The Catholic church needs to encourage people to read their bible and pray, not to tell them exactly what to pray. The idea sounds good and subjects like this can be mentioned in adult Sunday school classes. However, Christ is One who can tell us how to pray and what to pray but why does this church feel that they have the authority to do what He does with The Lord's Prayer? Oh well, if you think that you are the original Christian church started by Peter then I guess you feel that you have to come up with something. I wonder if Constantine had a prayer for people being fed to the lions?

Clay I'd suggest you learn about the Catholic Church before making such posts. By the way my grandmother was a Baptist and the prayer book her Church used was bigger than any I'd ever seen. I'm begining to wonder if Poe's Law does apply in your case. I hope not.

Yet another unneeded intrusion by the church in our lives. Why is it that celibates believe they know what is best in the lives of everyone else?

It's things like this that show how disconnected the church truly is. Hopefully more and more people will realize how useless the church can be, and let it sink into obscurity.

For another take on it, check out: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/09/boom-boom-chika-wow-wow_amen.php

I like it, nice idea; all these prayers are 'suggestions; to guide us! Some people have ridiculed this notion as if sex was dirty; it's good that people can see that 'we' as Catholics love sex and sanctify it!

I've never seen a Baptist prayer book. Even so, it is up to us what to pray. There is nothing wrong with a church suggesting something, no matter what the denomination. Even giving someone the prayer certainly doesnt mean that the person will be farther from God. I suppose my point was that the Catholic church is seen as authority from Rome and people feel that they must do what it says. That is where the Catholic church goes wrong, and that hasnt changed since Constantine or Martin Luther. The Catholic church still sells mass cards that give you a prayer for getting someone out of pergatory, which is a non biblical creation of the Catholic church. A lady here at work isnt sure what the cost is, maybe 5 or 10 dollars. I believe that you can even send in more money than that and get other objects for various reasons? No wonder Mr Luther was complaining. He said that the Pope has no more authority than any other man to forgive people for sins, which I agree with. Why should I study the history of the Catholic church? The present is enough to make me shake my head and want to say a prayer for them, and that prayer will be to Christ, not a late mortal human. Thanks.

Clay I didn't say study the history. I said learn about the church what it says and does not say. Since you brought up Luther let me suggest do research on him as well including the Philip of Hesse controversy, and his views on the Jews. Luther raised some legitimate grievances against the conduct Catholic Church in his time. As I've said in the past the fact that there are bad messengers doesn't make the message wrong. Keep this piece of scripture in mind judge not lest ye be judged. BTW Baptists have some sort of organization structure as well do they not? In the end Clay you are speaking on a topic you are woefully ignorant about. I'd suggest you read that book I suggested on another blog.

Hi Ravensfan. There is nothing ignorant about pointing out that purgatory and praying to Mary arent in the bible. It is just a fact. There is nothing wrong with pointing out that we shouldnt pay money to a church for a prayer to get someone out of purgatory. I saw the comment made by Luther on a movie about him. There is nothing wrong with pointing out that we should stick to what the bible says and not necessarily with what any official in a church says. I am not going to argue endlessly about it. No one can show me that these practices are inspired by God or biblically correct. Bad messengers do make the message wrong because paying a church to get someone out of a place that God never mentions is satanic, and it is sanctioned by the entire heirarchy. Frankly, I wouldnt want to stand within 75 yards of someone who commands Christ to come down into a wafer in case that person gets struck by lightning, and the fact that someone may not be struck by lightning for doing so doesnt matter to me. Thanks.

Clay again I'd suggest you take the time and learn more before rushing to conclusions. Several Protestant Church's also have Communion as well. Another point to consider nowhere in the Bible is the long held Protestant practice of Sola scriptura (Scripture alone) or the extreme version “Bible Only” was ever preached by Christ or the Apostles. In fact the first Christians preached they didn't hand out copies of bible. The New Testament didn't even exist yet in written form. In fact it wasn't until the invention of the movable-type press at around 1440 that the written word was circulated in mass. Try reading this book. "A Biblical Defense for Catholicism: by Dave Armstrong. Scripture plays the major role in the Catholic Church. The concept you are suggesting is based on common misconceptions held by many Protestants regarding the Catholic Church. I’m not holding out the position that the Catholic Church is the only Church. At the same time you do yourself a great disservice by critiquing things you don’t have a clear understanding about.

