You know darn well that these people should attend fundamantalist bible believing churches. There is no sense in trading gay for bingo and unneccesary rituals.

It's okay to love your Episcopalians... just don't *love* your Episcopalians.

Clay, Thanks for your thoughtful comment. On behalf of Catholics everywhere, let me say that we're glad that you've made the decision to not participate in our "unnecessary rituals."

Greg, if you would get rid of the alcohol and praying to mortal humans, stop believing that you are saved through baptism, start taking communion on occasion instead of feeling that it is absolutely neccesary every service, get rid of the statues and all that stuff and stand up and clap hands and sing and get excited once in awhile I wouldnt mind coming. The Basilica is a nice place to visit at Christmas.

Clay, Aside from preconceived notions, have you any knowledge of what the Catholic church is about. The alcohol to which you refer is consecrated wine, which is the blood of Christ. We do not pray to "mortal humans" (which is redundant, and I have no idea of what you are saying). Do you realize that each Mass is a celebration of the Eucharist, which was instituted by Christ at the Last Supper? That is the reason why we take communion at every Mass. If you're going to weigh in with comments about the Catholic faith, try to have some understanding about it. By the way, glad to hear that you like the Basilica at Christmas. It is beautiful, even with all of those statues. Peace buddy.

I meant beer at the crabfeasts with guys feeling good etc and praying to Mary, Peter and Paul etc. They were mortal humans. Spend that time praying to Christ is what I am saying. If the bible doesnt tell you to do it, dont do it. In fact Peter and Paul discouraged people from falling before them. Masses need to be alot more than the Eucharist, and I realize that there is a sermon. People need to be on fire for God, not feel that the rituals have made them ok. Most people arent ok, and they can take all the wine and bread they want. Also buying mass cards to get someone out of purgatory? Baloney. If you arent saved when you die there are no second chances. If so the bible would tell us that. God bless.

Clay, I see you are still spreading your misconceptions about the Catholic Church. I'm not going to go through yet again the many flaws in your post. What I'd suggest is you actually try learning about the things you criticize including the Church's basis for them. A while back I suggested a book for your to read. " A Biblical Defense of Catholicism" The author former Evangelical Protestant was doing research in order to argue against Catholicism and ended up converting to it. I'm not saying that it would or should have that effect on anyone else. It will give you a much clearer picture of what the Church is about.

Thanks for the laugh. My morning is now complete.

Well there has been very little defense here of anything I have said about the Catholic church. I wonder why? It is always "go to this website" or whatever. Thanks.

OK Clay - Here you go brother, Since you don’t want to research... Here is the answer to your questions...

1. The Church is one: she acknowledges one Lord, confesses one faith, is born of one Baptism, forms only one Body, is given life by the one Spirit, for the sake of one hope (cf. Eph 4:3-5), at whose fulfillment all divisions will be overcome.

2. The Church is holy: the Most Holy God is her author; Christ, her bridegroom, gave himself up to make her holy; the Spirit of holiness gives her life. Since she still includes sinners, she is "the sinless one made up of sinners." Her holiness shines in the saints; in Mary she is already all-holy.

3. The Church is catholic: she proclaims the fullness of the faith. She bears in herself and administers the totality of the means of salvation. She is sent out to all peoples. She speaks to all men. She encompasses all times. She is "missionary of her very nature.”

4. The Church is apostolic. She is built on a lasting foundation: "the twelve apostles of the Lamb" (Rev 21:14). She is indestructible (cf. Mt 16:18). She is upheld infallibly in the truth: Christ governs her through Peter and the other apostles, who are present in their successors, the Pope and the college of bishops.

5."The sole Church of Christ which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, . . . subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him. Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its visible confines.”

This is the authority of the church dude. This is historically accurate. We use the bible just like you and there are lots of teachings from which to draw from. The difference between what you are questioning and what you practice is that the church has 2000 years of interpretation and reflection through the popes, theologians, holy men and woman from which to also draw from which builds the modern church through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

You can’t mess with it. It is our faith in this “revelation” which you can trace back to JESUS himself. So you see, without the leadership and foundation of the one church, you are on your own man. You are interpreting the good book yourself.

There’s more to being a Christian then quoting scripture and feeling good inside. Peter was in the bible. He was the first pope. You don’t read the word “pope” but thats how it went down. This is the reality. All of the stories which are written are INSPIRED. Some events simply did not literally happen but pose an important message for all of humanity to reflect upon. You have to realize this my friend.

As far as Saints go? you have to understand we don’t pray AT them, we ask them to go to JESUS for favors we ask (prayers). It’s like when your on vacation in Jamaica and you call your sister to tell your parents you love them. It is so much more personal when you have a MORTAL example of human spiritual “perfection”. God has given us the Saints as human examples of “every-day” life. For example...a doctor, a engineer, a scientist. You are not a Saint though until you have had a actual supernatural miracle performed from devotion to you. Devotion meaning what I stated as asking the “Saint” to ask Jesus to help them out. A thorough investigation ensues from Rome to determine if it was indeed a true miracle. We don’t “worship saints” as many of you perceive. That would be blasphemous. This is a simple explanation. but I hope you sort of see the significance of all this. It’s the real deal! Why not come back home man?

I didnt say that you worship saints. I said that God's word doesnt tell me to ask them for anything. If they were alive, yes. And of course we are to pray to Christ and the Holy Spirit and the Father. To pray for a dead person is a heresy, no matter who they were. Its not that they arent in heaven neccesarily of course. A priest commands Christ to come down into a wafer? That is a heresy. As I said, If I prayed to Moe of the Three Stooges and someone was healed from cancer or some other problem and others were healed also, would the Vatican declare him a saint even if they had it happen to themselves or would they come up with an excuse like the fact that he was Jewish? Rome and its history are what we need in churches the least, Constantine being an emporer from a wicked Roman empire. The fact that we are all Christians since Christ doesnt mean that this one church is just Catholic. All Christian faiths compose Christ's church. To say that only one does is prideful. We are all Christian brothers and sisters. Thanks and God bless.

Clay caught in a sticky web of Catholics! Pattycakes you are back, with para after para of pure Catholicism. Ravensfan and you too, stout defender of the Catholic faith--do not the Catholics pray to their saints for this that or other? Clay, the puritan, objects to beatification, lionization and prayers and pleas to saints. Also idolatry, the gorgeous statues in the Catholic churches--the only reason to visit them in my opinion--this, Clay the Protestant finds objectionable-- the hypocrite, keeps it polite though, even as he excoriates and damns the Catholics he says "we are brothers and sisters in the lord". The last para you have written Clay, qualifies as the worst gibberish I have read. Do you or do you not equate Catholicism with paganism? Go to Rome Clay and see for yourself the Catholic churches. They were built on the ashes of the Roman temples--paganism lives in the Catholic churches--in the naves and the nooks and the crannies---Zeus and Diana were replaced by the saints.

These Christian wars are great--music to the ears of the non believers.
Ravensfan Anon

God's word is never sticky. It is always very simple. God bless.

Clay - Regardless of what you say you are in fact passing judgment on another as somehow inferior Church. You are doing it based on incomplete and inaccurate knowledge on the Catholic Church and the Bible itself. Maybe you should spend more time actually reading history and the Bible rather than simply reading off fundamentalist’s talking points. For someone who claims all Christians are brothers and sisters you come off sounding like the early Jewish ones who claimed that Gentiles who didn’t follow the Jewish Laws were somehow not really saved.

