"Why Democrats ignore crime victims and take the side of rapists, robbers, and cop-killers-then stump for the right of felons to vote!"----

Annapolis just passed it a year or two ago. Sounds like Baltimore to me. The gangs of Baltimore run the streets while the Democrats are on the take.

The only losers are the hard working people of Baltimore.

LOL! What is this supposed to do, generate outrage? Palin haters will never support her anyway, so why pander to them?

Now if Palin collaborated with a certain former Weather Underground domestic terrorist then there wouldn't be an issue.

Brian sez: "Now if Palin collaborated with a certain former Weather Underground domestic terrorist then there wouldn't be an issue."
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Well, Brian, good news. Palin was big pals with Sherry Johnston, a known drug dealer (and Levi's mother). Therefore, following the infallible logic of The Quitter, Sarah Palin is a drug dealer.
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How 'bout that, Brian? Makes 'ya all warm and fuzzy, don't it?

But and article about an athiest co-author would be bigoted, because just become someone is an athiest doesn't mean they don't have important opinions about politics, right?

Good thing Rupet Murdock's ghostwriter was able to convert Sarah's stick-figure drawings into words.

Rupet Murdock is keeping this idiot alive on Faux News/GOP TV and with wingnut welfare.

Palin, who is all style and no substance is a fave among the Faux News/ The Word of Jesus/ Our Leader's Glorious Official Republican Government News Network crowd.

Palin's book publisher is HarperCollins... a wholly owned Rupert Murdock subsidiary, you 'betcha.

It was so very disappointing when the media went after Sarah. I no longer listen to CNN and many other liberal media stations, which means I will not be supporting their sponsors, ever. This country is going in the wrong direction chasing the wrong rabbit. At this pace we will soon be trying to figure out how we will survive as a nation. As soon as the world discovers we will not be able to climb out of our mess, they will devour our resources quickly at bargain prices. It will be another biblical prophesy unfolded, bringing the world closer to its destiny.

Sara Palin makes me want to throw up...and so do people who think shes Super!!

"It will be another biblical prophesy unfolded, bringing the world closer to its destiny." But Tim, isn't that what you want?

Sarah Paliin is the biggest liar I have seen in a long time. She is no more a Christian than Budha.

Its funny that a little over a year ago nobody knew who Sara Palin was. Then during the campaign we find out how stupid she is. Now people are getting into an uproar over an idiot writing a book about conspiracy theories? This is the same woman who thought Africa was a country and her idea of foreign relations is waving at Russia from her front porch.

People who proclaim 'End World' models need to be kept as far away from nuclear weapons as anyone otherwise.

One party runs on fear and caters to the poorly educated fundamentalists outside the main city centers.

One party runs on change and caters to the educated residing within the main city centers.

Am I talking about Iran or the US? You tell me.

god will save all of you!

GOP mantra-

"If YOU believe it..., it's not a lie"

SP is a joke and I love to watch the train wreck that is FOX news!

LMAO-

"Democrats in the 1990's covered up a conspiracy one expert called "the largest incidence of obstruction of justice in American history."

I guess Ms. Vincent was to young to understand the Warren Commission report on the murder of Jack Kennedy. Of course that would be as pointless as my exposing certain outright lies repeated daily by the republican heros of talk radio or McCarthyism or the absolute ambivalence of the Bush administration on sixth August 2001 as their principals were told of the exact threat and chose to play golf. Ms. Vincent lives in a glass house but is to far removed from relevance to be taken any more seriously than Ms. Palin. Not many women are so self possessed as to put the future of the nation in the hands of someone of such dubious ability just because of gender. They have so many who are so much better qualified to represent their intelligence, Palin would set them back to the dark ages.

Palin's husband also belongs to a group in Alaska that advocates seceding from the union. Her priest is also some guy from Africa who drove a witch out of town and burned her house down with the help of a mob. The lady keeps some shady company I didn't hear about until after the election.

Wow! Social Security and Medicare would never had made it in this political environment!

The media didn't go after Sarah. They just printed the truth. They also ignored some of the truth. Like when Sarah hid in the bushes outside her ex brother-in-laws house and said she heard him threaten her father. Our future gov. hiding in the bushes like a peeping tom! She was also caught doing the same thing that she turned her boss Randy Ruedrich in for. She is a work of art. The world is in the mess it is in because of the Bush administration, and the Republican controlled congress. Don't worry about any biblical prophesies. The Mayan, or Aztec calendar has already prophesied the end of the world in 2012. So take your pick of which superstition you believe in.

Doesn't anyone look far enough into the future to see what her goal is?
She wants to garner public sentiment - without having to carry the burden of her Alaskan political mishaps - so that she doesn't have anything beneath her to drag her down during a future run to be POTUS.
The only problem is however, that indeed there is nothing beneath her that would be suitable to support someone worthy of that office.

"...which the ad copy on Amazon.com promises will reveal: "

This must be a blog. The author didn't even bother to read the book to get a sense of the co-author or to see whether her claims have any validity.

Move along, just another hit n run job in the Socialist Sun.

She should title her book "Dumb and Dumber". She is dumb but, her worshipers are dumber.

The GOP, and the sheep who follow, only worship ignorance. How pathetic.

The books should have been titled, "Unfit parent, unfit State Governor, unfit VP candidate". In summary, gave up, gave in, and lost at all three. And you want her to "lead" us in something? Quitting, not taking responsiblity, and always blaming others -- those are her qualities. Actions speak louder than words. And 400 pages of words simply cannot be those of Sarah Palin, but just those of Lynn Vincent -- hate monger.

I think the message to take from this is Palin's choice of campaign style. So long as noise is generated about even slightly ambiguous topics, she can hide behind the "no one knows for sure" shield and reap the press. It sounds like her co-author is adept at the tactic.

"For all the attention paid to Palin's faith during the campaign, we don't remember her volunteering much on the subject."

Case in point. The few revealing bits of wisdom we did hear from her revealed... well, that there's not much about her worth revealing. She's all image, all hype, and trying to tap all the right symbols and buzzwords to trigger tacit support from the appropriate voter pools.

The interesting thing is that it works. Critics have nothing of substance to latch on to, and supporters have a difficult time separating the candidate from abstract associations (a vote for Palin is a vote for values, a vote for anyone else is a vote against values... whatever that means).

Pity.

The Libs were so afraid of Mrs. Palin, they went after her like the wolves and bears that live in her Great State. No, They were way worse then those fine animals. Sorry wildlife my bad. dupree

For those of you who stumble onto this blog and read the comments, I hope you take this to heart: Sarah Palin is someone to pay attention to. I believe that her publication will be a source of truth that will get into the hearts of people who don't know the truth and need to sit with the words in order to digest a perception and attitude that is contrary to how so many in our society live and think. We are on the verge of losing an entire generation. A generation growing up in school systems where life is a free for all. A pervasive mentality of so many young people is, "don't tell me how to live my life." They deflect any idea of moral character unless morlal responsibility has to do with saving the planet, as if we really have the power to do so. They reject basic biblical principles, yet desire to live in a world that knows peace. Jesus said, "peace I leave with you, my peace I give you." Sarah Palin is a voice of principle that those who don't want anyone telling them that God is the way to go, will want to tear her to shreds, which is why Jesus also said, "I send you out as sheep among wolves." He also said, "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town." Long before strategies to remove God from our nation and our schools, God knew exactly what man would choose. Sarah Palin will be a spokesperson for what is decent, honest, responsible, and trustworthy, all the while admitting that she is a sinner who needs a Savior. She will attempt to hold out a goal, a value, a perspective that a lot of those in the world will perceicve as nonsense, because they do not know God. Know the "Truth" and the "Truth" will set you free. None of us is perfect. None of us can please God, no matter what we do, because without His grace at work in our lives we profit nothing. Let God draw you to Himself. Sarah Palin will be used to open the eyes of a lot of people who would otherwise remain blind to the things of God.

So, Tim, I'm very disappointed about the outrageous and inflammatory rhetoric spouted by Fox 'news entertainers. I refuse to listen to Fox or conservative radio and am boycotting all sponsors, particularly those who sponsor Glenn Beck's obnoxious program. In my opinion, conservatives are being ginned up and used by Fox news, most of it is hate-filled rhetoric designed to incite violence. As for your doom and gloom predictions, sorry, I don't buy any of it. Take your bible and go preach to the choir over at Politico.

I hope bookstore clerks are patient. A lot of overly-excited conservatives will be buying their first book ever this holiday season.

Palin is about as opposite of "Rogue" as one can get. Her mind has no capacity for original or independent thought. She just parrots what, to her total lack of education and even native intelligence, makes sense to her. And what makes sense to her seems completely political and devoid of insight. She does not notice that she and her family are a joke. Her continuance in the public eye is pure entertainment, like "Dumb and Dumber".

Well, I expect she might support "fair and balanced" coverage, so I eagerly look forward to her next book detailing how "corporate officers take from working families to deliver millions of dollars to themselves and their Republican pals"!

Its nice to see a newspaper giving a plug for Sarah Palin's new book and at the same time, one for her co-author.