Of course other churches have communion and the Catholic church does follow the bible. However it adds things to it. If God wanted these practices followed, He would have put it in His word that He allowed to be created for us to follow. What does the bible say about all scripture being inspired by God? Why would He want so many practices to be followed that arent mentioned in scripture? I dont go for it. There of course is no way that Christ and His disciples would say "bible only" when He was here to create a New Testament that He wants us to pay more attention to than the old one. Not that we dont pay attention to the 10 commandments, etc., but He was here for a new beginning. We cant follow the 10 commandments without breaking them. It is impossible. Thats why He came here. I am not going to believe in a place that we go to when we die to try to work our way or pray our way into heaven when the bible mentions going to either heaven or hell when we die. It is just wrong. No book I could ever read will change my mind, and no excuse could ever justify it. Have a good weekend.

I suggest you read 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. There are many others mainly in the OT. Like I said Clay I think yuo need to do some serious researcg my friend.

I agree with 1 Cor 3:11-15. Each one's work that we build on the foundation of Jesus Christ will become clear; whether it is good or bad it will be revealed. If anything, this passage makes me want to stay away from mass cards, etc. even more. I believe that the guy below will be revealed in the end as to all the work that he influenced here on earth. I will take the bible. Others can take the bible and the things that have been added to it. Which is more likely to be revealed as to falseness? Thanks and God bless.

To get (sort of) back on track:

OK ... here's the prayer:

"Place within us love that truly gives, tenderness that truly unites, self-offering that tells the truth and does not deceive, forgiveness that truly receives, loving physical union that welcomes Open our hearts to you, to each other and to the goodness of your will. Cover our poverty in the richness of your mercy and forgiveness. Clothe us in true dignity and take to yourself our shared aspirations, for your glory, for ever and ever.'"

I'd like to propose that (regardless of your denominational bias ... or even of whether you are even religious), this prayer evokes a healthy perceptive on physical love between committed partners....regardless of gender!

Let the firestorm begin. Just know that my sexuality (just like yours) is a gift from God.

Now there is nothing wrong with that prayer. I would add though in the end in the name of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Doesnt the bible say to do that? Thanks.

Clay try reading past verse 11 and pay particular attention to verses 13-15. They give a good indication that the Church's position on Purgatory is correct. You seemed to get stuck on verse 11.

Nothing in Church law contradicts anything in the Bible Clay. Your trouble is you are too close minded to learn the truth. That or are simply trying to stir up issues. If I wanted to I could bring up errors in Baptist doctrine. However, I'm not interested in starting a holy war. There is no perfect church they all have errors caused by human errors.

What a bunch of malarkey and Ravensfan, you in the middle of this! Get out with your scalp in tact. Clay is an honest to goodness phony---an atheist who baits Christians, tongue in cheek and middle finger in the air. He will tell you his most ridiculous literal interpretations of the Bible and he will expect you to swallow hook line and sinker, all of his gobbledygook. If you get all riled up Clay will go from peaceful to more peaceful and he will thank you one thousand times even as you fume. The man is having a jolly good time at Robert's expense. Robert has risen to every bait Clay has dangled. But unfortunately Clay also is a mighty big bore. His games are tiring, his refrains absolutely predictable and his nonsense has the nursery rhyme quality of "Baa baa black sheep!" If he is a spokesperson for Jesus and the New Testament then Jesus must be cringing in the inner recesses of heaven at Clay's excesses committed in the name of the Bible. As for Clay's deplorable spelling, he will tell you Ravensfan that God cares not a whit for spelling, only for what's in your heart--not for what's in your brain--although the brain too is God created the brain takes second place to the heart--mainly because Clay
(rightfully) has no faith in his own brain and doubting if he really possesses this organ, Clay will tell you that the brain, braininess, decent spelling and big words are not God's games--Clay plays chess with God everyday. As for all this business about praying before every act of sex, the Catholic church needs a continuous dose of cialis to clear its muddled thinking. This church would like nothing better than to sneak into every bedroom across the globe, interrupt all the sexual acts of abandon, put couples on their knees--not facing each other mind you but side by side and 6 feet apart-- and bring God into the picture as a voyeur. Women don't need to plead headaches anymore--they just need to plead that a prayer is in progress--what better way to kill the mood--and Viagra, too short acting, will have to be replaced by Levitra (much longer acting) to fight the scourge of prayer before sex--a major cause of impotence across the land--who would have ever thunk it--the Catholic Church an unwitting proponent of birth control !