Rav's Anon - Hey buddy! how's it going? Yes... I guess Clay is caught in a sticky web of Catholics! lol.
Good observation on the dialogue there. I would be entertained as well.
"do not the Catholics pray to their saints for this that or other? "
- Ravensfan Anon
Yes, we do. As I was mentioning to clay it is a spiritual request for the Saint to "take the message" to "God" for us. We don't worship them. It is structured such so that upon the knowlede of the particular Saint being prayed to, we on earth ("mortals") have a realization that although they are holding a special place in the faith, they are HUMAN examples for us to mimic to become "Saint-Like". These individuals lived fantastic lives of sacrifice, charity, academia, "doing to others as they would have done to themselves" all for the love of a "higher being". There are still Saints in-the-making even today.
As far as the "split" in the church regarding our denominational brothers and sisters, yes Clay we are all "God's brothers and sisters" along with the theists and non-believers. It's not really as big an issue if you look at it in that respect. Theologically, yes there are differences which will be worked out over time. Due to our "humanness" as some of my non-believing buddies like to point out; Religion is MAN-MADE so by it's nature it is fallible. This is the reality I agree, so if you can use faith supported by logic/reason and thereby better yourself personally, spiritually and sociologically, you will ultimately gravitate towards the "true" church/faith. For myself and others this is the Catholic Church. Sure I was "spoon-fed" the teachings but being an adult I tested these believes and this is what makes sense to me. I respect all views, and when you are excited about something you find true and beneficial, you are going to share it with others right? I can respect your views but create dialogue to educate you on my views to see the reasoning.

I admire Ravensfan Anon for actually trying to backup his view and educate the believers on his reasons for not believing (I still can't logically see how we are better off as a race without "God" with secular agendas which hold no moral truth). Robert just seems bitter from a bad religious experience and thus rationalizes through biased eyes. Clay needs to head back to Sunday School more/less.

During Martin Luther's time, Catholics would come into town selling things so that the pope would forgive you for your sins. At least that is how it was advertised. Maybe the pope's official position was that he would pray for the people's sins. Anyway Martin Luther said that the pope has no more special ability than any other man to do this. The Catholic church still sells mass cards so that someone may get out of purgatory, which God doesnt mention in His word. I believe that you can also send away for higher priced items for the same basic reasons. This is heresy and not what God wants us to do, and yet it is still going on. I think that this would make a good Sunday school lesson for anyone, especially Catholics. Thanks.

Clay - No one can "buy" someone out of purgatory. I must say I haven't seen any lately in the parish I attend. If any Catholic prayer cards are being sold for profit with the understanding that just the fact that the person BOUGHT it the soul will be saved, then that is ridiculous I agree. This is not the point however. The point is that the individual can actually PRAY the stated prayer in order to assist the soul's journey to Heaven. Having said this, you must actually pray for the souls in purgatory. I agree, anyone selling these as a way of making profit is wrong. Most of the funds from SOUND religious relics, memorabilia, prayer cards and the like are used to fund charitable works, programs, the poor and account for any expenses incurred producing them. Once anyone has this as a business for personal profit, you are in a bad spot. Recall Jesus in the temple freaking out on the merchants? You can't "save souls" by the ACT of buying something. This would be a wonderful topic for Sunday school... nice point Clay

Clay - I will be the first to admit that abuse of powers by leaders of the Catholic Church were one of the main causes of the Protestant Reformation. What you are referring to was called the sale of indulgences a practice it has been banned since the late 16th century I believe. Mass cards have nothing to do with purgatory. They are a card sent to a bereaved person or family indicating that the sender has arranged for a Mass to be said in memory of the deceased. It would be the same as you donating money to your church for your pastor to have a service in memory of someone who died. Any money paid is used for some charitable function. Clay you really need to stop making accusations with incomplete and inaccurate information. Instead of lecturing Catholics maybe you should educate yourself on Catholicism first. By the way did you know that opinion is that Anabaptists, by name, began with the radical reformers in the 16th century?

Good point Ravensfan on the "sale of indulgences". Thanks for spelling it out.

Mass cards still have been misused in recent times. My point is that we have Christ to pray to. Thats one of the reasons why He came here, to replace praying to or for mortal humans who have passed away. Not that there was anything wrong with the example set by those people who are no longer here. Thanks.

Clay - How exactly have Mass cards been misused in recent times? If you are going to make that accusation you really need something to support it. Where does the Bible forbid prayers for the dead? In the Greek Old Testament, from which Jesus quoted and the Apostles received from the Jewish people, there is a commendation of prayers for the dead in:

II Maccabees 12: 42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;
44for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.
45But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

The only point you are making is that you know very little about the Catholic Church, possibly the Bible itself and have trouble with Christ’s message on judging others.

Okay, forgive me, but I have to ask. Clay, were you ever a writer for "All in the Family?" I could swear that I've heard this stuff before...

Of course most bibles dont have the book of Maccabees do they? I know King James doesnt. You cant make atonement for a dead person. Christ talks a lot about what happens when we die in sin. Thanks.

And also, you may want to do a little research yourself. Try a search for "mass cards purgatory?" One site that comes up is ask a catholic dot com. Someone is asking how the mass card can help her mother who is already dead. If they are only used for asking a priest to have an additional mass then there are a lot of misconceptions in the Catholic church about them. In the response to the lady someone mentions that the saints are in heaven praying for us. I dont recall seeing this in the bible, nor anything about purgatory that convinces me that such a place really exists. Thanks.

Clay - Did you know until around 1820 Protestant Bibles did include them. Clay how exactly is having a mass in memory for someone deceased any violation of Christ's word. You still haven't answered that as well as your other allegations.

Clay may I suggest you read Romans 14:13 and you think about it before your next
post.
ravensfan

Why not Clay? Care to expand on that? What do they teach when you attend church? bible study, etc?

Why would anyone object to having a mass for someone deceased? I am talking about the misconceptions that people have over the mass cards such as I pointed out in my post above. Romans 14:13? It talks about stumbling blocks. Stumbling blocks? I think misconceptions about mass cards can be a stumbling block. I am pointing it out to help you, not to cause you to stumble. I dont know why that book is no longer included. I take the passage above in Maccabees to say that the man made atonement for the dead through his "holy and pious thought" and thus he thought he was making atonement for the dead, which isnt possible. It is saying that he had good intentions, just as myself. If I point out these things to Catholics who spend all this time on things like mass cards and purgatory I have all the good intentions to help them, not cause them to stumble. Thanks.

Clay you’re the one with the misconception over mass cards. You just can’t seem to admit it. First you confused indulgences with mass cards then after I pointed that out you made a baseless accusation about mass cards being misused in recent times.

Read all the entire passage from Romans and pay attention to the first phrase.

“Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.”

You may have good intentions in mind, but most definitely putting trying to put stumbling blocks in the way of Catholics. You are commenting on things you clearly don’t have a complete understanding of. I don’t know if you are coming up with all this on your own or hearing it at your church, but if you want to comment on Catholicism you need to research it. If we wanted to dig into it all the various Christian denominations have theological issues we could argue over. It’s been done for centuries now. Why don’t you try focusing on the big things we all agree on and not the little ones which divide us.
ravensfan

These are the words of the late Pope John Paul 2 on the subject.