Tim said: "As soon as the world discovers we will not be able to climb out of our mess, they will devour our resources quickly at bargain prices. It will be another biblical prophesy unfolded, bringing the world closer to its destiny"

What on earth are you talking about there? If comments are going to be made, at least have a point that is relevant to the discussion. Making vague, ominous sounding and unsupported pseudo-biblical statements adds nothing to the conversation and only serves to convince others that people of faith have a screw loose somewhere.

Quit embarrassing those who practice their religions without such childish silliness. If you have a valid point, make it, support it and be willing to defend it with facts.

"It will be another biblical prophesy unfolded, bringing the world closer to its destiny."

In which case, we should rejoice, and since CNN is an essential part of the prophecy being fulfilled, we should gladly watch them. Makes about as much sense as any other 'conservative' talking point.

NOTICE TO ALL RELIGIOUS PYSCHOPATHS: To the likes of Tim and everyone like you, YOUR ARE A FRIGGIN IDIOT, PLEASE KILL YOURSELF SO HUMANITY CAN CONTINUE TO EVOLVE!

Religion, not the Democratic party, will be the main perpatrator, should the US of A crumble. Religion is nothing more than philosophy for the IDIOTS, and a craphead like Palin is proof that the Right has NOTHING left to offer the intelligent among mankind.

The only thing more preposterous than current Rightist philosophies are the IDIOT AMERICANS who actually buy into their unadulterated LIES! Pull your heads out all of you conservative ninnies, take a philosophy course, and for your stupid god's sake, get some basic reasoning skills.

This means that when one of your retards in charge makes a statement, it isn't real until you have some actual, verifiable proof.

Quoting Republican Disasters "It will be another biblical prophesy unfolded..."
Yes, because the U.S. is so important that the bible refers to us without regard for the majority of christians who live outside the US or the nations with the greatest number of christians or greatest density of christians.

As far as Palin goes, she has not appeared well spoken or educated on FOX or CNN or MSNBC. She has been treated unfairly, but her views do tend toward the far christian right and she does not have a record of negotiation. The fact that she is coauthoring with a far right journalist is to be expected.

Who cares about Sarah Palin? She looks good. Do you think if she looked like Mikulski McCain would have picked her? Get a grip if you think so.

Journalism knows that about 90% of books by politicians are ghostwritten; that they choose writers who complement their outlook is only sensible. This isn't really disquieting, it's not startling, and it for sure ain't news.

Likewise, speeches by significant public people are normally prepared by speech-writers. It's not that JFK, much less Obama, is illiterate ... think about it a moment.

This isn't some revelation, that a person who opposes abortion uses a coauthor who sees the issue the same way, is it?

Have the (liberal) media still not figured out that their insistance on reading something scurrilous into the ordinary has dramatically helped Palin's star?

Frankly, the party who comes off looking unintelligent in this ongoing indirect dialog isn't Palin, but her detractors.

Jeanne, you speak as a true "believer". Anything can be right in your world, because you believe. I think that is also called ignorance. Just another cult worshiper (excuse me I meant to say religious person).

At least 80% of Americans believe in some form of organized religion. Not all Christian of course. Anyway, what difference does it make? Its her choice, oh wait a minute its not Obama's choice is that it?

Dear Palin:

It is really a good news for the many hearts who are concerned the many churches are emptied because Jesus could not stay any more in the stinky church. See the sinking America!! that is a warning sign to wake up America. Palin's book could help many to RHINK JESUS WHO COME FROM THE HUMBLE BACKGROUND. AND SHOW TO US WHAT IS THE SOCIAL JUSTICE.WE MUST WORK HARD TO BRING BACJ THE CLEAN AND GOOD AMERICA.CSONE

You folks quoting Jesus while espousing the Republican party's worship of capitalism and love of money are a real hoot. You somehow missed the Sermon on the Mount, or the part of lying being immoral, but then again, without a moral compass, its hard to go in the right direction. Sarah is a hypocrite, a fraud and a quitter and you are her little lap dogs, how pathetic. And somehow putting her in the same discussion with Jesus, that's just sickening on the same level as watching you love the root of all evil in the name of prosperity gospel.

Absolutely amazing the utter hate and contempt the left has for this woman. You know nothing about her as a person and yet you trash her at every turn. Unbelievable.

SARAH PALIN FOR PRESIDENT in 1012! I can't think of anyone who would better show what a vacuous empty hole the Republican Party has become and give us our first unanimous Electoral College vote since Washington was elected. The vote would be all for the Democrat of course. This woman wears her sphincter muscle as a helmet and we, as a nation, should be ashamed that she got anywhere beyond election as a dog-catcher.

Need pay any attention.
Sarah Palin is a farce!

It's clear from the leftist comments on this article that Sarah Palin strikes fear into the hearts of liberals. The elitists are so far "above" the American people that they are offended by anyone who seems to hold the values the people hold. The Progressive Movement is a sham that should have gone out with Prohibition, but seems to be hanging on -- rule by "experts" instead of leadership under the Constitution. The elections of 2010 will shock them, and 2012 even more so. People are sick of Obama and liberal failures.

JohnnyPavo & other Tim-critics,

Ya know, of course, the Bill of Rights, Article 1, aka The First Amendment ... isn't firstly about Freedom of Speech, but religion.

Wacko, fruitloop, psychopathic religion is the Foremost of all the guarantees we have, point blank, end of story.

You are going nowhere in a big hurry, thinking you will shout down & chase off people like Tim. In fact, persecuting him will strengthen him.

Tim's prose may not be as eloquent as that of Palin's highly paid ghostwriter, but he is just acting on the principles & guidance in the Book he has adopted ... and as a practitioner of religion, he is on more-solid ground than all the others here practicing Free Speech.

You're going to have to accept the expression of religion, so long as you hope to have the benefit of Freedom of Speech ... of the Press, and Assembly.

Because Religion in fact comes first.

akcoyote,

You say "Absolutely amazing the utter hate and contempt the left has for this woman. You know nothing about her as a person and yet you trash her at every turn. Unbelievable."

You must be somehow oblivious to the hatred, racism, bigotry, lies and other immoral activities by the Right. Preachers calling for Obama's death, your leaders like Limbaugh calling for segregation and speaking in despicable terms about minorities, etc. Then you pull out the Christian card and all is well. How pathetic!

Scary that any human being would take Sarah Palin seriously. Peasants that do make a good case for denying idiots the right to vote.

@ akcoyote: This birdbrain exposed herself for what she is, and the "media" didn't trash her. She did a damned good job of trashing herself. Whether it's her whackjob, white trash church, her slut of a daughter, her complete ignorance of world affairs, her utter lack of government experience, this woman is a nothing. She evinces no leadership skills or even simple competence. These wingnuts think their voting for "values." People with values like Ted Haggard, Tom DeLay, Mark Sanford, and everyone else who uses Jesus for their own ends, just like Palin does. She's dumber than a bag of hammers, and you don't have to be a liberal to fear her- just educated.

Governor Palin is the kindest, bravest, warmest most wonderful human being I have ever known in my life. She will certainly win the presidency in 2012 if she only gets the support of GOP elite for the Republican nomination.

Liberals Declare Freedom "UNFAIR."

I love that Sara Palin in the best the Republican's can do in 2012.
Its nice to know that the fantastic president we have now will be around until at leats 2016.
Palin is so transparently stupid, and American's are just too smart for her Mickey Mouse Show Take two.

I just love Sarah Palin. She is the Democratic party's greatest asset. If it weren't for her, Barack Obama would not now be president. Thank you Sarah! You go, girl!

Jeanne: You should be very happy that the laws under the old testament are not in effect these days when you prophesy such as you did below. Remember, the prophets were stoned to death if their prophesies did not come true.
Jeanne says.....
"Sarah Palin will be a spokesperson for what is decent, honest, responsible, and trustworthy, all the while admitting that she is a sinner who needs a Savior. She will attempt to hold out a goal, a value, a perspective that a lot of those in the world will perceicve as nonsense, because they do not know God."

I'm not a particularly religious person, but given everything that's happened over the past years I hope there is a god, because George Bush and all his nutjob loyalists would go straight to hell for what they've done.

It is painful as a Christian who actually believes we should practice what Christ taught to see all these deplorable and usually misspelled words from those who use His name in vain by twisting the Bible into something unrecognizable.

Shame on any of you who support the kind of hate, deceit and outright lies that the majority of the Republican Party has shown over this last year.

Bush and Cronies, Inc. are responsible for the mess we are in and most of you still worship them rather than follow Christ's teachings.

@Ted Clayton: Your point is empty.

The first amendment does not protect religion from criticism. Nor does it give belief in the supernatural any special status relative to non-belief in the supernatural.

I should not waste my words to tell those terrible bigoted anti Palin people that they are just somehow jealous of her because she speaks the truth and although not perfect she is far superior to any public official we currently have in Washington. Can't wait to read her book. It's on my christmas list.

Anyone who trash talks presidents like F.D.R and J.F.K. ought to learn to not publish books. From a historical standpoint, they did more for America than Palin ever has or could do.

I feel sorry for whoever reads that book or Palin's book. Obviously it'll be extremely biased and based around Republican/Uber Conservative Christian views and full of hypocrisy.

