funny if they weren't so dangerous to equal rights. Leave your outdated opinions in church and stay out of lobbying congress.

Protests scheduled all days. Tweet often 2 keep the party go'n. Www.catholicssuck.com for updates.

The important question that the bishops should ponder include: How should the church minister to those couples who are not allowed to marry? How many of those couples have been denied the right to visit each other in hospital? How many of those couples have been harmed in other ways by the Church's position on marriage? How many children of those couples have been harmed? And finally, does the Catholic church have the right to use force to impose its beliefs on non-Catholics? And, by "defending marraige", have they done real, concrete harm to actual human beings?

Steve - Any examples of these claims? Do you understand the issues at hand?

p.s. no one is forced to do or believe anything.

^Steve: "Examples of these claims?"...Examples? Are you kidding? What rock are you living under? EVERYDAY gays and lesbians are denied hospital visitation rights, public accommodations, credit, jobs, insurance...EVERYDAY gay teens commit suicide because they can no longer bare the institutionalized discrimination and hatred towards homosexuals in this country. Now the church is an active, political participant in spreading this hatred. "The issues at hand" are not hard to understand: the Catholic church is fully involved in their persecution of homosexuals. Their the new mantra: "the Catholic church doesn't have a pedophile problem, it has a homosexual problem"...the scapegoating and lies are so obvious they are sickening.

Pattycakes,
The Catholic bishops are experts on sex without having any? Wow! Experience is the best teacher Pattycakes--the men must be doing it on the sly--they have a sickening preoccupation with it. Ravnesfan Anon

Ravensfan Anon - Don't you know that the tiny percentage of people who contract STDs from toilet seats are all celibate clergy, or so the story goes?

My, my, a lot of hate from people who claim they are love. A lot of anti-Christian rhetoric from the same people who claim they are victims. Wagon, CS, Steve, anonymous, all others that match, you are all nothing but a bunch of hypocrits. I'm gay, but I respect the views of other religions. Take your hatred elsewhere and get a life.

Mathius, God loves you and so do I.
with all my Love,
One Devout and Papist Catholic

CS - You are all over the place. I would suggest you withdraw from your emotional fortress and sterilize your tendentious claims which hold no base and do nothing to address the actual issue. Gay's committing suicide? public accommodations? denial of credit? What the heck does that tell us? You might want to rethink your rant so it actually attributes objective arguments to the point you are trying to make. You clearly do not understand the position of the church in the matter.
Insightful observation Mathius. The "hate" is the real obstacle. Hate is a bi-product of uninformed opinions (on both sides). As I am clearly "living under a rock", I would point out that all of the homosexual people I know are just fine. Wonderful lads/ladies I might ad; charming, witty, intelligent. They have no problems with social responsibility, productivity, peers, etc. They are not bitter or regretful. They work towards being good people. I do not judge them. Some are active Christians and strive to live according to teaching. I actually share with them my beliefs and why I believe. They respect that. They don't feel the need to make a sign and lobby out front of a government building or a church pushing "what divides" even further. They are living full lives being people. Equal rights? what do they need to be equal? I would argue the "extremist" are the ones living in fear and hate... for what? to create a "name" for homosexuality which puts them up on a special level? give me a break. That paradigm which our "progressive" culture is "shoving down the throat" of society is exactly the problem. Why can't we all just get along as equals? It starts with looking in the mirror.

p.s. Robert!! could it be? is it really you? Ravensfan and I were speculating you may have found God! I was worried for a second there. Welcome back friend! Make sure you are layering the toilet paper in those public stalls buddy.

Mathius - Great post my friend. We have too many victims or victims’ advocates spreading hate while trying to claim the moral high ground. They look for instances they can use to malign others who think believe differently. Pattycakes is correct it's the extremist at both ends that are the ones that generate fear & hate. Wouldn’t it be nice if we learned to respect others views even when we don't share them.

Rfan Anon - Do you mean experts on the "Kama Sutra" or the biological act of sex? or do you mean the psychological and spiritual side -- implications and consequences of using or abusing our sexuality -- which is needed in today's world? I am going to make a calculated bet you are referring to the act of "getting it on" because given your posts, I have no reason to believe you see any other depth of purpose for it.