Before we enter into full communion with God, every trace of sin within us must be eliminated and every imperfection in our soul must be corrected. To share in divine life we must be totally purified

"In Sacred Scripture, we can grasp certain elements that help us to understand the meaning of this doctrine, even if it is not formally described. They express the belief that we cannot approach God without undergoing some kind of purification. According to Old Testament religious law, what is destined for God must be perfect. As a result, physical integrity is also specifically required for the realities which come into contact with God at the sacrificial level such as, for example, sacrificial animals (cf. Lv 22:22) or at the institutional level, as in the case of priests or ministers of worship (cf. Lv 21:17-23). Total dedication to the God of the Covenant, along the lines of the great teachings found in Deuteronomy (cf. 6:5), and which must correspond to this physical integrity, is required of individuals and society as a whole (cf. 1 Kgs 8:61). It is a matter of loving God with all one's being, with purity of heart and the witness of deeds (cf. ibid., 10:12f.)."

"The need for integrity obviously becomes necessary after death, for entering into perfect and complete communion with God. Those who do not possess this integrity must undergo purification. This is suggested by a text of St Paul. The Apostle speaks of the value of each person's work which will be revealed on the day of judgment and says: "If the work which any man has built on the foundation [which is Christ] survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:14-15)."

Purgatory is not a place but a condition of existence

"In the New Testament Christ is presented as the intercessor who assumes the functions of high priest on the day of expiation (cf. Heb 5: 7; 7: 25). But in him the priesthood is presented in a new and definitive form. He enters the heavenly shrine once and for all, to intercede with God on our behalf (cf. Heb 9: 23-26, especially, v. 24). He is both priest and "victim of expiation" for the sins of the whole world (cf. 1 Jn 2: 2). Jesus, as the great intercessor who atones for us, will fully reveal himself at the end of our life when he will express himself with the offer of mercy, but also with the inevitable judgment for those who refuse the Father's love and forgiveness."

"This offer of mercy DOES NOT EXCLUDE THE DUTY to present ourselves to God, pure and whole, rich in that love which Paul calls a "[bond] of perfect harmony" (Col 3:14)."

"Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church's teaching on purgatory. The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ who removes from them the remnants of imperfection." (cf. Ecumenical Council of Florence, Decretum pro Graecis:  DS 1304; Ecumenical Council of Trent, Decretum de iustificatione:  DS 1580; Decretum de purgatorio:  DS 1820).

My apologies if this may be a bit "deep", however it is fantastic teaching on the importance, and more over, some of the biblical references which have established the "framework" for Catholic teachings on the matter.

Well, first, I didnt make a baseless accusation about mass cards. Even according to ask a Catholic dot com, people get mass cards and pray that a relative or whoever will get out of purgatory. They are still understood that way by some people and used that way by some people, even if it isnt the official position of the church. And the pope above seems to indicate that we will be in a condition called purgatory to be cleansed for purification before we are to go to heaven. If that happens fine, but it isnt mentioned in the bible and the big point is that God is the One who will do it, we cant do it ourselves. It is impossible to make oneself free from sin and if we cant do it before death, we aint gonna do it afterwards. All I am asking the Catholic church to do is to stop adding things to the bible and stop being proud. It isnt that other churches dont do it. The point is this. When churches like the Baptist Church, or the Church of the Nazarene or The Church of God or independent churches on fire for God make mistakes, those mistakes are much less likely to be approved by the head of the church body. So when I say for Catholics to attend other churches, it would really be best for the Catholic church to change and be more like those other churches. I have attended all of the churches I mentioned. How many Catholics have? Thanks and God bless.

Clay – Catholic.com has a lot of information. Could you provide the actual link I couldn’t find what anything to support your claim. Based on how you phrased your response it still sounds like an opinion on your part. In fact you admit you don’t know the official Church position, but still pass judgment. The concept of purification is mentioned in the Bible try looking at the following passages Psalm 66:12, Isaiah 4:4, Micah 7:8-9, Matt 5:22, Matt 5:25-26 Matt 12:32 which indicates forgiveness in the age to come. True no name is given and the Church decided to name it. If someone does pray for the dead they are pleading with God on behalf of that person. Are you saying that pleading to God on behalf of someone deceased is sinful? The Catholic Church has added nothing to the Bible. That is simply an assumption you make based either on your own misconceptions or those someone told you. Either way it’s simply not true. How exactly is the Catholic Church being proud Clay? Your statement that those other Churches are on fire for God and less likely to approve mistakes is in fact prideful on your part. You seem to be holding them up as better wouldn’t that being proud? Maybe you should heed your own advice my friend. If those Churches are making those claims then wouldn’t they be the proud ones? I have been to Baptist, Lutheran, Episcopal and Pentecostal Churches and out of those I found far more Baptists and Pentecostals as prideful and judgmental of other denominations. That being said I don’t judge the entire Church based on the actions of some as you seem to want to do with Catholics. How can the Bible be the sole source for Christians when the New Testament didn’t even exist when the apostles were proclaiming the Good News. The apostles weren’t handing out Bibles when they evangelized. In fact the Bible itself speaks of the first Apostolic Conference The Council of Jerusalem which took place around 50AD. In fact Clay it’s the Catholic and Orthodox Church that are the primary reason the New Testament exists in its current form. I don’t say that to imply either or both are somehow better than yours or anyone else’s. These discussions always come back to the same place Clay. You don’t have a clear understanding about the Catholic Church, don’t want to actually find out, and appear to want to pass judgment on it and Catholics. You may be well intentioned, but you are not following what is written in the Bible yourself so maybe you should remove the log from your own eye rather than pointing out the speck in someone else’s.

Lordy, lordy,
Robert Littel looks like a perfect genius in the face of this drivel. Arguing over mass cards. What next? I knew about, papal indulgences, sold to sinners for a price so they can reserve a place for themselves in the hereafter. But mass cards? Wow--this takes the cake. Come on Clay--you've been trying to prove to the Catholics they have not hewed to the Bible in its splendid purity by using mass cards to get their dead folks out of purgatory. You haven't succeeded have you? Once in purgatory, always in purgatory you say Clay and they say, "Not so, get us the mass cards, get us the rosary beads and we'll pray for purgatory to go away!" and I say, when the religious bray, even village idiots seem like high end intelligentsia in comparison. I better run for my life from Ravensfan and the ever eloquent Pattycakes before they start scolding me like two senile school marms. "You sound so childish anon--have you taken the place of the babbling Littel? If all you can do is insult....Shows the weakness of your arguments...blah, blah, blah" I am going to get me some rosary beads and mass cards, say some abracadabra over them and puffing smoke from my forehead go looking for other dragons to slay--I am sure I will find me some dim variety (I quote Mr.Rational when I say that--the man is precious---he has a wry sense of humor and he has gone largely unnoticed on these blogs where the religious take their irredeemable souls too seriously) or some fake variety of anonymouses who lend themselves well for slaughter.
Ravensfan Anon

Anon - No scolding from me. I’m too tired from trying to educate Clay like the good school marm I am. I had actually forgotten about mass cards until Clay brought them up as proof of some of heresy against the Catholic Church. I haven’t even seen one in quite some time. I’d get one for you but I don’t think I have enough money to buy your soul out of where it’s headed. Clay may mean well but sometimes it feels like I’m back in the dark ages when reading his posts.
ravensfan

No I dont believe once in purgatory always in purgatory. I dont believe in the place to begin with. The bible talks about the rich man dying and going to hell while the poor man who begged at his gate went to heaven. It doesnt say that the rich man died and failed to make it through purgatory with passing marks so he went to hell. If people believe they have a second chance then they would be less likely to refrain from sin. If there is a purification process after we die for the people who are already headed for heaven, fine. Call it whatever you want to, it isnt a second chance. I dont know about it being a sin, but I believe that it is a waste of time to pray for someone who has died. Why? Because that person is already in heaven or hell, and you arent going to make either place any better for anyone. And it is also a waste of time to pray to someone who had died and ask them for anything. Thats one of the things Christ was sent to us for. Thanks.