And I hope that Palin does not become elected, not because I think she's the most horrible person in the world but she is obviously unfit to govern the country with the extreme biases and stupidity she has show. She needs to learn tolerance.

If she, or someone similar, is elected, I'm leaving this country on a more permenate basis than I have planned.

Sarah Pailin could not push a smooth rock down a steep hill, and she will never, ever, ever hold national office of any sort, ever.

The main reason liberals/dems hate Palin so much is because she did not abort her child who was born with Downs Syndrome. That is exactly why the hatred is so prominent in these posts. Come on you liberals, admit it. You think she should have killed that kid. You would have!!

"Christian co-author" as if this is a bad thing? Luciferians and New age occult channeling spirits love Obama & the Democratic Party...it's well documented (see link to blog). Palin's book should be a hit. Not only that, after Israel bombs Iran & gas prices skyrocket & we enter a resulting depression from our continued recession where Obama's stimulus never worked, people will wish Palin was VP while they are in line for food & unemployment benefits & food stamps. Palin probably would have convinced McCain to drill for ANWR oil. That said, I do prefer guys like Pence for President in 2012 if there's still a country left.

what about Obama's Terrorist co-author

I look forward to the blistering Sarah Palin will take if she does decide to run for president. Guess what - it won't come from the Democrats. Her own party will serve her up on a platter during the primaries.

As for the book - 400 pages of ... of... hmmm... I can't possibly imagine her life in 400 pages. What will she talk about? Her high school basketball team, her six years in college, getting to be mayor of a very small city and hiring a lobbyist to bring in millions of federal dollars to that city, getting to be governor by charming people with her dismissal of facts and statistics in debate, getting to be in the spotlight as VP candidate and continuously showing how little she knows, getting to blame everyone else for losing... hmmm I guess that could be stretched out to 400 pages.

Hey you fiscally responsible conservatives, I got one word for you: LIBRARY. The book will be free there.

Palindrome as GOP candidate in 2012?

Pure joy for Democrats--I can't believe a major party could be so foolish, but who knows? Almost every moderate has been pushed out: Nixon would be called a Socialist by these yahoos, and Lincoln painted as Hitler.

On the other hand, she'd quit the moment she was offered a bigger paycheck--that's why she's an ex-governor, and that's what this book is all about.

The mention of "Palin" sure brings out the lefty wackadoodles...

LOL. Sarah's book, "Going Rogue: An American Life" is already #1 best seller at Barnes and Noble and #2 at Amazon. (we have pre-ordered three copies from B&N) It is said all the 1.5 million copies will be sold before publication and make it the the #1 best seller even before release date.
Know this is driving all you lefties, the Fringe Media and Dead tree Rags apoplectic and near insane. Some of you are now screaming from the roof tops, how in the hell can a nobody like Sarah Palin have a best seller in just one day after being announced, when it hasn't even been released.

I love the sound of liberal socialist heads exploding.

That's right, akcoins. The media released the attack dogs to get the "truth" about Sarah Palin. Other than sometimes with Fox, the rest of the MSM doesn't have a clue what the truth is. It does, however, seem to get in the way of their so-called "reporting". The "problem" with Palin is that the average Lefty in what's left in America doesn't know decency and uprightness anymore. "Those kinds" of people are considered suspect and need to be denegrated. Very sad. Good posting, Tim. (Not Tim Miltz, however.)

I messed-up my previous posting trying to correct a word. Sorry. Oh, by the way, folks: lots of chatter here about how "unqualified" Palin is. Question: what are President Zippy's qualifications? Anyone? Don't even mention the Senate. 141 "present" votes don't make a qualification. Community organizer is not a qualification, either. What else? Anything? Anyone? Try to answer my question without going after Palin. Go ahead. I'm waiting.

The historical thread here goes back to two competing philosophies in our history: 1) that "men" should have the right to own other human beings, slavery being fundamental to Capitalism, and 2) to the contrary, that such a view debased our country forever more.

"Forever more" is now.

Plantation-owner Capitalists almost prevailed in the defining fight of our country's history, the Civil War, by successfully turning poor, white Southerners against their own self interests. It was so easy. The equivalent of today's trailer trash already had such low self esteem that they were over-eager for someone to look down on, someone to hang from a tree.

Sarah Palin and the Christian Right are the ideological descendants of the poor whites of that very long era long ago. The elite of the Republic Party, and their uber-Capitalist corporate buddies are ideologically aligned with the plantation owners of that time.

The guiding principle of the Capitalist descendants of the Old South? The way to succeed is to finagle a way to get somebody else -- as many "somebody elses" as possible, actually -- to do your dirty work for nothing, or in today's parlance, for mere pennies on the dollar.

And the elite are still all too happy to have poor white trash, "religious" extremists, all comers in this new day, carry their banner. They chuckle about it, believe me, over a good cigar or game of golf. And they giggle with delight all the way to the bank

Sure, it's unethical, but through the fanning of deap-seated irrational fears seeded in the plantation South, through sleight-of-hand in the age of global media (flipping your opponents' arguments upside down and throwing them back in their face when your own arguments are thin or nonexistent, repeating lies ad nauseum when facts do not bear you out, etc.), through misuse of religion and other underhanded ploys, people with fundamentally low self esteem can be mindlessly lured into gnashing their teeth, beating their breasts, and frothing at the mouth -- putting on a veritable media show -- all the while advancing the cause of the Republic Party under the guise that they too, minions that they are, are elite. They like that.

We may have fought the Civil War, but the essence of slavery lives. It has morphed, all in the interests of Capitalism, you know.

The way to live the life of a king is to get others to do your bidding for nothing -- or at most for mere trinkets.

Sarah Palin is a pawn. She will be chewed up and spit out in due time.

I pray Obama has the strength of character to resist the vile concoction that is being spewed from the mouth of the Republic Party and that he too will not be drawn into the spittoon.

Capitalism, Communism, Socialism? None are inherently bad in theory, but only in the hands of humankind do they become so.

At least she's honest enough to inform us a co-author assisted with the writing of her book. Unlike Obama who had Bill Ayers write his book and then take credit for it. Thank God we have such a fine American patriot on the national political scene. Go Sarah!

I find all these comments very interesting. Mrs. Palin is "nuts" because she is a Christian; No, she is ... (fill in the blanks.) No one mentions why she fills a stadium with 20K folks -- could it be that they agree with her thoughts. I also find it interesting that the great hero's of the left (JFK

I am creeped out by all the hatred directed at Sarah Palin here. Many posters confuse SNL skits with reality, bring up random issues that have nothing to do with Sarah Palin, and generally sound like a bunch of sick bigots.

Sarah is a young, inexperienced politician who did some good stuff in cleaning up corruption in AK and getting a gas pipeline approved. She's too inexperienced to be president but, then again, she wasn't nominated for that job.

And now we're finding out what having a young, inexperienced president is like.

I live in the Mat Su Valley with Sarah and have known her for years. What makes me so disheartened as a believer is that she is being (and was during the campaign) marketed in the Lower '48 in a way that in NO WAY has any connection with reality.

Those of us who are believers here in Alaska just shake our heads in collective shame and fear that she may actually attain what she so desperately grasps: 1600 Penn Ave.

Lord help us. Sarah is frightening to me b/c she seemingly has little or no functioning conscience. She has repeatedly sold our her children's best interests to advance herself. Not her ideas - since she doesn't really have any except to say whatever she thinks will fly best with the populous at any given moment.

She should have graciously bowed out of running for gov in the spring of 05 when Track and a couple friends cut the brake lines to a number of school buses - but no. She should have graciously declined McCain's Hail Mary offer since Bristol was pregnant, unmarried and a 17 year old - and the Alaskan press, though they knew of this, kept it quiet. But no. She shouldn't have flown while leaking amniotic fluid and in labor from Texas to Alaska via Seattle when she, at age 43 was pregnant with Trig who she went into labor with a month early and she knew he was a Down's baby. But no. Sarah wanted to be the star of the little show in Dallas and deliver the keynote.

Her son needed her to focus on delivering him.

In Sarah's world, there is one consideration and one only: Sarah.

Please, fellow believers in the Lower '48, WAKE UP. This brings so much shame on the church and the message of hope, healing and truth God has entrusted us to deliver. If I hear one more misguided, deceived Christian leader ask us to pray and fast for "America's own beseiged Esther," I don't know. God help us to wake up and see this woman for who she really is. She ain't no Queen Esther. Esther lived to serve others. Sarah lives to see others serve her.

If she, or someone similar, is elected, I'm leaving this country on a more permenate basis than I have planned.>>

Cuba and North Korea await you.

And sorry you never learned to spell. Your teacher must have belonged to the NEA.

That Palin went to a christian writer to ghostwrite her book says to me that she has like values. That Obama use Bill Ayers to ghostwrite his books tells me the same thing.

President in 2012? Can't do any worse that what we have going for us now and a woman's view is always better than a mans... ask my wife, she'll tell you.

Dupree has is right! The radical left is out to destroy Sarah Palin because they are desperately afraid of the power she has. If you care to check, look up all the wonderful things she did for Alaska...I think the hate-filled blogs only demonstrate the fear from the left. Always remember: God is in control and He will prevail!