I am definitely not an atheist thats for sure and I am not having fun but instead giving God's word from His scripture. I see nothing about purgatory in any passage from the bible. God bless.

Clay, you're obviously a Catholic basher since you chime in with a condescending opinion on any article about the Catholic Church that you see on this web site. But that in mind, most Christians agree that no one got into Heaven until Jesus died for our sins and opened the gates of Heaven. So where did all of the good men and women go in the mean time who died before His death? They weren't in hell, so where were they? St. Paul wrote to "stand fast to the traditions I have taught you by word or by letter." (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

I suspected Clay was a fraud for a while now. Any doubt I had a post of his on a newer thread pretty much erased any doubt I had.

Hi Steve. I am trying not to be a Catholic basher but instead someone who isnt Catholic trying to help Catholics. I left quite a few questions under the blog about Episcopal nuns leaving and going to the Catholic church. Maybe you could help answer some of them. I believe that God has always had a way of knowing who deserved heaven or hell before Christ came to die for our sins. I am not so sure that hell wasnt created when God created the universe. Even if He did have them in holding, does that mean that there is such a place now? Why would there be when Christ has died for us? The bible mentions Lazarus dying and going to heaven and the rich man dying and being in hell. It doesnt say that the rich man had a chance to work off his sins. The rich man begs Abraham to send someone to his brothers so they wont come there. Abraham says that no matter who would be sent, that if they wont listen to the Holy scripture than it wont make any difference. It sound pretty etched in stone to me. Thanks.

Steve don't waste your time on Clay. He's posing as a Baptists. I already gave him scripture passages> If you read his posts long enough you'll see he's ignorant as to Baptists beliefs anyway.

I am not posing as anyone. I have been attending a Baptist church for about a year. As I have said, I dont see anything in the passage about purgatory. Thanks.

Then Clay I guess you don't know the Bible as well as you think. BTW attending church doesn't make you a Baptist.

Sex is only dirty if you are doing it correctly. There is a reason why we evolved with the ability to enjoy it for its basest pleasures, and that was because those who enjoyed the act the most, were the ones more successful in passing on their genes, due to their enthusiastic repetition of the event. What the Catholic church doesn't understand is that we evolved other talents that cut our mortality rate and insured that more of us survived to breed, that now we face the prospect of breeding ourselves to extinction. So many making great demands on our closed ecosystem may end up making it the coffin of Humanity, or put us back into a new Stone Age, where we barely survive. We have become bright enough to complete the "be fruitful and multiply" rubbish the church still spouts, so its time the Pope had a revelation saying " God has instructed us to use our heads and enjoy the gift of pleasure and lust, without unneeded births". It would be a much better world for us all.

Hahaha, that was DUMB! promote sex, spread STD's and abortions, complicate things even more (No such thing as 100% safe sex) and then we will rise up, out of the religious ashes as a stronger, healthier, more intelligent race?? lol geeez MAN thats a beauty! let's sit back and see what happens I guess...

Robert that was a real nice tale you spun. It's pity you have no scientific evidence to support such claims. How do you explain those who commit sex crimes? I’d say that puts a whole in your theory. For that matter how do you know we humans are the only ones who enjoy sex? After that post I’d suggest you refrain from calling anyone else gullible in the future.