Clay – The Bible also talks about the age to come, Matt 12:32. I never said that Purgatory is a second chance. That’s an assumption you are making. It is entirely different than punishment for the damned. For those who find themselves in that situation there is only one outcome. If you understood both the Bible and the Catholic Church better you would realize why you statement on less likely to sin is wrong. The prayer to God isn’t for a second chance, but an appeal to lessen the purification process. The only thing which is determined at death is where you will end up. The Bible does not give any indication that it is immediate for everyone. Clay as I said before you need to stop making judgments on other denominations, especially when you do not have knowledge about them. It really makes you look like the proud one. I’m sure you mean well, but it comes off as judgmental. By the way I Bible verses you are referring to is Luke 16:19-31 I believe.

Let Clay continue--his fund of prejudices is inexhaustible. You made my day Ravensfan with your remark about my soul--I have had a smile on my face ever since I read it--I miss Robert Littel--the man is a firebrand--inimitable. I am off to go ponder if fake Anonymous is the same as Bob Sontrop is the same as Pattycakes. By the way Bob Sontrop has caught the disease called 'let's needle Robert Littel". He's written another terrible poem to achieve this goal. He doesn't realize Robert Littel is off fulfilling the terms of his contract--on deadline the man is for something or other. What a drag!
Ravensfan Anon

Satan likes to criticize Christians and make them look bad. It makes others look at Christians and look down on them, giving them an excuse to not be Christians themselves. But we have a Mediator, and that Mediator is Christ. He is One who will stick up for us. If I have criticized anyone on here it is because I feel that they are going down the wrong path. Praying for dead people is a waste of time, and it isnt going to lessen the purification process. That is up to God. Praying to dead people is also a waste of time, and someone can quote any bible passage they want, it doesnt say to do either one of those things in the bible. Thanks and God bless.

Anon - I'm glad I could brighten your day. See you don't need to lose your sense of humor to have faith either.

Clay – I’m confused. You said Satan likes to criticize Christians and make them look bad and yet you admit to criticizing them for going down the wrong path. Does that make you an agent of Satan? I’m just kidding Clay, but you should think more before you comment on others. Remember Luke 6:37-42. As I said I think you are well intentioned just misinformed.

By the way did you know that a Baptist Church in North Carolina I believe is having a book burning where the works of such heretics as Billy Graham ,Mother Teresa , The Pope , and many more will be burned along with any version of the Bible other than the King James version. I don’t recall seeing anything in the Bible, including the King James version which calls on Christians to do such things. Maybe you should save your criticism for your fellow Baptists.

http://www.amazinggracebaptistchurchkjv.com/Download99.html

I agree that Christians shouldnt do such things. Also I believe when they do that most believe that they are doing something for a lost person. I certainly dont agree with getting rid of Billy Graham's writings. That is ridiculous. When I do criticize Catholics I feel that the devil is trying to mislead them, like Chick tracts sometimes say. Of course, he is trying to mislead all of us. With some he has more success than others, and that is not a prideful thing to say. God bless.

Clay – I do believe the reason for Matt: 7:1-5 is to avoid well meaning people making the sort of errors that Church made. It’s always easier to point out someone else’s missteps then look for your own. As I’ve said a number of times I do think you mean well, however, you also don’t enough about Catholicism to be making sweeping criticisms. How would you feel about someone criticizing Baptists in general for the obvious wrong of one group being mislead themselves? Before criticizing ask yourself why you feel it’s wrong and what are you trying to accomplish? Much of your criticism of Catholics so far has been based on either misconceptions or outright falsehoods. Also ask yourself are you sure it’s satan misleading them and not satan misleading you in order to stir up discord. Are you sure your own eye is clear before you attempt to clear someone else’s? Just some food for thought.
ravensfan

"Good" point Tony, this is true indeed! We can know this was an objectively good point you raised because it is objectively good to question in order to seek truth. I would say that is a universal don't you think? If it was "wrong" to question, we would not get vary far. You don't have to be a "religious nut" to see this. The answer to the question could be "right" or "wrong". That is the real issue. When someone assumes that anyone is "good" without something (God), that already taints the question by not addressing what is "good". The real question should be "what is good" not "are we good...". The answer to this question has been the spark for wars, injustices, beliefs, religion, atheism, etc, etc since recorded history.

What I as a "believer" (Catholic) would like to point out is that once someone acknowledges that there IS an "untimate" good, which we call Yahweh, Creator, Buddha, God, etc, we can attempt to model ourselves after the practical examples in teachings, creeds, and reasoning which we put our "faith" in to lead us to live better lives on earth. This is objectively good in theory. Can we argue that? Now actual putting faith to action is what verifies and gives credit to belief. The goal being "goodness" or God.

I can assume that Ravensfan Anon is "good" without God, however I would need him to educate me on HOW and WHY he is good to make my (opinion) conclusive that it is because of an absence of God. This is objectively looking at the question. What is "good" and "evil" to an atheist? what sort of measuring stick do we use for the morality which is ever consequential to our human functioning? Ravensfan Anon, again, I would argue that the vary separation of the Christian Church is a direct result of "outside thinking" which is not objectively focused on Christ. The Catholic Churches abuses of old may have lead to the protestant reformation, which lead to this that the other thing because of a SELF-SEEKING paradigm (Why did Henry the 8th do what he did? HE WANTED new woman etc, etc, Why did the terrorist blow up the plane? so HE can have 6364518727 virgins in heaven... Why did Hitler do what he did? so HE could become powerful...etc, etc). What is Christianity about? giving ones self for others in good works for the good of that person. These aforementioned persons have not been adherent to the faith they claim to preach (Hitler was just totally out to lunch).

I will totally agree with you that the Christians must come to terms with the differences that separate them before "going out to the world" and proclaiming that "ours is the right faith".
Looking at it empathetically, I can see how comical we must look from your standpoint.

So if you were to use objective inquiry, maybe research WHAT DOES THE CHURCH TEACH and WHY. This is the only means by which to critically decipher which is the "straight and narrow". Clay, I'm sure you have good intentions and yes, I have been to a Pentecostal as well as a Baptist service. I have friends which attend these denominations. It is interesting to note that these denominations actually do promote early marriage and church "exclusiveness". I have experienced this first-hand. They are not a very welcoming bunch if you arn't "on fire" for God either.

Maybe I'm nuts but in the beginning their was just ONE Church. Today churches are now dividing and dividing as prominent individuals or families feel they have the "right" ideas and "feel-good music" to draw the masses into "their church". And for what? social status? maybe they do feel they are doing good for the Lord however objectively I do not see segregating further and further away from the One Church as accomplishing that. You have to look deeper Clay. Does the church build on a rock? Catholicism hasn't deviated from the cross. It is rooted in teaching and structure right from day one. Before Jesus went up to His folks, he had to experience the cross and this is HUGE. Without the cross there is no salvation. Before the bubbly, you have to win the Super Bowl. Denominational Christians do not seem to realize this. They are happy to be already saved but don't acknowledge the cross. It is all about the music and the emotion. Great! but is this all? What happens when the guitars stop and the clapping subsides? Sorry Clay, there is more to it buddy. If you can sincerely acknowledge the cross, then it gives credibility to the message of Christ, His instructions to His disciples, His formulation of His Church on earth through Peter down the centuries to Benedict; His leader on earth stemming from the Holy succession of popes, and lastly, the teachings which abound from the overwhelming forces of GOOD (Holy Spirit) which are at work in the one church on earth. Once you see that, it just makes sense. Thanks.