I know you are not that silly to think that because these men have not experienced the ACT they know nothing of sexual responsibility. Give me a break Ravensfan Anon, these guys would know better then most the type of discipline it takes to be a sexually responsible person. That strength can only be achieved with an understanding of purpose; we are here to love God and man and be loved back. Physical love is a gift to be cherished and respected. You think we are here by accident, therefore it makes sense to just "get it on" and let the good times role. What could go wrong?

Biology is at work in all of us, don't think we are robots that were meant to be square, sexless drones -- common popular argument against abstinence -- but this misses the mark and gives no credit to the gift of human sexuality and a deeper meaning. Once we realize that these bishops are trying to make a better world for everyone (gay and straight alike) then we can learn to understand just how special we humans are.

Pattycakes: you have gay friends?...right, sure. Anyone claiming to be gay on this blog should do a little more research before expecting intelligent people to believe your "I'm gay but..." lines. Http://catholicssuck.com

CS - Ya, no I'm not gay, but thanks for asking. Sorry I guess it is unacceptable in your books being straight and having a few gay friends and acquaintances. I mean come on, they cannot possibly have anything in common with us "normal" people and it just would not be comprehensible to be gay and Christian!

Gays are only crazy, left wing freedom fighters prancing to "Everybody Dance Now" blasting on a tape-deck while jumping holding signs saying "GIVE US RIGHTS" and living fearful, jobless existences and not being able to even take a vacation because the travel agents shun them and even if they could go book a destination, TO BAD! they couldn't get past customs and even if they did the pilot would kick them off onto the runway while the plane was in motion....
No, CS it just doesn't make sense to be gay and "accepted". I guess the rock I'm under is just that big...

Your nuts man, maybe you should just keep on spreading the "warm fuzzy feelings" and keep up your ridiculous delusions for your fantastic website.

pattycakes - Bundles of six wire coat-hangers, or knitting needles are now being marketed as do-it-yourself at home self abortion kits and they are going to be marketed as a "Stupak". Better stock up while they are available.

Calling any civil union between same sex partners "a threat to society" just makes me glad I don't waste my time in church on Sunday anymore.

Robert - I wonder what the woman would do with the kit? Pretty gross huh?

The Catholic church - now that it isn't fashionable to hate Jews after the Catholic Hitler and his gang murdered 6 million of them and 50 million others, the church has a new group to hate. the Gays.

Remember Matthew Shepard - a couple of good catholic boys picked him up, tied him to a fence, beat his face to a pulp, and then bashed in his head with a rifle butt.

At the trial, the local catholic church tried to fix the jury and also tried to smear the prosecutor. Fortunately the perpetrators will rot in jail for life. But the church hierarchy will unfortunately not be there with them.

Just the other day a 14 year old "out" gay kid in very Catholic Puerto Rico was found - he had been murdered, beheaded,

The investigating officer said the boy should have expected what happened to him.

The above is a couple example of the church's love and how they incite murder with their meally mouthed condemnation of gay people - who Jesus never spoke against, for they are also part of God's creation.

And every year we have a 9/11 in this country of our children. 3000 gay kids commit suicide because they cant take the ostracism and bullying etc which is a product of the Catholic church and its "so called love" which poisons our society.

About May of this year, 2 - 11 year olds who were not gay but were bullied and called gay at chool hanged themselves in the same week. How many of the church hierarchy were convicted and sent to prison for the crime of incitement of murder by condemnation. And we must ask just how many of the other 6000 kids here that commit suicide each year are secretly gay, or like these 2 11 year olds. Or like the very common example of kids who failing with girls think that there is nothing else to do except "become gay" - the church's greatest lie - about it being a choice - and these kids are suicidal also.

How do I know that - because I had a kid like that. We were lucky, we got him psych care, everything worked out ok. But we really could have lost our son. BTW, he is prob the straightest guy on earth.