Ravensfan, when you talk to Robert you lose it--you meant HOLE not WHOLE---what scientific evidence do you want--there is no place to move in India or China--have you visited those countries? You want scientific evidence that the world is overrun with hordes of homosapiens? The church has indeed taken the position that sex is primarily for breeding--no contraception,no abortion reproduce like the fruit fly. You and anonymous Sept 26, 2.11 PM point out the unseemly side of sex but still the Catholic Church's stance on the matter cannot be exonerated.
Anon the failed intellectual

Anonymous - The entire message about sex, as laid out by the Catholic Church, is about maximising opportunities to produce more Catholics. Doctrine demands no sex before marriage, which means "Get married young". Once married, DO NOT USE BIRTH CONTROL, which means lots of babies and because they start young, an extended breeding period. It is also the driving reason behind their opposition to abortion, even though they will not admit it, citing sacred infusions of souls at conception for the Catholic masses, while telling their sheeple not to mention that reason when arguing the issue with heathens like me. ravensfan is right out of the mold they crammed him into as a child.

.Robert Littel - It posts like this that make atheists look like fools. You may want to see a specialist for that paranoid delusion you are having.

Robert - You have no idea what you are talking about. "Breeding more Catholics"?? That sounds like a line out of sci-fi movie. The church simply teaches to respect ALL life. Not only a Catholics life. You are saying that the church only wants Catholics to "breed" in order to overpopulate the earth and squeeze the little pockets of atheists into extinction? Give me a break man. We want everyone to respect everyone including you. Giving advice to a mother on the "easiest" way to kill a baby is not respecting anyone and only interrupts the natural course of life.

The Church holds a stance on issues such as life which reflect the NATURAL LAW of the world. It is really just logical. There is no proof that we will breed ourselves to extinction. On the contrary, we are setting up for UNDERPOPULATION (Europe is on course to not be able to replenish sustainable numbers of persons). Again, the Churches fundamental teachings are so detailed when you actually research them but it doesn't require rocket science to see that the whole idea of teaching is to "let nature take it's course". Our life, our ecosystems, our planet is, after-all precious. The millions of people living in countries such as India and China have done so constantly for decades. What is the real issue is the poverty. The gap between the "haves" and the "have-nots".

What Robert touches on being how the Catholic Church is "breeding" more Catholics solely for the purpose of "breeding more Catholics" to inhabit the earth and oppress the "non-believers" is interesting.

I dare say that it brings to mind a sort of "religious" eugenics.

Eugenics - "The study of hereditary improvement of the human race by controlled selective breeding. It is a science of applied Eugenics, negatively characterized by many because it it often used in the interest of racial "refinement" or in extreme cases, genocide."
Interesting when you consider everything the Church stands for directly opposes such ideology and concepts.

This leads to the next point which is eugenics itself in our mainstream society. The whole abortion movement along with contraceptives and "sexual education" of the "enlightenment movement" is of the worst kind of eugenic agenda. It is creeping into our society faster then people are realizing it's disastrous impact on social life and our race. So I would argue the point of how Hitler and the like used their "beliefs" via eugenics to give religion a bad name and wipe out millions is today manifesting itself in the leadership of organizations, political movements, pop-culture propaganda and the mentality of people such as Robert to essentially commit the same heinous crimes of yesteryear. How scary is that? Progressive my a**. We are actually killing babies before they are born. Yes, they are babies if you let them be. Think about that seriously.

pattycakes Robert won't let a little thing like common sense and logic interfere with his bigotry.

Ravensfan - "When people lose the Faith, the first thing that goes is common sense." Gilbert Keith Chesterton ..apostle of Common Sense.(cf. Google: "Dale Ahlquist". SEEING WITH THE EYES OF G.K.CHESTERTON . . an interview with Dale Ahlquist)

Come on Pattycakes, what do be your desire man? Tie up women who don't want to have their babies, to your bed post or to the splendid bed post of the Pope, feed them gruel and deliver their babies one by one, and if a clone of Robert turns up as a baby during one of the deliveries dunk the squalling child in holy water until it is drowned? You clearly haven't lived in India or in China. Unequal distribution of wealth you say and yet when Oabma proposes redistributing some of that ill distributed wealth, right here in the US, I don't hear too many assenting voices--if that happens you'll be the first protester to be bawling "unfair". The Catholic Church may defend all life but that doesn't mean it does not want a goodly numbers of those lives saved and protected, baptized and packaged to live as Catholics. Strengthening the Catholic Church numerically is always a goal for church elders. Don't try to skirt the issue, Pattycakes, by throwing what you think is an invincible argument.
Ravensfan Anon

Ravensfan Anon - Ok, fair enough, let's have a look at the issue(s).