Nothing wrong with a Christian co author. However, Sarah Palin is a flake who hurts the GOP. She shouldnt have resigned her office as governor to run for president because she isnt going to win anyway. The best she could do is to have some position in the next administration. And not Secretary of State.

Actually Clay I really don't see any useful position she could serve. Her experience is too limited and many of her opinions are too far to the right. The only reason she even get’s the attention she does is because McCain made the mistake of selecting her as a running mate. Depending on how the President fairs over the remainder of his term I could see her a token Republican candidate to lose to Obama in his re-election bid. Much like Modale was for Regan or Dole was when Clinton ran for re-election.

The Democraps of the Democrap Party took Sarah Palin to court 16 times. Sarah Palin won all 16 cases against the corrupt, criminal Democrap Party that has tried to destroy her. Now, what's that you corrupt, lying Democraps said about Sarah Palin?

I take offense to those who think that conservatives are uneducated. I am a conservative, have a Bachelors Degree and read extensively. I go to church every Sunday and stand up for the principles I hold dear. The liberals are out of control and spinning our county out of control. We will all lose our freedom if we continue in this direction. The Democrats and Republicans need to clean house. When you throw out the moral compass, you will lose direction.

It's fun watching the big-government extremist commentors (on the left and on the right) bashing each other over their respective pet "issues" when in reality, the bottom-line issue that is common to both sides is that each side covets obtaining the reins of power of a large Federal Government so as to be able to impose their beliefs by force on the rest of us.

Those who aren't interested in power, but instead the good of America and continued freedom for her people, will evidence that by advocating and working toward downsizing the Federal Government - tying it down - and making it conform to the limits placed on it by the Constitution.

Such people are classical liberals (now known as 'conservatives') - and are the only ones worthy of holding any political office in America - from dog-catcher to president.

We must stop all extremist tyrannical mentalities (on the right and on the left) from being able to obtain the reins of power.

If Sarah Palin can show me a credible plan for downsizing the government, I will vote for her.

That is the essential thing.

Stop arguing about non-essentials.

Well, I guess she is proving she didn't just "give up" her seat as Governor of AK for the people. She once again was thinking about herself, Sarah Palin, and the money she was missing out on. That's nice for the people of AK. You can only imagine how it would've gone as her being VP. That book was quick. She not only traded the people of AK for money$$, but spent her time in office writing a book. nice.....

I love Sarah Palin....she could draw bigger crowds than Obama because she represents honesty, hardwork, and goodness.
Rob Epperly / author
Sons of Thunder. get it now

Oh, good. A brain trust.

Most people, even women, would really rather see a man for president.

Palin puts fear in the hearts of liberals. Why else would they care to post. Fear makes you write stupid things for all to see. Keep it up, show you're scared of the bogeyman!

Jeanne, the vast majority of your post (except for the Sarah Palin bits) reads like it could have been written during the '60s. Have you shared that message with any of the baby-boomers in your life?

The thing that I don't understand is this: why do we elevate politics and politicians to the level of religious figures in this country? I worship God--not Palin, or Obama--and it frustrates me when my fellow Christians place loyalty to any human being above loyalty to God. Or equate loyalty to a certain human being as equivalent to loyalty to God. I don't consider Palin to be a messenger from God anymore than I consider Obama to be such. Please cease with giving mere mortals more power/recognition than they deserve--because it ultimately denies God divinity and respect due to Him.

Lynn W - You have just detailed for us, the definition of someone who can be easily manipulated by the side that can generate the most fear, the simplest emotions (patriotism, family values, etc.) and the simplest fixes to problems that face us, while denying other salient problems (like global warming, 45,000 people per year dying in the current health care scheme) all in an effort to distract you while they exercise complete control every aspect of your life, while they rob you blind. They don't let petty things like The Constitution stand in their way, they use it against you. They buy your elected, so called, leaders and make most of the decisions that affect the country in little conclaves in the Adirondack Mountains (or other cloistered resort settings) , of ultra-wealthy interests presided over by a former vice president who should be behind bars instead.

You are the meat in the sandwich that is the country they believe they personally own, and considering that about 4000 of them actually do own 1/2 of all the wealth in the country, they do in a financial sense. What they have been striving to do is own the hearts and minds of as many people they can (the merely rich) whom have been bought off at bargain prices and have the majority become as disinterested in what they are doing, as you seem to be. You are the sheeple they have been so deeply involved in creating, who sit in the middle of the insanity they allow on the Right side of the equation, to be the buffer between them and those of us doing the job you should be doing, opposing their out and out takeover. We are labeled as the "radical left" when in fact we are all that stands between our becoming a total corporatist state (almost accomplished now) and a reassertion of the ideals of our flawed but (for their time) well meaning founders. Time for you to wake up.

Wow Robert and here I thought your only problem was unblinking loyalty to atheist dogma. After reading that bunch of malarkey you spewed I guess I was wrong and you have far bigger issues. You seemingly have bought in hook line and sinker to the extreme paranoia of the radical left. Not be confused with the Limbaugh, Beck & Palin supporters who are generating their own brand of radical paranoia from the far right. I’d suggest all of you take a deep breath and a valium if needed and joining the rest of us in the middle.

ravensfan - I play with you for entertainment in the Superstition Blog. You do not have what it takes there to duel with me, and I assure you, you are ill equipped to challenge me here also. I have several degrees in Political, Anthropological, Sociological areas, with a considerable amount of Economics under my belt. My hobby is Political and Social Theory and trolls like you are not worth the time it would take to humiliate you.

ravensfan - I wondered how you had drifted over to a political blog, but it looks like the political has leaked into the superstition blog, which explains your presence. You are just as efficacious in both fields, but that isn't giving you much, as delusion seems to cross that line in your mind with ease.

those woman just needs to disappear for the good of all mankind and animals alike!!!

sure are a lot of liberal haters on here...LOL...wow they are frightened of Sarah or they wouldn't trying so hard to demean her....good thing she is on God's side so back off!
if she wasn't such a threat to your liberal Commie agenda you would yawn and walk away...all your hatred spewing means she is right on track with REAL Americans, away with you freedom hating Communists!!!...go to a Communist country...I bet Iran would take you in!

The teachings of Jesus and American politics don't mix. It is to the advantage of the real power brokers in this country, namely the big banks and corporations to divide the American people over moral issues of faith.

Robert - Instead of discussing or debating you're resorting to boasting of your intellect. In both posts you actually said NOTHING of any value. All you did was make an empty threat about humiliating me. Was that supposed to scare me, big bad Robert and all his degrees? About all it accomplished was giving me a good morning laugh. Since you have no idea of mine or anyone else’s education to even say such a thing just shows how childish and insecure you really are. I’m not about to get into a “who has more degrees or knowledge” argument with you. I stopped using that childish logic when I grew up. Maybe you should grow up and discuss things like an adult. Since you’ve never actually made a rational, logical case for anything you’ve ever posted the only one humiliating themselves is you my friend. Have you ever heard of Prabhat Ranjan Sarkar? He authored something called the “The law of the world” I’m sure someone as learned as you must have heard it before. I happened to think of it when I read your post.

“This is the law of the world: that those who possess sufficient intellect say that they have none, but those who have none boast that they have a great deal.”

Think about it before you doing your usual empty dismissal.

ravensfan - Although laborious, it is relatively easy to show that someone who believes in invisible, unsubstantiatable god creatures and that we are better served by the corporations dishing up trash like Sarah Palin as prospective leaders, are just bloviating idiots. My response to your foolishness becomes a question of economies of scale. Is it worth the effort to lay out the already obvious (to anyone with rational thought processes) flaws and inconsistencies in your world view, when in the end, you will turn it into a sham akin to playing chess with a pigeon. In that game, the pigeon (you), knocks over all the pieces, craps on the board and then flies home to the flock to declare victory. It may impress the other pigeons, but it fools no one who already knows you are playing a stupid game. That you seem to think you deserve some kind of respectful response to your inanity, when you will only fall back on your mound of misconceptions and delusions as if they represented anything worthy of respect, only accentuates the futility of trying to teach a pigeon something like how to speak Latin, pointless. The best we can hope for is to continue to point out when you say something stupid (a full time job already) so that other impressionable minds won't be easily won over to the absurdities you represent with your pat simplistic Right-wing answers and make-believe deities.

Well Robert as usual you write a lot of words but say nothing meaningful or intelligent. I guess empty vessels do make the most sound. You even brought out your pigeon analogy for at least the third time I think. Is that the only one you have? I would have thought someone as educated as you would have a far more at their disposal. If I humor you for a second and accept that I’m the pigeon you never put the board or any pieces out so there would have been nothing for me to knock over. I won because you never showed up.

Only someone completely arrogant and lacking intellect would suggest state that another’s view deserves no respect. You don’t have to agree to show respect. Your problem is you can’t really defend what you say so the only thing you can do when someone challenges your radical views is to belittle and insult in the hopes of making them feel inferior and concede to you. Sorry to tell you Robert, but the only real way to do that present a better argument for your case. Something you have shown time after time that you lack the ability to do.