The list is endless. It also includes the church 65 years after the end of mankinds worst conflagration, WWII, has not yet excommunicated hitler. Who was Catholic and learned his hatred of Jews growing up in very Catholic Austria.

And this is the church that would end your right to birth control.

NO one, yes No one should go to this church, except those brainwashed individuals who have sold their soul and their ability to think independently to this institution.

And I guarantee that if enough people leave the church, and it faces even more bankruptcies, the church will change its teachings and condemnations.

Proving that money is the root of all evil, and that includes the catholic hierarchy.

And don't let their abortion biz capture you. They think this is their trump card. From the church that, given it's longevity, has probably been part the greatest aborter of real live people over its history. by being allied with criminals who created the crusades against the muslims. Hitler of course, and being involved on one side or the other in so many European wars.

No matter how anyone twists it, Catholic love for gays is actually hatred, and trying to force them to change.

Isn't it about time the church changed, and recognized gays as part of God's creation, and stopped calling them inherently disordered, or their new meally mouth statement - People with a Homo-sexual inclination.

In that above sentence, they use the term Homo, which is a slur. They use the term Homo-sexual - bringing to mind the horror they have implanted in so many people about what gay sex is all about. And " inclination" is the great lie - The main Psych association voted 125 to 4 that being gay is an inborn trait, not a choice or inclination.. Which means the church comment about it being an inclination or a choice is just the newest version of their flat earth theory , with the sun revolving around the earth.

But now, instead of torturing and burning people at the stake for challenging the church's lies and ignorance, , they have evolved into being able to get other people to do their dirty work of denigrating and dening the humanity of gay people. Which includes condemnation, being ostracized from their families, driven to suicide or drink, being fired from their jobs if they are outed etc.

The catholic - Hitler got an intelligent group of people who gave the world great science and music to follow him, with his ideology of hatred. We know the result. The church does the same thing to gay people with their ideology.

Including the fact that when kids come out, about 25% of them are thrown out of their house the day they become 18. Thanks to the Catholic churchs sick version of love, and how they poison our society.

Some day, not far into the future, gay people will be accepted as just another part of God's creation, and will be treated with respect, and equality under our laws.

Let us hope there will be severe penalties for those who use gay people as whipping boys and victims to sell a corrupt version of love. A "love" which is one of the greatest lies on earth.

Katie – Your little tirade against the Church was filled with a few inaccuracies. First it’s the act not the person which the Church says is inherently disordered. That’s in the Catechism (CCC# 2358). CCC# 2358 goes on to say “They do not choose their homosexual condition” It also goes on to say they must be treated with respect, compassion and sensitivity and that unjust discrimination should be avoided. The Church won’t condone the acts because they are specifically condemned in both the Old and New Testaments. I haven’t seen any Church that condones the behavior you are claiming. My own actually has a ministry for Gay & Lesbians and there families in order to help prevent exactly the kinds of behavior you mention. Do you actually have anything to support the claims you made about the percentage of kids thrown out, or linking it to Church teachings? Unfortunately it’s you who has the corrupt version of love and quite a few wrong ideas about the Catholic Church as well.

@ravensfan:

Just how easy is it for you to separate your heterosexual "acts" from your heterosexual "person"? Demanding such mental gymnastics of Gay people is what passes for "love" from the Catholic church. No thanks!

BankStreet - I'm a person who happens to be heterosexual not a heterosexual person. The gymnastics are caused by those who felt a need to label someone based on their sexual actions. I’m sorry you feel the need to place a label on people.
ravensfan

There are mental gymnastics and linguistic gymnastics, I guess. Put simply, I am asking how the church expects anyone (you? me?) to separate one's sexual self (which, by definition, includes "acts") from one's ... sexual self? I am a happily homosexual man; my sexuality is part and parcel of who I am. For the church to ask that I deny that particular gift from my Creator is supremely arrogant ... and an impossibility. The church's prescription is for unhealthy denial.

BankStreet –The Church never said it would be easy to do. The Church’s position is based on the Bible. Unfortunately what you call a gift is in reality a Cross you have to bear. I’m sorry to say the one in denial is you. Did you notice how much you mention the word self as opposed to others? It seems like you want is the Church change to suit you. Even if it could that wouldn’t change the truth. I’m truly sorry if that offends you. That isn’t my intent. Nor is it to pass any judgment on you.