"Tie up women who don't want to have their babies, to your bed post or to the splendid bed post of the Pope, feed them gruel and deliver their babies one by one, and if a clone of Robert turns up as a baby during one of the deliveries dunk the squalling child in holy water until it is drowned?"

As ridiculous as your analogy is I see your point here. First I will agree that that would be crazy. This is NOT what the church wants by any means. I acknowledge that not all births are "wanted" however, try and see passed the "firm" teaching (abortion, contraceptives being wrong) and look at the REASONING. Why can't we reason that a baby is better off not coming into an adverse situation? It sounds reasonable because then we avoid the problem of the baby being abandoned, mistreated etc etc etc. It is because we are PRESUMING based on presumptions. We presume the baby will have a hard life. But will it? We presume the mother is not ready. Is she? If these presumptions are in fact accurate, then we are dabbling in a role as a judge of "life or death" based on an "accurate" presumption (not an absolute fact). In the stock market or sports betting ring these could be considered minor issues however when dealing with a possible life (fetus) I would argue that we should not attempt to even try and rationalize the "what if's" in order to negate one "problem" evidently for another (process of abortion medically, physically, emotionally, spiritually). It is reasonable to first respect the course of events (pregnancy) and then accept the responsibility of parenthood in order to provide the BEST protection and nurturing for the baby. This is paramount. Can you argue that a birth is by nature evil or bad? All decisions following are in accordance with the FACT the baby has been born. Options such as parenthood, adoption, and the like are all natural. Consequently, these are not easy by any means, however you are now challenged to use human strength and intellect to sacrifice, love and make sound decisions which will make you a better person in the end. The church simply wants the woman to see the psychological, physical, and moral consequences of her decision. You seem to think if an abortion takes place the grass is greener afterwords. I would strongly disagree. If a baby turned out to be "Robert"? I'm sure we would love him all the same. First you must let Robert actually be born.
I will use Obama as an example: He was not brought into a perfect world was he? single mom, poverty, etc etc. Who is he now? Holy water may have had something to do with it :)

Second, the numbers game...

"The Catholic Church may defend all life but that doesn't mean it does not want a goodly numbers of those lives saved and protected, baptized and packaged to live as Catholics. Strengthening the Catholic Church numerically is always a goal for church elders. Don't try to skirt the issue, Pattycakes, by throwing what you think is an invincible argument."

I do not think the church elders would be looking at it as a numbers game. These are theologians and spiritual men not accountants and bookies. It is through the love, hope, and guidance of a solidly formed foundation which the church offers that would lead to the "numbers" you speak of. No one is being forced here. Robert likes to point out throughout history this was accomplished through force. True enough but is that the case today? No. Back then, lots of stuff was by force. It was "signs of the times". You and I would be carrying swords and shields for crying out loud. I do not condone this and the church has publicly acknowledged it's historical faults. I'm not skirting the issue. I realize this but you must realize that this is a non-issue as far as the claim it's a numbers game. You have to have look for the "good" as well as the "bad" in an organization to form your hypothesis. The church IS all about compassion and the good of all. There are bad men and woman in any organization, however this is NOT what the organization teaches and we have to strive for that good. The ideolgy of "cutting edge, secular mainstream culture" has no absolutes. It is too wishy-washy. Your on your own out there. One day these billions of ideas will clash and it wont be pretty. To sum up, if you don't believe something you will believe anything. This leads to subjective logic and reasoning and you eventually hit a big dead end which will leave you stating "I just... don't know!...".
I'm proud to believe something that strives to keep ACTUAL issues black and white and yet keep my freedom in an age where anything goes.

Just for the record I would love if Obama "redistributed the wealth" thank you. Nice try though. As long as he doesn't head for all out communism. While he's at it maybe cancel the space program and other ridiculously well funded programs for the time being until we can get the real issues on earth sorted out like getting the uber-wealthy morons in the banking farce, white house and conglomerates put behind bars who were ultimately responsible for this economic catastrophe. Maybe rebuild New Orleans and get the poor and sick back to par with the rest of us "fortunate ones". It would be nice too if we didn't have to pick up the tab for the mess they are "dining and dashing" on.