Had you bothered to look and read before you responded you would have noticed my post from 9:54AM on the 30th where I said I saw no useful government position for Palin and that her views were too far to the right. You are a true bigot in every sense of the word.

Rob Littel - You sound as if you were sitting in a large, adequately cushioned chair, playing World of Warcraft on a large computer, eating cheese nips non-stop and only getting up to tinkle or fry insects with a magnifying glass lol. Anyone with half the intellect this guy claims to have should be ripping guys apart on here! especially for the amount of time he spends here lol! Degrees like heck!

squirm!!! ravensfan! squirm!!!

Ok, ok, I know us scientist/philosopher/erudite types freak the hell out of people with average intelligence, because you're secretly afraid that we're judging you as our lessors.

This couldn't be farther from the truth! What I am truly mortified about America today is that everything is turning into just a popularity contest, which any good looking idiot can win with a calculated presentation that cannot be resisted by the dumber folks in our country. And oh yes, stupid people outnumber intellectuals 200 to 1!

Forget about my liberalism for just a second, and consider this. When people pay for a food service, they almost always get what they ordered, unless there is shortage, or the food server might have retrieved someone else's food. Aside from this, you always get what you pay for, and what you wanted.

Leadership is nothing more than another service, that civilized democratic peoples have the collective ability to pick, up to a certain point. Americans, especially conservative religious types, think leadership is sharing your belief system with the person you desire for leadership. There is definitely a reason every voter should do this, but it certainly shouldn't be their deciding factor. For the Christian far Right, this is the only thing that matters!

Intelligent, liberal peoples simply want someone with exceptional leadership qualities. IQ, emotional intelligence, higher education, secular motivation, worldliness, and overall work experience are but a few areas that should be far more important to YOU IDIOTS!

Instead of voting for your next president because he lies about the reality of your taxation, because he hates fags and lesbians as much as you, or because you consider her your kind of MILF, vote for mental qualities 1st, physcial qualities second. And ask yourself this: "Do I want someone super intelligent taking care of me, or do I want someone super interested in herself alone taking care of me.

Oh who am I kidding, once an IDIOT, always an IDIOT. But honestly Republicans, could you just please find someone who is atrractive in the brain too? You got to have at least one. And if you really can't locate such a person, which is more than possible, I think it's time to breath new life into US eugenics...

Hi Johnny. I dont know anyone in my church who votes because they hate homosexuals, etc. They vote because they are attempting to be obedient to God. If God says homosexuality is wrong, why would a loyal Christian be for gay marriage? Most people vote because someone looks good on tv and they think maybe that the person will put more money in their wallet. Isnt that what happened last election? I dont see liberals as being any more interested in the intelligence of the candidate than anyone else. And yes, there are smart people in the GOP. One of the main problems is that we need another major party in this country. Now it is either one way or the other. There needs to be more of a middle ground. I dont think Palin will ever hold a major office other than what she already gave up. Like I said, most people dont want a woman as president, and that includes women. I think Mr. Romney has a good chance. Remember, God isnt impressed with intelligence. He is more concerned with what is in our hearts. Some intelligent people can be quite snobby and lack people skills. Thanks.

Johnny the problem with your idea is that you are only looking in one direction. I’ll agree there are those on the far right who fit your analysis. I hesitate to call them Christian because many of them don’t conduct themselves as Christian. However, some of who you called liberal scientist/philosopher/erudite types are also a problem. Usually because they are not as intelligent as they think, and they tend to dismiss any and all ideas from the other that their own. My friend Robert is a classic example of such narrow minded thinking from the left. I’m not trying to validate the stupidity of which far right is guilty. I’m simply trying to make the point that the insanity isn’t limited to conservatives.

Sarah Palin is indeed inexperienced and I do not think like the rest of the rational world that she would make a president. HOWEVER, I admire her for incorporating her conscience into the office which she has chosen. Is she intelligent? is she political? maybe or maybe not. Case closed.

The reality is that we voted for an INTELLIGENT, good-looking, "popular", first Afro-American president whom I don't think we can trust as far as we can throw a stick. Look at the poles not even a year after his inception. I say this because of his "separation of church and state" mentality. I know this is how politics work but consider this; Do you really trust someone who will tell the masses what they want to hear? use general language when addressing congress and the media in an attempt to "sugar coat" what the true agenda is? He claims to be Christian, but by definition Christianity isn't COMPLACENT on "hot button" issues. You don't HATE "GAYS" just because you are against them being married! matter of fact I have gay buddies who are awesome people...gay marriage doesn't make sense biologically (my buddies agree strangely enough) or socially and this is all a pop-culture sham quite frankly!

Obama who would be a man of the people, doesn't hold true to his own beliefs (which we shouldn't condemn him for), but wouldn't you want someone who "walks the walk?" and "practices what he preaches?"... If he compromises on his faith?? what else will this man compromise on???

Now I'm confused. Is the last post by Anonymous, or another one by ravensfan (which it sounds like) under Anonymous' name again?

Robert - it's not me this time. I stopped reading that post after the "admire Palin for incorporating her conscience into the office which she has chosen" comment.

The problem is you still lump me with the hard core religious fanatics.

JohnnyPavo @7:29pm,

This is a more credible pass at an 'issues-synthesis', but it still leans too heavily on a (ficticious) dicotomy: we're either liberals, or we're conservative; enemies or allies. Naw..

Actually, we all know that independents are the constituency that all campaigns must struggle to attract these days, that the side that is less-obnoxious to Indies wins, and that Indie-orientation & behavior becomes stronger & more-determinative with each election-cycle, and has for many years now.

Parsing the scene as good liberals versus bummer conservatives relies on a grammar that is by now plainly broken.

Run your thesis by us again, JohnnyPavo, acknowledging the Indie-gorilla in the room. ;-)

ravensfan - The difference between you and say, somebody like clay, is nebulous, like the difference between light beer and ultra-light beer, they both suck, it is just a matter of degrees.

Robert, The Anonymous you speak of ain't Ravensfan-- neither is the Anonymous me-- Ravensfan's bugaboo--the Anonymous you speak of is the latest to spring up in these blogs--inimitable to say the least--in the hands of this mighty Anonymous POLL has turned to POLE--I would call this Anonymous gibberish Anonymous--he or she sounds like Sarah Palin after a bad night of wolf hunting. By the way Robert I think you and Ravensfan should meet in a dark tavern, shake hands and draw the curtain on your wild feud. Ravensfan needs your acceptance.

Robert again you show you bigotry and arrogance. The fact that you can’t make an intelligent response, but instead need to mock simply shows how weak your position really is. Hardly the kind of comments one would expect from someone who claims to be as educated as you do. As for your analogy it’s as inaccurate as everything else you spew. It’s actually thought processes like your post and not religion that is the true cause of all the suffering and injustice you rant on and on about. You are simply too blind by hate and rage to see it.

ravensfan - If you keep repeating the above assertion enough, maybe even you will start to believe it. That's how you were programmed to believe so much based on so little, in the first place. You have done you duty as defender of the absurd, just stop trying to sell that pile to me, I ain't buying it. Believe whatever you wish, as long as it doesn't negatively impact those who don't share your narrow parochial attitudes, like the women you would feel comfortable forcing to breed, among others.

Robert – I’m so glad you are ok with me exercising my Constitutional right to believe what I wish. I wasn’t aware I needed your blessing to do it. Silly me I thought the Constitution alone was enough. If you actually opened your mind you would realize that my beliefs have quite a bit behind them. You discounting the sources doesn’t invalidate them. Don’t worry I know your mind is closed tight. I won’t try and open it. Considering how often you repeat the same tired illogical rants I’d suggest you worry about what your own responses. I’ve actually used many different arguments and raised numerous questions NONE of which you ever responded to with a rational and logical argument or answer. You just repeated the same arrogant gibberish about your opinion being the obvious reality for any rational intelligent person therefore requiring no justification or support other than your statement it was so. That and your “I don’t know” response used more times than I can count. If you could put your bigotry aside and think rationally you’d recall that on many occasions I’ve already stated that what you believe or disbelieve is your right. That childish breeding comment makes you sound simple minded. We’ve already had that discussion and I’ve already debunked that weak argument. Try coming up with a new one.

ravensfan - At least Clay has the common sense to stay down after being smacked to the ground (eventually). You're like the EverReady idiot that just keeps on going. Just a testament to the power of ignorance, I guess. The only comment I have made and continue to make, is that you cannot prove an absurdity using rational or logical thought. Eventually you have to resort to the crutch called faith, the proof of NOTHING.

Robert – Well at least you tried a slightly different approach. Now instead of answering questions you’ve decided to declare yourself the victor. Now you’re using the popular strategy of someone caught in a losing battle. Does that mean you’re taking your ball and going home too? I’m not out to prove God’s existence to you. As I’ve said many times already. If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence presented can be rationalized or explained away. Short of God directly announcing himself nothing else would be acceptable to you. Even then you’d probably find some way to deny it. The fact that you feel it an absurdity and you consider faith a crutch is simply the OPINION of someone who has demonstrated on countless occasions the inability to use rational logical thought. So your opinion on the subject is kind of like the village idiot calling something he doesn’t understand stupid. The truth is you do have faith. We only differ on where it’s placed.