To keep it simple Rfan Anon, I do not think the dogmas of denominational Christian churches pose any threat to mainstream atheism. They are "wishy washy" and move with the tide of whatever is popular at the time. These are hardly your foe. In this respect, I don't think your bone is being picked with Clay's peeps. You know this because you can win an argument relatively easy over him because he hasn't provided much substance.

What agitates you is the Catholic Church. Just this fact, again, gives it a credibility which you would not give to another because you reluctantly see the logic and practical goodness in it's (church) teachings. I can tell because you are a smart dude and you are not mixing up Catholic and denominational issues and standpoints by accident. You are trying to overshadow the Catholic "black and white" with fellow Christianity's reformation and "confusion". Catholicism is black and white. This poses an opposition to "free thinking" that denominational Christianity may/may-not represent. I apologize that my statement here could be broad, and I take nothing away from the good that fellow Christian churches accomplish. This is not the issue. Everyone is a good person. Non-believers are good people. The issue is the fact that there is ONE original church. That's not going to sit well in everyone's comfort zone. I say to those peeps... "Do your homework". I'm not making this stuff up! The question for our Christian bro's and sis's?
"What is keeping me from being a Catholic?" You could ask Henry the 8th, Martin Luther, all the others who reformed on their reasoning too. Would it be interesting? probably.

Hello Pattycakes,
My intellectual alter ego thou art--and so is Ravensfan--I love the guy when he is humorous--when he is not he weighs like a heavy boulder on my back--as for Clay I hope he lives long and prospers for my sake--he is one of a kind.

So you say there is one church--one black--one white-- no ifs, no buts--no vacillations-- and you say this disturbs the ether in me -- even if I am an atheist. Precisely the type of thinking that has landed Islam in trouble--no reforms possible--everything perfect as is---the Prophet cannot be touched.

What Luther eliminated was corruption in the Catholic Church pattycakes. The Church fathers were jailing the common folks--tethering them to fiats and edicts and promises that they needed the church between them and God. Luther's triumph according to Protestants would be his audacious declaration that the church was, is and always will be redundant in the equation man+worship=God. If a man chooses he can fall on his knees in the middle of a jail and pray directly to God. This apparently was big revelation in those days--now you see why all of this mumbo jumbo richly deserves the contempt of the atheists--but let's not digress--staying on course Luther eliminated the Pope, a mere mortal looking to seize power--and in those days through wars no less--Machiavelli's Prince sheds much light on the debauchery and the degeneracy of the popes, and don't separate the church pattycakes from its mortal members--I call this mentality the selectivity of the religious--as soon as something reflects poorly on the church then separate the perpetrators from the church itself--invest in the church a indefinable holy ether--a disembodied spirit in suspended animation--imbue in the church an otherworldliness that cannot be questioned--a superior marriage to Jesus--a purification that has occurred in the arms of the holy ghost--thus sanctified the church cannot be tainted by the mortal activities of even the church men--what a bunch of baloney pattycakes.

Something similar to this is what Ravensfan has been hurling at me in another blog. There the churchmen have been committing suicide--statistically a small group was mentioned--then he is all over me because I wrote about this revealing to me, an atheist, that all is not well at the top of the food chain (with the clergy)--in the god world. To him the statistics is skewed, the comment from a professor on this issue is based on too small a sample--to Clay the blog about increase in the stresses and the despondency of the Christian clergy is no more than Yahoo News bias about Christianity --you see, Pattycakes the religious over the world do this--the negatives are swept under the rug as unwarranted condemnations and investigations by enemies of the church or merely sloppy statistics from poor researchers and careless commentators--but the good news is embraced with ecstasy--the church must always be invincible, sound of mind and character-- even if glaringly it isn't-- the church is a fountainhead of God, separate from the mortals who build these churches and run them--thus it is pattycakes, that you an intelligent human being have fallen prey to blind belief--you have forgotten what set the reform movements of Christianity in motion--you have forgotten the debauchery of the churchmen, the Elmer Gantrys of the Catholic church who preyed upon their hapless, witless victims with promises of eternal salvation through moneys they could ill afford--and this church you now declare is the original, the true blue--the only one with the intestinal fortitude to draw a line in the sand for God--ask its followers, which side are you on--on the side of taking a life or saving a life, on the side of abstinence and self control or sexual abandon and sin--same church pattycakes has said that it will ordain the Anglican Bishops who choose to return to the mother of them all--even they are married these bishops will be ordained--that sounds like waffling to me pattycakes--that sounds like black and white mingling to make gray--the same church pattycakes is declaring bankruptcy in Delaware--premptively to save its financial hide--that again sounds like black mixed with white--traversing into the gray territory of ethics pattycakes--and pray, what be your answer to this? Wait, Wait, don't tell as they say on public radio--I will answer for you--the church is separate from all these murky activities--the church is not complicit in any of it--the church has an immortal soul--it is married to Jesus--as the bride of Jesus the church is above reproach--you want me to buy this pattycakes--I laugh to myself that you have been bought lock stock and barrel
by this idiocy. We atheists are astounded that people like you and Clay after centuries remain good fodder for the Elmer Gantrys of this world--the rain men and the con men who promise that there is a Satan, there is a god, and you have to pick one side or the other here and now, and many of these guys-- they laugh all the way to the bank with your money and your gullibility jingling in their pockets--

That last post pattycakes was from me to you--forgot to sign off--Ravensfan Anon.

I dont think most Baptist and Pentecostal churches have trouble acknowledging the cross at all. That is the main point of those churches. My main point is to not be distracted by things that a church can add that arent in scripture, like praying to Mary. I also dont think that Baptist and Pentecostal churches stop with being saved. We are to help the poor and the community, etc., and I see these churches doing these things. They are not moving with whatever is popular when they have been doing the same things for hundreds of years. The idea of the Catholic church being the original Christian church is prideful. Who cares? If we are all Christians and follow what the bible tells us to, no one says that we have to worship exactly the same way. There are differences in Catholic churches. God shows us in the old testament how he didnt want everyone speaking the same language. Like I have said, if the Catholic church wants to throw out the rituals it adds to scripture, have more exciting sermons, get rid of all the satanic Roman stuff and stop telling people that they are being rebellious by going to other churches then I wouldnt mind going to one. You know as well as myself it wont happen. That doesnt mean that people cant change though. Thanks.

Anon – Sorry if I come off as a heavy boulder on your back. That certainly isn’t my intention. As for your comment on churchman committing suicide I don’t recall any statistical sample even being mentioned. As I recall the article it mentioned four suicides in the Carolinas in four years. Hardly a statistical sample my friend. Then a professor of psychology and neuroscience at Baylor makes the completely unsubstantiated statement that “The likelihood is that one out of every four pastors is depressed”. All I did is question why someone so ready to malign Christians for believe in what you consider fiction with nothing behind it readily accepts an opinion with even less behind it. As I said if there is hard evidence to lend credibility to what the article implied then the Church needed to address it. Instead of addressing the issue you chose instead to comment on me. What I think bothers you is you want to believe that Christianity, specifically Catholicism is in it death throes and you are willing to jump at any idea regardless of it’s validity or basis in fact Even if you were right none of that in any way invalidates the message of Christ nor does any amount of abuses the Church may have committed. I would agree they reflect on the Church itself. The trouble with most atheist is you look only at the people or the institution and not the actual message. It would be the same as if I said democracy was evil or should be eliminated because of all the injustices, slavery, treatment of Native Americans and other minorities that have occurred since the US gained independence. Sorry I can’t be humorous all the time.
ravensfan

Clay - Have you ever actually attended a Catholic Mass? If so how many Churches have you been to? If you haven't then you really shouldn't be commenting. Based on what you said I got the impression you haven't been any. You still have false impressions on the Catholic Church. Many actually are involved in ecumenical services with other Christian Churches. Our church routine does Lenten ones with other area Churches. I don't recall even hearing any Church or edict that called any Catholic rebellious for attending another Church. True it doesn't count for the Sunday obligation that's not the same as rebellious. In the end Clay you sound like the prideful one asserting that you know what's best for the Catholic Church. All denominations suffer to a degree from the problem of believing they are the one true faith, Baptists included.