Sexuality is a gift from God. One cannot separate the "sexual self" from the spiritual self. This is what differentiates us from other beings. Once this is established, you can begin to discover the logic and reasoning for church teachings on the subject. It has NOTHING to do with hatred and "discrimination". On the contrary, it has everything to do with a RELATIONSHIP with Jesus (who IS love), and a profound responsibility to ourselves and others. Classifying the teaching as "hatred" is a lack of objective scrutiny and understanding by not reflecting on the deep seated wisdom and reason as per our calling in the natural, physical and spiritual world.

Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual ACTS as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." They are contrary to the natural law. They CLOSE THE SEXUAL ACT TO THE GIFT OF LIFE. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity.

The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is NOT NEGLIGIBLE. This inclination, which is OBJECTIVELY disordered (not emotionally or subjectively), constitutes for most of them a trial (mixed feelings from discrimination, emotional stress, spiritual stress). THEY MUST BE ACCEPTED WITH RESPECT, COMPASSION, AND SENSITIVITY. EVERY SIGN OF UNJUST DISCRIMINATION IN THEIR REGARD SHOULD BE AVOIDED. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS ARE CALLED TO CHASTITY (as are ALL persons). By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

We are all part of creation and should be respected as such.

Ravensfan,

This will be my last contribution to this debate. We all know we will never convince the other. You will never convince me that my sexuality is sinful or a "cross." (My staying married to a woman for sixteen years was both, by the way.) I will never convince you of your folly and that your message is not one of judgment and -- yes -- hate. Your suggestion that I am in any sort of denial is ludicrous, and your observation concerning my use of the word, "self" in my note to you is facile and absurd. Your own denial of the pain and trauma suffered by Gay kids is repugnant; my reference to the "self" was as much directed to your own parroting of the Church's impossible demand that any of us (remember, I included you in that charge, but you conveniently sidestepped that challenge) separate our sexuality -- which, of necessity, includes action -- from our inherent (and God-given) essence. As I said when I began, I will not continue this debate. I do, though, ask that you examine your words (and heart); however, I sincerely doubt that you are able to see beyond the dogma and twisted teachings of which you are a victim to realize (to repeat) your folly and sanctimony. Yours is not a message of love, nor is that of the Bishops, deny that though you will.

BankStreet – Well I’ll agree with you on one thing we probably wouldn’t be able to change the others mind. I don’t recall denying that gay kids don’t suffer pain and trauma. I did question a percentage number that was thrown out since there was no reference as to where it came from. You also chose to ignore in that same post my comment about my own Church’s Gay & Lesbian Ministry to try and help stop that pain and trauma. I’ve searched m heart and conscience on this topic many times since I was troubled when my Church started its Gay & Lesbian Ministry. In the end I’m left with the fact that the Bible itself condemns homosexual acts as being morally wrong. The Church’s position is based on that. Nowhere does any message from the Church encourage hate or violence. Yes I know people have inflicted it on people. Those who do are not following the Christian message as given to us by Christ. I’m sorry that you feel acknowledging behavior as wrong equates to hate. I don’t hate you or any other person. In the end of the two of us you sound like the full of arrogance and hate and I can’t help but wonder why? No need to respond. I’m quite at peace with my position. I hope you can say the same.

ravensfan - How fortunate you are that your book of fairy-tales (buy-bull) so backs up your underlying prejudices and bigotries. It must be such a comfort to have such a mound of rubbish to fall back on.

Robert - Yes I am fortunate. I have a guide to while you stumble in the dark. I guess that's why I don't have to resort to hate and malice like you. Deep down you aren't at peace and you lash out at those who have it.

ravensfan - If I was dying of a horrible and painful disease, I would not even think of trading places with you. The cost of doing so would demean my worth as a rational being so much, that I would be better off in the void of non-existance.

Robert – How can you demean something you don’t have? I feel sorry one person can be so much in the dark and so full of contempt for others.