There is no more Right and Left lets be serious. The traditional ideals of these parties have been chucked. These front running candidates stand for capitalism and popularity. Sarah Palin was one who tried and failed. They (we) saw her as a loony hockey mom. Sure she stands for woman and mothers and hockey in the USA but give me a break, the small timers don't have a chance. Media biases snuff out the ploy of the weak. The top dogs in Washington all have guns to their heads with Wall Street written all over it. We (America) better all join together sooner then later cause as it stands we are all getting shafted of a democracy.

ravensfan - It is clear that your only goal is to insult, falsely accuse, and generally harass me until I leave your little world. You have used every tactic that you can think of except proving your case in your effort to deny that there are people out here in the real world, who have the right not to view life through your warped and twisted delusional filter. We are here and will not be ignored, or worse, trampled by the absurdities of institutionalized superstitious belief as it tries to dominate our society. There are clear and important reasons why we are a secular state and you, or a mountain of people like you, are not going to take that away. Just get used to it, your gods are not our gods.

Robert – Are you serious? Congratulations you’ve reached a new low. Until now I’d always given your credit form being more intelligent than Clay. I guess I’ll have to re-think that idea. No one on these blogs insults harasses and falsely accuses more than you. In fact it was your obvious blind hate and need to belittle that prompted me to respond to you in the first place. I’ve asked you countless questions to expound on your ideas and position and all I’ve ever gotten in response is insults and put downs. To try and play the victim is the height of hypocrisy. It’s not surprising since you’ve tried just about everything else. When have I ever denied that people don’t have a right to their own views? It was me who actually defended your right to your own. When have you ever reciprocated that for anyone who believes in God? In fact you are the one who called for the end to religion. I also agreed with you on the importance of keeping church and state separate on numerous times. Robert you’re the one doing the trampling and have been from the start. Just as you have a right to your views and expression of them those of us who believe in God have a right to ours and the same rights to express our views and that is what really bothers you isn’t it? I’d suggest you save the persecution complex for someone that would buy into it.

Robert - I'm not sure why my post has Anonymous as the id. But it's mine.
ravensfan

Fake Anonymous (pattycakes perhaps) - I don't care what you personally believe, but if the effect of the whole institution of religion threatens the survivability of Humanity, which can easily be, and has been, illustrated, then it and your part in it must be addressed. You want nothing less than silence from those pointing out this highly potential happenstance, which would entail our tacitly supporting what is being done to us in the name of what clearly is an unsupportable premise, based on institutionalized myth and superstition. If you're determined to drag Human-kind to oblivion, don't expect us to let you do that without putting up a determined fight.

Robert – I can only assume my second post identifying that as my post didn’t make it when you snapped off your reply. You’ve never actually illustrated that it was the institution of religion as opposed to the flaws of human beings that threaten humanity. You merely state it as an established fact as you do with just about everything else. Why exactly is the burden of proof on me and not you? You’re the one making the charge wouldn’t that make the burden of proof on you? The more I read of your posts the more I come to believe you’re the delusional one. You write as though you are the spokesperson for the atheist community. Everything in that last post was nothing more than the nonsensical ranting of a paranoid who convinced himself that religion is the reason for all the worlds’ problems past, present and future.
ravensfan

It is NOT MY FAULT that you do not understand the nature of logic and the rules that govern the burden of proof. The rules exist, (even ask an educated priest if you don't believe me) and those rules state that the person making a positive assertion, bears the burden of proof. Those same rules state that it is impossible to prove a negative assertion (like my often referred to three foot layer of French Brie on the third moon of the fourth planet in the Alpha Proxima star system). You can no more prove that absurd assertion as being not true than the dishonest request to prove the non-existence of a god, or any god. Try it, prove that that the world did not spring from the navel of Vishnu. Again, don't believe me, as a priest with a background in logic.

Robert - You missed or ignored what I was asking for the proof on. I’m well aware of the nature of logic. I dare say far more than you since you’ve made several fallacies over our exchanges. As to my comment on proof it referred to your positive assertion you made.

“the whole institution of religion threatens the survivability of humanity, which can easily be, and has been, illustrated”

You made that assertion and provided nothing in support of it. You forget that the inability to prove something doesn’t make it false. I realize it doesn’t make it true as well. What it means that it could be true or false something even you have reluctantly and grudgingly admitted in the past. After which you usually downplay that fact. That being said the problem with your ridiculous example is there is nothing except your word on the fourth planet. There is support to lend support to the argument for God besides my own word. However, we both know that you’re closed to them and won’t accept them. Therefore I won’t get into them. How can someone whose had the education you claimed sound so ignorant?

Religion, especially the larger ones, have as their stated and end goal (read their, and your, supposed sacred texts) THE END OF THE WORLD. You want proof of the inherent danger of religion, you got it right in the final chapter of your bible. That religion is now attempting to reassert itself as the ruling force in many nations (including ours) and because we now possess the means (nuclear weapons) to aid them in their stated (and highly anticipated by many) goal to bring us to our end, is the nexus of concern that those of us sitting on the sidelines, while you try to breed yourselves into dominance, silence the voices of reason and make delusional superstitionist beliefs our ruling principles. Your greatest fear is that more will become educated to the nature of your ridiculousness and try, hopefully in time, to stop what you would have become with a world we would rather see continue.

Robert – I have and that end you speak of isn’t a goal it’s an event predicted to happen. Scientifically speaking it will happen someday regardless of whether or not you believe in anything beyond life on earth. What religion is trying take control in the US? Those trying to take power in other parts of the world are not following the basic tenets of the faith they claim. Actually if any one is delusional it’s you. You let your irrational paranoid fear run wild. If that was your idea of supporting an assertion then I’m giving you far too much credit for rational thought. That post is right up there with Clay’s nonsense. Where does it say in any the Bible or any Christian text that it is our goal to bring about the end of the world or become the ruling force in civil governments? St Paul was pretty specific about obeying civil authority in his letters. During Christ’s time the Jew were looking at the Messiah as a military leader who would free them from Rome and restore the dominance Israel had under King David. Instead he preached of love of enemies as well as friends. My greatest fear is that extremist bigots like you will succeed in misrepresenting what true Christianity is all about.

Hopefully we can get enough genetic material off this planet before your religions breed us to choking extinction in your competition to out-number each other, so that we will continue, even if any of the forces of ignorance and stupidity (religion will be well represented among them) destroy Human life on Earth. It would be a shame to limit ourselves to having all our eggs in the one fragile basket that is Earth, when there are so many questions out there yet to be answered. My only hope is that among the many of our faults, that religion is one of the ones that we will leave behind us, as we head out for the stars. The meek, as you like to call yourselves, seem determined to inherit a dead world someday, and perhaps you deserve it. There is a race occurring between what you represent and what I represent and reason help us if your side wins that race, for there will be no one left to ask the question, "Why?".

Robert – You represent the forces of ignorance and stupidity quite well. Your paranoid fears of religion are about as comical as the simplicity of Clay’s ridiculous fundamentalist theology. While you and Clay are busy with your race to which fundamentalist view dominates the universe I’m hoping you both cancel each other out and level headed rational thought wins out and human beings learn to respect the rights of our fellow human beings even when our ideas, philosophies and theologies differ.

I know you like to think of yourself as some kind of beacon in the middle between two extremes, but to the rationalist thinker, you and Clay represent the same side of a very worn coin. Its like you and he are two hot steaming bowls, placed before us at the dinner table, one containing cow manure and the other horse manure. It makes very little difference when we are handed a spoon and invited to partake of your fetid feast.

Robert – That was spoken like a true extremist. Sorry if the truth hurts, but you are out on the opposite extreme from Clay. You can deny it if you like, but all your last post does is confirm it. You have no respect or regard for any opinion that differs from your own dogma. You are also totally incapable of making a response that isn’t rude and insult ridden. For someone who proclaims to be a rationalist you use rather emotional responses. A better description of you would be a rationalizing thinker. I’m only a beacon in the middle when compared to extremists like you and Clay.

Robert – I think the term for you is rationalizing thinker. There is now and never has been anything rational or logical in virtually anything you’ve said. Unlike you or Clay I can respect your right to deny God’s existence and Clay’s right to his simplistic theology even though I disagree with both. Why is it you keep talking in the plural? You represent no one but yourself and perhaps Anonymous. One thing you did get right I invite people to my beliefs. Unlike you who would force them. Using your own example your represent a cold bowl of dog manure which you force on the rest of us.

I full well accept that I am at the extreme far end away from Clay's position, which would be very hard to refute. He is in a place that defies understanding. That many of you hold many of his strange beliefs, does not put you in the center, intellectually, just far enough away from logic and reason to be classified as extreme also. It matters not that a majority exists on that far fringe occupied by you and the, by degrees only, more farther out on the lunatic end of the scale of people like Clay, you all carry the same infection. Oh, and ravenstan, your position where you state, "I invite people to my beliefs", sorry, I respectfully decline the invitation to join your hallucination.