I read the following about the Baptist Church. I’m not going to assert them as true about Baptists. Maybe you can clarify them for me Clay,

Baptists do not baptize a person into Christ, but rather, into the Baptist Church which is contradiction to scripture.

Baptists teach that a person is saved by prayer rather than by faith.

Baptists take the authority to change the great commission. Christ said in Mark 16:15, 16, "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Baptists teach, "he that believeth and is NOT baptized is saved already because of his faith

Baptists take Christ's place in adding to the church. The scriptures say "the LORD added to the church daily such as should be saved." (Acts 2:47). But Baptists VOTE to receive people into the church.

Clay if one wants to they could point out perceived flaws in any denomination. I’m not trying to say that your Church is somehow not a valid one or wrong simply to make you think about what may or may not be wrong in your own instead of continually passing judgment on the Catholic Church. I know you mean well, but you need to stop commenting on things you don’t know.
ravensfan

Well actually I have been to two funerals and one wedding at a Catholic church. They werent Sunday services, but I certainly learned a few things. I know and have known many Catholics and former Catholics. I wasnt saying that they call each other rebellious but rather see protestants as being so. Baptists baptize into Christ and teach that we are saved by faith. I believe that every or just about every Christian church besides the Catholic church believes that we are saved through faith and not through baptism. You can find other scripture verses "for by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves.." that dont mention being saved through baptism. That is the problem with the differences in churches. They can each point to a scripture verse that they say supports their position. When Christ said, "you must eat of My flesh and drink of My blood" did He mean just to His disciples there at the table or to all of us through the ages? Who knows? I take scripture to mostly mean that we need faith in Christ and to believe in His power through the cross and to have Him in our hearts and to spread the word to others and to help others to get to heaven. I dont like to think that we must go through any ritual. Faith to me is more important than communion or baptism. They are symbolic. They cannot replace faith, only support it. So what is more important? I also think that my church doesnt get upset if I go to a Catholic church, but what does the Catholic church say about Catholics going to others? I believe that it isnt allowed? How can someone say that isnt pride? I dont know if Baptists vote to receive people into the church or not. I am not even going to a Baptist church currently. Most churches I have attended accept one into membership if they have satisfied conditions that the main pastor puts out, and it may or may not mean taking a new members course. Thanks.

Clay – Catholic weddings and funerals vary. Sometimes they are simple services other times longer with a mass included. Before the Second Vatican Council always considered it a duty of the highest rank to seek full unity with estranged communions of fellow-Christians, and at the same time to reject what it saw as promiscuous and false union that would mean being unfaithful to or glossing over the teaching of Sacred Scripture and Tradition. But the main stress was laid on this second aspect, as exemplified in canon 1258 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law:
1. It is illicit for the faithful to assist at or participate in any way in non-Catholic religious functions.
2. For a serious reason requiring, in case of doubt, the Bishop's approval, passive or merely material presence at non-Catholic funerals, weddings and similar occasions because of holding a civil office or as a courtesy can be tolerated, provided there is no danger of perversion or scandal.
However The Second Vatican Council's document, Lumen Gentium, 8, states that the sole church of Christ as "subsists in or exists in" rather than simply "is identical with" the Catholic Church. Ssince Vatican II in the 60’s the Church has worked to reconcile where it can with other denominations. The 1983 Code of Canon Law has no longer canons who absolutely forbid cooperation of Catholic priests with clergy members of other systems of belief. The Catholic Church has no position on going to other Churches. However, they don’t credit it as fulfilling the obligation to attend Mass I believe.
While I agree that faith is the most important thing. In fact throughout the scriptures baptism and faith are interconnected. So much so that a Christ said in Mark 16:15, 16, "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” I agree with you on the problem with the differences in Churches that’s why I have advised you on judging the Catholic Church. Not in order to assert it’s primacy over the Baptist, but to get you to see that we are all better if we look at our own churches and work to better them rather than trying to point out the flaws in others. I’m a bit liberal in my view of faith I don’t believe any one denomination has a monopoly on salvation.

I agree that one denomination does not have a monopoly on salvation, thats for sure. Thats kind of my point on this universal church idea. I see it as being all denominations, not just one. Maybe it started as one church, but for whatever reason God had it branch out into many denominations, some way too far off track, such as handling snakes because of the bible passage that talks about it, or not going to the hospital for help when needed. If you look at the parking lots of these churches they tend to not have too many cars. What bugs me is the Universalist Unitarian parking lot having quite a few cars. Why? Because they let you do your own thing. That is a heresy when the bible tells us what to do. It is easy for a liberal person to not have to follow scripture when the church allows such nonsense. Its kind of like letting Hillary Clinton preach when she is pro abortion. What it boils down to is disobedience. I am happy to hear that Catholics are allowed to go to other churches, although I am sorry to hear that they are still supposed to go to mass that day. That means that the church hasnt accepted what is being offered at the other churches as being good enough, otherwise they wouldnt have that requirement. Also, most Catholics, perhaps because of past stricter requirements, have no desire to go to a church that isnt Catholic and look upon it as sort of being a traitor. What does that tell you about what Catholics say to one another about other denominations? That they are saying that other denominations dont cut the mustard when fulfilling your requirements before God, that they are too far away from what God wants us to do when worshiping. I agree that I shouldnt spend too much time criticizing other churches. However, I believe it helps people wake up to what God wants and expects of us, and that is not neccesarily what any given church is doing at any given time. Too many people are off track, including myself at times. A wholesome discussion is good for learning. I certainly have learned a lot on here. What I cant believe is that more people dont get on here and make comments. I think too many people are dead to God, and they are too satisfied with what they are currently doing in any given church. To get on here and make comments and to read comments is to perhaps learn that God isnt satisfied with what they are doing currently, and to change is more effort than staying the same. Thanks.

Clay - Well said. It is great that fellow Christians and non-believers alike can come on to these forums and swap stories and info. It is indeed a learning experience.

I have had conversations/debates well into the wee hours of the evening with fellow Christian friends over our differences and similarities. In the end, we most often "agree to disagree". However, I do believe seeds were planted in both parties and we are mutually better for it. I have learned things I did not know about fellow Christians and vice versa. Cutting through the clutter regarding the Catholics not being able to "fulfill" the Eucharistic obligation by going to a denominational service, I believe it breaks down like this:
Christians are united by Christ. We must celebrate our likeness. Each of us has "found Jesus" in one way or another. We have been raised, brought into, discovered, wandered into a particular Christian church. If what Catholics believe to be true IS actually what is true, then we have been extraordinarily gifted with the grace to RECIEVE the REAL sacrifice of Jesus in the Eucharist. This is what we MUST believe to be a Catholic. This is what our strength comes from. This is what nourishes our souls, minds and faith. The beauty transgresses what we as humans can fully comprehend. This is just it; we have FAITH that this is so. If I don't believe that this is what is available to us on earth, then why be Catholic? So once someone understands this, it's a HUGE deal. Catholics believe there is more to God's love (through teaching and tradition) then what is accepted by denominational churches. It's like a "go big or go home" or a "this is great, but there's more? awesome!!" kinda deal.

I have been to a Christian service and have felt good and have heard good sermons. Something was missing. Since Catholics believe that God was just that incredibly gracious and merciful that he offered Himself to us in EVERY Eucharistic celebration, it only makes sense to feel "empty" or without when not receiving the fullness of faith. How can we feel otherwise? Like I said I like going to these churches and sometimes I wish the Catholics would get "on fire" a little more, but beyond that, there is a monumental wealth of graces available to Christians like you and me which is only offered through the one "Universal Church" aka Roman Catholic Church. That's pretty exciting if you ask me.

Clay – The reality that Christians are separated into so many denominations is a testament to humanities flaws. If you study the Acts and Paul’s letters you will see it didn’t take long for people to start mudding up what was a simple message. I don’t think the issue with Mass is a sense that other Churches aren’t good enough. I think as the Catholic Church moves closer to meaningful dialogue with our Christian brothers of other denominations that will change. I think many Christians at times end up feeling they are a part of the true Church. Although I frequently disagree with you since I have always believed your intent was well intended. One thing I would suggest is that if you really want to understand the Catholic Church you should read something like the Catechism. It goes into detail on the official Church position on many areas. It’s amazing how many of my fellow Catholics don’t know their own faith. We all find it easier to look outward and see the flaws of others. I believe that what the meaning of Christ’s teaching on removing the log from your own eye first. I would like to see greater unity among Christians of all denominations as I believe there is far more we agree on than what we don’t agree on.

I agree that it is good to have dialogue and to experience the worship services of others. I did take communion at one of the funerals I attended and at one of the weddings (actually now that I think about it is was 2 weddings), and I didnt feel that it was improper in any way. Some Protestants didnt get up and take it, in fact most didnt, as well as some who were brought up Catholic and now have left Christ behind. I suppose we all need to set a good example as a loving Christian no matter what church we attend. Thanks.

Clay - I believe the more the different denominations understand each other the more we will see that it's really small things which divide us that that in the important things we agree. I agree we all need to set a good example as loving Christians regardless of which denomination we belong.

Sorry Ravensfan Anon - I wanted to get to your awesome points you made in that last post there. I too am quite drained today so I attempt to give it a shot. You do raise some good taking points that I believe might seem to have been "swept under the rug" by the faithful.
Luther took it upon himself to "right the wrongs" imposed by the Catholic papacy as you mentioned. I must acknowledge that he had adequate reasoning considering the "Sale of Indulgences" which was a major concern back then. I believe this is what triggered his move from the church. So let's look at what had happened: The time in which this had taken place was tumultuous. There was much that could be questioned in the church at that time by our modern standards. The pope was questionable, so Luther acted out of his place in directly opposing this pope and starting a reformation on his own account (I believe it was in the 1520's when he was excommunicated). So who was in the wrong here? The pope as we know now, was in the wrong by using the fear of hell in order to sell "indulgences". Luther could be seen as a "hero" however was he right to go directly against a holy figure (pope being the successor to Peter) in the manner he did? I mean, to what degree is this acceptable in organizational terms? Luther went ALL OUT rebellion. Separated from the "faltering" church in one swift move. Not only did he condemn the sale of indulgences (which he was right to do), he went on to attack the papacy, he got rid of solid, wholesome Christian tradition in the mass, he preached the notion of a "saved by grace ONLY" dogma which seems to ease the Christian RESPONSIBILITY to charitable works, practice of faith tradition, honoring the reality of Christ's sacrifice. You could say he used the sale of indulgences as an "out" from the Roman Church. Luther also famously became an Anti-Semite and wrote many works condemning the Jews (Is that a truly good person to follow either?). So the pope was wrong in his humanity. Was Luther right to split? I know looking at the history of the church as we "beat a dead horse deader", human nature is the fault of our condition. Was the pope looking to score a profit? most likely. We see this today as you like to mention in random parishes across the nation. So does that make the overwhelming good which has been established on earth by good popes, real theologians, real holy man and woman, good priests and practicing ordinary people who DO see the message of Jesus and DO NOT exploit the goodness of that faith, wrong? does the fault of a few condemn the extraordinary wisdom and goodness achieved over time any less credible? You say yes. That is interesting. Can you say that one pope in the history of the church who had a few "loose screws" had damned the whole operation and totally erased the intended goodness of Jesus' earthly establishment?

I would argue the plight of the modern day "revolutionary's" and reformers who "pick at" and scrutinize the miniscule amount of faults which the Catholic Church has been scandalized over in order to discredit and condemn. I am in no way avoiding the facts that they (faults) are there and I pray that the church addresses the issues it should be accountable for; I'm sure Rome has been looking into the sum of all the issues worldwide on it's plate in a timely manner. Utilizing media outlets and other means to taint the goodness which the church stands for is in itself hugely profitable. Is that making humanity better? Profiting off the losses of others? Pointing out the smallest flaw is the biggest deal when dealing with a well-intended religious organization. It is interesting that no one mentions if a satanic cult member or other "un-godly" sect commits an act of rape/murder/trickery/bankruptcy. How come? Because they stand for all that is chaotic and "anti-god" or "anti-good" (good vs evil). I suppose this is what is to be expected from these people. It's not "breaking news". Therefore, secular culture even RECOGNISES that the Catholic Church stands for all things good, and yet only reports the flaws of a few or the scandal that accompanies. Sounds pretty one-sided to me. News sells ravensfan anon. Sinse we are all inclined to do good, good news is boring. Bad news is exciting. Really, when was the last time you heard anything good about the Catholic Church? And yet they are still hear after two millennia and hundreds of "scandals" worldwide?
Sounds like we need a paradigm shift. How about acknowledging the sins of the past and beginning the healing by moving forward. Yes ravensfan anon, healing, because we are men and we need to be healed. This Catholic Church, if it truly was a farce, would have been snuffed out long ago as "Gods grace" directed towards another, more "truthful" establishment.
The fact that this establishment is built on truth, respect, honor, love, and accountability might seem ironic given the documented flaws of individuals present and past. However, it is the supernatural forces at work within the church which "mesh" wholesome, mortal workings and doctrine with the spiritual -- men under guidance of a "Holy Spirit" which have lead a succession of "truth-seekers" -- to define the parameters and understandings of these unseen forces of good within the context of the teachings of the "ultimate good": Jesus Christ. That is why the church is still there. This is where faith "comes up to bat". Catholics must have faith supported by reason. If there was overwhelming evil coming out of Rome, then it is not reasonable to follow or put my belief/faith in what is being taught. Therefore, I believe the tainted Catholic history was the workings of an "opposing force" actively inspiring men to give up the faith, "drop the ball" or self-seeking accomplishments all the name of "reform". Reform to what? A more lax, semi-structural organization separate from "communion" with the original... by disregarding fundamentally important beliefs that are the core of church doctrine. It doesn't make much sense to me to have faith in something which is "half-hearted". You could argue that this is subjective to my opinion but would you want to play a score with sheet music? or feel it out on your own by "sounding it out" and no music to read? What have you got? It wouldn't be a song. Why is this THE true church? It takes a life-long search for this truth and my journey has only begun. It seems to me I'm on the right track so far.

"...the church must always be invincible, sound of mind and character..."
- Rfan Anon

Yes, this is what the church strives for. What the men and woman here on earth have had set before them. Why be anything less?