Robert – That place defies your understanding only. That hardly makes it extreme or lacking anything. You falsely assume that intellect and rational thought are mutually exclusive from belief in God. That is truly unfortunate and really only reflects your own lack of logic and reason. The majority lie in the center. I’m surprised that someone claiming to be as learned as you wouldn’t know about the bell curve. You and Clay and represent the extreme minority far out on each end, I’m more in the middle slightly to the right of the center closer to Clay than you but not real close to either of you.

Who cares about where you fall in the demographics of people who subscribe to rubbish. As far as I'm concerned, all of you are sitting in a leaky boat in a cesspool, while I'm standing up-wind and definitely in a small group (for now, until we mature enough as a species to unload our delusional baggage) with people who exemplify what we should become, instead of supplicating ourselves before your stinking made-up deities. You represent the left behind portion of our species that hopefully will not be included in the definition of what it means to be Human, when history looks back at what you were foolish enough to want to hang around our collective necks as being the truth.

Robert – I’m well aware that you have no concern for anyone else. Especially those who does not subscribe to your twisted personal views which you attempt represent as being the only rational logical reality. Using your own example you are standing in the boat looking at my leaky boat thinking how much better off you while failing to notice your boat heading for the waterfall. By the time you realize what’s happening it will be too late. What exactly do you exemplify? So far all I’ve seen, besides your rejection of God, is someone representing the worst of human attributes of arrogance, bigotry, intolerance and down right hate. That sure seems like baggage that humanity needs to unload. Hopefully for the good of humanity such intolerance and bigotry will some day leave us as a species.
ravensfan

ravensfan - When religion stops being a threat to the survivability of Humanity, then I will let up on it, but as long as an institution founded in fear, confusion and institutionalized ignorance, pushes itself as the arbiter and end-all of truth, while at the same time breeding us toward oblivion, I will give it all the respect it currently deserves.

Robert – How exactly is religion a threat to survivability of humanity? Yet again you fail to support your claim. You’re like the boy who cried wolf. We are our own threat to survivability of humanity. We humans are a mixture of fear, confusion, arrogance, ignorance, intolerance, bigotry and all the other problems in the world. Laying the blame on religion is nothing more than an attempt to place blame somewhere other than where it truly belongs. You are very good at making accusations, but fail miserably at actually providing even a shred of reasonable support for them. That’s what makes you the opposite extreme form the simple minded theology that Clay expounds. The fact that you set yourself up as the arbiter of what does and doesn’t deserve respect simply proves my point as to where the real threat to survivability lies. As long as you insist on spewing your own version of fear, confusion and ignorance I won’t let up on revealing it for the utter nonsense it is.

ravensfan

ravensfan - I believe I have already covered the threat that religion poses to the world in several posts here over the last few months.

That religions (the major ones) have policies that are engineered to increase their numbers, in a type of breeding contest to out-do each other, in a day and age where we are already unable to utilize our dwindling resources to feed the numbers we already have, is one example of religion's threat to our survival.

That the major religion's have as their end (and for many, a highly anticipated) goal to end the world (read the last chapters of their and your holy sacred texts), is only exacerbated by the fact that religion is now demanding (and getting ) a return to religious controlled states (a concept that has taken 500 years of hard effort to get rid of in the first place), several of which either have nuclear weapons, or are actively trying to get their hands on them. Quite frankly, having nuclear weapons in the hands of moral absolutists, some of whom have shown no restraint in killing their own kind over minor doctrinal differences (Shi'ite and Sunni Muslims for one) is just begging for mushroom clouds over cities of these force's heretical enemies, which could lead to a world ending conflagration, fulfilling any number of end time scenarios. Religion isn't the only force we have to deal with to insure our continued survival, but it sure is one of the stupidest, and as such should be gotten rid of as being the most volatile and meaningless of all the threats.

Robert – Your ad nauseam arguments have never provided any credible support to your outlandish claims. Nothing you said supports any of that nonsense on breeding or goal to end the world nonsense. It discusses the end of the world true, but even the most rational thinking scientists atheist included would concede that sooner or later the world will in fact end. Nowhere does it say it’s a goal. Misinterpreting or in some cases making up things to support your feeble argument.

The concept of religious controlled states seems more common in the Muslim world. Even there I suspect if you study what Islam says and what those so called leaders actually practice and have as an end in mind it probably isn’t consistent with the tenets of their own faith. You also negate or ignore all the positive things that religions have done for humanity. Eliminating religion would do nothing to help the continued survival of humanity. Your claim is about as wrong as saying if we eliminated all guns, knives and other weapons we would have no violence, abuse or murder. In the end we are the cause. Our greed, lust, fear, hate, intolerance, and arrogance are the problems. Even you reluctantly admitted that at once time. Religion is used to rationalize or justify actions yes. However, if you look at what the religion actually says it is in conflict with the actions being attempting to be justified. Your opinion that “should be gotten rid of as being the most volatile and meaningless of all the threats” is completely without merit. It sounds every bit as foolish as some of the nonsense Clay spouts on theology. What needs to be gotten rid of is intolerance, arrogance and bigotry of people such as yourself to assure humanities’ survival.

In the end only it’s your personal belief/opinion that God does not exist, religion is bad and responsible for humanities suffering and therefore should be eliminated. You can say it as many times as you like, but repeating it over and over won’t make it anything more than the personal dogma that it is.

ravensfan - That you are not going to think outside the box (ever), then you are condemned to the limited existence in that box. Our duty is to see that you don't spread your ridiculousness outside that box. Religious belief should be a personal thing, not something you impose, share, or spread by not having it criticized. We, on the rational side of reality have ALWAYS had to defend our position against the criticism of institutionalized superstition, even with our very lives, during times when religionists were killing each other over such foolishness (and still doing so in some places). You are the poster child for rigidity of boneheaded doctrine and only different from Clay by the smallest of margins. I enjoy watching you two duke it out over doctrine, its like watching two hookers fighting over a John.

Robert – My friend the one stuck in the box. You are simply to dim to realize it. You fantasize that somehow you represent the rational side of reality. All you represent is your own irrelevant beliefs and nothing more. It’s really rather sad and delusional that you feel you are speaking for some larger persecuted group. As for defending positions with their lives I’m quite certain far more Christians died for their beliefs than atheists. The difference between us is that while I feel sorry anyone had to suffer for their beliefs regardless of whether they agree with mine; you feel it only for those who would share your views. Christianity has never called for our beliefs to be imposed or forced on anyone. That it has happened is a tragedy, and those who are guilty were/are in violation of the very faith they claimed to be spreading. What you feel I am really means little considering your own bigoted narrow minded views. It’s like having the village idiot call me dumb because I said the world is round. By the way you didn’t actually refute anything I said because even your narrow mind has enough sense to realize you can’t. Instead you use insults to mask your own inability to logically, rationally and intelligently discuss science, philosophy or theology. I wish I could say there is something funny about your posts, but unfortunately there is nothing funny about the ignorance and intolerance you display over and over again. All I can do is pity you.

ravensfan

ravensfan - Perhaps you missed my salute to all the religionists (yours included) who made a sport out of killing each other over who's interpretation of the bible is the correct one in my last post, not to mention all the Jews, Muslims and yes, non-believers in superstition, that were tortured, draw & quartered, hung, burned and boiled in oil, because they just didn't see things just your way.

I have laid out my reasons why religion is not worthy of its position in the modern world (having caused so much suffering in the not so distant past). I have made the case for why religion is not a good basis for societal control. I have shown how their blind denial of the need for population control makes them a huge part of the problem. I have shown how they are now trying to marshal power in nation-states with an eye toward obtaining nuclear weapons and their propensity for violence against "outsiders" that will cause them to use such weapons. Lastly, I have made the case for why the individual is not served well by subscribing to myth and superstition in their personal journey in life. Why then, do you try to mute everything I have shown as if it was some sort of pogrom of hate and lies, when every post I have made can be substantiated by FACT. You just don't want to hear the truth and in the true form of the fanatic religionist, you defend against truth the only way you can now that you are no longer allowed to kill us, you just bully the discussion with falsehoods to back up your beliefs, also falsehoods.

You speak not of "religionists" but of FANATICS and LUNATICS.

These people would be better off not "believing" in a "religion" because they do nothing good to others or themselves. You are spot-on Robert. But you fail to use simple math when making these statements.

If all of religion was bad and breed these idiots, we would have blown the world back to the stone age by now. Since more then 80% of PRACTICING religious believers are actually contributing to the common good of the race, your statements hold no value. You are angry at something. I don't blame you. I'm in the boat with you as is ravensfan and the others. We are should be addressing the issues you raise just as much as you. Unfortunately your war is not against the small minority of CRAZIES, but against the established institution of religion because you see it as the root of all evil.

HUMAN NATURE when not in check is the root of all evil my friend. This is the very reason for ESTABLISHED RELIGION. How ironic is that?

Superstitional delusionalism (religion) is the agar dish in which fanaticism is nourished and from which it spreads. The first law for getting rid of the rats in a dump, is to get rid of the dump. Religion has outlived its usefulness and we are long past the time when we should have ridden ourselves of it. Grow up.