"-- even if glaringly it isn't-- the church is a fountainhead of God, separate from the mortals who build these churches and run them."
- Ravensfan Anon

So it is "glaringly wrong" say you ravensfan anon? According to ??? CNN? NBC? Dr.Phil? the internet? the television? You need to be more specific. What would happen without media outlets Ravensfan Anon. What would happen without distractions? What you are glaring at is a direct attempt to destroy. If it wasn't, then the outlets would attempt to UNDERSTAND the motives of the abuses. Having said this, they would have noticed that it (abuse, theft, misleading) is going 100% AGAINST the teachings of the organization. They would also comment on the GOOD which is what the organization is trying to promote, and from there, bring justice to not only the individuals affected but to the WHOLE ORGANIZATION. You think only the people on the outside of the church are hurt by these abominations? That is being ignorant. No Ravensfan Anon, I wouldn't use the phrase "glaringly... anything". That is blind faith at it's finest.

Your wonderful examples of "black mixing with white" propose a worthy answer. I will admit, you have actually done quite well in answering for me.

"...the church is separate from all these murky activities--the church is not complicit in any of it--the church has an immortal soul--it is married to Jesus--as the bride of Jesus the church is above reproach."
- Rfan Anon

I will add to this though by mentioning that your language still confuses a few aspects.
When you use the word "church" here, I will agree contra your sarcasm that the Church is not separate from these activities. The church (organization) should hold full accountability. What IS separate from these "murky activities" is the "church" in a spiritual sense. The "church" in that sense IS married to (bride of Jesus as you wish) Jesus and in that sense is above reproach. In other words, you can't taint the church (in spirit) because it is by nature of Jesus. Jesus is God. God is perfection. Therefore, the church is "perfect" because of it's origin in Jesus, the church continues to work towards constant "perfection" on earth THROUGH the Holy Spirit (part of the Trinity - Father, Son, Holy Spirit). I may have lost you here but I hope you can sort of see the theology. "Church" or it's member's perfection is a variable in the earthly sense. In it's spiritual nature it is perfect because Jesus, the institutor of the church, is perfect. This is why I say that the people who commit these crimes (in the church) are theoretically not "in favor" or "tied" to church nature.

So I believe this may/may-not provide a reasonable answer to your questions. However, I think we will ultimately be back at square one, seeing as it does take a degree of "faith based in reason" in what you believe in order to see the logical sense of staying the course with one universal church. To keep in black and white, the Catholic Church has to have it's "sheep" understand "what they are being fed" in order to stay in the "flock". It also doesn't hurt if the "shepherds" know what they are all about and follow the lead of -- I will quote the great Robert Little for this one -- "The Big Sky Monster in the sky".
- I'm out for now! Peace

And I certainly never implied that there arent saved people in the Catholic church who have dedicated their lives to Christ much more than myself. I suppose it is the institution and all the authority and slow to change that bothers me more than anything. It is like a government in a sense, and that isnt good. It appears prideful, even if it isnt. The pope really should wear civilian clothes in my opinion. He needs to continue to try to get down to the street level with people, which popes have tried to do. He needs to be honest about Vatican affairs. One pope could go a long way in changing the Catholic church. It is just that the way it is all set up makes it difficult for him to do so. God bless.

Hes name was John Paul 2. Read up on him and your opinion on the papacy and the church as a whole would change dramatically. I guarentee that.

*His* name... (sorry for my atrocious spelling)

I know but now he isnt pope. I see the bureaucracy as holding change back. Maybe all Catholics should be able to vote for pope. Also, why does this church have to have one leader? Methodists dont have one leader. Baptists dont. The One Leader of course is Christ. Catholics will of course say that, and then they have a pope. It is an interference in a way between the congregation and Christ. If someone doesnt agree with what the pope did, it gets between them and Christ, perhaps. If there is no one between them and Christ (of course we should have a priest or pastor) then there isnt this problem. If I dont agree with what my pastor does or says, I can go to another church. If a Catholic doesnt agree with what the pope says, they can do the same but probably wont. Thanks.

That is just the problem Clay. You do not know what you believe. Christians going wherever they please because "one church says this... etc". The whole reason for a pope is to HAVE A LEADER ON EARTH. You need a leader Clay. It doesn't hurt that this leader on earth was appointed by CHRIST Himself. I'm sure you have heard of "Peter you are my rock..." This is precisely why there is a pope. You will say "but he is human (Peter was a human) and look at the popes who have failed the church in history".. That we acknowledge the TRUE wrongs for what they were is imperative. But I do not see, quite frankly, any "wrongs" at all with the papacy. The medieval popes "abuses" were in the context of that time in history; Those types of abuses will not happen in this day in age. The church has come through this and "righted the ship".

Nothing which this Pope Benedict has proposed has yet been questionable. Do you have any examples Clay? Is there an itch you would like to scratch? It seems as though you have a problem with loyalty or leadership. You would like to be able to skip from dogma to dogma or interpretation to interpretation without any attention to objective faith. Objective teaching has to be presented to us by a "teacher" or else you are not learning substance. You like learning about what you believe don't you Clay? Well first you have to know the fundamentals of WHAT you believe in order to expand and grow in that. Enter Peter... and now Benedict. It was instituted by Jesus. Therefore we are trusting that this mortal pope is leading us as Jesus would. He is NOT Jesus, but a representative. A tangible leader. Does Jesus teach you in a classroom in the flesh Clay? Who gives you an "outline" for living in faith? You can't just say "I believe" and be done with it. That's not objective. That's all over the place. We nourish it and learn about what we believe to become closer to Jesus. It is undeniable. You naturally become more enveloped with something the more you learn. "Personal church" is one aspect of this, but not all. I would say it is even dangerous because we are looking at it "personally" and that is according to us. Not Jesus. The "devil" loves chaos.

Questioning is good. If I have an issue with papal teaching? I take a good hard look at WHY this is so. Is it because of me? is it an issue with how I see it based on my own personal comfort or lack of it? or is it actually a moral wrong which is being proposed. Is humanity going to be in any moral or physical danger for NOT following this teaching based on what I believe? This is how Christians must analyze teachings. Because most Christians, including most Catholic's, do not even bother to KNOW or UNDERSTAND what the church teaches and why, I am not surprised you come up with such lackluster arrangements Clay. I'm absolutely sure you are comfortable with you dogmas. But Christ's teachings were not meant to make us "comfortable" or accept compromise. There is no sacrifice or truth in "picking and choosing" what I believe. That is called "convenience". Who am I to be speaking, I am a work in progress as well, I am only trying to stress that as we know, a faith with no foundation is a blind faith. Heck, if you are gonna believe in the unseen, you might as well support that by acknowledging the authority of an institution which lays out a STRUCTURED FAITH based in natural law and all things GOOD, with teachings and wisdom coming right from our Savior Himself.

Clay I'm curious what change is being held back?

To me the man who sits home with his bible and loves Christ can be a lot better off than a lot of confusion. The bible does say that we are to worship with a congregation if we can and to have a pastor as the head of that church that we are to follow. What we dont need is too many church rules and too much heirarchy. Thats when things like not eating meat on Friday's can creep into the relationship between someone and Christ. Simplify, simplify. Thanks.

Clay - That is a good starting point, but we are called by Christ to do more than just sit at home and read. I don’t disagree that all Churches, not just the Catholic Church at times appears to have too many rules. Paul’s letter to the Romans, Chapter 14 addresses how we should deal with different rules and beliefs. Humanity has always managed to complicate things more is necessary.
ravensfan