Robert – I missed nothing again it’s you who either miss or choose to ignore the point that those who did such things were not following what their faith called for them to do. The message isn’t bad or wrong because of bad messengers. You have yet to prove that religion was responsible for anything.

I don’t ever recall advocating any religion as the basis of societal control. Adherence to the beliefs is up to the individual. No faith makes any denial of population control that I’m aware of. Where they may differ from you is how to do it. You’ve have actually given NO examples of any religion trying to “marshal power in nation-states with an eye toward obtaining nuclear weapons”. You’ve said the phrase before. The question is if those states are actually doing it because their faith commands or because they personally seek power. That’s a point you never address. When you prove that it’s required for that faith I’ll concede it for that faith you prove it against. Until then I’ll treat it for what it is a paranoid delusion.

In the end you have provided NO facts to back up anything you’ve ever said. I’ve given you plenty of chances and practically begged you to and what I got in return was insults and name calling. Your dedication to your bare assertion fallacy is really sad. You’re sound like someone who’s deluded himself that he represents some martyred group. I hate to break it to you but you don’t. As far as bullying that would be you. I’ve never once attempted to silence you and in fact have defended you right to post your nonsense. The one preaching the message of silencing and elimination is you. If you like I’ll go back and quote some of your old posts for you. What’s truly sad is that you actually believe that rubbish. I tell you what next post instead of talking about all these facts you’ve claimed to present try actually presenting some facts for me to address Until then all I can do is treat you like the raving paranoid post like.

It doesn't matter, unless someone presents you with your made-up god, dead on a platter (and even then), you are not going to give an inch to any argument that doesn't totally validate your ridiculous beliefs. Your belief that if you can just outlast your opponent, sling enough unfounded charges, summon up legions of the deluded, quote a history of delusion, while ignoring the evil done by religion (remember the Crusades and the Inquisition, not to mention all the infallible pope inspired witch butcheries) and you are the one who should be on the defensive. I have just stated the case that it is no sin to state "I DON'T KNOW YET" when faced with explaining reality and that institutions that attempt to do so based on myth and superstition are best not in positions where they can influence policy that affects everyone, or anyone for that matter. If any and all criticism of religion is to be classified by you as hate, then I am guilty as charged and will proudly continue the effort. I stand on my observations and the validity of my extrapolations, which are based solely on the past behavior of those who think the way you do and the propensity for such behavior to repeat itself, much like the ranting posts you keep flinging back at me in reply. You really have to stop confusing seizing the high ground with your habit of claiming to do so while standing in a cesspool.

Robert – I never denied that people had committed great wrongs and inflicted sufferings claiming it for religious reasons. What I said is those who did, including all you just mentioned, were in fact in violation of the very faith they professed. Nothing you have said actually refutes that point. In fact you seem to ignore that every time and cling to your own biased dogma. I’m not on the defensive because I know I’m in the right. You can’t show me where Christians are called to do the kinds of evils you speak of because there is no place. What unfound charge did I sling? I said you can’t back up what you’ve said and so far you haven’t. I also asked you many questions about your assertions and you NEVER respond. I never said there was anything wrong with saying “I DON”T KNOW YET”. All I did was question if you don’t yet how you can state with absolute certainty God doesn’t exist. I never called for any faith to influence public policy based on that faith and challenge you to show where I did. Keep in mind out in our abortion debate I conceded that if science could someday prove where life began abortion should be legal up to that point despite the fact my faith would probably still consider it sinful. Criticism of religion isn’t in and of itself hate, but your posts go well beyond that. That’s why they are hateful. You were the one who said people who believed in God didn’t deserve to be treated with respect. I don’t think you’ve managed one post without belittling, insulting or otherwise trashing either the author or their beliefs yet. For someone who doesn’t know yet you sure seem to post as if you do. The problem with your extrapolations is that they’re based on flawed ideas of the causes of the behavior that created the past wrongs. I never claimed to be any high ground, however id you smell a cesspool you may want to check where you are standing.

ravensfan - Trying to divorce your religion from the people who are its practitioners because they do evil deeds, is not a valid argument unless you purge these elements from religion to leave the good behind. I'm not buying your argument because like every argument you make, the exception becomes the rule.

As to your big question that you say I never answered, you must have a very short memory. I stated emphatically that there is a chance that a god creature could exist and that it may very well be responsible for our existence, but that the odds are so incredibly slim that the possibility is a very long-shot at the best. It is certainly NOT worthy of the devotion that you give it based on your excuse for ignorance called Faith, and it surely should not have any power over those who do not share your belief in such slight odds being true, (forcing women to breed against their will comes to mind). When speaking of religion and the religious, I don't believe that the entire span of god concepts is worthy of respect. That you demand I show people who believe such monumentally improbable tripe with respect, then you are asking for a measure of respect that is not deserved.

Robert – It would seem you’ve now invented your own standard for determining validity of an argument. First since the elements are part of the religion why would they need to be purged? If a religion says you can’t steal and you do who is to blame the person or the religion? If the person doing the stealing says they did it for God does that make the religion the problem? Apply that same idea to murder, lying, coveting others things and so on. It’s not the exception but the rule the argument is completely valid. The fact that you don’t like or can’t come up with a logical rebuttal doesn’t make it invalid. You see it as invalid because you are predisposed to the idea that religion is nonsense and evil. That’s why you can’t see the logic.

There’s nothing wrong with my memory. You did make that statement, but then post countless times as if there is no way for God to exist. I totally agree that my faith should hold no power over you or anyone else who chooses not to accept it. How exactly does my faith force women to breed against their will? Being against abortion doesn’t force anyone to do anything. What it forces, and only those who accept that faith, is to live with the consequences of a CHOICE made. Why do you use the word breeding so much? Does it make you feel less guilty about the idea of terminating life? As for your respect comment it is exactly that view that proves my point about your intolerance. The fact you feel you have the power to determine who is or isn’t deserving of respect is the height of arrogance and ignorance.

I think Sarah Palin could well be the anti-christ!

So Sarah Palin chose a co-author who points out things above that pretty much no one can deny but look how crazy they sound and how far off the deep end both her and her co-author are? Sounds kind of slanted, and I dont mean Sarah Palin and her co-author. I dont believe that the American people want a woman as president or vice president, and I dont believe that the next Republican candidate, (probably Romney) who has a real good chance of winning, should choose one. Sarah Palin doesnt have the political experience needed. I also dont believe that Mr. Romney should choose a black man just to choose a black man. If he chooses a black man, let it be one who is on fire for God, the opposite of the man in office now. Mr. Romney also needs to be on fire for God, something he lacks with his support of a woman's right to choose abortion. However, most people in this country really dont care that much about abortion unfortunately. This and his support for a government run health care system will actually help him pull in votes from the other side. Of course, conservatives will vote for him because he is the lesser of the two evils and they will attempt to convince themselves that his being a Mormon is better that what we have now. He looks good and smart on tv and is a good debater. Guess who is our next president? I wonder if he would give me a job in D.C? I would love to get on tv and tell people how they need to be saved. Unfortunately, he would probably look at that as being too extreme. Oh well, I guess it will be better than what we have now.

Clay your willingness to intermix religion and politics is neither biblical nor what the founding fathers intended when the nation was founded. You seem to be quite willing to cast judgment on the current President's religious views despite Christ's teaching not to judge others. Your need to mention gender and race could lead some to wonder if you are prejudice as well. It’s not my pace to judge you on that issue. I’m just pointing out how it could be inferred in your post. I wouldn’t plan for a Romney administration just yet either if I were you.

Actually I would accept vice president. It would have to be better than what what mentioned on his website about his wife running. My comment about a black man running with him is simple. We shouldnt pick someone because of the color of their skin. He shouldnt feel that he has to look like he is being politically correct. He should pick the best Christian man with the political experience, regardless of their race. Remember, God isnt impressed with country and what anyone intended (although there are so many comments from the founding fathers about their love for God it isnt funny). He is impressed by what is in our heart for Him. How about Department of Christian Education?

Clay while many of the founding fathers were men of faith they also had first had experience of the dangers of mixing religion and government. God also isn’t interested in setting up Christian governments. The selection should be the best person regardless of their religion. It’s that very comment “God isn’t impressed with country” that demonstrates the error with limiting selection to a Christian man. God is impressed by what is in our heart for Him which is why there is no need to mix faith with politics. What is needed is someone who while practicing their own faith will respect the rights of all including Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddist and any other religion as well as atheist and agnostics.

If God wants us all to do our jobs the best we can for Him then that would include all in government jobs. If He wants us to all be Christians then any government would automatically be Christian, even if He doesnt see it as necessary. Thanks.

A government can't be "Christian" Clay. Only humans can have faith beliefs.

If I worked for NSA or in defense intelligence I think I would prefer to hire a new citizen from the middle east with expertise in Farsi, Arabic, Pashto, Dari, and Baluchi. These linguistic capabilities are rarely found among the Methodists.

Which is why Atticus would not play football for them.

Clay a bit arrogant to presume what God wants don't you think. I don't seem to remember St Paul or any of the apostles telling the early Christians to be concerned with making the governments of their respective nations Christian.